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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey wasn't the stuff to blow your mind?

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas, and

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Speaker 1: today we're talking about your brain on art. We were

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Speaker 1: discussing the way that art Guard Funcle's music transforms the

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Speaker 1: mind um scans of of the brain while listening to

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Speaker 1: some of his classics while listening to say Bright Eyes

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Speaker 1: or even some of his work with Paul Simon. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're not gonna mention Paul Simon. He told us that

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Speaker 1: it's it's in his the agreement that we signed with him.

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Speaker 1: We're not allowed to talk about all Simon or ps

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Speaker 1: as he refers to him, excellent, excellent. So I mean

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Speaker 1: that's kind of limiting. Do you think maybe we should

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Speaker 1: just talk about art? Yeah? Yeah, I think your art. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's open it up a little and let's just talk

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Speaker 1: about art as a whole, as in, uh more specifically

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Speaker 1: visual arts, paintings to certain degree, sculptures. Yeah, yeah, Like

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Speaker 1: it's some I we're standing in front of a piece

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Speaker 1: of art. I mean, this is what we're trying to

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Speaker 1: get to and why we're completely arrested. What is happening

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Speaker 1: in our brains? Why why are we so attracted to

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Speaker 1: some will be arrested if you were trying to touch

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Speaker 1: the art. Yeah, by the way, Yeah, don't try to, like, uh,

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Speaker 1: make a big scene with a friend and then don't

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Speaker 1: expose yourself to it. Yeah, don't don't, Okay, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: no overcoats nakedness underneath, and don't make a big scene

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Speaker 1: with a friend and then try to get them painting

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Speaker 1: off of the wall and run away with it. Doesn't work. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but no, I mean seriously, haven't you ever had a

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Speaker 1: moment where you're standing in front of something and you

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Speaker 1: were just completely floored, You're just smacked. Yeah, specifically, like

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Speaker 1: really the last couple of years, I have two examples

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Speaker 1: of like recent experiences. I love going to art museums,

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Speaker 1: especially like modern art museums. But in the last year

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Speaker 1: or two I got to see that a young museum

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Speaker 1: in San Francisco, and there is a piece there by

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Speaker 1: an artist by the name of Irving Norman, who I've

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Speaker 1: mentioned before on this podcast. And the is this enormous

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Speaker 1: wall sized piece from nineteen sixty six called War and Peace.

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Speaker 1: And I when I there were other pieces in the room.

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Speaker 1: But when I saw that one, it was just one

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Speaker 1: of these where I just stared at it because it's

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Speaker 1: it's enormous, divide into three pieces, uh and uh. Like

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Speaker 1: on either end there these just this dark um sort

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Speaker 1: of metropolis esque visions of of like this nightmare capitalist

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Speaker 1: future that that the artist was was perceiving and fearing

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Speaker 1: back in the day. He was also influenced by VS

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Speaker 1: by the Spanish Civil War, so there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: like the horrors of war and the whole central piece

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Speaker 1: or these two titans, these two enormous pale figures, and

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Speaker 1: they're about to strike these weapons together, like these giant clubs,

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Speaker 1: and the clubs are like hollowed out and filled with

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Speaker 1: all these tiny people, and it's just this amazing, just

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Speaker 1: nightmarck image with all this stuff going on in it,

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Speaker 1: and there's you know, neon and and cities and bones

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Speaker 1: and and war and strife and and all these symbols

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Speaker 1: hidden in it, and it just it just you in.

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Speaker 1: I just remember just standing there and just just standing there,

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Speaker 1: just wanting to continue standing there in front of it.

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Speaker 1: Another another artist that really impressed me in the last year,

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Speaker 1: so it was Richard Sarah h when well, actually, when

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Speaker 1: both of us were in New York for the World

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Speaker 1: Science Festival, UM, I snuck over to along with my wife,

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Speaker 1: snuck over to the New York Museum of Art and UH,

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Speaker 1: and we mainly went over to catch this Alexander McQueen

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Speaker 1: piece they did with the fashion guy Savage Beauty, and

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Speaker 1: that was really cool. But then we we wandered into

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Speaker 1: this section about Richard Sarah and Uh in this amazing retrospective.

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Speaker 1: He does a lot of sculpture, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: his work is just black and white, especially is more

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Speaker 1: painting type work, and it's it'll be just like a circle,

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Speaker 1: like a black circle, enormous on a large white plane.

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Speaker 1: But then the closer you get, you see all this texture,

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Speaker 1: like the circle is is it like comes out at you.

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Speaker 1: It's I mean, it's it's a three D it looks

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Speaker 1: like it's made out of charcoal or earth or or

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Speaker 1: or it's just sort of worn there and it just

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Speaker 1: I had a really nice experiences staring at these various

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Speaker 1: pieces and just being sucked into the into the contrast

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Speaker 1: of it. So how about you, what what have you

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Speaker 1: been into? Art wise? I love modern art, but one

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Speaker 1: of the things that's just stayed with me throughout the years.

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Speaker 1: Is a painting by John Singer Sergeant. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: a huge fan of him. By the way that his

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Speaker 1: his whole body of work I think is really beautiful,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not like, oh man, this guy's the best.

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Speaker 1: But there's a huge painting at the Isabella Stewart Gardner

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Speaker 1: Museum in Boston that I used to just go and

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Speaker 1: stand in front of all the time, and it's called

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Speaker 1: L Hello. It's E L J A L EO, and

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Speaker 1: it's just incredible. It's just it's there's like slightly erotic,

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Speaker 1: and then you know it's by the way it's painted

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Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds, and um, you know this is

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Speaker 1: an American painter, so it's not you know, it's not

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Speaker 1: that racy. But there's a woman who is dancing and

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Speaker 1: she's swaying to the side, and there are men playing

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Speaker 1: the guitars in the background, and it's just very moody

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Speaker 1: and there's a lot of space in the painting, and

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Speaker 1: for some reason, I always feel like I'm going to

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Speaker 1: be sucked in, and so it's very much a mood

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Speaker 1: for me. Um, And every time I look at it again,

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Speaker 1: same thing. I have a different understanding of that painting.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's what's so fascinating about art is

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Speaker 1: each time you go back to a particular piece, you

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Speaker 1: tend to get more from it. And how amazing that

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Speaker 1: someone can create something from their brain like that and

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Speaker 1: give you a new, fresh experience every time you look

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Speaker 1: at it. And that is actually what VS. Ramachandra, neuroscientists

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Speaker 1: who we've talked about quite a bit, says the purpose

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Speaker 1: of art is. He says it's to enhance, transcend, or

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Speaker 1: indeed even distort reality. And he's really big on this

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Speaker 1: because he says that the reason why we're so engaged

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Speaker 1: with something is we're looking at it and it's not reality.

