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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 3: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 3: And today on the podcast, we are going to be

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Speaker 3: starting a two part series of episodes exploring a kind

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Speaker 3: of salad bar of topics related to the Star Wars universe. Now, Rob,

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Speaker 3: I know you love a calendar tie in. We've got

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Speaker 3: something going on on the calendar the week that these

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Speaker 3: episodes are airing, Right.

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Speaker 2: That's right, May the fourth, the unofficial turn basically official

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Speaker 2: holiday for all things Star Wars.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that's a pun, Right the fourth be with you? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: very cute.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So I think for all of the first episode today,

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Speaker 3: we're going to be talking about a setting from the

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Speaker 3: Empire Strikes Back, my favorite of the Star Wars movies.

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Speaker 3: It's going to be the planet Hath, the Ice World,

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Speaker 3: location of the Hidden Rebel Bass where the first act

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Speaker 3: of the movie takes place. So we're gonna be talking

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Speaker 3: about wampas, We're gonna be talking about ton toons as organisms,

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Speaker 3: ton toons as sleeping bags, and maybe some other stuff. Rob,

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Speaker 3: I wonder if you have a similar kind of particular

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Speaker 3: childhood memories of the Hawth scenes to the ones that

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Speaker 3: I hold. So I really loved the Hawth segment of

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Speaker 3: Empire when I was a kid, not just because of

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Speaker 3: the ice planet aliens, I did really like those, but

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Speaker 3: I really liked the snow speed or battle scene. I

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Speaker 3: remember that always stood out to me as one of

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Speaker 3: my favorite, you know, spaceship battle scenes in the movies,

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Speaker 3: and I think it's because it wasn't just blasterbeams shooting

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Speaker 3: back and forth. I really liked the way that they

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Speaker 3: used the trick with the harpoons and the tow cables around.

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Speaker 3: They use that to trip up the walker legs and

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Speaker 3: knock them down, really like action scenes with the tactile

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Speaker 3: all change up like that, where there's like a different

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Speaker 3: kind of I don't know, substance being deployed. And I

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Speaker 3: remember liking the Ewok battle in Empire or Sorry in

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Speaker 3: Jedi for the same reason, though that one maybe didn't

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Speaker 3: age quite as gloriously for me personally, but it's still great.

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Speaker 2: Well, you love a good booby trap, and yeah both

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Speaker 2: have traps. Both of these involved setting traps for big

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Speaker 2: lumbering like machines, so uh and uh yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I obviously I love Empire Strikes Back as well. It's

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Speaker 2: one of these weird films though for me that I

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Speaker 2: saw it so early on, like like as a as

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Speaker 2: a tiny child, and like grew up with it and

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Speaker 2: grew up with the toys from this movie, grew up

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Speaker 2: with the world of this movie. It's almost like growing

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Speaker 2: up like within a religion or a certain culture that

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Speaker 2: you It was only much later that I really sat

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Speaker 2: down and thought about, well, Okay, this is why I

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Speaker 2: liked it, this is why it connected with me, and

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Speaker 2: these are the things that's that are legitimately great about it,

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Speaker 2: because yeah, it was just all around me. In fact,

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Speaker 2: I had to bring this in. I have my Tonton

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Speaker 2: action figure, our action accessory from when I was a kid,

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Speaker 2: showing that off on the video for folks who have

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Speaker 2: the video. I didn't keep most of those things, but

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Speaker 2: I did keep the Tonton. And I think that there

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Speaker 2: are only a few aliens that I connected with so

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Speaker 2: much that I had to like hold on to them

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Speaker 2: in one way or another. There's this, There's Max Reebo,

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Speaker 2: There's a few others like that. In the I had

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Speaker 2: to keep the Tonton.

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Speaker 3: You showed me earlier. Can you let the people those

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Speaker 3: who are watching on video, can you see the hinge

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Speaker 3: where the action figure goes into the back of the

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Speaker 3: ton Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right here, So there was also a saddle, there

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Speaker 2: were you know, accessories and all. But but yeah, there

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Speaker 2: was this little place where you just stick the feet

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Speaker 2: directly into the back of the tonton, which is not

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Speaker 2: how it actually worked in the show, but something like that,

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Speaker 2: of course occurs.

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Speaker 3: Why did they make horses like that that you can

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Speaker 3: ride inside?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I wonder if this was a common

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Speaker 2: toy build. I don't know. Toy historians will have to

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Speaker 2: ride in and let us know if this trick was

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Speaker 2: ever employed with just straight up like Cowboy and horse

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Speaker 2: action figure sets.

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Speaker 3: All right, well, maybe we should just jump right in

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Speaker 3: and talk a bit about the give a sketch of

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Speaker 3: the fictional world of the planet Hawth.

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Speaker 2: All right, I'm gonna ahead and mention a book. I

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Speaker 2: have a number of different like Star Wars bestiaries, and

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Speaker 2: one is full of droids, So I guess it's a

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Speaker 2: I don't know what you would call that droid technical guide.

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Speaker 2: But this one here, this is a field guide from

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Speaker 2: Star Wars. The wildlife of Star Wars a field guide.

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Speaker 2: This one was by Tyrrel Whitlach and Bob Carral. They're

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Speaker 2: both from two thousand and one. Both of these authors,

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Speaker 2: by the way, are interesting figures in the history of

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Speaker 2: Star Wars because Corral wrote co wrote the nineteen eighty

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Speaker 2: four film The Ewok Adventure, and Whitlatch, an illustrator with

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Speaker 2: a background in zoology, served as a principal creature designer

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Speaker 2: for Star Wars Episode one, The Phantom Menace, which of

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Speaker 2: course has a lot of great creatures in it. Okay, so,

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Speaker 2: uh let's provide just a little overview of Hath First,

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Speaker 2: just a reminder, and actually before I do the reminder,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to give our standard sort of geek disclaimer here. Uh,

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Speaker 2: Joe and I are not experts on Star Wars lore.

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Speaker 2: We we we love a lot of it. We know

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Speaker 2: what we love. But you know, there's this is not

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Speaker 2: going to be like a a lore dump sort of episode.

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Speaker 2: So there are things that we're going to talk about

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Speaker 2: that might not completely sync up with canon or extended

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Speaker 2: universe and the various different like religious divisions within Star

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Speaker 2: Wars fandom. Uh So, you know, refer to Wookipedia if

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Speaker 2: you have any additional questions, but certainly right in if

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Speaker 2: you have, you know, if you if you do want

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Speaker 2: to say yes, but actually, uh, right in, well, we're

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Speaker 2: happy to have those conversations.

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Speaker 3: I feel more inclined to give the non expertise caveats

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Speaker 3: about like scientific domains, I would say, when it comes

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Speaker 3: to star Ward. Not even George Lucas is an expert

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Speaker 3: in Star Wars.

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Speaker 2: I firmly believe things like this, like it ends up

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Speaker 2: belonging to everybody, so you can take what you want

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Speaker 2: and make that be your Star Wars, make that be

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Speaker 2: your universe, and so forth. So, you know, trying not

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Speaker 2: to get to me, trying not to get to in

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Speaker 2: a rut over any of it. But at any rate,

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Speaker 2: let's talk about haw Hawk is the sixth planet where

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Speaker 2: I understand, revolving around a small lower level blue white sun.

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Speaker 2: As we all know, it's frigid. It's a frozen world,

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Speaker 2: mostly known to humans anyway for its vast glacier fields

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Speaker 2: and snow drifts. It also has a breathable atmosphere, which

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Speaker 2: from our point of view is a big deal. But

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Speaker 2: I guess within the Star Wars universe is not that exceptional.

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Speaker 2: There are playing planets that have atmospheres that most humanoids

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Speaker 2: can breathe.

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Speaker 3: Seems like almost all of them, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, as the Wildlife of Star Wars field Guide

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Speaker 2: points out, there is a currently a great deal of

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Speaker 2: geothermal heat that never fully reaches the surface, yet adequately

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Speaker 2: warms various underground crake, underground caves, and grottos. So the

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Speaker 2: surface is also frequently pelted with castaways from the nearby

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Speaker 2: meteor belt. But still life persists on the planet and

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Speaker 2: to a great degree within the planet. So in these

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Speaker 2: various caves of rock, caves of ice, there's life down there,

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Speaker 2: and in particular where to understand, there's like nd in

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Speaker 2: plant matter, because there seems to be enough plant matter

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Speaker 2: on this world for an herbiv war population to thrive.

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Speaker 2: And these are of course the tontons. We mainly see

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Speaker 2: the one tonton species. I think in the movies this

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Speaker 2: is sometimes referred to as the giant tonton. But as

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Speaker 2: this book gets into and various other bits of Star

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Speaker 2: Wars you know, extended lore, have explored, there may be

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Speaker 2: as many as fifteen tons ton species, and so you

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Speaker 2: have like smaller tontons that are like crawling or climbing tontons,

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Speaker 2: and this just happens to be the biggest one that

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Speaker 2: can be domesticated or at least utilized as a steed

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Speaker 2: by humanoid visitors to this world.

