WEBVTT - Lisa Ling on finding forgiveness within her family 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:06.080 What do you do when life doesn't go according to 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:09.680 plan that moment you lose a job, or a loved one, 0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:14.040 or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:18.720 is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:21.520 by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:23.800 with a guest to talk about the times they were 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.880 knocked off course and what they did to move forward. 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:33.040 Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:38.239 are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:42.680 every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:51.840 answers one question. Now, what the idea that I would 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:54.720 ever take Asian food to school in my lunch? Oh 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:58.440 my god, that was like unfathomable. Today, my kids like 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:02.480 they take noodles and seaweed packets, and so I saw 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:04.200 us back. I think it's just so funny. They'd take 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:05.920 him chee if I would let them. But it's just 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:08.399 it has a very strong smell that would that might 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.320 be a problem. It's that's my view where I would 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:15.319 draw the line exactly. It's delicious, but you know it's 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:18.679 just it's a very strong I feel if you said this, 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:22.399 and it just made me, it partially made me so sad. 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:25.400 A few of the people in the particular show that 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:30.040 I saw saying not wanting to smell like Chinese food, 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:33.400 Whereas to me, growing up, I knew it was like 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.080 a happy time for my mom and I, you know, 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:39.319 we were that meant we were going to be together 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:41.600 and we were going to eat great food and it 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:45.360 was so important. Like it's so funny how sense memory 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:48.720 affects us differently. I love hearing you say that, Brooke, 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:52.120 because it just goes to show, like what a part 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:57.040 of American culture Chinese food has become. My guest today 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:01.680 is award winning journalist and author Lee sa Ling. Lisa 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:04.520 has been a leader in news for decades, covering stories 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:08.840 for CNN, ABC, National Geographic. The list goes on. Her 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:12.359 big break came when she was just twenty one and 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:16.639 was sent to Afghanistan to cover its civil war. That 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:20.680 experienced shaped her immensely, and she since dedicated her career 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:26.120 to amplifying marginalized voices. I've watched an admiration as she's 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:29.520 gone on to develop an incredible body of work, including 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.240 This Is Life with Lisa Ling, which ran for nine 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:37.520 seasons on CNN and take Out, a fascinating docuseries currently 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:42.120 streaming on HBO Max. She's a true badass, and she's 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.200 an incredible storyteller, and I'm so thrilled to share a 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:48.560 conversation with all of you. So here is Lisa Ling. 0:02:54.639 --> 0:03:00.320 Lisa Ling, so happy to see her smiling face, to 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:03.799 see you Brook. Now. I know more of you than 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:07.480 I do know you personally, but in some weird way, 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:10.680 I feel like we really do know each other. And 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.160 that's one of the beauties of what you put out there. 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.000 People think that they really know you. But I always 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:20.400 love to ask guests because in my life I'm always 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:24.640 slightly disappointed in how I'm introduced because it seems like 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:28.240 it's produced to the lowest common denominator or something that 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.440 I'm not really proud of or something. So how would 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:33.919 you like to be introduced? Or who is Leaslay? What 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:36.920 answer that question? We? Well, first of all, thank you 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:38.880 for having me, and I feel the same about you. 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:42.720 While we haven't spent much time together, you were part 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:45.840 of my upbringing. I feel like we in some ways 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:51.320 grew up together. I like to be introduced as a 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:59.880 mother and a storyteller, journalist, a lover of eighties music 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.160 and an eighties pop culture, which is why you were 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:08.040 such a fixture of it for me and someone who 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:14.280 is always trying to connect our fellow humans with one another. 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:19.720 See that is beautiful and it is what you've done. 