1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:02,280 Speaker 1: Have you ever looked at the stock market and thought, 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: Dear Lord, my portfolio needs some help, or thank God, 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: it's not that bad today. Well, for one investor in Idaho, 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: that prayer happens every day, though with a little less exasperation. 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 2: Heavenly Father, as we head into our week full of work, 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 2: we pray that you would go with us, that you'd 7 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 2: be with us, Lord, go before us. Thank you. 8 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: That's Robert Netsley, the president and CEO of Inspire Investing. 9 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: His company does something he. 10 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 2: Calls biblically responsible investing. 11 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,239 Speaker 1: Biblically responsible investing for the uninitiated. 12 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 2: What doesn't mean to invest for the Lord of God 13 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 2: means certainly to do what you can to earn a 14 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 2: good return and use the returns for redemptive purposes, but 15 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 2: also means, like Proverbs chapter sixteen says, better is a 16 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 2: little with righteousness than great gains with injustice. If there 17 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 2: has to be a trade off between making a ton 18 00:00:55,040 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 2: of money or being moral, they choose practices morality, ethics, 19 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: and there's very few people that I think would disagree 20 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 2: with that. 21 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: So Robert invests depending on what he thinks the Bible 22 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: might support or not support. He used to label his 23 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,759 Speaker 1: offerings as faith based. 24 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 2: ESG in twenty nineteen, like when we watched WWJD. It's 25 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: the first fund that had ESG in the name. What 26 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 2: would you Do WWD? But now it's just like, all 27 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 2: of a sudden, I'm talking to people who don't even 28 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 2: know what a sock or an equity or mutual fund is, 29 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 2: and they're. 30 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 3: Like, oh, ESG he said that, Yeah, exactly what. 31 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 4: Does it mean? 32 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,559 Speaker 2: I don't know, but it's evil, wicked, bad. 33 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and 34 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 35 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. Robert Netsley personifies a bigger war going on 36 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: in the investment world and American politics over a little 37 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: acronym called ESG. In the last year, there's been a 38 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: Republican backlash to the trillions of dollars committed to investing 39 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: practices that take environmental, social, and governance concerns into account. 40 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: And then there's Robert. He's an evangelical Christian trying to 41 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: realize his values and stay true to his own beliefs 42 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,399 Speaker 1: in the investing world. That's sometimes intersex with Wall Street's 43 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: ESG strategy, but it also lays bare some contradictions. My 44 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: colleague Sagel Kishan reports on ESG investing for Bloomberg News, 45 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: and she flew to Idaho to meet with Robert. She 46 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: wrote a fascinating piece last fall called what would Jesus Buy? 47 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: Investor charts course for two billion dollar fund and she's 48 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: going to share more of that story with us for 49 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: today's crash course Conservatives versus ESG. It's a tale of 50 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: two conflicts in a way, should there be biases in 51 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: the investing world, be it faith based or social activism? 52 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: And should ESG exist at all? Welcome to the show, Stagel. 53 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. 54 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: So before we dive back into Robert's story, I want 55 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: listeners to get to know you a little bit more. 56 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 1: You've been at Bloomberg about twenty years now. And how 57 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: long have you been on the ESG beat. 58 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 3: It's just over three years, just before the pandemic we 59 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 3: started the. 60 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: Beat, and y ESG, why do you love this little 61 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: corner of the market. 62 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 3: It's complex, it's undefined, it's everywhere but nowhere. Just trying 63 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 3: to figure out the complexities is what draw me to 64 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 3: the beat. 65 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: And you're good at solving complexities. 66 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 3: I wish. 67 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: I bet you are. I think you are. That's why 68 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: you're here. Now. How did you find out about Robert Netsley? 69 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: What attracted you to him as a story? 70 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 3: Well, I first heard about him after the shooting in Yuvaldi, 71 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 3: Texas last year, and I was looking at whether es 72 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 3: funds held gunstocks and I thought, obviously no. But then 73 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 3: I found his funds and we found that he held 74 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 3: shares in the firearms company called sturm Rugger, one of 75 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 3: the big ones, and a shooting sports company called Vista Outdoor. 76 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 3: So I called him. He said that gun violence is deplorable, 77 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 3: but guns themselves aren't unethical or immoral by themselves. I 78 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 3: remember thinking it was a little weird, but to me 79 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 3: it was new to hear about a conservative version of ESSU. 80 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 3: I knew I had to learn more. So I helped 81 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 3: on a plane and Future Boise last year. 82 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: Okay, well, so why don't you take over the story 83 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: from there, and then we'll meet back here later in 84 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: the episode to talk more about ESG and what you've 85 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: learned sounds great. 