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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Lefsetts Podcast. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is Yemi oh Yet it ran director of

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Speaker 1: King of them All, the Story of King Records. Yemmy,

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Speaker 1: how'd you decide to make this movie?

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Speaker 2: Well, I've been a jazz musician in the Cincinnati area

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Speaker 2: for about twenty years, and I've been hearing a lot

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Speaker 2: of old timers tell me about how James Brown still

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Speaker 2: owes the money. So finally, after kind of compiling the

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Speaker 2: stories together, I got into kind of the King thing,

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Speaker 2: and I started kind of doing different types of I

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Speaker 2: call them King experiments, from whether it was bringing my

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Speaker 2: entire recording studio into spaces and we recreated making a

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Speaker 2: King Records with an audience of three hundred people, and

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Speaker 2: then it kind of fell into a documentary from there.

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Speaker 3: Okay, what's your history in filmmaking?

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Speaker 2: My history in filmmaking has been it started really as

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Speaker 2: a way to promote gigs. I tried to find different

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Speaker 2: creative ways of getting people to check out jazz gigs,

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Speaker 2: which is Bob, as you can imagine, is not the

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Speaker 2: easiest task. But yeah, from there, it kind of just

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Speaker 2: grew into storytelling and just getting interviews about different types

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Speaker 2: of things and different interests, and kind of combining music

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Speaker 2: and some filmmaking was kind of the path that led

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Speaker 2: me this way.

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Speaker 3: Okay, prior to this King Records documentary, what films had

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Speaker 3: you made? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Well, this is my first feature, but I'd made certain

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Speaker 2: shorts about different subjects around Cincinnati, talking about food sustainability,

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Speaker 2: talking about food insecurity in the area, highlighting different stories

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Speaker 2: for a lot of different nonprofits, working with homeless shelters

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Speaker 2: to get people to tell their stories. We looked for

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Speaker 2: kind of ways to empower stories that people otherwise don't

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Speaker 2: care about, and that from there kind of grew into filmmaking.

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Speaker 2: This is kind of a separate path to something else

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Speaker 2: that I was working on in my life, separate from music,

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Speaker 2: and the combination of both of those paths led me

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Speaker 2: towards this film.

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Speaker 3: How much should it cost to make the film?

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Speaker 2: Oh? My lord, it cost me nine years of my

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Speaker 2: life for sure, which is priceless. A lot of it

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Speaker 2: was also self financed in there, with my money, my

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Speaker 2: business partner's money, my creative partner. Yeah, this was a

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Speaker 2: passion project. So you know, it's kind of hard to

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Speaker 2: specify how much it costs to buy this camera or

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Speaker 2: this thing that we've had for years. But yeah, it

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Speaker 2: was just a lot of love and labor and a

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Speaker 2: lot of support from foundations in Cincinnati.

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Speaker 3: So how did you end up making a deal for

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Speaker 3: it to be aired on PBS.

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Speaker 2: That's a great question. So PBS a couple of years

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Speaker 2: ago put out this campaign where they were looking to

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Speaker 2: highlight other types of filmmakers, and they put out an

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Speaker 2: open call and I found out about the open call

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Speaker 2: on the last day. I think that I actually submitted

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Speaker 2: like ten minutes before they were not taking any more submissions,

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Speaker 2: and I applied to this open call and it took

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Speaker 2: them a couple of years. I think they got a

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Speaker 2: little bit more than they bargained for, and it took

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Speaker 2: them a couple of years to go through all of

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Speaker 2: the submissions, and we just kind of stepped by step

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Speaker 2: worked through their process and we wanted the selected projects.

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Speaker 2: It was really amazing.

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Speaker 3: So they selected you before the film was done.

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Speaker 2: No, So the long story of the films, I've made

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Speaker 2: it five times already because I'm insane, Bob. So I

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Speaker 2: first started with my version of the film, which I

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Speaker 2: worked with. I didn't know how to edit film at

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Speaker 2: the time, so I worked with an editor who was

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Speaker 2: in college who didn't listen to anything that I wanted

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Speaker 2: to do. It was really frustrating and I didn't really

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Speaker 2: get the project that I wanted, but it gave me

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Speaker 2: enough of something to give people idea of what I

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Speaker 2: was going for. And then over the next several years,

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Speaker 2: I worked with either my business partner or myself when

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Speaker 2: I finally learned how to edit, but over kind of

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Speaker 2: like a five to six year period, I learned how

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Speaker 2: to basically do the full all the steps of production,

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Speaker 2: and once I kind of was empowered to do so,

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Speaker 2: I was able to submit that version, which was a

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Speaker 2: ninety minute version of the film. And then once PBS

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Speaker 2: came on board, I tried to see if I could

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Speaker 2: convince them to do the three and a half hour

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Speaker 2: version of the film that it really was. So I

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Speaker 2: stretched it all out and showed them all of it

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Speaker 2: and they got mad at me, So then it became

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Speaker 2: a seventy five minute Yeah, because for those this is

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Speaker 2: the notes of filmmakers out there, you need to do

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Speaker 2: something with fifty four minutes and forty eight seconds. That's

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Speaker 2: how much time PBS gives you. Unless you are super

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Speaker 2: special or ken Burns anybody outside of that, you get

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Speaker 2: an hour. So I had to bring the film down

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Speaker 2: to from seventy five minutes to an hour, and that's

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Speaker 2: the version that we put out, but the director's cut.

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Speaker 2: The seventy five minute version we have out. We share.

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Speaker 2: I share with my friends and you know, anybody else

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Speaker 2: who's bored enough to be interested.

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Speaker 3: Okay. Was the first time there was any public exhibition

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Speaker 3: when it went on PBS or did you go to

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Speaker 3: the film circuit film festival circuit?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we tried our hand at the film festival circuit.

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Speaker 2: And one thing that I learned about film festivals is

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Speaker 2: that they're really hard to get into. Bob, I was

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Speaker 2: really shocked. We submitted at all of the film festivals, big, small,

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Speaker 2: and everything in between, and we weren't able to air

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Speaker 2: show at a lot of the film festivals that we'd

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Speaker 2: aimed for. But we did get to show at a

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Speaker 2: local festival here called the Over the Ryan Film Festival,

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Speaker 2: and then we showed at a film festival in Florida

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Speaker 2: called the Florida Film Festival. But the one that we

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Speaker 2: did here in Cincinnati, we showed it on It was

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Speaker 2: coincidentally the same day that said Nathan Died, who was

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Speaker 2: the subject of the film, and we also kind of

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Speaker 2: felt I felt that it was really important. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's a film about Cincinnati, where I live. It all

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Speaker 2: takes place in Cincinnati, and it felt right to kind

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Speaker 2: of open and have the first premiere, the public premiere,

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Speaker 2: be in Cincinnati. So we went with that route and

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Speaker 2: the rest is history.

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Speaker 3: As they say, Okay, when we're speaking, the film has

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Speaker 3: already started to air on PBS. What has the feedback

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Speaker 3: What is your experience been in the wake of the

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Speaker 3: movie finally going public.

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Speaker 2: First of all, I want to thank you so much

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Speaker 2: for talking about our film on your newsletter. That was

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Speaker 2: really amazing. I got a lot of reach out from

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Speaker 2: a lot of I told you, I'm a professional musician,

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Speaker 2: from a lot of people I respect in the industry

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Speaker 2: reached out to me and they're like, I can't believe it.

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Speaker 2: This is amazing, So I wanted that was one of

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Speaker 2: the first pieces of feedback that we actually received, and

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Speaker 2: it was really heartwarming. A lot of years went into

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Speaker 2: this and getting a review like that from you was

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Speaker 2: life changing. So thank you. We were able to get

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Speaker 2: a lot of great you know, the Wall Street Journal

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Speaker 2: gave us a wonderful review, as well as some other

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Speaker 2: outlets Billboard Magazine, which was really super special and amazing.

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Speaker 2: We got a lot of local love in Cincinnati. There

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Speaker 2: are some haters out there, and anybody who creates something,

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Speaker 2: you always pay attention to the haters in the comments section.

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Speaker 2: But most of that is from a lot of fellow

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Speaker 2: nerds who didn't see their favorite artists featured, which I

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Speaker 2: completely understand, which is why I made a three and

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Speaker 2: a half hour version of the film and I had

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Speaker 2: to have my heart broken by removing all of that,

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Speaker 2: so I understand where all of them were coming from.

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Speaker 2: That's just passion. I love it. But it's been an

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Speaker 2: overwhelmingly positive response. A lot of people didn't know about this.

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Speaker 2: This is kind of inject some things into the conversation

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Speaker 2: that a lot of people didn't think about out and

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Speaker 2: it kind of presents something that's new to people. So

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Speaker 2: I think that's kind of fresh and interesting to a

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Speaker 2: lot of people in music history, especially.

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Speaker 3: Okay, what is special about Cincinnati?

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Speaker 2: Oh my lord, A lot of things are special about Cincinnati, man.

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Speaker 2: First of all, the drinking that if you want to

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Speaker 2: find a great person to hang out with at a bar.

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Speaker 2: Any Cincinnatian will like fit the bill, I promise, So

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Speaker 2: if anybody comes in, you don't need to know anybody.

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Speaker 2: Just come down, find a nice bar, sit down, and

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Speaker 2: before you know it, you'll be best friends with half

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Speaker 2: the city. It's the city's kind of like Cheers, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's a city that is small enough but big enough

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Speaker 2: to kind of get some things done. That's one of

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Speaker 2: the things that's really special about it. The other thing

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Speaker 2: is that it really has a love for the arts,

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Speaker 2: which a lot of cities love arts, but Cincinnati is

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Speaker 2: invested into arts in a really deep and meaningful way.

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Speaker 2: So it's a place where, you know, as a musician,

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Speaker 2: you can live as a full time musician, you can

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Speaker 2: have a professional career as an artist and still live

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Speaker 2: and raise a family and have children. It's kind of

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Speaker 2: one of those few places in America where that still exists,

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Speaker 2: and it's kind of a nestled little secret in the

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Speaker 2: landscape of America, which is what kind of makes it cool.

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Speaker 2: But there's a lot of things that make Cincinnati special.

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Speaker 2: You know, the food scene here is amazing, which opens

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Speaker 2: for a lot of collaborations between restaurants and musicians that

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Speaker 2: always end up really special and meaningful. The people of

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Speaker 2: Cincinnati are just really cool people. If like I could

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Speaker 2: just kind of put it in like a very succinct way,

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Speaker 2: just a very interesting combination of different types of people

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Speaker 2: kind of coming together to create a community. It's cool.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Ohio in the last half century is gone through

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Speaker 3: the mill, which is funny. I'm using that term telling

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Speaker 3: me about the steel mills, Columbus, Cleveland, etc. What is

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Speaker 3: the economy of Cincinnati and how is it doing?

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Speaker 2: Wow? So I used to live in the Cleveland I

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Speaker 2: actually went to boarding school outside of Cleveland, and I

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Speaker 2: grew up in Moorland Hills in Beechwood and outside of Cleveland.

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Speaker 2: And so coming down to and seeing there's a different vibe.

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Speaker 2: You know, Cleveland has a lot of old money. You

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Speaker 2: still have a lot of that Rockefeller existence in the

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Speaker 2: Cleveland area, and in Cincinnati it's a little bit different,

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Speaker 2: but it's really based. You know, Procter and Gamble is here,

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Speaker 2: which is a powerhouse part of the community, as is Kroger,

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Speaker 2: which opens a lot of opportunities for advertising. For example.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's actually a really strong advertising business community

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Speaker 2: here as well as consumer product goods. You know a

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Speaker 2: lot of these businesses around that the consumer product goods

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Speaker 2: are important. We also have a really important railway. This

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Speaker 2: is kind of a nerd fact. One of the biggest

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Speaker 2: railports is still in Cincinnati. Cincinnati really left its rail

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Speaker 2: system intact and that allowed for a lot of companies

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Speaker 2: because we still move a lot of things by freight

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Speaker 2: by rail, and that allowed a lot of companies who

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Speaker 2: were involved in the consumer product goods business to also

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Speaker 2: continue to thrive here. So there's kind of this underbelly

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Speaker 2: that even like a lot of Cincinnatians don't know, but

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Speaker 2: all these support structure of all these businesses that are

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Speaker 2: built around supporting consumer product goods groceries. But then there's

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Speaker 2: also a wide variety of other things. There's a tech

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Speaker 2: industry here. I could go on and on, but Cincinnati's

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Speaker 2: dope Man.

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Speaker 3: Also Cincinnati's famous for Greaters ice cream too, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Greater's ice Cream, Skyline Chili Man. Those are the

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Speaker 2: two things and I used early in my career. I'm

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Speaker 2: also a software developer. I worked on both of their websites.

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Speaker 2: So it wasn't very long before my doctor and I

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Speaker 2: had to have a conversation about diabetes. Because every day

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Speaker 2: in and out. All I could do is like eat

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Speaker 2: and like work on skyline and Greaters. Greaters is amazing

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Speaker 2: ice cream. If you've never had it before, like, let

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Speaker 2: me know and I will send it out to you.

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Speaker 2: It is the best. Have you ever tried it before?

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Speaker 2: Bob Oh, Yeah, I have.

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Speaker 3: That's why I mentioned it. I heard about it.

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Speaker 2: But I mean, what's your favorite? What's your favorite flavor?

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Speaker 3: I can't tell you, tell you the truth. I was

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Speaker 3: at a food festival. I love ice cream. I tried

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Speaker 3: multiple flavors. I can't tell you. And Cincinnati, I don't

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Speaker 3: think I've ever been to Cincinnati. But going back to

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Speaker 3: the street, since you're from the Cleveland area, how did

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Speaker 3: gend up in Cincinnati?

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Speaker 2: I'm actually so. My family's orisually from Nigeria, and I

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Speaker 2: moved around a lot. So my father was doing a

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Speaker 2: PhD in Cornell, and then we moved back to Nigeria.

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of a weird generational type of thing because

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Speaker 2: I spent a significant part of my childhood in Nigeria,

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Speaker 2: so I speak the language and everything. And then we

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Speaker 2: moved to the hospital, Alabama area where my father. My

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Speaker 2: father was an essence of rocket scientist, so and then

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Speaker 2: we moved to Cleveland, and then I came to Cincinnati

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Speaker 2: for college. I was looking for a program that had

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Speaker 2: a solid engineering program and a solid music program. And

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Speaker 2: there are a lot of these other programs that I

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Speaker 2: got into, but one would be better in one or

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Speaker 2: not good enough in the other, and Cincinnati kind of

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Speaker 2: had a good program in both. So I came here

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Speaker 2: and studied jazz, and I studied computer science and computer engineering,

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Speaker 2: and I continue to do both of those things here.

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Speaker 3: Okay, forgetting the film for a second. What's keeping you alive? Software? Music?

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Speaker 2: Oh lord, that's a good question. So what's keeping me

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Speaker 2: emotionally alive is definitely the music. I learned very early

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Speaker 2: in my career that if I tried to not if

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Speaker 2: I try to not have music in my life and

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Speaker 2: I couldn't create music, I turned into a dick. So

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Speaker 2: that wasn't working. And it also actually helps my software

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Speaker 2: career because I'm a lot more creative I think about.

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Speaker 2: It puts me in different scenarios to work out problems

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Speaker 2: because you just can't. It's just a different type of

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Speaker 2: problem solving. But I live off of in my family,

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Speaker 2: we live off of my computing career. But my music

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Speaker 2: career and my teacher career. My music teaching career also

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Speaker 2: is very very helpful and very very important. As you know,

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Speaker 2: the ranch is too damn high.

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Speaker 3: Okay, And how old are you today today?

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Speaker 2: I believe I am forty four years old, Bob.

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Speaker 3: Well, as I say this is audio only, you don't

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Speaker 3: look forty four. I thought you were going to say

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Speaker 3: like thirty something.

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Speaker 2: But at any event, you know, people like to say

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Speaker 2: black don't crack, and you know, I hope that continues

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Speaker 2: to be true through you know, however long i'm here.

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Speaker 3: One of the big points you make about King Records

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Speaker 3: is how integrated it was as a black man living

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Speaker 3: in Cincinnati today and in America, how do you experience racism?

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Speaker 2: Ooh, you're hitting right to the tabasco sauce right now,

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Speaker 2: getting spicy. That's a really good question. You know, race

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Speaker 2: and talking about race and King Records is challenging because

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Speaker 2: King Records offers a great example for why the complexities

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Speaker 2: around how America came about our racial integration. You know,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't done. You know, King Records shows that it's

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Speaker 2: very business driven. But even King Records, you know, they

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Speaker 2: start with a guy named Ben Siegel, who's the personnel director,

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Speaker 2: and he comes in and he wants to have a

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Speaker 2: you know, equal opportunity hiring policy and is able to

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Speaker 2: convince the owner, Sid Nathan, to go along with this.

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Speaker 2: And he's able to convince him because you know, he's like,

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Speaker 2: we're both Jews, and you know, we've just seen and

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Speaker 2: experience in Europe because again, this is the nineteen forties

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Speaker 2: where we were treated in a particular way. The takeaway

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Speaker 2: from this is we should probably not do the same thing.

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Speaker 2: And this aligned with Sid's beliefs, and so they try

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Speaker 2: an equal hiring policy into the production about I think

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Speaker 2: maybe about a year ago or two years ago, his

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Speaker 2: daughter I was able to finally get in touch with

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Speaker 2: Ben Siegel's daughter, Deborah, and she was able to share

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Speaker 2: some letters, some correspondence between Sid Nathan and her father.

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Speaker 2: And what we find over time is that there's more

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Speaker 2: complexity to this. When they have this policy at King Records,

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Speaker 2: not everybody is into this policy. There starts to be

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Speaker 2: conflicts between workers, you know, just inner office politics, and

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Speaker 2: it's not as kumbaya as we would want it to be.

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Speaker 2: It is still a product of the nineteen forties. So

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Speaker 2: they first tried with a very progressive approach, and in

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Speaker 2: a couple of years into this, they have to scale

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Speaker 2: back some of it and they start realizing there's just

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Speaker 2: not everybody gets along. So from a musical perspective, with

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Speaker 2: people like Henry Glover, who is the first black music executive,

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Speaker 2: that and King brings them on board and gives him

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Speaker 2: stock in the company. So you have great examples of

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Speaker 2: things like that that are really indicative of progressive racial ideas.

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Speaker 2: But then over time you start to see that there

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Speaker 2: is a separation. They stop having African Americans in the

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Speaker 2: office towards the fifties after Ben Siegel leaves, and then

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Speaker 2: in the sixties you start seeing a really much more

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Speaker 2: stark separation of where African Americans are working in the

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Speaker 2: pressing plants and not in the office. And there really

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Speaker 2: is kind of a more classic Jim Crow segregation in

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Speaker 2: the office, But it's not happening from the musical perspective,

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Speaker 2: because again, you know there's going to be that. It's

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Speaker 2: very back and forth. So we had to kind of

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Speaker 2: wrestle with this as we were making the film because

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Speaker 2: it is more indicative of what I see in America

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Speaker 2: and my experiences of race in America, which are complex.

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Speaker 2: You know, in some areas it's accessible and very easy

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Speaker 2: to navigate and work through being a black person in America. However,

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Speaker 2: there are some places is still today where navigating or

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Speaker 2: some situations where navigating is problematic, where not everybody is

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Speaker 2: comfortable where there should be access, but somebody is uncomfortable

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Speaker 2: with something and instead of directly saying it, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be passive, aggressive behaviors that come out

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Speaker 2: and you've got to work it through inter office politics

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Speaker 2: or some sort of political situation. Some places. Sometimes some

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Speaker 2: situations it's great. In some situations it's not so great.