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Speaker 3: Now that I think about it, the movie never actually

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Speaker 3: says that the tontons are herbivores, does it. You just

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Speaker 3: assume that since you see one get attacked by the wampa,

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Speaker 3: a larger, obviously carnivorous animal. So at least in my brain,

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Speaker 3: it went like, oh, okay, tontons are prey, therefore they

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Speaker 3: are herbivores. And I guess because animals that we ride

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Speaker 3: in reality tend to be herbivores. I know, if there

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Speaker 3: are any standard carnivorous animals that people ride as a

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Speaker 3: regular thing.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's weird enough that the carnivorous feline cat

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Speaker 2: is in such close proximity to us, you know, an

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Speaker 2: hot meat eater. But but yeah, I don't think we

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Speaker 2: ever see the tontons eating the movie. But yeah, we

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Speaker 2: just it's implied. It's or we just assume that they

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Speaker 2: eat plants, so therefore there must be enough plant on

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Speaker 2: Hoth or in Hath to sustain a sizable population of tontons,

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Speaker 2: and there are enough tontons to sustain some population of

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Speaker 2: apex predators the wamp interesting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but as you're alluding to, those plants must be

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Speaker 3: mostly in places that we don't see in the film,

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Speaker 3: because again we just see these like glaciers and ice field. Right,

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Speaker 3: there's obviously not much to eat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they must be eating something that is under the snow,

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Speaker 2: under the eyes in one way or another. And geothormally

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Speaker 2: thermally heated cavern seems like a good enough beat. So

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Speaker 2: what does a tantan look like? I think most of

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Speaker 2: you are probably picturing it, but I or you if

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Speaker 2: you have video you saw me hold up the toy

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Speaker 2: and you're in that case, maybe reminded that it. It

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Speaker 2: kind of looks like a cross between a ram, a goat,

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Speaker 2: and a dinosaur.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's very good. Yes, like theropod dinosaur posture

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Speaker 3: on the two back legs with the large hips and

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Speaker 3: then a counterbalancing tail and a big upper body. But

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Speaker 3: then yeah, a kind of fluffy, furry kind of appearance,

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Speaker 3: more like a goat with those rams horns, and then

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Speaker 3: the face is a little bit goat and also just

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Speaker 3: a little bit muppet a little bit luf dragon sort of.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And I don't know if this makes sense, but

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Speaker 2: I used to think that they kind of look like

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Speaker 2: George Washington in the face. I don't know if that

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Speaker 2: makes a lot of sense, but I'll hold it up here.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I just as a kid, I would

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Speaker 2: look at that and think it kind of looks like

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Speaker 2: the guy on the dollar bill. But maybe that was

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Speaker 2: just me.

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Speaker 3: I honestly can't say I see it, but I'm trying.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So what is this? Is it a mammal? Is

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Speaker 2: it a reptile? Well, some of the lore books would

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Speaker 2: say it is a repto mammalian creature, So some sort

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Speaker 2: of warm blooded creature with scales, fur, and thick blubber.

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Speaker 2: The let's see sort of some other things worth mentioning.

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Speaker 2: The field Guide here says, you know, I think the

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Speaker 2: other thing that is established in the movie is that

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Speaker 2: they smell bad. Characters are always commenting on this. The

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Speaker 2: field Guide says that they can somehow turn this odor off,

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Speaker 2: or at least cease to produce it while resting or

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Speaker 2: holding up with young so as not to attract predators.

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Speaker 2: Though given that they seem to have only one predator.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps that predator just simply doesn't depend on smell. I

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Speaker 2: don't know, I'm just throwing that out there.

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Speaker 3: Interesting. Well, now, I never thought about this. I always

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Speaker 3: just assumed the idea that they smell bad is like

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Speaker 3: people who aren't used to being around farm animals might

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Speaker 3: think that farm animals smell bad. But I guess the

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Speaker 3: other place you could go is that they have an

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Speaker 3: incredibly like biologically intentional, pungent odor like a skunk, that

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Speaker 3: is somehow used for something.

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Speaker 2: Right right like you could be I mean, certainly, it

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Speaker 2: could be a way of communicating. It could be you know,

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Speaker 2: it could be marking their territory. It could be the

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Speaker 2: result of some sort of you know, some of the

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Speaker 2: oils in their coat or somehow pungent. Or it could

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Speaker 2: indeed be something that is, you know, signaling stay away

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Speaker 2: from me, like don't eat me, Wampa, I smell terrible.

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Speaker 2: It could be defense. It could even be a signal

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Speaker 2: that there perhaps is something that they consume that makes

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Speaker 2: them potentially toxic for a predator to consume. And we

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Speaker 2: may come back to that idea here in a bit.

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Speaker 2: Interesting Okay, Now, as a kid, I'm not sure I

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Speaker 2: ever really made that connection between tonton and dinosaur though

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Speaker 2: I just I was super into dinosaurs. I really love

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Speaker 2: Star Wars, but I didn't like think of them as

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Speaker 2: being really all that connected somehow.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: The toys probably even interacted with each other, but I

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Speaker 2: just thought of the tonton more as a kind of

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Speaker 2: goat or ram like monster.

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Speaker 3: Well, can I offer one reason that I think our

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Speaker 3: brains might not have gone to this connection, even though

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Speaker 3: morphologically it seems so obvious. And it's the Taunton exists

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Speaker 3: on an ice world. And at least when I was

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Speaker 3: growing up, I would have said dinosaurs existed in a

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Speaker 3: hot weather and in hot weather only. I don't think

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Speaker 3: when I was a kid, I would have even entertained

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Speaker 3: the possibility that there could be a dinosaur on an

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Speaker 3: icy snowy world. But now I start to wonder, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: what exactly was the temperature range of environments that could

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Speaker 3: be occupied by dinosaurs? What do we know about that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a fascinating topic, and I think you're

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Speaker 2: right on because when we were kids, we're looking at

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Speaker 2: various excellent examples of paleo art and what's happening. It's

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Speaker 2: a tropical environment, there's a volcano erupting in the background,

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Speaker 2: there are no snow flurries, there's no ice, and you know,

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Speaker 2: and they and all the dinosaurs are presented as being

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Speaker 2: just very large reptile creatures that we instantly associate with

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Speaker 2: warmer climates.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and they live in hell in literal like me,

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Speaker 3: molten lava environment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, to be clear, we are

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Speaker 2: talking about a distant Earth that was on the whole warmer.

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Speaker 2: And I think this idea of dinosaurs living in a

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Speaker 2: warm world and a kind of a tropical environment certainly

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Speaker 2: was more of the mainstay back in nineteen eighty and

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Speaker 2: even fifteen years ago. I think this was more common,

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Speaker 2: but paleontology increasingly paints a picture of prehistoric settings in

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Speaker 2: which dinosaurs sometimes lived in colder climates. So, and this

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Speaker 2: would actually include bipedal therapods. Bipedal therapods are among the

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Speaker 2: remains found in what is now southeastern Australia, which over

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Speaker 2: one hundred and ten million years ago, would have existed

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Speaker 2: within the Cretaceous Antarctic Circle. Is explored in the twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty article How Dinosaurs Thrived in the Snow by Riley

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Speaker 2: Black For Smithsonian Magazine. This region was a temperate rainforest,

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Speaker 2: but it's three months dark. Winters would have been harsh,

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Speaker 2: featuring snow and ice. We also have evidence from the

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Speaker 2: Prince Creek formation in northern i Alaska. This suggests similar

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Speaker 2: snow dinos from that part of the world as well. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I don't think I would have been able to tell

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Speaker 3: you before reading up for this episode that there were

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Speaker 3: actually dinosaurs that lived above the Arctic Circle during the

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Speaker 3: Cretaceous period or during the Mesozoic generally, that there were

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Speaker 3: dinosaurs that you know, they probably had similar kinds of

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Speaker 3: adaptations to many larger animals that live in far northern

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Speaker 3: or southern climates near polar climates today. But yeah, we

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Speaker 3: know there were some large dinosaurs that lived up there,

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Speaker 3: and that raises a lot of interesting questions like did

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Speaker 3: they survive by migration or did they have extreme life

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Speaker 3: adaptations to stay up in those kinds of conditions year round.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and a lot of these questions I think

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Speaker 2: are still being discussed and we're still working out the answers.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, you'd be dealing with situations where for like

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Speaker 2: three months out of the year, this region might be

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Speaker 2: shrouded in darkness and subject to some extreme temperatures, and

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Speaker 2: yet the dinosaurs seem to have existed there at least

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Speaker 2: some populations of them remained through these periods. So I

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Speaker 2: was reading a bit more about this in Paleontology snow

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Speaker 2: Falling on Dinosaurs by Fluorian Modespakta. This was published in

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Speaker 2: Current Biology twenty twenty one, and the author points out that, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we used to think that dinosaur activity was limited more

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Speaker 2: towards the warmer climates on a warmer Earth, but paleontology

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Speaker 2: finds in southern Australia in Antarctica as well, and then

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Speaker 2: also Northern Siberia and Northern Canada have challenged those assumptions.

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Speaker 2: Prince Creek formation findings have painted a picture of considerable

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Speaker 2: polar dino diversity from seven different families plus one bird.