86 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 3: Robert Nesley is a small part of a bigger clash 87 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 3: that's going on in America, Red versus Blue and the 88 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 3: worlds of finance investing haven't been immune. EESG, which stands 89 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 3: for Environmental, Social and Governance Investing, has become a pinata 90 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 3: and dragged into the cultural wars. On the one hand, 91 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 3: proponents of ESG say it's important to take into account 92 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 3: things like climate change and workers' rights when making financing 93 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 3: and investing decisions, especially amid societal changes, regulation and pressing 94 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 3: problems like global warming. When opponents on the political right 95 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 3: say es SHE has become a way for progressives to 96 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 3: impose their views and their goals on financial markets, essentially 97 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 3: a threat to the American way of doing business. Robert 98 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 3: Nesley is somewhere in the middle of those two. He's 99 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 3: a bit of an anomaly. He straddles both sides. In 100 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 3: one sense, he is a faith based investor who excludes 101 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 3: things like tobacco and alcohol from his portfolio. On the other, 102 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 3: he invests in gun makers and pushes back on things 103 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 3: like LGBTQ issues. We'll get into more of that later, 104 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 3: but first I want you to hear where Robert came from. 105 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 3: He grew up in California in the Monterey Bay area. 106 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 3: His parents married right out of high school and had 107 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 3: Roberts and his younger brother. Not long after that, his 108 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 3: mom stopped using drugs, but his dad didn't, so they 109 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 3: got the worse. 110 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 2: When I was about three, reading by my mom, my 111 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 2: younger brother's artistic and on food stamps for a little 112 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 2: bit and all that kind of thing, going through life 113 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 2: and just really seeing the faithfuls. 114 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 3: I got through all of that as evangelical Christians. They 115 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 3: went to church. The community there gave Robert's ability and 116 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 3: he had a sense that God was providing for his family. 117 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,359 Speaker 3: But he really found God one day when he was 118 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 3: seven years old and on time out. 119 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:47,919 Speaker 2: I remember this really feeling like sorry for mysel whatever whatever. 120 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 2: Nobody loves me, yah yah YadA, and you know, writing 121 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 2: in my kiddy, and it's remembering what the pastor said 122 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 2: that you know, Jesus loves you actually and he will 123 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 2: forgive you of your sin. And as a seven year 124 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 2: old does remember praying and asking Jesus to come into 125 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 2: my heart, you know, and I give him my life 126 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 2: to him there and then that's when the personally I 127 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 2: made a decision to really follow Christ in a very 128 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: childlike way. 129 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 3: Robert went to community college then later got his college 130 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 3: degree online. In between that he met his wife at 131 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 3: a tiny church in his hometown. They lived a life 132 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 3: of what he called intentional ministry, doing work in the 133 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 3: community in the name of God. He worked with high 134 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 3: schoolers with disabilities and at a pro life pregnancy center. 135 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 3: When he and his wife started having kids and needs 136 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 3: more money, he got a job at a Volkswagen dealership 137 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 3: until it closed during the two thousand and eight financial crisis. 138 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 2: On my way home from getting let go, when they 139 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 2: told everybody, you know what was going on, like ahead 140 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 2: was kind of spending were respecting our second baby, and 141 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 2: it's like, I don't know what I'm going to do. 142 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 4: So we just kind of pulled. 143 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 2: Over and praying and really felt a peace of God 144 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: to say, like, you know what, you've never really liked 145 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: that job anyway, this is your opportunity to do whatever 146 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 2: you want to do and I'll take care of it. 147 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,679 Speaker 3: So he thought about what jobs could have family friendly hours, 148 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 3: and he decided to look for a job at a bank. 149 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 3: He applied to everything he could, and then he got 150 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 3: a gig with Wells Fargo in their investment department. Even 151 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 3: though math was his worst subject in school, he picked 152 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 3: it up really quickly, got license and moved into a 153 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 3: role advising clients on their investments. He says he was 154 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 3: happy as a clam and til decided to lead a 155 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 3: Bible study on finances at his church. He wanted to 156 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 3: talk about what the Bible teaches people about money. So 157 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 3: he starts for searching and. 158 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 2: Then some article came up about biple. The response investing 159 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 2: like investing interesting click and introduced this concept of hard 160 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 2: thought about what the companies you own, like you're an owner, 161 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 2: what they're actually doing to make money? Right? And so 162 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: if you own Netflix or whatever videos like, would you 163 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 2: have a video store that sold pornography videos in the back? 164 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 4: Like? 165 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 2: No, I wouldn't, And yet that's exactly what we do 166 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: as shareholders. 167 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 3: Robert says there are lots of scriptures in the Bible 168 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 3: that say it's bad to make money off of things 169 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 3: that are immoral. 170 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 2: That is attestable to the ward. 171 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 3: So he turned to his own investments, and he quickly 172 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 3: found what he considers to be a major red flag. 173 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 3: He had been investing in companies that manufacture aborta fashions 174 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 3: or drugs that helped ender pregnancy. His heart sank. Remember, 175 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 3: he was the president of a profe pregnancy center and 176 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 3: his reading of the Bible concluded that abortion is bad, 177 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 3: so that investment was a complete no no for him. 178 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 2: I remember sitting at my desk sort of slack jo 179 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 2: like this son that this was something that I had missed, 180 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 2: that the church is obviously missing. And then I couldn't 181 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 2: do my job, like somebody came to mister now and 182 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 2: asked me to play the trade, like I couldn't do 183 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 2: it with a queen conscience. And then I go craps 184 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 2: because what else was I going to do? And so 185 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 2: it's incredibly frightening. 186 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 3: So he quit the bank, and he said he felt 187 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 3: God was calling him to do something else. He dabbled 188 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 3: with what he called biblically responsible investing, and then in 189 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 3: twenty fifteen he started his own firm called Inspire Investing. Essentially, 190 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 3: Inspire invests in companies it seems worthy, engages with those 191 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 3: that hopes to convert, and excludes or divest from ones 192 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 3: that it finds immoral. 