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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session three sixty eight of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors. Why do friendship

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Speaker 1: exploring all of these questions and so much more in

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Speaker 1: my book, Sisterhood Heels, now available in paperback at your

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Speaker 1: local independent bookstore or at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab

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Speaker 1: a copy for you and your girls, and let's talk

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Speaker 1: about it. While therapists are often revered for our contributions

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Speaker 1: to the mental wellness of others. Our culture can also

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Speaker 1: be guilty of denying us humanity with assumptions that we're

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Speaker 1: always willing to provide therapeutic advice at the drop of

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Speaker 1: a dime, or that we don't feel things too. Today,

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Speaker 1: I've brought the group chat back together to discuss how

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Speaker 1: therapists are showing up in our everyday lives. First, we

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Speaker 1: have doctor Ayana Abrams, a licensed clinical psychologist who works

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Speaker 1: under her solo practice, Ascension Behavioral Health. She's the co

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Speaker 1: founder of Not So Strong, a mental health program curated

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Speaker 1: for black women to strengthen their sense of self and

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Speaker 1: connection to others through the use of vulnerable storytelling. We

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Speaker 1: also have doctor Joy beckw who is a psychologist, resident

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Speaker 1: radio expert, speaker, and college professor. Her passion for bridging

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Speaker 1: the gap between the mind body connection has allowed her

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Speaker 1: to work with executives, entertainers, professional athletes, and entrepreneurs nationwide.

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Speaker 1: Some of the points we discuss are the importance of

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Speaker 1: setting boundaries with friends and family when seeking therapeutic advice,

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Speaker 1: how to ensure we're not allowing our work to bleed

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Speaker 1: into our personal lives and the biggest misconceptions people tend

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Speaker 1: to have about therapists lives. If something resonates with you

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Speaker 1: while enjoying our conversation, please sharing with us on social

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Speaker 1: media using the hashtag TVG in session, or join us

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Speaker 1: over in the sister circle to talk more about the episode.

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Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls

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Speaker 1: dot com. Here's our conversation. Well, hello friends, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me again. We have reconvened, but

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Speaker 1: back in our little zoom boxes, not on stage this time.

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Speaker 1: Kind of said feels good to be good to be

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Speaker 1: always a pleasure, of course, of course, So today we

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Speaker 1: are talking about therapists as humans, so really the personhood

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Speaker 1: of therapists, because I think sometimes people engage with us

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Speaker 1: almost as empathy robots, as opposed to like hold people

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Speaker 1: with our own stuff going on, and I think people

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Speaker 1: are sometimes surprised that go therapists have feelings too. So

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Speaker 1: before we jump into the conversation, though, I don't know

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Speaker 1: that we have actually like fully introduced y'all to the

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Speaker 1: people in terms of how long you've been practicing like

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Speaker 1: you're areas of specialty. So doctor Joy, can you start

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Speaker 1: off and just let us know, like how long you've

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Speaker 1: been practicing in like what it is you actually do

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Speaker 1: as a psychologist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, So I've been practicing since two thousand and fourteen. Well,

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Speaker 3: I've been private practice since twenty fourteen. I was at

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Speaker 3: a hospital before then. My specialty is trauma, but I

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Speaker 3: see a lot of individuals who have depression, anxiety. I

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Speaker 3: work with a lot of what I call like high

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Speaker 3: functioning individuals, so high functioning athletes, entertainers, CEOs, and especially entrepreneurs.

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Speaker 3: But trauma is my specialty. I am a team psychologist

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Speaker 3: for a local professional basketball league, so I do some

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Speaker 3: consult work there, and I'm the co founder off for

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Speaker 3: Atlanta and we specialize in trauma. Do a lot of

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Speaker 3: trauma work, anxiety work, depression work, so just all the

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Speaker 3: things for mental wellness, especially if you are out here

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Speaker 3: like life is life and so really really busy in

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Speaker 3: your respect to space and what about you, Dot Diana.

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Speaker 2: So I have been in practice in Atlanta since twenty twelve,

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Speaker 2: solo practice. The name is Asension Behavioral Health, where I

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Speaker 2: specialize in mood disorders, depressive disorders, anxiety disorders, by polar disorder.

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Speaker 2: I work with a lot of graduate students, medical professionals

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Speaker 2: from medical school and physicians. I work with a lot

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Speaker 2: of entrepreneurs, and I also do an arm of my

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Speaker 2: practice does corporate consultings or corporate wellness navigating kind of

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Speaker 2: the DEI space and corporations more so towards racial equity

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Speaker 2: in the workplace. And you'll see me on podcasts and

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Speaker 2: all the such right talking about various things.

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Speaker 1: Beautiful, beautiful. So I'm curious for both of you, what

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Speaker 1: are some of the challenges that have come up for

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Speaker 1: you being a psychologist kind of like the tension between

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Speaker 1: being a mental health professional but also being like a

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Speaker 1: full human. What are some of the unexpected challenges that

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Speaker 1: have come up for you there?

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Speaker 3: I think one of the things that I would say

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Speaker 3: terms of challenge, it's just I think goes back to

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Speaker 3: what you were saying earlier, doctor Joyl where people don't expect,

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Speaker 3: you know, you to have feelings or to be just

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Speaker 3: as impacted about something.

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Speaker 2: As they are.

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Speaker 3: It's like, well, no, like that hurts, and so I

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Speaker 3: feel the pain as well. And I think also whether

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Speaker 3: it's like having feelings, having empathy, like being impacted, but

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Speaker 3: also I think like having the answers, I think because

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Speaker 3: this is what we do. Like people do think like okay,

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Speaker 3: so what do you think or what's best here? And

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Speaker 3: it's like, well, no, no, no, there are so many

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Speaker 3: factors that influence decision, and so it's like I don't

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Speaker 3: have all the answers. I do have feelings and I

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Speaker 3: feel I get sad all the things as well, like

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Speaker 3: I'm impacted by the world just like you are. So

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Speaker 3: I think that's a challenge of like, girl, I don't

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Speaker 3: have the answer. I'm still processing too.

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Speaker 2: What I would add to that is that I think

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Speaker 2: that people struggle a lot with me, and I think

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Speaker 2: therapists general like having boundaries, right, like not being available

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Speaker 2: for certain things, whether that be emotionally, whether that be advice.

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Speaker 2: I think it shows up in my practice right where

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Speaker 2: I just need to have this availability because someone's in

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Speaker 2: pain and needs to be seen when they want to

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Speaker 2: be seen or need to be seen. So I see

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Speaker 2: that a lot, and definitely in more personal relationships. I

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Speaker 2: do notice this dynamic online as well, though, that when

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Speaker 2: therapists show up and have problems with certain things or

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Speaker 2: feel annoyed by stuff, there's a sense that like you

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Speaker 2: shouldn't have quote unquote the negative feelings you're a therapist,

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Speaker 2: or you shouldn't struggle with things because you're a therapist.

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Speaker 2: And I literally have had people in my personal life say,

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Speaker 2: but you know how to get out of that, you

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Speaker 2: know how to not feel that. So I don't even

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Speaker 2: really understand how you could feel anxious about this or

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Speaker 2: how you could feel upset about this because you can

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Speaker 2: work yourself out of it. It feels really dehumanizing when

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Speaker 2: people do that, and they quite literally don't understand that

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Speaker 2: we cannot work on ourselves in that way. People get

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Speaker 2: very confused when I say I have a therapist. They're

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Speaker 2: just like you, all right, So then they also make

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Speaker 2: this further association as something must be really wrong if

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Speaker 2: I have a therapist, So how could I be a

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Speaker 2: therapist who has a therapist. So depending on the relationship,

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Speaker 2: people go further with that. But it's usually about this

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Speaker 2: lack of allowance to be vulnerable essential or to have

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Speaker 2: vulnerabilities that shows up a lot.

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Speaker 1: And Nade what would you say lead to some of

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Speaker 1: that confusion or a misinterpretation of who a therapist is,

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Speaker 1: that we wouldn't have our own therapists, or that we

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Speaker 1: have all the answers like what do you think contributes

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Speaker 1: to people thinking.