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Speaker 1: It is somehow a caricature of it, but it has

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Speaker 1: distilled the essence of some sort of truth in it.

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Speaker 1: And we're going to talk a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: that today and and try to even see if we

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Speaker 1: can get some science behind the art going on. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's you even hear stories that I've never

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Speaker 1: had this reaction, but you hear stories about people who

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Speaker 1: have had just severe reactions encountering amazing art, like people

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Speaker 1: who have fainted, people who come to tears staring at

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Speaker 1: a piece, and uh, I mean that and that just

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Speaker 1: speaks you know, maybe not everyone has the capacity to

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Speaker 1: be touched like that or that or the right wiring

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Speaker 1: um as we'll discuss. You know, there may be some

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Speaker 1: elements of synesthesia at work there. But you had just

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Speaker 1: the idea that a painting on a wall created by

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Speaker 1: um an artist that has been dead for centuries, can

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Speaker 1: still just evoke this visceral response in the viewer that

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Speaker 1: it can, and also that it can. It can anger us,

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Speaker 1: they can frighten us, they can disturb us. It can

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Speaker 1: it can bring us to tears. It can captivate our minds.

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Speaker 1: Like you know, you go and you see a really

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Speaker 1: awesome piece at a museum, it continues to play a

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Speaker 1: part in your thought patterns for weeks, months, years to come.

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Speaker 1: And it's so subjective, right, And this is why Ramachandran

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Speaker 1: and also Professor samr. Zeki, also a neurs scientists have

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Speaker 1: looked into this to see if there's some sort of

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Speaker 1: unified theory of art that they can scratch at. And

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Speaker 1: of everybody wants to do this, righted theory of humor

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Speaker 1: or the brain or I mean, everybody just wants a

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Speaker 1: tidy explanation. And uh so we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: that quite a bit today, particularly Romantron Dron and some

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Speaker 1: of the thoughts that he has on this. Um doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that it's exactly correct and we can just tie

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Speaker 1: this up and call it a day. No, not at all, because,

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Speaker 1: as we all know, the art is subjective and it's

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Speaker 1: very hard to pin down. But what has happened is

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Speaker 1: that there's a newish field called neuroesthetics that has bubbled up. Um.

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Speaker 1: This is basically a field that's trying to try to

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Speaker 1: use the tools of modern neuroscience, like brain imaging to

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Speaker 1: get at the crux of art. Um and this, uh,

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Speaker 1: the artist is in a sense a neuroscientist. In fact,

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Speaker 1: some mere Zeki that the neurobiologists that I spoke of,

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Speaker 1: has said that the artist is in a sense a

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Speaker 1: neuroscientist exploring the potentials and capacities of the brain. Uh,

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Speaker 1: though with different tools, And I thought that was really interesting.

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Speaker 1: This kept coming up again and again in this research

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Speaker 1: that artists are the original neuroscientists. Yeah, instead of using

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Speaker 1: a scalpel or a or or some sort of scanning mechanism,

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Speaker 1: they're using well, maybe a scalpel or um or a

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Speaker 1: paintbrush or a jar, a giant robotic cloaca. It just

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Speaker 1: it just varies determining on exactly what kind of archer

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Speaker 1: you're really going for. But see, it's interesting you bring

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Speaker 1: up the cloaca because they say that, you know that

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Speaker 1: neuroscience thinks that we can take this end product of art,

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Speaker 1: right and reverse engineer to figure out how the mind works.

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Speaker 1: And in a sense when when it was was the

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Speaker 1: artist of VIM I can't remember his last name, Milloy,

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Speaker 1: I think when he created this cloaca out of this

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Speaker 1: machine was really trying to get at the the process

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Speaker 1: of digestion, the second brain right, right, So a lot

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Speaker 1: of this is trying to work out our humanness. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and a and as we're talking about analyzing the brain again,

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Speaker 1: it searched to to remind everyone that these the very

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Speaker 1: scanning techniques that are used. A lot of it boils

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Speaker 1: down to looking. We're able to look at the brain.

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Speaker 1: We're able to see how blood moves in the brain

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Speaker 1: when areas of the brain are engaged. Just as we're

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Speaker 1: discussed with memory, the way that memory is a complex

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Speaker 1: system that interacts at various points in the brain in

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Speaker 1: different systems of memory. The brain itself is rather complicated,

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Speaker 1: but but we can look at it, we can see

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Speaker 1: what's lighting up and we can and it's it's through

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Speaker 1: that technique we attempt to understand exactly how we're processing

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Speaker 1: things such as stimuli such as art or music and

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Speaker 1: other studies. Well, and that's what's so fascinating about this

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Speaker 1: field of neurasthetics. That's exactly what they're trying to do.

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Speaker 1: They're saying, this is knowable. We can actually take the

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Speaker 1: brain and we can start to map it so that

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Speaker 1: we can see when people feel anguish or when they

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Speaker 1: feel uh, you know, titilated or um, you know, all

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Speaker 1: these different things that are going through someone's mind. They

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Speaker 1: feel like eventually they can tag it in the human

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Speaker 1: brain and start to say, okay, how how did that

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Speaker 1: actual piece of art do this to us? You know,

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Speaker 1: what's what's going on? Um? And this is from Jonah

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Speaker 1: Laire's Psychology Today article about this UM and he's talking

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Speaker 1: specifically about the Mona Lisa smile and saying that this

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Speaker 1: Mona Lisa, which has captivated audiences for hundred spears, everyone's

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Speaker 1: so familiar with this piece of the Mona Lisa, we

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Speaker 1: really forget how captivating it is because it's it's so

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Speaker 1: it's so overproduced in culture that and so I mean,

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Speaker 1: we forget that it's amazing art and it's one of

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Speaker 1: the great masterpieces of of of human artistry, right, and

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Speaker 1: people are you know, there's always the question about whether

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Speaker 1: or not she's smiling or smirking, or she's actually quite miffed, right,

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Speaker 1: And how amazing that you can look at this painting

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Speaker 1: and no one can agree on exactly what her perspective is.

