1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Before we begin today, I want to say our thoughts 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: are with everyone in Los Angeles grappling with the devastating wildfires. 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: This episode was recorded before the fires began, but I 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: felt they would not be right to not acknowledge the 5 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: current events. It's a stark reminder of how fragile life 6 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: can be. Our hearts are with you. This is Sloane 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: Glass post of American homicide. In this episode, we're doing 8 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: something different. Rather than look back at cases, we're looking ahead. 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: It's the start of a new year, and we have 10 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: highlighted three cases we believe will define true crime in 11 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. To discuss the status and implications of 12 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: these cases, I am joined today by Brian Enton. Brian 13 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: is the senior national correspondent at News Nation. He's a 14 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: former colleague of mine and a friend. Brian is an 15 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: incredible journalist and he has personally covered all of these stories. 16 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: The first is a story that captured the nation's attention 17 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: at the end of the year, the killing of United 18 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Luigi Mangioni has been charged in 19 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: that case and has pled not guilty. Brian and I 20 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: discuss what is next for Mangioni. Our second case involves 21 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 1: the mysterious death of Ellen Greenberg in twenty eleven. Ellen 22 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: was found with twenty stab wounds. Her death was curiously 23 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: ruled to be a suicide, even though many of those 24 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: wounds were in her back. After multiple appeals and legal battles, 25 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court has agreed to review that 26 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: suicide ruling. This year. For our third case, we discussed 27 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: the upcoming trial of Brian Coberger, the man accused of 28 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: killing four University of Idaho students in twenty twenty two. 29 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: Brian Enton is an expert on the Coburger case and 30 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: lets us know what we can expect. Here is my 31 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: conversation with Brian Brian Entton, thank you for doing this 32 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: episode of American Homicide with me. 33 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for having me son. It's 34 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 2: so cool to be here with you. 35 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: I like to do all my research for true crime 36 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: on Reddit, as we all do. Right, That's where I 37 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:16,799 Speaker 1: like to see what are the people saying. It's a 38 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: vibe check. Almost every story I look up, someone has 39 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: commented well, according to Brian Anton. According to Brian Anton. 40 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 2: Well, and the thing with Reddit and with people on 41 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 2: TikTok too, and on x you have people who are 42 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 2: so interested in the cases and so invested, and they'll 43 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 2: stay up all night going through public records and finding 44 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: out things that even I didn't know about family members 45 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 2: and people connected to the cases, and then they'll send 46 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 2: me tips. So it's it's like, sometimes I feel like 47 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 2: I have this little army of people helping me, and 48 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 2: you can find really interesting stuff on Reddit you don't 49 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 2: even see on the news. 50 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: Are you still news daddy? Is that still Yeah? 51 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 2: That's still a thing, Yeah, news Daddy. And I used 52 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 2: to be so embarrassed of it. I don't know where 53 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 2: it came from, And now I'm just like, well, I 54 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 2: guess it's a you know, it's a thing. 55 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 3: I guess you. 56 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: Know, there's a comfort level that I think you've been 57 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,239 Speaker 1: able to give to people around really hard stories. Yeah. 58 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 2: I think that they just feel like what you said, 59 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 2: that I'm just normal. You try to be professional where 60 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 2: journalists you want to, you know, stick to the facts, 61 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 2: but you'd be lying if you just try to say 62 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 2: you never got emotional or never felt anger, or never 63 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 2: related to some of the family members. 64 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 3: That kind of thing. 65 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: I always saw that as an advantage. I thought it 66 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: was so strange when people to say, well, you have 67 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: to leave that at the door, you have to remove 68 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: yourself from it. 69 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 2: Or even that you can't help people, like it's just 70 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 2: not who I am. Like, you know, you'll go out 71 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: and you'll meet these families and they might need help 72 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 2: with something like hey, do you know someone. 73 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 3: Who does this? 74 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 2: Or you know we're really low on money, right, I 75 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 2: don't know. I just I can't just bet well line 76 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 2: is drawn. I'm a journalist. I mean, that's why I 77 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 2: can't do it. 78 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: Everything we do here is trying further in cases, these 79 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: families deserve that it doesn't just end when everyone else 80 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: is forgetting and moving on, and they deserve to have 81 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: those connections and for people to do investigative work to 82 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: try to see if they're something that someone else hasn't 83 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: picked up on. 84 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. 85 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 2: I try to be real and like respect the families 86 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 2: and what they're going through. And you know, when you're 87 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 2: in the middle of one of these cases, like with Coburger, 88 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 2: like before the arrest, you know, when the community is 89 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 2: so on edge, you just have to remember what people 90 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 2: are going through with the families are going through, and 91 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: I try not to take advantage. I mean, it's it's 92 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: not worth it for the story to be the first. 93 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: Always I would lose sleep at night if I felt 94 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 2: like I put someone through more pain than they were 95 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: already going through, you know, like with with Coburger, I 96 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 2: just remembered this one story. When I went Kayleyanzov was 97 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 2: one of the victims. I became pretty close to her 98 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 2: parents while I was an idahoe and still now, and 99 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 2: before Brian Coburger was arrested, I was at their house. 100 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 2: They lived near Quardelaine, which is a couple hours from Moscow, Idaho, 101 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 2: where the murders happened. And we were doing an interview. 