Speaker 1: Before we begin today, I want to say our thoughts
Speaker 1: are with everyone in Los Angeles grappling with the devastating wildfires.
Speaker 1: This episode was recorded before the fires began, but I
Speaker 1: felt they would not be right to not acknowledge the
Speaker 1: current events. It's a stark reminder of how fragile life
Speaker 1: can be. Our hearts are with you. This is Sloane
Speaker 1: Glass post of American homicide. In this episode, we're doing
Speaker 1: something different. Rather than look back at cases, we're looking ahead.
Speaker 1: It's the start of a new year, and we have
Speaker 1: highlighted three cases we believe will define true crime in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. To discuss the status and implications of
Speaker 1: these cases, I am joined today by Brian Enton. Brian
Speaker 1: is the senior national correspondent at News Nation. He's a
Speaker 1: former colleague of mine and a friend. Brian is an
Speaker 1: incredible journalist and he has personally covered all of these stories.
Speaker 1: The first is a story that captured the nation's attention
Speaker 1: at the end of the year, the killing of United
Speaker 1: Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Luigi Mangioni has been charged in
Speaker 1: that case and has pled not guilty. Brian and I
Speaker 1: discuss what is next for Mangioni. Our second case involves
Speaker 1: the mysterious death of Ellen Greenberg in twenty eleven. Ellen
Speaker 1: was found with twenty stab wounds. Her death was curiously
Speaker 1: ruled to be a suicide, even though many of those
Speaker 1: wounds were in her back. After multiple appeals and legal battles,
Speaker 1: the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court has agreed to review that
Speaker 1: suicide ruling. This year. For our third case, we discussed
Speaker 1: the upcoming trial of Brian Coberger, the man accused of
Speaker 1: killing four University of Idaho students in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1: Brian Enton is an expert on the Coburger case and
Speaker 1: lets us know what we can expect. Here is my
Speaker 1: conversation with Brian Brian Entton, thank you for doing this
Speaker 1: episode of American Homicide with me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for having me son. It's
Speaker 2: so cool to be here with you.
Speaker 1: I like to do all my research for true crime
Speaker 1: on Reddit, as we all do. Right, That's where I
Speaker 1: like to see what are the people saying. It's a
Speaker 1: vibe check. Almost every story I look up, someone has
Speaker 1: commented well, according to Brian Anton. According to Brian Anton.
Speaker 2: Well, and the thing with Reddit and with people on
Speaker 2: TikTok too, and on x you have people who are
Speaker 2: so interested in the cases and so invested, and they'll
Speaker 2: stay up all night going through public records and finding
Speaker 2: out things that even I didn't know about family members
Speaker 2: and people connected to the cases, and then they'll send
Speaker 2: me tips. So it's it's like, sometimes I feel like
Speaker 2: I have this little army of people helping me, and
Speaker 2: you can find really interesting stuff on Reddit you don't
Speaker 2: even see on the news.
Speaker 1: Are you still news daddy? Is that still Yeah?
Speaker 2: That's still a thing, Yeah, news Daddy. And I used
Speaker 2: to be so embarrassed of it. I don't know where
Speaker 2: it came from, And now I'm just like, well, I
Speaker 2: guess it's a you know, it's a thing.
Speaker 3: I guess you.
Speaker 1: Know, there's a comfort level that I think you've been
Speaker 1: able to give to people around really hard stories. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think that they just feel like what you said,
Speaker 2: that I'm just normal. You try to be professional where
Speaker 2: journalists you want to, you know, stick to the facts,
Speaker 2: but you'd be lying if you just try to say
Speaker 2: you never got emotional or never felt anger, or never
Speaker 2: related to some of the family members.
Speaker 3: That kind of thing.
Speaker 1: I always saw that as an advantage. I thought it
Speaker 1: was so strange when people to say, well, you have
Speaker 1: to leave that at the door, you have to remove
Speaker 1: yourself from it.
Speaker 2: Or even that you can't help people, like it's just
Speaker 2: not who I am. Like, you know, you'll go out
Speaker 2: and you'll meet these families and they might need help
Speaker 2: with something like hey, do you know someone.
Speaker 3: Who does this?
Speaker 2: Or you know we're really low on money, right, I
Speaker 2: don't know. I just I can't just bet well line
Speaker 2: is drawn. I'm a journalist. I mean, that's why I
Speaker 2: can't do it.
Speaker 1: Everything we do here is trying further in cases, these
Speaker 1: families deserve that it doesn't just end when everyone else
Speaker 1: is forgetting and moving on, and they deserve to have
Speaker 1: those connections and for people to do investigative work to
Speaker 1: try to see if they're something that someone else hasn't
Speaker 1: picked up on.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I try to be real and like respect the families
Speaker 2: and what they're going through. And you know, when you're
Speaker 2: in the middle of one of these cases, like with Coburger,
Speaker 2: like before the arrest, you know, when the community is
Speaker 2: so on edge, you just have to remember what people
Speaker 2: are going through with the families are going through, and
Speaker 2: I try not to take advantage. I mean, it's it's
Speaker 2: not worth it for the story to be the first.
Speaker 2: Always I would lose sleep at night if I felt
Speaker 2: like I put someone through more pain than they were
Speaker 2: already going through, you know, like with with Coburger, I
Speaker 2: just remembered this one story. When I went Kayleyanzov was
Speaker 2: one of the victims. I became pretty close to her
Speaker 2: parents while I was an idahoe and still now, and
Speaker 2: before Brian Coburger was arrested, I was at their house.
