1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 1: The idea of an American citizen presenting himself at or 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: herself at the Canadian border and he's saying, I request 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: asylum in Canada under Canadian law because I've been targeted 4 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: for political persecution in the United States of America. 5 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 2: This is how extraordinary it is. I mean, you can 6 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 2: think about that for you think about that for Joe Biden, right. 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 2: I mean again, this seems when you first think about it, 8 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 2: like a crazy thing to think about. But if Trump decides, well, 9 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 2: I'm going to try to lock up the former president 10 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: who I just defeat in the election because I think 11 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 2: he's a crook and he came after me and the 12 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 2: January or the members of the January sixth Committee, you 13 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 2: could envision the scenario that there's not too many logical 14 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 2: leaps from where we are now where American politicians, incumbents 15 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 2: or former politicians have to flee the country because the 16 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 2: president is going after them. 17 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: Very pleased today to welcome David Mosscrop, a freelance writer, 18 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: a Canadian, a frequent country tributor to global newspapers like 19 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: The Globe and Mail. Really pleased to have you to 20 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: talk about the US election through the Canadian prism. 21 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 3: Welcome. 22 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me. 23 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: You wrote a great piece in the Globe and Mail, 24 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: and I want to talk about that today, and I 25 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 1: just want to get it going. The lead of it is, 26 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: the headline is the US has a choice, keep on 27 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: choosing or give it up for good. In November, US 28 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: voters will explicitly decide the future of their democracy and 29 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:42,119 Speaker 1: bodily autonomy, and they can no longer be complacent about 30 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: the freedoms they enjoy. Choice will define the twenty twenty 31 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: four United States election on November fifth. The claim may 32 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: seem as trite as it is self evident. After all, 33 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: every democratic election is about choice. Add up all the 34 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: individual voting decisions of the electorate and lives or shape 35 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: based on the outcome. Choosing is how the whole thing functions. 36 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: But the US is looming contest will be unique, casting 37 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: voters with something beyond the routine, though consequential need to 38 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: make electoral decisions at once. Americans casting their ballots for 39 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: president and other politicians down the ballot will be setting 40 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: the future of the right to choose, both in terms 41 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: of bodily autonomy and democracy. Itself pretty jarring to read. 42 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 2: That it was jarring to think about it, and I 43 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 2: sort of broke out in my career around twenty fifteen 44 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 2: twenty sixteen writing about Donald Trump form mcclean's here in 45 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 2: Canada and early on thinking I was studying political science 46 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 2: as I was finishing up a PhD, and thinking, oh, 47 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 2: this guy's an authoritarian. And everyone was a little bit 48 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 2: nervous to say it because it was an extraordinary thing 49 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: to say about an American presidential candidate and later president. 50 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 2: But it was obvious, I think, to anyone who paid 51 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 2: attention that the guy was an authoritarian. And then it 52 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:14,519 Speaker 2: was like, well, no, no, he's not an authoritarian. Well, maybe 53 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 2: he's an authoritarian, but he's not a fascist. I was like, well, 54 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 2: maybe he's a fascist, but at least he's not going 55 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 2: to attempt to me like a coup. And I was like, well, okay, 56 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 2: maybe he did attempt a coup. And then now we're 57 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 2: on to the next stage of that, which is, well, 58 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 2: what happens if he wins again? Is he gonna leave? 59 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 3: And then what? 60 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: And so it's been jarring for years and this is 61 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 2: just the latest stage in the in the sequence of 62 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 2: jarring events. 63 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 3: What made you see the danger? 64 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 2: Well, it was really studying political science and thinking, okay, 65 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 2: well this is these are the marks and authoritarians and 66 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: an appeal to violence and appeal to order, an authority, 67 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: a desire to do end runs around the law, not 68 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: to be constrained even by not by Congress, not by 69 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 2: the limits of the executive branch, not by your own party, 70 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 2: not by the opposition, not by anyone going after immigrants, 71 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 2: adopting this you know, nativest mercantilist trade policy which pushes 72 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 2: beyond even you know, regular protectionism, which a lot of 73 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 2: countries do. And then finally starting to talk about how 74 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: we know, maybe he's going to be a dictator for 75 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 2: a day. Oh you know, they want to stack the 76 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 2: government full of pro Trump folks and get rid of 77 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 2: anyone who disagrees with the regime. I mean, these are 78 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 2: marks of authoritarianism. And the leap, the tough leap, was 79 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 2: to think this isn't just some textbook thing or something 80 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 2: you'd see in the global South, or you know, we 81 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 2: saw in the early part of the twentieth century. This 82 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: is twenty first century America. This is the republic that 83 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 2: we've been taught and told is the beacon of freedom 84 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 2: of the shining city on the hill zone, and those 85 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 2: things were a little bit jarring, incongruent for a lot 86 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 2: of folks. But as soon as you wrapped your head around, 87 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 2: what we were seeing was textbook, even though it was 88 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 2: extraordinary I think applied to the US. Then the conclusion 89 00:04:58,360 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: was obvious. Now you just had to wrap your head 90 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 2: around and then say, okay, well, what are you gonna 91 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 2: do about it. 92 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: I've had a couple experiences in my life, one one 93 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: lived and one one one read historical. I'm gonna share 94 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: both with them quickly before I get to the question. 95 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 1: So I was in a fire at a holiday party, 96 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: big house, about eight thousand square feet, filled with hundreds 97 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: of people, and it burned to the ground. It was 98 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: about ten o'clock at night, if I remember, and it 99 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: was right on the edge of the evening where people 100 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: were about getting pretty shit faced, and I had a 101 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: flight to the Ukraine. As it was the next day. 102 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: It was a dry evening for me, and I will 103 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 1: never forget. The fire alarms go off, there's clearly smoke 104 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: in the house. 