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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Sanny and Samantha, and wellcome stuff.

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Speaker 2: I've never told you protictive of iHeart radio, and welcome

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Speaker 2: to a long awaited episode that we're doing on women,

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Speaker 2: referees and coaches. Brief content warning for sexist language. Samantha,

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Speaker 2: when you look back in your experience, did you see

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Speaker 2: or or have more male coaches or female coaches?

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Speaker 3: Well, so, the only sports I really participated in was cheerleading,

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Speaker 3: so for that, you know, I only had women coaches

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Speaker 3: for those. But I will say when I was watching

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Speaker 3: my friends who competed in tennis and in cross country,

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Speaker 3: it was all men. Now that I'm thinking about it,

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Speaker 3: more and more that the few and even for like

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Speaker 3: women's basketball, girls basketball, we had a whole issue inappropriate

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Speaker 3: behavior from our coach who was beloved. But then like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's easily like those beloved coaches are the ones like yeah, okay,

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Speaker 3: that makes sense, he's a little too close to the students.

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Speaker 3: But anyway, it was a dude obviously as I say this,

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Speaker 3: but yeah, I think now that I'm thinking about it,

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Speaker 3: even for the girls teams or like mixed teams, it

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Speaker 3: was all typically men, and the ones that were highly

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Speaker 3: regarded were always men, like even outside of like again,

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Speaker 3: a couple of the cheerleading squads.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, what about you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think looking back.

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Speaker 1: I did a couple of sports.

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Speaker 2: That were more leaning towards girls, so like gymnastics that

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Speaker 2: was all women. But when I got into high school,

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Speaker 2: I was insecure. Therefore I didn't compete in sports. But

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Speaker 2: so most of the coaches I saw when other people

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Speaker 2: were competing were men. There were a couple of outliers,

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Speaker 2: and they were they were women who were very beloved.

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Speaker 2: But also, yeah, we had a lot of with those

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Speaker 2: men coaches, there were just rumors of them being kind

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Speaker 2: of creepers, so and it was just accepted. It was

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Speaker 2: just like, yeah, yep, that's that's how they are. But

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Speaker 2: my school was also pretty small, so was yours. Right,

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Speaker 2: You're just very small.

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Speaker 4: Right, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I was thinking about how many I thinkl like we

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Speaker 3: had one hundred. I think it was ours is bigger

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Speaker 3: than yours, So like one hundred and thirty people graduate

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Speaker 3: in my class. There was only one high school, I

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Speaker 3: believe in the entire county.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've I've seem to recall I had a ninety

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Speaker 2: one number of graduating people in my class.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I could be wrong. That's the number that I've liked.

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Speaker 2: It's been a while, that's the number that stands out

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Speaker 2: to me. But yeah, I just feel mostly women coaches

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Speaker 2: in my experience were like outliers, and there weren't really

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Speaker 2: referees in my experience. This episode Listeners was what I'll

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Speaker 2: call a folly on my part because I was like,

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Speaker 2: surely this will be a simple one to put together.

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Speaker 2: It's it wasn't. And in fact, I'm just going to

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Speaker 2: go ahead and put a disclaimer up here. You could

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Speaker 2: break down the history of coaches and referees in pretty

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Speaker 2: much every sport and it could be a full episode.

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Speaker 2: There has been a lot of research into it, so

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Speaker 2: today we are going to be talking about some of

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Speaker 2: the history, specifically in the realm of football slash soccer

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Speaker 2: and American football issues and potential solutions. This is by

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Speaker 2: no means comprehensive. I'm actually really impressed at how many

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Speaker 2: detailed sources that I found looking to this, But a

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Speaker 2: lot of it is recent, a lot of it is

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Speaker 2: very very soon, of course, yes, and we're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about that soon because a lot of the first

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh.

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Speaker 1: Really, last year yep, yeah, yep.

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Speaker 4: It sucks.

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Speaker 1: It does suck, and it does have It's important. It

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Speaker 1: is important.

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Speaker 2: So to start, I tried to find like a general

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Speaker 2: definition of a coach and referee.

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Speaker 1: People don't really seem to agree.

