1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,436 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,396 --> 00:00:33,596 Speaker 2: He got to the airport, He's like on the tarmac literally, 3 00:00:33,876 --> 00:00:36,796 Speaker 2: and got a message from his doctor that was like, 4 00:00:37,676 --> 00:00:40,156 Speaker 2: I can see nodules on your chest X ray, which 5 00:00:40,196 --> 00:00:44,196 Speaker 2: means I can see tumors in your lungs and obviously 6 00:00:44,236 --> 00:00:47,996 Speaker 2: that's really bad. And he turned off his phone. He 7 00:00:48,076 --> 00:00:50,396 Speaker 2: flew back and then I picked him up from the 8 00:00:50,436 --> 00:00:53,916 Speaker 2: airport and then he told me the message he had 9 00:00:53,956 --> 00:00:57,676 Speaker 2: gotten and then I said, I will never leave you, 10 00:00:58,156 --> 00:00:59,316 Speaker 2: and that was that. 11 00:01:00,436 --> 00:01:03,996 Speaker 1: Lucy Kalanathy remembers the moment her husband Paul told her 12 00:01:04,076 --> 00:01:07,956 Speaker 1: he had terminal cancer. In that moment, Lucy says, she 13 00:01:08,036 --> 00:01:11,916 Speaker 1: felt her future slip away, so she became hyper focused 14 00:01:11,996 --> 00:01:15,436 Speaker 1: on the present. She decided that she would dedicate herself 15 00:01:15,476 --> 00:01:18,036 Speaker 1: to helping Paul prepare for his death and make the 16 00:01:18,116 --> 00:01:19,556 Speaker 1: most of his remaining time. 17 00:01:20,516 --> 00:01:24,116 Speaker 2: There is so much that people go through when someone's dying, 18 00:01:24,196 --> 00:01:26,396 Speaker 2: Like in terms of decision making, is this what they 19 00:01:26,396 --> 00:01:29,756 Speaker 2: would have wanted? What if? And like guilt did we 20 00:01:29,876 --> 00:01:32,116 Speaker 2: do it right? Is this really it? 21 00:01:35,156 --> 00:01:38,716 Speaker 1: On today's show, when an unexpected death erases the life 22 00:01:38,756 --> 00:01:43,396 Speaker 1: you'd imagined, how do you build a new one. I'm 23 00:01:43,436 --> 00:01:46,156 Speaker 1: maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 24 00:01:46,356 --> 00:01:48,636 Speaker 1: A show about who we are and who we become 25 00:01:48,956 --> 00:02:02,476 Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. I first came 26 00:02:02,516 --> 00:02:05,556 Speaker 1: across doctor Lucy Klanethie when I read the book When 27 00:02:05,596 --> 00:02:09,756 Speaker 1: Breath Becomes Heir. It's a memoir written by lucy husband 28 00:02:09,916 --> 00:02:14,156 Speaker 1: Paul Kalanathi, who is also a medical doctor. He writes 29 00:02:14,196 --> 00:02:17,676 Speaker 1: about his experience navigating a terminal cancer diagnosis in his 30 00:02:17,756 --> 00:02:21,636 Speaker 1: thirties and his efforts to find peace with his impending death. 31 00:02:22,636 --> 00:02:24,956 Speaker 1: Lucy wrote the epilogue for the book and helped to 32 00:02:24,996 --> 00:02:29,196 Speaker 1: publish it posthumously. It was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize. 33 00:02:30,636 --> 00:02:34,996 Speaker 1: Lucy lost Paul more than eight years ago. Their daughter, Katie, 34 00:02:35,076 --> 00:02:38,116 Speaker 1: was just a baby at the time. I wanted to 35 00:02:38,156 --> 00:02:41,036 Speaker 1: hear how Lucy reflects on her life with Paul after 36 00:02:41,116 --> 00:02:44,756 Speaker 1: all these years. What's changed since then and what hasn't 37 00:02:45,596 --> 00:02:47,236 Speaker 1: we began with how they first met. 38 00:02:48,316 --> 00:02:50,116 Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you, like the real story. It was 39 00:02:50,236 --> 00:02:52,596 Speaker 2: kind of a scandal. We were in the same class 40 00:02:52,596 --> 00:02:54,916 Speaker 2: in medical school and we only had one hundred people 41 00:02:54,916 --> 00:02:56,596 Speaker 2: in our class, so it actually ends up feeling more 42 00:02:56,596 --> 00:02:59,676 Speaker 2: like high school, you know, and everyone is like sitting 43 00:02:59,676 --> 00:03:02,036 Speaker 2: on each other's laps basically all day every day, and 44 00:03:02,076 --> 00:03:04,876 Speaker 2: it's really kind of intimate because you're doing anatomy lab 45 00:03:04,956 --> 00:03:07,396 Speaker 2: and you're all like learning and a little freaked out. 46 00:03:07,396 --> 00:03:11,596 Speaker 2: So anyway, we I at each other there and at 47 00:03:11,636 --> 00:03:14,956 Speaker 2: first I was like, Oh, there's the smartest kid in 48 00:03:14,996 --> 00:03:18,236 Speaker 2: our class, Like he was running this bioethics seminar on 49 00:03:18,276 --> 00:03:20,596 Speaker 2: the side and it was just really smart. And then 50 00:03:21,276 --> 00:03:23,396 Speaker 2: one day I sat with him at lunch and he 51 00:03:23,556 --> 00:03:26,196 Speaker 2: was super funny and it kind of came out of 52 00:03:26,276 --> 00:03:27,716 Speaker 2: left field for me. I was like, oh my god. 53 00:03:28,156 --> 00:03:31,996 Speaker 2: And then I sort of became interested in him after that. 54 00:03:32,316 --> 00:03:35,796 Speaker 2: And meanwhile, he had a girlfriend and so that was 55 00:03:35,836 --> 00:03:38,076 Speaker 2: like a little thing to work out. I was like, 56 00:03:38,116 --> 00:03:40,396 Speaker 2: you need to find me after you know what's going 57 00:03:40,436 --> 00:03:44,156 Speaker 2: on with that. And then I actually won a date 58 00:03:44,236 --> 00:03:47,396 Speaker 2: with him in an auction, no way. We had a 59 00:03:47,396 --> 00:03:53,076 Speaker 2: fundraiser and his date was actually a shooting range nearby Yale, 60 00:03:53,356 --> 00:03:56,476 Speaker 2: and mostly guys put their names in the box and 61 00:03:56,516 --> 00:03:57,956 Speaker 2: I was like, I'm just going to put one and 62 00:03:59,276 --> 00:04:01,156 Speaker 2: I didn't even want to go to a shooting range. 63 00:04:01,196 --> 00:04:03,636 Speaker 2: And then he went on a trip to Barcelona with 64 00:04:03,676 --> 00:04:07,036 Speaker 2: his girlfriend and was in like an internet cafe in 65 00:04:07,076 --> 00:04:09,476 Speaker 2: two thousand and three and got this email is like, 66 00:04:09,916 --> 00:04:13,516 Speaker 2: Lucy has won your shooting range date. And then he's like, okay, 67 00:04:13,516 --> 00:04:17,756 Speaker 2: I guess this is done. And then I saved the 68 00:04:17,796 --> 00:04:20,116 Speaker 2: thing forever. It was like one of those creepy like 69 00:04:20,196 --> 00:04:22,996 Speaker 2: shooting range outlines and then shows like where you shot 70 00:04:23,076 --> 00:04:25,916 Speaker 2: the persons. I hated it, but I saved it for 71 00:04:25,916 --> 00:04:27,516 Speaker 2: a really long time and hung it on the wall. 72 00:04:27,996 --> 00:04:28,396 Speaker 2: I love that. 73 00:04:28,436 --> 00:04:30,476 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm thinking back to when you know, I 74 00:04:30,516 --> 00:04:34,196 Speaker 1: was trying to woo my husband, Jimmy, and I was 75 00:04:34,236 --> 00:04:37,036 Speaker 1: willing to pretend that I liked philosophy more than I 76 00:04:37,076 --> 00:04:40,876 Speaker 1: actually did. But you really you run laps around me 77 00:04:40,956 --> 00:04:43,076 Speaker 1: in terms of your willingness to like show your interest 78 00:04:43,156 --> 00:04:45,996 Speaker 1: in someone, because shooting range would have been out of 79 00:04:46,716 --> 00:04:48,356 Speaker 1: it would have just been out of the question. Are 80 00:04:48,436 --> 00:04:51,356 Speaker 1: we doing. Yeah, it's like philosophy paper, Okay, fine, I'll 81 00:04:51,356 --> 00:04:53,276 Speaker 1: get into it. Shooting range never. 