1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World, Stanford Medicine researchers have 2 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: discovered that the plant based psychoactive drug ibogain, when combined 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: with magnesium to protect the heart, safely and effectively, reduced 4 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: post traumatic stress disorder, anxiety and depression, and improved functioning 5 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: in veterans with traumatic brain injury. Their study was published 6 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 1: in the journal Nature Medicine on January fifth, twenty twenty four, 7 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: and was the first to include detailed data on thirty 8 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: veterans of US Special Forces who had undergone supervised ibogain 9 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: treatments one month after treatment. Participants experienced average reductions of 10 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: eighty eight percent and PTSD symptoms, eighty seven percent in 11 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: depression symptoms, and eighty one percent in anxiety symptoms. Formal 12 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: cognitive testing also revealed improvements in participants concentration, information processing, memory, 13 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: and impulsivity. Here to discuss the Stanford study on IVA Gain, 14 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, doctor Nolan Williams. 15 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,919 Speaker 1: He is an Associate Professor of psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences 16 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: at Stanford University and director of the Stanford Brain Stimulation Lab. Doctor. 17 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: Welcome and thank you for joining me in News world. 18 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm excited to be here and really excited to 19 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 2: talk about the work we're doing well. 20 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: I just had W Bryan Hubbard on the podcast on Sunday, 21 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: and our conversation really convinced me Iva Gain treatments have 22 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: great potential, but I want to hear from someone who 23 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: has studied the science. So I'm thrilled you would join 24 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: me today as the director of the Stanford Brain Stimulation 25 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: Lab and an Associate Professor of psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences. 26 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: Can you tell us more about the focus of your 27 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: work at Stanford? How did you get involved with doing 28 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: the study in Eyba game. 29 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,119 Speaker 2: So I'm trained as both a psychiatrist and a neurologist. 30 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 2: I did that in Charleston, South Carolina, and then came 31 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 2: out to Stanford a little more than eleven years ago 32 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 2: with the goal of developing treatments for problems where the 33 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 2: current treatments aren't very good, they have a lot of 34 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 2: side effects, or in conditions where there aren't currently available treatments, right, 35 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 2: and so that's kind of our mandate. I have a 36 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 2: big group that works on that, forty plus people in 37 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 2: my lab, a bunch of junior faculty, and really what 38 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 2: we're trying to do is to find solutions for hard 39 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 2: to treat problems. And so we've developed into a stimulation 40 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,679 Speaker 2: approach for treatment resistant depression that can get people out 41 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: of severe depression in a couple of days, gotten that 42 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 2: through the FDA, gotten at to a point where now 43 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 2: Medicare Innovation Funds pay for it. First psychiatric treatment ever 44 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 2: to have that happen. And so we were working on 45 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: that work since twenty fourteen, and then around twenty eighteen, 46 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: I was approached by Amber Marcus Capone. Marcus is a 47 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 2: former seal who went down to Mexico and took this 48 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 2: alkaloid from an African shrub. So it's the root bark 49 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: extract of that shrub called the Iboga shrub in Gabon, 50 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 2: which is in central West Africa. You know, I'd been 51 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: around for some time and thought to be a potential 52 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: anti addiction compound, but hadn't really been studied for much 53 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 2: of anything else. And you know, the way he tells 54 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 2: the story, he couldn't screw a light into a light 55 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: fixture when he left to go to Mexico and looked 56 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 2: like quite a normal guy when I met him after 57 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: he'd come back and had been doing well for a 58 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 2: while and told me his story, and his wife told 59 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 2: me the story, and it was a very convincing story. 60 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 2: And I've learned over the years to really listen to 61 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 2: patients and listen to their stories and have that kind 62 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 2: of guide the work that we do. And so we 63 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: decided with some philanthropic funds that we were going to 64 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 2: go and conduct a trial around this, which at the 65 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 2: time was a little bit edgy, right. We had to 66 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: go to the Stanford Institutional Review Board, which is the 67 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 2: research panel that evaluates research protocols, and make a compelling 68 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 2: case that we were going to knowingly study something where 69 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: the veterans were knowingly going to go down and take 70 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 2: a compound that's currently illegal in the US but not 71 