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Speaker 2: On even that, So basically I would say coach is

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Speaker 2: someone who guides and supports.

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Speaker 1: Athletes, usually on a team.

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Speaker 2: There are no consistent guidelines or requirements, though it often

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Speaker 2: involves getting a coaching and teaching license and perhaps other

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Speaker 2: credentials that can look very differently depending on the sport,

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Speaker 2: depending on where you are. Referees this was even less

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Speaker 2: less regulated from what I could find. Please, if anyone

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Speaker 2: is a coach a referee professionally or not, write in,

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Speaker 2: but yes, they're they're basically monitoring the game, watching for

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Speaker 2: any like breaking of rules or something like that. And

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Speaker 2: to become one it seemed like it was sort of

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Speaker 2: all over the place based on sport. But basically you

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Speaker 2: have to pass a rules exam and then you sort

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Speaker 2: of work your way up from the bottom.

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Speaker 1: That's what it sounded like.

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Speaker 2: Then I discovered I knew about this, but I don't

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Speaker 2: know why I've never thought about it. The people who

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Speaker 2: watched the like videos yeah. Yeah, so that's a whole

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Speaker 2: different thing we're going to have to come back to

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Speaker 2: because women are just breaking grounds and that you're at

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 3: Right, we're not even talking about commentators and how much

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Speaker 3: they missed they make, Like Tom Brady just got millions

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Speaker 3: of dollars of a.

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Speaker 4: Contract to work with Fox Sports.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, let's talk about that's a whole different world.

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Speaker 3: But of course, all of this means, all of this

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Speaker 3: is conversations about how much money is and can be

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Speaker 3: made in this industry and who is given to But

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Speaker 3: you know, again, we'll come back to that later. But

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Speaker 3: whever you do all of that, let's talk about a

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Speaker 3: little bit, a little bit of stance, stance, a little

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Speaker 3: bit of stance.

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Speaker 4: Handy or a couple, you know, quick ones.

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Speaker 3: So when it comes to the US, as the twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty two, about thirty percent of high school varsity coaches

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Speaker 3: were women compared to a seventy percent of men, which

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Speaker 3: is more than I thought it would be, to be

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Speaker 3: very honest, especially in high schools because they're pretty competitive.

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Speaker 3: High school is a day are interesting level making come

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Speaker 3: on Friday night lights. They made hit shows based on

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Speaker 3: coaching and teams in high schools.

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Speaker 4: But whatever.

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Speaker 3: And according to the Conversation quote, today men occupy nearly

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Speaker 3: seventy five percent of all head coaching positions in collegiate athletics,

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Speaker 3: again lower than I thought. I would have thought it

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Speaker 3: was ninety percent. But you know, the BBC recently reported

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Speaker 3: that the number of women's referees in English football had

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Speaker 3: increased by seventy two percent as of twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 4: And that was in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: Huh really yeah, yeah, We're going to talk about that

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Speaker 2: in a second, but I do want to clarify the

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Speaker 2: English football is important because it was specifically about in England.

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Speaker 3: England, yes, which is I haven't watched a lot of

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Speaker 3: English football soccer, I'm assuming recently and I've never but

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Speaker 3: I've yet to see a woman being a referee, so

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Speaker 3: that's interesting.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's pretty recent.

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Speaker 5: We well's talk about it, yes, but I did want

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Speaker 5: to put in here before we get into it, a

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Speaker 5: quick note about why it matters, because I think one

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Speaker 5: thing that can't be quite captured in a definition is

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Speaker 5: the power and impact of a good coach or a

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Speaker 5: good referee, both in terms of fostering athletes, but in

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Speaker 5: seeing that like, oh, I belong.

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Speaker 2: Having women in these positions normalizes women's participation. It says

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Speaker 2: like women are supposed to be here. It also allows

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Speaker 2: for athletes to grow once they stop competing, and there's

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Speaker 2: so much talent that is getting lost because these pathways

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Speaker 2: don't really exist right now for women, or if they do,

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Speaker 2: they're so crowded that women are getting pushed out. So

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Speaker 2: it is important or bullied out, yeah, or bullied out.