193 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: In the apostle, Paul in one of his letters to 194 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 2: the churches and talks about how he's like he's compelled 195 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 2: to preach the Gospel and there there's nothing else that 196 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 2: he can do. He's just he's compelled to preach the gospel, 197 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 2: and I really felt like that, like I'm compelled, Like 198 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 2: there's nothing else I can do other than then this, 199 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 2: you know, goes share this story with people, and I 200 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 2: don't know how it's going to end up, you know, 201 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 2: maybe terribly financially, but this is what I have to do. 202 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 2: So close my eye, step out the mote, and you know, 203 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 2: trusted God, and he's been He's faithful. 204 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 3: The market was exceptionally bad last year because of inflation, 205 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 3: the war in the Ukraine, and fears of a global recession. 206 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 3: So maybe it doesn't mean a lot that his biggest 207 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 3: fund slump about twenty four percent last year. If we 208 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 3: look back to a good year twenty nineteen, his fund 209 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,199 Speaker 3: was up twenty eight percent, but it was still slightly 210 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 3: below the overall stock market. But remember what Robert said 211 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 3: at the beginning of this episode. For him, it's not 212 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 3: all about making money. 213 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 2: I'm not an investor who's a Christian. Like I'm a Christian. 214 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 2: You have to work in investment in industry. 215 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,599 Speaker 3: Many of the biggest and most profitable companies are excluded 216 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 3: from his portfolio, which is almost a guarantee that his 217 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 3: investments will underperform. 218 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 2: We exclude companies that you know, support legislation that is 219 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 2: empathetical to a biblical viewpoint, like pushes a certagy or 220 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 2: going twenty to an activist organization that's explicitly pushing an 221 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 2: undisable viewpoint on those areas. 222 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 3: So Robert's reading of the Bible says abortion is bad. 223 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 3: We'll think of all the companies that now it's that 224 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 3: they would pay for employees to travel for an abortion 225 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 3: after the Supreme Court overturn Roe v. Wade last summer, 226 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 3: they're out of its portfolio. Also excluded all of the 227 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 3: companies that support or finance floats during the Pride Parade. 228 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 3: His reading of the Bible isn't supportive of LGBTQ rights either. 229 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 3: I'll just note here that while Netley says that he 230 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 3: loves his LGBTQ neighbors, he doesn't want what he describes 231 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 3: as their lifestyles promoted in society and by companies. Nor 232 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 3: does he want companies to discriminate against people like Kim 233 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 3: in the workplace who hold more traditional views on marriage. 234 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 3: So abortion access and LGBTQ rights are only two issues, 235 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 3: but they put a lot of companies on the exclude list. 236 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 3: Other companies are shunned for reasons such as distributing pornography, 237 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 3: selling tobacco and alcohol products, funding stem cell research, and 238 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 3: promoting in vitro fertilization. All in all, Robert says Inspire 239 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 3: excludes about half of this in P five hundred companies 240 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 3: like Amazon, Walmart's Apple, and Google's parent company Alphabets. In 241 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 3: an effort to limit the number of companies on the 242 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 3: exclude list, Robert will often press executives, encouraging them to 243 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 3: avoid what he says is politicization. 244 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: Here's one example, Costco, who likes Costco wholesale fans of 245 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 2: free samples in the room. 246 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 3: He's on the stage at a conservative conference in twenty eighteen. 247 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 2: Last summer, we were alerted to the fact that they 248 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 2: had begun sponsoring certain gay pride parades throughout the country, 249 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 2: a handful of different cities. Obviously, this is concerning to us. 250 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 2: So I picked up the phone and I just called 251 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 2: Investor Relations. 252 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 3: He said. The CFO called him back and they had 253 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 3: several conversations. 254 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 2: About six weeks after that initial phone call, got another 255 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 2: call from this gentleman telling us that Costco had made 256 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 2: the executive decision not to support divisive issues his word, 257 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: divisive issues such as gay pride parades. 258 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 3: Costco wouldn't respond to requests for comment, but these sorts 259 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 3: of campaigns show that his work is about more than 260 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 3: just investing in this faith. He's having an influence. It 261 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 3: doesn't always go his way, though, He says he's tried 262 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 3: to persuade Smuckers against supporting LGBTQ rights and other quality issues. 263 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 3: He's also tried to press stick Sporting Goods against paying 264 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 3: for employee travel for abortions, but so far he's been unsuccessful. Yet, 265 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 3: Robert says he avoids the shame game. 266 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: One of the big criticisms of physically responsible investing generally 267 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 2: is that it can be easily perceived or assumed that 268 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 2: it's a guilt trip game, right, like, hey, did you 269 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 2: know that you're invested in this saying chamee? And unfortunately, 270 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 2: I think historically there have been those that have taken 271 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 2: that approach. Good intentions maybe, but you know, run approach. 272 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 2: And you know, we've heard a lot of people, especially 273 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 2: from the early days, like before we got an invol 274 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 2: like the decades, you know, nineties and eighties and whatnot, 275 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 2: that that really was the perception that it was like 276 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 2: a guild and shame sort of legalistic approach, which is 277 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 2: distasteful and not really difficult. We're supposed to be compelled 278 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 2: by love and grace. 