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Speaker 2: That, well, we look at a personal relationships without going

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Speaker 2: too far depending on who was the person right, it

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Speaker 2: serves them right to not have to navigate my feelings.

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Speaker 2: It's beneficial for them for me to either have all

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Speaker 2: the answers or not need this or whatever it is.

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Speaker 2: So I think depending on the person and the relationship,

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Speaker 2: it can show up from that place. I think too,

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Speaker 2: it's people's lack of understanding of vulnerability and not seeing

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Speaker 2: therapists as humans. So they really just don't see that

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Speaker 2: we would also need and deserve the same kind of

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Speaker 2: help and care that other people have. So I'll use

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Speaker 2: you try to give the example of like, well, your

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Speaker 2: medical doctor has a physician. I've literally had somebody say

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Speaker 2: like they shouldn't need one. But for the most part,

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Speaker 2: when I say that, people understand it, like if your

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Speaker 2: medical doctor breaks a leg or does this, like they

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Speaker 2: still get to go to a doctor. Why would it

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Speaker 2: be any different for us? But it seems like, again,

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Speaker 2: because people see us in this very limited way in

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Speaker 2: the room, they view us as omniscient, they view us

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Speaker 2: as all knowing, then it really doesn't click that we

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Speaker 2: don't have the answers to things. So there's this kind

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Speaker 2: of strange way where I think people put therapists on

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Speaker 2: a pedestal as the people who can save a lot

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Speaker 2: of stuff. Well, at the same time, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of people who don't trust therapists. So I think depending

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Speaker 2: on who you're coming across, you'll get either respond to

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Speaker 2: your vulnerability.

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Speaker 1: That's great points And doctor Joy, you mentioned this idea

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Speaker 1: that you have all the advice or people will come

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Speaker 1: to you and say like, well, what do you think?

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Speaker 1: How do you navigate that?

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Speaker 3: So we're talking about like outside of the therapy session,

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Speaker 3: So I have a lot of loose sayings. Sometimes people

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Speaker 3: are like what do you think. I'm like, no, no, I

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Speaker 3: don't think. So that you understand that this is a

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Speaker 3: different type of relationship and I may say something in

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Speaker 3: this context of this relationship that isn't necessarily what I

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Speaker 3: would say in a therapeutic relationship, right because those dynamics

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Speaker 3: are different. But also knowing when I'm not supposed to

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Speaker 3: have any advice or I'm not supposed to have the

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Speaker 3: answers in those.

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Speaker 2: Spaces and just being okay with it.

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Speaker 3: I really don't know or I don't have any thoughts

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Speaker 3: about that, or saying like I think should talk to

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Speaker 3: your therapist. I think really clear boundaries about this is

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Speaker 3: my friends circle, if this is my family. I love

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Speaker 3: being able to turn off the work that I do

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Speaker 3: as much as you can when you can turning it

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Speaker 3: off there to say I don't have the answers or

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Speaker 3: I don't really know what do you think, and being

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Speaker 3: able to give it back to them, trying not to

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Speaker 3: get into this role just because they expect us to

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Speaker 3: have the answers does not mean I have to have

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Speaker 3: the answers, and knowing that I don't have to wear

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Speaker 3: that hat, because once you start having all the answers,

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Speaker 3: then of course they come back to you because you

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Speaker 3: typically have all.

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Speaker 2: Of the answers.

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Speaker 3: So I usually sometimes say I don't have like what

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Speaker 3: do you think? I don't think, or like okay, we're

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Speaker 3: going to ask out to joy about it and I'm like,

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Speaker 3: let's not, let's not so, but I make it in

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Speaker 3: a way where they understand I'm not being funny, but

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Speaker 3: sometimes I don't have the answers and having really healthy

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Speaker 3: about just knowing like uh uh no, you don't want me.

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Speaker 1: In that, and it does feel like a tight line

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Speaker 1: to walk, because I mean in your friendship circles and

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Speaker 1: in your other relationships, people naturally like ask for advice,

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Speaker 1: and I think that that's human, but it does feel

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Speaker 1: like there is a different expectation because of what you do,

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Speaker 1: maybe as a mental health professional, that there is like

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Speaker 1: an added layer of like, okay, a professional opinion as

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Speaker 1: opposed to like just a girlfriend opinion.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and the weight they put on our answers or

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Speaker 3: even if you do have a thought like you know, oh, girl,

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Speaker 3: like whatever you want to say, it's like, no matter

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Speaker 3: what anyone else says, because you are a professional, because this.

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Speaker 2: Is what you do.

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Speaker 3: The weight that they put on your response. And sometimes

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Speaker 3: I say, like, you know, I don't know, but I

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Speaker 3: think you should probably talk, so I'll give just a

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Speaker 3: little bit of something like to guide because you do

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Speaker 3: have some thoughts, but no, like, I also don't want

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Speaker 3: that dynamic where I'm responsible for something or start to

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Speaker 3: wear that hat in my friend relationships, Like I just

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Speaker 3: want to be like joy in these relationships. And I

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Speaker 3: think I also have really good friends who they may

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Speaker 3: what do you think you think that's a problem, Like, girl,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's a problem but they're not really digging

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Speaker 3: deep and actually expecting to have therapeutic conversations because they know,

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Speaker 3: like we are friends for real in real life. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: the weight that they put on our responses because this

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Speaker 3: is what we do professionally is pretty significant.

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Speaker 1: Anything to answer that back day, No, I.

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Speaker 2: Agree with that, and I was gonna add the weight

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Speaker 2: that they put on that and this assumption that we

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Speaker 2: can't wait to help that I want to be able

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Speaker 2: to answer this question or give you advice because I

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Speaker 2: think I know the right answer. Like I will have

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Speaker 2: mostly like family members. If I say they're saying something

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Speaker 2: and I don't jump in, They're just like, are you

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Speaker 2: not going to say anything? What do you think about this?

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, I'm listen. I don't feel any different

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Speaker 2: than such and such does or such and such does,

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Speaker 2: But they kind of assume this like eagerness to help

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Speaker 2: that because we have the skills to help other people,

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Speaker 2: that we want to be using our skills all over

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Speaker 2: the place at breakfast, at brunch, at the family reunion,

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Speaker 2: that we just want to help when we see or

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Speaker 2: hear that they might be a problem, that that's where

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Speaker 2: we want to be spending our time a lot of

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Speaker 2: people don't see this as a profession of ours that

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Speaker 2: we're just supposed to be these bleeding hearts, which I

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Speaker 2: also didn't add before, like something that that surprises me.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't surprise me anymore. But that whole bleeding heart

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Speaker 2: piece is that when any conversations come up around fees

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Speaker 2: or rates, right, there's a different response that I get

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Speaker 2: when money is involved in stuff because people have this

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Speaker 2: association of well, that shouldn't be something that costs that much.

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Speaker 2: That should be something again that I should be able

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Speaker 2: to access because it's about health and because it's about

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Speaker 2: care for people. So you putting a barrier what they

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Speaker 2: see as a barrier to this means that we're doing

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Speaker 2: something that's awry in this field.

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Speaker 3: I think it goes back to what you're saying earlier,

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Speaker 3: doctor A, like they expect us to be all knowing

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Speaker 3: but not necessarily all experiencing, and it's like, well, no,

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Speaker 3: like I also experience those feelings. I also may have

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Speaker 3: some anxiety around the things that I want to be

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Speaker 3: able to do this year and being able to do

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Speaker 3: those things or carry those things out. So it's just

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Speaker 3: making sure that we add the human aspect to it

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Speaker 3: like no, like, I also have to make a living

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Speaker 3: as well, and my goal is to be able to

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Speaker 3: do both, to be able to give you great service,

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Speaker 3: to be able to be here and care for you,

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Speaker 3: but also to be able to afford margin.