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Speaker 2: And you know, this film was able to kind of

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Speaker 2: really articulate to me how there are differences in race,

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Speaker 2: you know, especially watching One thing I did is that

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Speaker 2: I went back all the way to the history of

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Speaker 2: looking at some of the arrests of some of the

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Speaker 2: people in around King records and some of the owners

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Speaker 2: and a lot of the owners were from the Jewish community,

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Speaker 2: and you see a policing of Jews in the Cincinnati

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Speaker 2: area that I really didn't expect. It really started to

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Speaker 2: dawn on me that what we have in America is

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00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,600
Speaker 2: more of a cast system, you know, and in the

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Speaker 2: nineteen fifties you really see this. You see if you

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Speaker 2: are Wasp, Western European, Anglo Saxon Protestant, that is the

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Speaker 2: definition of whiteness in that area. And then if you're

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Speaker 2: Eastern European, if you're Italian, if you're Irish, if you're

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Speaker 2: pretty much anything else, you kind of fall on a

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Speaker 2: sliding scale. And we see a lot of the policing,

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Speaker 2: and we see a lot of these things that we're

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Speaker 2: talking about in society. A lot of these communities were

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Speaker 2: also talking about that then as well. You see a

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Speaker 2: lot of Italian names in the arrest record, a lot

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Speaker 2: of Jewish names, a lot of African American names, and

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Speaker 2: what It just kind of shows that there's a lot

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Speaker 2: more complexity to our racial story, just like there was

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Speaker 2: a lot more complexity to the story at King Records. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's been an illuminating process learning these things.

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Speaker 3: So when did you first hear about Sid Nathan?

363
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Speaker 2: So the first time I heard about Sid Nathan was yikes,

364
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,000
Speaker 2: at a at a gig, somebody telling me about the

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00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:14,240
Speaker 2: fights between him and James Brown. It was about the

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Speaker 2: song I Feel Good and how James had gone to Smash,

367
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,879
Speaker 2: which was owned by Mercury at the time, and he

368
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,080
Speaker 2: thought that his contract with King Records was over. So

369
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Speaker 2: he goes over to make a deal with Mercury and

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Speaker 2: they release a song I Feel Good, and it pairs

371
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Speaker 2: and they pair it with the film Ski Party. Have

372
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Speaker 2: you ever seen that movie before, Bob? Which film Ski Party?

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Speaker 2: It's like a net Funicello film back in Uh.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, yeah, you say, yes, yes I did.

375
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Speaker 3: It was a very famous film. Bring me to Another era.

376
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Speaker 2: I've been living in that era for about ten years.

377
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Speaker 2: So he does Ski Party and it's huge and Sid

378
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 2: Nathan gets wind of this and is like, what the

379
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,320
Speaker 2: hell you still? Like, Oh, you're on my contract. So

380
00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 2: Sid has to put an embargo on the record. They've

381
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,840
Speaker 2: got a work it out and sue each other and

382
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,200
Speaker 2: it's intense, you know. And I was able to actually

383
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:09,400
Speaker 2: get a hold of some of the send each other

384
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:10,919
Speaker 2: telegrams and I was able to get some of the

385
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,920
Speaker 2: copies of the telegrams. But it was intense, like harsh talk.

386
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,679
Speaker 2: But they were able to work it out and James

387
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,640
Speaker 2: was able to come back and they released I Feel

388
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 2: Good and became a huge hit for King. But that

389
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 2: was the first time I heard about said Nathan, his

390
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,200
Speaker 2: harascible nature in working with James Brown.

391
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Speaker 3: Okay, just stay on that one thing, because I'm old

392
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,120
Speaker 3: enough to remember what I feel good with the Gigantic Kid.

393
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Speaker 3: Do you know how that worked out? Did Mercury actually

394
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 3: who was based in Chicago at that point, did they

395
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 3: actually release it? Because you know, normally you know who

396
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,679
Speaker 3: ended up making it a hit, Mercury or King and

397
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:50,679
Speaker 3: how did that happen?

398
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 2: So, yeah, it got released on Smash because I was

399
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 2: able to find the publicity shots. So there's a publicity

400
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 2: shot where it's James performing, So the James of the

401
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,440
Speaker 2: Famous Flame, Bobby Bird and all those guys, they're all

402
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 2: doing I Feel Good in the dance number on there,

403
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 2: and they have they have a promo shot where it

404
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 2: has Smashed Records right there on the bottom. So they

405
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,120
Speaker 2: released it under Smash. But once the release came out,

406
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 2: King came in right away and they had to work

407
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 2: that deal out very quickly.

408
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Speaker 3: Okay, you know, I was thrilled to see an experiencial film,

409
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 3: which is fantastic. Everybody literally should see so much. But

410
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,400
Speaker 3: I knew about Sid Nathan from Seymour Stein. You could

411
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 3: not sit with se without Sid coming up. You made

412
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 3: this film at the end of the day, how do

413
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 3: you feel about Sid the Man?

414
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Speaker 2: Uh, that's interesting, you know. I, first of all, seymour

415
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,639
Speaker 2: Stein one of the best interviews I've ever had in

416
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 2: my life. He fell asleep in it twice, but he

417
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 2: was determined to get every question answered. He wanted to

418
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 2: make sure he went on record everything you need to

419
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 2: know about Sid Nathan, which was amazing. And I also

420
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: got like a lot of advice, just like music business

421
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 2: advice and how to navigate. The guy is really really deep,

422
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 2: So it was really amazing to be able to get

423
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 2: spent some time with him, And yeah, he had a

424
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 2: lot of interesting things to say about Sidneathan. He gave

425
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,159
Speaker 2: me a different color of Sidnathan. I'm very close with

426
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 2: Sid Nathan's family, his nephew in particular, so I've gotten

427
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 2: to have a lot of viewpoints from a lot of

428
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 2: people who knew Sid personally. And Sid's kind of an

429
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 2: interesting guy, you know, Sid the man, very principled, very stubborn.

430
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 2: He's a classic metch you know, like it's that's the

431
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 2: best way that I can kind of describe it. And

432
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 2: that's something I'm I grew up in a Jewish community

433
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 2: in Cleveland, so I understand what that means and who

434
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 2: that guy is. But he's very much that classic guy

435
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 2: smokes cigars, said the first thing on his mind is

436
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 2: always kind of like making a joke, making a dirty joke,

437
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 2: you know, but on you know, so like there's that

438
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 2: kind of lovable side to him. He was very big

439
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 2: with giving gifts. Sid would go out and he'd find

440
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 2: a deal on something and he'd buy twenty of them,

441
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 2: and he's so he like, there's one time he found radios.

442
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 2: So he found this new fangled radio, so he bought

443
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 2: twenty new fangled radios. He'd have people to his house.

444
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,439
Speaker 2: He had a pool, he was always throwing parties, and

445
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 2: he'd give them these radios. Man, so you come into

446
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 2: the house and you get this like new fangled radio

447
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 2: from Sid and this other type of cigar. So I

448
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 2: connected with him on those types of things. But then

449
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 2: on the same side, you know, he's this cranky guy

450
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 2: who's constantly fighting with like Nina Simone, and he's fighting

451
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 2: with Otis Williams, and he's fighting with all these artists

452
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 2: and he has favorite artists who he loves, but he's

453
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,120
Speaker 2: kind of a jerk to some of these people, and

454
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 2: so that's kind of like an interesting dichotomy to kind

455
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,959
Speaker 2: of pull at, to kind of figure out with Sid.

456
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 2: But you know, he's kind of an interesting, hilarious character.

457
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,479
Speaker 2: He's kind of every man. He's a knockabout, and I

458
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 2: think he's kind of a character that everybody has a

459
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,360
Speaker 2: little bit of Sid Nathan inside of him.

460
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 3: Okay, the business has evolved, oh my gosh, but even

461
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 3: at this date, the terms are on the record company's side.

462
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 3: Back in Sid Nathan's date, there are a lot of

463
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 3: very famous labels that never paid royalties. In addition to

464
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 3: the fact that the royalty rates were very low. To

465
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 3: what degree were the acts angry that when they had success,

466
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 3: the lion's share of the money went to the label

467
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 3: as opposed to them.

468
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 2: Wow, it is a subject matter that keeps coming, that

469
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 2: came up in every interview with every artist or anybody's

470
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 2: every artist interview comes up. So Sid was very, very

471
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 2: scrupulous and very you know on the negotiations. You know,

472
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 2: he'd come at you hard on the negotiations, and it

473
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 2: was mainly because you know, Grandpa Jones talks about this

474
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 2: in an interview he you know, he would come at

475
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: you hard, but once you made the deal, he would

476
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: stick to the end of the deal. You know, Grandpa

477
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 2: Jones played four cents aside, which is a terrible deal,

478
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 2: you know, and you know four cents is nothing, but

479
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,959
Speaker 2: you know, Grandpa Jones said nobody was going to give

480
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 2: him a deal of any kind. And without that deal,

481
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,360
Speaker 2: you know, a couple of years later he moved to RCA.

482
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 2: He would have never gotten the RCA deal if he

483
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 2: didn't get the King deal. And he's able to move on.

484
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 2: There's some artists, particularly African American artists, that their ability

485
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 2: to move on wasn't easy and wasn't as there wasn't

486
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 2: a path for them that they could easily move on

487
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 2: to another label. Some there were, but a lot of

488
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 2: people really did feel that Sid Nathan didn't do them right.

489
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 2: But James, you know, there's an interview with James Brown

490
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 2: where he kind of clarifies the situation. You know, James

491
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 2: Brown is an international star. The first time I heard

492
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: about James Brown was in my grandmother's records in Nigeria

493
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 2: as a kid, and it wasn't a King record. I

494
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: don't remember the name of the label, but I definitely

495
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 2: remember it wasn't King because I definitely would have recognized it.

496
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 2: It was, you know, a bootleg probably, and what James

497
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: space was internationally, there wasn't anybody who could control his royalties.

498
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 2: Sid Nathan couldn't collect royalty. You know, collecting royalties back

499
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 2: then especially was really tough. You had to be the

500
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 2: one to go out there and figure out who's making

501
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 2: your stuff or playing your stuff, and you got to

502
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 2: figure the money out, which was a lot tougher, you know.

503
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 2: So the ability to collect all the royalties was difficult

504
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 2: in the first place, and in James Brown's case, it

505
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 2: wasn't possible, which was one of the things he wanted

506
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 2: from a Polydor. So when he moved to an international

507
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 2: German company like Polydor in seventy one, you know, he's

508
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 2: now able to get the full He's now able to

509
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 2: collect royalties. And along the way, James been able to

510
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 2: renegotiate his deal, but not every artist was able to

511
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 2: renegotiate their deal. So you have artists like Otis Williams

512
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 2: and the Charms who lives here in Cincinnati, and he

513
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 2: had the biggest doop group in the nineteen fifties. They

514
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 2: were huge, and they had hit after hit after hit.

515
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 2: You know, Sid would do things like, you know, his

516
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 2: mom got married, so Sid would pay for the wedding

517
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 2: and then Sid would then turn around and charge Otis's

518
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 2: account for it. Or Sid would buy cars for people.

519
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 2: So Sid had a relationship with a car dealership down

520
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 2: the street from the studio, which was so he would

521
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: go there and make a deal. I'll purchase these cars

522
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 2: at this rate near cost, you make a little bit

523
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: of money over it, and I'll sell it to the artists,

524
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 2: which then gets him because it's depreciating asset. He's able

525
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 2: to then make more money off the top of paying

526
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 2: the artist these deals with the Cadillac, for example, and

527
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 2: a lot of these artists didn't understand that that was

528
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 2: going on, so a lot of them felt screwed over.

529
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 2: But Sid would find these ways of being able to,

530
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 2: you know, increase his profit by doing things like paying

531
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: for events or paying for like your baby shower, things

532
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: like that, which a lot of artists didn't appreciate because

533
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 2: he wasn't really upfront with what was happening there. So

534
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: there's a lot of that type of stuff. But you know,

535
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 2: that was just record business back in the nineteen fifties

536
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 2: and sixties, which, to be honest, Bob hasn't changed a

537
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 2: whole lot. To be honest, you know, the deals are

538
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 2: pretty much the same. Artists are getting the same type

539
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 2: of you know, artists are coming to these deals with

540
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 2: the same amount of education, and record labels are in

541
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 2: essence doing the same version of what they've always been doing.

542
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 3: So in terms of his business savvy, was Sid totally

543
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,479
Speaker 3: a man of experience or were there things in his

544
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 3: family or other things that happened that gave insight into

545
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 3: how to run a business?

546
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: Oh, my lord, No, Sid was a knockabout man like.

547
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 2: So he had his bookie. This guy named Howard Kessel

548
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 2: was the family bookie, you know, and you know he

549
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 2: was kind of he had like mob relations man, but

550
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 2: he was like the local bookie. And he puts in

551
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 2: ten grand But Howard's wife like is railing against him

552
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 2: because he's Sid's cousin and he's saying, don't put much.

553
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 2: She's like, don't put money into this. I can't believe it.

554
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 2: And Howard was not the world's I met his granddaughter.

555
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 2: She let me know that he was a horrible husband's

556
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 2: very very mean man. So the fact that his wife

557
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 2: wasn't into this really got Howard to double down. But

558
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 2: you know, Sid was known as somebody who you weren't

559
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 2: going to necessarily invest into. Sid was also really sick.

560
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 2: He had a lot of health problems, so you know,

561
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: he went into business with his brother in law. They

562
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 2: started a that's actually how the idea of getting into

563
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 2: the record business started. He thought that, hey, if I

564
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: go into the record business, I can do this. They

565
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 2: start a whole record shop and Sid ends up having

566
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 2: some health issues and has to go down to Florida

567
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 2: with his guy as a brother who's a doctor in

568
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 2: Florida who has to nurse him back to health and

569
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 2: it takes like two years. So Sid can get into stuff,

570
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 2: but you know, because of his health, he might have

571
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 2: to pull out of it because of all kinds of circumstances.

572
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 2: Whether you know, he was sometimes not always on the

573
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 2: top or on the table. Everything wasn't, you know, on

574
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 2: the up and up as they say, so some things

575
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 2: would fall apart. But he had different He was a

576
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 2: he had a pawn shop, he was a wrestling promoter.

577
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: He had a shooting gallery. He got arrested for that.

578
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 2: He got arrested for crossing the street and getting a

579
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 2: jaywalk coming out of a movie theater once. That was fun. Yeah,

580
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 2: he was involved in all kinds of different schemes and

581
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 2: they would always fall apart, so people didn't really see

582
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 2: him to be a sure bet. But you know, he

583
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 2: was able to get family. It was getting enough friends

584
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 2: to kind of put money. They all put ten thousand

585
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 2: dollars each in nineteen forty three. That's a ton of money,

586
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 2: and they're able to get this record business started. But

587
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: everybody was kind of dubious that he was going to

588
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 2: be able to make anything out of it.

589
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 3: Okay, at what point did it look like it was

590
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 3: going to be a business?

591
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:25,239
Speaker 2: Oh, you know, that's a great question. You know, I

592
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 2: would argue that from day one it looked like it

593
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 2: was going to be a business. You know, WLW, which

594
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 2: is this record, which is this radio station here in Cincinnati.

595
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 2: It's still around, but it was one of the first

596
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: big radio stations in America. They were able to broadcast

597
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 2: at fifty thousand jigawatts. I'm making that word up, but

598
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: they were able to broadcast at the highest level. Then

599
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 2: they had to get government permission. It was a big

600
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 2: deal and which allowed them to broadcast. Basically they could

601
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,479
Speaker 2: be heard through the HEMISPR. So a lot of the

602
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 2: first places where you hear jazz is from this radio

603
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 2: station WLW Jazz in the Midwest. That's what really distributes it.

604
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,719
Speaker 2: So this this radio station is right around the corner

605
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 2: from his record shop, and a lot of these guys

606
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 2: come into the record shop looking for music. They're looking

607
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: In their interviews, they talk about looking for black music.

608
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 2: They're looking to cover black music because they got to

609
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 2: like come up with new songs after new songs after

610
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: new song every day on the radio. So all these artists,

611
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 2: Grandpa Jones, Cowboy Kopis, all these artists are coming through

612
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 2: and they're buying records and they're learning these tunes, and

613
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: they're saying, hey, why don't you None of them are

614
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 2: at this point I'm capable of. They're not the big

615
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,479
Speaker 2: stars at WLW. They can't get record labels, you know,

616
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 2: they're not like the Clooney sisters. You know, this is

617
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: how Rosemary Clooney gets her starts from this radio station

618
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 2: in fifties. So we're not the big ones. Hey, how

619
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 2: about we connect. How we get this guy who's doing

620
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 2: the record shop, How we get him to help us out.

621
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 2: So he kind of came in with knowing what the

622
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 2: client tell look like from people he was selling records to.

623
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 2: And then he had all these artists that are sitting

624
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 2: right there at WLW, and he kind of puts two

625
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: and two together. I've got, you know, a hungary audience,

626
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 2: and then I also have these musicians who are looking

627
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 2: for outlets, and two and two together. He kind of

628
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 2: had a built in situation. He was just kind of

629
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 2: able to slot himself in. But you know what's interesting

630
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 2: about WLW is that after they stopped having live on

631
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 2: air talent, all of the acts go down to Nashville

632
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 2: because the next station that's able to allow to broadcast

633
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 2: at this level is WSM, which is that's the home

634
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 2: of the grand Ole Opry. So that's when we now

635
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 2: see the rise of grand Ole operating the rise of Nashville.

636
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 2: After all of these musicians leave the prestige job of

637
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 2: WLW because they're not doing live talent, and Nashville is

638
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: able to keep this tradition going and keep it alive

639
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 2: to what we see here and the celebration we see

640
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 2: in the Ryeman and how Nashville is Nashville.

641
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 3: So how does Sid get in the record business.

642
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, So he takes these guys from WLW and they're

643
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 2: not allowed to record in Cincinnati. WLW has an embargoo

644
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 2: on how they're allowed to and where they're allowed to record.

645
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 2: So they have to drive up to Dayton, Dayton, Ohio,

646
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 2: which is about an hour away, and they go there

647
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 2: and they make a recording and it's a crappy recording.

648
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 2: I was actually able to get a copy of that.

649
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 2: It's really bad. We had to do a lot of

650
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 2: music editing to get all the noise and all like.

651
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 2: It's just not a good recording. And he puts this

652
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 2: together and he's able to get it started, so he's

653
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 2: able to kind of figure out a way of being

654
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 2: able to record in Cincinnati. And these guys there's a

655
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 2: guy named Bucky Herzog who did a lot of work

656
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 2: with other main other major country acts here in here

657
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 2: in Cincinnati area, and he starts working with them and

658
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 2: Sid's like it's crazy. Sid like breaks into their sessions.

659
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: He's screaming his head off, He's yelling at people, I

660
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 2: want you to do this. And finally this guy Herzog

661
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 2: has enough of it and kicks sit out, and Sid

662
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 2: has to find a place to record. So that's when

663
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 2: he finds his own recording studio and he sets up

664
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 2: all of it. He sets up his own company. And

665
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 2: because he's such a pain in the ass to deal with,

666
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,720
Speaker 2: and you know, he has to do it all by himself.