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 2: illegal in Mexico, Canada, Australia, New Zealand other European countries 72 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 2: and basically evaluate them before after, and then a month after, 73 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,799 Speaker 2: and then we kept evaluating them out to a year 74 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 2: of that data coming out shortly and what we found 75 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 2: was quite remarkable. People had a transformative improvement. Their post 76 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 2: traumatic stresses sort of depression, anxiety, all got better. But 77 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 2: what was really striking is there from traumatic brain injury 78 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: it took a little while longer. It took out to 79 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 2: the months to get them to a point where you 80 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 2: saw a reversal of a lot of that disability. But 81 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 2: you know, going back to what I said originally finding 82 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 2: treatments where there's no treatment available. There's no drug available 83 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 2: for traumatic brain injury. People call that a permanent neurological injury, 84 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 2: and permanent meaning that there hasn't been anything to date 85 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 2: that's able to reverse it. And what we found was 86 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: a really striking reversal and basically nearly everyone at the 87 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 2: one month mark and their levels of disability. And so 88 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 2: what's so fascinating about this drug is that it seems 89 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 2: to be capable of potentially having neural repair effects. And 90 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 2: that's unique. That's not something that we've seen much of before, 91 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 2: and why I think people are so excited about the possibilities. 92 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: Do you have any sense of the science of why 93 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: it's having this repair effect? 94 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. I'm going to give some background. 95 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 2: Now you may know that some of your listeners may 96 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:07,239 Speaker 2: know it, but just to kind of get levels, setting 97 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 2: everybody on the same page. And so if a six 98 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 2: month old baby has a neurological injury or has brain 99 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 2: surgery for intractable epilepsy, and they lose one half of 100 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: their brain, one hemisphere of their brain, they can actually 101 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:29,559 Speaker 2: adapt and the other hemisphere can take over a lot 102 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 2: or all of the functions, right, And we call that 103 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 2: the critical period. And so there's a critical period where 104 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 2: the brain can really redesignate function, and that critical period 105 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 2: closes in everyone. Right in adulthood, we don't have that. 106 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:47,919 Speaker 2: So if you speaker, or I had a big stroke 107 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 2: right now and it hit one hemisphere or our brain, 108 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 2: we would lose a lot of functions. It'd be very 109 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 2: hard to reassign function, right, But in that baby example, 110 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 2: you could. And so one of the big curiosities of 111 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 2: human neuroscience has been is there a way to develop 112 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 2: a drug that could re establish that critical period, right, 113 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 2: even transiently, they would allow for you to reassign brain 114 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 2: function in the case of brain damage. And so there's 115 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 2: work out of Hopkins and Berkeley suggesting and a lot 116 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 2: of work to confirm this that in fact, these compounds 117 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 2: actually will produce a transient critical period window where functions 118 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 2: could be reassigned where the brain is highly plastic, and 119 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 2: that is one of the ideas of what's going on. 120 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 2: Another idea that's likely related, but just a different way 121 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 2: of thinking about it, is this is a highly neurotrophic drug, 122 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: so it produces really high kind of plasticity states. 123 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: Let me slay it down for second. What is neurotropic. 124 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: So basically there's kind of growth promoting factors in the 125 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 2: brain that are really present early on and then they 126 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 2: kind of wane over time, and so glial derived neurotrophic 127 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: factor gets upregulated by I begain and that's pretty specific 128 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: to I begin. All the other psychedelic compounds seem to 129 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 2: have an effect on brain derived neurotrophic factor at a 130 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 2: scale that orders the magnitude more than conventional oral antidepressants. 131 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 2: And these are really plasticity kind of agents, right, They 132 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: make the brain again more malleable, and that's really what 133 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 2: you want. You know, if the brain's very fixed in 134 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 2: its function, it can't reassign function. It's very hard. I 135 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 2: don't know if you remember back in the nineties you 136 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 2: had to defrag your computer. You remember that absolutely, Yeah, 137 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 2: what you were kind of doing is reassigning function of 138 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 2: those memory units, right, So this is something like that, Right. 