105 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 3: Most people don't get out of the bar line. 106 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: Even when the sprinklers start to go off. There are 107 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: people milling about how people perceive and respond to danger sense. 108 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: It is very subjective. There is a movie being made 109 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: about a man known as the Angel of Prague, Sir 110 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: Anthony Winston. He's going to be played in the movie 111 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: by Sir Anthony Hopkins. And basically Winston's incredible story that 112 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: was a secret for many, many decades because he never 113 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: shared the detail, is that he helped evacuate hundreds of 114 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: Czech children to the United Kingdom in nineteen thirty. 115 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 3: Eight when they could still get out. 116 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 1: And you think about that, and I think about it 117 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: from the prism of having been to Tarisienstadt, to La Dja, 118 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: and through the prism of a parent, this idea that 119 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: you will hand a child, a toddler, a baby to 120 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: a relative stranger before. 121 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 3: Cell phones, knowing. 122 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: That you will not see this child again, maybe or 123 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: not knowing when you will see the child again. But 124 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: your sense of danger is so acute. But there's no 125 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: doubt in my mind that a lot of parents judge 126 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: those parents. All of their children wound up killed in 127 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: concentration camps. But the children who survived were the ones 128 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: whose parents kept that leap of faith. So I share 129 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: your point of view. Going back to two thousand, fifteen 130 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, always took him literally and seriously. The one 131 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: thing I was wrong about in the last nine years 132 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: is I thought Hillary Clinton would win the election. I 133 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: won't make that emotional mistake again about about the country. 134 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: But besides that, been right about most things, and certainly 135 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: right about Trump, including the violence that came, which I 136 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: predicted in September before the election. Chris Christie and his 137 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: book singled me out as if I was crazy, as 138 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: being one of those overheated, over the top Trump critics. 139 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 1: And I guess Chris Christie's come around a little bit 140 00:08:54,440 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: in in my in my direction. But what I'm trying 141 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: to get at at a deep level isn't why we're 142 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: such geniuses right to have seen it coming, but why 143 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: most people can't see the danger in this. This is 144 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 1: the lesson of the nineteen thirties. The point about Adolph 145 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: Hitler in the Nazis is that we mostly remember the 146 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: things they did between nineteen forty two and nineteen forty five, 147 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: and we remember them really through the discovery and the 148 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: filming them. These camps are liberated in nineteen forty five, 149 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: but the inherent lessons of this period of history are 150 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: not about what happened in nineteen forty two two to 151 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: nineteen forty five. In my view, there would happen between 152 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty three and nineteen forty two. The least interesting 153 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: part of that story is what happened when things went 154 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,959 Speaker 1: completely off the rails in nineteen forty two. In nineteen 155 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: forty five, when they did everything that they talked about 156 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: doing that they brought it to life. But how they 157 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: arrived at that point, I think is the essential most 158 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: important thing to know about sustainability. And by sustainability I 159 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: mean our continued presidents here on this planet as free people. 160 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: So with that long monologue on my part, when you 161 00:10:53,920 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: look at America with a friend's eyes from across the border, 162 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: why do you think so many people don't see what 163 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 1: we've seen and been screaming into the wind about. 164 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:11,199 Speaker 3: For nine years. 165 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 2: Well, because it's extraordinary. I mean, you know, you know 166 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: the old line that when you hear hoofs, you think 167 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 2: horse and not zebra, because zebras are uncommon and horses 168 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 2: are common. Here you're asking people to see the zebra 169 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 2: and they're like, well, that does make sense. I'm used 170 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 2: to presidents being you know, maybe a little dodgy. There's 171 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: lots we could say about the HW or the w. 172 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 2: Bush administration, and we could we could talk about, you know, 173 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: two thousand hanging chads, and we could talk about voting 174 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: machines in Ohio and four and so on and so forth. 175 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 2: But it's that's, you know, pales in comparison compared to 176 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 2: a coup attempt and authoritarian president, a president who might 177 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:57,559 Speaker 2: not peacefully concede the next election or leave who he's 178 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 2: probably a little age limited here, but in theory might 179 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 2: not even after two terms as well. I'm going to 180 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:03,719 Speaker 2: go for a third, you know, to hell what the 181 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 2: constitution says, I'm going for three. You know, FDR had 182 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 2: a bunch, why can't I? And people are like, well, 183 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 2: that just makes sense. It doesn't register what their concept, 184 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 2: their conception of America is. It doesn't it doesn't jive 185 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 2: with their their historical understanding of the country. And I'll 186 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 2: give you another example. I mean, you know, Trump says, well, 187 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 2: if we win, we might have to start locking up 188 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 2: our opponents, right like we might have to try Joe 189 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 2: Biden and we go. But you mentioned, you know, seriously 190 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 2: and literally go back to when he was talking about 191 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 2: locking up Hillary Clinton. There was like, wow, you know, 192 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 2: he's just he's just exaggerating. But do we really doubt 193 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 2: that in in you know, twenty twenty four, twenty twenty five, 194 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 2: he might not go after Biden or whomever the January 195 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 2: sixth Committee's talked about going after the jan sixth Committee 196 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 2: and actually lock those folks up. Now, the conception that 197 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 2: that American president might do that is extraordinary to Americans 198 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 2: because they think of that as Global South stuff, that's 199 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 2: Banana Republic stuff that doesn't happen in the United States. 