WEBVTT - “I Will Never Leave You” 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:15.436 Pushkin. 0:00:30.396 --> 0:00:33.596 He got to the airport, He's like on the tarmac literally, 0:00:33.876 --> 0:00:36.796 and got a message from his doctor that was like, 0:00:37.676 --> 0:00:40.156 I can see nodules on your chest X ray, which 0:00:40.196 --> 0:00:44.196 means I can see tumors in your lungs and obviously 0:00:44.236 --> 0:00:47.996 that's really bad. And he turned off his phone. He 0:00:48.076 --> 0:00:50.396 flew back and then I picked him up from the 0:00:50.436 --> 0:00:53.916 airport and then he told me the message he had 0:00:53.956 --> 0:00:57.676 gotten and then I said, I will never leave you, 0:00:58.156 --> 0:00:59.316 and that was that. 0:01:00.436 --> 0:01:03.996 Lucy Kalanathy remembers the moment her husband Paul told her 0:01:04.076 --> 0:01:07.956 he had terminal cancer. In that moment, Lucy says, she 0:01:08.036 --> 0:01:11.916 felt her future slip away, so she became hyper focused 0:01:11.996 --> 0:01:15.436 on the present. She decided that she would dedicate herself 0:01:15.476 --> 0:01:18.036 to helping Paul prepare for his death and make the 0:01:18.116 --> 0:01:19.556 most of his remaining time. 0:01:20.516 --> 0:01:24.116 There is so much that people go through when someone's dying, 0:01:24.196 --> 0:01:26.396 Like in terms of decision making, is this what they 0:01:26.396 --> 0:01:29.756 would have wanted? What if? And like guilt did we 0:01:29.876 --> 0:01:32.116 do it right? Is this really it? 0:01:35.156 --> 0:01:38.716 On today's show, when an unexpected death erases the life 0:01:38.756 --> 0:01:43.396 you'd imagined, how do you build a new one. I'm 0:01:43.436 --> 0:01:46.156 maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 0:01:46.356 --> 0:01:48.636 A show about who we are and who we become 0:01:48.956 --> 0:02:02.476 in the face of a big change. I first came 0:02:02.516 --> 0:02:05.556 across doctor Lucy Klanethie when I read the book When 0:02:05.596 --> 0:02:09.756 Breath Becomes Heir. It's a memoir written by lucy husband 0:02:09.916 --> 0:02:14.156 Paul Kalanathi, who is also a medical doctor. He writes 0:02:14.196 --> 0:02:17.676 about his experience navigating a terminal cancer diagnosis in his 0:02:17.756 --> 0:02:21.636 thirties and his efforts to find peace with his impending death. 0:02:22.636 --> 0:02:24.956 Lucy wrote the epilogue for the book and helped to 0:02:24.996 --> 0:02:29.196 publish it posthumously. It was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize. 0:02:30.636 --> 0:02:34.996 Lucy lost Paul more than eight years ago. Their daughter, Katie, 0:02:35.076 --> 0:02:38.116 was just a baby at the time. I wanted to 0:02:38.156 --> 0:02:41.036 hear how Lucy reflects on her life with Paul after 0:02:41.116 --> 0:02:44.756 all these years. What's changed since then and what hasn't 0:02:45.596 --> 0:02:47.236 we began with how they first met. 0:02:48.316 --> 0:02:50.116 Well, I'll tell you, like the real story. It was 0:02:50.236 --> 0:02:52.596 kind of a scandal. We were in the same class 0:02:52.596 --> 0:02:54.916 in medical school and we only had one hundred people 0:02:54.916 --> 0:02:56.596 in our class, so it actually ends up feeling more 0:02:56.596 --> 0:02:59.676 like high school, you know, and everyone is like sitting 0:02:59.676 --> 0:03:02.036 on each other's laps basically all day every day, and 0:03:02.076 --> 0:03:04.876 it's really kind of intimate because you're doing anatomy lab 0:03:04.956 --> 0:03:07.396 and you're all like learning and a little freaked out. 0:03:07.396 --> 0:03:11.596 So anyway, we I at each other there and at 0:03:11.636 --> 0:03:14.956 first I was like, Oh, there's the smartest kid in 0:03:14.996 --> 0:03:18.236 our class, Like he was running this bioethics seminar on 0:03:18.276 --> 0:03:20.596 the side and it was just really smart. And then 0:03:21.276 --> 0:03:23.396 one day I sat with him at lunch and he 0:03:23.556 --> 0:03:26.196 was super funny and it kind of came out of 0:03:26.276 --> 0:03:27.716 left field for me. I was like, oh my god. 0:03:28.156 --> 0:03:31.996 And then I sort of became interested in him after that. 0:03:32.316 --> 0:03:35.796 And meanwhile, he had a girlfriend and so that was 0:03:35.836 --> 0:03:38.076 like a little thing to work out. I was like, 0:03:38.116 --> 0:03:40.396 you need to find me after you know what's going 0:03:40.436 --> 0:03:44.156 on with that. And then I actually won a date 0:03:44.236 --> 0:03:47.396 with him in an auction, no way. We had a 0:03:47.396 --> 0:03:53.076 fundraiser and his date was actually a shooting range nearby Yale, 0:03:53.356 --> 0:03:56.476 and mostly guys put their names in the box and 0:03:56.516 --> 0:03:57.956 I was like, I'm just going to put one and 0:03:59.276 --> 0:04:01.156 I didn't even want to go to a shooting range. 0:04:01.196 --> 0:04:03.636 And then he went on a trip to Barcelona with 0:04:03.676 --> 0:04:07.036 his girlfriend and was in like an internet cafe in 0:04:07.076 --> 0:04:09.476 two thousand and three and got this email is like, 0:04:09.916 --> 0:04:13.516 Lucy has won your shooting range date. And then he's like, okay, 0:04:13.516 --> 0:04:17.756 I guess this is done. And then I saved the 0:04:17.796 --> 0:04:20.116 thing forever. It was like one of those creepy like 0:04:20.196 --> 0:04:22.996 shooting range outlines and then shows like where you shot 0:04:23.076 --> 0:04:25.916 the persons. I hated it, but I saved it for 0:04:25.916 --> 0:04:27.516 a really long time and hung it on the wall. 0:04:27.996 --> 0:04:28.396 I love that. 0:04:28.436 --> 0:04:30.476 I mean, I'm thinking back to when you know, I 0:04:30.516 --> 0:04:34.196 was trying to woo my husband, Jimmy, and I was 0:04:34.236 --> 0:04:37.036 willing to pretend that I liked philosophy more than I 0:04:37.076 --> 0:04:40.876 actually did. But you really you run laps around me 0:04:40.956 --> 0:04:43.076 in terms of your willingness to like show your interest 0:04:43.156 --> 0:04:45.996 in someone, because shooting range would have been out of 0:04:46.716 --> 0:04:48.356 it would have just been out of the question. Are 0:04:48.436 --> 0:04:51.356 we doing. Yeah, it's like philosophy paper, Okay, fine, I'll 0:04:51.356 --> 0:04:53.276 get into it. Shooting range never. 0:04:53.556 --> 0:04:56.036 Yeah, I like hated holding the gun and stuff. I 0:04:56.036 --> 0:04:57.196 was like, I hate everything. 0:04:58.276 --> 0:05:01.236 So I think the fact that you that reveals a 0:05:01.276 --> 0:05:04.356 lot to me about about your interests. True, yeah, your 0:05:04.356 --> 0:05:05.316 interest in Paul. 0:05:06.396 --> 0:05:08.476 Like yeah, you know how it's just like you have 0:05:08.556 --> 0:05:10.556 a little and you're trying to feel it out, Like 0:05:10.596 --> 0:05:13.836 you're sort of like walking around each other like animals. 0:05:14.236 --> 0:05:16.916 I feel like in a circle, like what's going on 0:05:16.996 --> 0:05:19.876 with you? What's coming on with you? So we were 0:05:19.876 --> 0:05:23.076 in like that phase. We were kind of friends, but 0:05:23.116 --> 0:05:25.716 we sort of were like falling in love secretly, unbeknownst 0:05:25.716 --> 0:05:29.636 to each other. So Paul's Indian and I'm white, and 0:05:29.676 --> 0:05:31.796 we were walking on the street in New Haven and 0:05:31.836 --> 0:05:34.436 this person who was sitting on the street yelled out, 0:05:35.076 --> 0:05:38.956 love is colorblind. And I was like, oh my god, 0:05:38.996 --> 0:05:42.556 we're not even dating, but like this stranger I can see, 0:05:42.836 --> 0:05:45.036 and I just remember being like, it's a thing. And 0:05:45.116 --> 0:05:48.316 I was like, that's my dude. And then that was it. Wow. 0:05:48.396 --> 0:05:49.356 Then we're together forever. 