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Speaker 1: As far back on.

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Speaker 2: Normally, the show with normalis takes from when the news

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Speaker 2: gets weird.

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Speaker 1: I am Mark.

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Speaker 3: Havin Ham and I'm Carol Markowitz, and I'm not sure

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Speaker 3: is this the special episode? It was a special episode yesterday.

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Speaker 1: We're just doing a lot of special episodes. Is what's happening?

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Speaker 1: Because we cannot rest. There's no rest allowed.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, this is our first time having three episodes

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Speaker 3: in one week. It's been a big news week and

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Speaker 3: we felt like we couldn't just miss out on commenting

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Speaker 3: on all of it. So here we are again. The

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Speaker 3: US Supreme Court today upheld the Tennessee van on youth.

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Speaker 3: They call it Gender firm and Care. We know it

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Speaker 3: as access to puberty blockers, hormone treatments, sometimes surgery. It's

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Speaker 3: called the Scrimmetti ruling, and it came down today, so

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Speaker 3: we felt like we had to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is based on a twenty twenty three

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Speaker 2: law in Tennessee. It's called sp BE one that banned

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Speaker 2: this kind of treatment for transgender children and teens in

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Speaker 2: the state of Tennessee. It stipulates that you can still

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Speaker 2: use hormone therapy for people who have precocious puberty, who

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Speaker 2: people who have stalled out and have other.

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Speaker 1: Forms of issues.

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Speaker 2: The question before the court was basically like does this

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Speaker 2: violate the equal Protection Clause? And with a vote of

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Speaker 2: six to three, the Justice has decided that it does not.

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Speaker 2: They said that it did not discriminate based on sex.

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Speaker 2: They said that transgender was not a suspect or a

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Speaker 2: semi suspect class that would be those two things would

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Speaker 2: make it this laws subject to higher levels of scrutinary scrutiny.

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Speaker 2: And so the interesting thing. Part of the interesting thing

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Speaker 2: to me too is that Roberts is writing for the

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Speaker 2: court and to have Roberts just bat down each of

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Speaker 2: these arguments, so I think that's fairly like more powerful

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Speaker 2: and more unexpected than coming from someone who you assumed

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Speaker 2: would be on this side of it. So an interesting,

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Speaker 2: an interesting win for normalcy. Frankly, Yeah, normal.

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Speaker 3: Wins today that you know, it doesn't win every day,

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Speaker 3: but it won today, and it's it's nice to see

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Speaker 3: it because well, like we talk about on the show

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Speaker 3: a lot, it's it's tough to find. And I think

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Speaker 3: that this ruling really puts the Democrats into, uh backs

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Speaker 3: them into a corner that they are having trouble getting

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Speaker 3: out of which is their two main issues are extremely

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Speaker 3: unpopular with the American public. The Washington Post tried to

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Speaker 3: call this this ruling on a polarizing issue that the

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Speaker 3: Trump administration has seized on, and Matt Whitlock notes on

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Speaker 3: X it's actually not polarizing. The Washington Post's own polling

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Speaker 3: found that overwhelming majority of American support banning sex change

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Speaker 3: treatments and surgeries for children. The Supreme Court upheld Tennessee's

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Speaker 3: right to take that popular action.

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Speaker 2: Wait, and do you know who actually seized upon it?

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Speaker 2: The Biden administration worked with the transgender teens to bring

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Speaker 2: this to the Supreme Court. The whole reason it's at

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Speaker 2: the Supreme Court is because the Biden administration was like, nah,

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Speaker 2: y'all can't do this. They actually seized upon it. The

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Speaker 2: Trump administration ended up in this position with it going

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Speaker 2: to the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And so also Matt Woodlock points out that the

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Speaker 3: Post's own polling and he said, he points out, you know,

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Speaker 3: waypo is obviously not a conservative. Pollster found sixty eight

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Speaker 3: percent support for banning access to puberty blockers for kids

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Speaker 3: ten to fourteen and fifty eight percent for banning hormone

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Speaker 3: treatments for kids fifteen to seventeen. And this was in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, before this really blew up as an issue,

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Speaker 3: and those numbers have only gone up since.