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:22.599 And I love that you put mother first, which is 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.920 so so interesting. Can we go back a little bit 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.800 just to sort of talk about how you came to 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.760 be and where you came from because your parents immigrated 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:36.760 right to the US before you were born. Correct, yes, yes, 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:40.119 they came at very different times. My father was ten 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:45.480 when his family immigrated to the United States. His parents 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:50.000 were highly educated people. My grandfather had an MBA from 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:52.480 University of Colorado because he had studied in the United 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:56.599 States a couple of decades before they actually immigrated, and 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:01.040 my grandmother had a music degree from from cambrid in England. 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:05.520 But because they were Chinese, he couldn't get a job 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.000 in finance and she couldn't get a job in the 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.560 professional world, so they ended up doing odd jobs and 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:15.599 eventually scraped together enough money to open a Chinese restaurant 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:20.680 in Carmichael, California, which is a suburb of Sacramento. When 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:24.719 neither of my grandparents even knew how to cook, but 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:27.719 they realized that it was one of the only pathways 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:30.240 to being able to kind of eke out some semblance 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:35.120 of the American dream. And so I grew up in Carmichael, California, 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:39.159 And at the time when my family settled there, there 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:43.120 were no Asians. It was not a diverse community at all. 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:47.239 But my family could settle there because they spoke perfect English. 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:50.640 And was that difficult, Like, was it because it's all 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:56.200 you've known, But behaviorally from other people, I've heard you 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:59.000 talk a little bit about it, it was. I was 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:03.440 never physically harassed, and I was never I never felt 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:07.920 discrimination from any of the adults. But the kids teased me. 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:12.400 I mean there were kids who literally teased me every 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:15.479 single day throughout middle school and high school. God, you know, 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:18.359 I had more nicknames than any any other kid that 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:22.280 I know. And it wasn't malicious. But when you're a 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:26.880 kid who is different from everyone else and your differences 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:31.880 are highlighted regularly, you know at that age when all 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:34.640 you want to do is fit in, All you want 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:38.919 to do is just be like everyone else accepted. Yeah, 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:41.719 those things are hard. Do you think it gave you 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:47.280 a certain resilience to just forge ahead. For sure, I 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:51.479 definitely think that it really drove me to one leave 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:55.760 that area to seek out a place that was more diverse, 0:06:55.839 --> 0:07:00.240 but also to kind of proved to everyone else that 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:02.839 I was going to be not only okay, but that 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.880 I was going to survive through it and thrive. I 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:08.760 imagine it also gave you a certain amount of empathy 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:13.160 to provide a place for people to be heard. I 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:16.080 do think Brooke that that's one of the reasons why 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:20.080 over so many years, people have come to trust me, 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:23.720 Because I do think that so many of the stories 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:26.360 that I've worked on, you know, deal with people whose 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:30.400 voices are rarely heard, who don't get an opportunity to 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:33.560 speak out much and tell their own stories. And I 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:37.559 do believe that my background and kind of going through 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:42.760 similar kinds of things has allowed me to better understand people. 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:46.920 I'm as guilty as anyone for having preconceived ideas about 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:49.040 what someone's going to be like, what a community is 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:52.080 going to be like, but I do really try hard 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.720 in every experience that I have, in any every interview 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.960 that I conduct, I think to myself, you know, put 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:04.560 whatever a pans or judgments you have aside and really 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.559 just have a human to human conversation with this person, 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:12.480 irrespective of what you know he or she or they 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:16.880 may have done or may be accused of. For this 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.200 hour that we are sitting across from each other, just 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:24.000 have a conversation and allow this person to share their 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:28.239 hearts and their truth and their truth. I also think 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:32.440 that in the same way that you say you're as 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:36.199 guilty as everybody, I think so many people in this 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:42.600 country are extremely guilty of lumping the entire Asian community 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:48.200 in one place. For sure. And you yourself had your 