279 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 3: Not guilt and shame, So take that as you will. 280 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 3: But one thing that really struck me was that he 281 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 3: decided to label his funders e SG. When I thought 282 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 3: about it, it made sense in some ways. I mean, 283 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 3: Inspire certainly screens companies by a variety of categories that 284 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 3: fall under e S and G topics, which is environmental, 285 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 3: social and governance issues. Inspire will screen for human rights violations, 286 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 3: forced labor and other worker issues like minimum wage policies. 287 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 3: It'll look at whether companies are cognizant of their environmental 288 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 3: impacts such as water consumption and air pollution. And Inspire 289 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 3: will screen for discriminatory or prejeatory lending where companies are 290 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 3: aggressively marketing products in low income communities. All of those 291 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 3: are considered ESG factors. But the day I visited him 292 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 3: last August, that was all about to change. Right before 293 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 3: our interview, he was in a meeting with his board 294 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 3: and they decided to remove the ESCH label from their funds. 295 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 2: I don't know if there was some meeting that they 296 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 2: had in conservative radio land or something right, but like, hey, 297 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 2: this year, let's talk about ESG every single time we 298 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 2: go on the here and so the you know, just 299 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 2: we noticed the rhetoric is like increasing. Hmm. Watching this, 300 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 2: I don't know how that's going to go. We're committed 301 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 2: to like trying to be alive, trying to be redempted 302 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 2: influence on ESG. And meanwhile we're getting like Lambassett from 303 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 2: the left for like saying were ESG. 304 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 3: Roberts says he got blowback from liberal corners for claiming 305 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 3: the ESCH label while investing in stocks that might contradict 306 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 3: a more traditional understanding of what ESG means. Meanwhile, his 307 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 3: more conservative clients were also getting confused by the label. 308 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 3: Conservative talking heads like Glenn Beck and Tucker Carson had 309 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 3: been attacking ESG on air, describing it as what they 310 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 3: call a leftist agenda. So have high profile politicians such 311 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 3: as Florida Governor Ron de Santis and former Vice President 312 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 3: Mike Pence. Beck has said ESG poses a danger to 313 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 3: soul of America. DeSantis has gone as far as directing 314 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 3: his state to pull billions of dollars from black Rock, 315 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 3: the Wall Street money manager that's been the most vocal 316 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 3: about pressing companies on issues like climate change, and more 317 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 3: than a dozen states have pushed anti ESG laws. So 318 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 3: if all these guys are calling ESG woke capitalism, what 319 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 3: was inspired doing? Robert says he wishes ESG could be 320 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 3: seen as more neutral, but it is what it is. 321 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 2: It's a narrative that we are powerless to counteract. If 322 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 2: we had a bigger microphone than maybe we would try. 323 00:17:55,240 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 2: But the amount. Yeah, when every Serti pundit is calling 324 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 2: an evil like, we just cannot counteract that narrative. 325 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 3: Not that Robert NeSSI wants to counteract conservative talking points. 326 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 3: He is on the conservative end of the spectrum after all, 327 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 3: and he shared the stage at conservative conferences with big 328 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 3: names from Republican Party. He says he won't endorse candidates, 329 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 3: but his work naturally leads him to back or speak 330 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 3: has against companies based on whether they're handling of social 331 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 3: issues conforms to his reading of the Bible. 332 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 2: We believe that a healthy business respects all viewpoints, right, 333 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 2: and they certainly they claim to be tolerant and inclusive, 334 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 2: then they should actually be so in practice. So do 335 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 2: you want them neutral or do you want them to 336 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 2: watch about neutral? Right? So mean neutral by allowing all points. 337 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 3: Making shoes, just situating cheese. 338 00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 2: If it's Nike, yes I would like it, and it's 339 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 2: a hobby lobby or just like what I like him 340 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 2: to keep not being neutral, you know. But even those 341 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 2: companies they respect new point diversity and all sorts of 342 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 2: people working there, so they're not It's neutrality in you know, 343 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 2: not imposing your beliefs, you know, upon the people working 344 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 2: there in a way that is you know, heavy handed 345 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 2: or whatever else, like it's respecting all the points. 346 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, I'm sorry to interrupt Stagel, but this is 347 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: just so interesting to me. Robert sounds like such a 348 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: likable man, and he has goals of realizing his values 349 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: as an investor and through his portfolio. But I also 350 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 1: think there's some hypocrisy and contradictions going on here that 351 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: are worth exploring. He's asking companies like Nike, for example, 352 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: to be neutral and to not put values ahead of 353 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: their product line for example, or to not put values 354 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 1: ahead of their sponsorships. And yet then he's turning around 355 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,239 Speaker 1: and saying Chick fil A or a hobby lobby is 356 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 1: doing the right thing thing by restricting certain people from 357 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: its premises or from its product line, And that just 358 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: feels to me like a deep contradiction, especially from someone 359 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: who says they're a Christian if you accept that sort 360 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: of a basic tenet of Christianity is love and forgiveness. 361 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: Who is he really forgiving? Who does he really love 362 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 1: when he's working through where he's going to invest? And 363 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: then the criticisms he has of other people for making 364 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 1: exactly the same choices he does. 365 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 3: Well, that's where it gets all murky. A lot of 366 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 3: conservatives feel that corporate America has been co opted by 367 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 3: liberals who are pushing goals like climate change, for instance. 