1 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope 2 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. Hey there are podcast listeners. It's Mango here. 3 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: You know. Back when I was in seventh grade, I 4 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: got the chance to go to the Vatican in Italy 5 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: and as we were walking through just the opening, I 6 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: got to turn to my right and I saw one 7 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: of Michelangelo's pietas. I think he's done four paetas. This 8 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: wasn't the most famous one, but I was insanely moved 9 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: by it. Now, I'm not a particularly religious person, but 10 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: something about how he knew that the marble was telling 11 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: him that this story was inside it. And it is 12 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: just so emotional, this image of Christ laying across Mary's lap, 13 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: and it's just really really moving. And I couldn't understand 14 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: how much emotion could be held in a rock, essentially, 15 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: And when I went home, I started playing with charcoals 16 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: and I tried to capture that image and I just 17 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: couldn't get it out of my head. Just the way 18 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: art moved me to something that was near tears, and 19 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: you know that story. It actually gets me thinking about 20 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: how much the arts have affected my life, not just 21 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: this Pieta, but all the books and music and movies 22 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: and visual art I loved, and also the art I've 23 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: made myself, whether it's writing or drawing, or playing the piano, 24 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: which I really love playing in bands, also making podcasts 25 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: with my friends Skyline Drive especially, was this really meaningful 26 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: thing to me, and I don't know who who I 27 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: would be without the stuff. And I started to wonder 28 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: if there's a scientific way of looking at the arts 29 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: and measuring its impact on us. And it actually turns 30 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: out there is, and this British researcher named Daisy Fancourt 31 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: has actually written this extraordinary new book called Art Cure, 32 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: The Science of How the Arts Save Lives. In it, 33 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: she makes the case that the arts aren't just a 34 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 1: nice little diversion, they're an essential part of human life 35 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: and public health. Now, Daisy was kind enough to sit 36 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: down with producer Mary to tell us all about her 37 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: work and this story of the time she and Brian 38 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: Eno tried to make hospitals just a little better for 39 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: patients and it even gets into some concrete recommendations for 40 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 1: how we can all use the arts to improve our health. 41 00:02:45,960 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: And it's really incredible conversation. So let's dive in. 42 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 2: So I am here with Daisy Fancourt. She is a 43 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 2: professor of psychobiology and epidemiology at University College London, and 44 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 2: she is the author of an incredible new book. It 45 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 2: is out now and it is called art Cure, The 46 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 2: Science of How the Arts Save Lives. 47 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 3: Daisy, thank you so much for joining me. 48 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 4: It is a pleasure to be with you. Thank you. 49 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: There's so much to unpack with this book, but I 50 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 2: just want to start with something kind of basic, which 51 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 2: is what do we mean when we refer to the arts. 52 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 3: A lot of people hear that. 53 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 2: Phrase, they probably think about like going to the ballet, 54 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 2: playing the saxophone, going to a museum. But you write 55 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: that there are actually a lot of activities in our 56 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: lives that contain what you call artistic ingredients. 57 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 3: I love that phrase. 58 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 2: So what are artistic ingredients and where can we find them? 59 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 5: These are the components that are common across lots of 60 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 5: different expersperiences that we often call arts. So things like creativity, imagination, 61 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 5: multisensory stimulation, things that we might perceive sometimes as beautiful, 62 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,839 Speaker 5: other kind of esthetic components as well. And what's really 63 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 5: nice is that this kind of definition that looks at 64 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 5: these core common ingredients includes many of those things that 65 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 5: you list, these sort of common things performing arts, visual arts, 66 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 5: literary arts. But it also allows us to include things 67 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 5: like culinary arts like baking, for example, and decorating cakes, 68 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 5: or horticultural arts like growing and arranging flowers. And I 69 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 5: think this expanded definition of creativity can stop it being 70 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 5: quite so highbrow and actually speak to a lot of 71 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 5: the practices that people really love as part of their 72 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 5: day to day lives. 73 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 2: So people might be doing arts and not even really 74 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 2: realizing it exactly. 75 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 5: And I really think we have to celebrate all of 76 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 5: those different creative practices because I don't think there's anything 77 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 5: that's really going to tell us that baking a beautiful 78 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 5: cake is that different to making a beautiful clay sculpture. 79 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 5: I mean, they're so similar in terms of the tactile 80 00:04:58,720 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 5: and esthetic dimensions. 81 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: Baking a cake is very hard. Actually I say this 82 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: as an amateur baker. It's very difficult. I would never 83 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: make it. In the bakeof Tent, I will tell you that. 84 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 2: So in the book, you talk about how there are 85 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: so many benefits to the arts, but I want to 86 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 2: start by talking about mental health. You describe so many 87 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 2: studies where arts engagement helps people living with mental illness, 88 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: even severe conditions like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder. And what's really 89 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 2: interesting to me is that you found that benefit persisting 90 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 2: even after you controlled for other factors that could influence 91 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 2: people's health. And you write about an incredible woman named 92 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 2: Debs whose mental illness really almost cost her her life 93 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 2: and taking an art class and then developing an art 94 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 2: practice kind of set her on the path to becoming healthier. 95 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 2: What's going on. I mean, it's kind of common sense, 96 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 2: right that doing art can reduce your stress, But it's 97 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: actually way more complicated than that, right, it is. 98 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 5: And I think we can kind of group this into 99 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 5: different ways that the art support mental health. Because there 100 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 5: are some people who've got let's say, mild or moderate 101 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 5: depression or anxiety, and that's actually a population where we 102 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 5: know that the evidence base for medication really isn't that great, 103 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 5: and lots of people don't find benefits or. 104 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 4: They experience a lot of side effects. 