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Speaker 2: You wouldn't work for free. Why would you expect us

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Speaker 2: to work for free? You literally would not work for

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Speaker 2: free and or a discounted in them like we are

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Speaker 2: expected to do.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: So I'm curious because we know that so much of

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Speaker 1: the work that we do as therapists is mediated through

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Speaker 1: who we are as persons, right as people. How do

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Speaker 1: you balance or set boundaries around what kinds of clients

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Speaker 1: you are seeing or when a client's stuff kind of

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Speaker 1: activates your stuff, what kinds of things are in place,

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Speaker 1: or how do you think about that as a therapist

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Speaker 1: to kind of both protect yourself and the clients jumping.

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Speaker 2: Into my therapy sessions, Doctor Joey my business because I

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Speaker 2: have a right I had. We know I have a

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Speaker 2: soft spot and I had to have a very hard

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Speaker 2: time saying no to black women who want to be

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Speaker 2: clients in my practice, and I still have a hard

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Speaker 2: time with that now. I have boundary issues around that.

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Speaker 2: So I'm probably seeing too many clients right because of that,

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Speaker 2: So I think again kind of consultation supervision, right, that

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Speaker 2: the things that we've been trained right to make sure

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Speaker 2: that we are doing to support ourselves. But I know

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Speaker 2: that one of my softer spots or kind of vulnerabilities

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Speaker 2: is black women are black people in pain. And I

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Speaker 2: really need to remember the aspects of my burnout and

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Speaker 2: how it shows up and when I'm doing too much.

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Speaker 2: And I've had to really come into that practice and

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Speaker 2: attunement the last five or so years because I wasn't

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Speaker 2: screening right in a certain way in terms of like

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Speaker 2: who I was taking in my practice. I was just

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Speaker 2: so concerned about the systemic barriers and not wanting to

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Speaker 2: be one of those barriers and wanting to make sure

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Speaker 2: that people got good care, but also having to really

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Speaker 2: remind myself that I am human. There's but so many

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Speaker 2: hours in a day that it is safe for me

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Speaker 2: and for clients in terms of how many people I'm

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Speaker 2: seeing and how much time I'm spending with clients that

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Speaker 2: I can do but so much paperwork and still be

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Speaker 2: on top of my business kind of acumen in my

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Speaker 2: practice as well as serving clients well and having to

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Speaker 2: really grieve that I can't do more, that I can't

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Speaker 2: see as many clients as I want to do. And

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Speaker 2: that's been this ongoing practice for me, the grieving, the

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Speaker 2: boundary work, the acceptance of my humanity, I mean, just

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Speaker 2: what that means in terms of my limits. So maybe

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Speaker 2: finding some other ways to have larger impact because I

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Speaker 2: can't take you all in my kind of one to

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Speaker 2: one or one to two practice.

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Speaker 3: In terms of couples, Yeah, that makes sense. I think

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Speaker 3: I did some of the exact same things, doctor A.

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Speaker 3: Just the heaviness that I feel when I feel like, ooh,

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Speaker 3: this person would really be a good fit, or I

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Speaker 3: feel that I could really help this person, but also

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Speaker 3: knowing that I don't have the capacity and being able

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Speaker 3: to sit with that. I think for me, I had

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Speaker 3: to navigate or had to explore what's the story that

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Speaker 3: I'm telling, Like what's driving this need for me to

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Speaker 3: want to see as many people as possible and the

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Speaker 3: effect of that like Okay, so now you're sad and

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Speaker 3: now you're feeling down. Are you afraid? What are you

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Speaker 3: afraid of? And also the narrative that like, hey, there

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Speaker 3: are some other excellent people that can provide this service

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Speaker 3: or it does not have to be mean, Like as

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Speaker 3: much as I would love for it to be me,

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Speaker 3: but it's like, if not me, I have a great

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Speaker 3: nice circle of capable therapists, Like let me send you

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Speaker 3: to this person. I know you'd be in really good hands.

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Speaker 3: But I think it starts off with screening really, really

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Speaker 3: well as much as possible, so you'll know, like, hey,

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Speaker 3: who do I work well with, and trying to be

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Speaker 3: able to find that ideal client that you feel that's

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Speaker 3: a really good match early on, and then definitely the consultation,

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Speaker 3: the supervision, the groups have been very very helpful, and

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Speaker 3: then knowing that it does not have to be me.

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Speaker 3: It does not have to be me. I can also

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Speaker 3: refer them out to somebody, but it is really tough.

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Speaker 2: Because it's like, well, you know, well.

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Speaker 3: I could put them in on Friday at twelve and

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Speaker 3: it's like, okay, so what are you gonna have lunch?

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Speaker 3: But being able to sit in that space like no,

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Speaker 3: you can't. You said you were going to do notes

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Speaker 3: during that time, but really thinking about by you doing that,

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Speaker 3: what are you giving up? So you're adding this person

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Speaker 3: and what are you taking away from yourself, whether it's

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Speaker 3: my time that I set aside to do notes or

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Speaker 3: to basically just have lunch.

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Speaker 2: You know, something that I wish we had more training

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Speaker 2: on in our or at least I know my graduate

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Speaker 2: program didn't do the best at this. I think that

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Speaker 2: a lot of therapists, emerging therapists, and even therapists I

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Speaker 2: guess I'm considered mid career now, really struggled with internalizing

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Speaker 2: the brokenness of the mental health care system, so really

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Speaker 2: internalizing this responsibility that, oh, I know that there are

380
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Speaker 2: barriers so let me not perpetuate the barriers in this.

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Speaker 2: We know the barriers and the stigma associated with black people.

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Speaker 2: So oh my goodness, if a black person has done

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Speaker 2: all the work to do this courageous thing and ask

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Speaker 2: for therapy, I can't turn them away now because I've

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Speaker 2: internalized that they not ever going to try again. Right, So,

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Speaker 2: it was all that stuff that was really really taking

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Speaker 2: over that I still have to keep an eye on,

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Speaker 2: but I've put some distance in between it being my

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Speaker 2: responsibility to like save the mental health care system, right

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Speaker 2: that none of us can do that as one therapist

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Speaker 2: or even like a group practice. But I don't think

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Speaker 2: that that is offered to us I don't think we

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Speaker 2: are taught about the importance of that kind of differentiation,

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Speaker 2: but I know that for a long time, I really

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Speaker 2: took it in as my responsibility to not be the

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Speaker 2: broken system.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and then doctor A also thinking about too though,

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Speaker 3: if we do feel to capacity or if we are

399
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Speaker 3: taking on all of that, what is it due to us?

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Speaker 3: We talked about burnout earlier and just making sure that

401
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Speaker 3: we don't show up like you know, Okay, finally we

402
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,119
Speaker 3: schedule them, we have them in for a session, but

403
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Speaker 3: are you getting the best me? Because we know what

404
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Speaker 3: we're like when we're seeing we know what our sweet

405
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Speaker 3: spot is, we know what it's like when we're really

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Speaker 3: full of energy and ready to see the clients that

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Speaker 3: we see, and knowing that if we're over that limit,

408
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Speaker 3: am I doing them a disservice? Like we talk about

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Speaker 3: doing no harm. It's like, okay, so what point am

410
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Speaker 3: I exhausted? What point am I tired? And the things

411
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Speaker 3: where you know, I love reading and just finding articles

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Speaker 3: and things for clients sometimes outside of session, and it's like, well,

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Speaker 3: if you're so packed, then you're tired. It's like, okay,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to bed instead of doing that stuff. That

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Speaker 3: I normally would do in order to assist a client.

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Speaker 3: So really just taking it back to, yeah, there are

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Speaker 3: these barriers and it's tough, but I want to make

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Speaker 3: sure that when you do see me, if you do

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Speaker 3: see me, that you're having the best experience. I'm giving

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Speaker 3: you my best self too.

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Speaker 1: Such an important point, doctor A. I don't think I

422
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Speaker 1: ever had that conversation in grad school either, And I

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Speaker 1: think that it is only through conversations with y'all and

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Speaker 1: working with my own therapist that I do realize how

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Speaker 1: much wait, I feel to like you said, give people

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Speaker 1: this good experience and we don't want to become a

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Speaker 1: part of the barriers, and like all of these systemic

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Speaker 1: pieces that I think are really really important for us

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Speaker 1: to think about. And I also love that you shared

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Speaker 1: that because I think it also taps into one of

431
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Speaker 1: these things that I think is a misconception about therapist

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Speaker 1: that we are not thinking about our clients post session.