82 00:04:53,556 --> 00:04:56,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, I like hated holding the gun and stuff. I 83 00:04:56,036 --> 00:04:57,196 Speaker 2: was like, I hate everything. 84 00:04:58,276 --> 00:05:01,236 Speaker 1: So I think the fact that you that reveals a 85 00:05:01,276 --> 00:05:04,356 Speaker 1: lot to me about about your interests. True, yeah, your 86 00:05:04,356 --> 00:05:05,316 Speaker 1: interest in Paul. 87 00:05:06,396 --> 00:05:08,476 Speaker 2: Like yeah, you know how it's just like you have 88 00:05:08,556 --> 00:05:10,556 Speaker 2: a little and you're trying to feel it out, Like 89 00:05:10,596 --> 00:05:13,836 Speaker 2: you're sort of like walking around each other like animals. 90 00:05:14,236 --> 00:05:16,916 Speaker 2: I feel like in a circle, like what's going on 91 00:05:16,996 --> 00:05:19,876 Speaker 2: with you? What's coming on with you? So we were 92 00:05:19,876 --> 00:05:23,076 Speaker 2: in like that phase. We were kind of friends, but 93 00:05:23,116 --> 00:05:25,716 Speaker 2: we sort of were like falling in love secretly, unbeknownst 94 00:05:25,716 --> 00:05:29,636 Speaker 2: to each other. So Paul's Indian and I'm white, and 95 00:05:29,676 --> 00:05:31,796 Speaker 2: we were walking on the street in New Haven and 96 00:05:31,836 --> 00:05:34,436 Speaker 2: this person who was sitting on the street yelled out, 97 00:05:35,076 --> 00:05:38,956 Speaker 2: love is colorblind. And I was like, oh my god, 98 00:05:38,996 --> 00:05:42,556 Speaker 2: we're not even dating, but like this stranger I can see, 99 00:05:42,836 --> 00:05:45,036 Speaker 2: and I just remember being like, it's a thing. And 100 00:05:45,116 --> 00:05:48,316 Speaker 2: I was like, that's my dude. And then that was it. Wow. 101 00:05:48,396 --> 00:05:49,356 Speaker 2: Then we're together forever. 102 00:05:49,796 --> 00:05:53,716 Speaker 1: So you and Paul ultimately get married, and about five 103 00:05:53,796 --> 00:05:56,756 Speaker 1: or so years later things start to become a bit 104 00:05:56,836 --> 00:05:59,396 Speaker 1: rocky in your marriage. Can you tell me a bit 105 00:05:59,436 --> 00:06:00,756 Speaker 1: more about that period of time. 106 00:06:01,636 --> 00:06:05,516 Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure. We fell in love at the beginning of 107 00:06:05,556 --> 00:06:07,876 Speaker 2: medical school and sort of grew up as doctors together 108 00:06:07,956 --> 00:06:11,676 Speaker 2: and then moved to and entered our residencies. And residency 109 00:06:11,796 --> 00:06:15,276 Speaker 2: is just such a grind. There's a work hour limit 110 00:06:15,356 --> 00:06:17,676 Speaker 2: on how many hours you can work every week and 111 00:06:17,716 --> 00:06:21,676 Speaker 2: the limit is eighty and then people stop recording their 112 00:06:21,716 --> 00:06:24,436 Speaker 2: hours because they're gonna get in trouble for staying longer. 113 00:06:24,516 --> 00:06:27,356 Speaker 2: And so you're super tired. You're like ships in the 114 00:06:27,476 --> 00:06:31,596 Speaker 2: night on your schedules, working overnight all the time, sleeping 115 00:06:31,636 --> 00:06:35,076 Speaker 2: in the day, going back, and so I think some 116 00:06:35,156 --> 00:06:38,716 Speaker 2: of it was just we were like so tired not 117 00:06:38,756 --> 00:06:41,996 Speaker 2: seeing each other that much. I was still learning, we 118 00:06:41,996 --> 00:06:45,676 Speaker 2: were both still learning, Like I'm highly extroverted. Paul was introverted. 119 00:06:45,876 --> 00:06:48,756 Speaker 2: He was really gregarious, but also introverted in terms of 120 00:06:48,756 --> 00:06:51,996 Speaker 2: how we processed his feelings, and he needed some time 121 00:06:52,036 --> 00:06:54,396 Speaker 2: to process. I would be like, I just told you 122 00:06:54,436 --> 00:06:56,516 Speaker 2: everything about how I feel, like say something back. He 123 00:06:56,596 --> 00:06:59,756 Speaker 2: would be like, and like, I felt like he was 124 00:06:59,796 --> 00:07:03,676 Speaker 2: stonewalling me, but he wasn't. He was like processing and 125 00:07:03,716 --> 00:07:06,076 Speaker 2: it honestly, we'd been married for like a few years. 126 00:07:06,116 --> 00:07:10,076 Speaker 2: It took me a while to see that, and so 127 00:07:10,116 --> 00:07:13,116 Speaker 2: we just sort of started like budding heads or feeling 128 00:07:13,556 --> 00:07:17,036 Speaker 2: not seen during that time and not quite giving each 129 00:07:17,076 --> 00:07:20,316 Speaker 2: other the benefit of the doubt, but like loving each 130 00:07:20,316 --> 00:07:22,836 Speaker 2: other so much during the whole time. It was very confusing. 131 00:07:23,596 --> 00:07:27,076 Speaker 2: And then we were entering academic practice and I'm an 132 00:07:27,076 --> 00:07:31,276 Speaker 2: internest and he was a neurosurgeon, and neurosurgery culture is 133 00:07:31,356 --> 00:07:34,316 Speaker 2: also just so intense and it stays like that forever. 134 00:07:34,836 --> 00:07:36,916 Speaker 2: And I was just like, is this going to get better? 135 00:07:37,076 --> 00:07:39,436 Speaker 2: And his mode was like, I just have to get 136 00:07:39,436 --> 00:07:42,476 Speaker 2: my academic job. I can only think about getting my job. 137 00:07:43,076 --> 00:07:46,036 Speaker 2: And then he started to lose weight during that time 138 00:07:46,236 --> 00:07:48,316 Speaker 2: and started to feel sick during that time, and I 139 00:07:48,356 --> 00:07:51,556 Speaker 2: was like, something's going sideways, but we weren't able to 140 00:07:51,596 --> 00:07:55,476 Speaker 2: talk about it, and that was just really a rocky time. 141 00:07:56,396 --> 00:07:59,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, And what did you both describe those symptoms too 142 00:07:59,356 --> 00:08:01,476 Speaker 1: at the time? Did you think it was just stress 143 00:08:01,556 --> 00:08:04,116 Speaker 1: and burnout? I mean there's a lot of confounding variables there, 144 00:08:04,156 --> 00:08:05,116 Speaker 1: I imagine totally. 145 00:08:05,516 --> 00:08:09,356 Speaker 2: Totally. Yeah, So we didn't quite notice initially, but he 146 00:08:09,356 --> 00:08:11,956 Speaker 2: started having back pain, He's getting tired, and then he 147 00:08:11,996 --> 00:08:16,476 Speaker 2: started to get some scarier symptoms like night sweats. Night 148 00:08:16,516 --> 00:08:20,796 Speaker 2: sweats are kind of spooky medically, it often means something 149 00:08:20,836 --> 00:08:24,316 Speaker 2: more serious is happening, like cancer, tuberculosis something. We kind 150 00:08:24,316 --> 00:08:27,356 Speaker 2: of both knew that. And then he started to have 151 00:08:27,396 --> 00:08:33,396 Speaker 2: a cough and then during that time, we were going 152 00:08:33,436 --> 00:08:35,876 Speaker 2: to go on a trip together to visit his college friends. 