102 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 2: When we were talking and they showed me that Kaylee's 103 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 2: ashes were next to Maddie's ashes. They had them next 104 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 2: to each other. Yeah, because they were friends and they 105 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 2: just both families like Maddie didn't want parent didn't want 106 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 2: to take the ashes away from Kaylee's house, you know, 107 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 2: because they that gave them comfort. And so it was 108 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 2: really like an emotional thing to see. And we shot 109 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 2: it and it was going to be a really big 110 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 2: part of our story. And when we left, Kaylee's mom 111 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: called me and said, we really don't want you to 112 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 2: show that part like we thought about it and we 113 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 2: don't want like people to think that like Maddie's family 114 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 2: doesn't care about her something, because it was the opposite. 115 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 2: That's why they kept you know. And anyway, of course, 116 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 2: no questions asked, Like I took it out, which I 117 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 2: think other people wouldn't have done that because in the 118 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 2: moment it was it was a really good, you know, 119 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 2: exclusive element that no one else had. But like you 120 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: were saying, when you stay on these cases for so long, 121 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 2: it's not worth upsetting them, And then I would have 122 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 2: felt terrible about it if she asked to take it, 123 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like the other crime reporters 124 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 2: and from the other TV networks and stuff will come in, 125 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: you know how it is. They'll parachute in for a 126 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,559 Speaker 2: couple of days, they'll do some live shots and stories, 127 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 2: and then they'll leave war with like Coburger and some 128 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 2: of the others. I've just stayed in those places, basically 129 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 2: moved to Idaho for a couple months and then been 130 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 2: to pretty much all of the court hearings. So I 131 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 2: think people kind of connect with that. They see that 132 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 2: I stay at these places and get really really invested. 133 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: You stay in You're real. Yeah, you're not a scavenger 134 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: in any way. You connect with you I try. 135 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 2: Someone just yesterday called me a prostitute, which I had 136 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 2: never heard. I've never heard that phrase before. But then 137 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: I ended up because I ended up. Have you ever 138 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 2: heard of that before? 139 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 3: Too? 140 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 2: And I ended up becoming friends of the guy, and 141 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: like we bonded and he was cool with me after 142 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 2: we talked. 143 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, of course I want to talk more about Coburger 144 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 1: and everything surrounding that case later. 145 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 3: OK. 146 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: Today I want us to kind of look at and 147 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: think about the true crime cases that we should keep 148 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: an eye out for in twenty twenty five. And also 149 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: you are able to explain to everyone what it's been 150 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: like to cover some of these stories in a newsroom 151 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: environment in the field. It's impossible to start this without 152 00:06:55,560 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: talking about Luigi Mangioni and what has happened in the 153 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: United Healthcare CEO shooting. 154 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 4: Luigi man Jioni is pleaded not guilty to charges in 155 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 4: the cold blooded killing of the United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. 156 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: This is a story. I've never seen anything like this. 157 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: When the video came out and you had like a 158 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 2: prominent CEO shot right there on the street, and it 159 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 2: was clear that he was targeted. I think the interest 160 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 2: level was really really high then, even we were covering 161 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 2: every single day and people were trying to figure out 162 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: who it was. 163 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 3: We got a tip actually. 164 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 2: That the killer might be from Atlanta, so they flew 165 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: me to Atlanta. And this is what people don't realize, 166 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: Like I was just sort of chilling in Atlanta because 167 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 2: we really thought I don't know if you remember that 168 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 2: they said that the bus went from Atlanta, and we 169 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 2: had some other tips, and we were even talk about Reddit. 170 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: People were sending me photos of people in the Atlanta 171 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: area that looked like the guy in the surveillance video. 172 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 2: We would go drive by their houses like we were 173 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 2: really investigating the Atlanta area. So I was in Atlanta 174 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 2: and then we got the call that they've got a 175 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: person of interest in Pennsylvania. So got the first flight 176 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 2: to Pennsylvania. But the newsroom was just was crazy. And 177 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 2: I think what's interesting is there was so much interest 178 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 2: in the story even before the arrest. And a lot 179 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 2: of times when there's an arrest, like it kind of 180 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 2: goes down because it's like, Okay, it's been solved, the 181 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 2: killer is not on the run anymore. But with this 182 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 2: it was like the opposite. I mean, it went crazy 183 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: when it ended up being Luigi Mangioni. 184 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: He has become a martyr to a lot of people. 185 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's like an obsession, and it's interesting. It's almost 186 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 2: mainstream in a way. It's not like it's, oh, there's 187 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 2: this weird, crazy cult and people who aren't showing their 188 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 2: faces doing this. It's like some people that I even know. 189 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 2: I don't know if it's the same for you who 190 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 2: have reposted some of these videos. You know, a lot 191 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 2: of people think he's really attractive, and I think a 192 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 2: lot of people have had bad experiences with their health 193 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 2: insurance and this is sort of an outlet for that. 194 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 3: But it is disturbing. 195 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 2: Have you ever seen so many photos come out of 196 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: someone right away, in terms of they took a photo 197 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 2: of him in the jail, they took a photo of 198 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 2: him outside, they took a photo of him like while 199 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 2: he was sitting in his jail cell that they release. 