0:05:49.796 --> 0:05:53.716 So you and Paul ultimately get married, and about five 0:05:53.796 --> 0:05:56.756 or so years later things start to become a bit 0:05:56.836 --> 0:05:59.396 rocky in your marriage. Can you tell me a bit 0:05:59.436 --> 0:06:00.756 more about that period of time. 0:06:01.636 --> 0:06:05.516 Yeah. Sure. We fell in love at the beginning of 0:06:05.556 --> 0:06:07.876 medical school and sort of grew up as doctors together 0:06:07.956 --> 0:06:11.676 and then moved to and entered our residencies. And residency 0:06:11.796 --> 0:06:15.276 is just such a grind. There's a work hour limit 0:06:15.356 --> 0:06:17.676 on how many hours you can work every week and 0:06:17.716 --> 0:06:21.676 the limit is eighty and then people stop recording their 0:06:21.716 --> 0:06:24.436 hours because they're gonna get in trouble for staying longer. 0:06:24.516 --> 0:06:27.356 And so you're super tired. You're like ships in the 0:06:27.476 --> 0:06:31.596 night on your schedules, working overnight all the time, sleeping 0:06:31.636 --> 0:06:35.076 in the day, going back, and so I think some 0:06:35.156 --> 0:06:38.716 of it was just we were like so tired not 0:06:38.756 --> 0:06:41.996 seeing each other that much. I was still learning, we 0:06:41.996 --> 0:06:45.676 were both still learning, Like I'm highly extroverted. Paul was introverted. 0:06:45.876 --> 0:06:48.756 He was really gregarious, but also introverted in terms of 0:06:48.756 --> 0:06:51.996 how we processed his feelings, and he needed some time 0:06:52.036 --> 0:06:54.396 to process. I would be like, I just told you 0:06:54.436 --> 0:06:56.516 everything about how I feel, like say something back. He 0:06:56.596 --> 0:06:59.756 would be like, and like, I felt like he was 0:06:59.796 --> 0:07:03.676 stonewalling me, but he wasn't. He was like processing and 0:07:03.716 --> 0:07:06.076 it honestly, we'd been married for like a few years. 0:07:06.116 --> 0:07:10.076 It took me a while to see that, and so 0:07:10.116 --> 0:07:13.116 we just sort of started like budding heads or feeling 0:07:13.556 --> 0:07:17.036 not seen during that time and not quite giving each 0:07:17.076 --> 0:07:20.316 other the benefit of the doubt, but like loving each 0:07:20.316 --> 0:07:22.836 other so much during the whole time. It was very confusing. 0:07:23.596 --> 0:07:27.076 And then we were entering academic practice and I'm an 0:07:27.076 --> 0:07:31.276 internest and he was a neurosurgeon, and neurosurgery culture is 0:07:31.356 --> 0:07:34.316 also just so intense and it stays like that forever. 0:07:34.836 --> 0:07:36.916 And I was just like, is this going to get better? 0:07:37.076 --> 0:07:39.436 And his mode was like, I just have to get 0:07:39.436 --> 0:07:42.476 my academic job. I can only think about getting my job. 0:07:43.076 --> 0:07:46.036 And then he started to lose weight during that time 0:07:46.236 --> 0:07:48.316 and started to feel sick during that time, and I 0:07:48.356 --> 0:07:51.556 was like, something's going sideways, but we weren't able to 0:07:51.596 --> 0:07:55.476 talk about it, and that was just really a rocky time. 0:07:56.396 --> 0:07:59.196 Yeah, And what did you both describe those symptoms too 0:07:59.356 --> 0:08:01.476 at the time? Did you think it was just stress 0:08:01.556 --> 0:08:04.116 and burnout? I mean there's a lot of confounding variables there, 0:08:04.156 --> 0:08:05.116 I imagine totally. 0:08:05.516 --> 0:08:09.356 Totally. Yeah, So we didn't quite notice initially, but he 0:08:09.356 --> 0:08:11.956 started having back pain, He's getting tired, and then he 0:08:11.996 --> 0:08:16.476 started to get some scarier symptoms like night sweats. Night 0:08:16.516 --> 0:08:20.796 sweats are kind of spooky medically, it often means something 0:08:20.836 --> 0:08:24.316 more serious is happening, like cancer, tuberculosis something. We kind 0:08:24.316 --> 0:08:27.356 of both knew that. And then he started to have 0:08:27.396 --> 0:08:33.396 a cough and then during that time, we were going 0:08:33.436 --> 0:08:35.876 to go on a trip together to visit his college friends. 