153 00:08:35,916 --> 00:08:37,556 Speaker 2: A whole group of people were going to convene in 154 00:08:37,556 --> 00:08:40,756 Speaker 2: New York, and we were kind of in the middle 155 00:08:40,796 --> 00:08:44,516 Speaker 2: of what's going on with our marriage, and we're both hurtying, 156 00:08:45,156 --> 00:08:47,516 Speaker 2: and I said, I don't want to go on the trip. 157 00:08:47,596 --> 00:08:49,916 Speaker 2: I'm going to stay home and think about things and 158 00:08:49,956 --> 00:08:53,356 Speaker 2: take a breath. And then he went on the trip alone, 159 00:08:53,796 --> 00:08:56,756 Speaker 2: and actually during the trip was when he started to 160 00:08:56,796 --> 00:09:01,196 Speaker 2: get his formal diagnosis. He describes how he was like 161 00:09:01,236 --> 00:09:04,076 Speaker 2: in a train station going to meet the friends and 162 00:09:04,116 --> 00:09:08,356 Speaker 2: then was having this horrendous back pain. His back was spasming, 163 00:09:08,436 --> 00:09:10,876 Speaker 2: and he lay down on a bench and then the 164 00:09:10,916 --> 00:09:12,956 Speaker 2: security guard came over and was like, excuse me, sir, 165 00:09:13,076 --> 00:09:15,036 Speaker 2: you can't be lying down on the bench right now. Sorry, 166 00:09:15,036 --> 00:09:18,076 Speaker 2: you have to stand up. And he like almost said 167 00:09:19,116 --> 00:09:22,676 Speaker 2: I can't. I'm dying of cancer. And he didn't even 168 00:09:22,756 --> 00:09:24,956 Speaker 2: know that he had cancer, but it sort of came 169 00:09:24,996 --> 00:09:27,876 Speaker 2: into his mind or like I can't I have cancer, 170 00:09:28,156 --> 00:09:30,756 Speaker 2: Like something flashed into his mind and he's like, oh 171 00:09:30,836 --> 00:09:33,156 Speaker 2: my gosh. And then he told a friend. He's like, 172 00:09:33,196 --> 00:09:35,716 Speaker 2: I think I might have cancer, not the good kind. 173 00:09:36,716 --> 00:09:39,556 Speaker 2: And his friend was like, well, let me bring you 174 00:09:39,596 --> 00:09:42,236 Speaker 2: to the airport. I'll mail your bag back for you 175 00:09:42,676 --> 00:09:46,076 Speaker 2: so you don't have to carry it. So then he 176 00:09:46,196 --> 00:09:49,596 Speaker 2: got to the airport. He's on the tarmac, I think literally, 177 00:09:49,836 --> 00:09:52,796 Speaker 2: and got a message from his doctor that was like, 178 00:09:53,716 --> 00:09:56,156 Speaker 2: I can see nodules on your X ray, which means 179 00:09:56,236 --> 00:10:00,116 Speaker 2: I can see tumors in your lungs, and obviously that's 180 00:10:00,196 --> 00:10:04,396 Speaker 2: really bad. And he turned off his phone. He flew back, 181 00:10:04,516 --> 00:10:06,916 Speaker 2: it's like on his five hour flight. And then I 182 00:10:06,996 --> 00:10:08,916 Speaker 2: picked him up from the airport and then we drove 183 00:10:08,956 --> 00:10:10,676 Speaker 2: home and we were sitting on the sofa, and then 184 00:10:10,716 --> 00:10:14,796 Speaker 2: he told me the message he had gotten. And then 185 00:10:14,836 --> 00:10:18,676 Speaker 2: I said, I will never leave you. And that was that. 186 00:10:19,756 --> 00:10:23,716 Speaker 1: I want to dig into your very immediate automatic response 187 00:10:23,756 --> 00:10:26,436 Speaker 1: to Paul, like where did the clarity come from? 188 00:10:27,116 --> 00:10:30,476 Speaker 2: You can be so mad at someone and hurt and 189 00:10:31,516 --> 00:10:34,516 Speaker 2: love them so much, and it's like you can do 190 00:10:34,636 --> 00:10:36,596 Speaker 2: all those things at the same time in a marriage. 191 00:10:36,636 --> 00:10:39,796 Speaker 2: You know. I always had this idea of like, oh, 192 00:10:40,196 --> 00:10:43,236 Speaker 2: this is the thing we're going to do together. Like 193 00:10:43,756 --> 00:10:47,476 Speaker 2: we love each other somehow, We've grown together. We know 194 00:10:47,556 --> 00:10:50,476 Speaker 2: each other so well. We have this like language built 195 00:10:50,476 --> 00:10:53,196 Speaker 2: around suffering because we talk about our patients all the time. 196 00:10:53,276 --> 00:10:56,796 Speaker 2: We talk about life, and then it was like, oh 197 00:10:56,836 --> 00:11:01,716 Speaker 2: my gosh, it's happening to us and turns out this 198 00:11:01,756 --> 00:11:04,756 Speaker 2: is how it turns out. And then this other weird 199 00:11:04,756 --> 00:11:07,756 Speaker 2: thing happened where we sort of suddenly gave each other 200 00:11:07,836 --> 00:11:11,716 Speaker 2: this spaciousness because because things were so extreme, Like I 201 00:11:11,796 --> 00:11:14,076 Speaker 2: remember saying, I was like, how can I help you? 202 00:11:14,876 --> 00:11:19,236 Speaker 2: Do you want to travel around the world with your brothers? 203 00:11:19,396 --> 00:11:22,156 Speaker 2: I was just like, literally like what do you secretly 204 00:11:22,196 --> 00:11:25,316 Speaker 2: wish for? Because I like want to help you get it. 205 00:11:25,316 --> 00:11:28,196 Speaker 2: It was so interesting, and then he was like, I 206 00:11:28,276 --> 00:11:29,396 Speaker 2: only want to be with you. 207 00:11:31,676 --> 00:11:33,676 Speaker 1: So you tell him you're never going to leave him. 208 00:11:34,556 --> 00:11:36,556 Speaker 1: What happens next? What are the next few days like 209 00:11:36,596 --> 00:11:38,956 Speaker 1: in terms of getting that formal diagnosis. 210 00:11:39,676 --> 00:11:41,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, he got admitted to the hospital the next day 211 00:11:41,996 --> 00:11:44,116 Speaker 2: for what's called expedited workup, which is like you go 212 00:11:44,196 --> 00:11:45,476 Speaker 2: in and you get your cat skins and all the 213 00:11:45,476 --> 00:11:49,436 Speaker 2: stuff done quickly in biopsy, and we went to the 214 00:11:49,476 --> 00:11:53,316 Speaker 2: hospital and then we got admitted to the hospital room. 215 00:11:54,156 --> 00:11:56,516 Speaker 2: We had like hospital credentials, right, so we could log 216 00:11:56,596 --> 00:11:59,356 Speaker 2: into the computer and like look at the records, and 217 00:12:00,036 --> 00:12:03,756 Speaker 2: he opened up the actual radiology images of the cat 218 00:12:03,796 --> 00:12:06,356 Speaker 2: skin and you're like scrolling up and down through the films. 219 00:12:06,356 --> 00:12:08,116 Speaker 2: You can see the spine, you can see the lungs, 220 00:12:08,796 --> 00:12:12,796 Speaker 2: and he talks about this sat skin was different because 221 00:12:12,836 --> 00:12:14,676 Speaker 2: it was my own, Like I had done this so 222 00:12:14,796 --> 00:12:18,956 Speaker 2: many times for patients, and he would have looked at 223 00:12:18,956 --> 00:12:20,956 Speaker 2: this one and like dispatched with it and like I 224 00:12:20,996 --> 00:12:23,596 Speaker 2: hate do surgery in this case. And instead he's looking 225 00:12:23,596 --> 00:12:26,796 Speaker 2: at his own terrible scan. And it's like, you know, 226 00:12:26,956 --> 00:12:29,756 Speaker 2: part of being a doctor is like figuring out how 227 00:12:29,796 --> 00:12:32,236 Speaker 2: to be a mediator, right, like how to take these 228 00:12:32,276 --> 00:12:36,396 Speaker 2: images and then relay them to somebody to help give 229 00:12:36,436 --> 00:12:38,756 Speaker 2: them context stuff like what this means and what it 230 00:12:38,796 --> 00:12:40,676 Speaker 2: means to them as a person and in their life. 231 00:12:40,756 --> 00:12:44,276 Speaker 2: And there wasn't any of that. There was just like bang, 232 00:12:44,716 --> 00:12:44,916 Speaker 2: you know. 233 00:12:45,236 --> 00:12:45,316 Speaker 1: Ye. 234 00:12:45,756 --> 00:12:48,396 Speaker 2: Also, as soon as he was diagnosed, he was like 235 00:12:49,036 --> 00:12:50,636 Speaker 2: this was so crazy. It was the same day he 236 00:12:50,716 --> 00:12:53,916 Speaker 2: was like, I want you to get remarried. 