667
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 2: So he has to have the recording studio by himself,

668
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 2: he has to press the records by himself, and he

669
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 2: ends up ending up at zero integration to solve the

670
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 2: problems of the fact that he's a difficult he's an asshole,

671
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: you know, like if I was just gonna put it

672
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 2: like bluntly, he just isn't really able to play well

673
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: with others. And because of that, he has to have

674
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,919
Speaker 2: everything in house, which ends up being his superpower.

675
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 3: So when he built his own studio, I mean Atlantic Records,

676
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:56,959
Speaker 3: they used to record in the office. They would push

677
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 3: the desks into the corner. Yeah, get up at night.

678
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 3: So what kind of recording facilitated sid build?

679
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 2: That's true. Yeah, you know they started just like that

680
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: Ed King where they first started by doing things in

681
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 2: the office. And so a lot of I've got these

682
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 2: great interviews with with the office workers, and they would

683
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 2: talk about the fact that they'd come in the next

684
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 2: morning and they'd be boozed. So like the song good

685
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 2: Rocking Tonight. They came in and they had to record

686
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 2: because there's a band coming through. The Petrillo Band's about

687
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 2: to come through, which is the first strike by the

688
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 2: Musicians Union, and they are striking because of jukeboxes are

689
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 2: taking a lot of their gigs away. So because of this,

690
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 2: the record companies can't get artists to record. So before

691
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 2: this in nineteen forty seven, in the December forty seven,

692
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: they quickly have this marathon recording session and they bring

693
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 2: in with Nony Harris and they record in the office.

694
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 2: So that version of good Rocking Tonight that you hear

695
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 2: is them in the office, and they'd have to go

696
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 2: clean up after, you know, like he got booze and

697
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 2: cigarettes all over the place and all these like office

698
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:07,919
Speaker 2: ladies have to clean it up, and they're finally sick

699
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 2: of it. So Sid has to go build a recording studio.

700
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 2: So he has his family has bad eyesight cataracts, so

701
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 2: he has cataract surgery and all of them, all of

702
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,720
Speaker 2: his family members, they all this was like his sister

703
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 2: had cataract surgery and actually made her vision worse. Every

704
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 2: member of their family still to this day. They all

705
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,280
Speaker 2: have bad eyesight. So he goes in for cataract surgery

706
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 2: and and then you had to stay in the hospital

707
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 2: for I think like two weeks. So he gets out

708
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 2: of the hospital after this forty eight session and they

709
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 2: can't really do anything. So he starts. He decides that

710
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 2: he's going to go out and he's going to build

711
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 2: a recording studio. He doesn't know how to do one,

712
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 2: and he's classic. Sid goes out there, takes his shovel

713
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: and starts digging. He's got like bandages still on, so

714
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 2: everybody's looking like Henry Glover is looking like what the

715
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: hell is he doing. They go out and they figure

716
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 2: out what's going on. They're finally able to get contractors

717
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 2: and get the situation, but they didn't particularly get it's

718
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 2: not on the same d because he did this, and

719
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 2: it's separate from the building, so it causes all in

720
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 2: King history and like in the efforts of saving the building,

721
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 2: the fact that he did this actually ended up being

722
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 2: the reason why they're actually able to preserve one large

723
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 2: part of the King Building because Sid went ahead and

724
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 2: just built it and without asking any permission or getting

725
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 2: any kind of legals around. It actually ended up being

726
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 2: to the benefit of rescuing it in the long run.

727
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 2: But he just did whatever the hell he wanted, whenever

728
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 2: he wanted, And that is how Sid started his record studio.

729
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 3: Okay, for those who haven't seen the movie, tell us

730
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 3: a story of how Sid even falls into the music business.

731
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Sid had been So there was a big

732
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:59,399
Speaker 2: flood in nineteen thirty seven in Cincinnati. If you look

733
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,280
Speaker 2: at any archive footage, you will find hours and hours

734
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 2: and hours talking about this flood. It's like hilarious. It

735
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 2: was huge news. And there was a jukebox operator in

736
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 2: the flood who lost everything and the only thing he

737
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,879
Speaker 2: had left was records. So he'd owed Sid money from

738
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,959
Speaker 2: the pawnshop and from the record shop. So he goes

739
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 2: in from the pawn shop rather and he says, he man, like,

740
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 2: I can't pay you back this six bucks. I just

741
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 2: lost everything. Here are all my records. If you put

742
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,439
Speaker 2: these out and you sell them, you'll make more than

743
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 2: enough of the six bucks back. So you know, Sid

744
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 2: takes the deal and they put them out and they

745
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 2: sell like hotcakes. They sell all of the records really quickly,

746
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 2: so quickly they understand that there's a market here, so

747
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 2: he gets into the record shop business that way. Over

748
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 2: time he ends up having to leave it. As I

749
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 2: said before, he gets sick, and then he comes back

750
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 2: to Cincinnati and he's got this idea of this record shop.

751
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,720
Speaker 2: So he starts a record shop right next to WLW

752
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 2: and he gets to the artists, and so these artists

753
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 2: convince him to get into the record making business. And

754
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 2: from the record making business he basically works because his

755
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 2: struggles with working with others. He works himself into a

756
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 2: situation where he is now he has to have vertical

757
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 2: integration to be able to operate. And from there he

758
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 2: starts looking for African American artists, and he starts looking

759
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 2: for hillbilly at artists. There was really, you know, back then,

760
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 2: a lot of the major record labels, RCA, Decca, all

761
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 2: those guys weren't doing country. Forties country was really outrey

762
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 2: back then. It wasn't in. Being a hillbilly wasn't cool.

763
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 2: So King Records because of that kind of captures bluegrass

764
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 2: mountain music turning into bluegrass turning into country, and they

765
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 2: get these artists who were kind of like having this

766
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 2: migration into nineteen forties country, which eventually becomes huge with

767
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 2: nineteen fifties and once kind of these record labels show

768
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 2: that country music is hip, you start seeing the majors.

769
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 2: RCA starts swooping in taking some of these guys, and

770
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 2: a lot of these guys have a resurgence. So you

771
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 2: see guys like Hawkshaw Hawkins and Cowboy Copis. They both

772
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 2: pass away famously on the flight with Patsy Klein at

773
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 2: the time. Both of them were bigger stars than Patsy

774
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 2: Klein was in the fifties because they were the bigger acts.

775
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:24,879
Speaker 2: You know, they had this big They became huge on King,

776
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 2: went to RCA and then eventually Starday Records, which was

777
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 2: a famed label in Nashville. But you have these guys

778
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 2: are huge, you know, country's big, and Sid gets into it,

779
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 2: then he gets out of it. You have guys that

780
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 2: are like the Stanley Brothers who were over at Capital.

781
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 2: They moved to King because the majors leave bluegrass, bluegrasses

782
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 2: in this cool country becomes the cool thing and Sid

783
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: decides to invest into that, and he's also then investing

784
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,760
Speaker 2: in the black music at the time, because the majors

785
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 2: weren't everybody's trying to do pop. Everybody's trying to have

786
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 2: a pop break, and Sid, you know, he starts bringing

787
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 2: some of these early Detroit artists like Hank Ballard and

788
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,280
Speaker 2: Little Willie John because there wasn't any place to record.

789
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 2: Motown wasn't a thing yet, so a lot of these

790
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:10,879
Speaker 2: black artists like John Lee Hooker, they've got to find

791
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 2: all these places to record. From Detroit, they come down

792
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 2: three hours south to Cincinnati. Sid gets these guys too,

793
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 2: and he's getting guys like Hank Ballard, which leads him

794
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 2: to guys like James Brown, and James Brown's able to

795
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 2: kind of carry the business forward through the sixties. But

796
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 2: that's kind of like their arc you know, through American music,

797
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 2: they kind of capture these they're in the spaces where

798
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 2: nobody else is in because they're able to find an

799
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 2: audience kind of you know, they had vertical integration. So

800
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 2: Sid had no problem giving it a try. So he

801
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 2: had guys like Otis Redding. Otis Redding recorded with King

802
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 2: before his Stax days, and he has a great song

803
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 2: Shout Bamlama. I highly recommend checking it out. It's super

804
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 2: dope and it's like powerful. Otis Redding. You hear Otis

805
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 2: Redding is fully formed. You know, he was a journeyman

806
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 2: singing or going from label to label. He stops at King.

807
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 2: Sid's like, why not, let's give it a try. Let's

808
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 2: put it out and see what happens. Nothing happens, but

809
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 2: you have you know, he has he's able to capture

810
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 2: people like Patty Labelle's first record with the Blue Belts

811
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 2: when she's fourteen, because she's a good singer. Let's give

812
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,760
Speaker 2: it a try and let's see what happens. And Sid

813
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 2: ends up capturing a lot of these huge musical acts

814
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 2: while they were young, while they were just getting started

815
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 2: early in their career, because he has vertical ingration and

816
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 2: he's he's willing to kind of take a shot, you know,

817
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 2: you take a shot of these musicians. See what happens.

818
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 2: If anything huge happens, go for it. If nothing happens,

819
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 2: then you move on to the next guy. But that

820
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 2: was kind of his arc in the music business.

821
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 3: Why was it called King record, That's.

822
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 2: A great question. He was driving to that first recording

823
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 2: session in Dayton and Grandpa Jones had kind of been

824
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 2: doodling this character. So Grandpa Jones had this he was

825
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 2: a really he was really good at drawing. So he's

826
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,919
Speaker 2: like making this little cartoon and they're making jokes and

827
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 2: finally the conversation shifts to, Okay, so you're starting this

828
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 2: record company. What are you gonna call it? And Sid decides,

829
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 2: I'm gonna call it King Records because I'm gonna be

830
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 2: the King of them all and that was his goal

831
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 2: and that's how he came up with it, and that

832
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 2: was their first slogan. They put it on their first records.

833
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 2: It's actually the title of our film, and that is

834
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 2: why he named the King. He started Queen Records soon

835
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 2: after that, which was the African American label, but he

836
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 2: kind of starts with that King Queen thing. They're pressing

837
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 2: companies called Royal Plastics, so he kind of has this

838
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 2: theme that he's doing for the first couple of years

839
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 2: of King, and then he kind of merges everything under

840
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 2: there and eventually brings in other labels under his control

841
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 2: over time.

842
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 3: Why were James Brown's records put out on Federal Records?

843
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 3: And do you have any idea where that name came from?

844
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Federal label. So Federal. That label was started

845
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 2: by I'm seeing his face and I am blanking on

846
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 2: his name. I can't believe it. Not Henry Stone. Uh,

847
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 2: there was a produce iowall blank, I'm so sorry. There

848
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 2: was a producer that that they'd started Federal under and

849
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 2: Sid kind of came to the situation as a partner,

850
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 2: and that is that was their label for African American music,

851
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 2: one of the labels that he picked up. So they

852
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 2: had put different African American artists on there, like Hank

853
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 2: Ballard was on Federal and they'd moved different people. They

854
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 2: had Deluxe Records, which another record label that they had

855
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 2: there was African American Focus that was with Henry Stone.

856
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 2: They had different labels that were kind of focused for

857
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 2: different target areas, and Federal was kind of their Southern music,

858
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: so African American Southern label, because there was a lot

859
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 2: of the producers that worked through there were working through

860
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 2: the Chitlin circuits basically, and that's what that label's focus was.

861
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 2: So when it came under the when Sid Nathan bought

862
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 2: it and came under its ownership, all those artists kind

863
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 2: of were put under that label. So a lot, yeah,

864
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 2: a lot of the famous Flames were originally done under Federal,

865
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 2: but then later in the sixties, they move under the

866
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:21,839
Speaker 2: King umbrella as well.

867
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 3: Okay, he has the record shop right next to the

868
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:32,240
Speaker 3: radio station. What are literally the first acts he cuts?

869
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 3: And what is the first one or the first couple

870
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 3: that start to sell?

871
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 2: So in forty three his first ones that he does.

872
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 2: That's with Grandpa Jones and Merle Travis. Merle Travis, for

873
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 2: any guitar fans out there, invented Travis picking. If you're

874
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 2: familiar with that, it's with a thumb pick. He's one

875
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 2: of the most important guitarists of all time. I got

876
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 2: to have a whole rundown with Vince gil Vince Gill is,

877
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 2: by the way, amazing. He knows everything about every guitar

878
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 2: style and guitarist of country music lore, so he was

879
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 2: really able to kind of like really color in a

880
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 2: lot of those details for me. But Merle Travis is

881
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,280
Speaker 2: kind of the first guys. Then he's got the Delmore

882
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 2: Brothers in there as well, and Cowboy copis hawkshaw Hawk

883
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 2: Hawkins comes to the deal later. But it's a lot

884
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 2: of these country guys, but a lot of them have

885
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 2: to go to war, So a lot of them end

886
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:30,439
Speaker 2: up having to go to World War for World War two,

887
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 2: which cuts kind of makes a break in their relationship.

888
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 2: It's actually one of the reasons why they lose their

889
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,919
Speaker 2: deal with King. And when they come back, they see

890
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 2: a resurgence because a lot of the big labels are

891
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: now interested in these artists and a lot of them

892
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 2: able to go on. So you see Grandpa Jones, for example,

893
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 2: goes on to be on Hehaw. So anybody any fans

894
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:53,839
Speaker 2: of he Haw out there, Grandpa Jones from he Haw.

895
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 2: But you see a lot of these artists. You know,

896
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 2: World War Two kind of gets in the way, but

897
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 2: the first stars that he gets are are these guys,

898
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 2: and Cowboy Copus is his first hit. In nineteen forty eight,

899
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 2: they have a hit with called Filipino Baby, which is

900
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 2: looking back from the lens of understanding things now. It's

901
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 2: a very kind of problematic song if you're a Filipino,

902
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 2: I don't think it'd be your favorite song, but it is.

903
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 2: It is a song of its time. But it was

904
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 2: one of the first hits they have, and forty eight

905
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 2: becomes their big year because they've got that song. They've

906
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 2: got good rocking tonight, they've got a bull Moose Jackson hit.

907
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 2: I think the forty eight forty eight. So Me and

908
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 2: my ten inch record was like the big hit back then,

909
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,879
Speaker 2: which was a euphemism, you know, sexual euphemism back then.

910
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 2: But yeah, so they in forty eight, they have a

911
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,280
Speaker 2: slew of hits with a lot of these artists. Tomorrow

912
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 2: Night with is one big hit. They just kind of

913
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 2: start having hits in the African American market, in the

914
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 2: country market, first starting with Cowboy Copus, but then very

915
00:49:58,120 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 2: quickly with a bunch of artists in forty eight.

916
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 3: Let's be a little more granular. He opens the records store.

917
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 3: They come from the radio station to buy records. The

918
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 3: acts that played the radio station, are those the first

919
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 3: acts he records.

920
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, the acts that are playing so Merle Travis, Grandpa Jones,

921
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 2: the Delmore Brothers, they're all acts that are playing shows

922
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 2: at WLW, also at some other radio stations. So like

923
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 2: the Delmore brothers. Alton Delmore had a drinking problem, so

924
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 2: they had they kind of were they bounced around from

925
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 2: radio station to radio station. So at the time, I

926
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 2: think they'd just been let go from WLW, but were

927
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 2: picked up from one of the Kentucky radio stations. So

928
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 2: they're in the area and they're able to work with Sid,

929
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 2: but yeah, he's kind of farming from a lot of

930
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,720
Speaker 2: this talent that's kind of in the Cincinnati area because

931
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 2: of the prestige radio jobs.

932
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 3: Okay, how does the light bulb go off? These guys

933
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 3: come to buy records bitching about the you know, the

934
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 3: problems with the radio station. Did they say, hey, Sid,

935
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 3: you should make a record with us. Where does light

936
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 3: bulb go off? As Sid go wait a second here,

937
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 3: I could make these records.

938
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I believe that it was the Delmore brothers

939
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 2: who first hatched the idea because they needed like they

940
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 2: needed some career help because I said, you know, one

941
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 2: of the brothers had a really severe drinking problem. They

942
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 2: got them in trouble, and they needed a way to

943
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 2: be able to kind of advertise, and nobody was going

944
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 2: to take a risk on them. So I believe it

945
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 2: was first to Delmore brothers to kind of start the coercing,

946
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 2: followed by Grandpa Jones and Merle Travis because none of

947
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 2: them were going to get a record deal anywhere. And

948
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 2: it's because of that that they kind of stay in

949
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 2: Sid's ear and Sid's like, okay, I see there's a

950
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 2: market here. Maybe you know, he SID was visually impaired,

951
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,839
Speaker 2: so allowed him to you know, he was familiar with

952
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 2: Society for Blind made records for the blind, so he

953
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 2: was kind of familiar with the process and had access

954
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 2: to see how those records were pressed. So the combination

955
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:13,720
Speaker 2: of having access to see how the records were pressed

956
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 2: allowed him to kind of say, Okay, so I had

957
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 2: this access to seeing where the records are, I've got

958
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 2: these artists, I've got this market. I think that I

959
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 2: can pull this off, you know, and like a lot

960
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 2: of these guys, you know, conversation kind of worked up.

961
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:29,799
Speaker 2: You know, these guys kind of worked them up to

962
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 2: have the gumption to give it a try.

963
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:38,760
Speaker 3: Okay. So if you didn't make a record with SID,

964
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 3: and you didn't make a record with the major companies

965
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:47,760
Speaker 3: like RCAA, did SID have any competition on the independent level?

966
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, I mean there was a slew of independent

967
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 2: record labels, particularly you know Chess, Leonard Chess, the Chess Brothers.

968
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 2: One of the perfect examples again is with Jane The

969
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 2: signing of James Brown is hilarious. And I just remember

970
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 2: the name Ralph Bass over Federal Records, and Ralph Bass

971
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 2: is a legendary for anybody who's familiar Ralph Bass is

972
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 2: going through the South. You know, he's this Russian jew

973
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 2: who was really really like had his pulse on African

974
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,320
Speaker 2: American music. He was the guy that would go into

975
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 2: like the depths of it. There are a couple of

976
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 2: guys like that around. King Moon Mulligan was another guy

977
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 2: who was like this who they really were entrenched in

978
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 2: African American music culture, and so he was like really

979
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,920
Speaker 2: he knew about James Brown, and you knew James Brown

980
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:43,879
Speaker 2: was happening. So he ends up heading to he gets

981
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 2: wind of James Brown happening. James Brown was supposed to

982
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 2: sign with Chess Brothers. In fact, a bunch of other

983
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 2: record labels were snipping around James Brown around the time

984
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 2: when James Brown becomes a hit the Chess Brothers, there's

985
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 2: a huge snowstorm in Chicago, so the Chess Brothers an't

986
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,680
Speaker 2: able to get down to South to Georgia in time.

987
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 2: Bass hears about this and hurries up and gets to

988
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 2: these guys, and then he throws in a little bit

989
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,879
Speaker 2: of extra cash, so it kind of likes smooth it over,

990
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 2: and he's able to get James Brown to sign the

991
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 2: Federal contract, and even though he had already planned and

992
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 2: agreed to sign the Chess contract. So there was a

993
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 2: competition for artists between them, and there's also a competition

994
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:31,359
Speaker 2: for music. So I read once that Doctor John. One

995
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 2: of Doctor John's first gigs was to transcribe records, and

996
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:41,919
Speaker 2: he would transcribe like King records, so you would see

997
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:44,439
Speaker 2: hits that were coming up in different cities. So you'd

998
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 2: see hits coming up in New Orleans, you'd quickly come in,

999
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:50,240
Speaker 2: transcribe it, get the music out, get your own artists

1000
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 2: to record your version of it, and you'd put it

1001
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 2: out on the market. And that was a common thing.