0:08:35.916 --> 0:08:37.556 A whole group of people were going to convene in 0:08:37.556 --> 0:08:40.756 New York, and we were kind of in the middle 0:08:40.796 --> 0:08:44.516 of what's going on with our marriage, and we're both hurtying, 0:08:45.156 --> 0:08:47.516 and I said, I don't want to go on the trip. 0:08:47.596 --> 0:08:49.916 I'm going to stay home and think about things and 0:08:49.956 --> 0:08:53.356 take a breath. And then he went on the trip alone, 0:08:53.796 --> 0:08:56.756 and actually during the trip was when he started to 0:08:56.796 --> 0:09:01.196 get his formal diagnosis. He describes how he was like 0:09:01.236 --> 0:09:04.076 in a train station going to meet the friends and 0:09:04.116 --> 0:09:08.356 then was having this horrendous back pain. His back was spasming, 0:09:08.436 --> 0:09:10.876 and he lay down on a bench and then the 0:09:10.916 --> 0:09:12.956 security guard came over and was like, excuse me, sir, 0:09:13.076 --> 0:09:15.036 you can't be lying down on the bench right now. Sorry, 0:09:15.036 --> 0:09:18.076 you have to stand up. And he like almost said 0:09:19.116 --> 0:09:22.676 I can't. I'm dying of cancer. And he didn't even 0:09:22.756 --> 0:09:24.956 know that he had cancer, but it sort of came 0:09:24.996 --> 0:09:27.876 into his mind or like I can't I have cancer, 0:09:28.156 --> 0:09:30.756 Like something flashed into his mind and he's like, oh 0:09:30.836 --> 0:09:33.156 my gosh. And then he told a friend. He's like, 0:09:33.196 --> 0:09:35.716 I think I might have cancer, not the good kind. 0:09:36.716 --> 0:09:39.556 And his friend was like, well, let me bring you 0:09:39.596 --> 0:09:42.236 to the airport. I'll mail your bag back for you 0:09:42.676 --> 0:09:46.076 so you don't have to carry it. So then he 0:09:46.196 --> 0:09:49.596 got to the airport. He's on the tarmac, I think literally, 0:09:49.836 --> 0:09:52.796 and got a message from his doctor that was like, 0:09:53.716 --> 0:09:56.156 I can see nodules on your X ray, which means 0:09:56.236 --> 0:10:00.116 I can see tumors in your lungs, and obviously that's 0:10:00.196 --> 0:10:04.396 really bad. And he turned off his phone. He flew back, 0:10:04.516 --> 0:10:06.916 it's like on his five hour flight. And then I 0:10:06.996 --> 0:10:08.916 picked him up from the airport and then we drove 0:10:08.956 --> 0:10:10.676 home and we were sitting on the sofa, and then 0:10:10.716 --> 0:10:14.796 he told me the message he had gotten. And then 0:10:14.836 --> 0:10:18.676 I said, I will never leave you. And that was that. 0:10:19.756 --> 0:10:23.716 I want to dig into your very immediate automatic response 0:10:23.756 --> 0:10:26.436 to Paul, like where did the clarity come from? 0:10:27.116 --> 0:10:30.476 You can be so mad at someone and hurt and 0:10:31.516 --> 0:10:34.516 love them so much, and it's like you can do 0:10:34.636 --> 0:10:36.596 all those things at the same time in a marriage. 0:10:36.636 --> 0:10:39.796 You know. I always had this idea of like, oh, 0:10:40.196 --> 0:10:43.236 this is the thing we're going to do together. Like 0:10:43.756 --> 0:10:47.476 we love each other somehow, We've grown together. We know 0:10:47.556 --> 0:10:50.476 each other so well. We have this like language built 0:10:50.476 --> 0:10:53.196 around suffering because we talk about our patients all the time. 0:10:53.276 --> 0:10:56.796 We talk about life, and then it was like, oh 0:10:56.836 --> 0:11:01.716 my gosh, it's happening to us and turns out this 0:11:01.756 --> 0:11:04.756 is how it turns out. And then this other weird 0:11:04.756 --> 0:11:07.756 thing happened where we sort of suddenly gave each other 0:11:07.836 --> 0:11:11.716 this spaciousness because because things were so extreme, Like I 0:11:11.796 --> 0:11:14.076 remember saying, I was like, how can I help you? 0:11:14.876 --> 0:11:19.236 Do you want to travel around the world with your brothers? 