368 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 3: These conservatives want businesses to focus on business and to 369 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 3: be more neutral and not following liberal goals. 370 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, but neutralities in the eye of the beholder too 371 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 1: r right, too right, and at least classically with investment. 372 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 1: If you're saying you're being neutral, you're trying to look 373 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 1: just at the numbers. And now you have these inflicts 374 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 1: between people who say, we have the numbers, but we 375 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: also have values. But then you have Robert Netsley who's saying, 376 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: my values are good for me, but your values aren't 377 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: good for you. 378 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 3: Maybe this is a good place to pause on the story. 379 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: I agree, let's take a break, and then where are 380 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: we going when we get back. 381 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 3: I want to step back and talk to some of 382 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 3: the experts I've been speaking to about what's going on 383 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 3: in the issue space, and then we'll go back to 384 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 3: Roberts and here's some of his sorts. 385 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: Great, we'll be right back with all of that. Okay, 386 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 1: we're back with Bloomberg's ESG reporter Segel Kishan. 387 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. 388 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 2: So we've just heard the. 389 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: Story of Robert Netsley, a faith based investor in Idaho. 390 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: But he's not the first person obviously who's invested this way. So, Sagel, 391 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: why don't you take over the story again and give 392 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: our listeners some of that history. 393 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 3: Thank you. Based investing is the oldest foe, of saying 394 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 3: old capitalism. 395 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 2: Sure, I mean going back to slave trade in the UK. 396 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 3: This is Robert Netsley again. 397 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, you had the Quakers and others who just refused 398 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 2: to invest in the slave trade and were outspoken about 399 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 2: slave trade. So well, the people of faith, specifically Christian 400 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 2: faith in that context and scripturally, like even thousands of 401 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 2: years before that, you got proverbs and rules surrounding commerce 402 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 2: that prohibit immorality, like including the slave trade. You know, 403 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 2: going back to Sillaviting and Moses, this is an immoral business. 404 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 2: You don't steal people and sell them. 405 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 3: I called Nikita Singal to learn more about this. She's 406 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,959 Speaker 3: the co head of Sustainable Investment and ESG Atlizard Asset 407 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 3: Management in New York. 408 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 5: Esg's birthplace was kind of from the Sri movement. 409 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 3: Sri that's socially responsible investing. She pointed to religious groups 410 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 3: like the Methodists as well as Sharer law in the 411 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 3: Muslim faith. 412 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 5: And many other religions have some form of influence over 413 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 5: how the followers of that faith should invest in line 414 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 5: with the principles of that religion. 415 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 3: When hot butts in is Shoes later arose around the 416 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 3: Vietnam War and Apartheis in South Africa, a lot of 417 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 3: consumers started using their purchasing power to boycott companies turning 418 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 3: a profit there. 419 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 5: All of that time period was about investing in companies 420 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 5: that were we believed they were engaging in activities that 421 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 5: were not positive for society, and the tool that was 422 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 5: used was to just simply exclude investing in those companies 423 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 5: because it was signaling a specific value or a virtue. 424 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 5: I think ESG is very different from all of that. 425 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 3: In the Keyse's eyes as a person who does this 426 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 3: kind of investing every day, ESG is. 427 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 5: Not virtue signaling. It's not a product, it's a process. 428 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 5: It's actually part and parcel and a very essential part 429 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 5: of good investing. And what it is about is thinking 430 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 5: on behalf of our clients as their fiduciaries, what are 431 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 5: these emerging risks and opportunities related to the environment and 432 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 5: society that are increasingly becoming market issues. 433 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 3: When I told Nikisa about Robert's fund, she was unequivocal. 434 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 5: I would not consider that ESG. 435 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 3: She highlighted for me the difference between ESG and what 436 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 3: she calls impacts investing. That's where an investor might try 437 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 3: to use the investments to affect change or influence a 438 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 3: company's policies. 439 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 5: There is a healthy and growing subset of our clients 440 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,239 Speaker 5: who are interested in that, and we need to make 441 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 5: sure that we can do it while keeping in mind 442 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 5: their risk return objectives. But it's not the place of 443 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 5: a global asset manager like us to be able to 444 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 5: have an opinion on that. 445 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 3: To learn more about what makes ESG ESG. I called 446 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 3: an expert who I've spoken to you while on the beat, v. 447 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 4: Told Hennish, and I'm Westein and faculty director of the 448 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 4: ESG Initiative at the Wharton School, and I'm also the 449 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 4: Deloitte and twohe professor of management. 450 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 3: Viz has a similaritate to na Kisa when it comes 451 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 3: to what factors go into the ESG investment plan. 452 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,239 Speaker 4: ESG is about doing hard financial analysis and it's not 453 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 4: at all driven by ideology. It's driven by economics. 454 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 3: He'll study data to try to understand how companies are 455 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 3: analyzing environmental, social, and governance factors. Then he'll look into 456 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 3: how those factors might affect a company's bottom line. Here's 457 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 3: an example. Palm oil is a common ingredient found in 458 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,199 Speaker 3: cosmetic products like lipsticks, but it's also leading to a 459 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 3: lot of deforestation around the world. 460 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 4: That's just one of many examples. Or an agricultural company 461 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 4: by changing its mix of supplies, by changing where and 462 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 4: how it's sourcing, can have an impact on deforestation and 463 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 4: an impact on clear cutting and other environmentally damaging practices. 