200 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 2: They're the THEUS is the exist ample of democracy for 201 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: the rest of the world. But the fact is that 202 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 2: that's breaking down. The institutions are breaking down, and they've 203 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 2: been breaking down for a long time. This is a 204 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 2: different discussion, but I think the origins of that go 205 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,439 Speaker 2: back to Goldwater and Buckley in the in the fifties 206 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 2: and sixties. But that's a different discussion. But the institutions 207 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 2: are breaking down, and it's it's tough, both intellectually but 208 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: also emotionally psychologically for someone to reckon with that because 209 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 2: it's deeply unpleasant. Anyone who's ever put off going to 210 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 2: the dentist or going to the doctor or you know, 211 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 2: doing things on their to do list because they have 212 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: an emotional aversion to it. This is an extraordinary the 213 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 2: sort of ramped up example of that. Admitting that your 214 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: republic is in danger, admitting that your president might lock 215 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 2: up your opponents. 216 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 3: That's wild stuff. 217 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 2: And you're asking people to accept that, and they're just 218 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 2: not willing or able to do it until it's too late, right, 219 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 2: because this is the nineteen thirty three and nineteen forty 220 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 2: two thing, Like this is like nineteen thirty six, nineteen 221 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,719 Speaker 2: thirty seven, this is and what's the worst of it 222 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 2: is potentially to come. But getting people to leap ahead 223 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 2: there is really tough because it's just emotionally, psychologically and 224 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:04,959 Speaker 2: intellectually really tough to do. 225 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: When you think about this moment, Are you scared? 226 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 3: Yeah? 227 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 2: Yeah I am, And I'm scared on behalf of the 228 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: United States, both for Americans and for myself and this country. 229 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 2: I mean, the idea that it can't happen. We're past that. 230 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 2: We're into the idea of, well, what do we do 231 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 2: if it does happen? And in the US, I don't 232 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 2: know what the answer is. And I say this both 233 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 2: intellectually but also emotionally because I have friends who live 234 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 2: in the United States. My late father is from Newfane, 235 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 2: New York. I go to the United States to spend 236 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 2: time because of the country. I love to visit. I 237 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 2: feel a connection to the country, and I want the 238 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 2: best for Americans. And so I'm deeply worried about what 239 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 2: happens if someone like this gets elected, and then for 240 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 2: my own country. You know, eighty percent of Canadian trader 241 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 2: with the United States, the Defense Alliance along the WA 242 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 2: world's you know, largest undefended border is with the United States, 243 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 2: Norarad NATO, you know, were our supply chains are deeply 244 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 2: integrated for everything agriculture, auto, you know, automotive. If the 245 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 2: United States goes pear shaped, Canadona is going to go 246 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 2: along with it, and so and then who knows what 247 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 2: happens after that. And so I'm deeply concerned. And there's 248 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 2: a sort of sense of anxiety throughout country and certainly 249 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 2: among the federal government and some provincial governments in Canada 250 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 2: about what's coming next. And you know, the governments won't 251 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: say it expressly because the government can't come out and say, 252 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 2: oh my god, what are we going to do, but 253 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 2: they're nervous and they're trying to prepare for it, and 254 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 2: that makes me nervous too, because you know, look around 255 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 2: the world that we've got other problems as well, right 256 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 2: factor in Ukraine, factor in Israel and Gaza, factor in 257 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 2: climate change. You start to think, well, what happens then, 258 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 2: because we're really off of the races of everything starts 259 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 2: to go at once, and there's days where it feels 260 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 2: like that's exactly what's happening. 261 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: Talk to me about this scenario, which I don't think 262 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: is off the wall. There's a lot of gallows humor 263 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: about conversations with those of us who have been pretty 264 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: outspoken about when the knock on the door will come, 265 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: Are you leaving the country? 266 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 3: What would you do? 267 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: Talk to me about the Canadian reaction with someone like 268 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: me Canadian wife who spends north of one hundred and 269 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,479 Speaker 1: fifty days a year in the country as a guest, 270 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: presents himself at the border and asks for political asylum 271 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: because they will be persecuted politically, and most people don't 272 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: understand the rules of political asylum. And it was a 273 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: big deal back when I was a kid. He had 274 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: a high profile defector asked for asylum right out an 275 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: American embassy, out of Canadian embassy, you know, had a 276 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: British embassy, you know. But the idea of an American 277 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: citizen presenting himself at or herself at the Canadian border 278 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: and he's saying, I request asylum in Canada under Canadian 279 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: law because I've been targeted for political persecution in the 280 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 1: United States of America. 281 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 2: This is how extraordinary it is. I mean, you think 282 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 2: about that for you think about that for Joe Biden, right. 283 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 2: I mean again, this seems when you first think about it, 284 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 2: like a crazy thing to think about. But if Trump decides, well, 285 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 2: I'm going to try to lock up the former president 286 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 2: who I just defeat in the election because I think 287 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 2: he's a crook and he came after me and the 288 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 2: January or the members of the January six committee, you 289 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 2: could envision a scenario. There's not too many logical leaps 290 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 2: from where we are now where American politicians, incumbents or 291 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 2: former politicians have to flee the country because the president 292 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 2: is going after them. For Canada, it's a real tough 293 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 2: situation because one you risk retaliation from what would then 294 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 2: be let's be honest with the regime, not the administration. 295 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 2: By then, it's the regime and with whom you have 296 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 2: a trade relationship in a defense relationship. And Trump's already said, 297 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 2: you know, we might have to look at the USMC again. 298 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 2: Maybe you know we it was tough to renegotiate that 299 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: last time. I have to do it again. We're not 300 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: going to let these defense laggards, you know, exist anymore 301 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 2: under our umbrella. He's talking about NATO folks who aren't 302 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 2: spending states, who aren't spending two percent their GDP on defense. Well, 303 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 2: you know, they're on their own. We're not coming to 304 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 2: their aid if they're attacked by whomever, Russia or whatever 305 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 2: it might be. And Canada is thinking, well, my god, 306 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 2: what are we facing here? If we started omitting American 307 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 2: refugees a tariffs? Are we facing an end to free trade? 