0:11:19.396 --> 0:11:22.156 I was just like, literally like what do you secretly 0:11:22.196 --> 0:11:25.316 wish for? Because I like want to help you get it. 0:11:25.316 --> 0:11:28.196 It was so interesting, and then he was like, I 0:11:28.276 --> 0:11:29.396 only want to be with you. 0:11:31.676 --> 0:11:33.676 So you tell him you're never going to leave him. 0:11:34.556 --> 0:11:36.556 What happens next? What are the next few days like 0:11:36.596 --> 0:11:38.956 in terms of getting that formal diagnosis. 0:11:39.676 --> 0:11:41.836 Yeah, he got admitted to the hospital the next day 0:11:41.996 --> 0:11:44.116 for what's called expedited workup, which is like you go 0:11:44.196 --> 0:11:45.476 in and you get your cat skins and all the 0:11:45.476 --> 0:11:49.436 stuff done quickly in biopsy, and we went to the 0:11:49.476 --> 0:11:53.316 hospital and then we got admitted to the hospital room. 0:11:54.156 --> 0:11:56.516 We had like hospital credentials, right, so we could log 0:11:56.596 --> 0:11:59.356 into the computer and like look at the records, and 0:12:00.036 --> 0:12:03.756 he opened up the actual radiology images of the cat 0:12:03.796 --> 0:12:06.356 skin and you're like scrolling up and down through the films. 0:12:06.356 --> 0:12:08.116 You can see the spine, you can see the lungs, 0:12:08.796 --> 0:12:12.796 and he talks about this sat skin was different because 0:12:12.836 --> 0:12:14.676 it was my own, Like I had done this so 0:12:14.796 --> 0:12:18.956 many times for patients, and he would have looked at 0:12:18.956 --> 0:12:20.956 this one and like dispatched with it and like I 0:12:20.996 --> 0:12:23.596 hate do surgery in this case. And instead he's looking 0:12:23.596 --> 0:12:26.796 at his own terrible scan. And it's like, you know, 0:12:26.956 --> 0:12:29.756 part of being a doctor is like figuring out how 0:12:29.796 --> 0:12:32.236 to be a mediator, right, like how to take these 0:12:32.276 --> 0:12:36.396 images and then relay them to somebody to help give 0:12:36.436 --> 0:12:38.756 them context stuff like what this means and what it 0:12:38.796 --> 0:12:40.676 means to them as a person and in their life. 0:12:40.756 --> 0:12:44.276 And there wasn't any of that. There was just like bang, 0:12:44.716 --> 0:12:44.916 you know. 0:12:45.236 --> 0:12:45.316 Ye. 0:12:45.756 --> 0:12:48.396 Also, as soon as he was diagnosed, he was like 0:12:49.036 --> 0:12:50.636 this was so crazy. It was the same day he 0:12:50.716 --> 0:12:53.916 was like, I want you to get remarried. 0:12:53.436 --> 0:12:55.716 The same day as the diagnosis. 0:12:55.516 --> 0:12:59.076 Literally the same day. Yeah. It was so interesting because 0:12:59.116 --> 0:13:01.836 I was like, oh, he's saying so much. By saying that, 0:13:01.916 --> 0:13:05.196 he's saying I see what's happening, You see what's happening. 0:13:05.516 --> 0:13:09.276 I care about you and love you into a future 0:13:09.436 --> 0:13:13.036 where I won't even be there, and I'm going to 0:13:13.076 --> 0:13:17.116 say the whole thing out loud. It's scary stuff to 0:13:17.116 --> 0:13:19.516 talk about, and I think a lot of times people 0:13:19.516 --> 0:13:22.436 are really scared to admit to each other what's happening, 0:13:22.516 --> 0:13:25.756 or like try to hide it. And so somehow, amidst 0:13:25.836 --> 0:13:29.956 the spaciousness, it also was kind of stark between us 0:13:29.996 --> 0:13:34.196 in a way that was really kind of raw and honest, 0:13:34.596 --> 0:13:37.956 and then we sort of like filled that in with 0:13:37.996 --> 0:13:41.796 scaffolding once we were able to like come back down 0:13:41.796 --> 0:13:44.556 to earth, because it takes away and it takes like 0:13:44.716 --> 0:13:47.756 months to even feel like you're in your body or 0:13:47.796 --> 0:13:50.156 like you have any sense of how you might piece 0:13:50.236 --> 0:13:51.556 together a different future. 