139 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 2: It allows for you to reassign function in a different way. 140 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 2: That's really what we think is going on at the 141 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 2: brain level, and then there's this whole kind of psychological 142 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 2: function level that also happens. And so what the veterans 143 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 2: will tell you is it's not like other psychedelic compounds 144 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 2: or other psychoactive compounds, where you may have external things 145 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 2: that you're seeing or whatever. What people typically talk about, 146 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 2: and a lot of the veterans will say this is 147 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 2: that the drug produced as a state where they actually 148 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 2: observe earlier life emotionally salient memories in the case of say, 149 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 2: wartime trauma, earlier memories of wartime events that they've had 150 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 2: a hard time letting go, and it allows them to 151 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 2: finally kind of let it go. And I think that's 152 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,839 Speaker 2: an important kind of psych coological function for folks to 153 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: understand that really these things kind of get stuck in 154 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 2: people's memory systems and kind of really, you know, in 155 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 2: many ways, mess up their ability to have normal function. 156 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 2: Because if you were shot at so many times, then 157 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 2: you know, you're walking down the street and somebody's car 158 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 2: makes the noise or something, you're behind the mailbox thinking 159 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 2: that there's some enemy or something as You're kind of 160 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 2: transported back to that war experience, right, And that's what 161 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 2: people with wartime PTSD are living with all the time, right. 162 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 2: And so what this drug does psychologically is it allows 163 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 2: the person to go back and look at those events 164 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 2: and kind of let them go and have the brain 165 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: kind of not see them as so important to bring 166 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 2: back up. And that's important because when they walk out 167 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: of this experience, their life isn't controlled by those events anymore. 168 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 2: And that's really why we think the PTSD, the post 169 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 2: traumatic stress disorder see to get better. 170 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: The percentages that you were showing after a one month 171 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 1: of treatment are pretty staggering. 172 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 2: They're really staggering. Yeah. I tell people that my postdoc 173 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 2: showed me those percentages and I didn't believe them at 174 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 2: first and told him that he must have made a 175 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 2: calculation error, you know. And so, you know, one of 176 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 2: those times where it was great to be wrong, you know, 177 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 2: he came back a month later and it was all right, 178 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 2: and I was wrong and the numbers were right. 179 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: So I know that you had very very good results 180 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: in the first month, but did you do a follow 181 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: up and what was the effect a year later? 182 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 2: So we continue to follow folks out to a year. 183 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 2: We wanted to publish the one month data to get 184 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 2: it out there. There's always an urgency, and so we 185 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 2: were still following folks out to the year at that point, 186 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 2: and so we followed people at the year where that 187 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 2: data's in review now, and almost all the folks that 188 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 2: were looking good at one month but one month held 189 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 2: it out to a year off of a single dose. 190 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 2: And I think that's really important because if you've got 191 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 2: a drug where there's some cardiac rist and people have 192 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 2: to be monitored and it works, you get to go 193 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 2: in once a month to do it, that would be complicated, right, 194 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 2: But if you've got to go in once a year, 195 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 2: once every couple of years, maybe never again, depending upon 196 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 2: the problem, then that all of a sudden becomes really 197 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: quite compelling. And that's what we observe that most people 198 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 2: did end up holding it out to a year, and 199 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 2: there are very few compounds that anybody's observed that can 200 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: do that. 201 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: And I yeah that it may also have an addition 202 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: to traumatic brain injury. There may be other aspects, for 203 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: example of being a drug addict, where hypo gain may 204 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: actually dramatically shorten the healing time to enable people to 205 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: move beyond their addiction. I mean, have you looked at 206 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: any of that or is that a different zone. 207 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 2: No, we've looked at that. So we've looked at trying 208 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 2: to treat alcohol use disorders or alcoholism, and we've seen 209 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 2: great effects with alcohol use disorder in people. They were 210 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 2: pretty heavy drinkers, and that data's going to come out soon. 211 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 2: A lot of them stop drinking, a lot of them 212 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: really significantly reduced their drinking. And what people will say, 213 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 2: which is also kind of interesting psychologically, is after this happens, 214 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 2: after they go through all this and it's a couple 215 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 2: weeks out, it re establishes the ability to have kind 216 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: of unbiased choice, right, Like, I don't know, are you 217 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 2: a coffee drinker or you gum to or anything speaker. 