237 00:12:53,436 --> 00:12:55,716 Speaker 1: The same day as the diagnosis. 238 00:12:55,516 --> 00:12:59,076 Speaker 2: Literally the same day. Yeah. It was so interesting because 239 00:12:59,116 --> 00:13:01,836 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, he's saying so much. By saying that, 240 00:13:01,916 --> 00:13:05,196 Speaker 2: he's saying I see what's happening, You see what's happening. 241 00:13:05,516 --> 00:13:09,276 Speaker 2: I care about you and love you into a future 242 00:13:09,436 --> 00:13:13,036 Speaker 2: where I won't even be there, and I'm going to 243 00:13:13,076 --> 00:13:17,116 Speaker 2: say the whole thing out loud. It's scary stuff to 244 00:13:17,116 --> 00:13:19,516 Speaker 2: talk about, and I think a lot of times people 245 00:13:19,516 --> 00:13:22,436 Speaker 2: are really scared to admit to each other what's happening, 246 00:13:22,516 --> 00:13:25,756 Speaker 2: or like try to hide it. And so somehow, amidst 247 00:13:25,836 --> 00:13:29,956 Speaker 2: the spaciousness, it also was kind of stark between us 248 00:13:29,996 --> 00:13:34,196 Speaker 2: in a way that was really kind of raw and honest, 249 00:13:34,596 --> 00:13:37,956 Speaker 2: and then we sort of like filled that in with 250 00:13:37,996 --> 00:13:41,796 Speaker 2: scaffolding once we were able to like come back down 251 00:13:41,796 --> 00:13:44,556 Speaker 2: to earth, because it takes away and it takes like 252 00:13:44,716 --> 00:13:47,756 Speaker 2: months to even feel like you're in your body or 253 00:13:47,796 --> 00:13:50,156 Speaker 2: like you have any sense of how you might piece 254 00:13:50,236 --> 00:13:51,556 Speaker 2: together a different future. 255 00:13:52,476 --> 00:13:54,316 Speaker 1: I am curious to hear more when you talk about 256 00:13:54,356 --> 00:13:57,436 Speaker 1: opening up that space for one another, what did that 257 00:13:57,476 --> 00:13:59,356 Speaker 1: look like for me? 258 00:13:59,596 --> 00:14:03,716 Speaker 2: I think I backed off of expectation. I was just like, 259 00:14:04,036 --> 00:14:06,396 Speaker 2: this is so huge. You know, he's like facing this 260 00:14:06,476 --> 00:14:10,836 Speaker 2: complete upheaval and identity. He's understanding that he's dying sooner 261 00:14:10,876 --> 00:14:15,116 Speaker 2: than expected. And I wasn't in his face like tell 262 00:14:15,116 --> 00:14:16,916 Speaker 2: me how this is going, how's it going, how's it going? 263 00:14:16,956 --> 00:14:18,876 Speaker 2: Like what are you thinking? You know? I was just 264 00:14:18,916 --> 00:14:22,796 Speaker 2: like I am going to give him space and he'll 265 00:14:22,836 --> 00:14:26,556 Speaker 2: talk to me sometime. And he started whispering to me 266 00:14:26,756 --> 00:14:29,036 Speaker 2: in the middle of the night. He'd be like, I 267 00:14:29,076 --> 00:14:29,956 Speaker 2: don't want to die. 268 00:14:31,076 --> 00:14:31,436 Speaker 1: Wow. 269 00:14:31,716 --> 00:14:35,516 Speaker 2: And then we would just be together under the blanket. 270 00:14:35,796 --> 00:14:41,516 Speaker 2: And so I think I just instinctively gave him space, 271 00:14:41,556 --> 00:14:47,956 Speaker 2: and then he sort of came to me, We'll. 272 00:14:47,836 --> 00:15:00,636 Speaker 1: Be right back with a slight change of plans. Lucy 273 00:15:00,716 --> 00:15:04,796 Speaker 1: Kalanathy and her husband Paul, met in medical school. They'd 274 00:15:04,836 --> 00:15:07,636 Speaker 1: been married for seven years when Paul found out he 275 00:15:07,716 --> 00:15:11,916 Speaker 1: had terminal cancer. Their daughter Katie hadn't been born yet. 276 00:15:12,116 --> 00:15:14,996 Speaker 1: They were just two young doctors focused on their careers. 277 00:15:16,036 --> 00:15:18,476 Speaker 1: I was curious to know whether their jobs as medical 278 00:15:18,516 --> 00:15:24,276 Speaker 1: professionals affected how they processed Paul's diagnosis. As doctors, I mean, 279 00:15:24,316 --> 00:15:28,676 Speaker 1: illness is front and center. You know, you engage with suffering, dying, 280 00:15:28,716 --> 00:15:31,956 Speaker 1: and death constantly, even though you can never imagine what 281 00:15:31,956 --> 00:15:33,756 Speaker 1: it's going to feel like when it happens to you. 282 00:15:34,356 --> 00:15:39,236 Speaker 1: Do you feel like that exposure maybe helped foster faster 283 00:15:39,356 --> 00:15:41,796 Speaker 1: acceptance in both of you, or made you feel more 284 00:15:41,796 --> 00:15:44,276 Speaker 1: prepared for this moment or what was to come. 285 00:15:44,996 --> 00:15:47,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think absolutely, and I think some of it 286 00:15:47,996 --> 00:15:52,356 Speaker 2: was special to Paul just as a person, because he 287 00:15:52,516 --> 00:15:54,476 Speaker 2: had actually never thought he would be a doctor. He 288 00:15:54,956 --> 00:15:59,196 Speaker 2: studied English literature and then did a master's in bioethics 289 00:15:59,236 --> 00:16:02,396 Speaker 2: and thought about being a literature philosophy professor, and was 290 00:16:02,636 --> 00:16:06,436 Speaker 2: very interested in thinking about mortality and meaning. And then 291 00:16:06,476 --> 00:16:09,596 Speaker 2: I think he wrote this interesting thing in his book 292 00:16:09,596 --> 00:16:12,276 Speaker 2: where he says something like people ask themselves a lot 293 00:16:12,316 --> 00:16:15,636 Speaker 2: why me, And he's like, I think a more helpful question, 294 00:16:15,796 --> 00:16:17,916 Speaker 2: or maybe a more apt question, is why not me? 295 00:16:18,836 --> 00:16:22,036 Speaker 2: And I think there's nothing that would exempt any of 296 00:16:22,116 --> 00:16:25,876 Speaker 2: us from suffering of some kind and being doctors and 297 00:16:25,956 --> 00:16:29,556 Speaker 2: just seeing so many seemingly unfair things happen to people 298 00:16:29,636 --> 00:16:35,036 Speaker 2: all the time, Like as a neurosurgeon, it's literally like tumor, trauma, aneurism, 299 00:16:35,356 --> 00:16:38,716 Speaker 2: all kinds of various neurologic disorders that totally screw with 300 00:16:38,756 --> 00:16:42,116 Speaker 2: your identity and your sense of meaning. And so we 301 00:16:42,316 --> 00:16:45,716 Speaker 2: had thought about it before, which I think helped somewhat. 302 00:16:46,756 --> 00:16:48,636 Speaker 2: And then it was like, oh, my God, turns out 303 00:16:48,636 --> 00:16:52,436 Speaker 2: this is our life too, which is not easy, right. 