0:13:52.476 --> 0:13:54.316 I am curious to hear more when you talk about 0:13:54.356 --> 0:13:57.436 opening up that space for one another, what did that 0:13:57.476 --> 0:13:59.356 look like for me? 0:13:59.596 --> 0:14:03.716 I think I backed off of expectation. I was just like, 0:14:04.036 --> 0:14:06.396 this is so huge. You know, he's like facing this 0:14:06.476 --> 0:14:10.836 complete upheaval and identity. He's understanding that he's dying sooner 0:14:10.876 --> 0:14:15.116 than expected. And I wasn't in his face like tell 0:14:15.116 --> 0:14:16.916 me how this is going, how's it going, how's it going? 0:14:16.956 --> 0:14:18.876 Like what are you thinking? You know? I was just 0:14:18.916 --> 0:14:22.796 like I am going to give him space and he'll 0:14:22.836 --> 0:14:26.556 talk to me sometime. And he started whispering to me 0:14:26.756 --> 0:14:29.036 in the middle of the night. He'd be like, I 0:14:29.076 --> 0:14:29.956 don't want to die. 0:14:31.076 --> 0:14:31.436 Wow. 0:14:31.716 --> 0:14:35.516 And then we would just be together under the blanket. 0:14:35.796 --> 0:14:41.516 And so I think I just instinctively gave him space, 0:14:41.556 --> 0:14:47.956 and then he sort of came to me, We'll. 0:14:47.836 --> 0:15:00.636 Be right back with a slight change of plans. Lucy 0:15:00.716 --> 0:15:04.796 Kalanathy and her husband Paul, met in medical school. They'd 0:15:04.836 --> 0:15:07.636 been married for seven years when Paul found out he 0:15:07.716 --> 0:15:11.916 had terminal cancer. Their daughter Katie hadn't been born yet. 0:15:12.116 --> 0:15:14.996 They were just two young doctors focused on their careers. 0:15:16.036 --> 0:15:18.476 I was curious to know whether their jobs as medical 0:15:18.516 --> 0:15:24.276 professionals affected how they processed Paul's diagnosis. As doctors, I mean, 0:15:24.316 --> 0:15:28.676 illness is front and center. You know, you engage with suffering, dying, 0:15:28.716 --> 0:15:31.956 and death constantly, even though you can never imagine what 0:15:31.956 --> 0:15:33.756 it's going to feel like when it happens to you. 0:15:34.356 --> 0:15:39.236 Do you feel like that exposure maybe helped foster faster 0:15:39.356 --> 0:15:41.796 acceptance in both of you, or made you feel more 0:15:41.796 --> 0:15:44.276 prepared for this moment or what was to come. 0:15:44.996 --> 0:15:47.916 Yeah, I think absolutely, and I think some of it 0:15:47.996 --> 0:15:52.356 was special to Paul just as a person, because he 0:15:52.516 --> 0:15:54.476 had actually never thought he would be a doctor. He 0:15:54.956 --> 0:15:59.196 studied English literature and then did a master's in bioethics 0:15:59.236 --> 0:16:02.396 and thought about being a literature philosophy professor, and was 0:16:02.636 --> 0:16:06.436 very interested in thinking about mortality and meaning. And then 0:16:06.476 --> 0:16:09.596 I think he wrote this interesting thing in his book 0:16:09.596 --> 0:16:12.276 where he says something like people ask themselves a lot 0:16:12.316 --> 0:16:15.636 why me, And he's like, I think a more helpful question, 0:16:15.796 --> 0:16:17.916 or maybe a more apt question, is why not me? 0:16:18.836 --> 0:16:22.036 And I think there's nothing that would exempt any of 0:16:22.116 --> 0:16:25.876 us from suffering of some kind and being doctors and 0:16:25.956 --> 0:16:29.556 just seeing so many seemingly unfair things happen to people 0:16:29.636 --> 0:16:35.036 all the time, Like as a neurosurgeon, it's literally like tumor, trauma, aneurism, 0:16:35.356 --> 0:16:38.716 all kinds of various neurologic disorders that totally screw with 0:16:38.756 --> 0:16:42.116 your identity and your sense of meaning. And so we 0:16:42.316 --> 0:16:45.716 had thought about it before, which I think helped somewhat. 