Speaker 2: They lived near Quardelaine, which is a couple hours from Moscow, Idaho,
Speaker 2: where the murders happened. And we were doing an interview.
Speaker 2: When we were talking and they showed me that Kaylee's
Speaker 2: ashes were next to Maddie's ashes. They had them next
Speaker 2: to each other. Yeah, because they were friends and they
Speaker 2: just both families like Maddie didn't want parent didn't want
Speaker 2: to take the ashes away from Kaylee's house, you know,
Speaker 2: because they that gave them comfort. And so it was
Speaker 2: really like an emotional thing to see. And we shot
Speaker 2: it and it was going to be a really big
Speaker 2: part of our story. And when we left, Kaylee's mom
Speaker 2: called me and said, we really don't want you to
Speaker 2: show that part like we thought about it and we
Speaker 2: don't want like people to think that like Maddie's family
Speaker 2: doesn't care about her something, because it was the opposite.
Speaker 2: That's why they kept you know. And anyway, of course,
Speaker 2: no questions asked, Like I took it out, which I
Speaker 2: think other people wouldn't have done that because in the
Speaker 2: moment it was it was a really good, you know,
Speaker 2: exclusive element that no one else had. But like you
Speaker 2: were saying, when you stay on these cases for so long,
Speaker 2: it's not worth upsetting them, And then I would have
Speaker 2: felt terrible about it if she asked to take it,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like the other crime reporters
Speaker 2: and from the other TV networks and stuff will come in,
Speaker 2: you know how it is. They'll parachute in for a
Speaker 2: couple of days, they'll do some live shots and stories,
Speaker 2: and then they'll leave war with like Coburger and some
Speaker 2: of the others. I've just stayed in those places, basically
Speaker 2: moved to Idaho for a couple months and then been
Speaker 2: to pretty much all of the court hearings. So I
Speaker 2: think people kind of connect with that. They see that
Speaker 2: I stay at these places and get really really invested.
Speaker 1: You stay in You're real. Yeah, you're not a scavenger
Speaker 1: in any way. You connect with you I try.
Speaker 2: Someone just yesterday called me a prostitute, which I had
Speaker 2: never heard. I've never heard that phrase before. But then
Speaker 2: I ended up because I ended up. Have you ever
Speaker 2: heard of that before?
Speaker 3: Too?
Speaker 2: And I ended up becoming friends of the guy, and
Speaker 2: like we bonded and he was cool with me after
Speaker 2: we talked.
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course I want to talk more about Coburger
Speaker 1: and everything surrounding that case later.
Speaker 3: OK.
Speaker 1: Today I want us to kind of look at and
Speaker 1: think about the true crime cases that we should keep
Speaker 1: an eye out for in twenty twenty five. And also
Speaker 1: you are able to explain to everyone what it's been
Speaker 1: like to cover some of these stories in a newsroom
Speaker 1: environment in the field. It's impossible to start this without
Speaker 1: talking about Luigi Mangioni and what has happened in the
Speaker 1: United Healthcare CEO shooting.
Speaker 4: Luigi man Jioni is pleaded not guilty to charges in
Speaker 4: the cold blooded killing of the United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson.
Speaker 1: This is a story. I've never seen anything like this.
Speaker 2: When the video came out and you had like a
Speaker 2: prominent CEO shot right there on the street, and it
Speaker 2: was clear that he was targeted. I think the interest
Speaker 2: level was really really high then, even we were covering
Speaker 2: every single day and people were trying to figure out
Speaker 2: who it was.
Speaker 3: We got a tip actually.
Speaker 2: That the killer might be from Atlanta, so they flew
Speaker 2: me to Atlanta. And this is what people don't realize,
Speaker 2: Like I was just sort of chilling in Atlanta because
Speaker 2: we really thought I don't know if you remember that
Speaker 2: they said that the bus went from Atlanta, and we
Speaker 2: had some other tips, and we were even talk about Reddit.
Speaker 2: People were sending me photos of people in the Atlanta
Speaker 2: area that looked like the guy in the surveillance video.
Speaker 2: We would go drive by their houses like we were
Speaker 2: really investigating the Atlanta area. So I was in Atlanta
Speaker 2: and then we got the call that they've got a
Speaker 2: person of interest in Pennsylvania. So got the first flight
Speaker 2: to Pennsylvania. But the newsroom was just was crazy. And
Speaker 2: I think what's interesting is there was so much interest
Speaker 2: in the story even before the arrest. And a lot
Speaker 2: of times when there's an arrest, like it kind of
Speaker 2: goes down because it's like, Okay, it's been solved, the
Speaker 2: killer is not on the run anymore. But with this
Speaker 2: it was like the opposite. I mean, it went crazy
Speaker 2: when it ended up being Luigi Mangioni.
Speaker 1: He has become a martyr to a lot of people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's like an obsession, and it's interesting. It's almost
Speaker 2: mainstream in a way. It's not like it's, oh, there's
Speaker 2: this weird, crazy cult and people who aren't showing their
Speaker 2: faces doing this. It's like some people that I even know.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's the same for you who
Speaker 2: have reposted some of these videos. You know, a lot
Speaker 2: of people think he's really attractive, and I think a
Speaker 2: lot of people have had bad experiences with their health
Speaker 2: insurance and this is sort of an outlet for that.