218 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 2: A lot of us to drink coffee, you know, maybe 219 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,839 Speaker 2: we feel highly compelled every morning to drink the coffee. 220 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 2: And it's still a choice, but you're biased towards drinking it, right, 221 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 2: Your brain is kind of more biased to do it 222 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 2: than not do it. That's true for me, maybe true 223 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 2: for you. Most people are coffee drinkers have that experience. 224 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 2: What happens with these guys in the case of whether 225 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: it's alcohol or drug, uses are highly biased towards using it. 226 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: You know, in some cases they cannot use it, but 227 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 2: the probability that they're not going to use it's truly 228 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 2: low because their brain's so biased to use it. And 229 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: so what they'll say is that when they get out 230 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 2: of this, it feels like a completely neutral choice. They 231 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 2: get presented with alcohol and they say, you know what, 232 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 2: I'd rather just go take a job, or I'd rather 233 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 2: go spend some time with my kids, or I'd rather 234 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: go and drink a diet coke or whatever, you know. 235 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: And that's what's so interesting about this is it allows 236 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 2: people to have that choice, and when you give people 237 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 2: that choice, they tend to take the choice that's actually 238 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 2: a much more healthy one. And so what's really interesting 239 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 2: is most of the guys that did this, in addition 240 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 2: to stopping drinking alcohol, that actually we found they stopped 241 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 2: drinking caffeine drinks, They stop doing a lot of things, 242 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 2: and they just kind of did the sorts of things 243 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 2: that they kind of wanted to do, and so it 244 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 2: really unbiases people's decision making. 245 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: When you were doing your study, you were very aware 246 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: of the potential danger of cardiac problems. And as I 247 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: understand it, the ibogain was administered in combination with magnesium. 248 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: Now why magnesium and why does that reduce the cardiac risk? 249 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. So if you go into 250 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 2: the American Heart Association guidelines for something called torsades, which 251 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 2: is this fatal arrhythmia that can be the result of 252 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 2: a lot of things. Drugs that are approved by the FDA, 253 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 2: like a drug called tikasin, and there's also chemo agents 254 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 2: that can interact to this herd potassium channel, and I 255 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 2: begain interacts with this herd potassium channel, so they all 256 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 2: do it. Tikosan, for instance, is monitored in a cardiac 257 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: monitoring unit because of this. And so you go in 258 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 2: the American Heart Association guidelines for treating torsodes, what you 259 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 2: see is that the American Heart Association recommends to give 260 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 2: magnesium in the case of torsades once you already have it. 261 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 2: And magnesium is not completely without risk, but it's pretty 262 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 2: low risk. Like as a neurologist, I gave magnesium to 263 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 2: people of various headache conditions in the er, women that 264 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 2: are preeclamptic at magnesium and that kind of period peri childbirth, 265 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 2: and so giving magnesium at these levels, you know, has 266 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 2: some minor minor risk, but really is pretty safe. We 267 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 2: know a lot about it, and so there was this 268 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 2: view that we took on around that if you can 269 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 2: treat the problem with magnesium, then you probably can prophylacts 270 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 2: against it ever happening with giving magnesium before the person 271 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 2: got the drug, and we thought that was a kind 272 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 2: of a unique kind of strategy, right where we're going 273 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 2: to give magnesium before you get the drug and then 274 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 2: we think significantly lower your risk of that arrhythmia. And 275 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 2: we didn't see any torsades in any of our samples, 276 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 2: and we think we have some early data to suggest 277 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 2: that that may be the ticket for dealing with that 278 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 2: particular risk. Now it's an interesting problem, right because, as 279 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 2: I said a minute ago, the FDA has already approved 280 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 2: drugs that actually have more risk for this arrhythmia than 281 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 2: I begame does, but ibans had a harder time getting 282 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 2: through the FDA. And the reason I think that that 283 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 2: has historically happened, although this FDA seems to have a 284 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 2: different kind of positive stance on it, is the risk 285 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 2: benefit assessment of a cardiac drug that also has a 286 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 2: cardiac risk ends up being different than an addiction drug 287 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 2: that has a cardiac risk. And I think that the 288 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 2: veteran's story is an important one for really pushing the 289 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: FDA and the government in the field and to seeing, okay, 290 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 2: veterans are killing themselves every year than are dying on 291 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 2: the battlefield. 