0:16:46.756 --> 0:16:48.636 And then it was like, oh, my God, turns out 0:16:48.636 --> 0:16:52.436 this is our life too, which is not easy, right. 0:16:52.916 --> 0:16:54.196 It's sort of like you zoom in and out. It's 0:16:54.196 --> 0:16:56.276 not like he was like one and done acceptance. There 0:16:56.316 --> 0:16:59.036 was like luck on the first day in terms of acceptance, 0:16:59.076 --> 0:17:01.596 and then you just have to keep wrestling and pinning 0:17:01.676 --> 0:17:03.836 it down or letting it go and pinning it down right, 0:17:03.916 --> 0:17:06.556 meditating and getting it down. I'll just say an interesting 0:17:06.596 --> 0:17:09.716 thing about Paul, because it was so him. We were 0:17:09.756 --> 0:17:11.716 packing to go to the hospital, and I was like, 0:17:11.836 --> 0:17:15.676 insurance card, fuzzy socks, phone charger, We're going to like 0:17:15.796 --> 0:17:19.916 walk into this situation where he's going to find out 0:17:19.916 --> 0:17:24.796 he has terminal cancer. And then he packed books and 0:17:24.836 --> 0:17:29.156 he took like he took Being in Time by Heideger, 0:17:29.396 --> 0:17:31.396 this book called Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis, and 0:17:31.396 --> 0:17:35.476 then a novel by the Russian author Sulsanitzen called Cancer Ward. Gosh, 0:17:35.516 --> 0:17:38.596 it's like this little like religion, philosophy and literature. And 0:17:38.676 --> 0:17:42.556 I was like, that is so interesting. Like he didn't 0:17:42.636 --> 0:17:46.236 take like medical textbooks. He's like, what I'm going to need, 0:17:46.276 --> 0:17:47.076 here's books. 0:17:47.836 --> 0:17:50.596 It says to me that he didn't see his sole 0:17:50.716 --> 0:17:53.196 job as simply fighting cancer. 0:17:53.356 --> 0:17:53.996 In that moment. 0:17:54.236 --> 0:17:58.316 It feels like he was continuing the project of finding 0:17:58.756 --> 0:18:01.436 meaning making in his life despite all the stuff that 0:18:01.516 --> 0:18:02.556 was going on around him. 0:18:02.956 --> 0:18:06.196 Yeah, there's a lot of things you could fight for right, 0:18:06.436 --> 0:18:10.596 You could fight for being able to do something you 0:18:10.676 --> 0:18:14.276 really love, or like fight to stay home or fight 0:18:14.396 --> 0:18:17.436 to have your family be okay after you go. And 0:18:17.436 --> 0:18:20.836 then I also think dying is a thing that people do. 0:18:21.276 --> 0:18:24.076 It's really hard, it's hard to get your head around, 0:18:24.116 --> 0:18:29.196 it's physically hard. And he thought a lot about how 0:18:29.236 --> 0:18:32.836 do people think about dying? And I think for him, 0:18:33.956 --> 0:18:39.596 encountering his mortality and going through that process pretty unflinchingly 0:18:40.556 --> 0:18:44.676 was a thing he was trying to do in his life. 0:18:44.876 --> 0:18:50.356 Yeah, I mean, it feels like his desire to, like 0:18:50.396 --> 0:18:54.436 you said, find peace with his mortality, his desire to 0:18:54.596 --> 0:18:58.476 find meaningful things to occupy the remaining time that he 0:18:59.196 --> 0:19:05.236 had on this planet, expressed itself in many very impressive ways. 0:19:05.356 --> 0:19:08.636 I mean, he returned to his work as a neurosurgeon, 0:19:09.236 --> 0:19:11.676 he wrote a memoir, and I think the biggest choice 0:19:11.676 --> 0:19:14.196 of all was ultimately you both decided to even have 0:19:14.236 --> 0:19:16.316 a child during this period of time. 0:19:17.116 --> 0:19:21.156 So despite all that we've talked about with having these 0:19:21.236 --> 0:19:24.796 challenges in our marriage, we had also been planning to 0:19:24.796 --> 0:19:26.716 have a baby around the same time, like that was 0:19:26.756 --> 0:19:30.396 swirling around, I mean, very soon after his diagnosis, we 0:19:30.436 --> 0:19:33.316 thought about it because we had to go to a 0:19:33.356 --> 