200 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 2: I've never seen them an these photos like that. And 201 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: then when he arrived in New York City, it was 202 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 2: literally like a movie. I mean, you've got the mayor 203 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: there and the way they were there that. 204 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: Felt totally unnecessary, That felt like it was slimy. Eric, 205 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: I agree. I thought that that was a slimy move 206 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: from obviously for attention. 207 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: And why so many body? I mean there were like 208 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 2: people in swat gear, and I think they were trying 209 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 2: to make. 210 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 3: It into a scene. 211 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: Yes, And I think that those guys just wanted to 212 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: be a part of a big story. They wanted their 213 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: photo taken. He looks like an apostle. He looks like 214 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: he is being walked right into his crucifixion. Yes, surrounded 215 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 1: by apostles and. 216 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I saw some videos actually where they made 217 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 2: him into Jesus. Yeah, and you wonder what he's thinking, right, 218 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 2: is this the moment he was waiting for, like to 219 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 2: get this kind of attention. 220 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: And then it turns out that the alleged shooter highly educated. 221 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: He's a great speaker. A lot of people think that 222 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: he's very good looking, and he's not in a very 223 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: apparent way leaning one direction or another in terms of 224 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: political parties. And I think that that made the story 225 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: a lot more nuanced. Some people were imagining that this 226 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: was someone who was very liberal, and it does speak 227 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: to the climate that we are in today. And I 228 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: think it's there's something about not viewing people one direction 229 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 1: or another about this story that I think is important. 230 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. And I think when the suspect 231 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 2: name comes out, we start in the newsroom searching. You know, 232 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 2: You've got researchers and people. Everybody's trying to figure out 233 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: who this guy is, who. 234 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 3: The family is. 235 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 2: And usually pretty soon you figure out like, oh, there's 236 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 2: he had this previous criminal charge, or oh something bad 237 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 2: happened or something. It was just so weird to everything 238 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 2: was great about this this guy everything, and we started 239 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 2: to I interviewed people very early on that right after 240 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 2: the arrest that went to high school with him. He 241 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 2: went to this prominent boarding school outside Baltimore, forty thousand 242 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: dollars a year, really hard to get into, and he 243 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 2: was the valedictorian, so he was at the top of 244 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 2: the class. He was a really really good wrestler, but 245 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 2: he was like a nice guy. They all said he 246 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: wasn't He wasn't like bullying people. You know how sometimes 247 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 2: those really cool, popular kids are like jerks. 248 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 3: He wasn't like that. 249 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: It's it's really rare. I was trying to think of. 250 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: There's other stories, and sometimes people love to say no 251 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: one expected no one expected it. But there's always someone. 252 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: There's always some girl who's saying, actually, he was really weird, 253 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: or someone in their class who says, this person was 254 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: really off. And we have not heard that at all. No, 255 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: not in not in it's breaking all the all the 256 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: molds that I could have expected. 257 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. 258 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 5: Not. 259 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 2: In high school, we interviewed people that he went to 260 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 2: pen with. You know, we got two engineering degrees there. 261 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 2: He got his bachelors and his masters, again described as great. 262 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 2: He lived in Hawaii for quite some time at like 263 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 2: a surfing hostel, and everyone he lived with their said 264 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 2: the same thing. He was the leader of the book club. 265 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 2: He was like everybody's best friend. 266 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 1: Was the reaction on social media? How did that translate 267 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: in the newsroom? How did they interpret that? 268 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 2: It's interesting. Some of our bosses are so shocked by 269 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 2: the people who love him and these fans that he has. 270 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 2: And I think some of the younger people are kind 271 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 2: of like understanding of it more as weird as that is, 272 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 2: and they don't agree with it. But I think I think, like, 273 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe it's generationals I just think like 274 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: some of the older people are more shocked by this, 275 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 2: like admiration for him, right. 276 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: I imagine that it would be a tricky story to cover 277 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: when you're balancing the reality of what's happening on social 278 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: media and also needing to deliver the facts of the case. 279 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 2: It is too because you kind of you know, when 280 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 2: you're covering someone he used of doing something so horrible, 281 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 2: a lot of times you lean into the bad things 282 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 2: about the person because now they've become an accused killer. 283 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 2: Whereas with him, I remember, even after a couple of 284 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 2: my live shots, thinking like I just I feel like 285 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 2: I'm describing him is so like such a good person, 286 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 2: you know. But everyone we were interviewing was saying that 287 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 2: I didn't interview anyone who said anything bad Bryan. 