292 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 1: It seems to me that one of the and I'm 293 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 1: hoping this is going to change, but that historically one 294 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 1: of the FDA problems has been that they measure the 295 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: cost of saying yes, but they don't measure the cost 296 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,360 Speaker 1: of saying no. You know, there are people out here 297 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: committing suicide, and this has a reasonable chance of minimizing that. 298 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: You have to figure out what are the total lives 299 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: saved annually versus what's the risk And I don't think 300 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: the FDA has any kind of measurement. It's all based 301 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: on risk only on the usage side, not based on 302 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: the cost of not doing it. 303 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 2: One hundred percent, You're completely spot on the the risk 304 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 2: is only evaluated in the yes position, not in the 305 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 2: no position. And maybe that's a regulatory change that could 306 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 2: be seen where there was an additional evaluation point on 307 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 2: saying no. From the standpoint of the FDA, but absolutely, 308 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 2: and that's what hurdles you have to kind of get over. 309 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 2: And to your point, whether it be veterans suicide or 310 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 2: opioid overdoses, this is a drug that can actually decrease 311 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 2: the symptoms of detox for opiates right and reduce people's 312 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 2: discomforting going through opia detoks in addition of reducing craving, 313 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 2: the opioid crisis, the veterans suicide crisis. We think this 314 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 2: has great potential for doing that. And the hope is 315 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 2: is that there is a bias and it appears to 316 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 2: be going away around taking on some of this risk 317 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 2: and more of an openness in this FDA around evaluating 318 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 2: in that more holistic way. And so you know, our 319 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 2: fingers are crossed. You know, we have an I ind 320 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 2: and trying to see if the FDA will let us 321 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 2: do our first phase one trial now, and we're optimistic 322 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 2: we can get over that hurdle. 323 00:19:55,680 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: What percent of the folks who got that dosage never 324 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 1: had any more interest in suicide and what percent found 325 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: that they were still depression and in a mode to 326 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: potentially commit suicide? 327 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, greater than eighty plus percent 328 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 2: of people lost their kind of suicidal thinking and they 329 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 2: held that out through the end of the year. We 330 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 2: had no one in our follow up that actually had 331 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 2: a suicide attempt or died of suicide. In the few 332 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 2: folks that didn't hold it or had a transient improvement, 333 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 2: we're hoping there are other either dozing strategies or other 334 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 2: technologies that can take care of those folks. But just 335 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 2: as a contrast the current treatments that are out there 336 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 2: for PTSD and depression and whatnot, you're talking about at 337 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 2: best twenty percent sort of numbers. It goes down over 338 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: time to really take care of these problems, and then 339 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 2: it's not very fast. In contrast, this is kind of 340 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 2: a striking number, But you know, we have more work 341 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 2: to do to really fully answer that question in hundreds 342 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 2: of people and have conclusive kind of final FDA level data. 343 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 2: But the signal that we have now is that it 344 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 2: really holds for a while and reduces that risk for 345 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 2: a long time. 346 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 1: So there could be a spectrum effect where some people 347 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: once is enough for their lifetime and other people need 348 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: to come back in three months or six months. 349 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 2: That's kind of what we're seeing, is that a lot 350 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 2: of veterans will tell me they'll go back once a 351 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 2: year kind of thing for a couple of years, and 352 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 2: then they don't need to do it anymore. There may 353 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 2: be a few folks, to your point, that need to 354 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 2: come back more frequently, but the bulk of folks tend 355 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 2: to hold it to a year, which is great. 356 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: Your participants actually went to a clinic in Baja California 357 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: run by Ambio Life Sciences. What is Ambio Life Sciences. 