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Speaker 2: And this includes large and small bodied dinos. It includes

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Speaker 2: both herbivores and carnivores. And this also includes the facultatively

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Speaker 2: bipedal hydrosaur that was once thought to be a separate

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Speaker 2: species and had a rarely had its own name, but

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Speaker 2: has now thought I think to basically be a variety

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Speaker 2: of the Edmontosaurus. But that could change. These things change

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Speaker 2: but yeah, it paints this picture. And we've seen this

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Speaker 2: in more more recent and updated paleol art, and I

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Speaker 2: believe it's made its way into some of the big

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Speaker 2: budget computer animated documentaries about prehistoric life, where we're now

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Speaker 2: seeing images of dinosaurs things we would even you know, identify, readibly, readily,

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Speaker 2: even with feathers, as dinosaurs roaming about in some sort

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Speaker 2: of a snowy, icy setting. Now, without getting into the

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Speaker 2: larger topic of broad dinosaur metabolism, the consensus today tends

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Speaker 2: to be that therapod dinosaurs were likely warm blooded, and

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Speaker 2: the same is likely true for the Edmontosaurus as well.

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Speaker 2: And as you know, it's interesting to think about about

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Speaker 2: this our current take on all this when considering the

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Speaker 2: tanton because when the when the Tonton was conceived, I

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Speaker 2: don't think there was any sense of like, hey, I

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Speaker 2: think dinosaurs actually were warm blooded and lived in snowy environments.

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Speaker 2: You know. It seems more like a clear Sci fi

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Speaker 2: hybridization of mammals and reptiles, which of course is a

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Speaker 2: great way to try and conceive what alien life forms

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Speaker 2: in an alien world might look like. If you look

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Speaker 2: at some of the Ralph McCrory early sketches for what

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Speaker 2: a ton tan was going to be. They're fascinating because

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Speaker 2: they kind of look like they look more like large

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Speaker 2: rodents or kind of like weird furry kangaroos.

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Speaker 3: Well, I see two different illustrations that you've included in

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Speaker 3: the outline here, I'd say, in the left one, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I see the large rodent. It looks like a big

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Speaker 3: mouse with a long shaggy tail and huge hind legs, bite,

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Speaker 3: big bipedal mouse. And then the one on the right

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Speaker 3: to me just looks like a furry velociraptor.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it does.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But it's also interesting to think about this as Okay,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of like a you know, thought experiment of

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Speaker 2: like what if reptiles could live in a snowy environment. Well,

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Speaker 2: they'd have to be furry, they'd have to be kind

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Speaker 2: of half mammal, right, But you know, we increasingly, I guess,

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Speaker 2: realize that this isn't really necessary. A creature like this

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Speaker 2: without fur, though possibly with considerable feathers, could certainly work

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Speaker 2: in an environment similar to hawk and as we've discussed

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Speaker 2: before in the show, the penguin is just a great

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Speaker 2: example of how a dinosaur descendant does just fine in

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Speaker 2: a polar climate.

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Speaker 3: That's true. Penguins are dinosaurs, Yeah, the strange thing to

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Speaker 3: think about.

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Speaker 2: Now. We'll come back to some other scenes with tontons

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Speaker 2: here in a bit, but there's one scene involving the

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Speaker 2: tonton in Empire Strikes Back that is I'm sure already

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Speaker 2: on everybody's minds, and we teased it out a little earlier,

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Speaker 2: and that is, you know what happens inside of a

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Speaker 2: tonton sometimes.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes sometimes what can be made of what's inside a

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Speaker 3: tonton if you're too cold? Yeah, So to set up

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Speaker 3: this scene at the beginning of the movie, Luke Skywalker

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Speaker 3: is out scouting. He's on the surface of Hawk, the

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Speaker 3: snowy world, on a tonton when he gets attacked and

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Speaker 3: dragged away by a wampa. And we're gonna come back

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Speaker 3: and talk about the wampa later in this episode, but

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Speaker 3: it is shown to be some kind of bipedal, carnivorous beast,

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Speaker 3: like a predatory, abominable snowman.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Luke later escapes the wampa's ice cave and then he

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Speaker 3: stumbles out into the snow as night is falling. So

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Speaker 3: it's going to be getting even colder on Hawth and

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Speaker 3: there he has a vision of his dead master, Obi

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Speaker 3: Wan Kenobi Obi Wan is telling him, Hey, gotta go

381
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Speaker 3: say hi to Yoda, Gotta go visit Yoda, And so

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Speaker 3: Luke is there in the cold saying Yoda, diego bus system. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 3: Han solo back at the rebel base. He learns that

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Speaker 3: Luke has not come in for the night, and so

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Speaker 3: he gets concerned about his friend and then rides out

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Speaker 3: on his own Tonton looking for him. So Han finds

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00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:03,000
Speaker 3: Luke already collapsed in snow and delirious, and right when

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Speaker 3: Han gets there, his own Taunton dies. So improvising Han

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Speaker 3: takes Luke's lightsaber. I think this is the only time

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Speaker 3: in the main series we see Han solo using a lightsaber.

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Speaker 3: But he takes Luke's lightsaber and then he awkwardly turns

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Speaker 3: it on and slices open the Taunton belly, showing these

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Speaker 3: guts bulging out, many of which look like like transparent,

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Speaker 3: slimy white balloons. Kind of gross little appearance, and then

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Speaker 3: Han shoves the semi conscious loop inside the Tnton. We

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Speaker 3: don't see this directly happening. We get the Tonton in

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Speaker 3: the foreground and then you see something's happening on the

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Speaker 3: other side. You get some squishing sound effects, and Han says,

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Speaker 3: you know, it might not smell good, but it'll keep

400
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Speaker 3: him warm until Han is able to build the shelter.

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00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 3: And we don't see what happens after that until the

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Speaker 3: next morning when the search party is out in the

403
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Speaker 3: snow speeders and they find that our heroes have survived

404
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 3: survived the night. So yeah, we don't see anything between

405
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Speaker 3: stuffing Luke into the guts and the next morning when

406
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,679
Speaker 3: they're all right. But it does work, we are told.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: First of all, I was wondering, are there any direct

409
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Speaker 3: biological parallels to this? Is there an organism in nature

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Speaker 3: that kills another large organism and then crawls inside it

411
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Speaker 3: for warmth in snowy conditions? And maybe I overlooked something,

412
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Speaker 3: But I was searching for something like this for a

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Speaker 3: long time and didn't find anything that really fit the bill.

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Speaker 3: So as far as I can tell, there is nothing

415
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Speaker 3: in nature like this. There are animals that crawl inside

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Speaker 3: other dead organisms, but they tend to do this for

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Speaker 3: reasons other than seeking warmth. Like there are animals that

418
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Speaker 3: will make use of the physical structure of another dead animal,

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Speaker 3: like the bones of another dead animal, to provide some

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Speaker 3: kind of shelter, maybe sheltering protection in the rib cage

421
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Speaker 3: of a larger animal, using that as a wind break

422
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Speaker 3: or something. Or there are animals, there are plenty of

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Speaker 3: animals that go inside another animal to eat that animal

424
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Speaker 3: or to lay their eggs in there, but they're using

425
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Speaker 3: the flesh as an energy source, not trying to capture

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Speaker 3: and make use of the residual warmth of the stead animal.

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Speaker 3: So again, if listeners out there have a great example

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Speaker 3: from nature of an animal that actually goes inside another

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Speaker 3: animal just to capture the residual warmth after that animal's death,

430
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Speaker 3: let us know. Contact that stuff to blow your mind

431
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 3: dot com, because I would love to find one. But

432
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 3: I don't think there's an example of that except humans.

433
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 3: There are some stories I want to talk about in

434
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 3: human history.

435
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 2: Before we get into that, I will add that there's

436
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,440
Speaker 2: something you can do that doesn't involve cutting open another animal.

437
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 2: And we've already mentioned in passing the penguin, but we

438
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: see this with all sorts of species. But just getting

439
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 2: really close to another organism is a great way to

440
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 2: share heat with that organism, and we see this in penguins,

441
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,120
Speaker 2: we see this in humans. We see this in relationships

442
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 2: like humans and dogs, dogs and cats, cats and humans,

443
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 2: where on a cold day these organisms will come together

444
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 2: and share heat without actually crawling inside each other's bodies,

445
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 2: though it may seem like like your cat may want

446
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 2: to do this on really cold days.

447
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I guess that would have been the next

448
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 3: best option. If there were no Tonton there, and if

449
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 3: Han did not have a shelter that he could build,

450
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 3: I guess they'd just have to kind of huddle up

451
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 3: and snuggle and see if they can make it through.

452
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 3: But I think the prospect for Luke in that situation

453
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 3: would not be very good. So yeah, the question the

454
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 3: next question to look at is are there any historical

455
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 3: analogs of the Tonton sleeping bag scene? And I think

456
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 3: the answer is yes.

457
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 4: Now.

458
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 3: When I started searching for stories like this, initially, I

459
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 3: found a lot of sources bringing up the American frontiersman

460
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 3: and fur trapper Hugh Glass, who lived roughly seventeen eighty

461
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 3: three to eighteen thirty three. A fictionalized version of this

462
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,160
Speaker 3: historical figure is the main character of the twenty fifteen

463
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 3: film The Revenant. This character is played by Leonardo DiCaprio

464
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 3: in the movie, and in the movie there is a

465
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 3: scene where the character based on Hugh Glass survives a

466
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 3: freezing night I think a blizzard by gutting a horse

467
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 3: and crawling into the body for warmth. However, from what

468
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 3: I could find, this story is a fictional invention for

469
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,479
Speaker 3: the film, not something based on not based on anything

470
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 3: that actually happened in the life of Hugh Glass. But

471
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 3: I did find one apparently real and very well documented

472
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 3: account from much more recently so. One of my main

473
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 3: sources here is an article in The Washington Post from

474
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 3: February twenty sixteen by Karen Bruiliard, and the title of

475
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 3: the article is, move over, DiCaprio, this man really did

476
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,360
Speaker 3: survive the cold inside a dead horse.