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Speaker 1: I would see it like she's about to smile, like

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Speaker 1: I've like I've told a joke that she's a little shy,

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Speaker 1: says she doesn't want to laugh or give me like

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Speaker 1: a full smile, but I can tell that I've made

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Speaker 1: her chuckle inside. See, I think that she just had

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Speaker 1: of food in her mouth. That's my interpretation. Actually. Margaret Livingston,

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Speaker 1: the peculiar structures of the retina and this is really interesting. Um.

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Speaker 1: This is again from the article from Jena Lair in

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Speaker 1: Psychology Today. It says, the facial expression of the Mona

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Speaker 1: Lisa fluctuates depending on which part of our retina we

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Speaker 1: her eyes, which means our peripheral vision perceives her smile.

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Speaker 1: This part of the retina naturally focuses on the shadows

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Speaker 1: cast by her cheekbones, which served to exaggerate the curvature

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Speaker 1: of her lips. As a result, our peripheral vision concludes

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Speaker 1: that the Mona Lisa is smiling. Livingston demonstrated this by

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Speaker 1: blurring the entire painting with Adobe Photoshop to replicate what

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Speaker 1: we would see if we were relying solely on peripheral vision.

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Speaker 1: The end result is a much happier Mona Lisa that

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Speaker 1: when we focus on her mouth, retina ignores the shadows.

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Speaker 1: The brain blurniness disappears. Instead, we thick safe on the

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Speaker 1: lips of the Mona Lisa, which are virtually expressionless. All

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, she's no longer happy. Excuse me happy.

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Speaker 1: The painting has literally changed before our eyes. H It

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Speaker 1: says this ambiguity is intriguing. Living Ston argues, as we

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Speaker 1: keep staring at the painting to figure out what she's

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Speaker 1: actually feeling, which I think that that she's nailed it.

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Speaker 1: There's that ambiguity, uh, And I think that's what intrigues

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Speaker 1: our minds. And somehow da Vinci had a really great

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Speaker 1: understanding of perspective and how to manipulate this. And it's

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Speaker 1: not just da Vinci. There are many artists who have

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Speaker 1: messed with all sorts of perspective. And again, this is

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Speaker 1: what neuroscientists are so intrigued by. How artists are seeing

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Speaker 1: the lines and the color and distorting and manipulating reality

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Speaker 1: for us. And maybe that there's some sort of insight

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Speaker 1: and how they see and how have they've kind of

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Speaker 1: gotten into the human brain and figured out how our

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Speaker 1: eyes are actually working. So I mean that of course

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Speaker 1: brings up this question about how do we see? Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, vision and perception used to be that we

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Speaker 1: thought that it was just our lens and our eyes

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Speaker 1: taking in an image, flipping it, you know, an optical

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Speaker 1: nerve transmits it to the visual cortex. Boom, We're done.

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Speaker 1: But it turns out it's so much more nuanced than that.

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Speaker 1: What we actually perceive. Yeah, we've we've talked in the

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Speaker 1: past about site and perception and about the the the

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Speaker 1: idea that there's like there's like a little area, like

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Speaker 1: a little pinprick of high detail site and then there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of low detail side. Even though we perceive,

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Speaker 1: we look at something and we think we're seeing it

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Speaker 1: all in high death, but our eyes really scanning it. Right,

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Speaker 1: there's the grainy parts, right, And the grainy parts turn

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Speaker 1: out to be really important in pattern recognition later on,

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Speaker 1: and we'll talk about that a little bit. Uh. In

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Speaker 1: the scientists David hu Will and Torsten Weesel demonstrated that um,

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Speaker 1: instead of responding to pixels, cells in the visual cortex

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Speaker 1: response to straight lines and angles of light, and that

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Speaker 1: the neurons prefer contrast over brightness, straight edges over curves,

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Speaker 1: and that contrast allows to more efficiently pick out object.

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Speaker 1: Puble and Weasel became the first scientist to actually describe

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Speaker 1: what really looks like uh, something before it has actually

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Speaker 1: been perceived, when our mind is still creating our sense

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Speaker 1: of sight, which I thought was really fascinating, Like, again,

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Speaker 1: it's not this black and white, this is the process,

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Speaker 1: this is what's happening, there are all these different things

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Speaker 1: going on. One of my favorite exercises that I may

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Speaker 1: have mentioned this before that underlines just what's going on

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Speaker 1: with our eyes and how there's more going on with

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Speaker 1: our site perception than what meets the eye, and that

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Speaker 1: is that if you go to a mirror and you

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Speaker 1: look at one pupil and then switch your vision to

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Speaker 1: the other people, and you cannot see your eyes move right,

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Speaker 1: you have blind spots. Yeah. Yeah, and again that's such

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Speaker 1: a good example of how we can't necessarily always trust

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Speaker 1: our reality and how so much which is fed to

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Speaker 1: our eyes into our memory is is really just a

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Speaker 1: matter of very selective pieces of things that sometimes have

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Speaker 1: been manipulated for us if we haven't even manipulated for ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Turns out that Dutch artists Pit mandreon and this I'm

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Speaker 1: sure a lot of people are familiar with mandreon Um.

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Speaker 1: This is sort of like a vertical and horizontal grid

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Speaker 1: of paintings that he produced, usually with primary colors. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I'm gonna I'm gonna add when we do a

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Speaker 1: blog post to go along with this, I will make

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Speaker 1: sure that we have outgoing links to some examples of

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Speaker 1: these different artists that we're mentioning. Yeah. Yeah, so that

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Speaker 1: you will have a handy reference of that these guys

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Speaker 1: are and you're not having to try and spell weird names,

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Speaker 1: just the right way in doing Google image searches. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, while driving that kind of thing. And he

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Speaker 1: was trying to get at the heart of like a

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Speaker 1: sort of truth about forms, and he was pretty obsessive

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Speaker 1: about it. This plurality of straight lines in rectangular opposition

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Speaker 1: UM and Professor Zeki has said that geometrical paintings like

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Speaker 1: these are remarkably similar to the geometry of lines sensed

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Speaker 1: by the visual cortex, as if the painter could look

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Speaker 1: inside the process in the brain. Uh. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: when we're talking about this visual cortex and talking about processing,

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Speaker 1: there are really thirty areas of the brain with different

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Speaker 1: aspects of UM processing your vision. So we're talking about depth, vision, movement, perception. Wow.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, that again drives home there's so much going

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Speaker 1: on when we were just looking at something. We're looking

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Speaker 1: at that painting on the wall. It's not just I

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Speaker 1: am looking and then my brain is thinking about what

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Speaker 1: I'm seeing, it's your your thirty different sections are working

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Speaker 1: on this project. Of understanding what is before your eyes

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Speaker 1: exactly exactly. And then now think again about Leonardo da

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Speaker 1: Vinci or any of the other great the great classical painters.