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Speaker 2: So yes, as we go into we're mostly going to

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Speaker 2: talk about soccer a football, an American football. But yes,

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Speaker 2: please forgive us because the history section is a bit

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Speaker 2: cobbled together because sports history looks different all around the world,

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Speaker 2: and it looks different in different sports. Also worth noting,

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Speaker 2: in multiple cases, at some point or another, women were

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Speaker 2: prohibited from competing officially in sports, which is pretty much

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Speaker 2: how people become.

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Speaker 1: Professional coaches and referees. So there's a lot of catching

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Speaker 1: up to do in that sense. Yes, okay, but let

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Speaker 1: us look at soccer slash football. While soccer football has

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Speaker 1: a long history of being popular, patriarchal systems have often

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Speaker 1: sought to keep women out, both as players and in

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Speaker 1: any leadership or officiate positions. For instance, women were banned

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Speaker 1: from playing on official Football League pitches in nineteen twenty one.

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Speaker 1: Their official reason was that it was dangerous for women.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about this before. Can't sweat what about our

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Speaker 1: uter is. It's going to fall out, It's going to

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Speaker 1: fall out. These are real things.

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Speaker 2: The unofficial reason was that they didn't want women to

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Speaker 2: threaten a quach men's sports.

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Speaker 3: However, women's soccer has really taken off in recent years

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Speaker 3: with a huge explosion of popularity. Attendance records have been broken,

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Speaker 3: as have viewership records, and the skills on display are

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Speaker 3: just as astounding. Still, when it comes to women coaching

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Speaker 3: the sport, we're still lagging behind. Only one third of

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Speaker 3: women's Super League coaches have a woman manager. The National

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Speaker 3: Women's Soccer League or NWSL has fourteen clubs and only

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Speaker 3: five are led by women.

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Speaker 2: Austria's Edith Klinger is believed to be the first woman

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Speaker 2: to referee both men and women's games. In nineteen thirty five, however,

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Speaker 2: FIFA officially recognized Turkey's tresan Arda as the world's for

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Speaker 2: football woman referee. She refereed her first match in nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty eight after years of training. Although FIFA is very

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Speaker 2: like it has to be a FIFA event, So that

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Speaker 2: makes sense to me, right. Betty Ellis was the first

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Speaker 2: woman to officiate a professional US soccer game in nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty one, and then in nineteen ninety one we saw

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Speaker 2: the first all women team to officiate a FIFA tournament. Earlier,

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Speaker 2: Claudia Vasconcelos became the first woman to referee an official

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Speaker 2: FIFA event at the first Women's World Cup. So the

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Speaker 2: reason this kind of came out later because FIFA again

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Speaker 2: wasn't sure if it was an official event, like they

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Speaker 2: were like Women's World Cup. But then when they later

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Speaker 2: were like, okay, it was an official event, then it

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Speaker 2: was like she kind of retroactively got the recognition. Just

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Speaker 2: a handful of years later we got the first woman

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Speaker 2: to be designated as the first official FIFA accredited referee.

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Speaker 3: So one woman who recently has been the source of

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Speaker 3: a lot of coverage as Emma Hayes, who, after coaching

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Speaker 3: the team and Chelsea, went on to coach the US

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Speaker 3: women's national team.

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Speaker 4: And led them to gold.

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Speaker 3: She has been very vocal about the lack of women

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Speaker 3: coaches and all the reasons she thinks that is. Things

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Speaker 3: like cost and the gender wage gap, lack of education

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Speaker 3: and attention, and lack of mentors, which kind of we

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Speaker 3: talked about with the Olympics.

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Speaker 2: Yes, In twenty twenty, in part because of COVID, the

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Speaker 2: comic ball CEO Nmebol Copoa Libretatrees, the highest level of

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Speaker 2: competition in South American club football, was the first game

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Speaker 2: to feature only women referees. The video match officials were

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Speaker 2: also women, meaning the entirety of the officiating team was

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Speaker 2: composed of women. And I will say it's kind of unfortunate,

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Speaker 2: but a lot of this did happen during COVID because

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Speaker 2: men were getting COVID, So it was sort of like

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Speaker 2: whoever could step up, and these women were definitely qualified.