105 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 5: But actually the studies suggest that arts engagement for those 106 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 5: populations actually have benefits with the same kind of effect 107 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 5: size that we see, but without those side effects. And 108 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 5: then there are other people who might have more severe 109 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 5: mental illnesses, where yes, there are medications and psychological therapies 110 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,239 Speaker 5: that can help, but those aren't really treating the whole person. 111 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 5: And that's where the arts can be so vital. It's 112 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 5: actually providing another way for people to help tackle their 113 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 5: symptoms and to find ways of living and coping with 114 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 5: their mental illness. And some of these ways are neurological, 115 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 5: you know, arts engagement actually engages pleasure and reward networks 116 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 5: in the brain and helps us to experience higher levels 117 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 5: of dopamine like pleasure hormones. Some of them are more 118 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 5: to do with psychological processes, arts engagement helping us to 119 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 5: have a sense of autonomy of self, identify a way 120 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 5: of expressing our emotions. And some of them are even 121 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 5: underlying biological effects arts engagement reducing stress hormones and even 122 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 5: reducing levels of inflammation which are so interlinked with symptoms 123 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 5: like depression. 124 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 2: And we're going to talk more about that inflammation point 125 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 2: later because I found that really interesting as well. But 126 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 2: again with the mental health angle, there can be a 127 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 2: preventative effect, right that people who engage in arts are 128 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 2: actually less. 129 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 3: Likely to develop depression. So how does that work? 130 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 5: This is such an exciting area of research is where 131 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 5: I spend a lot of my day to day work, 132 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 5: is this field of epidemiology. So these day to day 133 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 5: behaviors that many of us have in our lives. I 134 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 5: started wondering about ten years ago with some colleagues, could 135 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 5: these actually help to reduce our risk of developing depression 136 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 5: in the first place through building our psychological resilience and 137 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 5: helping us to manage our emotions. And actually, we can 138 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 5: use these massive data sets called cohort studies, which track 139 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 5: thousands of people over their lives, looking at all of 140 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 5: their behaviors, their health outcomes, and lots of these cohort 141 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 5: studies included questions on arts, so that's exactly what we've done, 142 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 5: and we've found that over time, people who engage more 143 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 5: in the arts have this reduced risk, in fact, nearly 144 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 5: half the risk of developing depression over the next ten years, 145 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 5: even when we've taken account of their demographics, their wealth, 146 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 5: their other aspects of their lifestyle, even their genetics. And 147 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 5: this is so exciting because it's really helping us to 148 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 5: value those day to day arts practices for the long 149 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 5: term benefits they can have for us. 150 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 2: And this is something that human beings have been doing 151 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 2: for a long time. Obviously, the arts are one of 152 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 2: the sort of oldest things about being human. We've been 153 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 2: telling stories, we've been painting on caves, right So in 154 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 2: a way, the arts practice has actually influenced how we 155 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 2: evolved and survived as a species. 156 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 5: Right completely, and actually right from the beginning of the 157 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 5: earliest records we have of the arts, we believe they 158 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 5: were used as part of health and healing rituals. And 159 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,839 Speaker 5: if you look back across every major medical tradition from 160 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 5: around the world, you find the arts discussed in the 161 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 5: early writings from that tradition. So this is far from 162 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 5: a new idea, but we now have the benefit of 163 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 5: really new, rigorous scientific evidence actually quantifying those benefits. 164 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 2: That's actually one of the really fun things about your 165 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 2: book is you do talk about how you do the work. 166 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 2: You talk about these data sets and these studies and 167 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 2: the challenges of doing this kind of research. What are 168 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 2: some of the things that you've run up against that 169 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 2: you had to sort of overcome just from a practical 170 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 2: point of view in trying to gather all of this 171 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 2: data about the arts. 172 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 5: I think we always have this tension between wanting to 173 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 5: get data in a way that is as sort of 174 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 5: rigorously controlled as possible, like laboratory experiments for example, where 175 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 5: we've got these controlled environments, but at the same time 176 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 5: we want it to have a bearing on the real world. 177 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:45,199 Speaker 4: And this is a real. 178 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 5: Challenge because if you're someone who loves Taylor Swift, for example, 179 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 5: then you'll know that the idea of lying in an 180 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 5: MRI tube whilst you listen to her music is completely 181 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 5: different to standing in an arena watching her perform live. 182 00:09:57,559 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 5: And I think this is one of the big challenges 183 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 5: that we're still g with, is how we can actually 184 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 5: capture those live experiences. But there's so much happening now 185 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 5: with wearable monitors, ways of actually tracking in real time 186 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 5: what's happening within our brains, and even with things like 187 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 5: smart watches how it's affecting us physiologically. And this is 188 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 5: really like opening a whole new box and window into 189 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 5: about understanding about the health benefits of the arts. 190 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 3: Are you a Swiftie? 191 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 4: Of course I am, who's not. 192 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: I think it would be amazing if on her next 193 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 2: tour everyone in the audience is wearing some sort of 194 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 2: special biomarker for you for your research. Maybe Taylor herself 195 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 2: could wear one. 196 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 3: That is what I heard. 