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:53.160 mother was Taiwanese, correct, My mom's Taiwanese and your father 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:57.439 is Chinese. And did they share any of their cultural 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:00.560 history as you were growing up? Did they teach you 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.720 everything about it? They really didn't. And I think that's 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:07.880 a very common thing among the children of a particularly 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:11.960 immigrant Asians. You know, maybe it's because I'm part of it, 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:16.720 but it's it's it's a highly repressed culture, you know, 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:19.120 which is why I think so many of us really 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:24.440 carry so many layers of generational trauma that continues to 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:28.360 go unresolved and really impact us for generations. You know, 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:31.520 so many of our families went through you know, war 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:36.880 and crisis and trauma. But you know, unless they were 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:40.560 forced to confront it, they just kind of have buried it. 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:44.320 I mean, the whole sort of immigrating from distant lands 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:47.960 to this country where they felt so unwelcomed, right where 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:50.040 they were looked at as second class citizens, where they 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:53.600 just had to had to survive. You know, it's mind 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.720 boggling to me. So that's a long way of saying 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:00.600 that my parents did not communicate a lot of those 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:04.520 things that they went through in their past. But why 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:11.480 I have become such an advocate for our community really 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:14.839 addressing so many of these mental health issues that plague us. 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:18.880 When I started at the View with Barbara Walters, she 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:21.520 took me to lunch one day and started asking me 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:25.280 questions about my mom and my mom and dad divorced 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:27.880 when I was seven and she moved to Los Angeles. 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:30.520 I was still in northern California, And when Barbara Walters 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:32.920 started asking me those questions, I broke down. I mean, 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:34.880 she's just she has a knack for just making people 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:38.199 cry in an instant, like this is all true. But 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:41.240 I became emotionally because the truth was I didn't really 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:43.920 know anything about my mom's past. I just knew that 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:46.880 I harbored some resentment for her because of the divorce 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:50.040 and because she moved, And so that compelled me to 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:55.120 get myself into therapy and to start having conversations with 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.520 my mom, where I even took her back to Taiwan 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:01.079 and man Brooke. That was such a hard trip because 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.560 she thought that she was closing the book on so 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:06.319 many of the things that she experienced as a young 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:10.479 person in Taiwan, which were really dark and ugly. But 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:14.079 that action of taking her to confront those things and 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:18.400 then talking about them and understanding her really allowed me 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:22.080 a deeper level of understanding of what she went through. 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:25.680 And eventually, although it took a lot of work, all 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:29.960 those feelings of resentment and abandonment just dissipated because I 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:33.320 better understood why she did the things that she did. 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:35.560 How did she feel at the end of it? Was 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:40.120 she thankful or was she she regret it? I think 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:43.280 she was so thankful. Again, as hard as it was, 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:46.679 I saw her in a different light, you know, like 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:49.640 I developed a kind of respect for her that I 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:51.840 can honestly say I didn't really have. Were you were 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:55.240 able to forgive her? Oh? Yeah? It was the first step. 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:57.760 I mean, this has been a process, Brook and you know, 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:01.439 plant medicines have even contributed to this, to the process 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:03.480 as well. Right, that's a whole other way story. I 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:08.400 wish I could I'm the worst, but it was a huge, 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.720 huge first step, and I think both of us realized 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:13.800 that it was a path that we had to continue 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:18.360 to walk on. How did your dad react to that? 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.200 You know, I think my dad, because my mom's the 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:25.719 one who left, has just always been bitter, you know. 