304 00:16:52,916 --> 00:16:54,196 Speaker 2: It's sort of like you zoom in and out. It's 305 00:16:54,196 --> 00:16:56,276 Speaker 2: not like he was like one and done acceptance. There 306 00:16:56,316 --> 00:16:59,036 Speaker 2: was like luck on the first day in terms of acceptance, 307 00:16:59,076 --> 00:17:01,596 Speaker 2: and then you just have to keep wrestling and pinning 308 00:17:01,676 --> 00:17:03,836 Speaker 2: it down or letting it go and pinning it down right, 309 00:17:03,916 --> 00:17:06,556 Speaker 2: meditating and getting it down. I'll just say an interesting 310 00:17:06,596 --> 00:17:09,716 Speaker 2: thing about Paul, because it was so him. We were 311 00:17:09,756 --> 00:17:11,716 Speaker 2: packing to go to the hospital, and I was like, 312 00:17:11,836 --> 00:17:15,676 Speaker 2: insurance card, fuzzy socks, phone charger, We're going to like 313 00:17:15,796 --> 00:17:19,916 Speaker 2: walk into this situation where he's going to find out 314 00:17:19,916 --> 00:17:24,796 Speaker 2: he has terminal cancer. And then he packed books and 315 00:17:24,836 --> 00:17:29,156 Speaker 2: he took like he took Being in Time by Heideger, 316 00:17:29,396 --> 00:17:31,396 Speaker 2: this book called Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis, and 317 00:17:31,396 --> 00:17:35,476 Speaker 2: then a novel by the Russian author Sulsanitzen called Cancer Ward. Gosh, 318 00:17:35,516 --> 00:17:38,596 Speaker 2: it's like this little like religion, philosophy and literature. And 319 00:17:38,676 --> 00:17:42,556 Speaker 2: I was like, that is so interesting. Like he didn't 320 00:17:42,636 --> 00:17:46,236 Speaker 2: take like medical textbooks. He's like, what I'm going to need, 321 00:17:46,276 --> 00:17:47,076 Speaker 2: here's books. 322 00:17:47,836 --> 00:17:50,596 Speaker 1: It says to me that he didn't see his sole 323 00:17:50,716 --> 00:17:53,196 Speaker 1: job as simply fighting cancer. 324 00:17:53,356 --> 00:17:53,996 Speaker 2: In that moment. 325 00:17:54,236 --> 00:17:58,316 Speaker 1: It feels like he was continuing the project of finding 326 00:17:58,756 --> 00:18:01,436 Speaker 1: meaning making in his life despite all the stuff that 327 00:18:01,516 --> 00:18:02,556 Speaker 1: was going on around him. 328 00:18:02,956 --> 00:18:06,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of things you could fight for right, 329 00:18:06,436 --> 00:18:10,596 Speaker 2: You could fight for being able to do something you 330 00:18:10,676 --> 00:18:14,276 Speaker 2: really love, or like fight to stay home or fight 331 00:18:14,396 --> 00:18:17,436 Speaker 2: to have your family be okay after you go. And 332 00:18:17,436 --> 00:18:20,836 Speaker 2: then I also think dying is a thing that people do. 333 00:18:21,276 --> 00:18:24,076 Speaker 2: It's really hard, it's hard to get your head around, 334 00:18:24,116 --> 00:18:29,196 Speaker 2: it's physically hard. And he thought a lot about how 335 00:18:29,236 --> 00:18:32,836 Speaker 2: do people think about dying? And I think for him, 336 00:18:33,956 --> 00:18:39,596 Speaker 2: encountering his mortality and going through that process pretty unflinchingly 337 00:18:40,556 --> 00:18:44,676 Speaker 2: was a thing he was trying to do in his life. 338 00:18:44,876 --> 00:18:50,356 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it feels like his desire to, like 339 00:18:50,396 --> 00:18:54,436 Speaker 1: you said, find peace with his mortality, his desire to 340 00:18:54,596 --> 00:18:58,476 Speaker 1: find meaningful things to occupy the remaining time that he 341 00:18:59,196 --> 00:19:05,236 Speaker 1: had on this planet, expressed itself in many very impressive ways. 342 00:19:05,356 --> 00:19:08,636 Speaker 1: I mean, he returned to his work as a neurosurgeon, 343 00:19:09,236 --> 00:19:11,676 Speaker 1: he wrote a memoir, and I think the biggest choice 344 00:19:11,676 --> 00:19:14,196 Speaker 1: of all was ultimately you both decided to even have 345 00:19:14,236 --> 00:19:16,316 Speaker 1: a child during this period of time. 346 00:19:17,116 --> 00:19:21,156 Speaker 2: So despite all that we've talked about with having these 347 00:19:21,236 --> 00:19:24,796 Speaker 2: challenges in our marriage, we had also been planning to 348 00:19:24,796 --> 00:19:26,716 Speaker 2: have a baby around the same time, like that was 349 00:19:26,756 --> 00:19:30,396 Speaker 2: swirling around, I mean, very soon after his diagnosis, we 350 00:19:30,436 --> 00:19:33,316 Speaker 2: thought about it because we had to go to a 351 00:19:33,356 --> 00:19:37,076 Speaker 2: sperm bank before he started treatment, and so we thought 352 00:19:37,116 --> 00:19:39,156 Speaker 2: about it in different ways. I think he was more 353 00:19:39,196 --> 00:19:41,316 Speaker 2: certain than I was at the beginning he really wanted 354 00:19:41,356 --> 00:19:43,756 Speaker 2: to have a child. I was worried that it was 355 00:19:43,916 --> 00:19:47,756 Speaker 2: just like the potential for more pain and uncertainty. I 356 00:19:47,796 --> 00:19:51,636 Speaker 2: was like, whoa, that's like a whole uncertain process. And 357 00:19:51,676 --> 00:19:55,076 Speaker 2: then the other thing I was scared of was I 358 00:19:55,196 --> 00:19:57,916 Speaker 2: was worried that it would just be really painful for Paul, 359 00:19:58,116 --> 00:20:01,196 Speaker 2: like as he got sicker, if and when he got sicker, 360 00:20:01,356 --> 00:20:03,396 Speaker 2: like to say goodbye to a child, It's just like 361 00:20:03,516 --> 00:20:07,716 Speaker 2: that's bananas, And how could you choose that? And so 362 00:20:07,836 --> 00:20:09,316 Speaker 2: I was like, don't you thinks it's going to make 363 00:20:09,396 --> 00:20:13,796 Speaker 2: this way harder for you? And he said, wouldn't it 364 00:20:13,836 --> 00:20:17,036 Speaker 2: be great if it did make it harder? And that 365 00:20:17,196 --> 00:20:20,876 Speaker 2: was like totally crystallizing for me. There's a million things 366 00:20:20,876 --> 00:20:23,156 Speaker 2: we do in our lives that do not make our 367 00:20:23,196 --> 00:20:27,756 Speaker 2: lives easier, you know, everything, Yeah, climbing a literal mountain 368 00:20:27,956 --> 00:20:29,236 Speaker 2: just to get to the top and go back down. 369 00:20:29,356 --> 00:20:34,516 Speaker 2: I mean like everything that's meaningful. And so nobody's having 370 00:20:34,516 --> 00:20:36,236 Speaker 2: a kid because they think it's going to be easy, 371 00:20:36,396 --> 00:20:39,396 Speaker 2: like that's not a thing. So and then our family 372 00:20:39,556 --> 00:20:41,476 Speaker 2: was really into the idea. My mom was worried about me, 373 00:20:41,556 --> 00:20:44,076 Speaker 2: but we just had family support to think about it. 374 00:20:44,476 --> 00:20:46,636 Speaker 2: And so then yeah, we had our daughter and she 375 00:20:46,796 --> 00:20:48,436 Speaker 2: was born eight months before Paul died. 376 00:20:49,236 --> 00:20:53,356 Speaker 1: M What was it like to prepare for Paul's death? 