197 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 4: Should we pitch this? We can pitch this to HERR. 198 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 2: Taylor, if you're listening, and I know you are, please 199 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 2: call Daisy. Let's make this happen. I would love to 200 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 2: see it. But so, actually that brings up an interesting question, 201 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 2: right Taylor versus her audience? Are there differences in terms 202 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 2: of the arts benefits watching versus doing? Oh? 203 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 5: Yes, I mean I think this depends whether we're talking 204 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 5: about us doing it for the fun or whether we're 205 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 5: talking about professional musicians. And actually the swift the idea 206 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 5: isn't quite so out there because we actually did that 207 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 5: in some experiments in the UK a few years ago. 208 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 5: People who were going to concerts were actually presented with 209 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 5: saliva tubes under their seats and they had to spit 210 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 5: into them before the concert and during the interval, and 211 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 5: we were actually able to show what was happening with 212 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 5: their stress hormones decreases in a whole panel of stress 213 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 5: hormones from watching that concert. But actually for the performers 214 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 5: it was quite a different story. Like the professional musicians 215 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 5: who were performing actually had really elevated stress when they 216 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 5: were starting off with that performance. So I think that's 217 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 5: one distinction if it's just us in our personal lives, 218 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 5: though often it doesn't matter too much if we're participating 219 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 5: or engaging in some other way like watching something or 220 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 5: walking around a gallery for example, they can still have 221 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 5: so many benefits. I think it only depends on which 222 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 5: kind of health outcome you're hoping for, because if you're 223 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 5: looking at things like some kind of physical health outcome 224 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 5: like increased mobility reduced pain, for example, sometimes having that 225 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 5: ingredient of mobility can be really critical, or something like 226 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 5: dance that actually helps you to have that physical activity. 227 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: Hey everyone, we've got to take a quick break, but 228 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: we'll be right back with more part time genius. 229 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 2: One of my favorite stories in the book is about 230 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: the project you did with Brian Eno. So, Taylor Daisy 231 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 2: has worked with Brian Eno. I mean, you know, and 232 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: you were in a hospital working with surgical patients, and 233 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 2: this was just extraordinary. You found that using a simple 234 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 2: app to compose music pre surgery made the whole process easier, 235 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 2: including getting needles placed for anesthesia, which I know can 236 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 2: be a very difficult and time consuming thing. But this 237 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 2: is the part that blew my mind. You found that 238 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 2: engaging with the music app before surgery actually helped with 239 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 2: pain levels after surgery. 240 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 3: How is that even possible? I mean, it sounds like magic. 241 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 5: Honestly, this is actually one of it's had so many 242 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 5: different studies now showing that music in that sort of 243 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 5: surgical area, whether you're listening before surgery or during surgery, 244 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 5: actually helps to reduce people's anxiety levels. And in fact, 245 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 5: a number of the randomized trials have compared the effects 246 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 5: of recorder music versus anti anxiety medications like benzodiazepines and 247 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 5: actually found the music is more effective at reducing people's 248 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 5: stress levels, but of course it's way cheaper and it 249 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 5: also doesn't bring the same kinds of side effects. And 250 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 5: we see that this reduced anxiety is really key to 251 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 5: people's experience of pain afterwards. If people are calmer before surgery, 252 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 5: they tend to have much better recovery outcomes. They'll have 253 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 5: even faster wound healing as well as reduced levels of 254 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 5: pain and better recovery longer term. So these studies have 255 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 5: shown people need fewer opioids after surgery, and this is 256 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 5: so valuable I think to be knowing this kind of 257 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 5: evidence because in an age where we unfortunately have opioid 258 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 5: crises ongoing, finding that actually music could be something that 259 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 5: would reduce the volume of opioids people need, That could 260 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 5: be the difference between people then not actually necessarily becoming 261 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 5: dependent on those later with like really major outcomes long 262 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 5: term for those individuals. 263 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 2: I'm wondering if you could actually just quickly tell the 264 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 2: story of how you came to connect with Brian Eno 265 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 2: and how this project took shape, because I've never, honestly 266 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 2: never really heard of anything like it in a medical setting. 267 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 5: It was really wonderful. Brian Nino has spoken publicly about 268 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 5: a car accident, and he's hit by a car a 269 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 5: number of years ago, and whilst he was recovering in hospital, 270 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 5: he spoke about having some music on really quietly in 271 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 5: the background, so low he couldn't really quite hear it, 272 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 5: and it was this sort of ambient noise to him, 273 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 5: and that gave birth to this idea of ambient music, 274 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 5: which of course he's become so globally famous for. And 275 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 5: it was only years later he actually started doing some 276 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 5: work with hospitals again, and I was really lucky that 277 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 5: the hospital I worked at, Chelsea and Westminster hospital in 278 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 5: London was one that he worked with, so he developed 279 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 5: this absolutely beautiful ambient music alongside this incredible electronic kind 280 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 5: of light box that had these very slowly moving images. 281 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 5: It's completely mesmerizing, and we ran these studies placing this 282 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,119 Speaker 5: in the booths that people wait in before their surgeries 283 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 5: and could see this instant physiological reduction in their stress. 284 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 5: One of the patients I was with one day had 285 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 5: been having a panic attack, saying she couldn't have her surgery, 286 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 5: and we put her in the brian enobooth and within 287 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 5: minutes she was just sound asleep. She went ahead and 288 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 5: had the surgery. So it was a really amazing project, 289 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 5: something so simple with such big effects. 290 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 2: You talked a moment ago about inflammation. Chronic inflammation is 291 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 2: really at the root of a lot of major health problems. 292 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 2: So what are the mechanisms by which engaging with or 293 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 2: practicing the arts can reduce that inflammation. 294 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 5: So I've run a number of studies, as have colleagues 295 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 5: of mind, looking at what happens when we engage in 296 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 5: the arts to inflammatory markers, particularly markers called cytokines, which 297 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 5: are chemical messengers that communicate between ourselves and basically lower 298 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 5: or increase our levels of inflammation. And we've actually found 299 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 5: that when people engage in activities like singing or dancing, 300 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 5: like invigorating arts activities, they have short term increases in 301 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 5: cytokine activities, kind of an immune boost. But if they're 302 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 5: doing this repeatedly, actually what we tend to see is 303 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 5: that this is an overall boost, but it's a reduction 304 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 5: in the ratio of pro to anti inflammatory cytokines, and 305 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 5: over time we see these profiles of decreased levels of inflammation. 