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:30.360 But you know, he's a very idiosyncratic person. And as 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:32.720 much as I love him, I mean, he was my 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:37.560 first love. I couldn't be buried to my dad. He's 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:40.400 very a tough guy. And again like that that also, 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.360 my parents are such different people. They really should have 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:46.800 never been together in the first place. They kind of had, 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:51.480 you know, what amounted to like an arranged marriage. And 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.559 so I think that I've forgiven my mom for leaving 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:56.880 my dad because I know how my dad has been. 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:00.120 But what what what I did with my mom has 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.080 really been pivotal. And I channel this in my work 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:06.199 a lot, because people share with me things that they 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:09.600 may have never shared with their closest friends or family members, 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:14.000 And so often when I'm engaged in conversation with people, 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:18.320 they often go back to something that happened in their 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:23.120 own childhood, right that led them onto the path where 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:27.400 they are today. And one of the questions that very 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.560 often comes up when I talk to people who I 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:35.920 don't know may be incarcerated, or you know, we're self medicating, 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:40.960 or you know, started to pursue sex work for example. 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:44.360 You know, I often in the end ask them like, 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:49.480 what would seven year old Jason think about what you're 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:51.880 doing now? Well, what do you think that seven year 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:55.360 old Lisa would think about that trip and her life? 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:57.720 I mean, if I could talk to seven year old Lisa, 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.480 whose parents were going through that divorce that was so 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:04.520 traumatizing for me that you know, used to keep me 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:08.840 up crying in bed, you know, regularly, I would just 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:12.160 tell her it's going to be okay, that that that 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:18.320 her parents were such different people, and that in some 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.280 cases it might be better for the two of them 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:25.560 to not be together, that you could experience them as 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:30.120 independent individuals, that they didn't need to be together in 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:34.000 order for them and for you to feel like you 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:47.640 have a happy life. It doesn't appear that you relied 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:52.680 on anybody else to move yourself forward. You go to college, 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:57.080 but you leave, you leave before you graduate, which is 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:01.040 so risky to take your first job. How did you 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:02.920 find the courage to that? What was the reaction by 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.920 your parents or your peers and family? Right, my my 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.640 Asian parents, who were all about you know, education, which 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:13.680 is why they were right right, right, You know, my 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:17.480 parents were actually very understanding because I had a job 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.800 that was a kinder graduate school. I mean, I would 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:24.560 never encourage anyone to drop out of college for just 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.200 any job. But I had a job that was sending 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:31.720 me all over the world to cover stories that were, 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:37.040 you know, we're making headline news, the civil war in Afghanistan, 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:43.960 the democracy movement throughout China, throughout Iran, even drug wars 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:47.880 throughout South America, the Russian referendum elections. So and you're 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:51.480 twenty one. I was in my early twenties. I'm sorry 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.720 my nineteens, really like, what path did you have to take? 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:58.120 Because that's unheard enough to put a twenty one year 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:02.160 old in Afghanistan in both places and expect that a 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:04.560 they won't be traumatized, but be that they will have 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:10.840 the wherewithal to stay focused and get through it. Yeah, 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:14.520 I was really lucky. I auditioned for a show that 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:17.000 was seen in middle schools and high schools across the 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:19.920 country called Channel one News, and because it was as 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.960 a show that was seen in schools, they hired young 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:29.160 looking correspondence to cover and deliver the news. So Anderson Cooper, 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:32.320 before he was totally gray, was one of my colleagues 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:36.880 at Channel one, and they would with regularity send us 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:39.880 into the world. And you know, when I went to Afghanistan, 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:42.640 I went with the Red Cross, you know, which, as 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:46.960 you know, as a highly reputable NGO. And back then, 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:50.640 when you traveled with NGOs, the likelihood of something happening 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:53.080 would be far less than had you not gone in 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:56.360 with them. So I felt pretty secure. And the world 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:59.600 was a different place too, it really was. I don't 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:03.640 think that Americans had the same kinds of targets on 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.560 our backs at the time. And for me, I've just 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:10.920 I've always been a kid who just was insatiably curious, 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:12.879 who never had a chance to really see much of 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:15.320 the world because I didn't have the money to do so. 