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Speaker 1: Before psychologists and neuroscientists formulated theories of depth cues, these

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Speaker 1: guys and and some women were actually working to create

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Speaker 1: these palets on their on their canvases, to manipulate your eye, again,

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Speaker 1: knowing on some level that if you draw your eye

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Speaker 1: over here, then you start to to really engage the mind.

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Speaker 1: You're giving the mind a bone to chew on to

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Speaker 1: figure out what is the story that's going on here,

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Speaker 1: and that this again is the crux of what uh

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Speaker 1: rum Chendren is trying to get at. Why is some

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Speaker 1: aren't so intriguing, why is this gravi us? Is there

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Speaker 1: is there one unifying thing here and it possibly is

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Speaker 1: that this the ability to manipulate something to the point

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Speaker 1: that your brain is really intrigued by it. Kind of

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Speaker 1: it reminds me of one of the more anequated ways

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Speaker 1: to deal with a vampire in myth and legend, and

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Speaker 1: that's to leave a knot out for it, or some

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Speaker 1: sort of either or not or something that's woven really

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Speaker 1: intricately because in the vampire will become obsessed with it

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Speaker 1: and they'll just stand there trying to untie the knot

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Speaker 1: or just feeling the uh, the weave in the fabric

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Speaker 1: until the sun comes up and burns them a lot.

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Speaker 1: I love that. So if you're about if you if

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Speaker 1: your flesh was about to be pierced, you would just

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Speaker 1: throw a knot like a good sailor tied knot and

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Speaker 1: be like here and there you go, and they would

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Speaker 1: sort of run off like a dog. Yeah, yeah, but

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Speaker 1: it's silly, But but I really love it because it

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Speaker 1: in illuminating something about It illuminates something about humans and

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Speaker 1: trying to come up with some of you know, mythical

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Speaker 1: um explanation of foul Vampuire's work. It really gives a

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Speaker 1: little insight on how we work, because that's the way

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Speaker 1: our brains are. Throw it up, throw it an not,

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Speaker 1: and it's gonna set there fiddling with it. It's true.

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Speaker 1: We love a good distraction. Um in a moment to hear.

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Speaker 1: Right after we take the break, we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about other distractions and what seagull chicks hatching have to

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Speaker 1: do it with art. This podcast is brought to you

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Speaker 1: by Intel, the sponsors of Tomorrow and the Discovery Channel

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Speaker 1: at Intel. We believe curiosity is the spark which drives innovation.

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Speaker 1: Join us at curiosity dot com and explore the answers

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Speaker 1: to life's questions. All right, we're back. Seagull chicks. What

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Speaker 1: do they have to do with art? And what is

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Speaker 1: this thing called peak shift? Peak shift? Okay again, Rama Chundra.

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Speaker 1: He's thinking about art a lot these days. Right, he's

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Speaker 1: a neuroscientists. He's not a big well he is at

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Speaker 1: art lever now. But at the time when he was

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Speaker 1: thinking about this, he had been in India a sabbatical

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Speaker 1: seven or eight years and was realizing that he was

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Speaker 1: responding to the art around him and the art that

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Speaker 1: he had learned in his Western culture and and getting

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Speaker 1: a fuller understanding of it. And he started to think

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Speaker 1: about seagull chicks that hatch and they start to peck

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Speaker 1: at the mother's beak for food. And the mother seagulls beak,

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Speaker 1: by the way, is a long yellow beak with red spot.

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Speaker 1: And it's what researchers found out is that the chicks

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Speaker 1: were specifically pecking at the red spot on the beak

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Speaker 1: that somehow they were hardwired to realize that red spot

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Speaker 1: means food. So Ramchana refers to the research done in

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Speaker 1: which the beak was simulated by a fake beak with

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Speaker 1: red spot. Okay, some no, no mama chick was involved,

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Speaker 1: and they still were pecking at this red spot. So

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Speaker 1: then they thought, well, let's just get even more ridiculous,

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Speaker 1: and let's put a stick with a red dot and

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Speaker 1: and do this. Okay, same thing. They were like, we

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Speaker 1: love this red stick. Just give us some food. And

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Speaker 1: then they just to even abstract it even further. They

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Speaker 1: took the stick and I put three red stripes on it,

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Speaker 1: and the chicks went nuts. So because they're like, whoa,

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Speaker 1: three moms, three meals at once. Perhaps perhaps there was

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Speaker 1: some sort of representation on some level, this abstraction of

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Speaker 1: this idea of food in this form and this symbol

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Speaker 1: that made them go nuts for it. So so they're

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Speaker 1: hardwired to appreciate certain not art, but something in the

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Speaker 1: aesthetic world, some some contrast of colors and shapes, right, yes,

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Speaker 1: colors and and so what what rom Charon is saying,

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Speaker 1: and then this is this is sort of far reaching

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Speaker 1: but interesting, okay, is that abstract artists are tapping into

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Speaker 1: the figural primitives of our perceptual grammar and creating ultra

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Speaker 1: normal stimuli that excites certain visual neurons in our brains

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Speaker 1: as opposed to realistic looking images. And that's the important

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Speaker 1: part here, Um that he's talking about is that this

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Speaker 1: excitation that's happening, Um, that the seagulls are responding again

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Speaker 1: to this abstract symbol, and that we are doing it

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Speaker 1: on some level too. Any points out cubism as an example. Okay, now,

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Speaker 1: before we get into cubism, it seems like a more

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Speaker 1: and maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but could you say that

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Speaker 1: a man um, a heterosexual sexual man looking at a

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Speaker 1: painting of a naked woman, would, in addition to appreciating

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Speaker 1: the the artistic merits of the piece, might be attracted

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Speaker 1: to it just because it's a naked woman and he