Speaker 3: But it is disturbing.
Speaker 2: Have you ever seen so many photos come out of
Speaker 2: someone right away, in terms of they took a photo
Speaker 2: of him in the jail, they took a photo of
Speaker 2: him outside, they took a photo of him like while
Speaker 2: he was sitting in his jail cell that they release.
Speaker 2: I've never seen them an these photos like that. And
Speaker 2: then when he arrived in New York City, it was
Speaker 2: literally like a movie. I mean, you've got the mayor
Speaker 2: there and the way they were there that.
Speaker 1: Felt totally unnecessary, That felt like it was slimy. Eric,
Speaker 1: I agree. I thought that that was a slimy move
Speaker 1: from obviously for attention.
Speaker 2: And why so many body? I mean there were like
Speaker 2: people in swat gear, and I think they were trying
Speaker 2: to make.
Speaker 3: It into a scene.
Speaker 1: Yes, And I think that those guys just wanted to
Speaker 1: be a part of a big story. They wanted their
Speaker 1: photo taken. He looks like an apostle. He looks like
Speaker 1: he is being walked right into his crucifixion. Yes, surrounded
Speaker 1: by apostles and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I saw some videos actually where they made
Speaker 2: him into Jesus. Yeah, and you wonder what he's thinking, right,
Speaker 2: is this the moment he was waiting for, like to
Speaker 2: get this kind of attention.
Speaker 1: And then it turns out that the alleged shooter highly educated.
Speaker 1: He's a great speaker. A lot of people think that
Speaker 1: he's very good looking, and he's not in a very
Speaker 1: apparent way leaning one direction or another in terms of
Speaker 1: political parties. And I think that that made the story
Speaker 1: a lot more nuanced. Some people were imagining that this
Speaker 1: was someone who was very liberal, and it does speak
Speaker 1: to the climate that we are in today. And I
Speaker 1: think it's there's something about not viewing people one direction
Speaker 1: or another about this story that I think is important.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. And I think when the suspect
Speaker 2: name comes out, we start in the newsroom searching. You know,
Speaker 2: You've got researchers and people. Everybody's trying to figure out
Speaker 2: who this guy is, who.
Speaker 3: The family is.
Speaker 2: And usually pretty soon you figure out like, oh, there's
Speaker 2: he had this previous criminal charge, or oh something bad
Speaker 2: happened or something. It was just so weird to everything
Speaker 2: was great about this this guy everything, and we started
Speaker 2: to I interviewed people very early on that right after
Speaker 2: the arrest that went to high school with him. He
Speaker 2: went to this prominent boarding school outside Baltimore, forty thousand
Speaker 2: dollars a year, really hard to get into, and he
Speaker 2: was the valedictorian, so he was at the top of
Speaker 2: the class. He was a really really good wrestler, but
Speaker 2: he was like a nice guy. They all said he
Speaker 2: wasn't He wasn't like bullying people. You know how sometimes
Speaker 2: those really cool, popular kids are like jerks.
Speaker 3: He wasn't like that.
Speaker 1: It's it's really rare. I was trying to think of.
Speaker 1: There's other stories, and sometimes people love to say no
Speaker 1: one expected no one expected it. But there's always someone.
Speaker 1: There's always some girl who's saying, actually, he was really weird,
Speaker 1: or someone in their class who says, this person was
Speaker 1: really off. And we have not heard that at all. No,
Speaker 1: not in not in it's breaking all the all the
Speaker 1: molds that I could have expected.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Not.
Speaker 2: In high school, we interviewed people that he went to
Speaker 2: pen with. You know, we got two engineering degrees there.
Speaker 2: He got his bachelors and his masters, again described as great.
Speaker 2: He lived in Hawaii for quite some time at like
Speaker 2: a surfing hostel, and everyone he lived with their said
Speaker 2: the same thing. He was the leader of the book club.
Speaker 2: He was like everybody's best friend.
Speaker 1: Was the reaction on social media? How did that translate
Speaker 1: in the newsroom? How did they interpret that?
Speaker 2: It's interesting. Some of our bosses are so shocked by
Speaker 2: the people who love him and these fans that he has.
Speaker 2: And I think some of the younger people are kind
Speaker 2: of like understanding of it more as weird as that is,
Speaker 2: and they don't agree with it. But I think I think, like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe it's generationals I just think like
Speaker 2: some of the older people are more shocked by this,
Speaker 2: like admiration for him, right.
Speaker 1: I imagine that it would be a tricky story to cover
Speaker 1: when you're balancing the reality of what's happening on social
Speaker 1: media and also needing to deliver the facts of the case.
Speaker 2: It is too because you kind of you know, when
Speaker 2: you're covering someone he used of doing something so horrible,
Speaker 2: a lot of times you lean into the bad things
Speaker 2: about the person because now they've become an accused killer.
Speaker 2: Whereas with him, I remember, even after a couple of
Speaker 2: my live shots, thinking like I just I feel like
Speaker 2: I'm describing him is so like such a good person,
Speaker 2: you know. But everyone we were interviewing was saying that
Speaker 2: I didn't interview anyone who said anything bad Bryan.
Speaker 1: He is alleged yea. And I think that people forget
Speaker 1: that he is the alleged shooter. So I think you
Speaker 1: are reporting on him as you're hearing him to.
Speaker 3: Be and I, of course yeah.