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:19.639 So that chance to travel to distant locations and communicate 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:22.760 what I was seeing was so incredible, an eye opening, 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:26.040 And I'm sure you had multiple experiences, but was there 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:30.679 anyone one thing that happened during those years in that 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:35.920 time that just stood out to you. I mean, yeah, 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:38.600 and I'll keep this short, but you mentioned Afghanistan or 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:41.080 I mentioned Afghanistan. I mean that trip when I was 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:43.560 twenty one. I was a sophomore at the University of 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:48.040 Southern California, and you know, Afghanistan was a place that 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:50.560 I couldn't even identify on a map at that time, 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:52.720 and most of the people in my world couldn't identify 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:57.480 it either, and I probably still can't well exactly exactly. 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:02.080 And when we landed and I was immediately surrounded by 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:05.280 young boys who were armed to the teeth carrying weapons 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.840 that were larger than they were, what I saw was 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:13.359 so just shocked me to the core. And coming back 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:17.159 from that experience, I tried to engage my friends and 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:20.520 my colleagues about what I'd just seen there, and no 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:23.280 one had any clue that this scene existed in the world, 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.720 despite the fact that the United States was so deeply 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:31.240 embedded in Afghanistan, and that in fact, those very weapons 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:33.200 that some of those boys may have been carrying could 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:36.560 have been paid for by our country, by the United States. 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:41.680 For me that at that moment, I realized, like I 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:43.639 need to be Like, this is what I'm supposed to 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:46.760 be doing, is being out there, you know, whether it 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.320 was around the world or somewhere in my own backyard, 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:52.800 but communicating what I was seeing to a larger audience. 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:58.640 And you weren't even further. You wrote a book, correct 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:01.280 with your sister. Can you take me through a little 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:04.200 bit of that, because I was horrified when I heard 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:08.359 what had happened to her. Yeah. So in two thousand 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.800 and nine, my sister was working for an organization, a 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:16.960 news organization that al Gore was affiliated with, and they 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:20.879 were working on a story about the refugee crisis and 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:25.080 people who would risk their lives to escape from North 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:28.159 Korea finally to make it into China where they were 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:34.440 often exploited and forced into sex, slavery and other horrific conditions. 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:38.520 And as they're reporting on the border, they hired a fixer, 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:41.080 and we all hire fixers when we travel overseas, people 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:43.920 who have worked with press before to help them sort 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:47.320 of navigate the area. And when they were there, the 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:51.520 fixer led them over the border, and I don't even 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:54.399 think my sister and her colleagues really even realized that 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:58.560 they were over the border. And suddenly they heard shouting 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:02.760 and people running toward them, and they ran back into China, 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:07.200 and North Korean soldiers crossed over the border and violently 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:10.960 dragged my sister in her colleague back into North Korea, 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:15.760 where where they would stay for five months and be 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:19.200 held in captivity and eventually sentenced by the North Korean 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:23.679 government to twelve years hard labor. And it required former 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:28.159 President Clinton to go over and negotiate the release of 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:29.840 my sister in her colleague. And even when I talk 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:32.000 about it, it's like, oh, my god, I cannot believe 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:35.320 that actually happened. Did you have any communication with her 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:39.360 during that horrific time. Well, she was able to make 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:43.600 five calls during her five month captivity. Five months may 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:46.800 not sound like a lot, but when your sister is 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:52.280 inside the most reclusive, isolated country on Earth, you know, 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:56.520 one of our number one adversaries, it's terrifying. One day, 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:59.320 you know, even yeah, I mean even you know, if 0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:02.560 you're locked up in the most hardcore prison in the 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:05.440 United States, you can at least communicate or have visiting hours. 