306 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 5: And in fact, when we look at this in those 307 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 5: big kinds of cohort studies I mentioned earlier, again we 308 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 5: see that people who are regularly engaged in the arts 309 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 5: have lower levels of inflammatory markers like cytokines and other 310 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 5: proteins as well. So it's really building this picture showing 311 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 5: the arts engagement really does have these quite complex and 312 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 5: deep relationships with the abundance of our proteins. 313 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 2: And so this ties into I believe I'm going to 314 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,479 Speaker 2: get this right psychoneuroimmunology. 315 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 4: That is right. 316 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: Oh, that is a word I had never never It 317 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: is rare that I come across the word that I've 318 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 2: literally never seen before, but that did happen in this book? 319 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 3: Tell me what is psychooneuroimmunology? 320 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 5: Well, I'm the like just say, have a PhD in 321 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 5: psych on your immunology. This is the right at the 322 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 5: heart of my field. So it's essentially thinking about how 323 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,959 Speaker 5: our psychological processes are bi directionally related with biological processes. 324 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 5: So the thoughts that we have, the experiences in our 325 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 5: lives influence our underlying biology, and our biology also influences 326 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 5: how we then think and feel. And inflammation and depression 327 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,719 Speaker 5: is a prime example here. Higher levels of inflammation are 328 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 5: related to higher levels of depression, but higher levels of 329 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 5: depression also trigger higher levels of inflammation, So we can 330 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 5: get into these vicious or virtuous cycles depending on experiences 331 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 5: in our lives. 332 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 2: That's really interesting, you know. I think so many of 333 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 2: us are conditioned to think about the mind and the 334 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 2: body as being very separate things. But it sounds like 335 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 2: this is maybe just a more holistic and accurate view 336 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 2: of how the human organism works. 337 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 5: It is, and it's also about building up the richer picture. 338 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 5: We are not just component parts like we are. This 339 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 5: more than the sum of those component parts. We have 340 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 5: to understand all about what's going on in our minds, 341 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 5: our brains, our bodies, and our behavior if we really 342 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 5: have a full picture of our health. 343 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 2: And that's part of what makes the arts so powerful 344 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 2: because it does affect us entirely. It can be immersive, 345 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 2: it can engage our brains, our bodies, all of these 346 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 2: things sort of at the same time. 347 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 3: Right, That's sort of the value. 348 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 5: Exactly, And that's what I think has been undervalued about 349 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 5: the arts so far. I think we rarely think about 350 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 5: just what an impact they can have on all of 351 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 5: those full processes I mentioned, But it's what I try 352 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 5: to celebrate in the book I cover mind, brain, body, 353 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 5: and behavior because I think that understanding that full picture 354 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 5: can help us make informed choices in our lives about 355 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 5: how and when we engage in the arts. 356 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 2: So I want to talk a little bit about how 357 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 2: we engage in the arts. 358 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 3: Then. 359 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 2: Is watching the latest HBO drama at home the same 360 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,360 Speaker 2: as going out to a movie theater? And is that 361 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 2: the same as going to see a live theater performance. 362 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 2: Are they different in terms of the effects and benefits 363 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 2: that they can give us? 364 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 5: They're different exposures because the ingredients are different. You know, 365 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 5: one of those you're watching a screen, another one, you're 366 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 5: actually seeing people live, and that is fundamentally different as 367 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 5: an experience, But whether it affects us depends on what 368 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 5: way we're thinking about that effect. For example, all of 369 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 5: those things involve some kind of stories, whether you're watching 370 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,400 Speaker 5: a film, whether you're watching a play. For example, stories 371 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 5: is such a powerful way for us thinking and reflecting 372 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 5: on our lives and our behaviors, and those stories, whichever 373 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 5: mode we receive them in, equally, whether we read a 374 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 5: book about them, they can all challenge our brains to 375 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 5: think differently on the world and also even reflect on 376 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 5: our own behavioral decisions. And I talk a lot in 377 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 5: the book about how stories can fundamentally change decisions, from 378 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 5: what kinds of contraceptive we use, to whether we follow 379 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 5: vaccination recommendations, or whether we make other kinds of key 380 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 5: health related life decisions. But then there are also other 381 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 5: kinds of outcomes where it will matter more about what 382 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 5: you're thinking in terms of your engagements. So, for example, 383 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 5: going to the cinema we know is much less effective 384 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 5: for supporting cognition when you get older compared to going 385 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 5: to the theater, and we believe this is because of 386 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 5: the screen based effect, which does have a slightly unusual 387 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,239 Speaker 5: effect on our brains, giving us this very alert but 388 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 5: quite passive state, which is very different to watching a 389 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 5: live performance. You can still get plenty of health benefits 390 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 5: from screen based arts, but I think wherever possible, making 391 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 5: that engagement live can just bring those extra alternative health 392 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 5: benefits as well. 393 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 3: Is a social factor something to do with that as well? 394 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 2: I mean, I think during the pandemic especially, we all 395 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 2: learned what happens to us when we don't engage with 396 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 2: people in real life. So is that part of it 397 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 2: just being out and about and in contact phase to 398 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 2: face with other people socializing? 399 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 5: Yes, as a social experience. I'm sure we're all fully 400 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 5: aware now that seeing friends on zoom is just not 401 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 5: the same as in real life. And in fact, we've 402 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 5: even done studies where we've directly compared screen and non 403 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 5: screen art, like singing in a choir versus singing in 404 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 5: a virtual choir from your own bedroom. 