Speaker 2: But the evidence, I mean, the evidence is pretty overwhelming,
Speaker 2: the manifesto. If the police are telling the truth, he
Speaker 2: had a gun, you got bullets with him.
Speaker 1: I have so many questions around that, and it makes
Speaker 1: me think of all the conspiracy theories that I don't
Speaker 1: think that they're going to stop anytime soon.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's always so many conspiracy theories with these
Speaker 2: cases now. I think people almost it's like a hobby
Speaker 2: for people to just come up with every crazy possibility
Speaker 2: that they can think of, and then, like you said,
Speaker 2: they posted on Reddit and people talk meant and there's
Speaker 2: been so many.
Speaker 1: I mean, the eyebrows. The eyebrows are the only one
Speaker 1: that I can't I have a hard time connecting the
Speaker 1: dots between him and all the photos that we saw
Speaker 1: when they were looking for sus.
Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like all those photos are actually him.
Speaker 2: I think that they were just looking for people with
Speaker 2: a hoodie right at that point the matchup. But again,
Speaker 2: if you go back now to the evidence that they have,
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a pretty good case in terms of
Speaker 2: he had the same gun on him. Police are telling
Speaker 2: the truth, which why would they be lying the bullets,
Speaker 2: the manifesto, the I D the ID, and I mean
Speaker 2: what he screamed out outside the.
Speaker 1: Courthouse, he didn't say I'm innocent. So this is not
Speaker 1: going away anytime soon. It's only good to get bigger.
Speaker 2: What's interesting though, Sloan, as we talk about it moving
Speaker 2: into this year and all the things coming up with
Speaker 2: the Luigi Mangioni, we are not going to see him
Speaker 2: for while, which is kind of interesting. You know, we
Speaker 2: saw the crazy purp walks and all the photos and video,
Speaker 2: but now that it's federal, you know, there's no cameras
Speaker 2: allowed in federal court.
Speaker 1: What do you think of the federal charges.
Speaker 2: I was surprised. I wasn't expecting it. I think a
Speaker 2: lot of people think that he was overcharged just because
Speaker 2: of all the attention on the case. But when you
Speaker 2: read the charges, I mean, it does make sense. I
Speaker 2: mean it brings the death penalty on the table, which
Speaker 2: is interesting because you know, if they were just state
Speaker 2: charges in New York, you know, there's no death penalty.
Speaker 1: Right now there is, Yeah, I saw yesterday, I believe
Speaker 1: this was on NBC. They're saying that there's been very
Speaker 1: few federal death penalty cases. It's where that has Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think this is seventeen since the nineteen seventies. It's
Speaker 1: very Rareteen were under Trump. So I am curious to
Speaker 1: see how that can shape things. He's facing charges in
Speaker 1: New York state and then also federally, I think the
Speaker 1: federal trial is going to happen first.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the way it works.
Speaker 2: The federal charges come first, then the New York state charges,
Speaker 2: and then there's charges in Pennsylvania too.
Speaker 3: Remember he showed a fact ID they were less serious.
Speaker 1: But we don't know when the trial will be and
Speaker 1: I think in twenty twenty five we are going to
Speaker 1: continue to hear more.
Speaker 2: And another random weird fact to keep an eye on
Speaker 2: this year is his attorney is married to Ditty's attorney.
Speaker 3: Yes, and Luigi.
Speaker 2: Mangioni and Ditty are in the same federal prison in
Speaker 2: New York City, and likely in the same wing because
Speaker 2: they have a wing where they put more high profile people.
Speaker 2: So it's just kind of strange to think about it.
Speaker 2: Oh weird, yeah, isn't it.
Speaker 1: It's so weird too because a month ago, no one
Speaker 1: knew his name, and now we're talking about how crazy
Speaker 1: it is that someone that high profile would be jailed
Speaker 1: in the same area as Diddy.
Speaker 3: It's weird.
Speaker 1: I always say, wilds.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you think about this when you're
Speaker 2: covering case, like in the beginning, like when the name
Speaker 2: first comes out. I always have a hard time remembering it,
Speaker 2: like Luigi MANGIONI, how am I going to remember that?
Speaker 2: And now it's just like we say it like it's
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: Yes, totally. I want to also talk to you about
Speaker 1: our next case, Ellen Greenberg. Ellen Greenberg's death happened. You
Speaker 1: probably don't know this so close where our office is,
Speaker 1: I mean less than less than a mile.
Speaker 5: Ellen Greenberg's body was found in the kitchen of her
Speaker 5: apartment during a blizzard in late January of twenty eleven.
Speaker 3: Port Record show.
Speaker 5: Ellen's fiance was at the gym and returned to find
Speaker 5: their Matty uncle apartment door dead bolted. After an hour
Speaker 5: of trying to reach our record show, he broke down
Speaker 5: the door to find Ellen slumped in the kitchen.
Speaker 4: She had been stabbed twenty times. Philodopia medical examiner originally
Speaker 4: ruled her matter of death a suicide, then changed it
Speaker 4: to homicide before switching it back to suicide.
Speaker 5: Since then, her parents have been fighting to get this
Speaker 5: case reopened.
Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg was found dead in twenty eleven. She was
Speaker 1: twenty seven years old. She was a school teacher in Philadelphia.