308 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 2: Are we facing an end to no at? Are we 309 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 2: facing who knows what? We have a safe third country 310 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: agreement with the United States, where in theory both countries 311 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 2: are safe places to land for refugees. Well, what happens 312 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 2: of all of a sudden the refugees are coming from 313 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 2: one of those two quote unquote safe countries? What does 314 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 2: that mean? For that. How about the free movement of 315 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 2: people across the border who live and work and love 316 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 2: both sides of the border throughout the year. What does 317 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 2: that mean it's an undefended border. Does it remain an 318 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 2: undefended border? I mean all of these things that we 319 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,959 Speaker 2: took for granted for well, I'll exaggerate a little bit, 320 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 2: since the last time we fought eighteen twelve, when Canada 321 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 2: was British and we burned down the White House, I'm 322 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 2: sort of take it for granted for decades. As the 323 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 2: countries have become closer and have integrated on trade and 324 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 2: on defense, on social relationships across the border. 325 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 3: What then, I don't know. 326 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 2: How do you prepare for something like that? And the 327 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 2: government isn't going to talk about it openly because they can't, 328 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 2: so I don't know what they're thinking either other than 329 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:39,959 Speaker 2: my gob we've got to do something. So I think 330 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 2: the scenario is plausible, if not granted, And I don't 331 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 2: think there's an obvious answer, especially since most of Canada's 332 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: eggs are in the US basket right eighty percent of 333 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 2: the trade relationship, for instance, What do you do then? 334 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 2: I really don't know. And that goes back to your 335 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 2: earlier question, like, am I scared? I am because I 336 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 2: don't have answers to those questions. But I also don't 337 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 2: think our politicians here have answers to them either other 338 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 2: than right now, which is, well, we're taking a team 339 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 2: Canada approach. We're working the border, We're working Washington, We're 340 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 2: working Texas and California and New York and Michigan, and 341 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,360 Speaker 2: we're working in industry and political contacts there because it's 342 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 2: not just the federal to federal government relationship here, it's 343 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 2: it's the provincial to state relationship. It's the federal to 344 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 2: state relationships that they're working. But is that going to 345 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 2: be enough? I don't know it. 346 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: Is it is when you do talk to ministers, parliamentarigance whatever. 347 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 3: I mean. 348 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: The approach is shockingly unsophisticated across the people of the 349 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: spectrum of Canadian leadership at an elective, at a parliamentary, 350 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: at a provincial, at a business level to deal with. 351 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 2: I think they're having a hard time wrapping either in 352 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 2: this like everyone else, what do you do? It's it's 353 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 2: unprecedented has become such a cheap word now it's been 354 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 2: cheap and because we just constantly use it, but in 355 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 2: part because things are just routinely unprecedented. Now, if I 356 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 2: can use a bit of ironic phrase, right, it's like, 357 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 2: we have routine unprecedented situations and what do we do? 358 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 2: And that and that again goes back to why I'm 359 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 2: just so so damn scared about this ultimately and anxious 360 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 2: about it because it's it's a big deal. 361 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: Now, let's talk about your observations of President Biden. People 362 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: go nuts when I when I talk about this, but 363 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: it is uh which I think bears out a couple 364 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: of things. We live in a We live in an 365 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: era where most adults have lost their capacity to hear 366 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: a contrary opinion. They just just cannot kind of tolerate it. 367 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 1: And that illiberal disposition does not bode well for the 368 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: continuance of of of liberal democracy right such such as 369 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: it is. Scarborough on his show said something I thought 370 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: is the most remarkable sentences of the of the year, 371 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 1: and it's gotten very little attention because it is so unprecedented, 372 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,239 Speaker 1: as you as you said, And what he said was 373 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: every person who comes on this show. And I was 374 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: an analyst at MSNBC for ten years, so I've made 375 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of appearances, and I consider Joe a friend. 376 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: He says, there's not a single person who says out 377 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: loud what they say on the in the green room 378 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: who's a member of the Democratic Party. None of them. Okay, 379 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 1: time out. What should we call that? What should we 380 00:22:58,480 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: call that? 381 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 3: I mean, is it? 382 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: Is it a misinformation program? It's the bullshit hour, the 383 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: gas lighting hours on the on the news. You have 384 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: a story yesterday talking about in Politico, uh unnamed Democratic 385 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: strategy says, I don't want to be that guy. No 386 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: one wants to be that guy right now who's saying 387 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 1: that that. 388 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 3: Things aren't going well out loud. 389 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: But but I come to this conclusion right just as 390 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,959 Speaker 1: just as a matter of logic, and this is this 391 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:37,719 Speaker 1: is kind of the basis of my small C conservatism, 392 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: such as it is. It's it's it's steeped in a pragmatism, 393 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:48,120 Speaker 1: and I just can't look away from the bs right. 394 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 3: In front of my face. 395 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: The great deficiency in the Democratic message is the reality 396 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: that there are hundreds of background quotes that I could 397 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: point you to over the last three years, strategists close 398 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: to the administration, close to the White House, senior White House, senior. 399 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 3: Democratic Party, whatever. 400 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 1: The anonymized prefix is top Democrats who wanted Trump to 401 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:23,959 Speaker 1: be to nominate because they thought he was easy street 402 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: and gave a rationale for Biden to break his implied 403 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: promise that he was not going to run for reelection 404 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: and try to serve from age eighty two to eighty six. 405 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 3: And so. 406 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: The truth of the matter is there is a more 407 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: important issue on the ballot than democracy, at least for Democrats, 408 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 1: and it's the ego of the man who wants to 409 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: run again. So here we set one hundred and fifty 410 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: nine days out the election wor tomorrow, Donald Trump would 411 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: win in twenty sixteen. In twenty and twenty, between both elections, 412 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: Donald Trump was ahead on the Real Clear Politics average 413 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: for a total of five days right over both election cycles. 