1002
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 2: You know, we don't have holds. So the last time

1003
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:01,720
Speaker 2: I think we saw this was that Rhyanne a Leanne

1004
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 2: rhyme song with Trisha Yearwood. They came out with the

1005
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 2: same song, what like ninety six how Do I Live

1006
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 2: Without You? That song. That's the last time we've seen

1007
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 2: this in like modern music. But that used to be

1008
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:14,720
Speaker 2: a thing all the time. You'd had all these answer

1009
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 2: songs and people covering songs, and there was this kind

1010
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 2: of industry around who could kind of beat each other

1011
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,839
Speaker 2: to the market, and so that was kind of the market.

1012
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 2: That was the competition. But Sid, because he had vertical integration,

1013
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 2: he could beat everybody in the market. He could get

1014
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,240
Speaker 2: to like you could record a song in the morning

1015
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 2: and you could have that on the trucks in the

1016
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 2: cities in the next within forty eight hours of recording.

1017
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 2: Nobody else had that speed in the music business. So

1018
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 2: it made it really hard for people to stay in.

1019
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 2: So that's why King is around for fifteen years. You know,

1020
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 2: if you look at all these other record labels, Chess,

1021
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 2: it's a very short line run. You look Sun Records,

1022
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 2: it's five years. You look in at Atlantic, you know,

1023
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 2: all of these runs the companies are five, six years,

1024
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,359
Speaker 2: seven years here and there. Stax kind of has a

1025
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 2: second wing after their vote years. But you know, each

1026
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 2: one of these record labels, they're very they're in and out.

1027
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 2: You know, it's a short part of American history. King

1028
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 2: Records is able to stay from the Roosevelt administration to

1029
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 2: the Nixon administration because of being able to do this,

1030
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 2: They're able to be quick to market in the first

1031
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 2: one to market and that's kind of really what kept

1032
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 2: them floating, and that's what kept SID special in the marketplace.

1033
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,319
Speaker 3: How did Sid get along with the Chess brothers and

1034
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 3: the rest of his contemporaries.

1035
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I would love to be a fly in

1036
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 2: the wall between a meeting between Leonard Chess and Sid Nathan.

1037
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 2: That would make great TV America. You know, I assume

1038
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 2: that it would have been congenial but different, you know,

1039
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:53,839
Speaker 2: I that's a good question because you know, a lot

1040
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 2: of these guys they had to work together. Sim could

1041
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 2: press his own records, so a lot of these companies

1042
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 2: would press their records with other record labels. So you

1043
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 2: would work with Sid. Other record labels were you know,

1044
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:12,280
Speaker 2: there's a there's all these different artists that would use

1045
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:16,959
Speaker 2: the record pressing business as their label. So some places

1046
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 2: would go to RCA. RCA had a spot in Indiana

1047
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 2: outside of Indianapolis that they would pressed a lot of

1048
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 2: their records. You'd have to get in line, and it

1049
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 2: wasn't very quick, you know, sometimes it'd be a month

1050
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,920
Speaker 2: long turnaround, so you'd have to find all these other

1051
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 2: companies that did different parts of the business. Sid did

1052
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 2: his own stuff in house, so some of these record

1053
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 2: labels would have to rely on Sid and that's how

1054
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 2: they came into you know, like Bethlehem Records, which is

1055
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 2: a jazz label. We're pressing their records, and eventually, when

1056
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 2: they started running into problems, Sid buys the record label.

1057
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 2: He's working with people like there's a wonderful lady named

1058
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 2: Ruth Wallace. She is an artist. She used to do

1059
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 2: kind of like comedy songs. So like, uh, there's some

1060
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:03,880
Speaker 2: of these great like tunes that they would talk about

1061
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 2: like homosexuality, or there's one song called boobs. But they

1062
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 2: are these like nineteen fifties songs talking about things that

1063
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 2: would be shocking. You know, you'd think that people didn't

1064
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 2: talk about this stuff in the fifties, but Sid wouldn't

1065
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 2: put his label on it, but he would press the records.

1066
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 2: So a lot of these other people, you know, you

1067
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 2: had to have working relationship with everybody because Sid had

1068
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 2: the full spectrum of the business around him. And because

1069
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:32,920
Speaker 2: of that, it allowed him to kind of have a

1070
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 2: unique relationship with the Leonard Chess, with with an Urtigan.

1071
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 2: But you know, over time in the nineteen sixties, he's

1072
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 2: not able to kind of move along with the new

1073
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 2: independence that you see the next generation of guy Stacks Motown.

1074
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 2: He's not able to keep up with them because you know,

1075
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 2: he's an older generation. But that older generation of like

1076
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 2: you know, the dirty, grungy guys like Sam Phillips and

1077
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 2: those characters. They're all kind of similar, harassable personality types.

1078
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 2: And Sid's able to kind of navigate it because you know,

1079
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 2: he's a king of his own castle, as it were.

1080
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 3: Okay, what is the timeline both the order of the

1081
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 3: number of years he starts to make records in Dayton.

1082
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 3: How long after that does he build his own studio.

1083
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 3: How long after that does he buy his own pressing machines?

1084
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 2: Ooh, good question. Let me see. So forty three starts

1085
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 2: the business. Then he does the Dayton thing. In forty three,

1086
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 2: I think I believe they only do that once, maybe twice.

1087
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 2: From there, they start recording with Bucky Herzog, and they

1088
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 2: do that, I believe, for a couple months, maybe a year,

1089
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 2: and by I want to say forty five, forty four,

1090
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 2: forty five, I think he's moving into his own office.

1091
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 2: You know, there's and then the he starts having to

1092
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 2: press his own records because during the war, there's slack

1093
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 2: is being is being used for the war efforts, so

1094
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 2: they aren't able to press records at a cheap cost

1095
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 2: any longer, so he runs. He finds the cost to

1096
01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 2: to be astronomical. They go up to Chicago to try

1097
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 2: to report the fact that there's bribery in this whole scheme,

1098
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 2: and finally coming back from Chicago, he decides that he's

1099
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 2: just going to make his own records. And that's happening

1100
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 2: between between forty Between forty four to forty seven is

1101
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:34,919
Speaker 2: when he's kind of maturing into doing his own thing.

1102
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 3: Where does he get the money to buy these machines

1103
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 3: and where does he buy him? And how many does

1104
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 3: he buy? And how many records get he press on? Committally?

1105
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 2: Oh wow? So they first they first start out with

1106
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 2: one record press, and it's not a very good one.

1107
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 2: You know, they've got to find it from different broken parts.

1108
01:00:56,040 --> 01:01:00,840
Speaker 2: Like I said before, they are looking at the Society

1109
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:03,600
Speaker 2: for the Blind and they're getting these specs for these parts.

1110
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 2: They're trying to find broken parts here and there, and

1111
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 2: they kind of frankenstein some together. And the first ones

1112
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 2: I mean, as I said, that's why the records they

1113
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 2: first do are terrible. They have no idea what they're doing,

1114
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 2: but they've gotten in deep enough that they're able to

1115
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 2: bring in some people who do know what they're doing

1116
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 2: and eventually help them put like a proper business together.

1117
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 2: But at first they had one press and then they

1118
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 2: eventually I've got a picture in the film where they

1119
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:35,280
Speaker 2: have a full pressing facility, and I want to say

1120
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:37,600
Speaker 2: something to the order if off the top of my head,

1121
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 2: I think six to eight presses is what I was

1122
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:43,560
Speaker 2: able to see kind of their height. Maybe more, but

1123
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 2: I've only been able to see about six d eight presses.

1124
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 2: But you know, pressing records back in there, I mean

1125
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 2: it's like science, you know. In the research of this film,

1126
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:56,080
Speaker 2: I went and I actually put a how to make

1127
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:59,560
Speaker 2: a record film together that starts from the very beginning

1128
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 2: of the process of how you dip it in nickel caadium,

1129
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 2: and then how you did You did it with a nickel,

1130
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 2: then you dig in cadium, then you do You've got

1131
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 2: to deep, and you've got to make all these copies

1132
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,480
Speaker 2: of a copy of a copy in different metals before

1133
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 2: you're actually able to make a metal stamper, and then

1134
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 2: you start stamping them out. It is like a twelve

1135
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 2: sep process. I mean, how they figured this out is amazing,

1136
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 2: but it's not the world's easiest process. And it takes

1137
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 2: a couple of years before they're able to make it happen.

1138
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:29,360
Speaker 2: But Sid is able to figure it out. But the

1139
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 2: first couple of them are terrible. They're bad, They're not

1140
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 2: good at Okay.

1141
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 3: At the time, if you were an independent label, you

1142
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 3: used independent distributors were regional. But from what I can

1143
01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 3: tell from your film, Sid didn't use them. He distributed

1144
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 3: the records himself. Correct, Is that true?

1145
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 2: Yep. They had offices all around the country. It's why

1146
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:58,880
Speaker 2: you will find King records. A friend of mine sent

1147
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:02,919
Speaker 2: me King Records from Iowa. I think it's I can't

1148
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:05,400
Speaker 2: remember the number, but they had like twenty seven or

1149
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 2: something offices around the country.

1150
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 1: You know.

1151
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 2: They also even had a studio in New York. Henry

1152
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:14,919
Speaker 2: Glover was dispatched to New York City and a lot

1153
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 2: of the you know, Fever, they did a lot of

1154
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 2: the They recorded Fever in Cincinnati, but a lot of

1155
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 2: the prep work for Fever was done with Henry when

1156
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 2: he lived in New York City. They were they were

1157
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 2: a bigger, you know, right in America. It's hard for

1158
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:33,320
Speaker 2: us to kind of think about everything so regionally, but

1159
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 2: America used to be a lot more regional. You know,

1160
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 2: you had beer that you could only get in your region,

1161
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:40,880
Speaker 2: and you were very proud of it. You know, Guys

1162
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 2: from the South were all about the South. Guys from

1163
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:46,320
Speaker 2: the Midwest, you were all about your region of where

1164
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:50,760
Speaker 2: you came from. And businesses operated regionally and the ways

1165
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 2: that you worked to kind of national was was working

1166
01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 2: through different relationships. But everything was very you know, even

1167
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:00,120
Speaker 2: like wrestling, and we kind of take this for a

1168
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:03,760
Speaker 2: but wrestling was was regional operations. You know, a lot

1169
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 2: of things in America were very regional based. That was

1170
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:11,840
Speaker 2: the big game. So sid was able to expand outside

1171
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 2: of that was really impressive because it allowed him to

1172
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 2: kind of be in a place where the major players were.

1173
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:20,920
Speaker 2: But he was largely a regional player who could extend

1174
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,960
Speaker 2: into California, who could extend into the South, and he

1175
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 2: absorbed companies that kind of already had RESO. Again, as

1176
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:31,040
Speaker 2: I said, Federal before was based in the South. Deluxe

1177
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 2: was also big. He had these companies who were based

1178
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:36,640
Speaker 2: in Florida. That's how we picked up Hank Ballard. For example.

1179
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 2: You had artists there were that he get from the

1180
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 2: New York area, artists from different parts of the Midwest,

1181
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 2: and that's what really gave him the impetus to pick

1182
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 2: up different record labels because it gave him much more

1183
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 2: regional advantages. And that's what he was able to do

1184
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:55,919
Speaker 2: to kind of plug all these networks together into one

1185
01:04:56,120 --> 01:05:04,240
Speaker 2: large network for himself for King Records.

1186
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 3: Did he know anything about music?

1187
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:13,479
Speaker 2: Oh, my lord, that's a great question, uh, Philip Paul,

1188
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:14,920
Speaker 2: who was one of the studio there was a lot

1189
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 2: of these studio drummers, Philip Paul, Henry Glover. A lot

1190
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:21,560
Speaker 2: of the people talk about the fact that Sid was

1191
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 2: a drummer, you know, and he or a purported drummer,

1192
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:28,840
Speaker 2: and he believed that he was a musician, and he

1193
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:31,880
Speaker 2: believed he had the ear. A lot of people talk

1194
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:33,800
Speaker 2: about the fact that he didn't really have the ear,

1195
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 2: but he knew record business and he had Henry Glover

1196
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:39,040
Speaker 2: was kind of the guy that knew the music. So

1197
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:43,280
Speaker 2: that's why that relation relationship between those two gentlemen was

1198
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,520
Speaker 2: important because he needed somebody who knew the music. But

1199
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:50,360
Speaker 2: Sid knew what sold and he had the business instincts

1200
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:53,600
Speaker 2: to figure that out. Henry knew what was good and

1201
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:55,560
Speaker 2: what people wanted, and where the market was and where

1202
01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:59,000
Speaker 2: it was going, and you see this with Henry because

1203
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 2: Henry Glover, you know, Levon helm and the band go

1204
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:05,439
Speaker 2: on to work with him. Henry Glover ends up being

1205
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 2: one of the most important background characters in American rock

1206
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:11,960
Speaker 2: and roll. But that was the guy you know when

1207
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:14,520
Speaker 2: we look, you know, when you're looking for the hidden

1208
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 2: figure of the African American. We always talk about how

1209
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:19,880
Speaker 2: African Americans created rock and roll and whether it's this

1210
01:06:20,040 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 2: or that. Henry Glover is really the African American. He's

1211
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:27,840
Speaker 2: kind of the Lewis Latimer who was the assistant that

1212
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 2: worked with Edison. He's kind of like the similar type

1213
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:33,680
Speaker 2: of hidden figure character in American music. He's the guy

1214
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:38,200
Speaker 2: who takes kind of that generational jump from jump blues.

1215
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:41,439
Speaker 2: The previous generation had the blues, the next generation's coming

1216
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 2: up with something a little grungier, a little dirtier. Henry's

1217
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:48,360
Speaker 2: the one who kind of codifies the musical form, the

1218
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:52,000
Speaker 2: hand claps, where the sax solo goes in the form.

1219
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:54,560
Speaker 2: You know, it's very rock and roll. The style of

1220
01:06:54,680 --> 01:06:57,800
Speaker 2: music is very specific. You know, you've got your A section,

1221
01:06:57,840 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 2: you got your B section, then you go to that

1222
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 2: sax solo. You can do different things in that sax

1223
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:04,920
Speaker 2: solo depend like if your vocalist sings too low of

1224
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:08,320
Speaker 2: a key, you modulate, which is a trick that you

1225
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:10,480
Speaker 2: see in that R. E. S P E C T

1226
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:14,680
Speaker 2: with Aretha hit. That's a Henry Glover trick that still

1227
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:18,280
Speaker 2: exists in music. There's a lot of things that Henry

1228
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 2: kind of did that like codified what ended up being

1229
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 2: the definition of the style of music of rock and roll,

1230
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:27,800
Speaker 2: which is a difference from blues and jump blues and

1231
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 2: all these other styles. And he's able to codify it.

1232
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 2: And rock and roll is also and I'm sure you

1233
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 2: know this, Bob, isn't the guitar? A lot of people

1234
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:40,960
Speaker 2: at like highlight when we see the first distorted guitar,

1235
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:43,920
Speaker 2: which is with Rocket eighty eight. You know they're traveling

1236
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:47,120
Speaker 2: and going into this record session and somebody busts the

1237
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:51,160
Speaker 2: Gibson amp. I think it was a drum stand goes

1238
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 2: through it, and it's a to go into the recording

1239
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:56,160
Speaker 2: session and it's a distorted amp. And because of that,

1240
01:07:56,200 --> 01:07:58,600
Speaker 2: people point that to be rock and roll, or people

1241
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:01,200
Speaker 2: will say somebody like sister Rosetta Tharp is the start

1242
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:03,560
Speaker 2: of rock and roll because she played the guitar well,

1243
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:07,800
Speaker 2: ciner Rosetta Tharp is playing blues and the guitar doesn't

1244
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:10,080
Speaker 2: make it, and a distorted guitar doesn't make it rock

1245
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:14,880
Speaker 2: and roll. Interestingly enough, Henry Glover worked with sister Rosetta

1246
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 2: Tharp when she worked with Lucky Millinder. Lucky Millinder was

1247
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:21,960
Speaker 2: the artist that King Records brought on, and that's what

1248
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:27,000
Speaker 2: brought King Records into rock, into black music. But you

1249
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:30,320
Speaker 2: have Lucky Millinder and his band are doing these interesting things,

1250
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:34,120
Speaker 2: and from there, Henry Glover comes from that and says, Okay,

1251
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:36,320
Speaker 2: I'm going to start taking all of these things that

1252
01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:39,000
Speaker 2: we worked with. These artists we worked with bull Muse Jackson,

1253
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:41,439
Speaker 2: we worked and he starts doing these experiments with the

1254
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:44,320
Speaker 2: Delmore Brothers. So Blue Stay Away for Me is one

1255
01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:46,720
Speaker 2: of the songs that's a contender for the first rock

1256
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:50,880
Speaker 2: and roll song, as is Good rockin Tonight, which we

1257
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:53,120
Speaker 2: say in the film is the first one, because you

1258
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:56,800
Speaker 2: really see the full formal, you know, with Blue Stay

1259
01:08:56,840 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 2: Away from Me, we see Henry Glover takes a blue

1260
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:04,519
Speaker 2: whose like Basseline, applies it into a country song and

1261
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:07,599
Speaker 2: it's great, it's slamming, it sounds so good. You take

1262
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:11,240
Speaker 2: him take that idea even further with Good Rocking Tonight.

1263
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:13,320
Speaker 2: You see the original version and you see how he

1264
01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:15,679
Speaker 2: changes it up and all these details that he adds

1265
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:19,280
Speaker 2: to it codifies the style of rock and roll. And

1266
01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:22,800
Speaker 2: from there you see Sun Records take it and then

1267
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:26,479
Speaker 2: advertise it to kids, the emerging teenage market, and that

1268
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:29,559
Speaker 2: explodes a rock and roll. But at every point in

1269
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:32,920
Speaker 2: time and anything that you find to tie back to

1270
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 2: the early points of rock and roll, it really ties

1271
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:39,000
Speaker 2: back to Henry Glover. And it's like, whether it's through

1272
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:42,160
Speaker 2: Sister Rosetta Tharp and the work with Lucky Millinder, or

1273
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:46,120
Speaker 2: whether it's going forward with American rock and roll with

1274
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:49,439
Speaker 2: Levon Helm and the band and all the other actu

1275
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:52,920
Speaker 2: that he works with. It's not Sid Nathan, but it's

1276
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:56,519
Speaker 2: actually Henry Glover is the one who really starts like

1277
01:09:56,880 --> 01:09:59,960
Speaker 2: American music in this direction, and he's the ear that's

1278
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:03,040
Speaker 2: said Nathan depends on to move the music forward.

1279
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:09,240
Speaker 3: Okay, I wrote about your film and I started getting

1280
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:13,439
Speaker 3: email from all these people linking me to YouTube and

1281
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:17,240
Speaker 3: the speeches Sid made. Yeah, can you speak to that?

1282
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:22,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. So we use those recordings in the film and

1283
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:29,920
Speaker 2: they are some of my favorite recordings. Ever, Sid is hilarious,

1284
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:33,120
Speaker 2: so he would come in. You know, it's a recording company.