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Speaker 2: Do not get me wrong, but that's it was like

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Speaker 2: all the men were sick. In twenty twenty two, Stephanie

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Speaker 2: Frappar became the first woman to officiate a men's World

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Speaker 2: Cup game. She also had like a bunch of other

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Speaker 2: first She had two women assistants too at this time.

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Speaker 2: He was at Back of Brazil and Karen Diaz Medina

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Speaker 2: of Mexico. And yeah, there are still first happening. In

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, the first woman was appointed to coach

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Speaker 2: a professional British football team. I saw something today because

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Speaker 2: of course, when you're researching something like this, you start

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Speaker 2: getting news updates all the time right about other first

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Speaker 2: that are happening. So it's one of those things where

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of like, I'm happy, but I'm shocked that

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Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, really this is.

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Speaker 4: Yeah in twenty twenty four, finally I guess.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And that is the briefest of overview of women coaches

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Speaker 2: and referees in soccer. Let us look at American football,

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Speaker 2: so this was interesting to me. American football the rules

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Speaker 2: and sport were formalized in the eighteen seventies, and one

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Speaker 2: of the main stated goals of this sport was to

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Speaker 2: reinforce and shore up what was believed to be fading

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Speaker 2: manliness in white and closed Saxon men due to increased

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Speaker 2: immigration and the closed frontier. But even in these early days,

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Speaker 2: women were present as coaches. The so called father of football,

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Speaker 2: Walter Camp, often missed practices and his wife Alice would

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Speaker 2: take his place. She took these really intense notes. She

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Speaker 2: made play suggestions. The team, who were undefeated in eighteen

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Speaker 2: eighty eight, considered her a coach on the same level

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Speaker 2: as her husband. At reunion celebration twenty five years later,

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Speaker 2: both she and her husband were labeled head coaches. So

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Speaker 2: women weren't there. Whether they were getting the credit necessarily

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Speaker 2: different story, but they were there, and she was not

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Speaker 2: the only one. Prior to World War One, a roster

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Speaker 2: of American women coach men's football teams from the Washington Post.

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Speaker 2: Names like Lillian Merrill, Annie Bragdon, Estelle Sherwin, Carrie Brookhart,

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Speaker 2: and Cosette Brannon were all there. Two of them, Bragden

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Speaker 2: and Burkhart, boasted undefeated seasons at the time. One of

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Speaker 2: the main aspects of this sport was its violence. It

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Speaker 2: was something that journals wrote about, including injuries and even death.

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Speaker 2: So these women coaching such a violent sport broke accepted

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Speaker 2: Western gender stereotypes in multiple ways. Generally, they coached school

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Speaker 2: aged teams. Women did pretty much anything above that. In

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Speaker 2: the rare case it happened was usually because of lack

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Speaker 2: of funding to pay for a mail coach or something

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Speaker 2: something like that. A second choice like women that's the

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Speaker 2: second choice. Women that were still viewed as largely spectators

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Speaker 2: to the men, being madly and somewhat of a calming

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Speaker 2: influence in the audience. Yeah, this actually was the thing

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Speaker 2: in a lot of Western countries, regardless of sports, as

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Speaker 2: were sexist, racist, ablest, and homophobic guidelines designed to keep

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Speaker 2: marginalized people out or harassing them if they somehow managed

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Speaker 2: to participate.

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Speaker 3: Right. So that shifted a bit during World War One

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Speaker 3: when men went away to fight the war and women

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Speaker 3: stepped up into the positions as coaches, a story as

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Speaker 3: old as time in high schools and college positions. The

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Speaker 3: same thing happened during World War Two, and some of

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Speaker 3: these coaches won titles. Once the men returned from the war,

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Speaker 3: many of the women were forced out, though some remained

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Speaker 3: coaching for many more years.