0:19:37.076 sperm bank before he started treatment, and so we thought 0:19:37.116 --> 0:19:39.156 about it in different ways. I think he was more 0:19:39.196 --> 0:19:41.316 certain than I was at the beginning he really wanted 0:19:41.356 --> 0:19:43.756 to have a child. I was worried that it was 0:19:43.916 --> 0:19:47.756 just like the potential for more pain and uncertainty. I 0:19:47.796 --> 0:19:51.636 was like, whoa, that's like a whole uncertain process. And 0:19:51.676 --> 0:19:55.076 then the other thing I was scared of was I 0:19:55.196 --> 0:19:57.916 was worried that it would just be really painful for Paul, 0:19:58.116 --> 0:20:01.196 like as he got sicker, if and when he got sicker, 0:20:01.356 --> 0:20:03.396 like to say goodbye to a child, It's just like 0:20:03.516 --> 0:20:07.716 that's bananas, And how could you choose that? And so 0:20:07.836 --> 0:20:09.316 I was like, don't you thinks it's going to make 0:20:09.396 --> 0:20:13.796 this way harder for you? And he said, wouldn't it 0:20:13.836 --> 0:20:17.036 be great if it did make it harder? And that 0:20:17.196 --> 0:20:20.876 was like totally crystallizing for me. There's a million things 0:20:20.876 --> 0:20:23.156 we do in our lives that do not make our 0:20:23.196 --> 0:20:27.756 lives easier, you know, everything, Yeah, climbing a literal mountain 0:20:27.956 --> 0:20:29.236 just to get to the top and go back down. 0:20:29.356 --> 0:20:34.516 I mean like everything that's meaningful. And so nobody's having 0:20:34.516 --> 0:20:36.236 a kid because they think it's going to be easy, 0:20:36.396 --> 0:20:39.396 like that's not a thing. So and then our family 0:20:39.556 --> 0:20:41.476 was really into the idea. My mom was worried about me, 0:20:41.556 --> 0:20:44.076 but we just had family support to think about it. 0:20:44.476 --> 0:20:46.636 And so then yeah, we had our daughter and she 0:20:46.796 --> 0:20:48.436 was born eight months before Paul died. 0:20:49.236 --> 0:20:53.356 M What was it like to prepare for Paul's death? 0:20:56.956 --> 0:21:05.036 I should like think about it. Actually, at that time, 0:21:05.196 --> 0:21:08.596 he was like furiously writing when breath becomes their, like 0:21:08.636 --> 0:21:12.796 he had his editor and his literary agent and so 0:21:13.076 --> 0:21:18.436 like his body was like declining and collapsing, and then 0:21:18.556 --> 0:21:24.156 his like mind and focus on writing was like accelerating 0:21:25.316 --> 0:21:27.356 basically up until like the last three days. 0:21:27.676 --> 0:21:27.956 Wow. 0:21:28.236 --> 0:21:33.516 And so it felt like it was really weird contrast, 0:21:34.236 --> 0:21:36.596 and then there was like a ton of logistics around it. 0:21:36.636 --> 0:21:39.196 And then it was just painful, I mean physically but 0:21:39.276 --> 0:21:42.556 also just like really sad. Yeah, I talked to my mom. 0:21:42.596 --> 0:21:44.236 I was like, I think I kind of have to 0:21:44.236 --> 0:21:47.116 be planning his funeral and I'm like watching him sleep 0:21:47.756 --> 0:21:51.316 at the same It's just like a lot, but it 0:21:51.396 --> 0:21:56.476 was like a beautiful time too. We're together, Katie's there, 0:21:56.996 --> 0:22:00.436 the family was definitely like around all the time. It 0:22:00.556 --> 0:22:04.276 just felt really like saturated, like we do so much 0:22:04.396 --> 0:22:06.236 wishing away time. I mean I do this all the 0:22:06.276 --> 0:22:10.476 time now, But when Paul was dying, it's like I 0:22:10.516 --> 0:22:12.116 had no idea what it was going to be like 0:22:12.196 --> 0:22:16.076 after and I knew time was short, and so did he. 0:22:16.396 --> 0:22:20.196 And so you're not wishing away time. You're not like, ugh, 0:22:20.316 --> 0:22:22.636 can't wait till this baby sleeps through the night or whatever, 0:22:22.916 --> 0:22:25.436 you know, like, oh, what's her future doing to graduate 0:22:25.436 --> 0:22:27.796