477
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 2: Wow.

478
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 3: Again the title, they're referencing the scene in The Revenant.

479
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 3: And then I'm just going to read like a lead

480
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,959
Speaker 3: paragraph from this article quote. If you're wondering whether the

481
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 3: carcass as tent technique would work in real life, let

482
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 3: us introduce you to Richard Daily sixty eight, who is

483
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 3: very likely one of the few Americans who has sheltered

484
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 3: inside a horse.

485
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,640
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm just saying this better has been really necessary.

486
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 3: You're about to hear the whole story. You can make

487
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 3: your own decisions about this, and many people have judged

488
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 3: the men involved in this story. So I don't know,

489
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 3: we'll see what we think. The event in question took

490
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 3: place in November nineteen eighty three. At the time, Daily

491
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 3: was so this would be three years after Empire strikes.

492
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're in a post empire world.

493
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 3: He post empire world, yes, and that will become relevant. Actually,

494
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 3: at the time, Daily was thirty five years old working

495
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 3: as a firefighter in Caldwell, Idaho, which is a small

496
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 3: city west of Boise. One day that November, Daily decided

497
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 3: to go on a several day long hunting trip at

498
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 3: a place called Cuddy Mountain, which is north of Caldwell

499
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 3: near the border with Oregon, and he took along his neighbor,

500
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 3: Stephen McCoy. They were going to be traveling on horseback.

501
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 3: And so imagine out in the forest around this mountain,

502
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 3: hunting on horseback for several days at a time and

503
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 3: camping out. And the article also, I should just say

504
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 3: mentions Daily's horse's name. The name is She's Obliging, Okay,

505
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 3: the name it will become more tragic as the story

506
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 3: goes on. Rob I included in the outline a picture

507
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 3: you can see of Richard Daley and Stephen McCoy's. This

508
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 3: is from the AP, the Associated Press article that came

509
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 3: out on this event from November of nineteen eighty three.

510
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 3: I mean, they look like some real, real cowboys. They're

511
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 3: wearing cowboy hats kind of.

512
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:03,719
Speaker 4: I don't know.

513
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 3: Steve McCoy looks like he's I mean, it's a black

514
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 3: and white photo, but I can sense a real denim

515
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 3: tuxedo thing going on with his outfit here.

516
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, these are some real cow hens right here.

517
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 3: So the two men on their two horses went out

518
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 3: hunting as winter was falling and it started to snow.

519
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 3: While they were out on the mountain on the third day,

520
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 3: they shot two large deer, and then while loading one

521
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 3: of the carcasses onto the horse, she's obliging the horse.

522
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 3: The horse's body at least did not oblige, and it

523
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 3: buckled and fell under the weight, and that broke daily

524
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 3: saddle in the process. After this, there are some shifting

525
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 3: plans and recalculations about where to go next and what

526
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 3: to do, but in short, they end up trudging through

527
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 3: the snow with one of the deer carcasses but not

528
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 3: the other one, deciding they're going to come back for

529
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 3: the second carcass. And while they're doing this, the storm

530
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 3: is getting worse and worse with terrible wind. In the

531
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 3: article from the original event the event the ap article,

532
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 3: they estimate fifty to eighty mile per hour winds. Eighty

533
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 3: mile per hour winds are going to be like that's

534
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 3: hurricane territory. But they also estimate earlier in this storm

535
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 3: fifty mile per hour wind so really high winds. They

536
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 3: say it's very cold, and it also sounds like maybe

537
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 3: they were not I think they were sort of prepared,

538
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 3: but not prepared enough for whether this bad. So it

539
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 3: starts raining and they get completely soaked, and then the

540
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 3: rain turns to sleet again, and so they are soaked

541
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 3: to the bone, freezing out on this mountain, and they

542
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,479
Speaker 3: get lost and they can't find their truck. The article

543
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 3: mentions that they were so cold they had been shivering uncontrollably,

544
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 3: and then they stopped shivering. When you stop shivering, that's

545
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 3: a dangerous sign of hypothermia. This is you're starting to

546
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 3: reach life threatening conditions here. So they abandon the plan

547
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 3: of finding the truck and focus instead on immediately building

548
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 3: a fire. They did have matches and kindling and fuel,

549
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 3: but it was so windy and so wet that they

550
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 3: couldn't get a fire started. And at this point, these

551
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 3: two guys are going into panic mode. They knew they

552
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 3: were about to cross some points of no return and

553
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 3: probably freeze to death. So here here, I'm also consulting

554
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 3: that Associated Press article from nineteen eighty three that says

555
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 3: the first thing they tried to do was Daily was like, well,

556
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 3: I'm going to skin this deer carcass and we can

557
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 3: wrap ourselves in the hide and that'll save us. But

558
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 3: quoting Daily, it says, quote, I couldn't function after half

559
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 3: the hide was skinned out, and I was watching Steve.

560
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 3: His clothes weren't as wind resistant as mine, and he

561
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 3: was just standing there, almost asleep and watching me. So

562
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 3: at this point, Daily guessed that they had less than

563
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 3: an hour until they were dead if they didn't do something,

564
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 3: but McCoy felt that somehow he knew they would survive.

565
00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 4: Again.

566
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,479
Speaker 3: From the AP article, McCoy saying, I just knew that

567
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 3: wasn't the way I was going to go, and then

568
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 3: it narrates McCoy and Daily earlier had discussed had discussed

569
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 3: stories they'd heard about using the body of an animal

570
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 3: for warmth, but they put off a decision until McCoy's

571
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 3: increasingly slurred speech alarmed them to action. Now, I want

572
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 3: to note that this original AP article characterizes the ideas

573
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 3: coming from stories they had heard, which is a vague

574
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 3: and almost euphemistic sounding attribution. The twenty sixteen article from

575
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 3: the Washington Post that has this interview with Daily is

576
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 3: more specific. Quote by then, it was about ten pm.

577
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 3: That's when McCoy brought up the ton Ton scene in

578
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 3: the Empire strikes back.

579
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 2: Oh wow, so this is fascinating. It almost feels like

580
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 2: I'm not casting a lot of blame here, but maybe

581
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 2: in subsequent tellings of the story, and even telling of

582
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 2: it within a like a journalistic framework, there's maybe a

583
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: tendency to lean more into the pure cowboy aesthetics of

584
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 2: the thing.

585
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 3: Or just not say what it was.

586
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: It was like that, you know, don't bring up Star Wars.

587
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 2: It's such a such a this is such a like

588
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 2: a rustic story of survival. If we bring Star Wars,

589
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 2: it's just gonna feel kind of jarring. We can bring

590
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: that up in the conversation. It just feels kind of jarring, right.

591
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 3: Well, to be clear, it's not the only story like

592
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 3: this in reality. You know, there have been other claims

593
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 3: of people crawling inside animals for warmth and history that

594
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 3: are not very well documented. It seems like so maybe

595
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 3: they could have brought that up also. But here Daily

596
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 3: is specific. He says, yes, McCoy brought up the ton

597
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 3: Ton scene, and the Empire strikes back.

598
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 2: Well, I mean it would, it would. There's no indication

599
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 2: that they said this, but I mean you could say

600
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 2: tonton me and you would know what I meant by that.

601
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 2: You would know I need to cut open of the

602
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 2: arge animal carcass and shove me inside it.

603
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 3: So after this, they did not wait. They shot the horses,

604
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 3: and they immediately got to work with the gutting. Here,

605
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 3: I'll quote from the Washington Post quote, lest you think

606
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 3: gutting a horse under such circumstances would be revolting, Daily

607
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 3: recalls it as almost euphoric.

608
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 2: Quote.

609
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 3: Its guts came out all over your hands and wrists.

610
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 3: He said, you can't imagine how good it felt. Immediately

611
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 3: warmed you up. So at first, they thought they could

612
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,239
Speaker 3: shelter together inside one of the horses. That makes sense, right,

613
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 3: You get two men in one horse, you can share

614
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 3: each other's body heat.

615
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 2: And horses are huge animals.

616
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, horse is very big, so you would think you

617
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 3: could get two men inside the horse. But no, it

618
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 3: seems like our intuitions are quite wrong here. Daily says

619
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 3: that not only could they not both get into one horse,

620
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 3: Daily could not even get all of himself alone into

621
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 3: the horse's gutted body cavity. He got his upper body in,

622
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 3: wedging his shoulders and head into the top of the

623
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 3: rib case, but his legs were hanging out and he

624
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 3: had to cover them with saddle blankets.

625
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 2: Oh god, this is just this is at once like

626
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 2: oddly kind of hilarious, but also just so grizzly and serious,

627
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: Like I feel like my body doesn't even know how

628
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 2: to react to the telling.