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Speaker 4: Go back to the leg of their own. That's that

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Speaker 4: whole scenario.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh huh. Some reporters from the

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Speaker 2: time describe these women coaches as radical and strange. Their

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Speaker 2: husbands were often pointedly mentioned as if to reassure folks

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Speaker 2: that they are still straight women in the domestic sphere,

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Speaker 2: or even crediting their husbands with the women's knowledge and talents. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: when Pauline Foster's team beat a team coach by a man,

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Speaker 2: it was reported on with almost amusement, like he'll never

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Speaker 2: live down this embarrassment, as opposed to crediting her talent,

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Speaker 2: which they often did attribute to her spend. And of course,

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Speaker 2: the physical appearances of the women coaches was the point

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Speaker 2: of attention to in a way that it wasn't for men.

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Speaker 2: Descriptions like beautiful, attractive, and buxom blonde were pretty standard.

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Speaker 4: That were buxhom that it gets me every time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: After a bit of a dead period for women American

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Speaker 2: football coaches, nineteen seventy two's Title nine put in place

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Speaker 2: rules to foster quality in women's sports in education settings,

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Speaker 2: but this mostly pertained to athletes and not coaches or referees.

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Speaker 2: Women coaches were still met with suspicion and derision. Some

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Speaker 2: universities and institutions even had in place rules that prohibited

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Speaker 2: women from holding these positions, even assistant coaching positions. Before

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Speaker 2: Title nine, ninety percent of intercollegiate women's teams were coached

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Speaker 2: by women, largely unpaid. However, after Title nine, there was

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Speaker 2: a huge growth in teams and men started to take

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Speaker 2: these roles thanks to biases and also, yeah, the roles

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Speaker 2: were now paid, so like now men were like.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'll take that job.

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Speaker 2: In twenty fourteen, women accounted for only forty three percent

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Speaker 2: of these positions. So basically, yeah, now women's teams were

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Speaker 2: getting money, they were getting resources, and suddenly men sow

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Speaker 2: it as a legitimate career path to coach these teams.

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Speaker 1: Of course, yep.

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Speaker 2: I did find some arguments that first and second wave

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Speaker 2: feminism were part to blame for the unintended consequences of

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Speaker 2: the lower number of women coaches and refs, and the

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Speaker 2: argument goes that these movements wanted women's sports under women's spheres,

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Speaker 2: all women's clubs, perhaps specific rules. It was interesting. I

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Speaker 2: was like, I guess, I don't know. It was an

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Speaker 2: interesting argument. Yes, a few women were able to break through,

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Speaker 2: and including Carol White, who worked with kickers at my

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Speaker 2: alma mater, Georgia Tech as a graduate assistant in nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty six. Some say this makes her the first woman

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Speaker 2: to coach in an NCAA Division One football tournament. Oh,

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Speaker 2: people do like to argue about all this stuff, though

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Speaker 2: was probably not a surprise. Another thing people argue about

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Speaker 2: when Natalie Randolph started coaching a men's high school football

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Speaker 2: team in twenty ten, she was widely celebrated as the

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Speaker 2: first women coach of a men's high school team. But

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Speaker 2: if you've been listening to the history section, others will say, no, way,

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Speaker 2: that can't be true. I think it's more of a

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Speaker 2: in our recent times kind of thing. Yeah, in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 2: there were a lot of headlines about history being made

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Speaker 2: around women raps and coaches in NFL football. That season,

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Speaker 2: there were twelve women coaches working. It was the first

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Speaker 2: Super Bowl to feature two women coaches, and soar Thomas

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Speaker 2: became the first woman referee to officiate a Super Bowl game.

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Speaker 2: She also previously had broken other first, including becoming the

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Speaker 2: first full time woman referee for the NFL. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: the case of American football is interesting because women don't

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Speaker 2: play it professionally, so there's not a pipeline of player

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Speaker 2: to coach, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yep.

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Speaker 2: That's also could be broken down into a much bigger

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Speaker 2: episode because there's still a lot of first happening there.

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Speaker 2: But let us talk about some of the issues here

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Speaker 2: that we found when researching this one. No surprise, harrassment.

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Speaker 2: One of the biggest barriers women have reported in these

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Speaker 2: positions is sexism and harrassment from players, spectators, and other officials.

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Speaker 2: Here are some examples from Forbes quote if women want

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Speaker 2: equal rights, then they need to learn how to referee.