405 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: You do. 406 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 5: You still get benefits for things like emotion regulation, for example, 407 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 5: but they're just not quite as strong, and often people 408 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 5: don't feel as socially present as in that live setting. 409 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 5: So if you're really hoping for an activity that's going 410 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,360 Speaker 5: to reduce loneliness or help you to feel more socially connected. 411 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 5: You're always going to get that more strongly in real life. 412 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 2: Right, And it's so easy to get distracted too when 413 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 2: you're just looking at something on a screen. And that's 414 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 2: something you talk about as well in the book, which 415 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 2: is you know, we can listen, we can have music 416 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 2: on in the background while we're doing twelve different things. 417 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 2: I do it all the time, But that's not really 418 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 2: what we mean when we think about engaging with music 419 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 2: for the purpose of what you're talking about here, right, 420 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 2: we need to have some level of attention. 421 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,360 Speaker 5: I mean, don't get me wrong, those things can still 422 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 5: be so beneficial. I mean I often find, like you've said, 423 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 5: having it on in the background. For me, it's a stressbuster. 424 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 5: If I've got calm music on, it keeps my heart 425 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 5: rate lice and slow. It can keep my mood happier 426 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 5: if I'm doing something that I find a bit of 427 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 5: a bore. But if I really want to experience the 428 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 5: full benefits, I want to have the greatest dopamine releases 429 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 5: when I'm listening, for example, then actually I've got to. 430 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 4: Give intention to that listening. 431 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 5: So now if i'm listening to new music, I really 432 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 5: try and sit down and just listen to one track 433 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 5: before I then carry on with the multitasking involve just 434 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 5: to try and get those extra benefits. 435 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 2: Shifting a little bit to the idea of doing arts 436 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 2: or performing arts in some way. You write about something 437 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 2: that I've read about it, and actually, now that I've 438 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 2: read about it, I realize I've experienced it quite a lot. 439 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 2: And that is the flow state that you can get 440 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: into when you're practicing an art, whether it's baking and 441 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 2: decorating a cake or playing the violin. 442 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 3: What is the flow state and why is it so 443 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 3: good for us? 444 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 5: The flow state is that feeling of complete immersion where 445 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 5: you just lose track of time and you suddenly find 446 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 5: you've been doing something for an hour without even realizing it. 447 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 5: And it's really beneficial for our brains when we get 448 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,239 Speaker 5: into this state. It's a very meditative type process. There 449 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 5: was a wonderful study actually that was conducted. I believe 450 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 5: it was in the US a number of years ago now, 451 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 5: but they asked people about over two hundred different activities 452 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 5: that they'd done over the course of two weeks, and 453 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 5: that they randomly alerted them to see whether they'd had 454 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 5: a flow state doing that activity over that time. And 455 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 5: out of all of those two hundred activities, the one 456 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 5: that had the highest flow state was arts and crafts. 457 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 4: It even outperformed sex. 458 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 5: So I think if you're looking for a way of 459 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 5: having that full emersion, I cannot recommend art slightly enough. 460 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 3: That's incredible. 461 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: We have to take another quick break, but we'll be 462 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: back with more part time Genius in just a few minutes. 463 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 3: I want to talk a little bit about aging. 464 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 2: Our host Mongash is actually working on a new show 465 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 2: about longevity and he's talking to a lot of scientists 466 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 2: and researchers in the longevity field, and he's going to 467 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 2: be trying out some modifications to his lifestyle things like that. 468 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 2: But you're right that the arts are really key to longevity. 469 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 2: And you did a lot of research with seniors into 470 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 2: how it doesn't just lengthen their life, but it increases 471 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 2: their healthy lifespan. What are some ways that engaging in 472 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 2: the arts can help people live healthier lives longer. 473 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,719 Speaker 5: So we have actually seen in over a dozen studies 474 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 5: now relationship between arts engagement and a longer life span. 475 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 5: And this is independent again of people's demographics, their health, 476 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 5: their wealth, their other behaviors in their lives. But we've 477 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 5: also seen this increase in what you just describe, what's 478 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 5: known as our health span, so that time free from 479 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 5: disease or illness where we can enjoy our lives hopefully 480 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 5: to the max. Part of what drives this is the 481 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 5: arts helping us to stay physically active. You know, arts 482 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 5: can be a vehicle to us staying mobile and socially 483 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 5: connective and cognitively engaged. And we see a relationship between 484 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 5: ARTS engagements and a reduced risk of future frailty, age 485 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 5: related disability problem, psy chronic pain. We also see some 486 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 5: specific cognitive benefits, so engaging we're in the arts actually 487 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 5: increases the connectivity between brain regions that are vulnerable to aging. 488 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 5: So people who are more ARTS engaged actually have younger 489 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 5: looking brains on brain imaging, and actually we see that 490 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 5: they have a reduced risk of cognitive decline and a 491 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 5: reduced risk of developing dementia as well. But we also 492 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 5: now even understand about the deep seated biological effects. Research 493 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 5: that my team has been doing has been showing that 494 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 5: ARTS engagement is related to particular patterns of gene expression 495 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 5: called epigenetic clocks, which indicate a slower pace of biological aging. 496 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 5: And this is really highlighting that these relationships between arts 497 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 5: engagement and health span and lifespan are occurring at a 498 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 5: very deep biological level. 