288 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: He is alleged yea. And I think that people forget 289 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: that he is the alleged shooter. So I think you 290 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 1: are reporting on him as you're hearing him to. 291 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 3: Be and I, of course yeah. 292 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 2: But the evidence, I mean, the evidence is pretty overwhelming, 293 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: the manifesto. If the police are telling the truth, he 294 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 2: had a gun, you got bullets with him. 295 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: I have so many questions around that, and it makes 296 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: me think of all the conspiracy theories that I don't 297 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: think that they're going to stop anytime soon. 298 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 2: I mean, there's always so many conspiracy theories with these 299 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 2: cases now. I think people almost it's like a hobby 300 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: for people to just come up with every crazy possibility 301 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 2: that they can think of, and then, like you said, 302 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 2: they posted on Reddit and people talk meant and there's 303 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 2: been so many. 304 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: I mean, the eyebrows. The eyebrows are the only one 305 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: that I can't I have a hard time connecting the 306 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: dots between him and all the photos that we saw 307 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: when they were looking for sus. 308 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like all those photos are actually him. 309 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 2: I think that they were just looking for people with 310 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: a hoodie right at that point the matchup. But again, 311 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 2: if you go back now to the evidence that they have, 312 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 2: I mean, it's a pretty good case in terms of 313 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 2: he had the same gun on him. Police are telling 314 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 2: the truth, which why would they be lying the bullets, 315 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 2: the manifesto, the I D the ID, and I mean 316 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 2: what he screamed out outside the. 317 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: Courthouse, he didn't say I'm innocent. So this is not 318 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: going away anytime soon. It's only good to get bigger. 319 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 2: What's interesting though, Sloan, as we talk about it moving 320 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 2: into this year and all the things coming up with 321 00:14:58,200 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 2: the Luigi Mangioni, we are not going to see him 322 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 2: for while, which is kind of interesting. You know, we 323 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 2: saw the crazy purp walks and all the photos and video, 324 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 2: but now that it's federal, you know, there's no cameras 325 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 2: allowed in federal court. 326 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: What do you think of the federal charges. 327 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 2: I was surprised. I wasn't expecting it. I think a 328 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 2: lot of people think that he was overcharged just because 329 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 2: of all the attention on the case. But when you 330 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 2: read the charges, I mean, it does make sense. I 331 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 2: mean it brings the death penalty on the table, which 332 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 2: is interesting because you know, if they were just state 333 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 2: charges in New York, you know, there's no death penalty. 334 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: Right now there is, Yeah, I saw yesterday, I believe 335 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: this was on NBC. They're saying that there's been very 336 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: few federal death penalty cases. It's where that has Yeah, 337 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: I think this is seventeen since the nineteen seventies. It's 338 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: very Rareteen were under Trump. So I am curious to 339 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: see how that can shape things. He's facing charges in 340 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: New York state and then also federally, I think the 341 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: federal trial is going to happen first. 342 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the way it works. 343 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 2: The federal charges come first, then the New York state charges, 344 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 2: and then there's charges in Pennsylvania too. 345 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 3: Remember he showed a fact ID they were less serious. 346 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: But we don't know when the trial will be and 347 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: I think in twenty twenty five we are going to 348 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: continue to hear more. 349 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 2: And another random weird fact to keep an eye on 350 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 2: this year is his attorney is married to Ditty's attorney. 351 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 3: Yes, and Luigi. 352 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 2: Mangioni and Ditty are in the same federal prison in 353 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 2: New York City, and likely in the same wing because 354 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 2: they have a wing where they put more high profile people. 355 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 2: So it's just kind of strange to think about it. 356 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 2: Oh weird, yeah, isn't it. 357 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: It's so weird too because a month ago, no one 358 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: knew his name, and now we're talking about how crazy 359 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: it is that someone that high profile would be jailed 360 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: in the same area as Diddy. 361 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 3: It's weird. 362 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: I always say, wilds. 363 00:16:58,400 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 2: I don't know if you think about this when you're 364 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 2: covering case, like in the beginning, like when the name 365 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 2: first comes out. I always have a hard time remembering it, 366 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 2: like Luigi MANGIONI, how am I going to remember that? 367 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 2: And now it's just like we say it like it's 368 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 2: you know. 369 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:26,479 Speaker 1: Yes, totally. I want to also talk to you about 370 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: our next case, Ellen Greenberg. Ellen Greenberg's death happened. You 371 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,959 Speaker 1: probably don't know this so close where our office is, 372 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: I mean less than less than a mile. 373 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 5: Ellen Greenberg's body was found in the kitchen of her 374 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 5: apartment during a blizzard in late January of twenty eleven. 375 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 3: Port Record show. 376 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 5: Ellen's fiance was at the gym and returned to find 377 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 5: their Matty uncle apartment door dead bolted. After an hour 378 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 5: of trying to reach our record show, he broke down 379 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 5: the door to find Ellen slumped in the kitchen. 380 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 4: She had been stabbed twenty times. Philodopia medical examiner originally 381 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 4: ruled her matter of death a suicide, then changed it 382 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 4: to homicide before switching it back to suicide. 383 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 5: Since then, her parents have been fighting to get this 384 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:11,719 Speaker 5: case reopened. 385 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg was found dead in twenty eleven. She was 386 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 1: twenty seven years old. She was a school teacher in Philadelphia. 387 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: And we're not going to be able to get into 388 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: all the details of these cases because of the time 389 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: that we have. But her fiance at the time says 390 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: that the door to their apartment was locked. Eventually he 391 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,159 Speaker 1: has to kind of break down the door. According to 392 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: her fiance Sam, he sees her unconscious, she's covered in blood, 393 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: and then he calls nine on one. He is telling 394 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: the nine on one operator that he has no idea 395 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: what's going on. They asked him to perform CPR, kind 396 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: of hesitates. He hesitates that bothers me very strange. Nine 397 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: one one call, very strange. We'll play the niem on 398 00:18:59,000 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: one phone call. 399 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 4: Okay, So get a plan on her bank for her 400 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 4: chest anyone we're sure at all. 401 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: Steel down by her side. 402 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 2: Oh listen, you can't freak out. 403 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 5: Her shirt won't come off with the zipper. 