358 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 2: There's a number of I Begain clinics that exist outside 359 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 2: of the US, so Ambo is one of them. There 360 00:21:55,320 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 2: are others that's specialized in administering I begain. Because I 361 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 2: Began doesn't hold an illegal status in Mexico, you know, 362 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 2: it can be administered as a medical treatment in Mexico. Historically, 363 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 2: that's been true for Canada, it's true for Australia and 364 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 2: New Zealand and I think half of the European countries. Right, 365 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 2: the definition of a controlled substance requires that there's an 366 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 2: abuse liability risk, and that's an important part of understanding 367 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 2: I Began is that there's not a single case report 368 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 2: in the literature of anybody with an I Began adviction, 369 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 2: right and that's really important to understand is that this 370 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 2: drug itself. You don't start taking this and stop taking 371 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 2: another drug. But when you start taking this, now, all 372 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: of a sudden, you have a new addiction. Right, That's 373 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 2: not what this does. Like you take this. Once people 374 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 2: get off of the compound, they don't really tend to 375 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 2: take I began again. It's not that pleasurable to do so. 376 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 2: And so because of that, you've got scenarios where people 377 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 2: will come into clinics in Mexico or wherever it is, 378 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 2: do a single administration I began, get off of opiates 379 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 2: or better from their PTSD or whatever it is, and 380 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: go back home. And our data that we haven't published 381 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 2: yet we've published SIN shows that they get a year 382 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 2: of benefit from a single dose. And so people typically 383 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 2: for Ambia will fly into San Diego, take a van 384 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 2: to Tijuana, go to a nice kind of treatment facility 385 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 2: there and get treated and go back to San Diego. 386 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 2: So Brett Favre, the NFL player, as I understand it, 387 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 2: just did this and has come out and said publicly 388 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 2: that he's had this experience. And so there's a number 389 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 2: of people that have gone down and done this sort 390 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 2: of trip. The real tragedy. I think of all of 391 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 2: this is just that we have these veterans. So we're 392 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 2: trying to rectify that by having at least studies and 393 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 2: hopefully eventually treatment if everything works out and the studies 394 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 2: are positive. In the US, do you have. 395 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 1: Any sense from Congress of a willingness to put pressure 396 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: on the FDA about this. 397 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 2: I've met with a number of people, some of whom 398 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 2: are currently sitting Congressmen, many of whom are Republican House 399 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 2: representative members in Texas for instance, who are very supportive 400 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 2: of this, as well as former folks, and I think 401 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 2: there's definitely support. What I've heard, and you know better 402 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 2: than anybody around this question is like modifying the Controlled 403 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 2: Substances Act. It's going to be very hard to do. 404 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 2: And part of what has to happen, because it's a 405 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 2: DEA issue, is around how do you get to somebody 406 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 2: like Pambondi and have the conversation around downscheduling these compounds right, 407 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 2: Because there's an approval process that has to happen, there's 408 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 2: also a downscheduling process that has to happen because as 409 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 2: it stands right now, I began as a schedule one 410 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 2: substance like all the other psychedelics, and as you know, 411 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 2: the definition of that is abuse liability, which isn't true 412 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 2: no medicinal u use. And so in order for it 413 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 2: to become a treatment, it has to be down scheduled 414 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: off of one, so that we're now saying this does 415 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 2: have medicinal use. As you know, even cocaine is an 416 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 2: unscheduled one. Cocaine's considered schedule two because the dentists will 417 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,199 Speaker 2: use it the nts, and so I began sits like 418 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 2: a more restricted status than cocaine. 