499 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 2: That's so fascinating, and you know, it makes me think 500 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 2: about my grandfather, my dad's father. He was a piano 501 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 2: teacher and he lived to be in his mid nineties 502 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 2: and he was sharp as attack, I mean really up 503 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 2: until the day he died. I wonder if all of 504 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 2: that datoven that he was mainlining for literally his entire life. 505 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 3: Might have had something to do with it. 506 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 5: Well, there have been studies now involving over two million 507 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 5: people that have shown that people who engage in cognitive 508 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 5: leisure activities do have better cognitive preservation in this reduced 509 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 5: dementia risk. And partly this is through building something called 510 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 5: cognitive reserve, which is the resilience of your brain. 511 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 4: Against cognitive decline. 512 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 5: So even if you are accumulating the early signs of 513 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,959 Speaker 5: dementia within your brain, your brain can compensate for longer. 514 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 5: We've actually now seen through a number of studies that 515 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 5: arts engagement is not only part of this general catchual 516 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 5: of cognitive leisure, but actually arts engagement is one as 517 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 5: the drivers of these effects. It's the perfect example of 518 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 5: a cognitive leisure activity because it involves so many different 519 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 5: parts of the brain, involves so much different sensory engagements, 520 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 5: and also involves challenge, which is so critical to keeping 521 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 5: our brains healthy. 522 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 2: And that's why also it's important for kids, young people 523 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 2: to engage with these things early. I'm wondering if you 524 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 2: can talk a little bit about sort of your perspective 525 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 2: as a parent and how you address bringing your children 526 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 2: into the arts. 527 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 5: I've definitely thought a lot more about this since becoming 528 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 5: a parent, because of course you're always reflecting, aren't you, 529 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 5: on what can I do that's going to give my 530 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 5: child a good start and support their developments, and arts 531 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 5: are just absolutely fundamental in all of this. Right from 532 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 5: when we're babies are in the womb, we can see 533 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 5: that they respond to music. Singing or giving that kind 534 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 5: of sing song lullaby voice with me actually helps to 535 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 5: build architectural development within their brain. We can process music 536 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 5: before we can process language, so it helps to build 537 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 5: that scaffolding that later helps to support language acquisition. We 538 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 5: also see benefits for children in terms of more developmental 539 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 5: processes too, Children in primary school who engage regularly in 540 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 5: the arts actually have a reduced risk of developing behavioral 541 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 5: problems depression as they enter adolescents. They're less likely to 542 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 5: become lonely. They're even less likely to commit crimes or 543 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 5: take substances like marijuana or tobacco. And we actually the 544 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 5: analyzes show that one of the key things here is 545 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,719 Speaker 5: arts engagement helping to build life skills like self esteem 546 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 5: and self control and problem solving, which actually can help 547 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 5: young people to navigate all of these complex life choices 548 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 5: that they get presented. 549 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 2: With reading this book and hearing your talk, it is 550 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,959 Speaker 2: impossible not to come away with the idea that the 551 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 2: arts should be a major social priority, not just for culture, 552 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 2: but for education and really for public health health. But 553 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 2: the unfortunate reality, and you're very clear about this in 554 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 2: the book, is that when budgets are cut, the arts 555 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 2: are often the first to go. You've seen cuts in 556 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 2: the UK, I'm here in the US. You know, our 557 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 2: National Endowment for the Arts is being dismantled. I honestly, 558 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 2: going back, Ronald Reagan wanted to get rid of it 559 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 2: entirely this is an ongoing issue that the need for 560 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 2: the arts is not matched by governmental support for the arts. 561 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 2: Two questions, One, how depressed should I be about this? 562 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 3: And two, if we. 563 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 2: Can't fix it at the global or even national level, 564 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 2: what can we do at the local or personal level 565 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 2: to keep the arts alive and vibrant for ourselves. 566 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 5: I find this honestly baffling when I look around and 567 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 5: see what's happening, because the scientific evidence space is so 568 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 5: strong about these health benefits, but also about the health 569 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 5: economic return on investments of investing in the arts. And 570 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 5: I'm certainly not suggesting that we should only be funding 571 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 5: the arts for their health benefits. This isn't about some 572 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 5: instrumentalists press but it's more recognizing that arts engagement inherently 573 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 5: has health benefits that are of value to us as 574 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 5: individuals and societies. We've actually done economic modeling in the 575 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 5: UK where we found that just amongst working age adults alone, 576 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 5: the annual health economic benefits of engaging in the arts 577 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 5: are worth eighteen billion pounds to society. So I've always 578 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 5: find it so surprising when arts budgets are cut, because 579 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 5: that has ramifications not just for health but to healthcare 580 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 5: systems as well. I veer between being pessimistic and optimistic 581 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 5: on this one, but I think overall I'm optimistic because 582 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 5: when we look back across history in the last hundred years, 583 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 5: every decade or so, we've sort of had a light 584 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 5: bulb moment, what I call a seat belt moment in 585 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 5: the book of Awareness, about a particular behavior and suddenly 586 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 5: how fundamental it is to society. We had it for 587 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 5: seat belts and cars in the nineteen nineties, Suddenly everyone 588 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 5: agreed that they should. 589 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 4: Be wearing them. 590 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 5: We had it for exercise in the nineteen eighties, in 591 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 5: the nineteen seventies, sleep, more recently, smoking bands around the millennium. 592 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 5: And I do feel that there is this shift now 593 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 5: that's happening in people's public awareness and the benefits of 594 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 5: the art. So I really feel that seat belt moment, 595 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 5: that tipping point of awareness, which could then lead to 596 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 5: changes within society revaluing of the arts, is coming. And 597 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 5: I think in the meantime, for individuals, we can change 598 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 5: our own behaviors. And I talk a lot in the 599 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 5: book about working out what your blocks are and how 600 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 5: to use behavior change science to overcome them. But also 601 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 5: I think within communities, we can value the arts. We 602 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 5: can even set up our own groups, we can lobby, 603 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 5: we can show the evidence to schools, to communities, to policymakers, 604 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 5: and we from the grassroots level up can hopefully be 605 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 5: part of that seat belt movement and part of that 606 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 5: catalyzing that change. 