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Speaker 2: A couple of mainstream media headlines, just to add to

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Speaker 2: your collection breaking this is ap the the Supreme Court

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Speaker 2: upholds a Tennessee ban on gender affirming care for transgender miners.

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Speaker 2: In a quote that's not it's actually it's not in quotes.

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Speaker 2: This is just them in a huge setback for transgender rights.

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Speaker 2: That's not a fair news headline at all. Another organization

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Speaker 2: said it authorizes harm for many transgender people in the US.

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Speaker 2: It's like authorized is harm. They're just dealing with They're

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Speaker 2: dealing with the question of whether a Tennessee law violates

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Speaker 2: federal law of the Constitution, and they found that it

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Speaker 2: doesn't either. That's it right, right anyway? Can you imagine

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Speaker 2: going back to yourself in twenty twelve and telling yourself

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Speaker 2: in twenty twelve that in twenty twenty five it would

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Speaker 2: be a question put before the court whether a state

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Speaker 2: has the power to say no, under eighteen, you're not

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Speaker 2: allowed to have sex change surgery and hormones can you imagine.

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Speaker 3: I just think the world has lost their mind, and

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Speaker 3: actually not the world, just us, really just us. Most

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Speaker 3: European countries completely ban again what people call gender firming

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Speaker 3: care for minors, and it's just it's not acceptable in

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Speaker 3: so many different places. Belgium, Germany, Italy, Netherlands all have

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Speaker 3: policies about not allowing this kind of thing, like puberty

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Speaker 3: blockers and hormone treatments. I believe Denmark recently joined that list.

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Speaker 3: There's like it is just it's really only America. And

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Speaker 3: I know I saw you get into it with the

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Speaker 3: American Academy of Pediatrics today.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Their statement is, the American Academy of Pediatric stance firmly

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Speaker 2: with pediatricians and families making healthcare decisions together and free

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Speaker 2: from political interference. We remain committed to advancing care that

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Speaker 2: protects the health, safety, and dignity of all children. And then,

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Speaker 2: in their tweet, gender affirming care remains evidence based, medically

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Speaker 2: necessary care that improves the health and well being of

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Speaker 2: transgender use. That's the part where they're tripping up on. Okay,

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Speaker 2: American Academy of Pediatrics is determined to be untrustworthy in

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Speaker 2: anything thorny, or they refuse to be smart, they refuse

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Speaker 2: to be nuanced, they refuse to look at changing evidence

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Speaker 2: or evidence at all because they're interested in signaling first.

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Speaker 2: And what Europe has done is followed the evidence and

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Speaker 2: they have found this is either not convincing or there's

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Speaker 2: countervailing evidence that this is actually quite damaging to children,

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Speaker 2: and so they have cut it out. The American Academy

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Speaker 2: of Pediatrics is like, nah, this is evidence based, and

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Speaker 2: the truth is that the data is not there. And

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Speaker 2: when the data is there, it's either not convincing or

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Speaker 2: it's the opposite. I mean, it's like goes the opposite direction.

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Speaker 2: So if they were following the evidence, and if they

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Speaker 2: were an evidence based organization, which we know from COVID

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Speaker 2: that they decided not to be, they would come to

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Speaker 2: and conclusions. And it is I know, I'm not surprised,

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Speaker 2: but it is discouraging to watch all of these institutions

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Speaker 2: fail to be smart.

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Speaker 3: This is your job, yeah, And the fact that they

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Speaker 3: are such an outlier, like a lot of what we

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Speaker 3: heard during for example, COVID or in other times when

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Speaker 3: conservatives are not the majority position, you hear this like, well,

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Speaker 3: we all agree on this, so you must be wrong

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Speaker 3: in this case. They do not all agree on it.