414 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 3: Okay, he's been ahead every day this year. 415 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 1: So he has never been stronger politically one hundred and 416 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 1: fifty nine days out from the general election than he 417 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: is right now. This election is a choice, as they 418 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: always are. What is it that you perceive people are 419 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: reacting to about Joe Biden. I talk to a lot 420 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: of people and he just can't see it. And they 421 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: can't comprehend, right, which shows you to some degree the 422 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: narrowness of my fishing pond. 423 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 3: Right. But I can see it, right, do you see it? Oh? 424 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean so. In the piece, I was struggling 425 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 2: with this a bit because I was thinking, well, there's 426 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 2: lots of criticisms we could level about Biden, and people 427 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 2: do it, could say, well, it doesn't he didn't go 428 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 2: far enough on abortion rights. The Democrats talk an awful 429 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 2: lot about protecting abortion rights. It's but you know, they 430 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 2: were empowered into Obama. They didn't do it. They're empowered 431 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 2: to Biden. Now they haven't gone far enough. Did oh 432 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 2: climate Uh, you know, diddo. Especially for the left wing 433 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 2: of the party Israel in Gaza, they're not going to 434 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 2: far enough on Gaza. Maybe they're going too far in Ukraine, 435 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 2: depending on again, where you are in the party. There's 436 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 2: plenty I think part of the reaction to Biden. There's 437 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 2: obviously the age thing as well. There's plenty of concerns 438 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 2: about the age, his mental capacity. Even though I will 439 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,199 Speaker 2: say I think it's a fair point to say the 440 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 2: media focuses on Biden's age and mental fitness disproportionately compared 441 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 2: to Trump, who's clearly is also old and clearly a lunatic, 442 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 2: where you know you're you're comparing them, not even fairly 443 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 2: right that you ought to be comparing them, you know, 444 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 2: disproportionately by focusing on Trump, but they're sort of focusing 445 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 2: more on Biden. So there is that fair critique too. 446 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 3: Put a pin in that. We'll come back to that, 447 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 3: but keep going. 448 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 2: So I'm very curious because I'm curious to hear what 449 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 2: you think about that. But the ultimately, I think people 450 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:25,199 Speaker 2: are anxious, frustrated, tired, they're struggling. There's there's affordability crises 451 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 2: in the US, just like there is in Canada on groceries, 452 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 2: on affording a car, on affording a home. I was 453 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 2: reading and seeing an end today that they're you know, 454 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 2: some lenders are reintroducing zero down payment mortgages as if 455 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 2: two thousand and eight never happened because people are so desperate, 456 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 2: and people are you know, look to the incumbent and say, well, 457 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 2: you're to blame. And even when the economy does improve, 458 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 2: if people don't feel it, they're going to look to 459 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 2: the incumbent and say, well, obviously this is your fault. 460 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 2: You're the present You're meant to control everything from the 461 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 2: price of gas to the price of my house. And 462 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 2: I can't afford a house, and I can't afford gas, 463 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 2: and my job's lousy. And yeah, the administration is the 464 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 2: X number of jobs and I'm working two of them 465 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 2: to try to get through the day. So what have 466 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 2: you done for me? And then off we go? And 467 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 2: that's happening in Canada. True with the Trudeau government. People 468 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 2: are just tired. The alternative is a conservative weasel who's 469 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 2: going to make a mess of things. 470 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: But people are tired. 471 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 2: People are tired, and they're frustrated, and they're in a 472 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 2: hard time and they look to the incumbent. They're just 473 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 2: sick of it. So I think there's some of that, 474 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 2: and I think Biden eats a lot of that, some 475 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 2: of it fairly, some of it unfairly. But again I 476 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 2: come back to this, but the alternative is an authoritarian 477 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 2: So it's not a regular election. This isn't Mitt Romney. 478 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 2: I mean, like, you know, whatever I felt about Mitt Romney, 479 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, but this isn't Mitt Romney. This isn't 480 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 2: you know, this is something different, This is something it's 481 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 2: not even Ronald Reagan for all you know, I'm a lefty, 482 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 2: and obviously I have no love for Ronald Reagan. But 483 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,959 Speaker 2: this isn't even Ronald Reagan. This is something beyond that. 484 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 2: And then it's not even Goldwater. For God's sakes, Goldwater 485 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 2: compared to Trump would look like In fact, Goldwater compared 486 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 2: to a lot of these conservatives these days, would look 487 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 2: like a liberal. So you go back and listen to 488 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 2: some Goldwater talks with Buckleyer or whomever in the sixties, 489 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 2: and the guy sounds bracketing foreign policy for a second, 490 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 2: and the use of the bomb fairly well adjusted. Ditto Nixon, right, 491 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 2: And so that gives you a sense when you go 492 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 2: back in history, and I think going back to history 493 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 2: is really important. Here you get a sense of just 494 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 2: how long the water has been boiling and how long you, 495 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 2: as the frog, have been in there. As the dog 496 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 2: gets turned up, and you realize how extraordiny the moment's become. 497 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 2: So that's my rough assessment of where things are at. 498 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: So I think that per the media point, they're both 499 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: approximately the same age, and one of them appears feeble 500 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: and the other appears unhinged, and the media can only 501 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: process one of the tip if you have a candidate 502 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: who can't communicate, the stakes are exsistantial, how does that 503 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: inform your strategy? 504 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 3: What do you do? 505 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: How do you perceive that as an intellectual exercise? 506 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 2: I mean, farm for me to give advice to anybody, 507 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 2: but you know I would I go to example in Canada, 508 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 2: And so in nineteen eighty Pierre Trudeau the Prime minister 509 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 2: at the time, and actually he had just lost, but 510 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 2: he'd been the prime minister for since sixty eight, and 511 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 2: the father of the current Prime minister incidentally is running 512 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 2: for reelection. He's wildly unpopular. People are just not having it. 513 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 2: And the Liberal Party ran something they basically called air Trudeau. 