419 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: I think your study is going to be a major 420 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: step towards people like Secretary Kennedy putting real pressure to 421 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: make it available in this country. Let me ask you 422 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: one of the questions about the risk side. When you 423 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: think about the number of people who might be helped 424 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 1: by hypergain, how serious, in your judgment, is the cardiac challenge, 425 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: and to what degree does the magnesium eliminate or minimize 426 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 1: that risk. 427 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 2: I'm not aware of anybody that's had full blown torsades 428 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 2: when they got prophylactic magnesium. I'm always asking, but that 429 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 2: seems to be something that really risk mitigates. When I 430 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 2: went to the head of cardiac electric physiology at Stanford 431 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: and others, and people that ran that in the University 432 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 2: of Colorado and others. What they told me is they said, hey, look, 433 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 2: we have this drug, Tikisan, we use it all the time. 434 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 2: It's got more risks than I begain. We give it 435 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 2: in a cardiac monitoring unit. A lot of these deaths 436 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 2: that happened in these arrhythm as, it happened early twenty 437 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 2: years ago and whatnot. It all happened when people were 438 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 2: getting this administered to them in hotel rooms, you know, 439 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 2: in various places because people are really addicted. There wasn't 440 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 2: another way to do this. You couldn't get it in 441 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 2: the US. This is the only way to kind of 442 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 2: get off of heroin or whatever it was. So they 443 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 2: were willing to take that risk. But the reality is 444 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 2: is that we're not going to be doing that in 445 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 2: the US, right We're going to be giving this in 446 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 2: a cardiac monitoring unit, and we're going to have a 447 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 2: lot of tools on our tool belt, just like cardiologists 448 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 2: do for tikasan to be able to deal with it. 449 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 2: And because of that, it's really not any more of 450 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 2: a risk than the FDA approved drugs for cardiac rhythmias, 451 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 2: and the cardiologists would be heavily involved in these administrations. 452 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,120 Speaker 2: When you talk to them about it, they're like, yeah, 453 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 2: you know, there's a risk, but you know, we would 454 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 2: just put people in our unit and we would monitor 455 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 2: and manage the risk. And we needed to do something, 456 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 2: we would do something about it, you know. And so 457 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 2: I think it's about medicalizing this and within a legitimate 458 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 2: medical setting and really thinking about this as a medical 459 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 2: intervention within the US healthcare system. And if you think 460 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 2: in those terms, and we get to that point, and 461 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 2: I think it's a consideration when you're talking to a patient, 462 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 2: and it's always a consideration as the doctor, but it's 463 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 2: the like healthcare policy level. It shouldn't be something that 464 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 2: gets in the way. Does that make sense? 465 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: If EYB again turns out to have the variety of 466 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: capabilities that we have some at least glimmerings of its 467 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: effect both on the quality of life, the relative health 468 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: of patients, and the fiscal impact is going to be staggering. 469 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 1: This could be one of the great breakthroughs of the 470 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: next ten or fifteen years. 471 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 2: That's what we feel. I mean, I don't think, you know, 472 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 2: I've said this publicly before. I'm not aware of a 473 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 2: brain acting compound that is this sophisticated or this broad spectrum. 474 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 2: And you know, you think about antibiotics and you have 475 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 2: these broad spectrum antibiotics that can take care of all 476 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 2: sorts of different bacteria or whatever. I mean, this is 477 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 2: a really broad spectrum. The data that we have right 478 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 2: now suggests it's a really broad brain drug, kind of 479 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 2: brain plasticity drug. 480 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: Let me go back for a second because it hit me. 481 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: Governor Habit of Texas signed a law just in June 482 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: of this year, June eleventh of twenty twenty five to 483 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: establish serious clinical trials to what excent are they going 484 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: to be hampered by? The degree to which I begin 485 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: is currently a Schedule one status. 486 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 2: You can do Schedule one studies in the US right now. 487 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 2: There have been a number of them with other psychedelics 488 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: like psilocybin and whatnot, and so there's a lot of hurles. 489 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 2: You have to have a safe and weigh it every 490 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 2: day and all that stuff. But people can do that. 491 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 2: That's fine. You can still get there. And that's our 492 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 2: current investigation in new drug application sitting in the FDA 493 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 2: right now, takes all that into account. But to your point, 494 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 2: to really study this and to get researchers more enthused 495 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 2: to do it, if it could be down scheduled down 496 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 2: to two or three, then you don't need to safe 497 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 2: pharmacies can administer it and it would make research a 498 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 2: whole heck of a lot easier. Now, if that didn't happen, 499 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 2: would you still be able to do the research? Absolutely, 500 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 2: that fifty million is going to go towards good work 501 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 2: and all that good stuff. What you have to do 502 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,479 Speaker 2: to do a schedule one study is you have to 503 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: install a safe and a key card reader, all this stuff. 