404 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 3: Oh she failed herself. Where she's fell all night? 405 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 5: Well? 406 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: No, her nice checking out. 407 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 5: What it is? 408 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: A nice chicking out of her? 409 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 2: She stand herself. 410 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 3: I guess. 411 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 4: So I don't know where she's fell on it. 412 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 3: I don't know. 413 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: I don't like getting into the habit of over analyzing 414 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: nine on one phone calls because I don't want to. 415 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: Who knows how people will react? 416 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 3: Very fair. 417 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 2: First of all, this case It makes me mad that 418 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 2: that it's gone on this long and that this has 419 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 2: been classified as a suicide. I actually saw the the 420 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,479 Speaker 2: phot the real crime scene photos, which haven't been made public, 421 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 2: but Ellen Greenberg's family lawyer showed them to me. And 422 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 2: she's sitting in her kitchen when he, you know, the 423 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 2: police got photos of the way she was sitting. She's 424 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: up against the cabinets, and there's just this giant like 425 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,959 Speaker 2: seven inch steak knife just right in her heart. And 426 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 2: it's I forget how long under the call, but it's 427 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 2: quite a ways into this call that oh, my gosh, 428 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 2: there's a knife. 429 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: So she stabbed herself or she fell on her knife, 430 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: so says she fell on. 431 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: Her If you saw these pictures alone, and I wouldn't 432 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 2: want anyone to see because they're awful, but I wanted 433 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 2: to see them for this reason. There is no way 434 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 2: you would miss this knife. There is no way not 435 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 2: to mention she was stabbed twenty times in the front 436 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,719 Speaker 2: and in the back. And there's been medical experts, pathologists 437 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 2: who have gone and looked at the records and even 438 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 2: examined her spinal cord. She was stabbed in her spinal cord, 439 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 2: which would have made her like she wouldn't have been 440 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 2: able to keep stabbing herself. 441 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: It feels like a joke to call it suicide. It's unbelievable. 442 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: And what happened originally was the medical examiner ruled it 443 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: a homicide homicide, yeah, and then there's this meeting with 444 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: Philadelphia police and it gets changed to suicide. 445 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, which has never made sense. And you mentioned the 446 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 2: fiance is named Sam Goldberg. I mean, look, he has 447 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 2: never been charged of anything. Who knows if he's involved 448 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 2: or what. But it's not a suicide. It's just not sloan. 449 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 2: I mean, I've looked at everything. I've looked at the record. 450 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 2: It's impossible for this woman to have killed herself. Yeah, 451 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 2: stabbed herself twenty times and in the spinal cord. 452 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: It's so strange to me for your mind to go 453 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: to suicide. And again I'm projecting. I have not been 454 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: in this situation. I don't know what it's like to 455 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: be in shock. But if I walked into my apartment 456 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: and I saw my fiance on the floor covered in 457 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: blood with a knife in their chest, and he says 458 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: on the nine on one call, no, no one broke in. 459 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: How can you know that right away. I mean, my 460 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: mind would go to so many other places. I feel 461 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 1: really bothered by and maybe this is part of twenty eleven, 462 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: just because she was on prescribe medication, that this was 463 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: seen as someone who was mentally ill. 464 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 2: I mean, listen, they thought it was a homicide at first, right, 465 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 2: they called it a crime scene. You mentioned the blizzard. 466 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 2: I think that's important because I don't think like as 467 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 2: many police officers were able to get out there and 468 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 2: detectives initially, but they called it a homicide. Police met 469 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 2: with a medical examiner. It got changed to suicide. But 470 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 2: even since then, the medical examiner has said has considered 471 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 2: changing it back to homicide, and at one point even 472 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 2: told one of the prosecutors, I intend to change it 473 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 2: back to homicide. I agree, but for some reason, it's 474 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 2: just never happened, right, and no one will say why. 475 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 2: I mean, she was a school teacher, she was a 476 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,959 Speaker 2: wonderful woman, but it was just little things. You remember. 477 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 2: One of the friends told me like she was obsessed 478 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 2: with her hair. Ellen, she was really into her hair, 479 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 2: and they're like, if she was going to kill herself 480 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 2: when she never there is no way she would have 481 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 2: stabbed because it was all in the back of the head, 482 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 2: in the hair. 483 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 3: They're like, she would have never done that. 484 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 2: Yeah to her hair, which they're just like, as her 485 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 2: best friend, and I just know that that's not the 486 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 2: way she would have done it. 487 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: I always think about with the snow, her family couldn't 488 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: get out right away to be with her. You've spent 489 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: time with them, right, what was that like? 490 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 3: Hard? 491 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 2: They've been fighting for so long. They've spent almost a 492 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 2: million dollars of their own money for lawyer fees, just fighting, fighting, fighting. 493 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 2: They're suing the city now, they're suing police, trying to 494 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 2: claim that there's a cover up, and just fighting to 495 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 2: try to get the case reopened. And everybody, you know, 496 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 2: they hire all of these experts and pathologists who all 497 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 2: say the same thing, there's no way it could be 498 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 2: a suicide. But for some reason, the city of Philadelphia 499 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 2: just has dug their heels. 