WEBVTT - Supreme Court Tosses Out ’Bridgegate’ Convictions 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:05.640 You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:08.879 It was a unanimous decision at the Supreme Court in 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:12.280 a case steeped in politics. The court overturned the fraud 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:15.560 convictions of two defendants in the Bridgegate scandal that shook 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:19.480 former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie's administration, joining me as 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:23.919 Brad MOS's apartment Mark zad So brad Atlanta Kagan wrote 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.440 the majority opinion, and she said the evidence showed deception, 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:31.000 corruption and abuse of power. So why did the court 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:35.080 overturn the convictions? So what's happened here is the existing 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:38.400 federal statute that the Justice Fartment has been trying to 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:43.280 rely upon, such as wire fraud and federal bribery, never 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:47.239 really envisioned being applied in a situation where there was 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:49.960 no money at issue. So we're like, what happened here 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:51.800 similar to what we had a couple of years ago 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:55.360 with McDonald case that came out of Virginia. Was the 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:59.200 particular corrupt actions which everyone, even though all the justices 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:03.600 agreed were rup they were brazenly political. Complete retaliation didn't 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:05.840 fall within the scope of this type of federal statute. 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:09.800 They wire fraud statute required more than justice fraudulent use 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:11.880 of authority, but that it would be done for the 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:15.080 purpose of obtaining money or property. And the reason that 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:19.280 the justices overruled the convictions here was because despite what 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:22.800 actually happened, despite the admission that this was retaliation, it 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:26.360 was fraud. They didn't do it in order to obtain 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:29.360 money themselves. They were just engaging in political retaliation. And 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:32.679 these federal statutes don't contemplate serving as sort of a 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.559 roving federal anti corruption statute. That's not what they do. 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:40.040 So is it because the government had a sort of 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:45.240 tortured view of what government property consisted of. But that 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:47.000 was part of it. And so what the government tried 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:50.200 to claim was that because in order to cover up 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:54.000 their actions, the steps taken by the two criminal defendants 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:57.600 had been to utilize government resources to create a phony, 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:00.240 you know, story about a travel study, to pay off 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:03.480 a toll worker, to close lanes. Because they had used 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:06.800 funds in that way, with implicating a federally funded program, 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:09.760 the Port Authority, that was sufficient to meet the statute. 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:13.239 But what the justices concluded was because these two individuals 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:17.080 weren't doing it to get money for themselves that took 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:20.040 it outside the scope of the wire fraud statute. So, 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:23.000 as you mentioned, this is not the first time the 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:26.720 Supreme Court has reversed a case when there's a prosecution 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:32.519 for public corruption. Is there something about these prosecutions that 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:37.440 the court finds wanting. It's not so much wanting from 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:41.200 the facts so much as that the existing legal uh 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:43.800 provisions that are being relied upon by d o j. 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.520 The Supreme Court has included doesn't reach this far. So 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:52.040 there isn't, by you know, in law, any kind of broad, 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:57.000 overarching anti corruption statute that applies to the official acts 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.800 of state officials. There's state laws that apply to that, 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:02.640 and there may have been an argument that there should 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:05.359 have been a state criminal business opposed to a federal one, 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:09.520 but the federal government hasn't ever imposed such a law 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:12.239 on state officials. And there'd be obvious questions, you know, 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:14.519 in terms of Article ten of the Constitution, whether or 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:17.480 not that would violate the separation of powers between the 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.000 federal government and the state if the federal government could 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:23.880 impose a broad anti corruption statute against state officials. So 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:26.120 that's the thing why they haven't done that in the past. 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:28.359 And probably why they won't even do that going forward. 