514 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 2: They just kept him in the air all the time. 515 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 2: They're like, we're gonna let other people do this, and 516 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 2: they defeated the Conservatives and won a massive majority and 517 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 2: government for four more years. Part of it is and 518 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 2: the Democrats have been doing a little bit this trying 519 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 2: to keep up in a way, I'm not convinced that's 520 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 2: the worst strategy, provided that someone can come and sub in. 521 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 2: I was a little surprised to see that they were 522 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 2: keen to have debates with Trump. I'm curious to think 523 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 2: to hear what you think about thought that was a 524 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 2: good idea, because I think the thing about Trump is 525 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 2: he is an authoritarian. He's a massive threat to democracy. 526 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 2: He's unhinged, he's awful, But in our heart of hearts, 527 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 2: he's sort of entertaining and he's kind of funny, and 528 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 2: that plays in the spectacle of American and for that matter, 529 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 2: Canadian politics in this century. You know, think back to 530 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 2: Matt Tayebe's Insantan Clown President book, and like he kind 531 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 2: of caught that idea properly early on, which is this 532 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 2: is a circus and this is a clown. But people 533 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 2: love a circus and people love a clown, and there's 534 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 2: something you know. Trump comes down and says Sleepy Joe, 535 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 2: and everyone's just clapping out the rallies and they love it. 536 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 2: That mobilizes people. 537 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: I think human civilization is deeply imperiled because as a 538 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: species we seem to be losing our capacity to hold 539 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: on to At the same time contradictory thoughts, right and 540 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: appreciating Trump is to appreciate that he is the most 541 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: prolific liar to ever hold political office in America while 542 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: simultaneously being the most. 543 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 3: Honest president we've ever had. 544 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: And if you can't understand that, if you can't understand that, 545 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: you can't conceivably come up with a strategy to attack 546 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: and defeat the guy. But the entire rhythm of the 547 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: fall campaign is just fundamentally changed. And so the Biden 548 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: campaign got him on the debate wills right, Hey, you 549 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: said any time any place they played the card. Right, 550 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: They're seated, They're in an antiseptic room. The debate moderators 551 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: can kill the camera, they can kill the mics whatever. 552 00:32:55,320 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: The question, though, is does that environment's so advantaged Joe 553 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: Biden that is going to help him achieve the outcome 554 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: he needs to achieve against all the risks And I'm 555 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: not sure, And I'm not sure it does. And so 556 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: if he has a bad debate performance, and most presidents 557 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: ho bad debate performance is in their first debate, because 558 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 1: most presidents don't like being told to study and practice 559 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: and prepare by their political staffs, who they like to 560 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: remind Hey, if you guys were so fucking smart, why 561 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: am I the president? Biden says at least six to 562 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: seven times a week to his staff for real, you get. 563 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 2: The picture, Yeah, I honest to god, it's funny because 564 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 2: I think about these debates and think, you know, you 565 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 2: could do all the preparation. You could play it straight. 566 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 2: You can pretend it's nineteen eighties or even the nineteen nineties. 567 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 2: And you know, remember when George H. W. Bush got 568 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 2: dragged for checking his watch. You know, remember that was 569 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 2: a big scandal. Right like, now, none of this is 570 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 2: it would even register. You can do all of that, 571 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 2: and then Trump walks in and throws a one liner 572 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 2: and then where are you? And I remember in the 573 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 2: primaries when he was with Jeb Bush and Bush had 574 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 2: felt that trumpets somehow slight at his mother, and he 575 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 2: takes a run at Trump. Its basically, how dare you 576 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 2: talk about my mother? And Trump says, WHOA, No, No, 577 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 2: your mother's great. She should be running. And I'm like, 578 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 2: that's genuinely a great funny line. It throws Bush off 579 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 2: his game, and I think that's what we're gonna see, 580 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 2: you know, in twenty twenty four. And that's a powerful thing. 581 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 2: And this goes back to your point about Trump simultaneously 582 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 2: being a giant bullshitter and speaking the truth. Is that 583 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 2: he doesn't put on airs. He and I think that 584 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 2: resonates with a lot of people who are sick ostogie 585 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 2: politicians who they feel are condescending to them. This guy 586 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 2: kind of walks up and just spouts out, and it 587 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 2: reminds you kind of like your drunk uncle at the 588 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 2: barbecue who you love. And that's really powerful. And I 589 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 2: think breaking those norms is simultaneously really scary but also 590 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 2: a little bit refreshing in a way that you know, 591 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 2: forced us to try to hold those two ideas in 592 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 2: our head at once. And we're seeing a little that 593 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 2: in Canada, incidentally, like there's a little bit of of 594 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 2: that same energy creeping north with the Conservatives are who 595 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 2: are running like a slightly similar campaign that's aimed at 596 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 2: resonating with working class people and obviously working because here 597 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 2: the Conservatives are up twenty points. 598 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, when I'm in Toronto and I'm with friends, 599 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: the truth is that those friends in Toronto travel to 600 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: the Canadian hinter lands as much as my friends in 601 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: New York, right, So it's not not apparent to them 602 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 1: that if you cross the border in Montana, you're going 603 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: to see as many Fuck Trudeau flags flying from the 604 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: back of trucks across the province. As you are going 605 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: to see, you know, go Brandon flags on the on. 606 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 3: The you know, on this other side of the border. Yep, 607 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 3: you know, no, no doubt. 608 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: I'm one of these people who that I hold out 609 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: very little chance as someone who loves Canada, and I 610 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: do deeply that Canada remains a independent, democratic redoubt with 611 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: fascist America to it's to its south. I think the 612 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,320 Speaker 1: I think the chances of that are are are load 613 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: to dent. 614 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,320 Speaker 2: We can't even procure we can't even buy a submarine 615 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 2: this country. 