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Speaker 2: And from an amateur football coach, she should not be here.

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Speaker 2: I know that sounds sexist, but I am sexist and

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Speaker 2: if you start bringing in women, you have big problems.

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Speaker 2: A senior vice president of the Football Association once said,

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Speaker 2: one's place is in the kitchen and not on football field.

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Speaker 4: I love it. That's their go to is always the kitchen. Always, yes,

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Speaker 4: oh that is.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about this in a minute, but

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Speaker 1: that comes up all the time. That go back to

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Speaker 1: the kitchen.

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Speaker 4: Argument, right every time.

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Speaker 3: Here's another quote from a referee named Anne, things like

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Speaker 3: don't you know the supermarket is open? You should be

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Speaker 3: there doing the shopping, or why aren't you at home cooking.

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Speaker 4: Your husband's meal?

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Speaker 3: Or you should be pregnant at the kitchen sink, or

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Speaker 3: the worst one was I hope your children die of cancer.

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Speaker 3: That was from a spectator. I remember one game, an

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Speaker 3: FA Cup round, and I walked off and my daughter

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Speaker 3: came running over to where the tunnel area was and

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Speaker 3: she said, Mommy, what's the dyke. She was only about

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Speaker 3: ten or eleven at the time, and I said, why, honey,

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Speaker 3: and she said, because the man over there, he's been

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Speaker 3: calling you one the whole game.

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Speaker 1: Oh yikes.

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Speaker 2: Many women in these positions have reported they are quote

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Speaker 2: aware of their token status and the damage that does

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Speaker 2: to their mental health. There have been multiple instances of

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Speaker 2: verbal and physical abuse and threats in these fields. The

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Speaker 2: verbal sexist abuse is the most observed. Many did say

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Speaker 2: the abuse only became sexist when people disagreed with a call.

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Speaker 2: In the case of a referee, right and one study,

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Speaker 2: every single woman a referee interviewed reported having heard get

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Speaker 2: back in the kitchen. So yes, that is their go to.

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Speaker 2: That is their number one And actually it's like really depressing.

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Speaker 2: But it's kind of a funny story because in one

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Speaker 2: of the people from the study confronted one of the

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Speaker 2: men who said it, and he came down and he

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Speaker 2: was so could trite, and he's like old.

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Speaker 1: Or why I said it? I'm so sorry. She was like,

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Speaker 1: don't ever do that again and get out of here.

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Speaker 4: What the hell?

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00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 2: Oh that's funny, yeah, yeah, but it can get a

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00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:17,640
Speaker 2: lot darker. One person described basically thoughts of rape as

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Speaker 2: an assistant referee. She was sixteen and she almost dropped

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Speaker 2: out because of this experience, and the article was detailing

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Speaker 2: the basically all of the fallout and damage of things

395
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Speaker 2: like this and the loss of talent and women participating

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Speaker 2: if this is what is normalized and accepted, because yeah,

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Speaker 2: perhaps even more upsetting in a way. Some women did

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Speaker 2: not recognize verbal sexist abuse, suggesting it's been so normal

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Speaker 2: as they were just like, oh, I didn't think about it,

400
00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 2: which is sad. Others have reported not having places to

401
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 2: change and when asking about it, management giving them like

402
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 2: a storage cupboard or something, so that's not great. Also

403
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 2: just being dismissed or not respected. A lot of people

404
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 2: reported that referees always assuming that the man is the

405
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Speaker 2: head coach.

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Speaker 1: One woman in one of.

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Speaker 2: These surveys said, when you make a mistake, it's because

408
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 2: you're a woman. And yet there is sort of this

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Speaker 2: other side of it of being labeled as not feminine enough, right,

410
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 2: so like, you made that mistake because you're a woman,

411
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 2: but you're not, you're not feminine, assumptions that they don't

412
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 2: know the rules. There have been multiple instances of male commentators,

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Speaker 2: like we talked about our Olympics episodes basically saying she's

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00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,439
Speaker 2: a woman, she doesn't know what she's doing, and they

415
00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 2: are like the commentators she's listening to during the game. Right, Yeah,

416
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 2: stereotypes around physical and mental ability and inability to handle pressure.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people reported, right.