377 00:20:56,956 --> 00:21:05,036 Speaker 2: I should like think about it. Actually, at that time, 378 00:21:05,196 --> 00:21:08,596 Speaker 2: he was like furiously writing when breath becomes their, like 379 00:21:08,636 --> 00:21:12,796 Speaker 2: he had his editor and his literary agent and so 380 00:21:13,076 --> 00:21:18,436 Speaker 2: like his body was like declining and collapsing, and then 381 00:21:18,556 --> 00:21:24,156 Speaker 2: his like mind and focus on writing was like accelerating 382 00:21:25,316 --> 00:21:27,356 Speaker 2: basically up until like the last three days. 383 00:21:27,676 --> 00:21:27,956 Speaker 1: Wow. 384 00:21:28,236 --> 00:21:33,516 Speaker 2: And so it felt like it was really weird contrast, 385 00:21:34,236 --> 00:21:36,596 Speaker 2: and then there was like a ton of logistics around it. 386 00:21:36,636 --> 00:21:39,196 Speaker 2: And then it was just painful, I mean physically but 387 00:21:39,276 --> 00:21:42,556 Speaker 2: also just like really sad. Yeah, I talked to my mom. 388 00:21:42,596 --> 00:21:44,236 Speaker 2: I was like, I think I kind of have to 389 00:21:44,236 --> 00:21:47,116 Speaker 2: be planning his funeral and I'm like watching him sleep 390 00:21:47,756 --> 00:21:51,316 Speaker 2: at the same It's just like a lot, but it 391 00:21:51,396 --> 00:21:56,476 Speaker 2: was like a beautiful time too. We're together, Katie's there, 392 00:21:56,996 --> 00:22:00,436 Speaker 2: the family was definitely like around all the time. It 393 00:22:00,556 --> 00:22:04,276 Speaker 2: just felt really like saturated, like we do so much 394 00:22:04,396 --> 00:22:06,236 Speaker 2: wishing away time. I mean I do this all the 395 00:22:06,276 --> 00:22:10,476 Speaker 2: time now, But when Paul was dying, it's like I 396 00:22:10,516 --> 00:22:12,116 Speaker 2: had no idea what it was going to be like 397 00:22:12,196 --> 00:22:16,076 Speaker 2: after and I knew time was short, and so did he. 398 00:22:16,396 --> 00:22:20,196 Speaker 2: And so you're not wishing away time. You're not like, ugh, 399 00:22:20,316 --> 00:22:22,636 Speaker 2: can't wait till this baby sleeps through the night or whatever, 400 00:22:22,916 --> 00:22:25,436 Speaker 2: you know, like, oh, what's her future doing to graduate 401 00:22:25,436 --> 00:22:27,796 Speaker 2: from high school? There was none of that. It was 402 00:22:27,836 --> 00:22:30,796 Speaker 2: just like we're here with the tiny baby, and everyone 403 00:22:30,836 --> 00:22:35,076 Speaker 2: loves each other and that's what's happening. And so that's 404 00:22:35,076 --> 00:22:37,996 Speaker 2: sort of how like mindfulness is good for your brain 405 00:22:38,196 --> 00:22:41,036 Speaker 2: or good for you. It's like there is only now. 406 00:22:42,196 --> 00:22:47,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, can you bring me back to Paul's final day? 407 00:22:47,276 --> 00:22:49,756 Speaker 1: What was that final day like with Paul and Katie 408 00:22:49,756 --> 00:22:51,596 Speaker 1: and the rest of your family? 409 00:22:52,316 --> 00:22:53,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the final day had a lot of 410 00:22:53,876 --> 00:22:57,556 Speaker 2: medical stuff going on, which was so confusing to figure 411 00:22:57,556 --> 00:23:00,796 Speaker 2: out even as doctors, right, because you're always working with 412 00:23:00,916 --> 00:23:05,556 Speaker 2: limited information, especially in his situation, like is this really 413 00:23:05,596 --> 00:23:08,676 Speaker 2: the end? He was really sick, we were thinking about 414 00:23:08,796 --> 00:23:12,516 Speaker 2: entering hospice, and then he got really sick suddenly, and 415 00:23:12,596 --> 00:23:18,316 Speaker 2: like couldn't breathe, and then he sort of he had 416 00:23:18,356 --> 00:23:21,436 Speaker 2: to make this important decision. He was lucid enough to 417 00:23:21,476 --> 00:23:23,596 Speaker 2: make it. So a lot of the time when people 418 00:23:23,596 --> 00:23:26,236 Speaker 2: are this sick, they actually can't decide this for themselves, 419 00:23:26,756 --> 00:23:29,876 Speaker 2: but he happened to be able to and was awake enough, 420 00:23:30,436 --> 00:23:33,396 Speaker 2: so he didn't want to risk going on a ventilator 421 00:23:33,436 --> 00:23:36,236 Speaker 2: and being in a coma and having us have to 422 00:23:36,276 --> 00:23:39,036 Speaker 2: make a difficult decision about when to stop. He just 423 00:23:39,356 --> 00:23:41,796 Speaker 2: was like, we have seen that enough, and I think 424 00:23:41,836 --> 00:23:45,036 Speaker 2: he was like, that is not for me. He looked 425 00:23:45,036 --> 00:23:47,996 Speaker 2: at me and said I'm ready, which was like, oh, 426 00:23:48,036 --> 00:23:50,876 Speaker 2: it's going to make me like burst into tears. It's like, gosh. 427 00:23:51,156 --> 00:23:53,956 Speaker 2: He really was like I'm ready, I'm ready to stop. 428 00:23:54,796 --> 00:23:57,076 Speaker 2: He was like, I actually just want to go home. 429 00:23:57,356 --> 00:23:59,076 Speaker 2: Can I go home? That was part of it, like 430 00:23:59,116 --> 00:24:03,796 Speaker 2: can I go home? I know I'm dying, but could 431 00:24:03,796 --> 00:24:07,276 Speaker 2: we get home? And he was just like, way too 432 00:24:07,356 --> 00:24:10,556 Speaker 2: unstable to go. He couldn't transferred to an ambulance. He 433 00:24:10,596 --> 00:24:12,516 Speaker 2: really might suffer and die on the way home. In 434 00:24:12,556 --> 00:24:14,156 Speaker 2: a way that just wasn't going to work and it 435 00:24:14,196 --> 00:24:16,596 Speaker 2: wasn't worth it. And I was like, how can we 436 00:24:17,156 --> 00:24:19,516 Speaker 2: make it feel like home here, and he was like, 437 00:24:19,756 --> 00:24:22,156 Speaker 2: Katie needs to be I mean, it was obvious. It 438 00:24:22,196 --> 00:24:26,676 Speaker 2: was obvious Katie needed to be there. And then he 439 00:24:26,756 --> 00:24:29,436 Speaker 2: had to get some morphine ahead of time because it 440 00:24:29,556 --> 00:24:32,276 Speaker 2: helps you feel better when you assure a breath, and 441 00:24:32,316 --> 00:24:33,596 Speaker 2: then he kind of went to sleep, and then he 442 00:24:33,716 --> 00:24:37,476 Speaker 2: was sort of unconscious for about nine hours and then 443 00:24:37,716 --> 00:24:41,716 Speaker 2: took a last breath. I was surprised how hard it was, 444 00:24:42,196 --> 00:24:44,556 Speaker 2: even with him awake, to say what his preferences were, 445 00:24:44,636 --> 00:24:46,876 Speaker 2: even with us being doctors, to really get a sense. 446 00:24:47,356 --> 00:24:50,676 Speaker 2: There is so much that people go through when someone's dying, 447 00:24:50,796 --> 00:24:52,996 Speaker 2: Like in terms of decision making, is this what they 448 00:24:53,036 --> 00:24:54,756 Speaker 2: would have wanted? Is this really it? 449 00:24:55,596 --> 00:24:56,196 Speaker 1: What if? 450 00:24:56,356 --> 00:24:59,836 Speaker 2: And like guilt? Did we do it right? I just 451 00:24:59,876 --> 00:25:03,036 Speaker 2: feel like all you can do is do your best, 452 00:25:03,116 --> 00:25:05,116 Speaker 2: you know. I have so many patients who are like, 453 00:25:05,156 --> 00:25:09,156 Speaker 2: I don't know if we decided right. And actually he 454 00:25:09,156 --> 00:25:11,356 Speaker 2: hears like a line that Paul said that really helps 455 00:25:11,356 --> 00:25:15,036 Speaker 2: me with that same thing. He knew that I would 456 00:25:15,116 --> 00:25:18,116 Speaker 2: be really trying to make decisions on his behalf if 457 00:25:18,116 --> 00:25:21,036 Speaker 2: he couldn't speak for himself, and he was like, maybe 458 00:25:21,036 --> 00:25:24,276 Speaker 2: it goes sideways, right, even if it's not the way 459 00:25:24,316 --> 00:25:25,836 Speaker 2: you would have wanted, or you think it's not the 460 00:25:25,836 --> 00:25:27,916 Speaker 2: way I would have wanted. The last day of your 461 00:25:27,956 --> 00:25:29,836 Speaker 2: life is not the sum of your life. The sum 462 00:25:29,836 --> 00:25:32,116 Speaker 2: of your life is the sum of your life. And 463 00:25:32,156 --> 00:25:34,236 Speaker 2: it was so helpful, right because it's also like it's 464 00:25:34,276 --> 00:25:37,596 Speaker 2: the last day, but it's just a day. It's kind 465 00:25:37,596 --> 00:25:39,636 Speaker 2: of like the last day of anything is not the last. 466 00:25:39,636 --> 00:25:42,196 Speaker 2: The end of a relationship is not the whole relationship. 