Speaker 1: And we're not going to be able to get into
Speaker 1: all the details of these cases because of the time
Speaker 1: that we have. But her fiance at the time says
Speaker 1: that the door to their apartment was locked. Eventually he
Speaker 1: has to kind of break down the door. According to
Speaker 1: her fiance Sam, he sees her unconscious, she's covered in blood,
Speaker 1: and then he calls nine on one. He is telling
Speaker 1: the nine on one operator that he has no idea
Speaker 1: what's going on. They asked him to perform CPR, kind
Speaker 1: of hesitates. He hesitates that bothers me very strange. Nine
Speaker 1: one one call, very strange. We'll play the niem on
Speaker 1: one phone call.
Speaker 4: Okay, So get a plan on her bank for her
Speaker 4: chest anyone we're sure at all.
Speaker 1: Steel down by her side.
Speaker 2: Oh listen, you can't freak out.
Speaker 5: Her shirt won't come off with the zipper.
Speaker 3: Oh she failed herself. Where she's fell all night?
Speaker 5: Well?
Speaker 1: No, her nice checking out.
Speaker 5: What it is?
Speaker 1: A nice chicking out of her?
Speaker 2: She stand herself.
Speaker 3: I guess.
Speaker 4: So I don't know where she's fell on it.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't like getting into the habit of over analyzing
Speaker 1: nine on one phone calls because I don't want to.
Speaker 1: Who knows how people will react?
Speaker 3: Very fair.
Speaker 2: First of all, this case It makes me mad that
Speaker 2: that it's gone on this long and that this has
Speaker 2: been classified as a suicide. I actually saw the the
Speaker 2: phot the real crime scene photos, which haven't been made public,
Speaker 2: but Ellen Greenberg's family lawyer showed them to me. And
Speaker 2: she's sitting in her kitchen when he, you know, the
Speaker 2: police got photos of the way she was sitting. She's
Speaker 2: up against the cabinets, and there's just this giant like
Speaker 2: seven inch steak knife just right in her heart. And
Speaker 2: it's I forget how long under the call, but it's
Speaker 2: quite a ways into this call that oh, my gosh,
Speaker 2: there's a knife.
Speaker 1: So she stabbed herself or she fell on her knife,
Speaker 1: so says she fell on.
Speaker 2: Her If you saw these pictures alone, and I wouldn't
Speaker 2: want anyone to see because they're awful, but I wanted
Speaker 2: to see them for this reason. There is no way
Speaker 2: you would miss this knife. There is no way not
Speaker 2: to mention she was stabbed twenty times in the front
Speaker 2: and in the back. And there's been medical experts, pathologists
Speaker 2: who have gone and looked at the records and even
Speaker 2: examined her spinal cord. She was stabbed in her spinal cord,
Speaker 2: which would have made her like she wouldn't have been
Speaker 2: able to keep stabbing herself.
Speaker 1: It feels like a joke to call it suicide. It's unbelievable.
Speaker 1: And what happened originally was the medical examiner ruled it
Speaker 1: a homicide homicide, yeah, and then there's this meeting with
Speaker 1: Philadelphia police and it gets changed to suicide.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which has never made sense. And you mentioned the
Speaker 2: fiance is named Sam Goldberg. I mean, look, he has
Speaker 2: never been charged of anything. Who knows if he's involved
Speaker 2: or what. But it's not a suicide. It's just not sloan.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've looked at everything. I've looked at the record.
Speaker 2: It's impossible for this woman to have killed herself. Yeah,
Speaker 2: stabbed herself twenty times and in the spinal cord.
Speaker 1: It's so strange to me for your mind to go
Speaker 1: to suicide. And again I'm projecting. I have not been
Speaker 1: in this situation. I don't know what it's like to
Speaker 1: be in shock. But if I walked into my apartment
Speaker 1: and I saw my fiance on the floor covered in
Speaker 1: blood with a knife in their chest, and he says
Speaker 1: on the nine on one call, no, no one broke in.
Speaker 1: How can you know that right away. I mean, my
Speaker 1: mind would go to so many other places. I feel
Speaker 1: really bothered by and maybe this is part of twenty eleven,
Speaker 1: just because she was on prescribe medication, that this was
Speaker 1: seen as someone who was mentally ill.
Speaker 2: I mean, listen, they thought it was a homicide at first, right,
Speaker 2: they called it a crime scene. You mentioned the blizzard.
Speaker 2: I think that's important because I don't think like as
Speaker 2: many police officers were able to get out there and
Speaker 2: detectives initially, but they called it a homicide. Police met
Speaker 2: with a medical examiner. It got changed to suicide. But
Speaker 2: even since then, the medical examiner has said has considered
Speaker 2: changing it back to homicide, and at one point even
Speaker 2: told one of the prosecutors, I intend to change it
Speaker 2: back to homicide. I agree, but for some reason, it's
Speaker 2: just never happened, right, and no one will say why.
Speaker 2: I mean, she was a school teacher, she was a
Speaker 2: wonderful woman, but it was just little things. You remember.
Speaker 2: One of the friends told me like she was obsessed
Speaker 2: with her hair. Ellen, she was really into her hair,
Speaker 2: and they're like, if she was going to kill herself
Speaker 2: when she never there is no way she would have
Speaker 2: stabbed because it was all in the back of the head,
Speaker 2: in the hair.
Speaker 3: They're like, she would have never done that.
Speaker 2: Yeah to her hair, which they're just like, as her
Speaker 2: best friend, and I just know that that's not the
Speaker 2: way she would have done it.