500 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: In Pennsylvania is part of the reason why people are 501 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: talking about the story again because of Joshapiro. He's the 502 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: governor of Pennsylvania, seen as potentially a possible VP pick 503 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: for the Democratic Party, but he was attorney general, right 504 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: and they turned it over to him, and he kept 505 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: the ruling status quo. 506 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's always been very upsetting to the family 507 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 2: and I was even there. So there's two things that 508 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 2: are ongoing now with this case. One is they're suing 509 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 2: the city in Philadelphia police and there was a hearing. 510 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 2: I was just at was so weird to be in 511 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 2: the courtroom because they hear there's Allen's parents and they 512 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 2: have their lawyer and the little legal team, and then 513 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 2: on the other side of the room is just like 514 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 2: all these lawyers of the City of Philadelphia, like they're 515 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 2: fighting the City of Philadelphia. The City of Philadelphia does 516 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,479 Speaker 2: not want like to release records. I don't. I mean, 517 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 2: their lawyer thinks that maybe it was just a botched 518 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 2: investigation and now they're just trying to cover it up. Really, 519 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 2: the only thing they can do at this point to 520 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 2: sue them for their pain and suffering and saying you've 521 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 2: caused all this pain and suffering by covering this up 522 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 2: for so long. But then they're also taking this to 523 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court in Pennsylvania, which is a really big deal. 524 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: It almost never happens. The Supreme Court took the case, 525 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 2: which is huge, and so they're going to hear it 526 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 2: in the beginning of this year, and that's going to 527 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 2: be a really big deal because the Supreme Court is 528 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 2: going to have to decide whether or not Ellen's parents 529 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 2: have the right to challenge the cause of death. 530 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,120 Speaker 1: Initially, they said that there was no sign of struggle, 531 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: which was part of the decision to keep the cause 532 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: of death as suicide. 533 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:27,360 Speaker 2: Right, and they just didn't think there was a way, 534 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 2: you know, I think the part was on the third 535 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 2: or fourth floor and then the door was locked, they said, 536 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 2: so they thought there was no way for anyone to 537 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 2: have even gotten into the killer. 538 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: But she did have bruises on her body. 539 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 3: I see, I saw the pictures. She did have a 540 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 3: lot of bruises. 541 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 2: There's something that there's no sign of struggleslow and this 542 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 2: is just one of those there's something we don't know. 543 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:48,959 Speaker 3: There's a reason. 544 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 2: Again, was it just shoddy police work in the beginning 545 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 2: and then they were trying to cover up for the 546 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 2: one before that one? But you know what I mean? 547 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 2: Or is there something more going on where they trying 548 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 2: to protect someone. I don't know, but there's no question 549 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 2: that it is not a suicide and that this family 550 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 2: has just I mean, there's just been an injustice. 551 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: What do you say to them when you're with her parents. 552 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 2: I promise them that I won't stop covering it, and 553 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 2: that's all you really can do. I mean, that will 554 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 2: stay on it, that will we won't give up. We'll 555 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 2: keep doing the stories. Yeah, and I think that gives 556 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 2: them some Yeah, they've been abandoned by the police and 557 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 2: people for so long. 558 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 5: You know. 559 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg is a case that in twenty twenty five, 560 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: I'm hopeful that there will be some movement forward. 561 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 2: Even though this is happened in twenty eleven, I hope 562 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 2: they still get justice. 563 00:26:47,920 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, truly, I want to talk to you about Brian Coworker. 564 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: We're having a trial this year in August. Can you 565 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: just set up for everyone what happened? 566 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, So basically, you know, these four University of Idaho 567 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 2: students were asleep in their beds in Moscow, Idaho, and 568 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 2: they were just savagely stabbed to death in the night, 569 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 2: and there was a massive man hunt. No one knew 570 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,439 Speaker 2: who did it. You know, the country was really just 571 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 2: perplexed and into this story. And then Brian Coburger was arrested. 572 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 2: He was getting his PhD in criminology at Washington State 573 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 2: which isn't far from University of Idaho where this happened. 574 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 2: Probably about twenty minutes he was arrested, and it's just 575 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 2: sort of dragged on for a couple of years in 576 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 2: terms of the court process, and now there will finally 577 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:52,719 Speaker 2: be a trial in August. 578 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,239 Speaker 1: I want you to tell the story about when you 579 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 1: first got a tip about coworker. Yeah, I'm just used 580 00:27:59,280 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: to tell that a lot. 581 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 2: No, No, there's just so there's so much with Coburger. 582 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 2: It was like my life for yeah, it's still lives. 583 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: But because you you lived there, you moved there. What 584 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: it's like to be embedded in a story like that, 585 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: You just. 586 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 2: Become obsessed, especially because you know there was no arrest 587 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 2: for so long, and there was I mean again, I 588 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 2: became close to the families. These were just innocent kids, 589 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 2: innocent college kids, and you know, just I became obsessed 590 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 2: with trying to figure out what happened. And we mentioned 591 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 2: like the army of people online, like you know, the 592 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 2: whole country and world was like obsessed with it. So 593 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 2: it was really an intense time. And uh, I got 594 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 2: this tip. And I don't want to like give away 595 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 2: too much because I don't want to give away any 596 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 2: sources or anything. But I got this tip to come 597 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 2: to Pennsylvania because there had been an arrest and it 598 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 2: was it was from someone that worked within the jail system. 