629
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 3: So they each had to get inside one of the horses,

630
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 3: and Daily describes his reaction as initially relief like warming

631
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 3: and counteracting of the hypothermia, and then claustrophobia and disgust.

632
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 3: He says that every couple of hours he would panic

633
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 3: and have to get back out of the horse, but

634
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 3: then would start shivering and freezing again and have to

635
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 3: get back inside. Also, this fix was only temporary, they say.

636
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 3: By about two am, which is about four to five

637
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 3: hours after the horses were killed, the carcasses had cooled

638
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 3: significantly and were no longer providing much warmth. By five am,

639
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 3: the men were again shivering uncontrollably. At that point they

640
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 3: felt that they could get out of the horse and

641
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 3: continue looking for their truck, which the ap article says

642
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 3: turned out to be only about a mile and a

643
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 3: quarter from where they had been. So one of those

644
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 3: things where if they'd just not known where to go,

645
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 3: they wouldn't you know, they could have just made it

646
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 3: to their truck.

647
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. But as we've discussed before, like people become lost

648
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,280
Speaker 2: in wilderness scenarios all the time, not that far from

649
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 2: some sort of point of reference or possible refuge. It's

650
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 2: just that's what happens to the human mind when we

651
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 2: get lost in the woods without you know, with the

652
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 2: caveat that's you know, certain preparations and certain knowledge can

653
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 2: make the difference, but not always.

654
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, when you don't know where to go,

655
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 3: you don't know where to go.

656
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then extenuating conditions with the horrible weather and

657
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 2: and you know, shivering cold understandable.

658
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 3: So they both survived the incident. But when word got

659
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 3: out about this, many locals were outraged at the two men.

660
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 3: The article says that some accuse them of doing this

661
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 3: as a publicity stunt. I don't know if that means

662
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 3: that they thought that the men made the story up,

663
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 3: or if they like actually did it but just for fame.

664
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 3: The latter idea seems crazy to me.

665
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, because in this scenario, they would have both killed

666
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 2: their horses in order to achieve this slight level of fame,

667
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: and it just doesn't seem very reasonable.

668
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 3: Apparently McCoy was deeply shaken by these events and moved

669
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 3: away from the area not long after. But then, to

670
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 3: quote from towards the end of that article, it says,

671
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 3: quote Silvana Daily, Richard Daly's wife, said he later took

672
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 3: her to see the dead horse's bones, another trip laden

673
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 3: with misadventures. Everything to Richard is, Gee, this is a

674
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 3: lot farther than I remembered, she said. So there is

675
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 3: one case where it's very well documented that some eyes

676
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 3: actually were on the verge of freezing to death, crawled

677
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:08,439
Speaker 3: inside of a large, recently dead animal carcass and did

678
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:13,280
Speaker 3: manage to survive, probably due to being inside the dead animal.

679
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 3: So but my question was, Okay, it works in this scenario.

680
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess we don't know for sure whether

681
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 3: they would have died otherwise, but it seems likely it

682
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 3: worked in this scenario. But would this normally work? Is

683
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 3: this something that generally has some validity as a survival technique?

684
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 3: Went around reading several different articles and experiments that looked

685
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 3: into this in different ways. So I read a twenty

686
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 3: fifteen article in Slate by Laura Bradley, which again was

687
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:49,720
Speaker 3: connected to the scene in the Revenant film. This article

688
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 3: consulted a couple of experts on the question, and it

689
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 3: quotes one named Robert Reid, who is a research wildlife

690
00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 3: biologist with the USGS. Reid says he thinks, yes, at

691
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 3: least temporarily, a large animal carcass will provide residual heat,

692
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 3: but it will start to cool right after death, so

693
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 3: this is going to be temporary. He estimates that a

694
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 3: very large animal like a moose or an elk would

695
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 3: buy you about six hours worth of heat. Remember that

696
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 3: Daily said that the horse stopped being warm after four

697
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 3: to five hours, And when you really think about it,

698
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 3: once the horse stops being warm, that's not just like

699
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 3: a net, you know, like no benefit. That actually becomes

700
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 3: worse than being out of the horse, right because you're

701
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 3: in this like colder thing that's wet around you. It

702
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 3: is going to be sapping heat from you.

703
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's it's like a really gross version of

704
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 2: what happens when it's when you or maybe at your

705
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 2: house and you'd decide, hey, it's a cold night, I'm

706
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 2: gonna take a hot bath. Well that hot bath is

707
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 2: great at first, but then it becomes a slightly less

708
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 2: hot bath, then it becomes a warm bath, and if

709
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 2: you stay in long enough, it becomes a cold bath.

710
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 2: And yeah, getting out of that, you're going to be

711
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 2: even worse off than when you went in.

712
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's obviously going to be bad to be

713
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 3: in this cooling in this cooling, wet environment inside the animal.

714
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 3: But the other thing is animal bodies are wet inside,

715
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 3: so getting inside to be almost you know, wet, So

716
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 3: getting inside one gets you wet, and so once you

717
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 3: get out of the animal, you'll also now be wet

718
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,839
Speaker 3: because you have been inside this wet dead animal. Then

719
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 3: again in the daily story, you know that they were

720
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 3: already soaked earlier from the rain and the sleet, so

721
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 3: kind of at that point, like what do you have

722
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 3: to lose? But but yeah, you like you don't want

723
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 3: in a situation where you are at risk of freezing,

724
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 3: getting wet is generally going to make your situation much

725
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 3: much worse. A commonly cited figure is that you lose

726
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 3: body heats something like twenty to twenty five times faster

727
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,720
Speaker 3: if you're wet than if you're dry. So like, getting

728
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 3: wet is the last thing you want to happen in

729
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 3: a in a cold survival so situation.

730
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we've all seen survival scenarios, at least

731
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 2: in movies where individual gets you know, falls into the

732
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 2: water in a wintery environment. Like the next thing they've

733
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: got to do is get out of those wet clothes

734
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: and warm up by the fire. Like the wet clothes

735
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 2: absolutely have to come off. Exactly better to be naked

736
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 2: in the cold than in wet clothes.

737
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 3: You cannot stay wet when it's cold. That is really dangerous. Yeah.

738
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 3: Read also mentions some other things. For example, dead animals

739
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 3: can quickly attract predators such as wolves or bears or

740
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 3: perhaps in our hothcase, wampas. So that could add to

741
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 3: your troubles.

742
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, them is going to be like this is a

743
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 2: tr duncan here, this is perfect.

744
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 3: There you go. I would also add infection risk from

745
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,359
Speaker 3: all those animal guts. But once again, if you are

746
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 3: about to freeze to death anyway, I would say other

747
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 3: concerns take a back seat. And yes, read thinks that

748
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 3: on balance, getting inside the large dead animal would probably

749
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 3: buy you a few hours of survival. And you know

750
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 3: this all, I guess depends on other variables in the scene,

751
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 3: like how long does it take Han to build the

752
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 3: survival shelter. The movie doesn't say what resources are available

753
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 3: once the shelter is built. Is it just a tin

754
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 3: or does it have heaters and dry towels and things

755
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 3: like that? Like all this makes a difference.

756
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And you know, coming back to what you

757
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 2: said about infection risk, I mean Luke survives, and he does,

758
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 2: He's going into the Boca tank that's going to BIOT

759
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 2: take care of everything, so they can worry about that

760
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 2: later if he survives.

761
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 3: Okay, another way in on the question of would this

762
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 3: normally work, the MythBusters tried yes, I would you know,

763
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,879
Speaker 3: good good on them. So this was episode two oh eight.

764
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 3: It was a Star Wars special. Uh and I wasn't

765
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 3: able to watch this. I'm relying on a summary of

766
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 3: the episode from myth results dot com. This is a

767
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 3: website that tracks all of the episodes and what they found.

768
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 3: So in this experiment, they made a model ton ton

769
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 3: out of a big chunk of phone with an outer

770
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 3: layer of synthetic skin and fur lining, and then they

771
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 3: gave it some artificial internal organs so that it would

772
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 3: retain and conduct heat somewhat like a real body. In

773
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 3: this test, they also used an in house dummy called thermoboy,

774
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 3: which I think they had originally made to test something

775
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 3: from the movie Titanic, but they had constructed it to

776
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 3: simulate thermal properties of a human body. So it has

777
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 3: like an internal heater and a circulatory system to simulate

778
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 3: human metabolism and heat distribution. And then they simulated the

779
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 3: conditions of Hawth by building an insulated chamber lined with

780
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 3: dry ice within an industrial freezer, creating conditions of negative

781
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 3: forty degrees celsius. Then for the test, they heated the

782
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 3: dummy and the tonton body to body temperatures of ninety

783
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 3: nine degrees fahrenheit or thirty seven degrees celsius, and they

784
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 3: monitored the temperature of the dummy, reasoning that Luke would

785
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,240
Speaker 3: die if his body temperature fell to eighty two degrees

786
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 3: fahrenheit or twenty eight degrees celsius. And after the two

787
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 3: point five hours that they estimated it would take Han

788
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 3: to build the shelter. I don't know if that's a

789
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 3: good guess or not. I don't know how taken.

790
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 2: Shelter, right, We never see it, not really.

791
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 3: Well, you kind of see some snow piled up in

792
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 3: a few poles, but no, you don't get a good

793
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 3: look at.