Speaker 1: I always think about with the snow, her family couldn't
Speaker 1: get out right away to be with her. You've spent
Speaker 1: time with them, right, what was that like?
Speaker 3: Hard?
Speaker 2: They've been fighting for so long. They've spent almost a
Speaker 2: million dollars of their own money for lawyer fees, just fighting, fighting, fighting.
Speaker 2: They're suing the city now, they're suing police, trying to
Speaker 2: claim that there's a cover up, and just fighting to
Speaker 2: try to get the case reopened. And everybody, you know,
Speaker 2: they hire all of these experts and pathologists who all
Speaker 2: say the same thing, there's no way it could be
Speaker 2: a suicide. But for some reason, the city of Philadelphia
Speaker 2: just has dug their heels.
Speaker 1: In Pennsylvania is part of the reason why people are
Speaker 1: talking about the story again because of Joshapiro. He's the
Speaker 1: governor of Pennsylvania, seen as potentially a possible VP pick
Speaker 1: for the Democratic Party, but he was attorney general, right
Speaker 1: and they turned it over to him, and he kept
Speaker 1: the ruling status quo.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's always been very upsetting to the family
Speaker 2: and I was even there. So there's two things that
Speaker 2: are ongoing now with this case. One is they're suing
Speaker 2: the city in Philadelphia police and there was a hearing.
Speaker 2: I was just at was so weird to be in
Speaker 2: the courtroom because they hear there's Allen's parents and they
Speaker 2: have their lawyer and the little legal team, and then
Speaker 2: on the other side of the room is just like
Speaker 2: all these lawyers of the City of Philadelphia, like they're
Speaker 2: fighting the City of Philadelphia. The City of Philadelphia does
Speaker 2: not want like to release records. I don't. I mean,
Speaker 2: their lawyer thinks that maybe it was just a botched
Speaker 2: investigation and now they're just trying to cover it up. Really,
Speaker 2: the only thing they can do at this point to
Speaker 2: sue them for their pain and suffering and saying you've
Speaker 2: caused all this pain and suffering by covering this up
Speaker 2: for so long. But then they're also taking this to
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court in Pennsylvania, which is a really big deal.
Speaker 2: It almost never happens. The Supreme Court took the case,
Speaker 2: which is huge, and so they're going to hear it
Speaker 2: in the beginning of this year, and that's going to
Speaker 2: be a really big deal because the Supreme Court is
Speaker 2: going to have to decide whether or not Ellen's parents
Speaker 2: have the right to challenge the cause of death.
Speaker 1: Initially, they said that there was no sign of struggle,
Speaker 1: which was part of the decision to keep the cause
Speaker 1: of death as suicide.
Speaker 2: Right, and they just didn't think there was a way,
Speaker 2: you know, I think the part was on the third
Speaker 2: or fourth floor and then the door was locked, they said,
Speaker 2: so they thought there was no way for anyone to
Speaker 2: have even gotten into the killer.
Speaker 1: But she did have bruises on her body.
Speaker 3: I see, I saw the pictures. She did have a
Speaker 3: lot of bruises.
Speaker 2: There's something that there's no sign of struggleslow and this
Speaker 2: is just one of those there's something we don't know.
Speaker 3: There's a reason.
Speaker 2: Again, was it just shoddy police work in the beginning
Speaker 2: and then they were trying to cover up for the
Speaker 2: one before that one? But you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Or is there something more going on where they trying
Speaker 2: to protect someone. I don't know, but there's no question
Speaker 2: that it is not a suicide and that this family
Speaker 2: has just I mean, there's just been an injustice.
Speaker 1: What do you say to them when you're with her parents.
Speaker 2: I promise them that I won't stop covering it, and
Speaker 2: that's all you really can do. I mean, that will
Speaker 2: stay on it, that will we won't give up. We'll
Speaker 2: keep doing the stories. Yeah, and I think that gives
Speaker 2: them some Yeah, they've been abandoned by the police and
Speaker 2: people for so long.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg is a case that in twenty twenty five,
Speaker 1: I'm hopeful that there will be some movement forward.
Speaker 2: Even though this is happened in twenty eleven, I hope
Speaker 2: they still get justice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, truly, I want to talk to you about Brian Coworker.
Speaker 1: We're having a trial this year in August. Can you
Speaker 1: just set up for everyone what happened?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So basically, you know, these four University of Idaho
Speaker 2: students were asleep in their beds in Moscow, Idaho, and
Speaker 2: they were just savagely stabbed to death in the night,
Speaker 2: and there was a massive man hunt. No one knew
Speaker 2: who did it. You know, the country was really just
Speaker 2: perplexed and into this story. And then Brian Coburger was arrested.
Speaker 2: He was getting his PhD in criminology at Washington State
Speaker 2: which isn't far from University of Idaho where this happened.
Speaker 2: Probably about twenty minutes he was arrested, and it's just
Speaker 2: sort of dragged on for a couple of years in
Speaker 2: terms of the court process, and now there will finally
Speaker 2: be a trial in August.
Speaker 1: I want you to tell the story about when you
Speaker 1: first got a tip about coworker. Yeah, I'm just used
Speaker 1: to tell that a lot.
Speaker 2: No, No, there's just so there's so much with Coburger.
Speaker 2: It was like my life for yeah, it's still lives.