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Speaker 3: They are pushing ahead with this anyway. One interesting note

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Speaker 3: is that Justice Thomas had a footnote in the ruling

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Speaker 3: where he points out that Chase Strangio, who is the

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Speaker 3: co director of the American Civil Liberties Union, and he

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Speaker 3: was the lawyer who brought this case to the Supreme

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Speaker 3: Court on the side of wanting Tennessee to overturn their

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Speaker 3: ban on hormone and other therapies. Thomas points out that

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Speaker 3: Strangio had conceded that medical treatment actually did nothing to

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Speaker 3: minimize the risk of suicide and kids who were having

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Speaker 3: issues with their gender. So it's you know, parents are

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Speaker 3: lied to that if you don't enforce this, if you

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Speaker 3: don't support this, your kid could kill themselves. Right. The

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Speaker 3: whole thing was, you know, would you rather have a

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Speaker 3: dead girl or a live boy? And it's wrong. And

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Speaker 3: it's also just wrong on the facts because getting them

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Speaker 3: hormone blockers and putting them on any kind of treatment

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Speaker 3: as a child does not actually minimize the risk of suicide.

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Speaker 2: And just the idea that that kind of advice from

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Speaker 2: a medical professional is just a wholly emotional Blackmaile, has

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Speaker 2: nothing to do with the condition of your child, has

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Speaker 2: nothing to do with the evidence.

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Speaker 1: We now know.

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Speaker 2: It's horribly abusive for a provider to talk to parents

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Speaker 2: that way. It's coercive, it's nasty. It's just like which

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Speaker 2: doctor stuff. And you should you should not be doing.

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Speaker 1: That with your patients.

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Speaker 2: You should be having rational conversations with them about cost

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Speaker 2: benefit analyses.

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Speaker 1: But again, as we learned during COVID.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people capable of doing that. I do

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Speaker 2: think one of the downsides for the ACLU and transgender

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Speaker 2: activists and those who align with them about this case

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Speaker 2: is that it brought forward exactly that it's Strangio and

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Speaker 2: the ACLU's arguments and.

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Speaker 1: The data are weak.

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Speaker 2: There's real week and that was brought to the four

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Speaker 2: because the Biden administration and Strangio and the ACLU and

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Speaker 2: all their fellow travelers decided we got to go to

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court on this. And what they may have ended

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Speaker 2: up doing is putting down a lot of precedent that

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Speaker 2: they didn't intend to put down, and they may have

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Speaker 2: put out a lot of info that gets a lot

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Speaker 2: more attention that they want it to be getting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is again going back to the political political

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Speaker 3: ramifications of it. It's baffling to me that this is

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Speaker 3: what the Democrats have decided is their key issue and

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Speaker 3: it's so unpopular with the American people. Look, we've said

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Speaker 3: it on the show before. Do we think Democrats are

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Speaker 3: never going to win again? Of course not, of course,

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Speaker 3: not that you know, there's two political parties in America.

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Speaker 3: One of them wins some of the time, the other

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Speaker 3: one wins the other some of the time. And it's

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Speaker 3: i you know, there's no part of me that thinks

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Speaker 3: all the Democrats are out of the out of the ballgame.

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Speaker 3: But the fact is that it's June twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 3: and their two top issues are making sure that boys

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Speaker 3: can play in girls' sports and that kids and teens

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Speaker 3: get you know, hormone blockers and potentially surgery. And their

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Speaker 3: second issue is protecting the rights of the llegal immigrants

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Speaker 3: who are in the country without having gotten permission to

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Speaker 3: be here. And that is the two things that they

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Speaker 3: seem to care about the most. And it is just again,

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Speaker 3: I'm sure they'll win again someday, but very very hard

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Speaker 3: to see that right now.

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Speaker 1: I don't get it. Again.

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Speaker 2: This is why I just think they're unable to make

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Speaker 2: a turn, they're unable to pivot. I think they were

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Speaker 2: unable to see that Strangio's arguments weren't great. I listened

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Speaker 2: to the oral arguments and was unimpressed. The briefs had

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Speaker 2: all sorts of bad information in them for that side

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Speaker 2: of the case. And Justine Thomas noted in his concurrence

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Speaker 2: today he said states are never required to substitute expert

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Speaker 2: opinion for their legislative judgment, and when the experts appear

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Speaker 2: to have compromised their credibility, it makes good sense to

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Speaker 2: chart a different course. Courts should not assume that self

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Speaker 2: described experts are correct, and can we sit to.