504 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 2: You have to have a DEA agent come out and 505 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 2: look at your safe. It's quite a journey, but you know, 506 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 2: we're on board for that. 507 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: I think we need a much higher sense of urgency 508 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: about certain kinds of breakthroughs. And I'm thinking, like from 509 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: the Veterans Administration, the scale of what they deal with 510 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: in areas that are potentially directly affected and improved by 511 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: IBA game, it really should be a national project to 512 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: make sure how to use it, to make sure that 513 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: it's safe, but then to get it very widely available 514 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: throughout the entire Veterans administration program. 515 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 2: Oh absolutely. We've been trying to have those initial conversations 516 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 2: and really try to find inroads into talking with folks 517 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 2: in the current VA. I've had some discussions with former 518 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 2: administration kind of officials from the VA with enthusiasm, you know. 519 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 2: I think that there's a certain hot potato that happens 520 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 2: with some of this stuff where somebody has to hold it, 521 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 2: you know, and so we're happy to kind of hold 522 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 2: it and get enough of the ball rolling so that 523 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 2: there's some momentum. And then my senses is that once 524 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 2: there's enough of a snowball effect, to your point, then 525 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 2: the VA is going to really pick this up and 526 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 2: run with it. That's really my hope. I met with 527 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 2: folks early on at the VA and showed them the 528 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 2: data a couple of years ago, some of the senior 529 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 2: doctors there, and they all seem very enthused. And so 530 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 2: it's just in my view of matter of time but 531 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 2: continuing to do the good work. 532 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: Where are the major veterans organizations on ibogame. 533 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 2: They're very positive, you know, and I've talked to some 534 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 2: folks from DD two and so they're very positive. But 535 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 2: I think everybody is in the kind of wait and see. 536 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 2: And that's why I think what Governor Perry's you know, 537 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 2: work in Texas and now in other states, why that's 538 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 2: so important, Because I think that getting some momentum going 539 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 2: and then being able to go back once we have 540 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 2: a big completed trial where we can go and say, 541 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 2: look like, we do this in two hundred veterans, and 542 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 2: it separates really nicely from hopefully I'm speculating right now, 543 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 2: but if everything goes well, it separates really nice from 544 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 2: the placebo pill and it looks like it's very real. 545 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 2: We want to get this through the FDA, and we 546 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 2: want the VA to take it up and run with 547 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 2: it as soon as we do. 548 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: What you're doing is really really important for literally millions 549 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: of people. 550 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 2: Thank you, sir. 551 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: I'm very impressed. Frankly, this was exactly the conversation I 552 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: was hoping we were going to have after our introductory 553 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: conversation about IBA game. I want to thank you for 554 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: joining me and giving us your medical assessment on ibgame treatments. 555 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: And I want to let our listeners know they can 556 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 1: find the study you conducted, which was published in Nature 557 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: Medicine at Nature dot com, and they can also read 558 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: more about it by visiting med dot Stanford dot edu. 559 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: And you're really doing very important work, doctor Williams. And 560 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: I'm very grateful that you would take this time to 561 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: share with us. 562 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much, speaker, and happy to chat anytime, 563 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 2: and thank you for your interests. So have a great tek. 564 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, doctor Nolan Williams. You can 565 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: learn more about the Stanford Study and ibigain on our 566 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: show page at newtsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by 567 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: Gagish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. 568 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show 569 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team 570 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: at Gingerish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I 571 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us 572 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: with five stars and give us a review so others 573 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of 574 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: Newtsworld can say for my three free weekly columns at 575 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: gingrishpe sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This 576 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: is Nutsworld.