Speaker 1: But because you you lived there, you moved there. What
Speaker 1: it's like to be embedded in a story like that,
Speaker 1: You just.
Speaker 2: Become obsessed, especially because you know there was no arrest
Speaker 2: for so long, and there was I mean again, I
Speaker 2: became close to the families. These were just innocent kids,
Speaker 2: innocent college kids, and you know, just I became obsessed
Speaker 2: with trying to figure out what happened. And we mentioned
Speaker 2: like the army of people online, like you know, the
Speaker 2: whole country and world was like obsessed with it. So
Speaker 2: it was really an intense time. And uh, I got
Speaker 2: this tip. And I don't want to like give away
Speaker 2: too much because I don't want to give away any
Speaker 2: sources or anything. But I got this tip to come
Speaker 2: to Pennsylvania because there had been an arrest and it
Speaker 2: was it was from someone that worked within the jail system.
Speaker 2: And that's what's so interesting, Like, you know a lot
Speaker 2: of people have like these high up law enforcement sources,
Speaker 2: and I have some of them, you know, But for me,
Speaker 2: like the people who always come through for me are
Speaker 2: just like regular people that I've met on social media
Speaker 2: who know someone or they just contact me directly, and
Speaker 2: that's kind of what happened in this situation. And they
Speaker 2: were just like, you need to get to Pennsylvania right away,
Speaker 2: Like you know, it was just a random message on
Speaker 2: social media.
Speaker 1: So I said, what's your friend is you got a DM?
Speaker 3: DM?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I talked to the person and got on
Speaker 2: the plane and that's how we were the first ones
Speaker 2: to break it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I remember on the other side things being in the
Speaker 1: newsroom and hearing and did it's being sent to Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: I'm like, why is it? You can't pull him because
Speaker 1: none of us knew right away why exactly you were
Speaker 1: going to Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I remember telling my boss like I think I need
Speaker 2: to go to Pennsylvania. I'm not positive, but I have
Speaker 2: a really strong feeling that this is going to be it.
Speaker 2: So we went and then the you know, the arrest happened,
Speaker 2: or the arrest had already happened, but it came out
Speaker 2: that he was locked up, and it was just it
Speaker 2: was crazy. I went out to their house, to his
Speaker 2: parents house where he was arrested. It's kind of another
Speaker 2: crazy story, kind of to like sneak into the gated
Speaker 2: community there because they lived in a gated community, which
Speaker 2: again is just kind of my style. Like every you know,
Speaker 2: all the other reporters are outside, Like, can someone get
Speaker 2: me into the gated community?
Speaker 1: How did you sneak in?
Speaker 3: Again?
Speaker 2: Someone messaged me on x Twitter at the time and said, oh,
Speaker 2: I live in the neighborhood. Just FYI Like I'm and
Speaker 2: I just I wrote her back, I'm like, can you
Speaker 2: take me in? Like can we meet at the gas
Speaker 2: station down the street. And so she met me. I
Speaker 2: got in her car and she drove me in and
Speaker 2: took me to their house and like the front window
Speaker 2: was all bashed because you know, the police had busted inside.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I videoed.
Speaker 2: And there's been a few times I've done things when
Speaker 2: maybe I went a little too far. This might have
Speaker 2: been one of those times.
Speaker 3: It was so dark.
Speaker 2: I went up to their door and like knocked on
Speaker 2: the door and videoed and they were inside like saying leave, leave.
Speaker 2: And some people got mad at me for that because
Speaker 2: people felt for his parents. You know, it wasn't there
Speaker 2: fault and I was banging on their door like in
Speaker 2: the middle of the night. But you know, it's like
Speaker 2: you kind of have to do it. You never know,
Speaker 2: people want to talk to sometimes.
Speaker 1: Right, that is the thing. Sometimes people want to answer
Speaker 1: the door. It happens a lot. Yeah, it's really unbelievable, Brian.
Speaker 1: And then you're it's not like it ends for you there.
Speaker 1: You're just embedded in the story.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean we followed him back to you know, they
Speaker 2: transported him back to Idaho, and I, like I said,
Speaker 2: I go to most of the court hearings. It's interesting
Speaker 2: the trial has been moved.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It was it was in Moscow, Idaho, which is just
Speaker 2: this little baby college town, little small courthouse, uh, And
Speaker 2: they were worried they wouldn't be able to get a
Speaker 2: fair jury there. So it's been moved to Boise, which
Speaker 2: is a you know bigger city, and so that's where
Speaker 2: the trial will be in August and Boise Wow, which
Speaker 2: is hard for the families. They have to travel there.
Speaker 2: It's probably going to take two months the trial.
Speaker 1: I'm so curious what his defense is going to say.
Speaker 2: I think it's going to be a crazy trial because
Speaker 2: there's been a gag orders. So we know the basics
Speaker 2: from the probable cause affidavit that came out when they
Speaker 2: arrested him, but there are all sorts of questions about
Speaker 2: whether he knew the victims and what led up to
Speaker 2: the murders, and like all of that stuff has remained
Speaker 2: under seal, right.
Speaker 1: And I just want to give more background for people.
Speaker 1: So there's no clear connection, no direct clear connection between
Speaker 1: Coburger and the.
Speaker 2: Victim, not that we know of.
Speaker 1: No, And what's believed at this time is that he
Speaker 1: was possibly stalking.
Speaker 3: Them, possibly yeah, and stocking.