607 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 3: I like that you brought up that thing about the block. 608 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 2: So a lot of people, I think feel, especially when 609 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 2: it comes to engaging or participating in the arts. 610 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 3: The instinct is, well, I'm not good at that. I'm 611 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 3: not good at that. 612 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 2: I'm not a good singer, I'm not a good musician, 613 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 2: I can't dance. But you don't have to be good 614 00:30:58,080 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 2: at these things to get the benefits from them. 615 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 4: No, absolutely not. 616 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 5: You don't have to be good at the arts to 617 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 5: get benefits. Just participating gives you the chance to experience 618 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 5: the things like dopamine release or stressful maine releases. You 619 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 5: haven't necessarily got to be even getting better in that process. 620 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 5: And there are other myths as well that you don't 621 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 5: have to have lots of time to do this. There 622 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 5: are simple ways you can swap existing routines to make 623 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 5: them more creative. And the arts also don't have to 624 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 5: cost anything. I think that's a real barrier for many people. 625 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 5: But as I talk about in the book, there are 626 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 5: so many free ways that people can actually increase the 627 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 5: amount of creativity they've got in their day to day lives. 628 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 3: What are your favorite ways to engage with the arts. 629 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 5: I really make sure that I do not doom scroll 630 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 5: on my commute. I always read a book, and I 631 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 5: think that's such an easy way of just having a 632 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 5: bit of creativity before and after work each day. I 633 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 5: love listening to music, and like I said, I try 634 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 5: to listen to it intentionally. I particularly have got into 635 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 5: listening to live concerts recently on the radio because that's 636 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 5: such a good way of feeling like you're actually part 637 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 5: of something that's happening, even if it's one hundred miles away, 638 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 5: so it can feel much more real. I have young children, 639 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 5: so they are inherently creative. Kids always are, and that's 640 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 5: really helped me to be less afraid about trying new 641 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 5: things and even afraid of doing them badly, because it 642 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 5: doesn't matter. Like part of that process is making mistakes 643 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 5: and having the joy of discovery within that. 644 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 2: All right, Daisy, before I let you go, would you 645 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 2: do me a favor and join me down in the 646 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 2: rec center to make some suggestions for people who might 647 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 2: be looking for ways to engage with the arts in 648 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 2: their day to day life. 649 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 4: I would love to. 650 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 2: So I'm going to tell you about some imaginary people. 651 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 2: These are not real. I want to emphasize these are 652 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 2: hypothetical people that I made up. If anybody out there 653 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 2: recognizes themselves in this, that is on you, not me. 654 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 2: So I'm going to describe someone, Daisy, and you're going 655 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 2: to make a recommendation. I know there are lots of recommendations, 656 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 2: lots of things that people could do, but let's just 657 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 2: pick one or two for each person. 658 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 3: Okay. 659 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 2: So our first person is a young person who just 660 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 2: spends a lot of time scrolling on TikTok, just getting 661 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 2: sucked into the algorithm. And maybe they're feeling a little 662 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 2: bit envious or down on themselves because they see these 663 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 2: influencers with their seemingly glamorous lifestyles. What is one arts 664 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 2: related practice that they could do instead. 665 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 5: So you're someone on your phone, so you've got dexterous fingers, 666 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 5: maybe a short attention span, and you perhaps want the 667 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 5: idea that you could be contributing content too, So I 668 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 5: think that craft like crochet could be really great here. 669 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 5: They're super easy to pick up from watching videos on 670 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 5: places like TikTok. There's something that can keep you busy, 671 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 5: but you've got quite a nice product really quickly from it, 672 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 5: and best of all, you can then actually share it. 673 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 5: And I think that following the accounts of fellow crocheos 674 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 5: could be a really lovely swap to doom scrolling people 675 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 5: you've got more glamorous lifestyles. 676 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 2: I'd love that you mentioned that, because I learned how 677 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 2: to crochet from watching videos. And if I can do it, people, 678 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 2: anyone can do it. I am the least crafty person. 679 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 2: I've made some adorable things, and you can give them 680 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 2: away too. That's the other thing you can make. It 681 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 2: gives exactly people love them. Okay, So our next person 682 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 2: is someone who's recovering from surgery or maybe a serious illness, 683 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 2: and maybe they don't have a lot of physical strength 684 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 2: or physical energy. With a caveat that we are not 685 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 2: your doctor. What is one arts related practice that they 686 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 2: could try as they're recovering. 687 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 5: Music feels perfect here because you haven't got to be 688 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 5: doing anything if you don't want to. I think live 689 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 5: concerts like I mentioned, but it's one of my favorite things. 690 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 5: Can be great as an option here. Music actually reduces inflammation, 691 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 5: it can reduce stress, It also reduces pain, so it 692 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 5: could be great if you're experiencing any of those things, 693 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 5: if you're recovering from a surgery, for example, And actually 694 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 5: music's associated with faster wound healing, so it can have 695 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,240 Speaker 5: those benefits too. I would say try and push yourself 696 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 5: outside your comfort zone though, so that this feels like 697 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 5: it's a novelty and actually a chance to try things 698 00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 5: and that you wouldn't normally have listened to. 699 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 2: So like try out a new genres, something maybe you've 700 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 2: never listened to before. 701 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 5: It's a way of being a venturist, so you can 702 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 5: feel like you're getting a new experience. 