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Speaker 1: has programmed on a couple of different levels to either

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Speaker 1: you know it. As an infant, he would want to

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Speaker 1: feed from abreast. As an adult, he would want he

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Speaker 1: has this drive to to mate and breed with naked

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Speaker 1: women in paintings. Well again, I mean I think I'm

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Speaker 1: trying would point to it and say that if you

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Speaker 1: look at it carefully. If this is if this is

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Speaker 1: a piece of art that's let's site vetted as like

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Speaker 1: a great piece of art. Right, Yeah, I'm not just

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Speaker 1: talking about something by Okay, he would say that there

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Speaker 1: is disource distortion involved. And again, if you look at

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Speaker 1: it carefully, probably the woman's waist is really really small, right,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna guess that the breasts are really really full. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking classical art where the ladies tended to be

427
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 1: a little bigger. But even then he and he points

428
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 1: to some really good examples of cholla sculptures that are

429
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,680
Speaker 1: found in Hindu art. Uh, you'll see that there are

430
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 1: are fat roles, and yet they're still essential in waste. Yeah,

431
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,200
Speaker 1: so what he's saying that on some level, these fat

432
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,440
Speaker 1: roles are are communicating to the viewer, Hey, I'm able

433
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 1: to take care of a baby. I I got tons

434
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 1: of fat stores. Um, you know you could. You can

435
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 1: hang out with me and genetically, I'm going to do

436
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 1: your right. Right, I'm gonna give you some good offspring

437
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 1: because I've got the fat to sustain another life for

438
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 1: someone and so forth. And by the way, I've got

439
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 1: these great childbearing hips and I'm just voluptuous um. So

440
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:47,959
Speaker 1: what he's saying is that all of that is being radiating,

441
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 1: radiated to us on an unconscious level. Okay, and I

442
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 1: think it's important to bring that up before you go

443
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 1: into something like cubism, which is sort of like the

444
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,879
Speaker 1: polar opposite of of UM. I don't know, like the

445
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,239
Speaker 1: Pnus on a half shell. Right, you could have two

446
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 1: pieces called venus on Well, of course you're referring to

447
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,640
Speaker 1: the Venus de Milo, but yeah, you could have two

448
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 1: pieces titled like newte on a bicycle, and the cubist

449
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 1: piece would be rather different than the than than the

450
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 1: like the straight up realistic painting, so right, you would

451
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: have different body parts on the bicycle. It could be

452
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 1: it could be actually horrific. Okay, So cubism, Yes, if

453
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,919
Speaker 1: you think about Picasso, then then you're on the right

454
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 1: track here with cubism. Um, this what is uh, you know,

455
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: a painting style that at first glance looks sort of

456
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 1: highly fragmented, but isn't um and of course kind of

457
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: a kaleidoscope kind of thing going on when you look

458
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 1: at it. Yeah, many many different viewpoints if you if

459
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: in you know, obviously you can find the cubed images

460
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 1: um in the painting most of the time. And so

461
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: he talks specifically about Picasso and then he explains that

462
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: in the fusiform gyrus okay, that we're we're we're processing vision.

463
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 1: There are cells that we respond to certain views of

464
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: a face, and then there are so called master face cells. Okay,

465
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 1: might respond to all views of a face, and normally

466
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 1: only one view of the face would be presented at

467
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,479
Speaker 1: a time, But in a cube is painting, the presence

468
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: of multiple views could cause multiple single views or multiple

469
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: single view cells to fire at once, thus hyperactive, activating

470
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 1: the master face cells and exciting the limbic system. Wow,

471
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: it's like art as a drug. That's like cubist stimulant.

472
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: That is, that's manipulating the way that we perceive the

473
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,199
Speaker 1: face of other individuals. Right exactly. It's just like if

474
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: you have you know, we talked about this with sugar

475
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: and you you know, have a nice burst of glucoast

476
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: and the signal is really loud to the reward system,

477
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: as opposed to if you just ate a piece of broccoli, Right,

478
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: you're getting really loud signals in this instance, and you're

479
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 1: hyper stimulating this part of your brain and your limbic system.

480
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: And he says, this is the crux of it. We

481
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: are the seagulls. And he says, in fact, if the

482
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 1: seagulls have their own art gallery, no doubt, they would

483
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 1: have like a million pictures of these sticks with you know,

484
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 1: three red stripes on it, and they would sell for millions.

485
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,719
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, they'd have all these Picasso seagull

486
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 1: artists and in the floor would just be disgusting. Let's

487
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: not forget that, because seagulls are kind of nasty. It's

488
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: true that the art gallery you would want to wear

489
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: galoshes into, uh if you weren't used to it. But

490
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's a pretty intriguing idea. Again,

491
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: is it overreaching? Maybe maybe a little bit. But it's

492
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 1: like a simplified model of how um, a human art

493
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: gallery works, and how human appreciation of art works. Obviously

494
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: we're more we're a more complicated mental model. Yeah, so

495
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: it's gonna but but it's a it's a neat simplification

496
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: of the process. Yeah. He said that it's this way

497
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 1: to escape the tyranny of viewpoint, which I thought, well,

498
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 1: that's such an excellent way to put it because you know,

499
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 1: we're so used to sing things in an our visual

500
00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: world that when we're presented with an abstract or abstraction

501
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: of that, then it is it is sort of getting

502
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: outside of our heads and the way we view things,

503
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: and it's making our minds work. And to that end,

504
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: he talks about a couple of different principles that he

505
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: relies on heavily to make this case. One is called

506
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: grouping UM and he says that, you know, we have

507
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: evolved in a camouflage environment and as a result, and

508
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: we've talked about this too before, with pattern recognition, we

509
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 1: can't help it but feel rewarded when we identifying object

510
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: a pattern instantly. What comes to mind when when you

511
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: mentioned this would be the various paintings and photographs that

512
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: have been created over the years in which an optical

513
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: illusion or a hidden image of a skull is inserted

514
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: into a piece, and of course the skull being like

515
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: this universal image of death. Uh. Probably the most famous

516
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: would be uh Philip Halsman's Dolly portrait, and I believe

517
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 1: it was titled in Voluptuous Moores Niece, you know, the

518
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: one with it's like naked women um and their form

519
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: they're kind of folded and formed into the shape of

520
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: a skull. It was referenced on the think I know it,

521
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: really it was reference on the poster art for Silence

522
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: of the Lambs. And Okay, it's like the picture itself

523
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 1: is Dolly in the foreground and then in the background

524
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: these women that are forming the shape of the skull.