616 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:27,359 Speaker 3: First of all. 617 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 2: I mean, if it's a national defense question, forget it. 618 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 2: This country takes twenty years to buy a dentist submarine 619 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 2: from the UK. So we don't stand much of a chance. 620 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: That is an amazing issue that Trump intuitively latched onto. Uh. 621 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: That the that the whole country agrees, which is this 622 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 1: notion you don't pay her two percent, right, we're out 623 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: like it's your Costco card. But but Americans have a 624 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: lot of resentment towards. 625 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 3: That, you know, for you know, all over all over 626 00:36:59,040 --> 00:36:59,359 Speaker 3: the world. 627 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 1: Right you look at right Canadian you know military is 628 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: not capable of landing a peace keeping force in in Tahiti. 629 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: Uh you look at the situation globally abroad. And I 630 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: was in the Czech Republic a couple of weeks back, 631 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: and uh, I was with a buddy of mine and 632 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: we watched the changing of the guard outside the presidential Palace. 633 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 3: And my friend we had a driver with us. 634 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: He uh, he made he made the point, he said 635 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,360 Speaker 1: that the Czech Palace guards did not look uh as tight, 636 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: let's say, as a United States Marine might look in 637 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: there in their uniform. And and the driver's response, at, ah, 638 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: those guys aren't for fighting. 639 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 3: He goes United, he goes, he goes back to he 640 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 3: wasn't junkie does the United States will defend us. We're in, 641 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 3: We're in, We're in NATO, and we were we were 642 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 3: sitting there. 643 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:51,840 Speaker 1: He doesn't know who we are. He doesn't know we 644 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: worked in politics. And you know, if he just kind 645 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: of looking at each other and you're just like, hmm, 646 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: not so sure you know that that he's with where 647 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 1: the with where the country is on some of these 648 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: you know, on some of these questions. And at the 649 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: end of the day, if forty the country doesn't have 650 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: four hundred dollars cash available, they're going to be They're 651 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 1: gonna be susceptible to some old fashioned demagoguery of the 652 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 1: type that Donald Trump. 653 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 3: Is serving up. 654 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and a lot of folks pretend as if the 655 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 2: US has no populist history, as if the country doesn't 656 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 2: have a very long populist history, a very effective populist history, 657 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 2: that that is just sitting there waiting for someone to 658 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 2: pick up. And I think, you know, Trump is so 659 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 2: good at playing a game and the Democrats have been 660 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,760 Speaker 2: less good at it that it makes a big difference. 661 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 2: In Canada, it's the same thing. The Conservatives are very 662 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 2: good at playing the populist game, that the Liberals are 663 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 2: not so good at it, and the NDP who's left 664 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 2: who are left in the Liberals are somehow also even 665 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 2: worse at it. And so because the four hundred dollars 666 00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 2: you mentioned, the four hundred dollars thing, I'm like, well, 667 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 2: that kind of makes plans everything, doesn't it, right? I 668 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:03,719 Speaker 2: mean to me, not to oversimplify or to do the 669 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 2: Carville it's the economy, stupid, But if forty percent of 670 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 2: the country's got four hundred bucks in their pocket and 671 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 2: if their car breaks down they can't afford to fix it, 672 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,879 Speaker 2: does the rest really matter to them, probably not. And 673 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time up here trying to 674 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 2: convince the center and the left that if if you 675 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,240 Speaker 2: can't get past that, you know, Canadians living paycheck to paycheck, 676 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 2: they can't, they can't afford a car, they can't you know, 677 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 2: put their kids through school, they can't go to a restaurant. 678 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 2: Then the rest of it doesn't really matter. They're not 679 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 2: thinking ahead to what about climate change or what about 680 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 2: potential fascism on the door. Then they go like, I 681 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 2: can't get through the day. It's like, well, we got 682 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 2: to solve that. People have got to be able to 683 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 2: get through the day without taking a zero percent mortgage 684 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:42,840 Speaker 2: and then losing their house ten years later when they 685 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 2: have to refinance or they lose their job. Like, you've 686 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 2: got to wrap your head around that. And I like, 687 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 2: where are the political elites wrapping the head around that? 688 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 2: I don't see it. And it's again terrifying. 689 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: It's a time where people are mad. And that guy, 690 00:39:55,920 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: that woman, you know for country four hundred, they're not 691 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: living in a democracy. I don't have any choice, I 692 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: don't have any agent. If you can't open a bank account, 693 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 1: you know, live in a democracy. 694 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 3: And so I just know that. 695 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: When you're looking at Donald Trump with the size of 696 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,760 Speaker 1: the crowd he had in the Bronx, and you're looking 697 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: at the common president and vice president together in inner 698 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: city Philadelphia, right fighting over the black vote one hundred 699 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 1: and fifty nine days from the election as an incommon president. 700 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 3: Not a good look at all. 701 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 2: No, it's terrible, And I'm so glad you mentioned that 702 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,240 Speaker 2: about the rights. Whenever I give a talk about democracy, Christy, 703 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 2: because I'm I'm trained as a democratic theorist, that was 704 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 2: my previous life, and I asked the audience, if you 705 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 2: have a right but you don't have the capacity to 706 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 2: exercise that right, do you really have it? And I 707 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 2: think the answer is no. Like you have a right 708 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 2: to a house, no one can stop you, but you 709 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 2: can't afford a house, then you functionally you don't have 710 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 2: a right to a house. It's like, well, you have 711 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 2: a right to vote, but if your boss is breaking 712 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 2: the lobbys saying yeah you can go, you can leave 713 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 2: to go vote, but don't come back, and you've got 714 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 2: no recourse to really challenge that, then you don't even 715 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 2: have the right to vote, which is true for a 716 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 2: lot of people who are worried about losing their jobs 717 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 2: if they take off for a couple of minutes. And 718 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 2: that's just true. So so many people on both sides 719 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 2: of the border who are at the mercy of their employer, 720 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 2: who at the mercy of the they're scrounging day to 721 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 2: day to try to get through it. They're at the 722 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 2: mercy of government in a lot of cases, and they 723 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,280 Speaker 2: feel like they like, like you said, they've got no options, 724 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 2: they've got no rights function they don't. And that's why 725 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 2: the material questions, the economic questions, to me are always fundamental. 