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Speaker 1: Those in the back as we learned during COVID.

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Speaker 3: Like we should write a book called as we Learned

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Speaker 3: during COVID, like the AAP.

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Speaker 2: The people telling you this stuff, even your own provider,

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Speaker 2: sometimes they are incorrect. Their data is not there. They're

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Speaker 2: not They're sometimes not familiar with the data and pretend

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Speaker 2: to be. And it's so this is like a real

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Speaker 2: blow for sanity, and it's it's funny. I was actually

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Speaker 2: at a I think I remember vaguely.

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Speaker 1: It was a children's.

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Speaker 2: Birthday party in about twenty twelve, and like my friends

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Speaker 2: and I had just started having kids.

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Speaker 1: This is like a one year old's birthday party.

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Speaker 2: And I was standing around with a couple of a

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Speaker 2: couple of fellow politicos, and the transgender thing had sort

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Speaker 2: of just started to become part of the conversation and

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Speaker 2: we can decide whether to bleep this or not.

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Speaker 1: But I said, you know.

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Speaker 2: I gotta say, if Democrats decide that penis and are

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Speaker 2: just not a thing anymore and they mean nothing, I

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Speaker 2: don't think that.

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Speaker 1: Will go well for them.

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Speaker 3: Good call.

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Speaker 2: And it took many years for that prophecy to come true,

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Speaker 2: but that was the discussion to day.

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Speaker 3: But we were far away from the children when I

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Speaker 3: said this, right, it occurs sometimes they were one.

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Speaker 1: They were like clear of my influence. At this point,

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Speaker 1: I have to.

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Speaker 3: Say that I used to be Again I may have

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Speaker 3: mentioned this before, but I used to consider myself somebody

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Speaker 3: that would be considered pro trands. I used all the

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Speaker 3: pronouns that people would want to use. It really was

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Speaker 3: them coming for the children that shook me out of it.

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Speaker 3: And I know, like the path that I took to

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Speaker 3: get here, I know that like things got crazier and

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Speaker 3: crazier and crazier. I wrote about it this at one

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Speaker 3: point that I was banned from a liberal site I

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Speaker 3: used to comment on because I said that trans people

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Speaker 3: have to disclose it and that became something unaccepted to stay.

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Speaker 3: And as they kept pushing the envelope, they lost people

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Speaker 3: like me who would generally be on the side of

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Speaker 3: let people do whatever they want and let them live

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Speaker 3: how they want. But coming for the kids that was

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Speaker 3: the dividing line for me. For many Americans, we could

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Speaker 3: look back to a few years ago and this was

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Speaker 3: not an issue at all until it started coming for

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Speaker 3: the kids.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my two breaking points with it because like at

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Speaker 2: that particular time, it wasn't really like at.

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Speaker 1: The forefront of political issues. It had just.

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Speaker 2: Become something that lefty activists were discussing and so politicos

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Speaker 2: were interested in that, and I was like, I just

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Speaker 2: don't think this is going to turn out.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm not.

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Speaker 2: Sure the media and voter is there with them on this,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, I think I would have been of a

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Speaker 2: more libertarian bent until the policing of language and the

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Speaker 2: kid stuff, right, And I believe in our in guys.

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Speaker 2: In my book, in a discussion is twenty fifteen, shortly after.

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Speaker 1: This has become a national issue.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's still applicable, unfortunately, but an end of discussion.

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Speaker 2: We noted that when it comes to trans issues, which

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Speaker 2: is a particularly speech policed area with a lot of

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Speaker 2: people willing to get you fired for saying the wrong things,

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Speaker 2: at one point some coalition of trans allies and groups posted,

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Speaker 2: I believe a monthly if not weekly, update of language

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Speaker 2: that was okay to use, and we used that to say, hey,

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Speaker 2: this just seems.

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Speaker 1: Like a no win situation.

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Speaker 2: If we're going to go down this path, we can't

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Speaker 2: do monthly updates to everybody's acceptable language on these issues.

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Speaker 2: And so those two things combined certainly gave me pause,

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Speaker 2: and I think have given many, many many people pause.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's definitely a big part of it. Also, teachers

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Speaker 3: getting in trouble for not using the pronoun that the

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Speaker 3: teenager made up this week is clearly a huge issue.