525
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: But there are a lot of other pieces where the

526
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: effect is far more subtle, where it will be like

527
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: two individuals and in the background you sort of see

528
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: a skull forming um and uh, and I believe Dolly

529
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: Dolly actually did this in a number of pieces. There

530
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: are a number of pieces that you see the skull

531
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 1: sort of emerging from the background the more you you

532
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: look at it, and and again in various pieces. It's

533
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: the degree to which it is hidden varies, but your

534
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 1: your brain does sort of like there's this reward center

535
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: that sort of pops up. It's kind of like a

536
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: more more rewarding version of Where's Waldo? You know. And

537
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: I was just thinking about this too. I neglected to

538
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: mention when we're talking about perceiving um objects, patterns, and

539
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: even faces with the cubism. The reason why ram Chan

540
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 1: is really bringing that up is that Picasso tends to

541
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 1: focus so much on faces, and multiple viewpoints of face

542
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 1: is converging like an amalgamation of one face but three

543
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,239
Speaker 1: different views of it. And again that's that's what your

544
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: brain is playing with. That's why those single face cells

545
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: start firing all at once to make one face. Uh

546
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: sort of composition for you are getting so nuts because

547
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,719
Speaker 1: they're used to just seeing one viewpoint. Another example, UM,

548
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 1: would if this would seem to be more abstract, abstract

549
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: pieces where it first doesn't seem like anything, but then

550
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: as your brain begins to assemble the pieces and begins

551
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 1: to make sense of you, you say, we'll see the

552
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 1: say the silhouette of an animal somewhere in the shape

553
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: or something vaguely for me? Would you end up with

554
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,239
Speaker 1: this interpretation of of what he's hidden in the piece? Right?

555
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: Or perceptual problem solving is what he also talks about,

556
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: or the peaka boot principle, and he even says this

557
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: in an erotic art that's um highly abstract is that

558
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: it's that peaka boot principle of well, I'm not quite

559
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: sure what I'm seeing here, and then the reward sister

560
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: system starts to kick him when those patterns are revealed. Okay, yeah,

561
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: so this perceptual problem solving it comes back again to

562
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what is the message of the piece,

563
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: What is going on? If there's a scene taking place

564
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: in the piece, what does it mean. So when I

565
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: look at the work of Irving Norman and I see

566
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: this all this stuff going on, my brain is trying

567
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: to process what's going on in the piece and what

568
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: the what he's trying to say about about the state

569
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: of civilization and culture. Yeah, so, I mean you're talking

570
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: about highly metaphorical work. And Ramachanon also talks about metaphors

571
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: being really important, and he brings up the painting Guernica,

572
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: which is about the Spanish Civil War bombing of the

573
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: city of Guernica, and and it's obviously it's it's not

574
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: a literal representation of it. It's a bull goring a horse.

575
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: There's a light bulb, and of course you see people

576
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: are suffering in the painting. But it's a it's an

577
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: enormous canvas. It's black and white and gray. And what

578
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: it's doing, he says, it is taking unrelated objects and

579
00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: directly comparing it and giving birth to a new idea. So, yes,

580
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: we have these these objects going on, but we don't

581
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: necessarily think, okay, a bowl of horse, you know, being gored.

582
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: This means war that he is successful linked these things

583
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: to us, and this is what's creating I'm sure new

584
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: neural pathways actually in our brain because we are processing

585
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: this new information and making new connections. Uh. And before

586
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: we go any farther, I just want to mention if

587
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:27,719
Speaker 1: you if you're interested and you want to learn more

588
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: about public with Picasso, Salvador Dali, or or any of

589
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: these these famous iconic artists, um, Leonardo da Vinci, Uh,

590
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: go to the House Stuff Works website because we have

591
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: a number of really cool articles on each of these uh,

592
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: these artists, specifically Pablo Picasso. I remember Hanna Believe that

593
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: was written by Jessica Toothman. Yeah, and we actually have

594
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: an article two on music and art why we respond

595
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,479
Speaker 1: to it? That one's by Josh Clark's pretty interesting too.

596
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: But all of the sort of points to again this question,

597
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: are their artistic universals. It's a hard question to answer,

598
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: so the easy answer would seem to be, um, there

599
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: is no universal understanding of art that it's um that

600
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: it varies, just as it varies from person to person, right,

601
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: the modern art that's loved by one person may be

602
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: hated by the by the other. I remember I was

603
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: on this this boat tour on on the Thames and

604
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: in London, and the guide with this like Cottoney, very

605
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: like cottony to our guide and he was pointing out

606
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: different things, and he pointed out the Tate Modern and

607
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: he would who just completely dismissed it. He was like,

608
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, you can go over there if you

609
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: want to. It's just a bunch of a bunch of

610
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: rubbish shot through a pizza books in the garbage the

611
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: other day, and you can put add up on the

612
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: wall and and uh, yeah, well thank you. I don't

613
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: get the bust out of the cockney that often, but

614
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: it was hilarious because this guy was just like, it's rubbish,

615
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: a whole building full of rubbish. The real arts over here,

616
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: and uh And other people would be like, oh, all

617
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: that dreadful old historic garbage. Yeah, don't impressionalist, don't give

618
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: me any of that. Throw me it. Showing me the

619
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: Chloeca machine, show me the show me the the the

620
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: mind blowing job draw thing pieces that you walk into

621
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: the room and you just stand there trying to figure

622
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: out what they were thinking or like, when I was

623
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: in the Tate Modern, why is that painting making a

624
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: farting noise? There was this room full of pieces and

625
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: they were I mean, in the Tate Modern is an

626
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: amazing place and there's a lot to take in. But

627
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: and so there's this one room and had several just

628
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: really amazing pieces. But one of the machines, just one

629
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: of the installations there was making this farting noise over

630
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: and over again, and it was kind of distracting to

631
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: your appreciation to the other pieces. But I guess the

632
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: artist had something specific in mind. Well, and then okay,

633
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: so it makes me think, Okay, we we think we're

634
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: such clever creatures and we make farting paintings. What about

635
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: what about in nature? Uh? Do we create art? Do

636
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: do animals creatures create art? Well? The bower bird, the

637
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: mail bower Bird, is a great example of this. And

638
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: if you've if you spent any time watching some of

639
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: the great BBC Discovery co productions which I'm always talking about,

640
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: and I'm sure everyone's familiar with the very like Life

641
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: Human Planet Um the various Attenborough pieces. You've probably seen

642
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: the bower bird, the mail bower or builds this little

643
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: kind of a love shock um. He uh, it's very intentional.