Speaker 1: We don't know why, why them.
Speaker 2: One theory is, you know, he and I've reported this
Speaker 2: and interviewed people, you know, he had a rough time
Speaker 2: with women, rejection at times, and then he was really
Speaker 2: awful to some women and even got kicked out of
Speaker 2: a bar once because he was just awful to this
Speaker 2: one female bartender. So there's one theory that you know,
Speaker 2: he just had this like hatred for women from rejection, right.
Speaker 2: But then there's also he was getting his PhD in criminology.
Speaker 2: He had done a survey about what it felt like
Speaker 2: for people when they committed crimes. So some people think
Speaker 2: he was trying to get into the mind.
Speaker 1: Of I don't buy that. Maybe when he was doing
Speaker 1: the survey, he was trying to get into the mind
Speaker 1: of a killer. I don't think that's the reason why
Speaker 1: he killed. I don't think he was living out some
Speaker 1: fantasy of the perfect crime. To me, that just feels
Speaker 1: like too much of a game. It feels personal. I
Speaker 1: just don't know what the connection is between him and
Speaker 1: the victims. And you can see from his phone records
Speaker 1: you kept driving by their place.
Speaker 3: That's what the prosecution says.
Speaker 2: The defense has said, oh, you know, it was pinging
Speaker 2: in that area because he liked to go.
Speaker 3: On drives and stargaze.
Speaker 2: So that's one thing that's come out that could be
Speaker 2: the defense interesting. It's going to be interesting because they
Speaker 2: you know, they found the knife sheath in the house.
Speaker 2: That was the big connection. He allegedly left the knife
Speaker 2: sheath behind and then they found a piece of DNA
Speaker 2: on the knife sheath that connected back to him. But
Speaker 2: the way they did the DNA testing is like really
Speaker 2: experimental these days. The defense says it's called investigative genetic genealogy,
Speaker 2: and basically they got the piece of DNA off the
Speaker 2: knife sheath and then like you know, like twenty three
Speaker 2: and meters and you can hear those things. They used
Speaker 2: that database to try to figure out who the DNA
Speaker 2: belonged to.
Speaker 1: Which hasn't been like the Golden State Killer.
Speaker 2: Which it hasn't been done a lot though, And I
Speaker 2: can already tell that the defense that's going to be
Speaker 2: something they really go after, like the science of that
Speaker 2: and how accurate it is.
Speaker 3: But there's a lot. I think there's a lot.
Speaker 2: We don't know. The prosecution might have a lot that
Speaker 2: we don't know, right because of Again, well that's why
Speaker 2: I think it's going to be a really interesting trial.
Speaker 2: I think it's going to be one of those trials
Speaker 2: where there's just a ton of new information comes out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. I also think he just has a
Speaker 1: certain look about him that he is so haunting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's intense, intense. I mean I've been in the
Speaker 2: same room as a lot of times for you know.
Speaker 3: For these years.
Speaker 2: That's like it's awkward, especially when it was in Moscow,
Speaker 2: Idahope before it recently got moved to Boise, so the
Speaker 2: families would come in for the big hearings and he
Speaker 2: sits so close to them, I mean, because it's just awkward.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like the one one victim Kaylee, her sister came
Speaker 2: to one of the hearings and had had a baby,
Speaker 2: and so she brought her baby to the hearing and
Speaker 2: the baby was like I don't know, I always think
Speaker 2: back to this, it's like one of those moments I
Speaker 2: won't forget. The baby was like kind of cooing during
Speaker 2: the hearing, but like Brian Coberger was so close to them,
Speaker 2: like you know, just right over it, right, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe ten feet away, and it was just so weird,
Speaker 2: like here's the guy accused of killing your sister and
Speaker 2: you're sitting right here with your new baby, all in
Speaker 2: the same little room together. Just like you know, at
Speaker 2: certain moments, you're just like this is really intense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is it's become some sort of generational yeah,
Speaker 1: weird cosmic and I don't think cosmic in a carmel way,
Speaker 1: I mean cosmic and how did we end up here?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and families want to and I get it. I
Speaker 2: mean I luckily I haven't had anyone in my family
Speaker 2: get killed or anything. But you know, there's a real
Speaker 2: desire to go to these court hearings and to be
Speaker 2: there and show face.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense also, I think it. I mean
Speaker 1: the advice that families get is that being seen goes
Speaker 1: a long way and helps the judge and the jury
Speaker 1: to understand the more. That's part of the whole judicial
Speaker 1: system that's so awful kind of the spectacle.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's true.
Speaker 2: I mean if you if you're the judge and you
Speaker 2: see the family member sitting right there crying, you probably
Speaker 2: are going to think to yourself, look what this person
Speaker 2: may have done to this thing. You know, of course
Speaker 2: you make your decisions.
Speaker 1: They're a human being, you know, a judge is not
Speaker 1: a computer. It's it's wild, Brian. I know that we're
Speaker 1: all going to be watching you coank trial, and I'm
Speaker 1: just so grateful that you joined us today. Of course,
Speaker 1: thank you for helping us to kind of get a
Speaker 1: sense and understand the worries that we can look out
Speaker 1: for and also just revealing more behind the scenes of
Speaker 1: your life and what it's been like.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to this bonus episode of American Homicide.
Speaker 1: You can contact the American Homicide team by emailing us
Speaker 1: at American Homicide Pod at gmail dot com. That's American
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