794
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 2: It, because that would be making a huge difference. Like,

795
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 2: are we talking some sort of a sci fi collapsible

796
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 2: thing where he just like pushes a button whil a

797
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,720
Speaker 2: shelter or is Han about to make some snow bricks

798
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 2: and build some sort of an IgG loose sculptuous structure

799
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 2: out there on the ice.

800
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 3: You know. I saw something online about some kind of

801
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 3: Star Wars media. I think that had said Mace Windu

802
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 3: carries something called a wallet tent or something. Oh okay,

803
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 3: it's like a little thing that fits in the pocket

804
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 3: and you can flip it out and press a button

805
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 3: and it turns into a full sized tint immediately. Obviously

806
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 3: it'd be good for Honda of something like this, but

807
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 3: the movie makes it sound like it's gonna take him

808
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 3: a while, which is why he has to get Luke

809
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 3: in the Taunton. If you had one of the those

810
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 3: things and it would just instantly assembly, you don't think

811
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 3: the Tonton would be necessary.

812
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, the rebellion clearly doesn't have the resources of the

813
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,760
Speaker 2: Galactic Republic, so I guess that makes sense.

814
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 3: So let's see anyway. Yeah, they said after the two

815
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 3: point five hours that it would take on to build

816
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 3: the shelter. In their guests, the dummy Luke's body had

817
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 3: only gone down to ninety two degrees fahrenheit or thirty

818
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 3: three degrees celsia's, which is not good but not fatal

819
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaker 3: by their estimation. So they deemed the Tonton survival sleeping

820
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 3: bag plausible and not a long term solution, but it

821
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 3: would probably buy Luke's survival for two and a half

822
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 3: hours in their view. Now, on the other hand, I

823
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 3: found an interesting argument that given other specifics of the scene,

824
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 3: in Empire or assumptions about what was going on there,

825
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,760
Speaker 3: This would actually not save Luke. This was an article

826
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 3: from twenty twelve by a writer named Keith Veronese I Believe,

827
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 3: originally for Io nine but now hosted on Gizmoto. In

828
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 3: this article, Verinese uses Newton's law of cooling, which is

829
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 3: a real reliable method for modeling a cooling body after death.

830
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 3: It's not just for a cooling body after death, but

831
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 3: it is used to model that, among other things, and

832
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 3: it is used in reality by forensic investigators to determine

833
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 3: time of death and murder victims. Because you know, if

834
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 3: you have a fairly stable environmental temperature and you know

835
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 3: what that temperature is roughly, you can guess about how

836
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 3: long it takes for a body to cool in that environment.

837
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 3: So Varnese in this article does the math and comes

838
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 3: up with a few estimates based on Luke's starting body

839
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 3: temperature and the ambient surroundings of Hawth, which he estimates

840
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 3: our negative sixty degrees celsius at night. So he says,

841
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 3: if Luke starts at normal body temperature, Hans got a

842
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 3: little bit under an hour before the time he needs

843
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 3: to get Luke dry and warm in the shelter in

844
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 3: order to avoid severe hypothermia and risk of death. He says,

845
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 3: if Luke starts already with mild hypothermia, which he kind

846
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 3: of seems to have in the movie, given the sluggishness

847
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 3: and confusion, Han has only about forty seven minutes. And

848
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 3: I think the difference between this estimate and the mythbuster's

849
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 3: result is not just like theory versus the simulated experiment.

850
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 3: I think it's at least in part due to environmental

851
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,240
Speaker 3: temperature differences. So the MythBusters use that freezer that's negative

852
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 3: forty degrees celsius. This thought experiment uses negative sixty degrees.

853
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 3: So anyway, I would say in summary, I'm not a

854
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 3: survival wilderness survival expert, so you know, don't plan your

855
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 3: survival around anything you've heard on this show. We're just

856
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 3: doing our best based on what we read. But my

857
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 3: best understanding based on everything we've read here is that

858
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 3: crawling inside a recently dead tonton or other large animal

859
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 3: can probably buy you some survival time protecting you from

860
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 3: the cold. Yes, it can do that, but maybe not

861
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 3: as much time as you would think. Somewhere on the

862
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 3: order of less than an hour on the shorter end

863
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 3: to maybe four to six hours, depending on a bunch

864
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 3: of factors like your starting body temperature, your body mass,

865
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 3: the animals starting body temperature, the animal's body mass, and

866
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 3: of course the outside temperature and conditions, and then even

867
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 3: other things that you might not think about, like how

868
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 3: much of your body you can get inside the animal,

869
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 3: because like, here's the guy you know in that one

870
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 3: story where he's like, well, I can crawl inside a horse,

871
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 3: but it turns out, nope, not enough room inside the

872
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 3: horse for me to get in there.

873
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, like if the tonton hadn't been big enough, like

874
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 2: couldn't have fit all of Luke in there, he might

875
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 2: have lost an arm or something.

876
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally.

877
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 3: In one of the articles I was reading, they consult

878
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 3: a guy who I think was just being a little

879
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 3: too happy go lucky about the experiment. He was like,

880
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 3: if you really want to do it right, so you

881
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:55,800
Speaker 3: can get your whole body inside and close up the incision,

882
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 3: you should also cut out the animal's trachea so you

883
00:47:58,320 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 3: can use it as a breathing tube.

884
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 2: And I don't know, Okay, that's it.

885
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 3: And then of course you know this, it could possibly

886
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 3: buy you a short amount of time to stave off

887
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,879
Speaker 3: severe hypothermia. But it comes with many dangers and downsides

888
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 3: besides just being gross. You know, you got the exposure

889
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 3: to potentially pathogenic bacteria, could attract predators, it gets you

890
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 3: wet if you're not already wet, and probably some other stuff.

891
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 3: I'm not even thinking.

892
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 4: Who knows.

893
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 2: Well, that's fascinating, you know. I trust On Solo, so

894
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 2: when he does this in the film, I assume this

895
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 2: is absolutely the best option. He's not going to mess around.

896
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 2: But yeah, I really had no idea exactly how this

897
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 2: matched up with reality or about that amazing but again

898
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 2: post Empire example of someone actually doing something similar to

899
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 2: this in the.

900
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 3: Wild, seemingly inspired by the film.

901
00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:58,760
Speaker 2: Yeah crazy.

902
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 3: Now, if I can offer a critique of Han Solo's form,

903
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 3: I would say the movie really makes it look like

904
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 3: Han Solo does not appropriately gut the animals.

905
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:11,879
Speaker 2: Doesn't guide it at all.

906
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 3: No, I don't see anything coming out. I just see

907
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 3: the slice. You see the guts kind of pup, kind

908
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,839
Speaker 3: of splooping out a little bit, but he doesn't pull

909
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 3: them out, so he's not creating a cavity inside. It

910
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 3: seems like he is over stuffing this couch here with

911
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 3: Luke's body going in. Just get in there, kid, Yeah,

912
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 3: I don't know if there's gonna be room.

913
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you did this raise his other questions about I

914
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 2: don't remember if they established how long the republic, I'm

915
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 2: sorry the rebellion had been on hath like, how long

916
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 2: have people been coming here? How long did it take

917
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 2: to do at least partially domesticate the tontons? You know?

918
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 2: How much like folk knowledge is there about Well, if

919
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 2: you get into a jam, you need to cut one

920
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,359
Speaker 2: of these tontons open and shove your friend inside of it.

921
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 2: I'm not sure. Maybe this is lore that exists with

922
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:00,720
Speaker 2: other planets as well, that's true.

923
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 3: We don't know if Han is doing something that he

924
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 3: just thought of in the moment, or if he has

925
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 3: received wisdom about this. That's true.

926
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 4: We don't know, all right.

927
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 2: Well, for the rest of the episode, we're going to

928
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 2: turn back to the Wampa, and I do want to

929
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 2: want to show off that I am. I'm drinking my

930
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 2: water from my Wampa tiki mug here whilst we record this.

931
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 2: Those of you with video can see that if not

932
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 2: look it up, you can find these things everywhere. But yeah,

933
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 2: The Wampa is, as we discussed, kind of like a

934
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 2: big yetty, like a big abominable snowman, you know, large,

935
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 2: at least partially bipedal creature, has a gorilla like locomotion,

936
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 2: and the creature is certainly terrifying an Empire. But we

937
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 2: don't even in the theatrical cut. We don't even get

938
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 2: to see some of these additional sequences, right.

939
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 3: Oh, that's right. Yeah, there are deleted scenes from Empire.

940
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 3: I don't know if they were fully even filmed, but

941
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,839
Speaker 3: at least planned and partially filmed scenes where I think

942
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 3: it's while the Empire is attacking the rebel base on

943
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:13,720
Speaker 3: Hawk that also some wampas get loose in the base,

944
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 3: and I think you get to see a wampa like

945
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,840
Speaker 3: grabbing a storm trooper and yanking it behind a doorway

946
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 3: or something. Yeah, it's been a while since I've seen it,

947
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 3: but I remember it being funny.

948
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

949
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 2: The main thing we see from it, of course, is

950
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 2: that scene where it ambushes Luke, who, to be clear,

951
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 2: is you know, not a full blown Jedi yet, but

952
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 2: is a Jedi in training. He has heightened human abilities,

953
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,280
Speaker 2: and this thing still gets the upper hand on him.