599 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 2: And that's what's so interesting, Like, you know a lot 600 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 2: of people have like these high up law enforcement sources, 601 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 2: and I have some of them, you know, But for me, 602 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 2: like the people who always come through for me are 603 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 2: just like regular people that I've met on social media 604 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 2: who know someone or they just contact me directly, and 605 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 2: that's kind of what happened in this situation. And they 606 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 2: were just like, you need to get to Pennsylvania right away, 607 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 2: Like you know, it was just a random message on 608 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 2: social media. 609 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: So I said, what's your friend is you got a DM? 610 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 3: DM? 611 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I talked to the person and got on 612 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 2: the plane and that's how we were the first ones 613 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 2: to break it. 614 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. 615 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: I remember on the other side things being in the 616 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: newsroom and hearing and did it's being sent to Pennsylvania. 617 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: I'm like, why is it? You can't pull him because 618 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: none of us knew right away why exactly you were 619 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: going to Pennsylvania. 620 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. 621 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: I remember telling my boss like I think I need 622 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 2: to go to Pennsylvania. I'm not positive, but I have 623 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 2: a really strong feeling that this is going to be it. 624 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 2: So we went and then the you know, the arrest happened, 625 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 2: or the arrest had already happened, but it came out 626 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 2: that he was locked up, and it was just it 627 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 2: was crazy. I went out to their house, to his 628 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 2: parents house where he was arrested. It's kind of another 629 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 2: crazy story, kind of to like sneak into the gated 630 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 2: community there because they lived in a gated community, which 631 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 2: again is just kind of my style. Like every you know, 632 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 2: all the other reporters are outside, Like, can someone get 633 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 2: me into the gated community? 634 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: How did you sneak in? 635 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 3: Again? 636 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 2: Someone messaged me on x Twitter at the time and said, oh, 637 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 2: I live in the neighborhood. Just FYI Like I'm and 638 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: I just I wrote her back, I'm like, can you 639 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 2: take me in? Like can we meet at the gas 640 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 2: station down the street. And so she met me. I 641 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 2: got in her car and she drove me in and 642 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 2: took me to their house and like the front window 643 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 2: was all bashed because you know, the police had busted inside. 644 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: Wow. 645 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I videoed. 646 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 2: And there's been a few times I've done things when 647 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 2: maybe I went a little too far. This might have 648 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 2: been one of those times. 649 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 3: It was so dark. 650 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 2: I went up to their door and like knocked on 651 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 2: the door and videoed and they were inside like saying leave, leave. 652 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 2: And some people got mad at me for that because 653 00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 2: people felt for his parents. You know, it wasn't there 654 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 2: fault and I was banging on their door like in 655 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 2: the middle of the night. But you know, it's like 656 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 2: you kind of have to do it. You never know, 657 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 2: people want to talk to sometimes. 658 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: Right, that is the thing. Sometimes people want to answer 659 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: the door. It happens a lot. Yeah, it's really unbelievable, Brian. 660 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,959 Speaker 1: And then you're it's not like it ends for you there. 661 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: You're just embedded in the story. 662 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 663 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 2: I mean we followed him back to you know, they 664 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 2: transported him back to Idaho, and I, like I said, 665 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 2: I go to most of the court hearings. It's interesting 666 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 2: the trial has been moved. 667 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 3: You know. 668 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 2: It was it was in Moscow, Idaho, which is just 669 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 2: this little baby college town, little small courthouse, uh, And 670 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 2: they were worried they wouldn't be able to get a 671 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 2: fair jury there. So it's been moved to Boise, which 672 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 2: is a you know bigger city, and so that's where 673 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 2: the trial will be in August and Boise Wow, which 674 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 2: is hard for the families. They have to travel there. 675 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 2: It's probably going to take two months the trial. 676 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: I'm so curious what his defense is going to say. 677 00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 2: I think it's going to be a crazy trial because 678 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 2: there's been a gag orders. So we know the basics 679 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 2: from the probable cause affidavit that came out when they 680 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 2: arrested him, but there are all sorts of questions about 681 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 2: whether he knew the victims and what led up to 682 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 2: the murders, and like all of that stuff has remained 683 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 2: under seal, right. 684 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: And I just want to give more background for people. 685 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: So there's no clear connection, no direct clear connection between 686 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: Coburger and the. 687 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 2: Victim, not that we know of. 688 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: No, And what's believed at this time is that he 689 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: was possibly stalking. 690 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 3: Them, possibly yeah, and stocking. 691 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: We don't know why, why them. 692 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 2: One theory is, you know, he and I've reported this 693 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 2: and interviewed people, you know, he had a rough time 694 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 2: with women, rejection at times, and then he was really 695 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 2: awful to some women and even got kicked out of 696 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 2: a bar once because he was just awful to this 697 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 2: one female bartender. So there's one theory that you know, 698 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 2: he just had this like hatred for women from rejection, right. 699 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 2: But then there's also he was getting his PhD in criminology. 