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Speaker 1: So this idea that like therapists are only paid friends

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Speaker 1: kind of thing until once you're gone, we're not thinking

435
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Speaker 1: about you. And I think what you're articulating is not

436
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Speaker 1: that we don't ever turn it off, but that we

437
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,439
Speaker 1: are always I think in a lot of ways, thinking

438
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 1: about how to improve the system, how to do the

439
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,000
Speaker 1: best things for our clients. How do you all keep

440
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,840
Speaker 1: a balance there to not be thinking about that all

441
00:20:57,880 --> 00:20:58,399
Speaker 1: the time.

442
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:00,680
Speaker 3: I think it goes back to what it was saying

443
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 3: earlier too, like it does it penetrates all of your

444
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,000
Speaker 3: little open mind space because we want to do good work.

445
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 3: We want to do work that is expansive. I think

446
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,439
Speaker 3: it goes back for me the supervisions, the consultation and

447
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,240
Speaker 3: having like our friend group, being able to say, okay, friend,

448
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:15,760
Speaker 3: do you have time for that? Okay, friend, how is

449
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,119
Speaker 3: that going to look or where are you going to

450
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 3: put that at?

451
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:19,160
Speaker 2: Having somebody hold me.

452
00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 3: Accountable for these big ideas or these big dreams or oh okay, yep,

453
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 3: and tell me where you're putting that with all of

454
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,160
Speaker 3: your free time. Because we do think, we do care,

455
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 3: and there is so much like we see the difficulties, right,

456
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,679
Speaker 3: we see the systemic problems, and we want to be

457
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 3: the answer. We want to be a part of the

458
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 3: solution and not the problem. But having someone say, Okay,

459
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,320
Speaker 3: what's another idea where it's not all on us, It's

460
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,359
Speaker 3: not all on me to fix it, right, or if

461
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,400
Speaker 3: you do want to do something like a group, it's like, okay,

462
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 3: well you cannot be just you doing this group. Can

463
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,120
Speaker 3: you split it with another therapist? You have the first one,

464
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,639
Speaker 3: they have the second one. So thinking about how you

465
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 3: are able to still do the work but you don't

466
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 3: have to do all of their work yourself, and being

467
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,199
Speaker 3: in spaces to explore other opportunities of still targeting the

468
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 3: problem without taking yourself out in the process.

469
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think what's been really helpful for me to

470
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 2: strike that balance, which still I do practice boundaries around it,

471
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,919
Speaker 2: is using other resources. So I think earlier in my

472
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,400
Speaker 2: career it would be like, oh, the therapy space has

473
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,679
Speaker 2: to be the space that creates all this change. But

474
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,159
Speaker 2: now there's so many more podcasts, there's articles on stuff,

475
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,400
Speaker 2: there's stuff on TV or in the media that's doing

476
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,639
Speaker 2: a more kind of ethical job of showing care and

477
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 2: kind of showing mental health concerns. So I now will

478
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 2: balance out a bit more of those resources with the

479
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 2: hour that we have together. But I'm gonna send you

480
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 2: a podcast episode that talked exactly about what we talked about,

481
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 2: and you can do some learning on your own, right

482
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 2: so that I do not feel all of this pressure

483
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 2: to be the one space that gives you all of this.

484
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 2: So for me, it's been really helpful in terms of

485
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 2: taking in other resources and just having this breath of

486
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,400
Speaker 2: resources just filtering through my brain. When I do think

487
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,879
Speaker 2: about clients outside of session to be able to share

488
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 2: some things with them. What I usually need to practice

489
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 2: boundaries around is because I'm listening to so many podcasts

490
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 2: because I'm reading so many articles, I ain't gonna be

491
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 2: talking to you all time every time I read something,

492
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 2: so I just need to be like, Okay, I can

493
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 2: share this with them in the next session. I don't

494
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 2: have to share this with them in between. But offering

495
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 2: or kind of creating those adjuncts like a book is

496
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 2: also really helpful. So me also being able to lead

497
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 2: them to other resources I think also augments the work.

498
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 2: So I personally feel less pressure to be the space.

499
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 2: And I know that's about me and my ego stuff

500
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 2: as therapist, but it's been helpful to redirect them to

501
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 2: other resources.

502
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 3: And I think in terms of balancing doctor Joyce, so

503
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 3: that my brain is typically thinking about what can I

504
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 3: offer whatever I read that may be helpful.

505
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 2: Oh oh, this is really good.

506
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 3: It helped me to have this diverse friend group where

507
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 3: they will say, oh, this is what we're reading. And

508
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 3: so I don't want to be left at FOMA when

509
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 3: it comes to oh, my friends are reading about this

510
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 3: or they're talking about this show. So it forces me

511
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 3: where I really am reading this book or I'm looking

512
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,159
Speaker 3: for podcasts that may be helpful for someone. It forces me,

513
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 3: like to turn that brain off and remember the other

514
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 3: part of me, this other side of me, that hey,

515
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 3: you actually have friends who go to their own therapists,

516
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 3: the don't need for therapy, they don't really want to

517
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 3: read about this anxious book or whatever they're talking about

518
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 3: another book. It holds me accountable and calls me to

519
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 3: the carpet, like you don't have anything to share, like

520
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 3: you haven't read any book this year, but books and

521
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 3: podcasts that are helpful, and so to do that and

522
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,439
Speaker 3: to read books and listen to podcasts that are helpful

523
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 3: for my work that I do, and to make sure

524
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,880
Speaker 3: I don't forget about this other part. So that's one

525
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 3: of the ways that I turn it off from always thinking.

526
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 3: Because people download from the cloud, I'm like, oh, this

527
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 3: would be really really good for them. Yeah, so I

528
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 3: try to make sure I balance it out with some

529
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,199
Speaker 3: other stuff and having great friends who are just like

530
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 3: or they're sending recipes, they're doing other things to remind

531
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 3: you that there's this other part of you than this

532
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 3: person that's just like this caregiver.

533
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So something I

534
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: know that none of our grad programs really tapped into

535
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 1: because of when we were trained is the way that

536
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 1: our humanity and personhood has been extended because of social

537
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: media platforms. Right, So we are people, which means that

538
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 1: we are also engrossed in this social media landscape, and

539
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 1: so we are using platforms like Instagram, Twitter, TikTok all

540
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: the things as people, but also as mental health professionals.

541
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: So I'd love for you to share, like how you

542
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 1: manage joy using TikTok as like just joy versus doctor

543
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 1: joy on TikTok, Like how do you think through what

544
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: you share, what you like, what you repost, and your

545
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 1: thoughts about like the responsibility that we have as clinicians

546
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: in using mental health platforms.

547
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 3: So I think that's an excellent question, and that's one

548
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 3: of the areas that I struggled with early on. So

549
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 3: I have my ask doctor Joy platform, and it took

550
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 3: me a while to make. So you may see like, oh,

551
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 3: she's not super active on there because I feel a

552
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 3: sense of responsibility for whatever I put on there, because

553
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 3: there's so many pages out there with information about various topics,

554
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,360
Speaker 3: and so I felt a heaviness of whatever you put

555
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 3: on there. It's almost like they're expecting this to be

556
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 3: like really good information. It's your ass start to Joy page,

557
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 3: it's your professional page. So being responsible there. But every

558
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 3: time I go on there, I don't want to like

559
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 3: be in my therapy hat. I want to sometimes look

560
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 3: at things that like TikTok, make me buy it or whatever,

561
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 3: And so for me, I set some boundaries around when

562
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 3: I'm on that page. I had to really turn it

563
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 3: off and turn it down because I'm on there and

564
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 3: all the algorithms for that are just, you know, everything

565
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 3: that moves my heart strings, like all the books, all

566
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 3: the therapy books, all the issues of the world, and

567
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 3: that page was very heavy for me. So I have

568
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 3: to basically decide and when am I going to opt

569
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 3: into that hat in that world because I already know

570
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 3: what's going to feed me, and then creating this other

571
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 3: page where this is more of my whatever else you're

572
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 3: interested in, whether it's recipes, and so really knowing just

573
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 3: remembering that I am human too, and I don't want

574
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 3: to always be in the therapy world and helping world,

575
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 3: and I have feelings and then this other side of me.