703 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 3: I love that. 704 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 2: Okay, So our third person is a busy professional. They 705 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 2: have no free time. They've got work, they've got family, 706 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 2: they've got a commute, they have so many responsibilities. What 707 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 2: is one realistic arts related practice that they could try 708 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 2: to squeeze in somewhere. 709 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 5: Don't squeeze it in. That's going to be the mistake here. 710 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 5: Do a swap instead. So if you would normally have 711 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,919 Speaker 5: a date night with your partner every now and then 712 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 5: swap that for going to a gig together instead. If 713 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 5: you might meet up for a drink with friends, well 714 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 5: instead go to a craft's workshop. 715 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 4: There are so. 716 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 5: Many of these even developing in like pubs or bars 717 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 5: and things now. And if you've got a day with 718 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 5: a family or why not go to an exhibition together 719 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,800 Speaker 5: because that could be a way of integrating arts without 720 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 5: it having to change your current busy schedule. 721 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 3: That's wonderful. 722 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,320 Speaker 2: Okay, so this one might be a little bit related 723 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 2: to me, a news junkie who feels a constant need 724 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 2: to know everything that is going on, but then find 725 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 2: themselves getting stressed out because of everything that's gone going on. 726 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 2: What is an arts related practice that they could add 727 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 2: to their new side if their primary motivation is consuming 728 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 2: information in some way. 729 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 5: You have just described me up until twenty twenty four, 730 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 5: and then I made the swap to reading novels on 731 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 5: my commutes, and whenever I would reach for my phone 732 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 5: to look at the news, I just reach for the 733 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 5: novel now. And I have to say it's been such 734 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 5: a game changer because it's a much nicer way of 735 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 5: regulating my emotions. It gives me much more creative and 736 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,359 Speaker 5: positive outlook on things. So I cannot recommend that one 737 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 5: highly enough. 738 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 2: I'm just curious, what about things like reading nonfiction books 739 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 2: or memoirs. Do those have the same sort of impact 740 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 2: as a novel or do we not know that yet? 741 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 5: Well, actually they're still counted as reading for pleasure and 742 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 5: their literature and the studies that we've done as well 743 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 5: show that those do have those same benefits. And let's 744 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,760 Speaker 5: be honest, you're never quite sure how truthful those things are. Anyway, 745 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 5: they could well be a work of fess. 746 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,359 Speaker 2: I love that, okay, and our last one we talked 747 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,359 Speaker 2: about this a little bit. But an older person who's 748 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 2: in good health but really really wants to maintain that 749 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 2: and stay sharp and healthy as thee But maybe they've 750 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 2: never they've gone their whole lives without ever really developing 751 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 2: an arts related practice, and maybe they're feeling like it's 752 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 2: too late. What's something they can do that isn't too late? 753 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 5: It is definitely not too late. So do something that 754 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,760 Speaker 5: you think is going to be cognitively challenging. I actually 755 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 5: saw a fantastic study which was giving people who were 756 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 5: aged over sixty circus arts, so they were having to 757 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 5: learn juggling, and actually, within just a few weeks they'd 758 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 5: actually found that there were increases in the volume of 759 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 5: gray matter in certain regions of their brains. And that 760 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 5: really is evidence that it doesn't have to be something 761 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,359 Speaker 5: you'd done before. Not one of them had juggled. But 762 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 5: you have to maintain it because actually those who stopped 763 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 5: actually found that their gray matter reduced the levels that 764 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 5: had been before. Those who continued continued to see those benefits. 765 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 3: So user or lose it exactly. 766 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 4: It's a same for a reason, isn't it. 767 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 2: That's right, well, Daisy, this has been absolutely wonderful. Thank 768 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 2: you so much for taking the time to speak with 769 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,720 Speaker 2: me today. 770 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,399 Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Daisy Fank. Her book Art 771 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 1: Cure The Science of How the Arts Saved Lives is 772 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: out now. You can get it wherever you get your books. 773 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,400 Speaker 1: We'll put a link in the show description, so please 774 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,840 Speaker 1: be sure to check it out. And if this episode 775 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: inspired you to make more time for the arts in 776 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: your life, we'd love to hear about it. As you know, 777 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: my kids and I have a Tuesday night art club 778 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 1: where we make art together. It's often terrible art but 779 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 1: it's a lot of fun and if you make art, 780 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: give us a call at three O two four oh 781 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,839 Speaker 1: five five nine two five, send us an email at 782 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 1: high Geniuses at gmail dot com. That's Hi Geniuses at 783 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,839 Speaker 1: gmail dot com, where you can always find us on 784 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: Instagram or Blue Sky. We're at part Time Genius, and 785 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: you know I love seeing those pics. So we will 786 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: be back next week with another brand new episode. But 787 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: in the meantime, from Will, Dylan, Gabe, Mary, and myself, 788 00:38:52,719 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: thank you so much for listening. Part Time Genius is 789 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 1: a production of Kaleidoscope and iHeart Radio. It is hosted 790 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: by my good pal Will Pearson, who I've known for 791 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: almost three decades now. That is insane to me. I'm 792 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: the Utaco host, Mangeshatikular aka Mango. Our producer is Mary 793 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 1: Phillips Sandy. She's actually a super producer. I'm going to 794 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: fix that in post. Our writer is Gabe Lucier, who 795 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 1: I've also known for like a decade at this point, 796 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 1: maybe more. Dylan Fagan is in the booth. He is 797 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,800 Speaker 1: always dressed up, always cheering us on, and always ready 798 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: to hit record and then mix the show after. He 799 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 1: does a great job I also want to shout out 800 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: the executive producers from iHeart my good Pals Katrina and 801 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,319 Speaker 1: Norvel and Ali Perry. We have social media support from 802 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: Calypso Rallis if you like our videos. That is all 803 00:39:55,680 --> 00:40:00,040 Speaker 1: Calypso's handiwork for more podcasts from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio What 804 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: is it the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or tune in 805 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. That's it from 806 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,879 Speaker 1: us here at Part Time Genius. Thank you so much 807 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 1: for listening.