954
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,800
Speaker 2: It knocks him out, takes him back to a cave

955
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,879
Speaker 2: and has affixed him to the ceiling. We'll come back

956
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,720
Speaker 2: to how this supposedly works, but he doesn't have long.

957
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,240
Speaker 2: He manages to use the force to get his lightsaber,

958
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 2: free himself and what slice the arm off of the

959
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 2: creature and make his at least temporary escape, and then

960
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 2: luckily Han Solo saves it.

961
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 3: Now, speaking of different versions of the film, am I

962
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 3: correct that some of the great looking Wampa stuff in

963
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 3: the version of the movie that I've seen more recently

964
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 3: is actually like part of the Star Wars. I don't

965
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,359
Speaker 3: know that second round of versions of the film they did,

966
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 3: Like I remember less of the Wampa in the version

967
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 3: I grew up with than the version I have in

968
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 3: my blue right now.

969
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's It's tough, isn't it looking back at

970
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 2: those those revamped versions that came out ahead of the prequels,

971
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 2: because some of the things that they added are kind

972
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 2: of obvious and obnoxious and maybe don't work that well.

973
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 3: Not great cgi, yeah, but others. But this is like

974
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 3: a practical yeah, yeah, practical insertion here. This is probably,

975
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 3: you know, off the top of my head, maybe the

976
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 3: best practical thing they did in those those those remixes,

977
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 3: those revamped versions of the episodes, but any rate in

978
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 3: the version that I most recently saw, I certainly think

979
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:02,919
Speaker 3: it to be a frightening creature. Yeah, it looks great.

980
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 2: So the film definitely positions the the Wampa as an

981
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 2: ambush predator and also does most of the lore. Like

982
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 2: the Star wars Field guy that I've been referring to,

983
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 2: they talk about it as an ambush predator, and they

984
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 2: also discuss how, you know, clearly this is not a

985
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 2: creature that is capable of running down a Tonton in

986
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 2: a dead chase like we see tontons out, you know,

987
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:28,280
Speaker 2: running around, Uh, you know, they're they run their stop

988
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,360
Speaker 2: motion so there their their gait is a little bit funny,

989
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 2: but you get the impression that they can move when

990
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 2: they want to move. And another interesting thing about it

991
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 2: is that, you know, we can compare the tonton to

992
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 2: creatures like an ostridge or a giraffe, and we know

993
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 2: that from those creatures interactions with potential predators that it's

994
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 2: not just running that the that you know some that

995
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 2: these creatures can do. They can also kick, and we

996
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 2: can look at a tontan's basic build because those big

997
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 2: claws and those big muscular leg and you can easily

998
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 2: imagine this thing just kicking the hell out of a

999
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 2: wampa should a wampa get too close. So it makes

1000
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,320
Speaker 2: sense that if a wampa were to actually bring down,

1001
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 2: especially one of these larger tonton species, it would have

1002
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,799
Speaker 2: to really get the drop on them. It would would

1003
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:18,800
Speaker 2: have to depend on some sort of ambush scenario.

1004
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1005
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 2: The other thing, I've looked at other texts that have

1006
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:29,800
Speaker 2: talked about the wampa's tendency to infiltrate cave systems, something

1007
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 2: that I think does factor into those deleted scenes for Empire.

1008
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 2: You know, what are they doing down here where the

1009
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 2: bases are? Well, it's because that's what wampas do. They

1010
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,319
Speaker 2: know that life on howth is in the caves. That's

1011
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,399
Speaker 2: where their prey can be found, and so you can

1012
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 2: delve after them. That makes a lot of sense as well.

1013
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 2: And you know, we do see something like this with

1014
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 2: cave environments in our own world, with predators or scavengers

1015
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,799
Speaker 2: entering certain caves to take advantage of certain high concentrations

1016
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 2: of bats, and you know that might be to actively

1017
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 2: prey on the bats, to actively hunt the bats or

1018
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 2: ambush them in some fashion, like catch them leaving the

1019
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 2: cave at a at a certain you know, choke point,

1020
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 2: or to scavenge what falls from the bats, such as

1021
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 2: you know, I guano, but also potentially dead bats or

1022
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 2: young bats and so forth. But I think a slightly

1023
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:29,360
Speaker 2: you know, more apt comparison might be looking at the

1024
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 2: way certain predators invade ant colonies or beehives. And I

1025
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 2: think that the beehives are a great example. Is what

1026
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 2: the death said moth. Now, I don't think the Wampa

1027
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:43,919
Speaker 2: is probably taking advantage of any scent masking deception strategies here,

1028
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 2: but I can see it thriving in this capacity, you know,

1029
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 2: like you know, going to creep into the caves, find

1030
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 2: those caves where the tontons are bedded down for the

1031
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 2: night or where they have their young, and then that's

1032
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 2: when you're gonna jump and make off with one or

1033
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:03,319
Speaker 2: two of them. Interesting Now in Empire Strikes back, of course, again,

1034
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 2: Luke is frozen feet first to the ceiling in a

1035
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 2: Wampa's ice cave, and within the heat of the moment,

1036
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:13,399
Speaker 2: I don't know that I ever really questioned how does

1037
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 2: this happen? What possibly caused this to occur. Oh I did.

1038
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 3: I thought that was pretty cool. I liked that when

1039
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 3: I was a kid, And you know what, I got

1040
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 3: the answer. I don't know if this is you know,

1041
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 3: lucas approved cannon answer, at least in the old days

1042
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 3: how it used to go. But one answer came from

1043
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 3: the old Super Empire Strikes Back video game for the

1044
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:40,359
Speaker 3: Super Nintendo, in which in the hot stages, you fight

1045
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:42,279
Speaker 3: a lot of wampas and you find out that they

1046
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 3: have freezing breath, so they can breathe on you and

1047
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 3: that freezes you solid for a second like Sub Zero

1048
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 3: and Mortal Kombat, and they can kind of swipe at

1049
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 3: you until you unfreeze and bust out. So what I

1050
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 3: learned from this is that a wampa can go hoof,

1051
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 3: you know, like huff on your feet and then freeze

1052
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 3: them solid into a wall.

1053
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,759
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, well that that that works because I

1054
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 2: had never really really thought about it. But the field guides,

1055
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 2: I believe, makes the case that essentially what the wampa

1056
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 2: would do is pick you up, uh like stick your

1057
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 2: feet in its mouth, I guess, or somehow get it

1058
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 2: saliva on your feet nice and wet, and then like

1059
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 2: stick you up to the ice, and I guess hold

1060
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 2: you as if it's like super glueing you until your

1061
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 2: feet have frozen in place.

1062
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 3: They have to clamp you for a minute, wouldn't they.

1063
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:31,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, unless unless they did have the freezer cure.

1064
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 2: The freezing breath would help in this scenario, maybe make

1065
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 2: it a little less awkward.

1066
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 3: I guess so.

1067
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:41,000
Speaker 2: But if this were, this would also while the wampa

1068
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 2: was holding you up there, the wampa is essentially hugging you,

1069
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 2: so that would also maybe help you survive a little

1070
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 2: bit some of that wampa body heat.

1071
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 3: That's true.

1072
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 2: Now. The authors of the Wildlife of Star Wars a

1073
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 2: field guide, they also present the idea that wampas in

1074
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 2: pale prey on large icicles and or in a day

1075
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 2: to sticking them to the ceiling with their saliva, and

1076
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 2: that this is also in the salivaccount. They mentioned that

1077
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 2: the saliva may be somehow an anesthetic. Indeed, one of

1078
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 2: the books three Wampa illustrations that I've included, this one

1079
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 2: here for you Joe, depicts a mother wampa tending to

1080
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 2: her younglings in a cave where no fewer than four

1081
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 2: tontons are hanging.

1082
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 4: Uh.

1083
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 2: And these are I believe some of them may be

1084
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 2: hanging just from their feet froze into the ceiling, but

1085
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 2: some are pierced through the lower legs by meat hook

1086
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 2: like upward thrusting ice spikes. Yikes, Yeah, so I don't

1087
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 2: I don't know to what extent this is actually described

1088
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 2: in some of the extended you know universe material, but

1089
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:49,200
Speaker 2: pretty grizzly detailed to include here, and of course not

1090
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 2: just grizzly. It brings to mind terrestrial butcher birds, shrike,

1091
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:57,440
Speaker 2: you know cases where you'll have you know, actual birds

1092
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 2: on our on our on our world, not a Star

1093
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 2: Wars universe. They use plant thorns to tear and store

1094
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 2: the bodies of insects and small rodents, as well as

1095
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 2: detoxify certain insects, such as the eastern luber grasshopper. So

1096
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 2: the Star Wars authors don't the Star Wars Fuel Guide

1097
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 2: authors don't really get into this, but it does make

1098
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 2: me wonder, Okay, if they're sometimes used to detoxify meat

1099
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 2: in the case of actual terrestrial birds, what if the

1100
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 2: wampa is dealing with the tontons like could stink to

1101
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 2: some degree by sticking them up there? Like again, tontons

1102
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 2: are famously stinky. What if they are toxic, and essentially

1103
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 2: the wampa has to detoxify the meat before it can eat.