576
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 3: So trying to have boundaries around what I put on

577
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 3: the page, knowing that it is a weight and acknowledging

578
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 3: for me that I feel that what you put out there,

579
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 3: people are like, ooh, what does she have to say

580
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 3: about this? Or hey, this is Mental Health Awareness Month?

581
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 3: The pool of you have to make five or six posts, Well,

582
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 3: do you what feels authentic and what feels good to you?

583
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 3: Or if you just want to be on men and

584
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 3: see what your friends are doing, do you need to

585
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 3: get off of that page because those dms are popping

586
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 3: and go to another page. So I had to really

587
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 3: wrestle with what is social media going to look like

588
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 3: for you? And do you feel like you have to

589
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 3: be on all the platforms all the time given all

590
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 3: of the information, and the answer for me there was no.

591
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 3: I didn't have the capacity to do that and show

592
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 3: up the way I want to show up in my

593
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 3: friend circles and in my practice.

594
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 2: I am not as developed in this area as Star

595
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 2: to back with this. I ain't made it there yet.

596
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 2: I'm trying. I ain't made it there. And I've always

597
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 2: been in this tussle with social media. So Facebook came

598
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 2: about when I was in college. For me, it feels

599
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 2: like I did grow up with social media and sharing

600
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 2: and just beginning to post stuff. I was twenty years

601
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 2: old when I was posting stuff on social media, and

602
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,959
Speaker 2: my Instagram page, my first one, like originally started as

603
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 2: my personal page, and then I started posting mental health

604
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: stuff and then transitioned it into my business page. So

605
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: it was always this mix of stuff anyway, it was

606
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 2: always this mix of personal people that were there. I mean,

607
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 2: I think I struck a fine balance because I'd always

608
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 2: say that anything I post, if a client or somebody

609
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 2: was to ask me about it, I'm fine with what

610
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 2: I post. I don't post anything that I would feel

611
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 2: embarrassed or if that feels too vulnerable for me. But

612
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 2: I did realize that, and this was even just in

613
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 2: the past few years, that my lens when I'm in

614
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 2: that business account, when I'm even looking at social media,

615
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: I'm looking at stuff to make my own to post

616
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,719
Speaker 2: to like put it into my own words and post it.

617
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: So even when I believe I was using social media

618
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 2: for leisure, it was still content work for me. It

619
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 2: was like, oh, yeah, yeah, but I would have added this,

620
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 2: so let me turn that into a post next week,

621
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 2: like oh, I would say it like this. I'm like, oh,

622
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 2: that is something that came up. Let me put my

623
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 2: spin on it in this way. And that was the

624
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 2: burnout for me that it wasn't this space of leisure

625
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 2: or like mindless whatever it is that people scroll social

626
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 2: media for. It was always work for me because I'm

627
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: looking at other people's ideas and this new content thing

628
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 2: that came up. Were like, oh, there's this trend to

629
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: pay attention to, and there's this. So when I then

630
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 2: did a personal page a few years ago, that gave

631
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: me a bit of that break. But still I still

632
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: find myself doing stuff on my personal page that's related

633
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 2: to me being a therapist. I'm still interested in the

634
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: same things. It's just me using a different page. But

635
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: who I'm interacting what is different on both pages. But

636
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 2: I did recognize that because I'd gone into more content creation,

637
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 2: all the content I was seeing was still me thinking

638
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 2: about how I could do that and what that looks like.

639
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 2: You know, I like that idea. So I'm saving all

640
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: these things that other people were doing so I can

641
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 2: make some content. And what I ended up doing. I

642
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 2: think at some point, maybe a few years ago, I

643
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: was following thousands of people on my business page, and

644
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: a lot of them were therapists, and I just unfollowed

645
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 2: nearly everyone. So I unfollowed thousand of people a few

646
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 2: years ago, and I would say it was a lot

647
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 2: of therapists because it was just too much. It was

648
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 2: too much of me thinking and constantly working. And also

649
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: in the same thing of like, when you follow a

650
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 2: lot of therapists, you are constantly reevaluating yourself, and like,

651
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 2: this is something I could be doing, not even for

652
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 2: content stuff, but just me everything a therapist says, I'm

653
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 2: thinking about for my personal self. So me on following

654
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 2: a ton of therapists was really good for my mental health.

655
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 2: So I will sometimes recommend, like, don't follow too many

656
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: of us, because we just always have you thinking about

657
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 2: yourself and you need a break from that. I was

658
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: feeling like I was just a constant self improvement project

659
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 2: all the therapists I was following. So now I follow

660
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 2: significantly less. I still follow a lot, but I really

661
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 2: needed to step away from therapists of Instagram just to

662
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: preserve the time that I was spending on social media.

663
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have definitely tried to trick my TikTok algorithm

664
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: into not knowing that I'm a therapist because I'm like,

665
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: I just wanted to see who did a coach Hall

666
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: of this Week or one of the fun Baby video.

667
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: It was like all of those kinds of random things.

668
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: So I try not to like engage very much in

669
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: the therapy world on TikTok because Instagram then quickly learns like, oh,

670
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: she wants to see more of this, right, And I

671
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: do think you bring up a good point of following

672
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: too many kind of personal developments, self help kinds of

673
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: pages then makes you always think there's something wrong that

674
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: you could be working on and doing things differently. Yeah,

675
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: So what suggestions would you all have for maybe like

676
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: newer mental health professionals or people who may be younger

677
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: in their career in terms of like how to ask

678
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: themselves some questions about like managing this and like keeping

679
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: the balance between not only for social media but also

680
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: just generally when you're thinking about preserving yourself as a

681
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: therapist versus your humanity and needing to strike a balance there.

682
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 3: I think what worked best for me was for me

683
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 3: to be mindful of my energy, so like what gave

684
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 3: me energy and then what took away my energy? Just

685
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 3: really being aware of that. It's like going back to you,

686
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 3: doctor AA. It's like I'm on Instagram a whole lot.

687
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 3: You're looking at all of this. Are you leaving that

688
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 3: feeling like, Okay, I'm getting ready to go look at

689
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 3: puppy clothes, make something to eat, or am I now

690
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 3: trying to play with reels for another two hours? I'm

691
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 3: really wanting that space to give me energy or to

692
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 3: help me disconnect, But is it really occupying more space

693
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 3: and doing almost like more damage than is doing good

694
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 3: for me? And I'm using damage really lightly. But am

695
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 3: I coming off of that feeling rejuvenated, feeling refreshed and

696
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 3: feeling like I disconnected? Or did my to do list

697
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 3: get longer? Because now I'm about to go and learn

698
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 3: how to do reels or some type of dance or whatever. Right,

699
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 3: So I was aware of my energy and like what

700
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 3: fed me and then what kind of drained me? And

701
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 3: being okay with that it's like, okay, so you're going

702
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 3: to post more for example, like social media, like for

703
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 3: what because the world says you should because you feel

704
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 3: like it gets you more visibility, and then really understanding,

705
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 3: well you're actually visible, like people are finding you. So

706
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 3: really just exploring like what are you doing, why are

707
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 3: you doing it? And what works best for you and

708
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 3: trying not to be afraid of Hey, this works best

709
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 3: for me. And it may be a season like this

710
00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 3: may be your season where you post a whole lot,

711
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 3: do you post a little bit right or you are

712
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 3: doing a lot of lives and being okay with being

713
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 3: in tune with myself. So I think that was my thing,

714
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 3: like what's my energy? Does that feel good to me?

715
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 3: Or am I doing it because people say we should

716
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 3: be doing this now or this is good? What is

717
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 3: it that you need and what's going to get you there? Right?

718
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 3: If I need to relax more, is this helping the

719
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 3: mission or going against it? Or if I need to

720
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 3: be more visible, what does that look like? So I'm

721
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 3: doing just enough to do that and not too much.