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:31.400 But it does speak to whether or not the existing 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:33.600 statutes have been tried to be use, such as the 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:35.680 you know, the bribery statutes, whether or not they'd be 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:39.440 clarified or updated going forward, given how these state officials 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:43.600 have been sort of exploiting these loopholes. Let's go back 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:47.240 for a second to the McDonald case. Sort of a 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:51.480 shocking decision to most people. Yeah, and in that one, 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:53.600 so that was the in that case, with the federal 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.760 bribery statute that was to play, and there was things 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:00.560 a value of personal money received, so that element that 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:04.160 long of the issue was resolved and the government could 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:06.400 prove its case. But what they struggled with there and 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:10.880 why the justices overturned the conviction in that case, was 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:14.640 there was no actual official act by Governor McDonald that 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:19.640 the simple actions of taking a meeting or recommending someone 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:25.039 talk with the private company wasn't sufficient to implicate the 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:28.040 official act by a state official. And again we're getting 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:31.560 into the nitty gritty weeds of what doesn't does does 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:35.360 not qualify as official state action, what doesn't doesn't qualify 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:41.159 as a fraudulent effort to obtain personal moneys or property. 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:45.479 But this is where the vagaries of the law have 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:49.200 come down to and where we're still fleshing out, you know, 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:51.400 at this point, and even with the Supreme Court cases 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:53.800 these two in the last five years of exactly how 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:57.200 far state officials can, you know, push the boundaries and 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:01.719 exercise their power. So finally, will this have a chilling 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:06.120 effect on federal prosecutors. I think there'll be a little 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:09.800 bit more gun shy in terms of how they approached 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.240 some of these cases. I think there was certainly an 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:15.000 effort to crack down some of the corruption that they 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:18.280 thought was not being properly addressed. I think they were 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:23.040 legitimate and good, good faith purposes behind both prosecutions. I mean, 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:25.840 certainly what Governor McDonald did here in Virginia a few 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:28.400 years back, and then what these two individuals did in 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:33.440 New Jersey back was discussing it was unethical, um and 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:37.840 it was brazenly politically corrupt. But it raises a question 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.640 about how much the federal government is allowed to venture 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:44.600 into this from a criminal standpoint, given our state government 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.719 officials and not the federal government officials. Okay, thanks brad, 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:51.320 that's Bradley mass apartment. Mark Zade coming up next on 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:55.320 Bloomberg Law, a controversial Trump nominee to the second highest 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:58.799 court in the land, gets a confirmation hearing with social 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:03.400 distancing MH. The Senate Judiciary Committee became one of the 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:07.640 first Congressional panels to embrace new procedures to work during 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:12.240 the coronavirus pandemic. The committee heard testimony from President Trump's 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:15.480 controversial pick for the d C Circuit Court of Appeals, 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:20.279 Judge Justin Walker, joining me as Madison Alder Bloomberg Law reporter. 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:25.080 So was it a teleconference, Maddie, a video conference? How 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:27.200 did it work? It was a little bit of both. 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.040 So the Senate Judiciary Committee was one of the first 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:34.600 committees on the Hill to to try, uh, to adapt 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.120 to the coronavirus pandemic. And the way they chose to 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:39.599 do that was to use the larger hearing room than 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:42.440 they typically do. So they had lawmakers who were there 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:46.120 in person, spread out among two levels of desks. They 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:49.200 had at least six feet of separation between them. And 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:51.920 then they had a few lawmakers who were present via 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:55.200 video conference. Uh, So they showed up on a video screen, 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:57.880 and then the nominee himself was there and would addressed 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.919 their questions on that on that video. It's great and 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:04.360 so um they're just in the pandemic just like everyone else. 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:09.240 Were there any uh hiccups, any problems. It was a 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:13.240 little difficult to hear a few of the speakers. Um, 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:15.920 when Senator Patrick lay he came on, his voice was 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:18.080 very booming. He sounded a bit like the Wizard of 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:23.080 oz Um. And then later on Senator Marsha Blackburn, she 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:25.560 came on and we couldn't hear her audio for a second. 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:29.560 But despite those those couple of hiccups, it went pretty smoothly. 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:31.960 I think, you know, it kind of fits with the 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:34.400 theme we've seen with a lot of these government institutions 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:38.520 that are switching over to some kind of adapted version 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:42.120 of their proceedings, like the Supreme Court, where despite a 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:44.400 few minor hiccups, that seems to be working pretty well. 