1285
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:35,400
Speaker 2: So like from time to time they grab a microphone

1286
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:38,719
Speaker 2: and they recorded. So one of them, Sid goes to Europe,

1287
01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:41,600
Speaker 2: and Sid decides he comes back to Europe at the

1288
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:44,720
Speaker 2: team meeting with all the producers and he's going to

1289
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:47,640
Speaker 2: talk about his trip. So he talks about all the

1290
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:51,559
Speaker 2: things that he sees, and I recommend people going and

1291
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:55,280
Speaker 2: checking them out because it really shows Sid's personality. He

1292
01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:59,760
Speaker 2: talks about how how he thought he was cheap, but

1293
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:02,240
Speaker 2: then he sees these like European people and some of

1294
01:11:02,280 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 2: them are even cheaper than he was. And he's coming

1295
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:07,559
Speaker 2: up with all these jokes and talking about like all

1296
01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:09,839
Speaker 2: of the things that he's seeing and all the places

1297
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:12,040
Speaker 2: that he went and different acts that he checked out

1298
01:11:12,080 --> 01:11:15,439
Speaker 2: and was considering signing, actually one of them being the

1299
01:11:15,479 --> 01:11:18,320
Speaker 2: Beatles that he did not sign on that trip. Funny enough,

1300
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:22,160
Speaker 2: and then he has others where he's talking about so

1301
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 2: like they come back. He tells the story in one

1302
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:28,120
Speaker 2: of these recordings about Wennoni Harris. We actually didn't put

1303
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:33,080
Speaker 2: this in the film, but he so they are they

1304
01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:35,000
Speaker 2: have to find that he's trying to like have these

1305
01:11:35,080 --> 01:11:38,120
Speaker 2: marathon sessions because again they can't record. You know they're

1306
01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:39,840
Speaker 2: about to they know everybody's going to go on strike.

1307
01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:42,599
Speaker 2: He needs to pull in an artist. They find Wenoni Harris.

1308
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:44,760
Speaker 2: He's performing somewhere in New York. So they go up

1309
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:47,280
Speaker 2: there and they knock on the door in the hotel.

1310
01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:52,560
Speaker 2: Now Wenoni is having a great time. Sid describes the

1311
01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:55,479
Speaker 2: story as he goes in and they knock on the

1312
01:11:55,479 --> 01:12:01,760
Speaker 2: door and Winoni's in there with three other women and

1313
01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:07,839
Speaker 2: they're entertaining themselves. Sid interrupts this session to talk business.

1314
01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:09,880
Speaker 2: One of the women has a problem with this is

1315
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 2: what's going on. Wenoni kicks her out, So now he's

1316
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:15,280
Speaker 2: with these two. He's now got Weinoni and these two ladies.

1317
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:18,879
Speaker 2: And the point that Sid likes to recount to everyone

1318
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:21,280
Speaker 2: is that they're coming in there and they have to

1319
01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:25,040
Speaker 2: do their negotiations for the business. And Menoni is there.

1320
01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:28,760
Speaker 2: He's shirtless and the only thing that he's wearing is

1321
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:33,160
Speaker 2: his underwear with pink hearts on them. And he makes

1322
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:36,120
Speaker 2: a big deal to be like, and olid were these

1323
01:12:36,280 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 2: pink on the head pink hearts on them? Can you

1324
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:41,240
Speaker 2: believe it? And he reaches over to one of the

1325
01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:44,280
Speaker 2: producers and like one of the producers like yes, Sid,

1326
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:46,120
Speaker 2: like because one of the guys was like no way,

1327
01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:48,720
Speaker 2: and like he's like tell him, tell him, and the

1328
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:52,080
Speaker 2: guy's like, yes, this actually happened. He came in, we

1329
01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:54,040
Speaker 2: had a talk. They were definitely having a good time

1330
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:56,360
Speaker 2: with these ladies. We had to work out the deal.

1331
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:59,200
Speaker 2: We did the deal in his underwear. We get up,

1332
01:12:59,280 --> 01:13:02,320
Speaker 2: we leave, and he continues about his business that he

1333
01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:05,840
Speaker 2: was doing before we left, and that is how they

1334
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:08,880
Speaker 2: signed Menony Harris, and he records us and he tells

1335
01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:10,880
Speaker 2: the story like right when they come back. So he

1336
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:14,879
Speaker 2: has all these epic stories that they that they collect.

1337
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:17,759
Speaker 2: There's all these other ones too, like sit in the session.

1338
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:21,719
Speaker 2: You can hear Like saying there's an engineer who's talking

1339
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:25,080
Speaker 2: back and forth between James Brown and Sid and you'll

1340
01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:29,080
Speaker 2: hear Sid say something like, mister Nathan would like you to,

1341
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:31,320
Speaker 2: you know, sorry, if you guys can tighten it up

1342
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:32,720
Speaker 2: a little bit or do this or something it and

1343
01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 2: then you'll hear James be like, what what are you

1344
01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:36,680
Speaker 2: talking about? You want me to tighten up talk? And

1345
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:38,920
Speaker 2: you see this back and forth with this engineer having

1346
01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:42,240
Speaker 2: to be the intermediary of these guys arguing. But yeah,

1347
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:44,920
Speaker 2: he's got all these recording of his voice, and he's

1348
01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:48,040
Speaker 2: got this crazy vote atal like this, and he's big,

1349
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:52,320
Speaker 2: and it's like he's braggadocious and he's constantly yelling and

1350
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:55,240
Speaker 2: so he's got a cigar in his mouth and he's hilarious.

1351
01:13:55,240 --> 01:13:57,000
Speaker 2: But if anybody ever gets a chance, and if you've

1352
01:13:57,000 --> 01:14:01,160
Speaker 2: got time to kill, go listen to these recordings. He's

1353
01:14:01,160 --> 01:14:03,400
Speaker 2: got him on a disc. They're on a disc set,

1354
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:05,799
Speaker 2: a compilation disc set that you can find on Amazon.

1355
01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:08,120
Speaker 2: It's called The Complete King and it's got all those

1356
01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:09,040
Speaker 2: recordings on them.

1357
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:15,080
Speaker 3: Okay, you go through the arc of James Brown's career

1358
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:21,519
Speaker 3: in Tenury King. James Brown an American icon. But he

1359
01:14:21,640 --> 01:14:25,600
Speaker 3: did spend time in jail. Was that an anomaly? Was

1360
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:29,479
Speaker 3: that driving while black? Or was James hothead a little

1361
01:14:29,560 --> 01:14:30,519
Speaker 3: crazy himself?

1362
01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:35,680
Speaker 2: Ooh, that's a really great question. So the first thing

1363
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:37,040
Speaker 2: that I think that you have to start with in

1364
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:39,800
Speaker 2: understanding James Brown is that he is a product of

1365
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:42,920
Speaker 2: his environment. And his environment was he was born, he

1366
01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:46,120
Speaker 2: was raising a whorehouse. You know, his mother abandoned him

1367
01:14:46,439 --> 01:14:48,200
Speaker 2: at a very early age and he went to live

1368
01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:51,960
Speaker 2: with an aunt and the aunt was, you know, a

1369
01:14:51,960 --> 01:14:54,680
Speaker 2: tough environment and he had to shine shoes, you know,

1370
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:56,680
Speaker 2: like he had to earn his keep while living in

1371
01:14:56,720 --> 01:14:59,120
Speaker 2: this environment from a very young age, so he had

1372
01:14:59,160 --> 01:15:01,200
Speaker 2: a shine shoe. He learned how to be an entertainer,

1373
01:15:01,280 --> 01:15:02,760
Speaker 2: He learned how to be a hustler, he learned how

1374
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:06,800
Speaker 2: to work hard. But it creates a personality type that

1375
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:10,439
Speaker 2: is that is very, very troubled and has a very

1376
01:15:10,479 --> 01:15:13,519
Speaker 2: different way of looking at the world. You know, we

1377
01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:18,080
Speaker 2: see this. You know, Richard Pryor also came from similar backgrounds.

1378
01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:20,800
Speaker 2: You know, he was raised in a whorehouse and you know,

1379
01:15:21,120 --> 01:15:24,880
Speaker 2: it leaves a traumatic scar on them that you see

1380
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:28,680
Speaker 2: through their artistry. There brilliant artists who learn how to

1381
01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:30,800
Speaker 2: perform at a very you know, it's intrinsic to them,

1382
01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:33,840
Speaker 2: but they have a lot of issues and very early

1383
01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:36,519
Speaker 2: you know, he had issues with the law very early on.

1384
01:15:36,960 --> 01:15:41,439
Speaker 2: And Bobby Byrd's family, you know, James is he's a

1385
01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:47,120
Speaker 2: tremendous athlete. He's he's a golden glove boxer, which I

1386
01:15:47,240 --> 01:15:48,960
Speaker 2: believe I was able to find proof that he was

1387
01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:52,120
Speaker 2: a golden but he definitely was a boxer, but he

1388
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:57,439
Speaker 2: was in jail. He played baseball, and the church had

1389
01:15:57,479 --> 01:16:00,000
Speaker 2: an arrangement with kind of like trying to help these

1390
01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:04,400
Speaker 2: young people and the Bird family. Bobby Bird meets James

1391
01:16:04,400 --> 01:16:06,840
Speaker 2: Brown this way, and they're able to kind of get

1392
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:09,040
Speaker 2: him to turn his energy towards music and they're able

1393
01:16:09,040 --> 01:16:12,400
Speaker 2: to sponsor him and get him out of prison. So

1394
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:16,200
Speaker 2: James really starts, you know, music gives him this outlet

1395
01:16:16,360 --> 01:16:21,160
Speaker 2: and he really builds this discipline into this band Bobby Bird,

1396
01:16:21,240 --> 01:16:24,480
Speaker 2: and Bobby Bird's family gives him this like this spiritual

1397
01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:27,800
Speaker 2: discipline on top of like a real family. It's like

1398
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:30,400
Speaker 2: the first time he has this experience with a real

1399
01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:31,479
Speaker 2: black family.

1400
01:16:31,479 --> 01:16:31,640
Speaker 3: You know.

1401
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:34,080
Speaker 2: At a point, you know, James Mary's Bobby Bird's sister,

1402
01:16:35,439 --> 01:16:38,160
Speaker 2: which ends up being one of the reasons their relationship

1403
01:16:38,240 --> 01:16:42,920
Speaker 2: falls apart, one of many later, but you know, James's

1404
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:46,120
Speaker 2: this becomes their family. You know, the Birds really help

1405
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:50,160
Speaker 2: him out and give him direction, and from there James

1406
01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 2: is able to kind of hit his hit from there.

1407
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:54,639
Speaker 2: You know, James had a strong similar to Miles Davis,

1408
01:16:54,800 --> 01:16:58,240
Speaker 2: had a strong anti drug policy, so his guys didn't

1409
01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:01,760
Speaker 2: didn't do drugs, which is one of the issues that

1410
01:17:01,800 --> 01:17:03,760
Speaker 2: he had with Bootsy. I don't know if you've heard

1411
01:17:03,800 --> 01:17:06,520
Speaker 2: the story before. So one of the gigs when Bootsy's

1412
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:11,040
Speaker 2: banned comes on board, they are out messing with some

1413
01:17:11,080 --> 01:17:14,559
Speaker 2: liquid LSD on a gig and James comes outside and

1414
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:16,720
Speaker 2: he's like, what's that orange drink you guys messing with?

1415
01:17:17,280 --> 01:17:21,879
Speaker 2: And they not wanting to explain this. Knowing James's policy,

1416
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:25,080
Speaker 2: they decide to have him share some of this drink

1417
01:17:25,720 --> 01:17:29,479
Speaker 2: and James Brown goes out on the gig and you

1418
01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:31,599
Speaker 2: know the moment when the acid hits in the middle

1419
01:17:31,600 --> 01:17:36,719
Speaker 2: of the performance, and yeah, so James performs. The audience

1420
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:39,920
Speaker 2: is none the wiser because James Brown Hell or high

1421
01:17:39,960 --> 01:17:42,479
Speaker 2: Water will perform and put on a good show, but

1422
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:45,879
Speaker 2: comes off the bandstand and soon after that fires Bootsy

1423
01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:48,599
Speaker 2: and his boys because he had a strong anti drug policy,

1424
01:17:48,680 --> 01:17:52,280
Speaker 2: which starts to change in the eighties after James's sun

1425
01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:55,080
Speaker 2: passes away, that's when we start seeing the change. But

1426
01:17:55,280 --> 01:17:57,680
Speaker 2: you know, like just like Miles, you know, like he

1427
01:17:57,720 --> 01:18:01,240
Speaker 2: has a traumatic thing later which changed his viewpoint on drugs.

1428
01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:03,439
Speaker 2: But during the height of it, you know, he had

1429
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:08,439
Speaker 2: a real strong policing of his band, which, yeah, which

1430
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:11,160
Speaker 2: you see again after the Bird family gets involved in

1431
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:13,840
Speaker 2: He ass issues early with the law. He really kind

1432
01:18:13,840 --> 01:18:15,960
Speaker 2: of turns around. He turns his life around.

1433
01:18:18,080 --> 01:18:21,479
Speaker 3: Okay, you tell the story of Sid not wanting to

1434
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:26,120
Speaker 3: record James's live at the Apollo. James records it on

1435
01:18:26,160 --> 01:18:29,960
Speaker 3: his own mode. Sid puts it out. It's gigantic hit.

1436
01:18:31,640 --> 01:18:38,360
Speaker 3: Did James continue to be resentful about Sid's disbelief, not

1437
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:40,920
Speaker 3: believing in him, not paying that money? How did James

1438
01:18:40,960 --> 01:18:42,280
Speaker 3: feel about Sid after that?

1439
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:47,200
Speaker 2: Oh that's hilarious. So yeah, So they put out Please

1440
01:18:47,240 --> 01:18:50,840
Speaker 2: Please Please, and it's a medium hit. He the first

1441
01:18:50,840 --> 01:18:54,280
Speaker 2: thing that happens is that please Please Please. If the

1442
01:18:54,280 --> 01:18:58,280
Speaker 2: session is happening, Sid gets on the call and immediately

1443
01:18:58,320 --> 01:19:02,600
Speaker 2: fires Bats says, what is this shit? What have you

1444
01:19:02,680 --> 01:19:05,320
Speaker 2: brought me? All he says is please Please Please? One word?

1445
01:19:05,360 --> 01:19:09,599
Speaker 2: That's not a song. You are a fool. So Ralph

1446
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:11,160
Speaker 2: Bass says, hey, man, I know this is going to

1447
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:13,759
Speaker 2: be a hit. This was a hit when they recorded

1448
01:19:13,800 --> 01:19:17,040
Speaker 2: their first demo. How about we just release in Atlanta,

1449
01:19:17,080 --> 01:19:19,360
Speaker 2: Georgia and we see what happens. So there's a month

1450
01:19:19,400 --> 01:19:23,800
Speaker 2: long process where Hank Ballard is trying to convince Sid

1451
01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:26,519
Speaker 2: to release it. Otis Williams from Otis Williams in the

1452
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:28,800
Speaker 2: Charms here is trying to convince Sid to release it.

1453
01:19:29,080 --> 01:19:34,599
Speaker 2: Sid's not having it, and finally they're able to convince him,

1454
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:37,080
Speaker 2: and Ralph Bass says, releasing Atlanta, Let's see what happens,

1455
01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:38,920
Speaker 2: and then Sid says, you know what I'm gonna do.

1456
01:19:39,040 --> 01:19:41,559
Speaker 2: I'm gonna release it nationwide to show everybody what a

1457
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:44,640
Speaker 2: fool you are. So he releases it nationwide and it

1458
01:19:44,680 --> 01:19:47,880
Speaker 2: becomes a medium hit. It's huge in Atlanta, it's a

1459
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:51,320
Speaker 2: hit in It's a hit in these different markets. It's

1460
01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:53,840
Speaker 2: hitting New Orleans. I read through I went through every

1461
01:19:53,840 --> 01:19:57,280
Speaker 2: single page of Billboard magazine from nineteen forty to nineteen

1462
01:19:57,320 --> 01:20:00,200
Speaker 2: seventy two to look at all the different ads, look

1463
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:01,880
Speaker 2: at all the different stories. So I just kind of

1464
01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:05,000
Speaker 2: went page for page on everything, and you start seeing

1465
01:20:05,040 --> 01:20:07,439
Speaker 2: there's this section in Billboard where you would see like

1466
01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:10,679
Speaker 2: the different markets where things would hit, and please, please please,

1467
01:20:10,720 --> 01:20:12,960
Speaker 2: there's a huge it's a pretty good hit for several

1468
01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:16,120
Speaker 2: weeks in the black market, especially and especially in the South,

1469
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:19,479
Speaker 2: so it's enough to convince Sid, Okay, there's something here.

1470
01:20:19,960 --> 01:20:22,599
Speaker 2: But then they have about a six year period where

1471
01:20:22,880 --> 01:20:26,240
Speaker 2: Sid records, a whole bunch of stuff, and they all flop,

1472
01:20:26,400 --> 01:20:28,720
Speaker 2: every one of them. In fact, they put all of

1473
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:31,040
Speaker 2: them onto a forty five and I've listened to them.

1474
01:20:31,640 --> 01:20:33,600
Speaker 2: I collect I now collect records to go to this

1475
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:37,480
Speaker 2: and they're terrible. Every one of those songs are bad.

1476
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:42,840
Speaker 2: But then so Sid's getting ready to drop drop James

1477
01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:47,439
Speaker 2: Brown from his label, and James is able to convince

1478
01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:49,519
Speaker 2: him to give him one last try. If you give

1479
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:51,840
Speaker 2: me one last try, I'll pay for it myself. How

1480
01:20:51,840 --> 01:20:54,360
Speaker 2: about that. So Nathan's like, all right, if you pay

1481
01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:57,360
Speaker 2: for it yourself, you pay for the studio time. Fine. So,

1482
01:20:57,520 --> 01:20:59,880
Speaker 2: like you know, James works out the deal. This is

1483
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:02,240
Speaker 2: one of the reasons why he believes he's done with

1484
01:21:02,320 --> 01:21:06,880
Speaker 2: his record label, with his record requirements after because he

1485
01:21:07,400 --> 01:21:10,759
Speaker 2: renegotiates and they come out with try Me, and try

1486
01:21:10,840 --> 01:21:13,559
Speaker 2: Me becomes a hit, and that's really the first one.

1487
01:21:13,680 --> 01:21:17,439
Speaker 2: That really is when James Brown starts to become James Brown.

1488
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:20,920
Speaker 2: But he's got to convince Sid to get on board.

1489
01:21:21,479 --> 01:21:23,840
Speaker 2: And because he has to kind of negotiate his way

1490
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:27,760
Speaker 2: through it, James believes that he has more freedom than

1491
01:21:28,160 --> 01:21:31,680
Speaker 2: he otherwise would because he came into the deal with

1492
01:21:31,720 --> 01:21:35,120
Speaker 2: his own money, so is James is constantly looking for

1493
01:21:35,280 --> 01:21:38,519
Speaker 2: opportunities where he can put his own seed money to

1494
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:42,200
Speaker 2: start projects. And every single time that there would be

1495
01:21:42,280 --> 01:21:44,280
Speaker 2: any kind of issue, James would just kind of saying,

1496
01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:45,960
Speaker 2: how about if I put my own money into it.