464 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 4: Companies are going to be increasingly pressured to undertake those actions. 465 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 4: Some companies are head in that transition, some companies are behind. 466 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 4: That should be reflected in their valuation. Otherwise, government policy 467 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 4: or consumer changes in preferences will lead them to be 468 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,239 Speaker 4: forced to make these changes later on when they're more 469 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 4: expensive to make. 470 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 3: It's not a short term gain. He's really trying to 471 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,199 Speaker 3: map out how a company's decisions today will affect its 472 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 3: profits in the future. 473 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 4: There may be periods of time like twenty twenty two, 474 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 4: where you outperform the market, but you will underperform over 475 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 4: the medium to long term. 476 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 3: A number of industry groups report that trillions of dollars 477 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 3: are already weighing EESG issues to some degree. That's a 478 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 3: massive pool of capital, and fitz says it's only going 479 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 3: to get bigger. But the southern political polarization of ESGU 480 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 3: worries him. Sure, ESU models need work, but he doesn't 481 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 3: think that's a reason to give up on the strategy 482 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 3: or ignore how these factors affect the markets. 483 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 4: What I'd point to is the unfair standard they're holding 484 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 4: the ESG movement to. They say, we have haven't built 485 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 4: the data set yet that can predict future stock market returns. 486 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 4: That we haven't built the financial model that can predict 487 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 4: which stock will outperform the others over the next ten years. 488 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 4: Show me anyone in the financial service space who has 489 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,239 Speaker 4: a data set that can predict which stocks are going 490 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 4: to outperform the others over the next ten years. Anyone 491 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 4: who had such a data set would be a billionaire. 492 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 4: There's a struggle to always, in each market cycle, in 493 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 4: each month, try to figure out which stocks are going 494 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 4: to outperform and which arn't. 495 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 3: There's so much confusion about what ESG is. It means 496 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 3: different things to different people. The data is incomplete, it's 497 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 3: difficult to compare, and overall the field is still a 498 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 3: work in progress, and even experts acknowledge that ESG analysis 499 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 3: is still in its infancy. Nikita says people just have 500 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:52,679 Speaker 3: to appreciate where the industry is. 501 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 5: That's the wild wild West that we're still in. 502 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 3: Nikita also says she doesn't see bias at work in 503 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 3: esgunis regardless of how the models are built. 504 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 5: There is no such thing as a good ESG company 505 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 5: or a bad ESG company, because you're throwing in three 506 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 5: very different variables and you're somehow assuming that that is 507 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 5: going to make some sense. Our job as an investor 508 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 5: is not to say whether that's good or bad for society. 509 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 5: It's about saying how does that impact the financial markets. 510 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 3: Roberts agrees with the Kisa and fits that is she 511 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,360 Speaker 3: shouldn't be prescriptive, but he thinks that's actually what's happening. 512 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 2: The Pollyanna and me probably wishes that there could be 513 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:35,719 Speaker 2: a two part of the UESG system. 514 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 3: And how would that work. We'll take the E for example. 515 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 2: There are those who just think mining is bad and 516 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 2: oil production is literally evil, and it's killing Mother Earth, 517 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 2: and we should stop all drilling, period, no matter what 518 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 2: the costs. The Bible says that we're here God has 519 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 2: put us in his earth to like exercise his dominion 520 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 2: over this world. We have a right to extract things 521 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 2: from their earth. Right we have a right to use 522 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 2: the resources to benefit mankind. 523 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 3: Robert's biblical view of mining lines up with a more 524 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 3: conservative way of thinking. So the conservative ESG system miight 525 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 3: grade mining companies highly and invest in more of them, 526 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 3: whereas a liberal EESG system might grade them poorly and 527 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:29,719 Speaker 3: not invest one issue, two parties, and two very different approaches. 528 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: Okay, hang on a second, I'm going to butt in here. 529 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: Again to clarify, Nikita and vit are saying that ESG 530 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: is not political and it's not partisan. They say they're 531 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: just looking at data that shows how a company will 532 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: perform in the future depending on how they handle environmental, social, 533 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: and governance factors. But some conservatives think that issues like 534 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: climate change, for instance, are inherently political, even if the 535 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: vast majority of scientists agree that climate change is real. 536 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a pretty good summary, tim And actually there 537 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 3: may be even more approaches to issue than what I've 538 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 3: laid out. I spoke to another faith based investor, Mark Reggier, 539 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 3: who works in Wisconsin, and he has a different reading 540 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 3: of the Bible than Robert does. 541 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 2: I make it a rule not to tell anybody what 542 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 2: Jesus would do, because I don't know. That's what makes 543 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 2: the difference between somebody who's the son of God and 544 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 2: somebody who's definitely not. 545 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 3: Like I said, there's no clear definition of is issue. 546 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 3: There's lots of different takes on it. It depends on 547 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 3: who you speak with. 548 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: What a minefield. I want to talk more about this, 549 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: but we have to take an ad break first. We'll 550 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: be right back. Okay, We're back with Sagel Kishan, the 551 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: ESG wizard of Bloomberg News. I've found this whole story 552 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: so fascinating, Sagel, and a lot's gone on since you 553 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: interviewed Robert the last time. Tell me about some of 554 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: the most significant things that have happened within the ESG 555 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: movement during that period. 