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Speaker 3: So here's a quote that sums it up pretty well.

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Speaker 3: The studies findings demonstrate that men's gender identities afford them

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00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 3: automatic and unquestioned access to the social dynamics of the

421
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 3: coach education system. Women, on the other hand, have to

422
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 3: earn this through their performance of appropriate levels of football

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00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 3: knowledge and skill, and these expectations often go far beyond

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Speaker 3: the level of performance required by men to gain the

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Speaker 3: same credibility.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and just as always, there's discrimination around having children

427
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Speaker 2: that could get pregnant.

428
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Speaker 4: Right.

429
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Speaker 2: I read one that was basically a male interviewer. It's like, Oh,

430
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Speaker 2: you don't want this job, you'll have to work on

431
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Speaker 2: the weekends, You'll have kids, you got to.

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Speaker 1: Take care of the kids. Okay.

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Speaker 2: And here's something This is kind of more complicated. I'll

434
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 2: talk about why in a second, but examples show women

435
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 2: coaches are more likely to get fired for similar behaviors.

436
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 2: Male coaches exhibit and are lauded for they are Women

437
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 2: coaches are less likely to be renewed despite a track

438
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 2: record for success. So, for instance, despite helping secure multiple

439
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 2: national championships for the University of Minnesota Duluth women's hockey

440
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 2: head coach Shannon Miller's contract was not renewed in twenty fourteen.

441
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 2: She didn't have any violations or anything, and she sued

442
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,719
Speaker 2: for gender discrimination, a suit she ended up winning and

443
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 2: was awarded three million dollars.

444
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 4: Gotta get that money.

445
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 1: Gotta get that money.

446
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: In a lot of instances where women coaches are fired

447
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 2: for abuse, they are never rehired, or if they are

448
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 2: not at the same level. The same is not true

449
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: for men. They don't usually get fired, and if they do,

450
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 2: they get rehired at an equal or even better position.

451
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: So I'm not advocating for this abuse, but the punishment

452
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 2: should be equal.

453
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: And that is not what we're seeing. Nope, it's not

454
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: what we're seeing at all.

455
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 2: There are a lot of toxic, old gender stereotypes here

456
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: that basically boil down to traditionally masculine coded traits are better,

457
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 2: but when a woman displays those straits, she is judged

458
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 2: far more harshly. So a lot of the stuff we're

459
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 2: talking about here is like a coach yelling at you,

460
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 2: and it.

461
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: Can be very abusive and has been.

462
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 2: But it's seen as like when men do that, oh yeah,

463
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 2: he's talking up his team. But when a woman doesn't, say, oh,

464
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: look at this shrew, she got to be she's.

465
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: Got to go again. I don't I'm not condoning abuse.

466
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 4: I don't think it's right.

467
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: But just saying here's a quote from the conversation. Another

468
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 2: problem is that female college athletes seem to value coaches

469
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: who act in dominance, sometimes authoritarian ways. When female athletes

470
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 2: are asked what they want to coach, they'll say they

471
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: want someone who's commanding, confidence, assertive, and knowledgeable. At the

472
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 2: same time, female athletes consider ideal female coaches to be carrying, supportive,

473
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: and nurturing. But this contradicts what they value in a coach.

474
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: Female coaches ultimately find themselves in a double bind. They're

475
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 2: damned if they act like men, and damned if they don't.

476
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: Yep.

477
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 2: Another issue, of course, equal pay. Many women coaches and

478
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,959
Speaker 2: referees are not getting paid what they're worth, not even close.

479
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 2: There's also a persistent idea that there's more respect to

480
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: be had coaching men's teams, which I found in some

481
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: articles even when I was looking into this. There's a

482
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 2: lack of standards and professionalization in these fields. There's unequal

483
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: resources usually given towards women athletes and women coaches and

484
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 2: women referees, all of that stuff. Nepotism and name recognition

485
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 2: is a problem, like gatekeeping is a problem here, the

486
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 2: risk of retaliation if you report something. There's been several

487
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 2: cases of that of women coaches or referees reporting wrongdoing

488
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: and being retaliated against, and often they might be told,

489
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: you know, just deal.