644
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: It's not just us actually reading this is this is

645
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: not the place he lives. This is a wonderful little artist.

646
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: Like it looks like modern art made from foul materials,

647
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: and I mean that's what it is. He makes this

648
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: lovely little little hovel um with archways, weaves it together.

649
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: He gathers colorful um just bits of everything, like if

650
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: there is human garbage around, he will incorporate that, like

651
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: if you can find some. And that's one of the

652
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: reasons when they're filming these documents, they have to got

653
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere to try and find them

654
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: because they don't want bower birds that are gathering things

655
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: like car keys or or or candy rappers that would

656
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: be modern art, right, but instead, you know, they're ideally

657
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: they're gathering um, little bits of flowers, even little bits

658
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: of like rotting material, just very just various color schemes

659
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: going on exactly. They're grouping and by light, so they'll

660
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: have red berries all in one group and blueberries all

661
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: in one group, and the whole idea, of course, is

662
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: to impress a potential mate and be like, look at

663
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: this bower bar. He's got it going on. He's got

664
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: fantastic artistic ability, fantastic artistic taste. He was able to

665
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: build this thing. He's going to be a great bird

666
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: to mate with for like five seconds or however long.

667
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: It's amazingly fast, all of that, but just five seconds,

668
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: I'll tell you. Um. But yeah, I mean so we

669
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: see this in in nature, and certainly there are people

670
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: who will say that the reason why humans do it

671
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: is because on some level it is transmitting this uh,

672
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: this idea to a potential meet that we're skillful and

673
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: we're intelligent, and we're you know, we already know that

674
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: we're tool users, but we're able to plan and to

675
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 1: create these abstractions or abstractions of our lives. Um, so

676
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 1: you know there's a there's a reason for the reason

677
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 1: for why we do it. It's just a question of, um,

678
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: why is it good and why does it provoke emotion?

679
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 1: So we know it's not just this idea of okay, well,

680
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 1: we're all just seagulls looking for some representation of our

681
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: next meal. Um m r s have actually shown that

682
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: when we look at are the same reasons of the

683
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: brain that are involved in experience emotion are activated when

684
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: shown really esthetically pleasing art. And also there's memory involved too.

685
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 1: It's just not as clear cut as like, hey, this

686
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: is a representation of of what we desire. Yeah, yeah,

687
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: you're gonna have some pieces of art are going to

688
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 1: speak to nostalgia, They're going to speak to uh to

689
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: two memories, and very much to emotion. I mean, you

690
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: can't you can't look at a painting one on one level,

691
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 1: there's painting of a beautiful woman. It's going to evoke

692
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 1: some sort of emotional response in addition to viscal response

693
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,800
Speaker 1: in many viewers. Painting of a baby, same thing painting.

694
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,479
Speaker 1: I mean, just look at any given picture of a cat, right, yeah,

695
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 1: then it's going to it's going to interact with this

696
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 1: on some level. I mean, how can you not, Yeah,

697
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: you know, put that cats. You know you're you're going

698
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: to be like, oh that cat. Okay. Well. This is

699
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 1: from an article by Professor Hanging from Stanford University, and

700
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: he says, what if instead of viewing art as a

701
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 1: dispensable luxury, we could see it as a key ingredient

702
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,240
Speaker 1: in Unlocking the Great Mysteries of Neuroscience. University of California,

703
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: San Francisco, surgeon, art enthusiasts and author Leonard Slaine writes

704
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: that just as combining information from our two eyes enhance

705
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 1: us the third dimension of depth, by quote seeing the

706
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: world through different lenses of art and science, and by

707
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 1: integrating these perspectives, we arrive at a deeper understanding of reality. Well,

708
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: this sounds pretty good. I'll go with that. I mean,

709
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: and again, it's like if you want to study the

710
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: digestive system, you want to feed it something and see

711
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 1: how it moves through and and it keeps coming back

712
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: around with the cloic about it. But but but likewise,

713
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:34,359
Speaker 1: with the brain, you want to give it something to chew,

714
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: and you wanna give it that bone and then and

715
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: then see how it isn't how it is chewing it,

716
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: how it is interacting with the stimuli. And as if

717
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 1: we as we've discussed their few stimuli as powerful as

718
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: and as complex as as art, the question is whether

719
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: or not Ziki and Ramachandra and the others will be

720
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: able to actually pinpoint in the in the brain and

721
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: uh and sort of reveal to us the magic show

722
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: that's going on, and will that dissipate our interest in

723
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 1: art if that happens? Do you think? I don't know.

724
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: We keep coming back around to that, that sort of

725
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 1: question when it comes to neuroscience. Do we end up

726
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: explaining way the magic of something and then does it

727
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: still have an effect on it? I guess my my

728
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: opinion kind of tends to vary depending on where I

729
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 1: am uh mentally and uh and the specific topic. I

730
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 1: tend to find it hard to imagine a space where

731
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: we would explain away the magic of art and we

732
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: would not be able to at least suspend that knowledge

733
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: and appreciate it. Okay, well, just just uh indulge me

734
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: from one moment. What if they were able to do

735
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 1: that to to map these processes in the brain, and

736
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 1: the Blue Brain project also was finished and it was successful,

737
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: and they were able to re engineer the human brain,

738
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,320
Speaker 1: and they were able to then download a version of

739
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 1: your brain right onto a computer, okay, and then they

740
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: could create a Picasso painting system or rather software that

741
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: they could then download into that version and then upload

742
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 1: to your current brain, and then you could paint like Picasso. Well,

743
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: I guess that would be cool. I mean that gets

744
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: into that gets into the whole question two of robotic

745
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: paintings there there there have been a number of projects.