556 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 3: Gosh, so much has happened. We've had Ronda Santis pylon 557 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 3: An attack EESG. We've had attorney generals across different states 558 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 3: launch investigations into ESG. We've had billions of dollars pulled 559 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 3: out of black Rock, Wall Street's biggest champion of ESG, 560 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 3: and plenty of ANTIESG bills being pushed through states. 561 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 1: You know, it's very interesting to me when these things 562 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: happen in the US, where a momentum comes behind a movement, 563 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,719 Speaker 1: whatever the movement might be. We saw this happening with 564 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: another acronym CRT or critical race theory that invaded the 565 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: discussion of education and what's appropriate for the classroom and 566 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: what isn't It's rare that you get that same phenomenon 567 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: on Wall Street and that it becomes so clearly politicized 568 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: so quickly, And what do you think gave it this 569 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: kind of energy, like, why now and why has it 570 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: gotten such traction? 571 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 3: Why now? I mean, the ESG movement, if you can 572 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 3: call it a movement, has overtaken in some ways asset 573 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 3: managers and banks. Everybody's been pushing to look at things 574 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 3: like climate change, c suite diversity, inequalities. 575 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: The composition of boards exactly exactly. 576 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 3: And so that's why we've had this big pushback because 577 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 3: Wall Street has gone big on this in the last 578 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 3: three years. 579 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: And is that pure lunacy. Has Wallstreet gone off its 580 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: rocker that it's now actually trying to embrace things like 581 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: climate change or corporate diversity or boardroom diversity. I mean, 582 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: clearly its critics think it has, and they're painting it 583 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: as dangerous, but just trying to step back for our 584 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: listeners a little bit. As someone who watches Wall Street 585 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,959 Speaker 1: as a sophisticated observer, as a very numerous sophisticated observer, 586 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: do you think this is a threat to the foundations 587 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: of American finance and the roots of Wall Street. 588 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 3: It's funny that you say that, because progressives who are 589 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 3: trying to push and act on things like climate change 590 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 3: and inequalities in society, they don't feel that capsule markets 591 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 3: corporations are doing enough. In fact, they think it's something 592 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 3: called greenwashing, where a company saying they're doing good things, 593 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 3: but really they're not. So it's been pushed and pulled 594 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 3: from both sides at the moment. 595 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: And that critique from the left is you actually are 596 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: not putting your money where your mouth is, exactly, and 597 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: now you have Wall Street stepping up or at least 598 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: attempting to to put its money where its mouth is. 599 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: The left says it's not enough money and the right 600 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: saying watch your mouth. And caught in the middle are 601 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: essentially money managers trying to figure out both profitable ways 602 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: to invest in socially responsible ways to invest in. Hence 603 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: a firestorm. 604 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 3: Absolutely, by the end of the day, Wall Street is 605 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 3: about making money. They're doing this to generate fees, to 606 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 3: generate revenue. But the antiesh backlash is actually now sent 607 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 3: a chill down Wall street spine. We've seen a lot 608 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 3: of banks, a lot of investors who two years ago 609 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 3: would wax lyrical about climate change and seasuit diversity. Now 610 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 3: they've gone on the down low. 611 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 1: And is that because they see reputational risk baked into 612 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: that that at the end of the day. They're saying 613 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: to themselves, it might be socially responsible, we even might 614 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: make money off of this, but this sort of firestorm 615 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 1: of criticism we're getting doesn't make it worth it, because 616 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:30,439 Speaker 1: we might lose business in the long run. 617 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean Larry Think, the chief of Black Rock, 618 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 3: he's really been attacked in many ways by the Republicans. 619 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: And deeply personally attacked. 620 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 3: Absolutely, they've really called him on billboards. 621 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: Some of its facts of anti Semitism. 622 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 3: And so he's had to then tone down his rhetoric 623 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 3: on climate change. And last year he went down to 624 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 3: Texas to even meet all executives who explain to them 625 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 3: the energy transition and they need to shift a cleaner fuels, 626 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 3: but there are tax on him and the company have 627 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 3: been pretty relentless, and that's why a lot of other 628 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,760 Speaker 3: companies have kind of duck for cover, and they're really 629 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 3: toning down what they're saying about climate change in particular. 630 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 3: And on top of that, we've had Attorney general's launch 631 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 3: investigations looking at the legal ees in many of the 632 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 3: efforts that Wall Street are doing when it comes to 633 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 3: the energy transition. So yeah, everybody's really looking at their 634 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 3: marketing documents, the pitch books, making sure that they have 635 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 3: all their ducks lined up. 636 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 1: I guess so, as we both know, no one really 637 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 1: has all their ducks lined up, no matter what they're doing, 638 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:37,240 Speaker 1: whether they're investor, a corporate manager, a parent, or a teacher. 