467 00:25:42,636 --> 00:25:46,276 Speaker 2: That was really helpful. Doesn't all come down to the end. 468 00:25:47,076 --> 00:25:50,476 Speaker 1: I love that. I thought for so long that as 469 00:25:50,516 --> 00:25:54,876 Speaker 1: a society we tend to overweight the deathbed regrets, the 470 00:25:54,916 --> 00:25:59,276 Speaker 1: deathbed wishes, the deathbed feelings, and yeah, it's just one day, 471 00:26:00,116 --> 00:26:03,156 Speaker 1: and so I really I reson. I don't think it's 472 00:26:04,756 --> 00:26:08,396 Speaker 1: it's not discounting final moments, it's just saying maybe we 473 00:26:08,436 --> 00:26:10,516 Speaker 1: ought to give them similar weight to all the other 474 00:26:10,596 --> 00:26:14,956 Speaker 1: moments that preceded them. Yeah, you know, I know you 475 00:26:14,996 --> 00:26:17,476 Speaker 1: had said like you couldn't even imagine what it would 476 00:26:17,476 --> 00:26:20,676 Speaker 1: be like in the days following Paul's death. 477 00:26:21,556 --> 00:26:24,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it was so hard. It is so 478 00:26:24,796 --> 00:26:27,676 Speaker 2: crazy when it's like I knew he was going to die, 479 00:26:28,196 --> 00:26:31,636 Speaker 2: and then still when he died, it was so shocking. 480 00:26:31,996 --> 00:26:35,156 Speaker 2: It was like he was here and then he disappeared. 481 00:26:35,236 --> 00:26:40,756 Speaker 2: It was that shocking. It's like he disappeared. And for 482 00:26:40,996 --> 00:26:43,876 Speaker 2: six months, I like still had his shoes next to 483 00:26:43,916 --> 00:26:46,036 Speaker 2: the front door, and he still had like a sock 484 00:26:46,116 --> 00:26:49,436 Speaker 2: drawer in a bookcase, and I just like didn't want 485 00:26:49,476 --> 00:26:51,436 Speaker 2: to change anything yet, and I was like, someday I 486 00:26:51,556 --> 00:26:54,876 Speaker 2: want to, Like today it's not that day. And same 487 00:26:54,916 --> 00:26:57,036 Speaker 2: thing with taking off my wedding ring. You sort of 488 00:26:57,076 --> 00:27:05,196 Speaker 2: like molt over time, and I like really felt it physically. 489 00:27:05,436 --> 00:27:08,956 Speaker 2: My hands were like burning and tingling. For a long time. 490 00:27:09,596 --> 00:27:12,156 Speaker 2: I thought maybe I had some like neurological disorder. I 491 00:27:12,196 --> 00:27:13,636 Speaker 2: was like, oh my gosh, what if I can't work 492 00:27:13,676 --> 00:27:14,916 Speaker 2: and take care of me and Katie. I had all 493 00:27:14,956 --> 00:27:18,356 Speaker 2: these catastrophic thoughts, and I really think that was actually 494 00:27:18,396 --> 00:27:22,596 Speaker 2: just like a physical manifestation of grief. And then it 495 00:27:22,716 --> 00:27:26,316 Speaker 2: ultimately just ended up being really helpful for me to 496 00:27:26,436 --> 00:27:28,276 Speaker 2: work on Paul's book. I had to like work on 497 00:27:28,316 --> 00:27:32,036 Speaker 2: it. It came out nine months after Paul died, and I 498 00:27:32,076 --> 00:27:35,116 Speaker 2: was like really involved with the editor, everything from approving 499 00:27:35,196 --> 00:27:38,236 Speaker 2: the copy edits, to writing the epilogue to like putting 500 00:27:38,756 --> 00:27:41,596 Speaker 2: these other essays that he had written to supplement pieces 501 00:27:41,596 --> 00:27:45,876 Speaker 2: that weren't finished yet to choosing the cover, So that 502 00:27:45,996 --> 00:27:46,836 Speaker 2: was really helpful. 503 00:27:47,876 --> 00:27:52,556 Speaker 1: And do you feel that that was Is that something 504 00:27:52,556 --> 00:27:55,636 Speaker 1: you learned from Paul, like the importance of meaning making 505 00:27:55,676 --> 00:27:58,196 Speaker 1: and how that can that can help heal? 506 00:27:59,476 --> 00:28:03,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean totally, I think, and like a lot 507 00:28:03,476 --> 00:28:05,636 Speaker 2: of people going through something hard or who lose somebody 508 00:28:05,676 --> 00:28:08,196 Speaker 2: or whatever like end up making something out of it 509 00:28:08,236 --> 00:28:10,956 Speaker 2: that they never would have wanted to or wanted to 510 00:28:10,996 --> 00:28:16,436 Speaker 2: have to. But I really like the book Man's Search 511 00:28:16,516 --> 00:28:18,916 Speaker 2: for Meaning by Victor Franklin. It's all about building meaning 512 00:28:18,916 --> 00:28:23,156 Speaker 2: and how meaning itself is sustaining and meaning itself is 513 00:28:23,876 --> 00:28:27,596 Speaker 2: life giving in a way. He quotes Nietzsche who says 514 00:28:28,276 --> 00:28:31,596 Speaker 2: he who has a why to live can bear almost anyhow. 515 00:28:32,556 --> 00:28:37,076 Speaker 2: And it's sort of like Maslow's hierarchy, like turned upside down, right. 516 00:28:37,116 --> 00:28:40,316 Speaker 2: It's like, if you have meaning, you can actually handle 517 00:28:40,516 --> 00:28:44,876 Speaker 2: a lot of destruction around you because you have something 518 00:28:44,916 --> 00:28:48,076 Speaker 2: to live for. But I think that's why these upending 519 00:28:48,116 --> 00:28:51,596 Speaker 2: transitions are just so impossible, because you know you have 520 00:28:51,716 --> 00:28:54,036 Speaker 2: this idea of who you're going to be in the future. 521 00:28:54,476 --> 00:28:56,476 Speaker 2: Paul thought he would be free of illness. I thought 522 00:28:56,476 --> 00:28:58,276 Speaker 2: I would be free of losing him. And I think 523 00:28:58,316 --> 00:29:01,996 Speaker 2: when something so unexpected happens to you, you have to 524 00:29:02,116 --> 00:29:05,836 Speaker 2: like rebuild an identity and rebuild meaning, and that takes 525 00:29:05,876 --> 00:29:09,676 Speaker 2: a while, and it's like totally disorienting during the time 526 00:29:09,716 --> 00:29:10,396 Speaker 2: that you don't have it. 527 00:29:11,276 --> 00:29:14,916 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think, you know, on a related point 528 00:29:14,556 --> 00:29:17,836 Speaker 1: about the visions we have of the future, I think 529 00:29:17,836 --> 00:29:19,756 Speaker 1: one of the many reasons I was so eager to 530 00:29:19,876 --> 00:29:22,836 Speaker 1: talk with you for the show is that listeners can 531 00:29:22,916 --> 00:29:26,156 Speaker 1: learn so much from you about what your grief trajectory 532 00:29:26,196 --> 00:29:26,556 Speaker 1: has been. 533 00:29:26,716 --> 00:29:30,516 Speaker 2: Like, Yeah, I mean, immediately after Paul died, I had 534 00:29:30,916 --> 00:29:32,676 Speaker 2: a couple of anchors. It was like I had to 535 00:29:32,716 --> 00:29:35,356 Speaker 2: take care of Katie, I had my job as a doctor, 536 00:29:35,676 --> 00:29:37,836 Speaker 2: and I was working on Paul's book and the old 537 00:29:37,996 --> 00:29:42,756 Speaker 2: Like it's like those things were just keeping me on earth, 538 00:29:43,556 --> 00:29:46,236 Speaker 2: like keeping me on the ground, right, not just like floating. 