1497
01:21:46,360 --> 01:21:48,880
Speaker 2: So finally, you know, Sid gets Winn into this, They

1498
01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:52,479
Speaker 2: work it into kind of the negotiations, and James slowly

1499
01:21:52,560 --> 01:21:56,040
Speaker 2: ekes out by basically you know, Sid not believing him

1500
01:21:55,760 --> 01:21:59,840
Speaker 2: in him or things falling apart. He negotiates a way

1501
01:22:00,080 --> 01:22:03,280
Speaker 2: to get more power in his record contracts and his business.

1502
01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:06,040
Speaker 2: And this is why we see James Brown go from

1503
01:22:06,040 --> 01:22:09,120
Speaker 2: the hardest working men in show business to the godfather

1504
01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:12,720
Speaker 2: of soul, because you don't get there without Ben Bart,

1505
01:22:12,920 --> 01:22:17,639
Speaker 2: who with these two principal actually these three principal Jewish men,

1506
01:22:18,000 --> 01:22:20,880
Speaker 2: Jack Pearl who was his lawyer, Ben Bart who ran

1507
01:22:22,000 --> 01:22:25,640
Speaker 2: Universal Attractions, his booking company, and then Sid Nathan who

1508
01:22:25,720 --> 01:22:29,040
Speaker 2: ran the record label. Because these men who were connected

1509
01:22:30,080 --> 01:22:32,640
Speaker 2: through their business connections and their community connections in the

1510
01:22:32,720 --> 01:22:36,799
Speaker 2: Jewish community, are able to kind of give James Brown

1511
01:22:37,080 --> 01:22:40,760
Speaker 2: the framework to kind of paint his own business, and

1512
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:43,000
Speaker 2: that empowers James to get to the next level.

1513
01:22:44,240 --> 01:22:48,680
Speaker 3: Okay, so how does it end for King Records?

1514
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:53,439
Speaker 2: So, as I mentioned, you know, Sid's got all these

1515
01:22:53,439 --> 01:22:56,240
Speaker 2: health issues, he's got heart, he's got bad art, he's

1516
01:22:56,280 --> 01:23:00,559
Speaker 2: got bad eyes and excuse me, everything to go along

1517
01:23:00,640 --> 01:23:03,320
Speaker 2: with that, and his health really starts to fade in

1518
01:23:03,360 --> 01:23:07,120
Speaker 2: the late sixties. But also in the sixties they start

1519
01:23:07,200 --> 01:23:12,080
Speaker 2: running into a payola scandal. And these are two things.

1520
01:23:12,080 --> 01:23:14,600
Speaker 2: So the first thing is Henry Glover, who's working in

1521
01:23:14,640 --> 01:23:19,639
Speaker 2: the company, runs he wants to expand to a multi

1522
01:23:19,680 --> 01:23:22,320
Speaker 2: track recording setup. So I think they were the two

1523
01:23:22,400 --> 01:23:24,240
Speaker 2: track and they want to move to a four track.

1524
01:23:25,439 --> 01:23:31,200
Speaker 2: At this point in time, Sid isn't convinced, and Sid

1525
01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:37,280
Speaker 2: relies on one of the other business people who doesn't

1526
01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:41,240
Speaker 2: have a music background to make the decision, and basically

1527
01:23:41,280 --> 01:23:44,880
Speaker 2: he doesn't side with Henry. He basically sides with this

1528
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:49,120
Speaker 2: other music executive who was associated with Ging Records, and

1529
01:23:49,360 --> 01:23:53,240
Speaker 2: they don't follow that. So Henry feels that they're a

1530
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:57,120
Speaker 2: little shorthanded and not being able to make these follow

1531
01:23:57,160 --> 01:23:59,640
Speaker 2: the new sound of the sixties in essence. And then

1532
01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:02,759
Speaker 2: on top of that, Sid also kind of threw Henry

1533
01:24:02,800 --> 01:24:06,120
Speaker 2: under the bus for the payola stuff, you Knowola, the

1534
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:11,640
Speaker 2: Payola scandal starts happening, and King isn't really what's the

1535
01:24:11,680 --> 01:24:15,160
Speaker 2: word King is a part of it. King's affected by this,

1536
01:24:15,880 --> 01:24:19,280
Speaker 2: and Henry kind of kind of gets thrown under the bus.

1537
01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:21,000
Speaker 2: He feels kind of gets thrown under the bus because

1538
01:24:21,000 --> 01:24:25,200
Speaker 2: of this. So Henry leaves the company and so the

1539
01:24:25,360 --> 01:24:29,720
Speaker 2: artistic direction in the company isn't as progressive. They're not

1540
01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:33,200
Speaker 2: able to jump into the sixties. You know, Little Willie

1541
01:24:33,280 --> 01:24:37,600
Speaker 2: John starts having problems, you know, he starts having drinking problems,

1542
01:24:37,720 --> 01:24:39,760
Speaker 2: and the director's cut of the film goes through this.

1543
01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:41,479
Speaker 2: The PBS we had to pull some of this out,

1544
01:24:41,920 --> 01:24:44,160
Speaker 2: but you start seeing problems in the sixties with Little

1545
01:24:44,160 --> 01:24:46,080
Speaker 2: Willie John. So he was going to be there for

1546
01:24:46,320 --> 01:24:50,120
Speaker 2: Frank Sinatra. Before Little Willie John goes to jail, he

1547
01:24:50,160 --> 01:24:53,080
Speaker 2: records this record with Capital that's amazing. I think it's

1548
01:24:53,080 --> 01:24:56,240
Speaker 2: called nineteen sixty eight or something like that. Highly check

1549
01:24:56,720 --> 01:24:59,280
Speaker 2: people checking it out. But you see the direction that

1550
01:24:59,400 --> 01:25:01,879
Speaker 2: King would have eventually gone with him, and it's amazing,

1551
01:25:01,960 --> 01:25:05,680
Speaker 2: luscious strings and beautiful all that type of stuff. You know,

1552
01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:08,879
Speaker 2: they couldn't go into that space. They didn't have enough tracks.

1553
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:11,439
Speaker 2: Henry wasn't there to kind of push that any longer,

1554
01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:15,639
Speaker 2: and they kind of become kind of the old man's label,

1555
01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:20,240
Speaker 2: and they don't really recover well from Paolan. They limped

1556
01:25:20,280 --> 01:25:23,320
Speaker 2: their way through the sixties, but James Brown is able

1557
01:25:23,360 --> 01:25:24,240
Speaker 2: to keep them going.

1558
01:25:24,960 --> 01:25:26,000
Speaker 3: So in the late.

1559
01:25:25,800 --> 01:25:29,120
Speaker 2: Sixties Sid starts getting sicker and sicker and sicker, and

1560
01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:34,400
Speaker 2: ultimately he passes away. And when he passes away, there

1561
01:25:34,439 --> 01:25:39,360
Speaker 2: wasn't anybody left to run the company. There wasn't anybody

1562
01:25:39,360 --> 01:25:41,439
Speaker 2: who's trained. You know, seymour Stein at this point in

1563
01:25:41,439 --> 01:25:44,920
Speaker 2: time is in New York. He is in the last

1564
01:25:44,960 --> 01:25:48,519
Speaker 2: several years of his life. He allowed Sid allows Seymour

1565
01:25:48,560 --> 01:25:52,000
Speaker 2: to set up shop in the New York studios. So

1566
01:25:52,120 --> 01:25:56,000
Speaker 2: Seymour is actually getting because he has free rent, is

1567
01:25:56,040 --> 01:25:59,320
Speaker 2: able now to start his career. So Seymour would have

1568
01:25:59,360 --> 01:26:01,760
Speaker 2: actually been the perfect person to pass that on to.

1569
01:26:02,680 --> 01:26:05,320
Speaker 2: But there were some of these other people that were

1570
01:26:05,360 --> 01:26:09,439
Speaker 2: working around King Records that didn't really know what they

1571
01:26:09,439 --> 01:26:12,439
Speaker 2: were doing. And Sid kind of trusted a lot of

1572
01:26:12,479 --> 01:26:16,600
Speaker 2: these figures who didn't really understand the music business, but

1573
01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:18,960
Speaker 2: they had a lot of bravado and they got into

1574
01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:21,920
Speaker 2: his face about stuff. So they kind of had they

1575
01:26:22,520 --> 01:26:25,120
Speaker 2: you know, they kind of spoke to the to the

1576
01:26:25,120 --> 01:26:28,439
Speaker 2: guy's guy type of attitude that Sid had. So Sid

1577
01:26:28,520 --> 01:26:30,519
Speaker 2: ended up trusting some of these people that didn't know

1578
01:26:30,560 --> 01:26:33,080
Speaker 2: what they were doing, and they ran the business into

1579
01:26:33,120 --> 01:26:39,639
Speaker 2: the ground, and very quickly they merged with They start

1580
01:26:39,720 --> 01:26:42,120
Speaker 2: looking for options to get out of the business. Basically,

1581
01:26:42,200 --> 01:26:44,840
Speaker 2: so Henry Glover comes back to kind of help the

1582
01:26:44,880 --> 01:26:48,439
Speaker 2: business shut down. In essence, they sell to start a

1583
01:26:48,560 --> 01:26:52,840
Speaker 2: Records in Nashville, which is a record label that is

1584
01:26:53,560 --> 01:26:56,160
Speaker 2: basically it's kind of the same record label, but in

1585
01:26:56,240 --> 01:27:00,640
Speaker 2: Nashville they start the same way. They have the same Actually,

1586
01:27:00,760 --> 01:27:03,759
Speaker 2: a lot of the former King artists moved the Country artists,

1587
01:27:03,960 --> 01:27:06,599
Speaker 2: they moved to Star Day, So there's a relationship between

1588
01:27:06,640 --> 01:27:09,640
Speaker 2: the two labels, and the merger was kind of a

1589
01:27:09,760 --> 01:27:13,200
Speaker 2: natural of those guys, so King and start a merge.

1590
01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:17,719
Speaker 2: James Brown stays on through this. James Brown now has

1591
01:27:17,840 --> 01:27:21,960
Speaker 2: full control because in sixty eight Sid dies, as does

1592
01:27:22,080 --> 01:27:25,240
Speaker 2: Ben Bart at this time, so James is now free.

1593
01:27:25,360 --> 01:27:27,799
Speaker 2: He now is running he's booking side of his business.

1594
01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:30,559
Speaker 2: He's running the record label side of this business. Because

1595
01:27:30,560 --> 01:27:34,600
Speaker 2: nobody can stop James any longer. So this is like

1596
01:27:34,680 --> 01:27:39,719
Speaker 2: James's best year. This is when you start getting say loud,

1597
01:27:39,720 --> 01:27:41,559
Speaker 2: I'm Black and I'm proud, you start getting all these

1598
01:27:41,600 --> 01:27:44,320
Speaker 2: things in like the late sixties early seventies that are

1599
01:27:44,320 --> 01:27:49,840
Speaker 2: really progressive. James Brown super bad, all these tunes and

1600
01:27:52,320 --> 01:27:56,320
Speaker 2: a lot of these records. Yeah, they start the business.

1601
01:27:56,360 --> 01:27:58,479
Speaker 2: So the business basically figures out that they need to

1602
01:27:58,560 --> 01:28:01,360
Speaker 2: sell James Brown's track because he's the only thing that

1603
01:28:01,400 --> 01:28:04,639
Speaker 2: has value. So they sell it to Polodor and it's

1604
01:28:04,720 --> 01:28:10,040
Speaker 2: a multimillion dollar deal. James goes to Polydor within two years.

1605
01:28:10,040 --> 01:28:13,360
Speaker 2: He hates Polydor. The Germans want to make everything the same.

1606
01:28:13,560 --> 01:28:17,040
Speaker 2: They don't want they want everything process driven. They don't

1607
01:28:17,120 --> 01:28:19,519
Speaker 2: let James do whatever he wants. You know, he no

1608
01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:23,680
Speaker 2: longer has that freedom of king. King then sells to Starday.

1609
01:28:23,880 --> 01:28:28,479
Speaker 2: They sell everything in Cincinnati. They take whatever they find

1610
01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:32,120
Speaker 2: valuable in the process, they take down to Nashville. Some

1611
01:28:32,160 --> 01:28:35,960
Speaker 2: of the pressing pressing stuff goes down to Nashville. Starday

1612
01:28:36,000 --> 01:28:38,360
Speaker 2: goes out of business the following year because they again

1613
01:28:38,439 --> 01:28:40,960
Speaker 2: were also in a similar situation and they were also

1614
01:28:41,040 --> 01:28:43,040
Speaker 2: listening to the same idiot that Sid was listening to.

1615
01:28:43,720 --> 01:28:48,880
Speaker 2: So that business falls apart and the business basically gets split.

1616
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:51,799
Speaker 2: They sell the publishing aspect of the business to liber

1617
01:28:51,840 --> 01:28:56,679
Speaker 2: and Stoler and that starts their licensing business. Liber and Stoller.

1618
01:28:56,720 --> 01:28:58,559
Speaker 2: Their business goes on to be one of the biggest

1619
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:04,280
Speaker 2: licensing companies, which still exists today. And then they sold

1620
01:29:04,360 --> 01:29:07,040
Speaker 2: the mechanical rights to a company called Gusto, which is

1621
01:29:07,080 --> 01:29:13,400
Speaker 2: also still in Nashville. And yeah, so a lot of

1622
01:29:12,439 --> 01:29:16,240
Speaker 2: the mechanical rights go in one direction and the publishing

1623
01:29:16,320 --> 01:29:18,519
Speaker 2: rights go in another. They get split up. They basically

1624
01:29:18,560 --> 01:29:23,000
Speaker 2: sell the business. You have parts of the business still exist.

1625
01:29:23,120 --> 01:29:26,880
Speaker 2: So for example, the lathe that is in Jack White's

1626
01:29:27,200 --> 01:29:29,280
Speaker 2: Blue Room Jack White has got inducted into the National

1627
01:29:29,320 --> 01:29:33,120
Speaker 2: Hall of Fame, big shout out. The lathe that is

1628
01:29:33,320 --> 01:29:38,320
Speaker 2: in the Third Man Records room is the lathe from

1629
01:29:38,400 --> 01:29:43,120
Speaker 2: King Records. They were able to get the same laid

1630
01:29:43,160 --> 01:29:46,000
Speaker 2: the King Records. It went to Starday and that's how

1631
01:29:46,040 --> 01:29:48,720
Speaker 2: it got to Nashville, the Oregon. I traced down some

1632
01:29:48,760 --> 01:29:50,320
Speaker 2: of the parts. I was able to find some of it.

1633
01:29:50,720 --> 01:29:52,599
Speaker 2: There are some of the record presses. There's a couple

1634
01:29:52,640 --> 01:29:56,080
Speaker 2: of them that ended up in Jamaica, which is super interesting.

1635
01:29:56,479 --> 01:29:58,920
Speaker 2: A lot of them covered like early SKA, so like

1636
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:02,360
Speaker 2: the King Records, like presses ended up going on to

1637
01:30:02,439 --> 01:30:06,840
Speaker 2: press life early Jamaican music. But you see the parts

1638
01:30:06,880 --> 01:30:09,240
Speaker 2: of King like it gets split up and it ends

1639
01:30:09,280 --> 01:30:14,599
Speaker 2: up actually continuing to exist in modern American music. It

1640
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:19,320
Speaker 2: continues to be the it's parts ends up being fueling

1641
01:30:19,360 --> 01:30:21,280
Speaker 2: different parts of music. You start sing the birth of

1642
01:30:21,360 --> 01:30:23,960
Speaker 2: hip hop when people start scratching their records. The next

1643
01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:27,280
Speaker 2: generation starts doing that, and you kind of just see

1644
01:30:27,280 --> 01:30:29,960
Speaker 2: its influence continue to kind of continue. But the business

1645
01:30:29,960 --> 01:30:33,639
Speaker 2: itself basically comes to an end soon after Sid's death.

1646
01:30:42,040 --> 01:30:43,120
Speaker 3: So how'd you learn all this?

1647
01:30:43,760 --> 01:30:50,360
Speaker 2: Cud? I am an obsessive person, so I so this

1648
01:30:50,400 --> 01:30:53,479
Speaker 2: isn't the first record label where I've dug into listening

1649
01:30:53,520 --> 01:30:56,599
Speaker 2: to everything and learning all about their history. I've got

1650
01:30:56,640 --> 01:31:00,879
Speaker 2: a similar relationship with ECM Records, for example. I'm a drummer,

1651
01:31:01,760 --> 01:31:05,839
Speaker 2: so I've listened to every Jack Djionnette record, for example,

1652
01:31:06,040 --> 01:31:10,439
Speaker 2: every Miles Davis record, every Tony Williams record, every Elvin Jones,

1653
01:31:10,479 --> 01:31:13,000
Speaker 2: like every one of these guys. I've gone into a

1654
01:31:13,040 --> 01:31:16,920
Speaker 2: deep dive of like jazz labels, where I listened to

1655
01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:21,519
Speaker 2: everything and I do obsessions about every record and all

1656
01:31:21,520 --> 01:31:23,879
Speaker 2: the things that they that were done with these records

1657
01:31:23,880 --> 01:31:27,360
Speaker 2: and record labels, so it was kind of a natural

1658
01:31:27,439 --> 01:31:31,839
Speaker 2: thing for me. I had a great teacher. I studied

1659
01:31:31,880 --> 01:31:34,519
Speaker 2: with a guy who teaches at Berkeley School of Music,

1660
01:31:35,000 --> 01:31:38,320
Speaker 2: Ian Frohman, and he got me really into this idea.

1661
01:31:38,360 --> 01:31:42,759
Speaker 2: And the jazz saxophonist who I worked with, J D. Allen,

1662
01:31:42,840 --> 01:31:45,920
Speaker 2: they got me really into this idea of digging into

1663
01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:50,240
Speaker 2: records and digging into learning everything, like you learn about

1664
01:31:50,240 --> 01:31:52,880
Speaker 2: what they had for breakfast before they made this record.

1665
01:31:53,760 --> 01:31:55,880
Speaker 2: So I think very early in my twenties, the first

1666
01:31:55,920 --> 01:31:58,280
Speaker 2: one was kind of Blue that I got super into,

1667
01:32:00,800 --> 01:32:04,760
Speaker 2: and from that that led me into other records and

1668
01:32:04,760 --> 01:32:08,200
Speaker 2: more and more records and more like eras of music.

1669
01:32:09,360 --> 01:32:14,680
Speaker 2: So from everything from the roots and Biangelo and questlove

1670
01:32:15,000 --> 01:32:19,000
Speaker 2: in like the early two thousands to like eighties funk

1671
01:32:19,120 --> 01:32:25,320
Speaker 2: in like Dayton, Ohio, to Cincinnati King records to ECM

1672
01:32:25,400 --> 01:32:29,400
Speaker 2: records in Germany and jazz records. All of these things

1673
01:32:29,439 --> 01:32:31,880
Speaker 2: are things that drive me and fuel me to make

1674
01:32:31,920 --> 01:32:34,599
Speaker 2: me a better music producer, to make me a better musician.