639 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: I think one of the things I wonder about in 640 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: all this is if there is a consensus, a scientific consensus, 641 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,439 Speaker 1: that climate change might be a problem. I think there's 642 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 1: definitely a social consensus that people should not be discriminated 643 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: against for leadership positions in politics or in corporate America 644 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: simply because they're a woman, or because they're a person 645 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: of color or have a different ethnic background. If we're forestalling, 646 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: putting money behind these kinds of efforts based on bad information, 647 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: and it runs against both scientific information and broadly held 648 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: social values, we're getting into a pretty problematic place, aren't we, 649 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: in terms of being able to take the necessary action 650 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: we need to solve problems. 651 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 2: No. 652 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 3: Absolutely, But to people on the right, a lot of 653 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 3: diversity initiatives smacks of affirmative action, of quotas, and historically 654 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:30,439 Speaker 3: they've hated all of that. 655 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder how many of those people on the 656 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: right come from lots of different countries historically and have 657 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,879 Speaker 1: lots of different backgrounds, and now they kind of want 658 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: just one thing. But that's probably for a different podcast. 659 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 1: I want to come back to money in ESG here. 660 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,320 Speaker 1: I also think it's useful to frame exactly how vast 661 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 1: the ESG realm is because most money invested in Wall 662 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,359 Speaker 1: Street has still invested the old fashioned way. People try 663 00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: to find either growth opportunities or undervalued company and create 664 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,240 Speaker 1: a calculus that will result in a profitable payoff somewhere 665 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:09,800 Speaker 1: down the road. How big actually is the ESG universe 666 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 1: right now in terms of what percentage of assets on 667 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: Wall Street flow towards it. 668 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 3: Well, it's certainly not a majority of the assets. It's 669 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 3: probably less than ten, if not five percent of the assets. 670 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 3: But ESG investors they have said, like trillions is involved 671 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 3: in ESG. But what's happening now because of concerns of 672 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 3: greenwashing when people exaggerate their environmental claims, we're seeing a 673 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 3: sort of shrinkage going on both in Europe and the US. 674 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 3: So the numbers are in flux at the moment. 675 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 1: So from where you sit, do you think this means 676 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: that the SG movement is going to run out of steam, 677 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: Does it die? Does it get repackaged with different initials 678 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 1: and sort of sneak past its critics? How does this 679 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 1: play out? 680 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 3: There are even people within ESG who want to get 681 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,439 Speaker 3: rid of the acronym altogether because of all the bad 682 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 3: press in the past year. They're thinking of more mundane 683 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:06,760 Speaker 3: labels like sustainable investing or de risking or material risk factors, 684 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,799 Speaker 3: which they don't really excite people, but that's really what 685 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 3: the issue is. 686 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:12,719 Speaker 1: Maybe they could call it save the planet so your 687 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 1: grandchildren can still live on it. But that's too long 688 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: for an investment. 689 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 5: Isn't it. 690 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 3: But despite the malaise, we're not really seeing companies or banks, 691 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:24,919 Speaker 3: even though they're being less vocal about it, they're still 692 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 3: pushing on behind the scenes on many of these initiatives, 693 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 3: something called green hushing, where you don't talk about your 694 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 3: green activities but you do it anyway, but you do 695 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 3: it anyway. Yeah, this backlash isn't going to go away. 696 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 3: There's gonna be ebbs and flows. But we've got the 697 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 3: elections next year. We've got some of the candidates riding 698 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 3: on anti woke tickets, Rando centers and another one, Vivek 699 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,360 Speaker 3: Ramaswami U. Huh yeah, so yeah, it's going to continue 700 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 3: to be bashed. 701 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 1: Okay, So Joel, I don't let anybody escape this show 702 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: without sharing with our listeners what they've learned, that little 703 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: aha that they've discovered by examining the subject we're talking about. So, 704 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: what have you learned about ESG and the anti ESG 705 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: movement that you didn't know before you began talking to 706 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: Robert Netsley and others. 707 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 3: I guess maybe this is naive of me, But in Europe, 708 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 3: in other parts of the world, there isn't this backlash. 709 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,879 Speaker 3: It's only in America where this backlash is. So I've 710 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:33,879 Speaker 3: been surprised by the pushback by the rights on an 711 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 3: investment strategy that people on left are saying is not 712 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 3: really doing much. What I've learned things aren't so black 713 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 3: and white. 714 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 1: They never are. Thank you for joining us today. 715 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:47,240 Speaker 3: Thank you. 716 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,240 Speaker 1: You can find Sagel Kishan's reporting on Bloomberg dot com 717 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: and if you want to become a subscriber the Bloomberg 718 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: terminal here At crash Course, we believe the collisions can 719 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,720 Speaker 1: be messy, impressive, challenging, surprise, and always instructive. In today's 720 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 1: Crash Course, I learned that there are many ways to 721 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 1: skin the cat when you're talking about what is and 722 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,479 Speaker 1: isn't a value based investment strategy. What did you learn? 723 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. You can tweet at 724 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Opinion handle at Opinion or me at Tim 725 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 1: O'Brien using the hashtag Bloomberg Crash Course. You can also 726 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: subscribe to our show wherever you're listening right now and 727 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 1: leave us a review that helps more people find the show. 728 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by the indispensable Anna Masarakis, Moses 729 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,880 Speaker 1: On Dam and Me. Our supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson, 730 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,239 Speaker 1: and we had editing help from Sagebauman, Katie Boyce, Jeff Grocott, 731 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,839 Speaker 1: Mike Nizza and Christine Vanden Bilart. Blake Maples does our 732 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 1: sound engineering, and our original theme song was composed by 733 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,280 Speaker 1: Luis Gara. I'm Tim O'Brien. We'll be back next week 734 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: with another Crash Course.