722
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 3: So it was a lot for me, a lot of

723
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 3: self exploration and same thing with what I'm reading and

724
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 3: how much I'm doing outside of therap Sometimes I'll put

725
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 3: together something I'm like, this feels so wonderful. I can't

726
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 3: wait for her to get it or him to get

727
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 3: it or listen to it, like this is exciting, and

728
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 3: doing more of those things that feed my soul and

729
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 3: make me feel as if I'm doing really good work

730
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 3: in the world, like I'm happy there or oh my gosh,

731
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 3: I feel heavier. So it's a lot of like, you know,

732
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 3: not vibes, but energy for me, not our alpha vibes. Yeah.

733
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 2: One thing I recommend is having friends or people who

734
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 2: are not therapists. My goodness, the therapist bubble is real,

735
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 2: and at one point I only talking to therapists, and

736
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 2: I would be aghast when I would talk to somebody

737
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: who's not a therapist, Like people think like this, what

738
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 2: are you doing? Like what do you? What do you?

739
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 2: You can't say that, and like it really threw me.

740
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 2: And I was just like, oh, because I spend all

741
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 2: day talking to clients or I'm talking to other therapists.

742
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 2: Those are my closest people from graduate school, from internship,

743
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: from post doc. Because also a piece of like let

744
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 2: me talk to the people who get it, who get

745
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 2: what my life looks like now, but at the same time,

746
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 2: you get it a little bit too much, and I'm

747
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 2: a bit disconnected from how a lot of other people

748
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 2: think who don't either not necessarily have these skills but

749
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 2: just don't have to think and talk like this all

750
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 2: the time, or don't have to hold all these things

751
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 2: in the same way. So it's been really helpful for

752
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: me to stay connected to people who, you know, I

753
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 2: was friends with before graduate school, people who I might

754
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: have been able to make friends with while I was

755
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 2: in graduate school, people who have made friends with since,

756
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 2: who are able to help me tap into those other

757
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 2: parts of me when sometimes I might be having a

758
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 2: hard time. So staying connected with people who were not

759
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 2: in the field, I think could be really helpful. And

760
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 2: another thing that's been really helpful for me that I've

761
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: only done more recently, like reading like leisure books. For

762
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 2: a while, I was only reading books from other therapists,

763
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 2: self help kind of stuff, because I still wanted to

764
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 2: learn and do all these different things personally and professionally.

765
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 2: But this past few years, I've been reading murder mysteries,

766
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 2: I've been reading romance stuff. I've been reading all these

767
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 2: different kind of thrillers, and I'm just like, oh, this

768
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 2: is fun. I can get through this book in a

769
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 2: few weeks versus taking me three months to get through

770
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 2: right these other books that are so heady, that are

771
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 2: so like every three pages, I got to sit and

772
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 2: reflect and do all this stuff versus being able to

773
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 2: move through fiction books and fiction. I hadn't read fiction

774
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 2: since before grad school. Up until a few years ago,

775
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,280
Speaker 2: it was just always taking in something that I could

776
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 2: learn from, something that I could apply to my clients,

777
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 2: something that could help me in my own therapy. I

778
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 2: was constantly thinking about self improvement, mine or others so being.

779
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 2: But to get into fiction for the purpose of fiction

780
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: and documentaries and stuff like that has been a really

781
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 2: helpful balance for me and also reminds me that there

782
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 2: are other things that exist outside of this field, or

783
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 2: other things that exist outside of working on yourself and

784
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 2: just being right. Like I said, thrillers, romance, stuff like

785
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 2: having different kind of feelings come up, imagination, creativity. I

786
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 2: had lost a lot of that because I was so

787
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 2: in the field, and that's been really helpful for me

788
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: to strike a balance having hobbies and not having a

789
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 2: hobby that you're trying to turn into a side hustle,

790
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 2: but like just a literal hobby, right that you do

791
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,280
Speaker 2: because you do it and do it with other people

792
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 2: even has also been really helpful for me that.

793
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 3: I'd recommend that goes with having that diverse friend group

794
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 3: because it happened to me where my friends were like

795
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 3: have you.

796
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 2: Read this book?

797
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 3: And I was like, no, I haven't read it, and

798
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 3: they're all talking about it, and then the next one

799
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 3: you're like, okay, maybe that's just something that came up

800
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 3: with and they had dinner, and then the next one

801
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 3: is like, oh, have you read this book? And it's

802
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 3: like no, because guess what, it doesn't have to do

803
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 3: with trauma, mother depression or whatever, so have I read it?

804
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,760
Speaker 3: But it holds you accounta before like what are you doing?

805
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 3: I think friends remind you that there's more to you

806
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 3: than like basically you are a therapist, right, and so

807
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 3: there's more to you than just being a therapist. It's like, okay,

808
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 3: so you're not running with us today? No, Like okay,

809
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 3: so you can only say no so many times and

810
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 3: they're just like okay, girl, what are you doing? And

811
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 3: being mindful like okay, you're not really watering all of

812
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 3: these other aspects of you. You have no idea about

813
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 3: the shows they're talking about, the books that they're reading,

814
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 3: and you haven't been to a lunch at dinner.

815
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 2: So just being in.

816
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 3: Tune with is this who I am? And does this

817
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 3: feed like all the parts of me.

818
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 2: I tell you? In twenty thirteen, I was going to

819
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 2: dr on a girl's trip and I took the book

820
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 2: A Man Search for meeting with me and my friends

821
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 2: were like, what are you? And that's not a romantic

822
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 2: that the books to take for me? What I saw

823
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 2: and sometimes that I've now been taking like fiction and

824
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 2: kind of leisure. I saw this as like, finally I

825
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 2: have some downtime to read this book. I'll be on

826
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 2: a i'll be at the pool, I'll be on a beach,

827
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,359
Speaker 2: and I can actually get through this dense book. And

828
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: they were upset with me, like they were like, I

829
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 2: cannot believe that that is what you are choosing to

830
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 2: do on vacation. And for me, vacation wasn't be present

831
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 2: with vacation. Vacation was time to do all the stuff

832
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 2: I haven't been able to do that I can bring

833
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 2: with me on vacation. And that was an abrupt like girl,

834
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 2: What are you doing? What are you doing? They wouldn't

835
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 2: let me read the book. One of them gotten to

836
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 2: my bag one of the first nights and took I

837
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 2: was upset. I'm not saying that I went gracefully, but

838
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 2: they didn't allow me to read. And that actually ended

839
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 2: up being really really helpful for me, because it turned

840
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,959
Speaker 2: into me using downtime as time to fill in time

841
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 2: that I felt that I lost or just didn't have

842
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 2: in my day to day. And that was the antithesis

843
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 2: of what I actually wanted to experience in terms of

844
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: vacation and what I also promote to clients, and that

845
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 2: was I will never forget that. That's what I tried do.

846
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 2: I really tried to do.

847
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: Thank goodness for that intervention.

848
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:09,399
Speaker 3: It's on a school, your whole vacation, anybody else.

849
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 2: I was really gonna go deep and have the sunshine

850
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,240
Speaker 2: to really reflect. It will allow me just roumin space

851
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 2: to do, wasn't it. There wasn't that type of vacation.

852
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 2: That wasn't it, and it wasn't going to allow it.

853
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: So I appreciate y'all more from our conversation after the break,

854
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: But I do think that that is something that therapists

855
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: struggle with like this idea of vacation being an actual

856
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: vacation and not like just an opportunity to catch up

857
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: on paperwork, or like, oh, I finally don't have to

858
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 1: like do all this so I can do all these

859
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: other things. It sounds like your support systems have been

860
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 1: very helpful in forcing that, But what kinds of other

861
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: things have been helpful in you changing your mindset around,

862
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: Like the necessity of vacations where you actually check out.

863
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 3: That's an area that is still being worked on, because

864
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 3: it's exactly that where Okay, I'm off the grid for me,

865
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 3: vacation meant I'm not seeing clients, and so now I

866
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 3: can catch up with all of the notes, I can

867
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 3: read this book I've been wanting to read, and it's

868
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 3: not at leisure book. It's like, oh, this other book

869
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:13,839
Speaker 3: about one of our favorite authors that just came out,

870
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 3: So it's all the stuff that I haven't been able

871
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 3: to do. It really took people saying you better not

872
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 3: touch your phone, or you know what, you're not actually

873
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 3: bringing your computer or you know, we're going somewhere like oh,

874
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,879
Speaker 3: they don't have Wi Fi? First ever won have Wi Fi?