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:07.760 But you know, I didn't know that she had been 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:11.160 beaten with a rifle butt until after she had been 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:13.680 released from captivity. There was so much that we just 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:17.560 didn't know about her time there until she was released. 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:21.320 But I think all of my years of reporting and 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:27.840 developing connections with people really culminated in this moment. Anyone 0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:30.520 in this situation would have done anything that they could 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:35.560 to have their their sibling released, And it was just 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:40.679 a crazy time surreal. Did your focus an approach to 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:46.160 reporting change in any way? You know? I it certainly has. 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:51.359 For my sister. She is far less inclined to want 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:55.760 to do international work, especially you know, to conflict zones. 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:00.200 For me, because I have young kids as well, let's 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:04.359 just say I will still go, but I definitely take 0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:10.439 security far more seriously. But I also brook feel like 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:14.440 because that story that she was reporting on was prevented 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:18.119 from being told, it's actually even made me more defiant 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:23.840 about wanting to tell those untold stories, about the conveying 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:28.240 the importance of telling those stories and really supporting journalists 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:31.959 who take these enormous risks in order for us to 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:44.679 be able to consume, you know, incredibly important information. I 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:48.160 do feel that many women, so many women, especially women 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:51.359 of color, women over forty, you know, they've had to 0:22:51.400 --> 0:22:54.639 sort of fight to take space and be heard or 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:57.720 have a voice or bring those stories. Yeah, do you 0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:01.400 think that you've had to fight in anyway to get 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:08.760 those opportunities? Definitely, I definitely believe that. Or I feel 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:14.000 grateful that I've been able to stay in this business 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:17.399 as long as I have and have shows that have 0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:20.679 carried my name on them for as many years as 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:24.840 I have. But that doesn't mean that I haven't dealt 0:23:24.880 --> 0:23:28.960 with my share of discrimination in the workplace. And I 0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:30.560 can speak for myself. I mean, I don't want to 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:33.040 speak on behalf of all Asian women, but I know 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:36.879 I have not been the best advocate for myself because 0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:39.600 I never really saw that modeled for me. You know, 0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:44.800 Asian women, you know, demanding their worth or taking up space, 0:23:45.600 --> 0:23:48.359 and it's taking a lot of work, I think for 0:23:48.400 --> 0:23:53.200 so many of us to dislodge those feelings and feel 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:57.360 confident and comfortable taking up the space that we deserve 0:23:57.480 --> 0:24:02.240 to take up absolutely and learning how to advocate for yourself. 0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:05.640 I mean, did you when when you are feeling those things, 0:24:05.640 --> 0:24:08.600 are feeling that that being in that position. Did you 0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:11.160 talk to your bosses, did you complain to anybody? Did 0:24:11.240 --> 0:24:15.159 you have any path? Well, I've I've I've always, you know, 0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:18.560 because of this business, you have to have them. You know. 0:24:18.720 --> 0:24:21.880 I have great agents who are who are bulldogs, quite honestly, 0:24:22.080 --> 0:24:26.320 and they've even said to me, Lisa, let us negotiate 0:24:26.359 --> 0:24:28.399 your contract because we know that you would do it 0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:31.280 for free. And I just let them because it's the truth, 0:24:31.840 --> 0:24:35.520 because I'm not good at negotiating. I'm not good about, 0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:38.720 you know, recognizing my own worth. I do the work 0:24:38.760 --> 0:24:41.239 that I do because I'm deeply passionate about it, and 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:43.800 I feel so fortunate to be able to do it. 0:24:44.440 --> 0:24:48.199 But I have not, I've really suffered from kind of 0:24:48.359 --> 0:24:53.960 you know, recognizing my worth. And so after a particular 0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:58.440 incident many years ago, when I was told that at 0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:02.359 TCA the Television Criticismiation, my show was going to be 0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:04.959 extended for another year, but that this white male, this 0:25:05.000 --> 0:25:07.520 white male, and this white male, we're going to have 0:25:07.600 --> 0:25:11.439 their contracts extended for an additional year, so two years total. 0:25:12.240 --> 0:25:16.480 I was sort of flummixed because my show performed similarly, 0:25:16.520 --> 0:25:19.239 if not better than some of those white males I 0:25:19.280 --> 0:25:21.520 called my agent, and I said, will you please tell 0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:24.080 the network that if anyone at TCA asks me why 0:25:24.240 --> 0:25:26.600 I didn't why I was the only one who wasn't 0:25:26.640 --> 0:25:30.840