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:49.080 The Democrats had an objection to even holding this hearing 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:55.000 because they're holding this hearing before Judge Griffith, whom Walker 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:58.400 is supposed to replace, is even scheduled to step aside, 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:01.920 that's in September. I have this hearing that that's correct. 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.640 So Democrats for a prose to the idea of this hearing. 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:09.400 Last week they sent a letter to Senator Graham one 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:12.320 word of this hearing came out. They said that they 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:16.720 should be focusing on issues within the Senatejuciary Committee jurisdiction 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:20.280 that are related to the coronavirus pandemic, rather than a 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:24.320 nominee who won't be filling this seat until September when 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:28.280 Judge brought this step down. But the Senate Judiciary Committee 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:30.400 McConnell has said that this is going to be a 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.120 priority for the Senate, and the Senate Judiciary Committee is 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:37.040 moving along without work. Republicans are saying that that judges 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:39.120 are a part of the essential work of the Senate. 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:43.200 Um Senator John Cornyn yesterday I reiterated that and said, 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:45.000 you know, this is one of the things that the 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:47.640 Senate should be doing during this time. So that was 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:52.760 definitely a consistent conversation throughout the hearing. In addition to 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:55.680 questioning the nominee himself, we kind of had this side 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.560 debate of whether or not they should be focusing on 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:01.240 this versus, you know, other things that the committee could 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:05.800 be doing now. Walker is a protege of Majority Leader 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:09.480 Mitch McConnell, who has been leading the Bush to fill 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.320 the judiciary with conservatives. Tell us a little more about him. So, 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:17.120 Justine Walker. He is currently a judge on the Western 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.199 District of Kentucky thirty seven, which is fairly young for 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:24.560 an Afield Court nominee. He is a protege of Mitch McConnell. 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:28.959 Mitch McConnell has really championed his nomination for the DC Circuit. 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.679 Walker was first nominated to his trial court seat by 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:37.000 Trump UH and confirmed just six months ago, so this 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:40.440 is a pretty quick elevation to the DC Circuit. There 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:43.080 was a bit of controversy over his last nomination because 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:47.880 the American Bar Association, which does ratings for judicial nominees, 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:51.360 rating him not qualified, which is he was one of 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:54.640 the handful of nominees that Trump has had who has 0:09:54.679 --> 0:10:00.000 been rated not qualified, and that was that largely characterized demo. 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.200 Perhaps concerns in the last hearing, a lot of their 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:08.760 comments were about his qualifications in his background. This time around, however, 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:11.280 the night before his hearing, the A B A gave 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:14.600 him a well qualified rating, which is their highest rating. 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.480 So why did the A B A change it's rating 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:21.400 on him? He's only been a judge for six months. 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:25.360 The ADA says they changed their rating because they were 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:29.680 looking through different lens for this for this position. Um. Yeah, 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:32.520 I talked to a few people who follow this process 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.959 and they said that the DC circuit had has different 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:39.200 types of cases than a trial court would, and also 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:42.680 circuit courts have different types of cases and trial court would. 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:45.880 So that could be part of why they changed their 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:48.320 their decision here is that you know, as a trial 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.960 court judge there are different um types of skills and 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:55.880 responsibilities that you need to um have and and attend 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:58.439 to then you do as an appeals court judge. So 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:01.640 those are the factors that could be contributing to why 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:05.160 they ultimately changed the rating. Did anyone talk about the 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:08.440 fact that he just became a district court judge not 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:11.240 six months ago. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't lost on 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:14.160 members of the committee. McConnell even made reference to that 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.640 when he gave remarks on the Senate floor yesterday during 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:21.600 the hearing um. It is somewhat of a quick elevation, 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:24.040 but this has happened in you know, in the past 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:28.000 and in other administrations where someone is appointed to a 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:31.480 lower court and is elevated to UM an appeal court. 