490
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 3: With it, right, so from Sage bubb quote. Among other inequities,

491
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 3: women coaches have lower salaries, fewer opportunities, poorer working conditions

492
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 3: and relationships, and more conflicts between coaching and family commitments

493
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 3: than their male counterparts due to lack of organizational policies

494
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 3: and cultural norms. The underrepresentation of women coaches is associated

495
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 3: with power relations in sports, which is considered as a

496
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 3: male dominated social context where men occupy dominant social roles

497
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 3: over women. Hegemonic masculinity. Still, coaching is heavily associated with

498
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 3: male characteristics, and women are considered invaders when holding positions

499
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 3: of power.

500
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 2: Yes, right, and as always, there are intersexual issues here

501
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 2: to coaches of color, black coaches, queer coaches all have

502
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 2: faced unique issues of backclash and discrimination. Marginalized people have

503
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 2: increased obstacles to entry. You have to deal with a

504
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 2: whole host of issues that many of their counterparts don't.

505
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 2: There has been some recent stuff looking into this, but

506
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 2: again a lot of this is pretty recent, and a

507
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: lot of these first even in these specific intersexual areas,

508
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 2: are very very recent, so a lot more to be done.

509
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 2: And speaking of people are looking into this because all

510
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 2: of this that we've been talking about as a negative

511
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: impact on women's mental health, women in sport in general,

512
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 2: I would say sport in general, just women's participation.

513
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: So a couple things.

514
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 2: That organizing bodies and people involved are looking into our

515
00:31:54,960 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 2: new regulations, like creating minimum standards of women, marginalize folks

516
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 2: in these positions, bringing more women to the table.

517
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: When making these regulations in the first place.

518
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 2: Because that has not happened really requiring marginalized people are

519
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 2: interviewed for leadership positions. Some have reported organizations outright mocking

520
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 2: or ignoring this though, so yep, organizations fostering mentoring and training.

521
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 2: So we talked about this pretty recently, so it has

522
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 2: been something that's been tried, but it's hard to.

523
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: Track.

524
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 2: It's hard to like quantify I guess the benefits of this,

525
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 2: but many have said who have participated in it, that

526
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 2: this helps women feel seen and heard and often allows

527
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,959
Speaker 2: for more open conversation, like maybe they will talk to

528
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 2: a mentor who is a woman as opposed to a

529
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 2: man because they don't feel like they can talk to

530
00:32:55,440 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 2: men about something. Compiling more research, getting more research that

531
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 2: we can have more educated regulations that we can put

532
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,239
Speaker 2: in place. And as yeah, as we've said recently, as

533
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 2: more women athletes enter the playing fields, more of them

534
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 2: become coaches and referees, and that continues.

535
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: So that's good. We are seeing growth, but there's still

536
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: all of these issues to deal with and there's still

537
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: so much further to go, right.

538
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, way too much.

539
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, but to everyone who's doing that work, thank

540
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: you so much. Honestly, Like.

541
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 2: The power of a good coach and a good referee

542
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: that can really stick with you, especially as a kid,

543
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 2: and you're like, oh, yes, like can really make you

544
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 2: want to keep going, or even if it's not in

545
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: the same sport, it can just be something that's really inspiring.

546
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: So yes listeners. If you are involved in either coaching

547
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: or refereeing, or sports in general, any of this, please

548
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 2: let us know. You can write to us at Stephania

549
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 2: Momstuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on

550
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 2: Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and tiktog

551
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 2: at stuff when Never Told You for us on YouTube.

552
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 2: We have a tea Puppy store and we have a

553
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: book you can get where we get your books. Thanks

554
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 2: as always to our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya.

555
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: And our contributor Joey. Thank you.

556
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 2: Thanks to you for listening. Steffan Never Told You is

557
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 2: production of my Heartradio. For more podcasts or my Heart Radio,

558
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 2: you can check out the heart Radio app, Apple podcast

559
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 2: or if you listen to your favorite shows