700 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 2: He had done a survey about what it felt like 701 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 2: for people when they committed crimes. So some people think 702 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 2: he was trying to get into the mind. 703 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: Of I don't buy that. Maybe when he was doing 704 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: the survey, he was trying to get into the mind 705 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: of a killer. I don't think that's the reason why 706 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,479 Speaker 1: he killed. I don't think he was living out some 707 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: fantasy of the perfect crime. To me, that just feels 708 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 1: like too much of a game. It feels personal. I 709 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: just don't know what the connection is between him and 710 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: the victims. And you can see from his phone records 711 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: you kept driving by their place. 712 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 3: That's what the prosecution says. 713 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 2: The defense has said, oh, you know, it was pinging 714 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 2: in that area because he liked to go. 715 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 3: On drives and stargaze. 716 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 2: So that's one thing that's come out that could be 717 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 2: the defense interesting. It's going to be interesting because they 718 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 2: you know, they found the knife sheath in the house. 719 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 2: That was the big connection. He allegedly left the knife 720 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 2: sheath behind and then they found a piece of DNA 721 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 2: on the knife sheath that connected back to him. But 722 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 2: the way they did the DNA testing is like really 723 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 2: experimental these days. The defense says it's called investigative genetic genealogy, 724 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 2: and basically they got the piece of DNA off the 725 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 2: knife sheath and then like you know, like twenty three 726 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,240 Speaker 2: and meters and you can hear those things. They used 727 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 2: that database to try to figure out who the DNA 728 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 2: belonged to. 729 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: Which hasn't been like the Golden State Killer. 730 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 2: Which it hasn't been done a lot though, And I 731 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 2: can already tell that the defense that's going to be 732 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 2: something they really go after, like the science of that 733 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 2: and how accurate it is. 734 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 3: But there's a lot. I think there's a lot. 735 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 2: We don't know. The prosecution might have a lot that 736 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 2: we don't know, right because of Again, well that's why 737 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 2: I think it's going to be a really interesting trial. 738 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 2: I think it's going to be one of those trials 739 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,439 Speaker 2: where there's just a ton of new information comes out. 740 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. I also think he just has a 741 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,720 Speaker 1: certain look about him that he is so haunting. 742 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's intense, intense. I mean I've been in the 743 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 2: same room as a lot of times for you know. 744 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 3: For these years. 745 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 2: That's like it's awkward, especially when it was in Moscow, 746 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 2: Idahope before it recently got moved to Boise, so the 747 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 2: families would come in for the big hearings and he 748 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 2: sits so close to them, I mean, because it's just awkward. 749 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: You know. 750 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 2: It's like the one one victim Kaylee, her sister came 751 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,280 Speaker 2: to one of the hearings and had had a baby, 752 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 2: and so she brought her baby to the hearing and 753 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 2: the baby was like I don't know, I always think 754 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 2: back to this, it's like one of those moments I 755 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,720 Speaker 2: won't forget. The baby was like kind of cooing during 756 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,720 Speaker 2: the hearing, but like Brian Coberger was so close to them, 757 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 2: like you know, just right over it, right, you know, 758 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 2: maybe ten feet away, and it was just so weird, 759 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 2: like here's the guy accused of killing your sister and 760 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 2: you're sitting right here with your new baby, all in 761 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 2: the same little room together. Just like you know, at 762 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 2: certain moments, you're just like this is really intense. 763 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is it's become some sort of generational yeah, 764 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,919 Speaker 1: weird cosmic and I don't think cosmic in a carmel way, 765 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: I mean cosmic and how did we end up here? 766 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and families want to and I get it. I 767 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 2: mean I luckily I haven't had anyone in my family 768 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 2: get killed or anything. But you know, there's a real 769 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 2: desire to go to these court hearings and to be 770 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 2: there and show face. 771 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense also, I think it. I mean 772 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: the advice that families get is that being seen goes 773 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 1: a long way and helps the judge and the jury 774 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: to understand the more. That's part of the whole judicial 775 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 1: system that's so awful kind of the spectacle. 776 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:29,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's true. 777 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 2: I mean if you if you're the judge and you 778 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,760 Speaker 2: see the family member sitting right there crying, you probably 779 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 2: are going to think to yourself, look what this person 780 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 2: may have done to this thing. You know, of course 781 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 2: you make your decisions. 782 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 1: They're a human being, you know, a judge is not 783 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: a computer. It's it's wild, Brian. I know that we're 784 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 1: all going to be watching you coank trial, and I'm 785 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,280 Speaker 1: just so grateful that you joined us today. Of course, 786 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 1: thank you for helping us to kind of get a 787 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: sense and understand the worries that we can look out 788 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: for and also just revealing more behind the scenes of 789 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: your life and what it's been like. 790 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. 791 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to this bonus episode of American Homicide. 792 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,479 Speaker 1: You can contact the American Homicide team by emailing us 793 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,840 Speaker 1: at American Homicide Pod at gmail dot com. That's American 794 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: Homicide Pod at gmail dot com. New episodes of American 795 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 1: Homicide will be dropping every Thursday, and if you enjoy 796 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: American Homicide, please follow the show on Apple Podcasts, the iheartapp, 797 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: or Spotify. Another way to engage with us is to 798 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: rate and review the show. Your five star review goes 799 00:37:40,280 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 1: a long way towards helping others find American Homicide.