875
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 3: But it takes people on the vacation. I just really

876
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 3: don't want to be that person too where it's like, oh,

877
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 3: where's joy, Like she's going to do some work or

878
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 3: she's going to log into this meeting. So for me,

879
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 3: it was really all by force, and it was really

880
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,760
Speaker 3: my support system. I'm still working on. Oh, you deserve

881
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 3: rest and rest is important. So I am telling myself

882
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 3: all of those things that I'm working on them and

883
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 3: trying to strengthen that muscle because I know it, and

884
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 3: I you know, I tell myself, like, you don't want

885
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 3: to burn out. This is what you actually preach and

886
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 3: if you need some time after your vacation to like

887
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 3: now do this work where you don't have clients, then

888
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 3: to do that. But it has really been by force.

889
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 3: It's been trips where is it really worth it for

890
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 3: you to pay that much your WiFi or everyone's out

891
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 3: you want to be the only one doing notes, like

892
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 3: with all these papers, like look at yourself. So it's

893
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 3: been forrest and some stern conversations.

894
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 2: I agree, like I said, I'm not fully there. I

895
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 2: am the person who has paid for Wi Fi on

896
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 2: the plane before, right in order to still kind of

897
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 2: get something done because again, I've got four hours where

898
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 2: I can't do anything else. Now's the time to do.

899
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 2: So what's been helpful for me is that I will

900
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 2: and I now have a stack of leisure books that

901
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,439
Speaker 2: I do want to get to and they're not self help.

902
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 2: The only nonfiction ones will be like memoirs and stuff,

903
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 2: but no self help or kind of self development. I

904
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 2: will also download shows and episodes onto my computer for

905
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 2: when I'm traveling, so I have leisure stuff to watch

906
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 2: on the plane or when i'm there. Like those are

907
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 2: the things that help me to not go into the

908
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 2: work related stuff as much as I can. And like

909
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 2: I said, usually when I'm traveling, the people who I'm

910
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 2: traveling with are not colleagues and it's not a work trip,

911
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 2: so they are like, what are you doing you shouldn't

912
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 2: be doing, and I'll close your computer. I have not

913
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 2: gone to a point where I do not take my

914
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 2: work computer. I don't I'm not ready. I'm not ready.

915
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 3: I'll tell you what works there, doctor A. So I

916
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 3: almost had a panic attack, but two baby steps. So

917
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 3: on my last vacation, the agreement was to not take

918
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,320
Speaker 3: my computer and to take my iPad. You can still

919
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 3: do a whole lot on the iPad. But guess what,

920
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,240
Speaker 3: I don't know when the last time I used the iPad,

921
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 3: so it would take a lot of learning and trying

922
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 3: to like scroll and the little keyboard, so it made

923
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 3: it more difficult, Like you're really not about to do

924
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 3: a whole bunch of notes on your iPad because I

925
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 3: don't use it regularly. So it's like baby steps. So

926
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 3: I still feel that I can connect to the world

927
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 3: if I need to. I don't have as many apps

928
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,439
Speaker 3: on there, so it's like baby steps, so you don't

929
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 3: totally go cold turkey.

930
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 2: My tablet is my work computer essentially, but I need

931
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 2: like a Kindle.

932
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 3: I need a kaboodle with the baby version look caboodle

933
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 3: like Stething where you know you got all you gotta

934
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 3: play is Tetris pac Man.

935
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 2: You know You're about?

936
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 3: Is what I would need.

937
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 2: And again, because I have my I could do most

938
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 2: things anyway, but I would need that kind of device,

939
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 2: like not having a smartphone getting a flip phone again,

940
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 2: that would really need that that doesn't have all of

941
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 2: the different distractions because it's very easy for me to

942
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 2: go into an email, it's very easy for me to

943
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 2: also be working and you would name something. I think

944
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 2: it's therapists entrepreneurs. It's the entrepreneur part that gives me.

945
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 2: If I worked for probably like an agency, and turned

946
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 2: in all my stuff and I'm done at the end

947
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 2: of my day and I'm actually done, that's different. But

948
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 2: because I am running a business, it's relentless. There's always

949
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 2: something to do, so that I know that that makes

950
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 2: it harder for me. There's always something to look at

951
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 2: and review and a system to pay attention to, and

952
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 2: something to improve and something to edit on the back end.

953
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 2: So I think that also makes it a lot harder

954
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 2: if you are also running a business.

955
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 3: One of the things that does work for me is

956
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 3: instead of giving myself all or nothing, I do well

957
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 3: with goals and like checkbox. It's like, okay, so you

958
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 3: can only do one hour of work today, you can

959
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 3: only do blah blah blah, so you can check your

960
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,919
Speaker 3: email twice. And so I love being able to hold

961
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 3: myself accountable giving myself some It's like, well, you're actually

962
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 3: not going to be the most pleasant person if I

963
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 3: tell you to get off all email the entire day,

964
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 3: so you have twice you want to do it at

965
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 3: breakfast and lunch or you want to spread that thing

966
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 3: out for breakfast and dinner. So really figuring out how

967
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 3: can I take care of that little aspect of me

968
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 3: that is wondering how the business is going and making

969
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,919
Speaker 3: sure that there are no major fires and being able

970
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 3: to be present too. So give me the kaboodle and

971
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:26,760
Speaker 3: give me a little bit of permission.

972
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 1: Let me do that.

973
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 2: I can do that. Boodle starts with a see or okay,

974
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: because I'm listening, I don't know.

975
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 1: What I think that was something to join made up.

976
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 3: That's not it's a kaboodle. It sounds like something that

977
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 3: kids play with, you know, like fancy names doodle.

978
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 2: It's probably not real.

979
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: But there is something that is like my first ibhead

980
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: kind of thing is where he's basically what would.

981
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 2: You give keys a kid's kindle? Right that has all

982
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 2: these controls and all that kind of stuff. I can't

983
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 2: even go on YouTube basically, Yeah, yeah, to say that

984
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 2: I'm thirteen that I can't do nothing on so exactly.

985
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know we can set it up like how

986
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 3: old are you? Thirteen? So therefore it's a lot you

987
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:07,720
Speaker 3: maybe shut that off.

988
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, like you can send time limits and all kinds

989
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: of stuff.

990
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 2: On those kind of things. That's what I do.

991
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 1: So this conversation is a part of our larger celebration

992
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 1: of Minority Mental Health Awareness Month in July, and our

993
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 1: theme this year is holding space for Healers. And so

994
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 1: since you two our mid career past, the early part

995
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:29,919
Speaker 1: of your career, I would love for you to wrap

996
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: us up by sharing something with maybe younger therapists or

997
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:37,720
Speaker 1: newer people to the field about how you have persevered

998
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: and really prevented yourself from maybe experiencing burnout as a professional.

999
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 2: I would say not doing things alone. Ask the questions.

1000
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 2: I did so many things the first five years, even

1001
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 2: though I had supports, I had people who I could ask,

1002
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 2: but I didn't ask questions right. I didn't ask questions

1003
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 2: about tax stuff. I just was figuring stuff out. I

1004
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 2: didn't ask questions about business structure stuff. I didn't ask

1005
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 2: questions about how to set up paperwork and those kinds

1006
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 2: of things. So asking questions often and early to help

1007
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 2: yourself get set up. Because what I have found, and

1008
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 2: I noticed this across a lot of other kind of

1009
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 2: mid career clinicians, is that we are now figuring out

1010
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:18,760
Speaker 2: a lot of steps because now there's all these different resources,

1011
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 2: particularly with social media, and I has all these different

1012
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 2: resources to help you go into private practice. There's more coaches,

1013
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 2: there's allline stuff, there's tax stuff for therapists. There's all

1014
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 2: this stuff that wasn't there and when I was coming

1015
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 2: into the field, that now helps you figure those things out.