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Speaker 3: Things like that just drove people away from you know

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Speaker 3: what would have been a non issue not that long ago.

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Speaker 3: I also like to say, you know, I love that

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Speaker 3: movie The Crying Game. And when that Crying Game came out,

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Speaker 3: that movie was seen as a very, very pro trans movie,

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Speaker 3: a guy falls in love with a trans woman and

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Speaker 3: tries to overlook it, but it's really hard. But he

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Speaker 3: ultimately is in love with this woman who was once

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Speaker 3: a man, and that was seen as very very pro trans.

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Speaker 3: That movie would be anti trans today. Oh yes, he

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Speaker 3: refers to her as a man. He says, you know,

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Speaker 3: she says, I'm just a girl, and he says, but

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Speaker 3: you're not a girl. And you know, things like that

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Speaker 3: would be completely not allowed now. And they you know,

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Speaker 3: they drove people away, and that's just the reality of it.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back on normally.

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Speaker 2: We do have one more bit of news just to

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Speaker 2: light in the mood here, which is that Trump has

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Speaker 2: installed at least one I don't know if he's done

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Speaker 2: both of them, but a one hundred foot flagpole, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think with a giant a giant American flag on

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Speaker 2: it on the White House lawn is huge.

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Speaker 3: It's like, you know, Texas sise huge.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it is both.

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Speaker 2: It's it's like car dealership on a Texas highway level.

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Speaker 1: That's what it should be.

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Speaker 3: You know, when I get to Texas and I see

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Speaker 3: those car dealerships with their American flag, I'm like this

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Speaker 3: is what living is all about, Like this is what

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Speaker 3: it's supposed to be.

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Speaker 2: Like, yeah, it's uh, it looks like that, and I look.

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Speaker 2: Uh the guy's into construction, which is good because this

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Speaker 2: is a very tall in my flagpole. So he's he's

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Speaker 2: assured us of all the specs on this thing. I

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Speaker 2: do enjoy that, like the next Democratic president is going

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Speaker 2: to have to be like I can't. I can't even

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Speaker 2: if I have aesthetic issues with the take picture of that.

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Speaker 1: You can't do anything about it. Like it's just it's there.

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Speaker 3: For right, forever and ever. So I can't wait to

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Speaker 3: go see it. I didn't realize that the flag was

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Speaker 3: Texas size.

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Speaker 2: I mean it's it looks very large in the anyone

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Speaker 2: this coming right, there's maybe two.

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Speaker 1: Now they have like a two.

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Speaker 2: Don't they have a part two hole out there on

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Speaker 2: the do as well. Yeah, the professional golfer was like

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Speaker 2: golfing out on the White House lawn.

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Speaker 3: Incredible.

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Speaker 2: Trump is yolowing with the designs of the old White

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Speaker 2: House this.

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Speaker 3: Time I have you know, we have our ups and downs,

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump and I. This has been a very upweek

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Speaker 3: for our relationship. I have been super into Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: This week.

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Speaker 3: I think you know on Iran he is one of

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Speaker 3: the clearest voices ever. I just it's it's unbelievable to

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Speaker 3: watch him in action. Sees everything so clearly in a

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Speaker 3: way that I just even other Republicans I don't think

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Speaker 3: see it quite like he does. And I've just been

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Speaker 3: I'm in a good place with with with the Donald,

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Speaker 3: T and I besties right now.

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Speaker 2: A good A good week for the Donald, so yeah,

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Speaker 2: and a good week for us here at normal We're

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Speaker 2: a lot of stuff episodes.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I don't know. We can't promise

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Speaker 3: three episodes always, but well we'll do our best, right.

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Speaker 1: We felt like this one was important.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was important, so well. Thanks for joining us

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Speaker 3: on Normally Normally allegedly airs Tuesdays and Thursdays, and subscribe

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Speaker 3: anywhere you get your podcasts. Get in touch with us

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Speaker 3: at normallythepod at gmail dot com. Thanks for listening, and

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Speaker 3: when things get weird, act normally