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:38.040 Is Walker leap frogging over other candidates who were in line. Yeah, 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:40.240 so that is something else that was brought up at 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:46.360 the hearing yesterday. Walker was nominated amid the pandemic um. 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:50.040 Trump had two nominees for the appeals court seats that 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.240 he has left to still as a seat on the 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:55.120 fifth Circuit and as this seat on on the DC Circuit. 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:57.720 The fifth Circuit seat is actually vacant right now, and 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:00.240 it has been for quite some time. It's considered a 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:04.320 judicial emergency, which is a term given to seats that 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:07.440 kind of put a lot more pressure on the remaining 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.920 judges they have a higher workload. Uh, So that seat 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:13.640 is still vacant. Um. The nominee for that seat, Corey Wilson, 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:17.560 was nominated before Walker, so he's leap frogging another appeals 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.280 court nominee, and then of course he is leapfrogging other 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:23.680 district court picks who are in the pipeline. There's about 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:27.400 um forties four nominees currently in the pipeline. Uh. Some 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:29.960 of those have yet to have a hearing, So there 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:32.320 are a number of those nominees that that could also 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:36.320 have a hearing soon. So is there any explanation from 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:40.480 the committee chair or from McConnell as to why they're 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:44.040 not dealing with the vacant seat first? What is the 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:48.920 urgency of this? There hasn't been very much, uh in 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:53.880 terms of addressing why Walker's nomination was put first. But 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:57.760 if we look at the numbers and the past history 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:03.199 of the Judiciary Committee, UM and Trump and and Senator McConnell, 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:08.200 is that we see that they do prioritize Appeals Court 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:13.240 nominees over other nominees. Um. There's been some you know, 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:15.520 data that shows that those nominies move quicker through the 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:19.480 process than than other nominees. So, um, you know, it 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:22.199 could that is the contributing factor that the d C 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:25.200 Circuit is is known as the second highest court in 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:28.400 the land. It's a very important court. And you know, 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.880 I'm sure McConnell will like to get his his pick 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:36.280 into that seat as quickly as possible. Now, Democrats are 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:42.320 concerned about Walker's writings and remarks on Obamacare. Tell us 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:47.080 about their concerns. So Walker has made a few comments 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.320 over the past few years about the A c. A. 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:53.760 The first one was in an article defending Kavanaugh's nomination 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:56.840 to the Supreme Court. He was a former Kavanaugh clerk. 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:59.520 When Kavanat was on the DC Circuit. He also clerked 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:04.320 for this Anthony Kennedy. UH. And in that article he 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:08.559 basically said that the Supreme Court decision in n f 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:12.400 I B Versus Civilius, which is the decision that upheld 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.800 the individual mandate of the A C. A. He said 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:18.640 that that was indefensible and that was something that Democrats 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:21.960 took issue with. UM kind of in the context of 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:24.480 the pandemic. A few of them asked why they should 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:29.120 advance a judge who was seemingly opposed to this law, UH, 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:32.760 during the time of a pandemic. Another comment he made 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:35.680 was that his investor in march um it was a 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:40.000 bit of a joke. At the end of a description 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.960 of his relationship with his former boss, Anthony Kennedy, he 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:48.160 he made a remark that UH kind of poked fund 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.120 at the A C A UH and that particular decision again, 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:53.480 and Democrats also took took a shoet with that. But 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:57.200 you know, he said that in the article that he wrote, UM, 0:14:57.240 --> 0:14:59.440 he was really trying to do a legal analysis. And 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:01.520 then he also said that you know, it really was 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.240 a joke, and he does, you know, respect Kennedy and 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:08.880 the Court. And I believe that not only Mitch McConnell 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:15.800 but Justice Kavanaugh were at his investiture ceremonies. That's correct. Um, 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:18.040 this was actually in March, so was at the beginning 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:22.840 of this pandemic. Um, McConnell and and Kavanaugh were there. 