746
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: I wrote a little about this for Curiosity Project. People

747
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: working on computers that can paint, that can create works

748
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: of art. And at what point are we in danger

749
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: of or or in a situation? I don't know if

750
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: it's danger depends on your perspective, whether or not you're

751
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: an artist. But do we reach a point where a

752
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: computer can create a piece of art as compelling as

753
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: human created art? And I don't know, I mean it

754
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: it Some people would say yes, it will definitely, definitely

755
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: get there. Other people say, well, the human uh, creative

756
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: spirit is always going to bring something a little different

757
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 1: there that you can't map, that you can't match that

758
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 1: with a computer. I don't know. We'll see what do

759
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: you guys think? Yeah, and what is your favorite piece

760
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: of art? Would love to know and why? Yeah? Yeah,

761
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: send us a link to it too so we can

762
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: we can look at it. In the meantime, let's let's

763
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 1: get some letters roll and let's get the art off

764
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: the conveyor belt in the love letters on Yeah, I've

765
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: got a couple of two equipments here. Um we heard

766
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: a little from a lot of people about imaginary friends.

767
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 1: We discussed as is one of our sort of Halloween fenlands,

768
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: about creepy awesome world of imaginary friends and about you

769
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 1: know how it's a little weird and how but it's

770
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 1: how it it ultimately is is very much a part

771
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: of how our brain works. Um. So we asked everyone

772
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: to share their imaginary friend experiences and we heard from

773
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: a lot of people. We don't we can't read them all,

774
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: but here are a couple. Uh Daniel writes and says, hey, guys,

775
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: I was listening to your podcast about imaginary friends, and

776
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,359
Speaker 1: I wanted to share my imaginary friend I had when

777
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 1: I was little. I can't remember his name, and it

778
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: is kind of embarrassing, but I had an imaginary cheated

779
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: with bat wings. He could fly super fast and on

780
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: long car rides, I would imagine he would roll really

781
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: fast like Sonic the Hedgehog. I created this imaginary friend

782
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 1: when I was at my grandparents house in the summer

783
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 1: in my room, and in my room I would sweep

784
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: it would appear very dark and scary. He would protect

785
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 1: me from the shadows of the night. Furthermore, I adore

786
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: your podcast. Thank you for all the interesting information. Alright,

787
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 1: I cheated with Flying Wing. I love that. That's That's

788
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: that's one of the best ones me for suit. Um.

789
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: We observed from Zach Zach Wright sin and says high

790
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: stuff to blow the mind people. I just finished listening

791
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 1: to your Imaginary Friends podcast and started to think about

792
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: my own imaginary friends. According to my parents, I had

793
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: an imaginary friend called Jeremy who was a mouse squirrel

794
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: um the Pokemon, which is weird because I've never been

795
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,399
Speaker 1: into Pokemon uh and assorted barn animals. I was also

796
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: surprised by Robert's comment about having Fantasy World's friends uh

797
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,439
Speaker 1: to in an inappropriate eight. Personally, I don't think there's

798
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: an inappropriate age to have Fantasy World at. I'm in

799
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 1: at grade eight, and I still play with spaceships and

800
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: pretend to captain them too far reaches of the galaxy,

801
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: and I'm not the only one of one of a

802
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 1: lot of my friends who play role playing games and

803
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: other such fantasy games. I think it's appropriate as long

804
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: as it is fun. Zack and I totally agree. Um.

805
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I was definitely one of those kids where

806
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 1: like growing up I was I feel like I was

807
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: into action figures a little. It felt like I was

808
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: into them more than I longer than I should have been.

809
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: And a lot of that is you know, when you're

810
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 1: a kid, nothing seems more amazing than growing up and

811
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: putting behind childish things, even though you're really into childish

812
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 1: things and they're awesome. And then when you get older

813
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: you realize that, you hopefully realize that this is completely stupid,

814
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: and you spend the rest of your life, even at least,

815
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 1: reminiscing about the childish things that you wish you had,

816
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 1: or pursuing these old hobbies and interest uh and uh,

817
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 1: like I remember, even when I wasn't I got away

818
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 1: from the action figures, I still have these rich fantasy

819
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: um ideas in these settings. And I would I would

820
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 1: This is kind of weird and maybe embarrassing, but I

821
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: would walk around sort of not really kind of pay

822
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: I would kind of circle the house in the afternoons,

823
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: and and uh, I would run these stories over in

824
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: my head. And I would carry a little red rubber

825
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: band or sometimes it was green, and I would move

826
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: it around in my fingers um which it was kind

827
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 1: of I guess, the tactile thing. But also maybe a

828
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: color thing, and I would the the rubber band would

829
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 1: represent explosions, and I would make explosion noises, uh to,

830
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: and these would represent you know that, because my early

831
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: the early stories that I formed in my head had

832
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: a lot of explosions in them, because they were basically

833
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: all actions yarns about spaceships and robots and and all

834
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: this and and some of them where I think we're

835
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: kind of intricate and uh and I'm rather proud of

836
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: the early me having them. But I spent a lot

837
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 1: of time doing that to sort of walking around in

838
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 1: the yard, and my parents probably were really concerned. I

839
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 1: can just imagine your mom, Look, can't the wind to going?

840
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: He's doing it again? Yeah, yeah, hearing you making a

841
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: lot of bomb realises. But but definitely I I will

842
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: be the first person to encourage everyone out there too,

843
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: and not to you know, set aside your toys just

844
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: because he's some some voice in the world around you

845
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: seems to think that that you should, you know, put

846
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: your fantasy world away. I mean, I always come back

847
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: to the famous CS Lewis quote where he and I'm

848
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: paraphrasing here, but he says, you know, when I when

849
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: I became an adult, I put away childish things, including

850
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: the fear of appearing childish and the desire to be

851
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: very grown up. So you keep those fantasies with you

852
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: by all means. Indeed, and if you want to share

853
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 1: your fantasies with you specifically um, imaginary friends. UM. And

854
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: of course we're always interested in your your your dreams

855
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 1: and uh, and certainly any kind of art you're into.

856
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm I'm always gay to see some cool art,

857
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 1: So feel free of it is uh, as long as

858
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: it is not profane. Uh, feel free to share it

859
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: on Yeah, yeah, as long as it's safe for work

860
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 1: or at least, you know, very classy. Share it on

861
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Speaker 1: the Facebook page for stuff to all your mind. We're

862
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Speaker 1: blow the Mind on that and we're also blow the

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Speaker 1: Mind on Twitter, and you can also send us an

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Speaker 1: email at blow the Mind at how stuff works dot com.

865
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