1104
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 3: It, aging them in a way to somehow improve the

1105
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:50,520
Speaker 3: texture or aroma or flavor, kind of like the way

1106
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 3: you know we do in temperature controlled caverns or environments

1107
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 3: we do age meats. Humans do that kind of thing

1108
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 3: all the time, maybe treating their ton toons like a

1109
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:02,080
Speaker 3: parma ham.

1110
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I was looking around and there used to

1111
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:10,480
Speaker 2: be this idea that was presented that squirrels, some squirrels

1112
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 2: might do the same thing with certain toxic mushrooms or

1113
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 2: or even you know, psychedelic mushrooms. I do not think

1114
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 2: that this is a popular interpretation today. I think this

1115
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 2: is something you've found in certain nature writings and even

1116
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 2: some mycological texts from the nineteen sixties. I think mostly

1117
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 2: the way we're we're looking at it now is Okay,

1118
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 2: you know, squirrels are going to cash away some amount

1119
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 2: of food stuffs, and you know, and and also squirrels

1120
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:42,760
Speaker 2: are going to maybe be a little bit more robust

1121
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 2: and can handle things that you know, we can't eat

1122
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 2: because you know, as we've discussed the show before, they

1123
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:51,920
Speaker 2: are tough as nails, so They're probably not trying to

1124
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 2: detoxify anything. But but there, at least at one point

1125
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 2: that was a possible explanation that was presented.

1126
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, when I see the extra tontons hanging

1127
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 3: from the ceiling, or the scene in the movie where

1128
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 3: Luke is hanging there, just my mind immediately goes to

1129
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 3: not a preprocessing or aging thing, but rather just a

1130
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 3: storage like storage of extra food resources.

1131
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that would also make a lot of sense

1132
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 2: that Wampa is a predator. Maybe is going to find

1133
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 2: itself in a scenario where Okay, I can't find enough

1134
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 2: to eat for vast periods of time, but then maybe

1135
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 2: I get lucky and I get to kill a whole

1136
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 2: nest of tontons, and then what do I do. Well,

1137
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 2: I'm gonna drag it all back and I'm gonna store

1138
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 2: it in a place, and then I know where the

1139
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 2: meat is, and I am going to depend on that meat,

1140
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 2: and so will perhaps any you know, wampa young ones

1141
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 2: that need to eat as well. Now, finally, the idea

1142
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:51,600
Speaker 2: of them using ice spikes. This is also pretty fascinating

1143
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:56,760
Speaker 2: because various terrestrial mammals, birds and fish do manipulate ice

1144
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 2: or snow in their environments and belief. We've talked about

1145
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 2: this example before in the show when we've talked about

1146
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 2: polar bears, because it's pointed out by a Gloria Dickie

1147
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 2: in a twenty twenty one Science News article polar Bears

1148
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:10,920
Speaker 2: and the title of that this is one of those

1149
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:12,400
Speaker 2: cases where the title of the article tells you what

1150
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 2: I'm about to tell you. Polar bears sometimes bludgeon walruses

1151
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 2: to death with stones or ice. Yes, polar bears have

1152
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:22,920
Speaker 2: been observed to even throw blocks of ice at seals,

1153
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 2: and indigenous accounts report that polar bears sometimes use blocks

1154
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:29,360
Speaker 2: of stone or ice to bash in the heads of walruses.

1155
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 2: As the article explains, scientists take this possibility very seriously,

1156
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 2: especially given similar behavior observed in the wild and in captivity.

1157
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:44,680
Speaker 3: Interesting, especially because we're always looking for, you know, previously

1158
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:48,560
Speaker 3: undiscovered examples of tool use among animals, and that would

1159
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 3: seem to be a pretty blatant use of a tool,

1160
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:54,600
Speaker 3: right if they're using ice as a weapon or even

1161
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 3: as a projectile. I mean, that seems like a more

1162
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:58,640
Speaker 3: an advanced form of tool use.

1163
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was looking at another article on this. This

1164
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:05,320
Speaker 2: is do wild polar bears use tools when hunting walruses

1165
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:11,200
Speaker 2: by sterling it all. This was published by the Arctic

1166
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:15,560
Speaker 2: Institute of North America, and you know, they point out

1167
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:19,200
Speaker 2: that it does seem to be the case that they're

1168
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 2: you know, they're using ice as a weapon sort of,

1169
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 2: but it's going to be limited to dealing with walruses

1170
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:29,080
Speaker 2: for the most part. And the main reason here would

1171
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 2: seem to be that a walrus is a pretty risky

1172
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 2: and dangerous prey for them to go after. You know,

1173
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 2: it is a big creature, it is difficult to kill,

1174
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:40,880
Speaker 2: and if you attack one, it's a very high probability

1175
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:43,600
Speaker 2: you're going to suffer injury as well. And of course

1176
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:45,880
Speaker 2: that's always the gambit with predators, right is it an

1177
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 2: easy meal or is it a hard meal? And what

1178
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:50,400
Speaker 2: does a hard meal mean? Does that mean you end

1179
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 2: up dying after you partially secure it? So any ice

1180
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 2: weapon usage by polar bears is going to be very limited,

1181
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 2: but still amazing that they seem to do this. This

1182
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 2: seems to be within the tool chest of possibilities for them.

1183
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 2: So that being said, you know, I don't think it's

1184
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 2: that much of a stretch to imagine a wampa swinging

1185
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 2: an oversized ice cicle at a JETI does this happen

1186
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:19,479
Speaker 2: in the video games that you grew up playing, you know, I.

1187
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 3: Don't know if I remember this one. I think maybe

1188
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:24,560
Speaker 3: there are some other things that kick ice at you

1189
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:26,920
Speaker 3: in the in the Hawk levels, but I don't know

1190
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 3: off to revisit now. I'm curious.

1191
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:32,000
Speaker 2: The wampas aren't like throwing big, like video game blocks

1192
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 2: of ice, and you have.

1193
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 3: To remember that. I remember them breathing the ice breath

1194
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 3: and then slashing at you with claws. And then there's

1195
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 3: a big wampa that there's like a giant wamp of

1196
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 3: boss you have to fight in a cave. He's just like, no,

1197
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 3: he's more like he's across the top of the screen

1198
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 3: and he's kind of reaching in at you with big arms.

1199
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 3: Maybe that thing's not even a wampa. I don't remember

1200
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 3: what that is. Listeners right in.

1201
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:58,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, I never played the Empire game in this year's

1202
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 2: I think I played because they did one for each

1203
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 2: of the original pictures, right, I only did this the

1204
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 2: first one. I think the Empire.

1205
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 3: Game was my favorite of the three. Actually, yeah, I

1206
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:12,800
Speaker 3: liked it nice though. One thing I always liked about

1207
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 3: the Return of the Jedi game for Super Nintendo is

1208
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 3: there were level there were levels where you could pick

1209
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 3: which character you wanted to play as, and you couldn't

1210
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 3: do that in the other games though. So, like you know,

1211
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:25,240
Speaker 3: there's a level where you're fighting through the desert to

1212
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 3: go to Jaba's palace, and I think you could play

1213
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:33,240
Speaker 3: either as maybe as Chewbacca or as Leah in her

1214
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:37,000
Speaker 3: bounty hunter outfit, or as maybe as Luke I'm.

1215
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 2: Not sure, okay, but Max Rebo not in the mix.

1216
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:42,120
Speaker 3: No, you could never play as Max Rebo.

1217
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:45,520
Speaker 2: Okay, not yet, but hopefully one day we'll get there.

1218
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 3: I remember those games were hard, really hard. Yeah, difficult platforming.

1219
01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:54,640
Speaker 2: Well in that case, maybe I shouldn't. I was tempted

1220
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 2: to look them up, but I don't know if I

1221
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:58,680
Speaker 2: can handle an old school platform in game these days.

1222
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 3: I don't want to discourage you too much. I mean,

1223
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 3: they're not Battle Toads or Ninja guide in or something.

1224
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:06,440
Speaker 3: I mean they're hard, but they're not like old Anys

1225
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 3: Hard Guard. They're challenge hard.

1226
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 2: Yeah all right, well, listeners right in. We'd love to

1227
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:14,120
Speaker 2: We know we have some Star Wars fans out there,

1228
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 2: and we'd love to hear anything you have to add

1229
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:19,520
Speaker 2: to the conversation about any of this, and uh yeah.

1230
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 2: If everything goes according to plan, the next episode of

1231
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:23,920
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind will be another Star Wars

1232
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 2: episode and we'll get into some additional Star Wars topics,

1233
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 2: so tune in and find out what those are going

1234
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 2: to be. Just a reminder for everyone out there that

1235
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:35,960
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and

1236
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:39,920
Speaker 2: culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, short

1237
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:43,200
Speaker 2: form episodes on Wednesdays and on Fridays. We set aside

1238
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 2: most serious concerns, so just talk about a weird film

1239
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:47,200
Speaker 2: on Weird House Cinema. And since this is Star Wars

1240
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 2: week here on Stuff to Blow your Mind, each of

1241
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:52,600
Speaker 2: these episodes is going to be Star Wars themed one

1242
01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 2: way or another. I think you will. You'll be pleasantly

1243
01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 2: surprised what we're going to talk about on Weird House Cinema.

1244
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

1245
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

1246
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:06,800
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1247
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

1248
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:11,240
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

1249
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

1250
01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:22,680
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

1251
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1252
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.