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:27.560 They were present when you know, he was formally added 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:31.240 to the Western District of Kentucky, which, um, you know, 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:35.400 brace some eyerows among Democrats. But both of those were 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:39.040 mentors of his. Um. So it's it's not a typical 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:42.280 to have mentors there, but um, it definitely raised some eyes, 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:46.640 eyebrows in the opposition. What also raised some eyebrows was 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:50.440 his recent ruling allowing Easter services to go forward in 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:55.320 Kentucky despite the virus. And it was controversial not only 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:58.680 because it seemed to solve an issue that really wasn't there, 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:03.320 but also because of its overt religious tones. Did he 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.800 talk about that, That's correct. That was another thing that 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:08.920 was brought up a lot. It was interesting at the hearing. 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:11.760 It was brought up by law makers on both sides 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:16.520 of the aisle. Republicans pointed to that ruling as evidence 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:20.080 of his understanding of the law and his you know 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:23.600 how he would uphold the constitution. Um. But Democrats pointed 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:27.720 to it as evidence of potential partisanship. UM. You know, 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:31.360 said that it was it was far too off topic. UM. 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:36.800 Another thing that came up about that particular ruling was that, um, 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:41.720 it was made without contacting the the mayor who had 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:47.120 put those restrictions in place himself. So UM. Some some 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:49.720 Democrats who were questioning did bring that up as as 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:54.520 a point um of of disagreements and Maddie, did anyone 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:58.800 bring up. Recently, the chief Judge of the d C Circuit, 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:03.600 Sri Sriniva Sin, asked the Chief Justice of the United States, 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:10.800 John Roberts to get another circuit to investigate allegations or 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:15.080 a request by Demand Justice to look into whether Mitch 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:21.040 McConnell influenced Judge Griffith to retire. So that's definitely in 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.320 the background of all of this. That's that's kind of 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.040 the contact for all of this. There have been um 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:29.879 reports that Mitch McConnell is asking judges to retire in 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:33.440 that this and UM. More liberal groups like Demand Justice 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.920 are taking issue with saying that it's unethical for them 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:39.639 to do so. Um, you know, that was something that 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:44.680 definitely was uh part of the context for for yesterday's hearing. 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:48.720 Has that moved anywhere that request to the chief Um, 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.080 not that I know of yet. The last news that 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.639 I heard was that it was just going through the 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.359 process and that they had opted for that that review. 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:02.080 So does it seem as if nothing is really going 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:06.200 to stop Judge Walker's confirmation. Mitch McConnell has the votes 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:10.000 as usual. You know, Walker went through last time despite 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:14.240 his not qualified rating. Walker was confirmed and this time 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:18.439 he has the well qualified rating. And the Senate is 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:22.119 still led by Republicans, they still have a majority, So 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:25.160 it does appear that his his nomination will will still 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:27.679 be going through. But um, that doesn't mean it's not 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:30.760 going through without a fight. As President Trump nominated other 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:36.160 judges recently for positions. Yes yesterday there was another nomination 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:38.960 from the White House for the Eastern District of Virginia. 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.080 And that adds to you know, the over forty nominees 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:44.720 that I mentioned that are in the pipeline. Um, that's 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:49.680 for about seventy nine vacancies right now, current future vacancies 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:52.639 so you know about half those vacancies have someone in 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:54.920 the pipeline. They're just waiting for the Senate and the 0:18:55.000 --> 0:19:00.480 Judiciary committee. Doc. Okay, thanks Maddie. That's Madison Alder Bloomberg reporter. 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:05.919 College students kicked off campus by the coronavirus have a 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:11.600 new extracurricular activity, lawsuits. Undergraduates have sued more than fifty 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:15.840 schools demanding refunds for partial tuition, room and board, and 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:19.440 fees after the schools shut down. Joining me is Joe 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:22.760 brannan professor at Vermont Law School who's tracking the litigation. 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:26.919 What types of lawsuits are the students filing. It seems 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:32.240 that they're filing contract based lawsuits, speaking damages for both 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:38.560 contact damages and something called restitution or on just enrichment. 