1016
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 2: But I think a lot of us in mid career

1017
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 2: are now getting those things together in this way in

1018
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 2: terms of structure, in terms of habits, in terms of patterns,

1019
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 2: in terms of paperwork, all this kind of stuff. So

1020
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 2: the earlier you can do those things and really focus

1021
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 2: on those kind of foundational aspects of your business, you

1022
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 2: get to kind of build and grow in a different

1023
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 2: way with a different kind of foundation that I just

1024
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 2: wished was there. But I also wish that I took

1025
00:46:55,800 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 2: advantage of. I wasn't offering myself the vulnerability to ask

1026
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 2: more questions of colleagues who are already in the field more.

1027
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 2: I think I was just reacting to a lot of stuff.

1028
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 2: I just got to figure out how to get clients,

1029
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: and figure out how to keep getting clients and figure

1030
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 2: out how to do this. I got to learn how

1031
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 2: to accept money, like doing all these things and wasn't

1032
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 2: really focused on the outside of the business. I was

1033
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 2: so much in it. So I think utilizing those resources

1034
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 2: as much as you can. So these Facebook groups, these consultation,

1035
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 2: all those kinds of things that are available, use those

1036
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 2: as early as you can, because they're really going to

1037
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 2: help you solidify stuff so that you can actually tap

1038
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,240
Speaker 2: into creativity and like either other parts of your business,

1039
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 2: but just the other parts of your life because these

1040
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 2: things are taken care of. I love that.

1041
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 3: So I think definitely using your resources, being able to

1042
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 3: ask for help. And I think I'd add two more

1043
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 3: to that. I think not being afraid to pause and

1044
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 3: pivot because I think when we're going and we're doing,

1045
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,760
Speaker 3: we're just going and we're doing, and it's just like, okay,

1046
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 3: we're trying often to not let the bottom fall out

1047
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:55,359
Speaker 3: or what's the next thing that's on the to do list.

1048
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 3: It's knowing that there's enough, we have enough, we have

1049
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 3: enough time, there's enough support, there are enough client there

1050
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 3: is enough to pause for just a second and to

1051
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 3: see if what I'm doing does it serve me, does

1052
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 3: it feel good? Am I enjoying the work that I'm doing,

1053
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 3: or is there a better way for me? To do it,

1054
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 3: or you know, I'm doing these three things, but these

1055
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 3: two really feed my soul. So if I pause for

1056
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 3: a second to self evaluate and be able to evaluate,

1057
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:19,760
Speaker 3: and then if I need to pivot, then I can pivot.

1058
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,280
Speaker 3: I think so not only like asking for help, asking

1059
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 3: for support, pausing and pivoting, but I also think continuously learning,

1060
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 3: just reminding myself I don't know all the things. I

1061
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 3: don't have all the answers. Like you were saying, doctor A,

1062
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 3: there's so many resources that are out there.

1063
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 2: It's like if you.

1064
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 3: Don't know how to do that, then sometimes it comes

1065
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 3: up in our console groups like oh, this is a

1066
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 3: new platform people are using and being okay with Oh

1067
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 3: I don't know that, or how are people doing that,

1068
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 3: what's a new technique for doing that? Or how are

1069
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 3: you doing onboarding or you know, new patients. So being

1070
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,240
Speaker 3: not afraid to just continuously learn you don't have the answers.

1071
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 3: I'm always learning something new, and I'm not afraid to

1072
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 3: pause and pivot and going back to doctor A like

1073
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 3: ask for help. I think it helps us to not

1074
00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 3: be able to bring out I would.

1075
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 2: Also add something that I'm seeing more in emerging therapists,

1076
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:04,760
Speaker 2: I think because of social media of all these different groups,

1077
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 2: that there is this assumption and or pressure to have

1078
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 2: this like six figure practice really really soon out of school,

1079
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 2: and not saying it's it possible, y'all, don't come for me,

1080
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 2: not saying it's not possible, and not saying don't be

1081
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 2: motivated towards it. But I'm seeing a lot more therapists,

1082
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 2: really really early therapist having a lot of pressure to

1083
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 2: fill a practice immediately, to fill a practice, to have

1084
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 2: perfectly niched down, to have two populations that they're really

1085
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 2: really seeking to build their practice, and if it doesn't

1086
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 2: happen in the first like six months or a year,

1087
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 2: really being in a tail spin because they see all

1088
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 2: this stuff online about established practices. And it's so subjective,

1089
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 2: right that I have colleagues who have established practices that

1090
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 2: are seeing thirty five people a week, and I have

1091
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 2: colleagues whose full time is eleven people a week. There's

1092
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 2: so much, I guessay, kind of just subjectivity to that,

1093
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 2: but really being mindful of being able to nuance like

1094
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 2: motivation versus pressure, because there is this story or this

1095
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 2: sense that any of us with full practices did it

1096
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 2: very quickly, and that we're just always getting clients all

1097
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 2: the time, and that every screening converts to a client,

1098
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 2: and every client converts to a long term client and everything. Right,

1099
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 2: So I think there's some type of disservice that's happening

1100
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:25,360
Speaker 2: right in terms of feeding this beast around productivity and

1101
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 2: growth and whatever six figures means to people now that

1102
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 2: that should happen in this unique space in the private

1103
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 2: practice space.

1104
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 3: But that's why that self awareness stuff comes into It's like,

1105
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 3: do I really want to have thirty five people a week?

1106
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 2: Right?

1107
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 3: Is that what it's going to take for me to

1108
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,879
Speaker 3: make the six figures? Like at what cost? Or do

1109
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 3: I do this and do this very well? And so

1110
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 3: I can still get to my six figures, but it

1111
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 3: may take me a little more time and I'm not

1112
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 3: burning out and I am watering this other part of

1113
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 3: me with my other friends and so yeah, it's not

1114
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 3: always doing, but taking some time to really be and

1115
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 3: that's to be self aware.

1116
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: That such beautiful advice. Thank y'all so much for sharing that.

1117
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: I think that that would be really helpful to younger

1118
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 1: clinicians in the field. So I appreciate you sharing that.

1119
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: So remind us all where we can stay connected with you.

1120
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 1: What is your website? I know, doctor Joey, you talked

1121
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 1: about not really being on social media, so any social

1122
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: media handles you want to share are places where people

1123
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: can connect with you.

1124
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm definitely on there. Listen, it's not popping every

1125
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 3: single day, but when it's.

1126
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:25,919
Speaker 1: On there, it's on there.

1127
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 3: But I'm at ask doctor Joy that's a s K

1128
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 3: D R j O Y on all platforms online.

1129
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 1: And what about you, doctor A.

1130
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 2: So my practice can be found at www dot ascension

1131
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 2: behavioral health dot com. That's a s c N SiO

1132
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,479
Speaker 2: N behavioral health dot com. And I can be found

1133
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:48,760
Speaker 2: on Instagram at doctor Ayana A, which is doctor dr

1134
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,720
Speaker 2: underscore A y A n N A underscore A perfect.

1135
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 1: We will be sure to include that in the show

1136
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: notes so that people don't have to look too hard

1137
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 1: to find either of you. Well, thank y'all so much

1138
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 1: for joining me again. Always a pleasure, always, always a pleasure.

1139
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 1: I'm so glad doctor Ayana and doctor Joror were able

1140
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 1: to join me for this conversation. To learn more about

1141
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:13,959
Speaker 1: them and their work, be sure to visit the show

1142
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,839
Speaker 1: notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash session three

1143
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 1: sixty eight, and don't forget to text two of your

1144
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 1: girls right now and tell them to check out the episode.

1145
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit

1146
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory.

1147
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 1: And if you want to continue digging into this topic

1148
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: or just be in community with other sisters, come on

1149
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: over and join us in the sister Circle. It's our

1150
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:40,800
Speaker 1: cozy corn of the Internet, designed just for black women.

1151
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls

1152
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: dot com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis and

1153
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all

1154
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: so much for joining me again this week. I look

1155
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 1: forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.

1156
00:52:59,320 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: Take good care.

1157
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 2: What what what what what