1675
01:32:35,920 --> 01:32:37,760
Speaker 2: That it is kind of where I derived, you know,

1676
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:40,000
Speaker 2: I started this record, I started this film to learn

1677
01:32:40,000 --> 01:32:42,200
Speaker 2: how to be a better music producer, how to make

1678
01:32:42,240 --> 01:32:45,559
Speaker 2: better records, and also how to advise people on making

1679
01:32:45,600 --> 01:32:50,880
Speaker 2: better records. And from the process of doing this, I

1680
01:32:51,000 --> 01:32:53,320
Speaker 2: ended up having all this information about that fit into

1681
01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:55,840
Speaker 2: a documentary, but the real purpose was to be a

1682
01:32:55,840 --> 01:32:59,439
Speaker 2: better music maker, better music creator. And I've been fortunate

1683
01:32:59,520 --> 01:33:01,160
Speaker 2: enough to work with some of the best artists and

1684
01:33:01,200 --> 01:33:04,560
Speaker 2: musicians in the world in like either consulting capacity or

1685
01:33:04,600 --> 01:33:09,120
Speaker 2: in a playing capacity. But you know, hopefully I'm hoping

1686
01:33:09,160 --> 01:33:11,200
Speaker 2: to be able to tell more of these stories about

1687
01:33:11,560 --> 01:33:13,720
Speaker 2: all of this information about music that I've learned. I

1688
01:33:13,720 --> 01:33:17,000
Speaker 2: have lots and lots like you can tell, I have

1689
01:33:17,120 --> 01:33:20,600
Speaker 2: a lot of information about very obscure record labels and

1690
01:33:20,680 --> 01:33:23,040
Speaker 2: musicians that I'd like to share and find ways to

1691
01:33:23,040 --> 01:33:27,280
Speaker 2: share those stories, especially more modern stories and black Black

1692
01:33:27,280 --> 01:33:32,679
Speaker 2: American music, and then also different expirations as a musician myself.

1693
01:33:32,720 --> 01:33:35,000
Speaker 2: You know, I'm hoping be able to take this film

1694
01:33:35,000 --> 01:33:37,080
Speaker 2: and a lot of these like information I have from

1695
01:33:37,080 --> 01:33:40,439
Speaker 2: this be able to apply it to records and all

1696
01:33:40,479 --> 01:33:43,240
Speaker 2: the way from how you you know, I learned all

1697
01:33:43,280 --> 01:33:45,680
Speaker 2: about the processes that they used the King Records, from

1698
01:33:45,720 --> 01:33:50,960
Speaker 2: micing techniques to using soul feedge to help vocalists come

1699
01:33:51,080 --> 01:33:54,360
Speaker 2: up with different parts and harmony parts. Henry Glover, there's

1700
01:33:54,360 --> 01:33:57,600
Speaker 2: all these recordings of him talking about all of this

1701
01:33:57,680 --> 01:33:59,599
Speaker 2: stuff that they did and how they made records back

1702
01:33:59,640 --> 01:34:02,240
Speaker 2: in the day, man, and all that stuff still applies.

1703
01:34:02,360 --> 01:34:04,880
Speaker 2: You know, these old school guys in the fifties the

1704
01:34:04,880 --> 01:34:08,400
Speaker 2: fifties really figured out American music, and the way they

1705
01:34:08,439 --> 01:34:10,799
Speaker 2: do things inspires the way I do. So my record,

1706
01:34:11,000 --> 01:34:15,200
Speaker 2: my record studio, everything is pre nineteen eighty, like all

1707
01:34:15,200 --> 01:34:19,000
Speaker 2: my instruments, all my microphones. I do everything something there's

1708
01:34:19,120 --> 01:34:21,880
Speaker 2: I can do tape. Everything I do is kind of

1709
01:34:21,880 --> 01:34:26,679
Speaker 2: like the old school vintage sounds and vintage music. Organic music,

1710
01:34:26,720 --> 01:34:29,639
Speaker 2: I like to call it, because you can't ai that stuff.

1711
01:34:29,680 --> 01:34:32,759
Speaker 2: You know, it sounds different, it feels different, it's funky,

1712
01:34:32,800 --> 01:34:36,240
Speaker 2: it's grittier, it's dirty. You know, it's it has mistakes

1713
01:34:36,240 --> 01:34:39,320
Speaker 2: in it that are beautiful. And that's kind of the

1714
01:34:39,320 --> 01:34:43,280
Speaker 2: stuff that I learned of how how this music was made.

1715
01:34:43,360 --> 01:34:46,080
Speaker 2: You know, how American soul music was. It was gritty,

1716
01:34:46,160 --> 01:34:50,439
Speaker 2: it was nasty, it was it was beautiful and soul

1717
01:34:50,560 --> 01:34:54,320
Speaker 2: driven and not perfect. And that's my vibe. Man. I'm

1718
01:34:54,400 --> 01:34:57,360
Speaker 2: super into like finding that magic and being able to

1719
01:34:57,479 --> 01:35:00,840
Speaker 2: make that magic relevant today, whether it's a storytelling or

1720
01:35:00,840 --> 01:35:01,560
Speaker 2: in music.

1721
01:35:01,320 --> 01:35:05,639
Speaker 3: Making, specifically when it comes to Sid Nathan and King,

1722
01:35:06,400 --> 01:35:10,360
Speaker 3: was all this information hiding and plain sight? Where did

1723
01:35:10,360 --> 01:35:13,040
Speaker 3: you have to dig and make a lot of connections,

1724
01:35:13,120 --> 01:35:15,599
Speaker 3: do a lot of interviews to assemble all the information

1725
01:35:15,680 --> 01:35:18,000
Speaker 3: not only in the film but in your head.

1726
01:35:19,360 --> 01:35:21,479
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, I mean I had to do a lot

1727
01:35:21,520 --> 01:35:23,080
Speaker 2: of digging. I had to do a lot of interviews.

1728
01:35:23,120 --> 01:35:26,439
Speaker 2: It took a lot of research because, you know, like

1729
01:35:26,479 --> 01:35:30,320
Speaker 2: every record label, who did what and what did and

1730
01:35:30,360 --> 01:35:33,720
Speaker 2: when something happened is a little fuzzy because some of

1731
01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:37,320
Speaker 2: these people's memories are faded, some of the people are gone,

1732
01:35:37,439 --> 01:35:40,280
Speaker 2: some people take more credit than they're deserved. All kinds

1733
01:35:40,280 --> 01:35:43,680
Speaker 2: of issues come, and so there had to be a

1734
01:35:43,720 --> 01:35:45,680
Speaker 2: lot of you know, especially with like Hank Ballard is

1735
01:35:45,760 --> 01:35:48,479
Speaker 2: a you know, the recording of the Twist is super

1736
01:35:48,479 --> 01:35:52,000
Speaker 2: controversial with a lot of the people. There's a lot

1737
01:35:52,040 --> 01:35:56,519
Speaker 2: of apocryphal stories. A lot of people talk about how Hank.

1738
01:35:56,560 --> 01:35:59,320
Speaker 2: The stories I kept hearing was Hank Ballard had a

1739
01:35:59,360 --> 01:36:02,880
Speaker 2: wild night with a woman or partying the night before

1740
01:36:02,880 --> 01:36:05,519
Speaker 2: he was supposed to go on American Bandstand and because

1741
01:36:05,520 --> 01:36:08,400
Speaker 2: of that he missed his flight and couldn't get to

1742
01:36:08,680 --> 01:36:12,200
Speaker 2: Philadelphia to tape the show and missed his opportunity to

1743
01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:15,519
Speaker 2: do the twist. And this has kind of been the

1744
01:36:15,600 --> 01:36:17,360
Speaker 2: lore a lot of people have been telling the story

1745
01:36:17,400 --> 01:36:21,000
Speaker 2: for years. I you know, being on PBS, you have

1746
01:36:21,080 --> 01:36:24,000
Speaker 2: to fact check the hell out of everything. So we

1747
01:36:24,080 --> 01:36:26,120
Speaker 2: had to, like I had to go and like figure out, Okay,

1748
01:36:26,160 --> 01:36:28,360
Speaker 2: so what happened? I need to find proof of this,

1749
01:36:29,080 --> 01:36:32,760
Speaker 2: And what I actually ended up finding was interviews of

1750
01:36:32,800 --> 01:36:37,200
Speaker 2: Hank Ballard telling a different story, and everything that I

1751
01:36:37,240 --> 01:36:39,320
Speaker 2: was able to find out in the history backed up

1752
01:36:39,360 --> 01:36:43,800
Speaker 2: Hank's version of the events. So one in interviews I

1753
01:36:43,840 --> 01:36:46,719
Speaker 2: was able to find out with Seymour Stein, for example,

1754
01:36:47,080 --> 01:36:51,200
Speaker 2: that Hank Ballard was Sid's favorite artist. He showed up

1755
01:36:51,240 --> 01:36:55,080
Speaker 2: on time, he did everything perfect, he never was late

1756
01:36:55,120 --> 01:36:57,600
Speaker 2: to gigs, he never had issues with the drinking, he

1757
01:36:57,640 --> 01:36:59,679
Speaker 2: never had issues with he partied, He did all that stuff,

1758
01:37:00,040 --> 01:37:02,240
Speaker 2: all the women and all that stuff. But he was

1759
01:37:02,320 --> 01:37:04,960
Speaker 2: really like on his business. That's why Sid loved him.

1760
01:37:04,960 --> 01:37:09,800
Speaker 2: He always he was a guarantee and Seymour toured with him,

1761
01:37:09,840 --> 01:37:11,200
Speaker 2: you know, he was one of the artists that was

1762
01:37:11,240 --> 01:37:14,280
Speaker 2: his tour manager for the label. So Seymour got to

1763
01:37:14,320 --> 01:37:17,280
Speaker 2: really know Hank really well and like loved him so

1764
01:37:17,560 --> 01:37:19,839
Speaker 2: one it would be strange that Hank would have missed

1765
01:37:19,920 --> 01:37:22,680
Speaker 2: a flight to a gig since he wasn't known to

1766
01:37:23,040 --> 01:37:25,120
Speaker 2: you know, literal Willie John was known for that all

1767
01:37:25,160 --> 01:37:27,920
Speaker 2: the time, but Hank wasn't. Then the other thing was

1768
01:37:27,960 --> 01:37:31,640
Speaker 2: Hank actually performs on Bandstand. He performs on Bandstand in

1769
01:37:31,840 --> 01:37:36,040
Speaker 2: June of that year, and what the deal is that

1770
01:37:36,640 --> 01:37:41,559
Speaker 2: Dick Clark decides he hears the song in Baltimore because

1771
01:37:41,680 --> 01:37:43,680
Speaker 2: Dick Clark used to control. Dick Clark was kind of

1772
01:37:43,720 --> 01:37:46,679
Speaker 2: a mob figure. He controlled all the radio stations in

1773
01:37:47,120 --> 01:37:50,240
Speaker 2: Baltimore and Philly and a lot of the East Coast.

1774
01:37:50,439 --> 01:37:53,080
Speaker 2: And because he hears like Hank's versions becoming a hit,

1775
01:37:53,840 --> 01:37:57,360
Speaker 2: he doesn't really want to use Hank Ballard to make

1776
01:37:57,400 --> 01:38:00,599
Speaker 2: a global hit out of it because of the songs

1777
01:38:00,640 --> 01:38:03,000
Speaker 2: Hank had done. These anti had a baby songs which

1778
01:38:03,000 --> 01:38:05,640
Speaker 2: are outrey and they were kind of singing to be

1779
01:38:05,760 --> 01:38:09,320
Speaker 2: dirty and it was kind of against that squeaky clean

1780
01:38:09,320 --> 01:38:13,559
Speaker 2: image that Dick had back in the day. So they

1781
01:38:13,600 --> 01:38:15,200
Speaker 2: make it back. So he goes to sit and says,

1782
01:38:15,240 --> 01:38:18,959
Speaker 2: how about this, You basically don't charge me for publishing.

1783
01:38:20,479 --> 01:38:22,160
Speaker 2: I can't tell whether it was either for free or

1784
01:38:22,240 --> 01:38:24,479
Speaker 2: reduced rate. I assume it would be don't charge me

1785
01:38:24,520 --> 01:38:27,759
Speaker 2: for publishing for X number of years on this song,

1786
01:38:28,320 --> 01:38:31,439
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go re record it and release it. You

1787
01:38:31,560 --> 01:38:33,960
Speaker 2: come on my show and I'll give you a hit.

1788
01:38:34,040 --> 01:38:36,680
Speaker 2: I'll make you a hit out of something else. So

1789
01:38:36,800 --> 01:38:39,599
Speaker 2: he comes on and he does finger Popping Time in June,

1790
01:38:40,040 --> 01:38:43,040
Speaker 2: and Finger Popping Time becomes a huge hit Frank Ballard.

1791
01:38:43,560 --> 01:38:48,120
Speaker 2: In August of that year, they release the Twist. Chubby

1792
01:38:48,160 --> 01:38:51,280
Speaker 2: Tucker's version of the Twist comes out. So the reason why,

1793
01:38:51,479 --> 01:38:55,040
Speaker 2: like the apocryphal story doesn't work is because they would

1794
01:38:55,040 --> 01:38:58,120
Speaker 2: have needed time to record it. You couldn't just on

1795
01:38:58,160 --> 01:39:01,439
Speaker 2: a drop of a dime bring to checker in, record

1796
01:39:01,520 --> 01:39:03,960
Speaker 2: him and release it to the next day. That did.

1797
01:39:04,040 --> 01:39:05,720
Speaker 2: It worked that way for King, but it did not

1798
01:39:05,840 --> 01:39:08,360
Speaker 2: work that way for any other record label. It took

1799
01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:10,800
Speaker 2: months and months of planning, and it took a lot

1800
01:39:10,880 --> 01:39:13,439
Speaker 2: of prep to get that stuff moving and getting an emotion.

1801
01:39:14,000 --> 01:39:16,439
Speaker 2: So Dick Clark had planned in advance to make this

1802
01:39:16,479 --> 01:39:19,360
Speaker 2: a hit. He had planned to give Sid another hit

1803
01:39:19,439 --> 01:39:21,200
Speaker 2: with finger pop in Time, and he took all the

1804
01:39:21,280 --> 01:39:23,960
Speaker 2: royalties and all the money from the twist. And you

1805
01:39:24,040 --> 01:39:26,600
Speaker 2: see he plays the twist I think five times that

1806
01:39:26,760 --> 01:39:29,800
Speaker 2: year on bandstand because anything that played on Bandstand was

1807
01:39:29,840 --> 01:39:32,320
Speaker 2: going to be a hit. Everybody knew it. Dick Clark

1808
01:39:32,360 --> 01:39:35,000
Speaker 2: knew it. Sid knew it. So Sid knew that if

1809
01:39:35,000 --> 01:39:36,679
Speaker 2: I give you a deal for a couple of years

1810
01:39:36,680 --> 01:39:39,880
Speaker 2: on this, on this publishing for this tune, you make

1811
01:39:39,920 --> 01:39:42,160
Speaker 2: a hit about something else, I'll take the money and run.

1812
01:39:42,640 --> 01:39:45,960
Speaker 2: And that's the deal that they made. And actually, Hank,

1813
01:39:47,120 --> 01:39:50,000
Speaker 2: Hank Baler was able to make three hits that year.

1814
01:39:50,040 --> 01:39:52,679
Speaker 2: So he had the Twist, he had finger Pop in time,

1815
01:39:52,760 --> 01:39:55,719
Speaker 2: then he had Let's Go, Let's Go, Let's Go. Because

1816
01:39:55,840 --> 01:39:57,400
Speaker 2: he was of the twist, he was able to make

1817
01:39:57,439 --> 01:39:59,760
Speaker 2: three hits. And then he also was able to make

1818
01:39:59,760 --> 01:40:03,200
Speaker 2: more hits by the answer songs. He had an answer song,

1819
01:40:04,080 --> 01:40:06,240
Speaker 2: you know, Chubby Chucker, they did the Peppermint Twist as

1820
01:40:06,240 --> 01:40:09,920
Speaker 2: their answer song. But Henry also I'm Sorry, Hank Ballard

1821
01:40:09,920 --> 01:40:12,680
Speaker 2: also released his own answer songs as well. So they

1822
01:40:12,680 --> 01:40:14,439
Speaker 2: were able to get a whole bunch of money out

1823
01:40:14,439 --> 01:40:16,679
Speaker 2: of this, because that's how the business worked back then.

1824
01:40:17,000 --> 01:40:18,439
Speaker 2: But that's the type of stuff that I had to

1825
01:40:18,479 --> 01:40:20,680
Speaker 2: go through and tease out, and it made a lot

1826
01:40:20,680 --> 01:40:24,320
Speaker 2: of the old timers really uncomfortable because I was going

1827
01:40:24,360 --> 01:40:28,040
Speaker 2: to find out who played on what you Know. The

1828
01:40:28,120 --> 01:40:30,479
Speaker 2: drummer Phil Paul believes that he played on the Twist.

1829
01:40:30,520 --> 01:40:32,479
Speaker 2: It turns out that he played on the answer song

1830
01:40:34,080 --> 01:40:37,559
Speaker 2: the backup You Know Hank Hank Ballard when he wrote

1831
01:40:37,600 --> 01:40:40,040
Speaker 2: the song the Twist, the original version he wrote with

1832
01:40:40,080 --> 01:40:42,599
Speaker 2: his band in Florida, and he gets into a fight

1833
01:40:42,640 --> 01:40:45,479
Speaker 2: with these guys and he decides that he wants to

1834
01:40:45,479 --> 01:40:48,280
Speaker 2: take this song and make it his. So he rewrites

1835
01:40:48,360 --> 01:40:52,479
Speaker 2: the song and records it at King, but he doesn't

1836
01:40:52,520 --> 01:40:55,559
Speaker 2: have the Midnighters anymore. The Midnighters breaks up after this.

1837
01:40:55,600 --> 01:40:57,679
Speaker 2: He doesn't have his Midnighters, so he needs to use

1838
01:40:57,720 --> 01:41:00,559
Speaker 2: another band to come and sing, so he says Otis

1839
01:41:00,640 --> 01:41:03,920
Speaker 2: Williams and the Charms has his backups band on this.

1840
01:41:04,520 --> 01:41:08,719
Speaker 2: They get a guy named Sunny Thompson from Chicago who's

1841
01:41:08,760 --> 01:41:12,000
Speaker 2: in town recording a King. He's the backing band for

1842
01:41:12,080 --> 01:41:15,680
Speaker 2: the Twist because they're already in the studio recording and

1843
01:41:15,720 --> 01:41:18,559
Speaker 2: so they play that. They end up being the backing band.