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:42.800 If it's a contract to action, do students sign anything 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:47.359 or do colleges have posting somewhere on a website that 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:52.800 says what tuition covers. It's kind of very based on 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:58.440 the institution um. Generally, schools, dur institutions will have something 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:02.600 in offer letter that they send out the students saying 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:07.120 that they're expecting accepting them into the program and oftentimes 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:11.040 saying that they're bound by the terms of any academic 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:16.439 or student regulation. To the extent that something on the website, 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:19.960 it wand into some difficulty whether that that would actually 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:24.320 be come part of the terms of the contract. Something 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:30.399 like advertising generally isn't the basis of the offer or 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:35.280 included in the offer. So um, that's reputtable that could 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:38.200 become part of the offer. Who was very specific and 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:41.840 and related to the terms of the agreement, But most 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:44.880 of the time it would just be something in an 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:50.080 offer letter, which generally doesn't lay out specifically what tuition 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:54.680 dollars are allocated to. And what would one just enrichment 0:20:54.840 --> 0:21:01.520 claim depend on. I'm just enrichment requires three different things. 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:07.000 It requires a law on the part of the plaintiffs, 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:11.480 It requires a benefit on the part of the defendant, 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:17.960 and it requires some connection or causation between the two 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:21.040 of them. So that's a big difference between on justin 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:25.040 Richmond claim and a contract claim. And a contract claim 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:28.639 you're showing that you were hurt and you're entitled to 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:33.600 money or compensation. In and on justin Richmond claim, you 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:37.160 have to claim to show that not only were you damaged, 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:41.880 but also the other party was at the same time benefited. 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:46.000 And so that's um the recovery that we get the 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:50.200 amount that they were on justly benefited. So these colleges 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:55.080 still have to pay their professors, they have some amount 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:58.879 that they have to spend in transitioning to online courses. 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:02.160 So they are they necessarily going to come out ahead here. 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:07.240 Not necessarily. Um, there are some areas where you might 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:11.360 be more likely to get recovery than others. For instance, 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:15.679 many schools are refunding um real plants or women boards 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:18.120 because they're not now having to go out and buy 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:21.000 the food to serve to the students, so they are 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:25.480 saving a benett from from that. But schools are still 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:30.200 teaching the courses, they're still playing their faculty to teach 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:32.840 the courses that students are still getting credit for it, 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:36.000 and there may be additional costs that have been incurred 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:41.680 to support the online transition. So absolutely correct, there's not 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:45.439 necessarily going to be a benefit to the law school 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:51.480 or college or university, even if there was a detriment 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:56.080 that was suffered by the planet. So how are colleges 0:22:56.200 --> 0:23:00.280 responding to these lawsuits? Are some of them say we're 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:02.800 going to fight this to the bitter end or others 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:05.480 saying well, we'll give you back this or that. I 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:09.480 think it's early, and I think it's varied. Many schools 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:14.040 have taken some steps to a funds. These that are 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:19.679 directly related to specific costs, such as women board is 0:23:19.880 --> 0:23:23.840 a good example of that, or parking sees or some 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:28.800 see that's directly related to a service that isn't being provided. 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:33.320 It's still early and schools will have varied responses to this. 0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:37.879 I'm not aware as any of that have issued refunds 0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:42.200 of tuition to this point. Again, this is all happening 0:23:42.320 --> 0:23:47.760 UM insence blocks right now. If this went to trial, 0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:52.800 Let's say the students are still getting the credits towards 0:23:52.800 --> 0:23:55.960 their diploma, so they're getting that much. How would a 0:23:56.040 --> 0:24:01.239 court determine what the value of an online education is 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:07.000 versus the value of an education on campus? Right, because 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:10.120 that would be what the damages would be if it's 0:24:10.200 --> 0:24:14.560 an on just Enrichmond claim or even a contract claim UM. 0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:17.880 And so there's little precedent for this because what we're 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:21.439 doing right now with the shift online education, wouldn't have 0:24:21.480 --> 0:24:25.520 been possible even UM a couple of years ago. Some 0:24:25.680 --> 0:24:29.520 case law is instructive in UM the case of Hurricane 0:24:29.600 --> 0:24:33.280 Katrina there worked on. Schools in New Orleans were not 0:24:33.440 --> 0:24:36.520 able to proceed with the campus, but other schools stepped 0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:41.159 in and let them finish out the semester at a 0:24:41.200 --> 0:24:44.159 different institution in a different area. And there was at 0:24:44.240 --> 0:24:46.960 least one class action related to that, and of course 0:24:47.480 --> 0:24:52.720 did dismissed the um greek of contract and on Justin 0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:57.080 Richmond claims because the students still did get the credit 0:24:57.600 --> 0:25:01.119 and graduate from the ITC and that they were enrolled 0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:03.159 in just for that's the dust, or they got it 0:25:03.240 --> 0:25:07.919