539 00:29:47,196 --> 00:29:49,476 Speaker 2: And then I feel like things started to fill back in, 540 00:29:49,636 --> 00:29:54,076 Speaker 2: and like, since Paul died, I've fallen into love again 541 00:29:54,316 --> 00:29:59,076 Speaker 2: and out of it and built my career in new 542 00:29:59,116 --> 00:30:01,716 Speaker 2: ways where I've done a lot of work on things 543 00:30:01,716 --> 00:30:06,516 Speaker 2: like caregiving and end of life care. And so I 544 00:30:06,516 --> 00:30:08,756 Speaker 2: don't know, it's like things surprise you and feel their 545 00:30:08,756 --> 00:30:10,876 Speaker 2: way back in back in. 546 00:30:11,196 --> 00:30:15,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, how would you describe your relationship with pain and 547 00:30:15,476 --> 00:30:19,676 Speaker 1: suffering and how would you describe your current relationship with Paul. 548 00:30:22,036 --> 00:30:26,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, Sometimes we think about sufferings like it's this kind 549 00:30:26,196 --> 00:30:28,316 Speaker 2: of like thing on the side that like, hopefully I 550 00:30:28,356 --> 00:30:31,196 Speaker 2: won't have to do that much. I feel like I'm 551 00:30:31,236 --> 00:30:33,636 Speaker 2: sort of like you're offering is a feature, not a bug. 552 00:30:34,076 --> 00:30:37,676 Speaker 2: It's like everybody will have some kind of suffering. There's 553 00:30:37,716 --> 00:30:43,236 Speaker 2: like no such thing as an uncomplicated life. And you know, 554 00:30:43,396 --> 00:30:45,636 Speaker 2: I think one of the things I like that Victor 555 00:30:45,676 --> 00:30:48,556 Speaker 2: Frankel says is he talks about how there's three places 556 00:30:48,556 --> 00:30:51,356 Speaker 2: where meaning comes from. This is his formulation, but I 557 00:30:51,476 --> 00:30:55,076 Speaker 2: like it. He's like work is one of them, love 558 00:30:55,236 --> 00:30:56,996 Speaker 2: is one of them, which is like love for a 559 00:30:56,996 --> 00:31:00,156 Speaker 2: fellow human beings, but also like gratitude, loving being alive. 560 00:31:00,996 --> 00:31:04,076 Speaker 2: And then he's he's like work and love and suffering, 561 00:31:04,196 --> 00:31:07,356 Speaker 2: and he's like suffering itself. And the way you respond 562 00:31:07,396 --> 00:31:12,476 Speaker 2: to suffering can be meaningful, whether it's like you're working 563 00:31:12,636 --> 00:31:18,396 Speaker 2: on injustice or you are proud of yourself for something 564 00:31:18,436 --> 00:31:22,276 Speaker 2: you got through, or the pure fact of enduring suffering 565 00:31:23,236 --> 00:31:26,276 Speaker 2: can be meaningful, and that resonates with me a lot. 566 00:31:26,436 --> 00:31:29,676 Speaker 2: I think suffering can be tied to meaning, But at 567 00:31:29,676 --> 00:31:31,476 Speaker 2: the same time, I think it's certainly not up to 568 00:31:31,476 --> 00:31:33,676 Speaker 2: anybody else to tell you what the meaning of your 569 00:31:33,716 --> 00:31:36,916 Speaker 2: suffering is. It's like only yours, and it can take 570 00:31:36,956 --> 00:31:40,156 Speaker 2: a long time to figure that out. And some suffering 571 00:31:40,196 --> 00:31:43,116 Speaker 2: I think doesn't have meaning. It just sucks. And then 572 00:31:43,156 --> 00:31:47,516 Speaker 2: my relationship with Paul, I love Paul. I love Paul forever. 573 00:31:48,316 --> 00:31:52,596 Speaker 2: My sadness has lifted some and my love is exactly 574 00:31:52,676 --> 00:31:55,556 Speaker 2: the same. I think it'll always be like that. I 575 00:31:55,556 --> 00:31:58,036 Speaker 2: feel proud of him. I feel like he's my family, 576 00:31:58,236 --> 00:32:00,996 Speaker 2: He's Katie's dad. He's just sort of like in the mix. 577 00:32:02,276 --> 00:32:06,836 Speaker 2: I think he's around, He's just part of my life. 578 00:32:07,076 --> 00:32:10,556 Speaker 2: And hopefully I'll fall in love again. I really believe 579 00:32:10,556 --> 00:32:12,556 Speaker 2: in love right now. I believe it'll like find me 580 00:32:12,636 --> 00:32:16,476 Speaker 2: on my sofa in a pandemic. That's how much I 581 00:32:16,476 --> 00:32:17,076 Speaker 2: believe in it. 582 00:32:49,036 --> 00:32:51,996 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. Make sure to join 583 00:32:52,036 --> 00:32:54,436 Speaker 1: me next week when I talk with doctor Richie Davidson, 584 00:32:54,956 --> 00:32:58,836 Speaker 1: a pioneer in meditation science. He walks us through some 585 00:32:59,036 --> 00:33:02,916 Speaker 1: fascinating research on meditation like his study on the world's 586 00:33:02,956 --> 00:33:07,596 Speaker 1: most experienced meditators. I'm talking like thirty four thousand hours 587 00:33:07,636 --> 00:33:12,076 Speaker 1: of meditation. It turns out they experience pain totally differently 588 00:33:12,156 --> 00:33:15,236 Speaker 1: than the rest of us. Stay tuned for more next week. 589 00:33:16,076 --> 00:33:19,196 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you're interested in hearing another story 590 00:33:19,236 --> 00:33:23,676 Speaker 1: of someone navigating grief, check out our episode Losing Dixie. 591 00:33:24,316 --> 00:33:27,036 Speaker 1: In it, I speak with my family friend Quinn Lewis, 592 00:33:27,236 --> 00:33:30,396 Speaker 1: who lost her teenage sister in a tragic accident just 593 00:33:30,516 --> 00:33:33,876 Speaker 1: months prior. She gives us a rare window into what 594 00:33:33,916 --> 00:33:36,436 Speaker 1: it looks like to be in the acute phases of grief, 595 00:33:37,196 --> 00:33:40,476 Speaker 1: and I learned so much from our conversation. I'll link 596 00:33:40,516 --> 00:33:52,876 Speaker 1: to it in show notes. A Slight Change of Plans 597 00:33:52,996 --> 00:33:56,116 Speaker 1: is created, written, and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. 598 00:33:56,876 --> 00:34:00,516 Speaker 1: The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our 599 00:34:00,596 --> 00:34:05,356 Speaker 1: senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our producer Trisha Bobita, and 600 00:34:05,436 --> 00:34:10,196 Speaker 1: our sound engineer Andrew Vestola. Louis Scarre wrote our delightful 601 00:34:10,236 --> 00:34:13,876 Speaker 1: theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A 602 00:34:13,916 --> 00:34:16,916 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries. 603 00:34:17,076 --> 00:34:20,516 Speaker 1: So big thanks to everyone there and of course a 604 00:34:20,756 --> 00:34:23,956 Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a 605 00:34:23,996 --> 00:34:27,116 Speaker 1: slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker, 606 00:34:27,716 --> 00:34:28,516 Speaker 1: See you next week.