726 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 2: And I'm just not seeing answers because you know, like 727 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:34,920 Speaker 2: turn around, you got to dial up at and t 728 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 2: of rizing, and like that's your experience of the world, 729 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,880 Speaker 2: and it's miserable right in Canada. Here it's Rogers or 730 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 2: Bell and I just I see no real deep answers. 731 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 2: But you know what Trump's really good at. He's really 732 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:49,839 Speaker 2: good at ralling people up and telling them who to blame, 733 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 2: even though he's really terrible at solving those problems. And 734 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,880 Speaker 2: I think that's the great grift of the right in 735 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 2: the US and into something in Canada too, is that 736 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 2: they're really good with riling up people over this stuff 737 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 2: fairly in a sense the really bad at solving the problem, 738 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,319 Speaker 2: but the riling up does the work. And then after that, 739 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,399 Speaker 2: good luck and that again I'm like, okay, well, where's 740 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,919 Speaker 2: the center, where's the left? Why can't you both rile 741 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 2: folks up and solve their problems? Like what are you 742 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:16,720 Speaker 2: doing here? 743 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,839 Speaker 1: That is the great variable right in the equation is that? 744 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,879 Speaker 1: And it goes back to beginning in the conversation that 745 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,799 Speaker 1: we can see the danger. Maybe more people can see 746 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:37,320 Speaker 1: the ganger than saw it three years ago, four years ago, whatever, 747 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: but it may not be enough. And people see the 748 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,239 Speaker 1: danger when they see it, and usually they see it 749 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: when it becomes unavoidable. And we just don't know where 750 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: that spot is other than it not yet and something 751 00:42:54,600 --> 00:43:00,040 Speaker 1: terrible is going to transpire to wake people up to 752 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: what this is. And then you know, the awakening of 753 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: free people in a in a in a righteous anger, 754 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,239 Speaker 1: you know, has changed the world over and over and 755 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 1: over and over again. And the United States is a 756 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: defiant nation, uh, filled with defiant people. And so I 757 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:24,960 Speaker 1: don't think that apathy UH in the face of overt 758 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 1: aggression and punishment, if it were to happen which I 759 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: think it could happen and might happen and will happen. 760 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,719 Speaker 1: I suppose if he's if he's elected, it'll be met 761 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,840 Speaker 1: with a with the terrible, you know, with a with a, 762 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,880 Speaker 1: with a with a it'll be met with a response. 763 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 3: And and you don't know what that is. 764 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,400 Speaker 1: But I but look, I I you know, I'm someone 765 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,200 Speaker 1: who says every day that we're in a constitutional crisis 766 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 1: already because we have two major parties. In one of 767 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,839 Speaker 1: the parties as an institution is opted out and has 768 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: declared they can't lose elections anymore. 769 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,359 Speaker 3: So that's that's the bedrock of the civilization. And if 770 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 3: you deny that choice, you wreck the civilization. And I 771 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,560 Speaker 3: just don't see any way out of that logic. 772 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,279 Speaker 2: Yep, I agree entirely. And to go back to an 773 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,719 Speaker 2: earlier point, it's what terrifies me. And I think back 774 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,280 Speaker 2: to a moment where a journalist here in Canada, Andrew 775 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 2: Coin or you know, mentioning that in whatever it was, 776 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,240 Speaker 2: seventy four, seventy three, the Supreme Court says to Nixon, 777 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,440 Speaker 2: hand over the tapes, and Nixon hands over the tapes. 778 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,239 Speaker 2: In two thousand, the thing goes to the election goes 779 00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:36,600 Speaker 2: to the Supreme Court and Gore declines to create a 780 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,400 Speaker 2: constitutional crisis by pushing the boundaries of this thing. Trump 781 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 2: would never, never hesitate to push and break the constitutional 782 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 2: boundaries of anything. He's not handing over tape. Right, He's 783 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,200 Speaker 2: going to fight everything tooth and nail to the end 784 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 2: and then famenta and insurrection. That's changed in two decades 785 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,759 Speaker 2: in the US, and that's utterly frightening. Until folks can 786 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,920 Speaker 2: wrap their heads around that, I don't know what's. 787 00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:57,240 Speaker 3: Going to happen. 788 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:02,719 Speaker 1: My last thought is, and Mike deep wre is that 789 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 1: the country can handle a corrupt executive. It can handle 790 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: a corrupt Congress, can handle a corrupt Supreme Court, can 791 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,919 Speaker 1: handle all three at the same time, and that that's 792 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 1: kind of an organ in failure, a systemic shutdown. And 793 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,400 Speaker 1: the good news I suppose in all of this is 794 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 1: that the United States in twenty twenty four is the 795 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,799 Speaker 1: most complex society that there has ever been in all 796 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,400 Speaker 1: of human civilization. I think here's more than ninety four 797 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:46,120 Speaker 1: thousand governmental elected entities in the country, and they all 798 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,680 Speaker 1: have at least a couple of lawyers working for them. 799 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,840 Speaker 1: So four years is a long time to end the world. 800 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:57,520 Speaker 1: It's a short time in a lot of ways. Who 801 00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,160 Speaker 1: knows what will happen, but the fight will not be over. 802 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,759 Speaker 1: On January twentieth, if Donald Trump is back in the 803 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,239 Speaker 1: White House, I for one will not be asking to 804 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,360 Speaker 1: enter Canada for a political asylum. 805 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 3: I'll be in front of. 806 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,719 Speaker 1: The gates where the tanks are rolling out, and I 807 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,520 Speaker 1: know I won't be alone. But thank you so much 808 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: for your time, and I hope we can have you 809 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,719 Speaker 1: back for your insights as we get closer and closer. 810 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:23,920 Speaker 3: It's always good. 811 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,920 Speaker 1: To see the United States for friendly eyes outside of 812 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:28,120 Speaker 1: our borders. 813 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 3: Thank you for your. 814 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:30,480 Speaker 2: Time, Thanks so much for having me. Maybe I'll join 815 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 2: you at the gates. 816 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:32,040 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 817 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,040 Speaker 1: I'm Steve Schmidt. This is the warning and I invite 818 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,560 Speaker 1: you to join. Subscribe on our sub stack on our 819 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:43,759 Speaker 1: YouTube channel, follow us. Welcome to the community.