1844
01:41:18,960 --> 01:41:21,759
Speaker 2: He has backing vocalists. Because all these people are around

1845
01:41:21,840 --> 01:41:25,519
Speaker 2: King and they record the twist. He rewrote the song

1846
01:41:26,280 --> 01:41:27,720
Speaker 2: one of the things I was able to discover, and

1847
01:41:27,760 --> 01:41:29,200
Speaker 2: we didn't put it in the film. We didn't have

1848
01:41:29,240 --> 01:41:34,800
Speaker 2: space for it. But you know, Hank Ballard, his father

1849
01:41:34,960 --> 01:41:39,040
Speaker 2: and his mother had a really tumultuous relationship. So his father,

1850
01:41:39,280 --> 01:41:43,280
Speaker 2: the story goes that they had a fight when Hank

1851
01:41:44,080 --> 01:41:48,120
Speaker 2: was very young. The mother goes running out of the house,

1852
01:41:48,200 --> 01:41:52,120
Speaker 2: father grabs his shotgun and chases her. Mother does not

1853
01:41:52,200 --> 01:41:55,479
Speaker 2: come back. There is no clarity on what happens and

1854
01:41:55,520 --> 01:41:58,599
Speaker 2: why she doesn't come back, but doesn't come back, and

1855
01:41:58,680 --> 01:42:02,120
Speaker 2: he now has his father. They're in Detroit, who is

1856
01:42:02,160 --> 01:42:04,720
Speaker 2: a single father. A couple of years later, he has

1857
01:42:04,720 --> 01:42:07,519
Speaker 2: a heart attacking father. Hank has to go live with

1858
01:42:07,600 --> 01:42:11,880
Speaker 2: family in Alabama, which he hates, by the way, But

1859
01:42:12,520 --> 01:42:14,960
Speaker 2: in that he has a lyric that he uses in

1860
01:42:15,000 --> 01:42:19,040
Speaker 2: the twist where it's my daddy is sleeping and Mama

1861
01:42:19,080 --> 01:42:23,240
Speaker 2: ain't around. So you'll hear that in the film where

1862
01:42:23,280 --> 01:42:26,080
Speaker 2: we do our transition point where you hear Hank Ballard

1863
01:42:26,120 --> 01:42:29,479
Speaker 2: say it, and then you hear you hear sorry Chubby

1864
01:42:29,560 --> 01:42:31,679
Speaker 2: Chucker sing that line, and then you hear Hank Ballard

1865
01:42:31,720 --> 01:42:34,920
Speaker 2: sing that line. And you hear there's an authenticity shift

1866
01:42:34,920 --> 01:42:37,960
Speaker 2: there because Hank Ballard is talking about his story. He's

1867
01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:41,080
Speaker 2: talking about something in that song that was great pain

1868
01:42:41,200 --> 01:42:44,320
Speaker 2: for him, which is really interesting. You know, it's something

1869
01:42:44,360 --> 01:42:46,320
Speaker 2: that's of great pain, but it's something that brings the

1870
01:42:46,360 --> 01:42:49,479
Speaker 2: American people great joy in the song. And there are

1871
01:42:49,520 --> 01:42:51,760
Speaker 2: a lot of songs that have this history. We talked

1872
01:42:51,800 --> 01:42:54,519
Speaker 2: to Vince gil about this actually, because you know, Vince

1873
01:42:54,560 --> 01:42:58,160
Speaker 2: wrote that song about his brother go Rest You on

1874
01:42:58,240 --> 01:43:01,880
Speaker 2: the Mountain. I'm messing the butcher during the title. But

1875
01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:03,720
Speaker 2: you know, you have a lot of these moments where

1876
01:43:03,800 --> 01:43:07,160
Speaker 2: artists write about the most personal, painful moments in their life,

1877
01:43:07,800 --> 01:43:11,920
Speaker 2: and it turns out it translates very powerfully in music.

1878
01:43:12,160 --> 01:43:14,759
Speaker 2: And that's one of the secret sauces of the twist

1879
01:43:15,160 --> 01:43:16,920
Speaker 2: that we try to find ways to kind of point

1880
01:43:16,920 --> 01:43:20,160
Speaker 2: that we learn in the history that that song is

1881
01:43:20,200 --> 01:43:23,880
Speaker 2: like really powerfully his. It's his story that he infuses

1882
01:43:23,920 --> 01:43:26,200
Speaker 2: into this song, and that's one of the things that

1883
01:43:26,240 --> 01:43:28,559
Speaker 2: makes it powerful. And that's one of the differences you

1884
01:43:28,640 --> 01:43:32,200
Speaker 2: hear in Hank's version versus Chubby's version. But this is

1885
01:43:32,200 --> 01:43:33,840
Speaker 2: the type of stuff that we had to dig deep

1886
01:43:33,880 --> 01:43:36,160
Speaker 2: into and I can tell you about things we didn't

1887
01:43:36,160 --> 01:43:39,479
Speaker 2: even put in the film all the way. I mean,

1888
01:43:40,280 --> 01:43:43,800
Speaker 2: things that you would be surprised to learn about different

1889
01:43:43,800 --> 01:43:46,360
Speaker 2: recordings and different songs. But we had to go deep

1890
01:43:46,439 --> 01:43:48,599
Speaker 2: that level into being able to get to the bottom

1891
01:43:48,800 --> 01:43:52,400
Speaker 2: of every fact, every point because PBS is really really

1892
01:43:52,439 --> 01:43:55,040
Speaker 2: serious about fact and truth, which is what makes them

1893
01:43:55,120 --> 01:43:59,200
Speaker 2: really makes the opportunity really powerful and makes working with

1894
01:43:59,320 --> 01:44:01,719
Speaker 2: somebody like PBS really amazing.

1895
01:44:03,200 --> 01:44:04,320
Speaker 3: So what's next for you?

1896
01:44:06,920 --> 01:44:09,559
Speaker 2: The first thing I'm doing is hanging out with my kids.

1897
01:44:10,400 --> 01:44:12,760
Speaker 2: For the last nine years, I haven't really spent a

1898
01:44:12,760 --> 01:44:15,640
Speaker 2: lot of time. I've three kids, a twenty five year

1899
01:44:15,680 --> 01:44:18,439
Speaker 2: old and all my twenty five year old sister who

1900
01:44:18,439 --> 01:44:21,320
Speaker 2: I raise, and I've got eighteen year old twins. They're

1901
01:44:21,479 --> 01:44:26,280
Speaker 2: freshmen in college, so they're ones in jazz studies and

1902
01:44:26,320 --> 01:44:29,439
Speaker 2: the other one is in engineering, so I am helping

1903
01:44:29,520 --> 01:44:34,719
Speaker 2: them guide through that process. Then I am exploring several

1904
01:44:34,760 --> 01:44:37,280
Speaker 2: stories that have kind of come out of this King

1905
01:44:37,360 --> 01:44:41,440
Speaker 2: record stuff. I'm working on trying to find different documentary

1906
01:44:41,479 --> 01:44:44,400
Speaker 2: stories in music to pursue. You know, this film for

1907
01:44:44,479 --> 01:44:48,080
Speaker 2: me was really talking about diversity, you know when we started.

1908
01:44:48,120 --> 01:44:50,680
Speaker 2: When I started this film in twenty sixteen. It was

1909
01:44:50,760 --> 01:44:59,080
Speaker 2: during our current president's first first campaign, first election campaign,

1910
01:44:59,479 --> 01:45:01,840
Speaker 2: and I really we found that there was like very

1911
01:45:01,880 --> 01:45:07,519
Speaker 2: divisive language around diversity, and I wanted to find something

1912
01:45:07,520 --> 01:45:10,479
Speaker 2: that spoke to that, to really show that we didn't

1913
01:45:10,520 --> 01:45:13,759
Speaker 2: come about diversity because America is a nice, jolly place

1914
01:45:13,800 --> 01:45:16,360
Speaker 2: and we're all friends and we all do the right thing.

1915
01:45:16,439 --> 01:45:19,840
Speaker 2: We came to diversity because of business, and that diversity

1916
01:45:19,880 --> 01:45:23,000
Speaker 2: opened up more business. It was, you know, it's very

1917
01:45:23,040 --> 01:45:28,880
Speaker 2: quintessential American that it's a business, business driven diversity. You know,

1918
01:45:28,920 --> 01:45:31,040
Speaker 2: it was a business driven decision that led us here

1919
01:45:31,040 --> 01:45:33,280
Speaker 2: as a society, and I wanted to show that I

1920
01:45:33,320 --> 01:45:36,160
Speaker 2: wanted to kind of bring some complexity to that conversation,

1921
01:45:36,760 --> 01:45:38,640
Speaker 2: and music is a perfect place to do that. You

1922
01:45:38,680 --> 01:45:41,680
Speaker 2: can hear the diversity and the content that's created, and

1923
01:45:41,720 --> 01:45:44,000
Speaker 2: you can also see the business effect that it had

1924
01:45:44,080 --> 01:45:47,400
Speaker 2: through sales and all kinds of things, through impact. You

1925
01:45:47,439 --> 01:45:50,679
Speaker 2: can see the data and here the effect. So that's

1926
01:45:50,680 --> 01:45:54,040
Speaker 2: for me, was really powerful to what I wanted. And

1927
01:45:54,080 --> 01:45:56,800
Speaker 2: I'm looking for different there's different stories that I've definitely

1928
01:45:57,240 --> 01:45:59,799
Speaker 2: I've been developing, but I'm looking for something that speaks

1929
01:45:59,840 --> 01:46:03,559
Speaker 2: to the power of music and the effects that it's

1930
01:46:03,600 --> 01:46:06,880
Speaker 2: had on us as a culture. I'm looking for ways

1931
01:46:06,920 --> 01:46:10,120
Speaker 2: to have deeper conversations about things that we take for granted.

1932
01:46:10,200 --> 01:46:12,760
Speaker 2: You know, King Records is just a rock and roll

1933
01:46:12,800 --> 01:46:15,839
Speaker 2: and all these conversations are is just music to some people,

1934
01:46:16,280 --> 01:46:18,599
Speaker 2: but it really wasn't. It was much more than that,

1935
01:46:18,720 --> 01:46:20,760
Speaker 2: and there were more lessons that were learned in this

1936
01:46:20,920 --> 01:46:24,000
Speaker 2: process that we've forgotten. We've forgotten about some of the labels,

1937
01:46:24,040 --> 01:46:26,080
Speaker 2: but we've also forgotten some of the lessons we learned

1938
01:46:26,080 --> 01:46:28,240
Speaker 2: in that process. So a lot of the things I'm

1939
01:46:28,280 --> 01:46:31,640
Speaker 2: wanting to explore are reminding us of the things that

1940
01:46:31,680 --> 01:46:35,639
Speaker 2: we've forgotten. Whether it's the way we made music, which

1941
01:46:35,720 --> 01:46:38,719
Speaker 2: I think right now is really important. I'm really interested

1942
01:46:38,760 --> 01:46:43,200
Speaker 2: in exploring the process of making music and how we

1943
01:46:43,240 --> 01:46:46,040
Speaker 2: can I'm hoping to inspire people to go back to

1944
01:46:46,080 --> 01:46:49,599
Speaker 2: making records on tape, to go back to pressing records,

1945
01:46:49,640 --> 01:46:52,320
Speaker 2: you know, all the information is there, or at least

1946
01:46:52,360 --> 01:46:54,640
Speaker 2: taking some of that process. This is something that I'm

1947
01:46:54,680 --> 01:46:57,040
Speaker 2: hoping musicians can kind of take away, and I'm looking

1948
01:46:57,120 --> 01:46:59,479
Speaker 2: for ways to kind of find stories to highlight that

1949
01:47:00,000 --> 01:47:02,280
Speaker 2: I'll also able to kind of able to show the

1950
01:47:02,320 --> 01:47:06,400
Speaker 2: cultural significance of these things and how they're applicable. Music

1951
01:47:06,479 --> 01:47:10,599
Speaker 2: business has not changed since the nineteen forties. It's shocking,

1952
01:47:10,720 --> 01:47:13,400
Speaker 2: you know, you would think that it has. But we're

1953
01:47:13,439 --> 01:47:16,760
Speaker 2: back to releasing singles just like they were releasing like

1954
01:47:16,960 --> 01:47:19,799
Speaker 2: singles back a King. You know, they released two sides.

1955
01:47:20,160 --> 01:47:22,559
Speaker 2: It's a song in another song, and that's the type

1956
01:47:22,600 --> 01:47:25,799
Speaker 2: of stuff that King. This type of stuff King Records

1957
01:47:25,880 --> 01:47:27,800
Speaker 2: was doing. The business that they were doing is the

1958
01:47:27,800 --> 01:47:30,280
Speaker 2: same business that we're doing today. And if we're able

1959
01:47:30,320 --> 01:47:33,320
Speaker 2: to get if we're able to continue making music through

1960
01:47:33,360 --> 01:47:37,400
Speaker 2: this AI revolution, and we want to continue making organic

1961
01:47:37,520 --> 01:47:41,639
Speaker 2: revolution organic music, rather, we're going to need to find

1962
01:47:41,800 --> 01:47:43,639
Speaker 2: We're going to need people who are going to highlight

1963
01:47:43,680 --> 01:47:46,200
Speaker 2: these stories, who are going to show the process and

1964
01:47:46,240 --> 01:47:49,520
Speaker 2: show the effect of how these things were made organically

1965
01:47:49,880 --> 01:47:52,400
Speaker 2: and the importance of that. And I think those are

1966
01:47:52,439 --> 01:47:55,080
Speaker 2: the things that will allow us to create new sounds,

1967
01:47:55,280 --> 01:47:58,599
Speaker 2: create new music, because AI can only recreate, It doesn't

1968
01:47:58,600 --> 01:48:01,400
Speaker 2: have the ability of being able to create new And

1969
01:48:01,439 --> 01:48:04,519
Speaker 2: I'm hoping that by digging into history and by showing

1970
01:48:04,560 --> 01:48:07,920
Speaker 2: all of these things, here is how we created this stuff,

1971
01:48:07,960 --> 01:48:11,400
Speaker 2: Here's how we arrived here, I'm hoping that other musicians

1972
01:48:11,439 --> 01:48:16,000
Speaker 2: like myself can be inspired to say, Okay, so this

1973
01:48:16,040 --> 01:48:18,040
Speaker 2: is what we are today, this is what we're doing.

1974
01:48:18,360 --> 01:48:21,040
Speaker 2: We're trying to find something that's in a different market

1975
01:48:21,080 --> 01:48:23,559
Speaker 2: in a different way and a different thing, a different sound.

1976
01:48:23,920 --> 01:48:26,479
Speaker 2: Here's how Sid Nathan did it. Here is how these

1977
01:48:26,520 --> 01:48:29,000
Speaker 2: groups did it. Here's how they did it with ECM,

1978
01:48:29,320 --> 01:48:33,520
Speaker 2: Here's how questlov did it. Here's how all these polices

1979
01:48:33,560 --> 01:48:36,000
Speaker 2: did it. And I'm hoping that I can find ways

1980
01:48:36,080 --> 01:48:39,400
Speaker 2: of being able to highlight those stories and give people

1981
01:48:39,479 --> 01:48:42,400
Speaker 2: reason to not be afraid of AI. You know, I

1982
01:48:42,439 --> 01:48:44,439
Speaker 2: do AI for a living. It's my research area and

1983
01:48:44,479 --> 01:48:47,360
Speaker 2: my PhD studies and computer engineering, it's what I do

1984
01:48:47,520 --> 01:48:51,920
Speaker 2: professionally at work. I know it's limitations. I understand its

1985
01:48:52,000 --> 01:48:56,000
Speaker 2: limitations musically, and I understand what the differences are with

1986
01:48:56,120 --> 01:48:58,080
Speaker 2: what a human can do and what a machine can do.

1987
01:48:58,439 --> 01:49:01,800
Speaker 2: And I'm hoping that by highlighting these stories, you know,

1988
01:49:01,840 --> 01:49:04,200
Speaker 2: you can inspire people to not be afraid, to be

1989
01:49:04,240 --> 01:49:07,800
Speaker 2: able to see what we're capable of doing and find

1990
01:49:07,840 --> 01:49:09,000
Speaker 2: ways to recreate it again.

1991
01:49:09,840 --> 01:49:12,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean my mind is blown. As I say,

1992
01:49:12,560 --> 01:49:17,360
Speaker 3: I knew Seymour pretty well and he could wax rhapsodic

1993
01:49:17,439 --> 01:49:21,560
Speaker 3: about SID. I think you are the number one repository

1994
01:49:21,600 --> 01:49:25,240
Speaker 3: for information on SID and people make movies and they

1995
01:49:25,240 --> 01:49:28,680
Speaker 3: have an interest. You really have gone deep. I think

1996
01:49:28,720 --> 01:49:31,240
Speaker 3: you know more about SID and King Records than anybody else,

1997
01:49:31,400 --> 01:49:34,640
Speaker 3: you know. I hope all this information just gets recorded

1998
01:49:34,680 --> 01:49:36,920
Speaker 3: somewhere so we're not lost in the sands in time.

1999
01:49:37,240 --> 01:49:41,519
Speaker 3: You've accumulated it. I haven't seen it accumulated anywhere else

2000
01:49:42,120 --> 01:49:45,439
Speaker 3: in any event. I mean, it's been fantastic talking to you.

2001
01:49:46,400 --> 01:49:49,040
Speaker 3: As I said earlier, the film is fantastic.

2002
01:49:49,160 --> 01:49:50,000
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

2003
01:49:50,400 --> 01:49:52,920
Speaker 3: As I said, it's got so many threads. It's got

2004
01:49:52,920 --> 01:49:59,519
Speaker 3: the Cincinnati thread, it's got the country and black music thread,

2005
01:50:00,080 --> 01:50:04,120
Speaker 3: it's got it's really a lot. It's really good, and

2006
01:50:04,880 --> 01:50:06,960
Speaker 3: you have been really good. Yeahmy, I want to thank

2007
01:50:07,040 --> 01:50:09,200
Speaker 3: you for taking this time to speak with my audience.

2008
01:50:09,360 --> 01:50:11,160
Speaker 2: I appreciate you. Thank you so much for having me.

2009
01:50:11,240 --> 01:50:14,160
Speaker 2: I hope that the audience gets to check out the film.

2010
01:50:14,200 --> 01:50:17,479
Speaker 2: It's going to be freely available till the seventh of

2011
01:50:17,479 --> 01:50:22,120
Speaker 2: December on the PBS app, also on YouTube, and if

2012
01:50:22,200 --> 01:50:24,760
Speaker 2: you feel free to get in the comments section and

2013
01:50:24,800 --> 01:50:27,200
Speaker 2: say something positive to all those haters out there, I

2014
01:50:27,240 --> 01:50:31,000
Speaker 2: would love you for it. Audience, Thank you. But yeah,

2015
01:50:31,200 --> 01:50:33,400
Speaker 2: please check it out, and if you get an opportunity to,

2016
01:50:33,520 --> 01:50:35,439
Speaker 2: you can reach out to me. I'd love to come

2017
01:50:35,439 --> 01:50:37,720
Speaker 2: and show you the director's cut and talk about the

2018
01:50:37,720 --> 01:50:42,000
Speaker 2: film and all its intersecting threads in American music anytime.

2019
01:50:42,120 --> 01:50:45,120
Speaker 2: So I'm available to talk because I've got nothing else

2020
01:50:45,160 --> 01:50:47,880
Speaker 2: going on to that school of my life. And I

2021
01:50:47,960 --> 01:50:50,080
Speaker 2: really appreciate you for having me on this show, Bob.

2022
01:50:50,120 --> 01:50:52,080
Speaker 2: It's an honor. It's an honor to have been covered,

2023
01:50:52,840 --> 01:50:55,160
Speaker 2: for you to come the story to come to your attention.

2024
01:50:55,320 --> 01:50:58,240
Speaker 2: I deeply appreciate it, your effect. I've been a fan

2025
01:50:58,280 --> 01:51:00,840
Speaker 2: for a long time. Your effect on American music since

2026
01:51:00,880 --> 01:51:04,920
Speaker 2: the nineties is dope. I agree with you a lot

2027
01:51:04,920 --> 01:51:08,120
Speaker 2: of your strong, hot takes on music, and I thank

2028
01:51:08,160 --> 01:51:10,000
Speaker 2: you so much for having me on the show. It's

2029
01:51:10,040 --> 01:51:11,200
Speaker 2: truly an honor. Thank you.

2030
01:51:11,920 --> 01:51:14,920
Speaker 3: While you're making me smile, you're making my day in

2031
01:51:15,000 --> 01:51:15,479
Speaker 3: any event.

2032
01:51:15,600 --> 01:51:16,599
Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah maze.

2033
01:51:17,000 --> 01:51:20,160
Speaker 3: Until next time. This is Bob Left says