Speaker 1: Previously on Death and Deceit in Alliance.
Speaker 2: This man was in a house with a dead body
Speaker 2: and was either cleaning up for the killer or was
Speaker 2: the killer.
Speaker 3: And a guy came out with a trash bag. That's
Speaker 3: all I see.
Speaker 2: You just glance why that report wasn't provided to the defense, Like,
Speaker 2: what's up with that?
Speaker 3: Did you find somebody you recognized?
Speaker 4: I did point out somebody.
Speaker 5: Hail says.
Speaker 6: Detectives told him later the picture he pointed out was
Speaker 6: that of an Alliance police officer.
Speaker 2: That is the one key part of this case that
Speaker 2: just never sat right with me. Like the fact that
Speaker 2: it was never turned over to the defense is shocking.
Speaker 7: This is death and Deceit in Alliance, a real time
Speaker 7: investigation into whether David Thorne killed Yvonne Lane.
Speaker 1: I'm Maggie Freeling.
Speaker 7: About a month after the murder of Yvonne Lane, Alliance
Speaker 7: police were stuck. They said that the persons of interest
Speaker 7: had lawyered up. It seems like they're talking about David.
Speaker 7: So the police were frustrated and did something some might
Speaker 7: think is controversial.
Speaker 8: One of the things that we became aware at the
Speaker 8: definition that we did at the police's Tart and beck
Speaker 8: In January was a.
Speaker 9: Tune Chames that turned out.
Speaker 8: To being a discussion between you and Altur Maclow and
Speaker 8: then an unknown female who believed to be a psych
Speaker 8: Do do you recall top of the psychic on the fifth?
Speaker 7: Yes, yeah, a psychic. The detectives turned to a psychic
Speaker 7: in their stalled investigation. This is Detective Samson in a
Speaker 7: two thousand and eight deposition. David's attorney is questioning him
Speaker 7: about two audio tapes that were discovered nearly ten years
Speaker 7: after the murder and had previously not been handed over
Speaker 7: to David's defense. The two tapes are of detective Samson
Speaker 7: and Mucklow speaking to a supposed psychic. They recorded themselves
Speaker 7: for investigation purposes.
Speaker 9: Why did you guys decided to take a step.
Speaker 4: To Bill muchel, I wanted to go up, and I
Speaker 4: said I'd go with him. Was to his idea, Yes,
Speaker 4: and he felt like.
Speaker 3: I think he was being pressured from his wife. Say
Speaker 3: the wife was into that?
Speaker 4: No exactly, Yeah, what do you mean when you say
Speaker 4: his life at the end of that she was into
Speaker 4: the psychic reading this and that, and that's where he
Speaker 4: was getting pressured from. And you should go see it.
Speaker 4: Psychic so licence next quite two years.
Speaker 3: I have identally, I don't know.
Speaker 4: Mike, so Bill said he was wanted to go, or
Speaker 4: may have on call or something, and I'll.
Speaker 3: Go with you.
Speaker 7: About a month after Evon's murder, Detective Samson and Mucklow
Speaker 7: went to Cleveland to the psychic.
Speaker 10: Yeah, be a mad it makes for death by okay.
Speaker 3: You have no idea. I'm a believer. I know the
Speaker 3: full moon. I want to do it, but.
Speaker 7: First I just want to apologize for the poor audio quality.
Speaker 7: I had to copy twenty two year old cassette tapes
Speaker 7: and they didn't hold up well. It also sounds like
Speaker 7: there's birds in the psychic's house. Besides all that, the
Speaker 7: session sounds pretty much like you'd expect, at least at
Speaker 7: the beginning. There's talk about the moon and astrological symbols
Speaker 7: what some might call woo woo stuff, But the psychic
Speaker 7: session does not continue like that at all. In fact,
Speaker 7: within a few minutes it seems like the psychic is
Speaker 7: a detective and she's asking all the right questions.
Speaker 5: So we don't think she didn't follow me, And she didn't.
Speaker 5: She didn't, she just h well, well, form to.
Speaker 7: Which the psychic follows up later with a vision. Apparently
Speaker 7: in her mind, she's picturing Yvonne giving someone money. It
Speaker 7: confuses her.
Speaker 9: I think.
Speaker 7: The psychic is asking why would Yvonne be giving a
Speaker 7: guy money. She didn't have any money, and that leads
Speaker 7: to something shocking from Detective Mucklow.
Speaker 5: Got a tip maclaming the other day. She's supposed to
Speaker 5: be hanging hanging a rut well hanging Marama, the guy
Speaker 5: by the name of Tommy. But we're supposedly selling drugs,
Speaker 5: and supposedly Tommy was giving was supplying her with some
Speaker 5: kind of drug. We didn't find any like cocaine or
Speaker 5: crack cocaine in the house, but we didn't find a
Speaker 5: little bit of marijuana.
Speaker 7: So Mucklow says she's hanging around a drug deal Tommy.
Speaker 7: I'm censoring Tommy's last name, like a lot of the
Speaker 7: people you'll hear in this show. I'm not trying to
Speaker 7: imply that any of these people are the killer of Yvonne,
Speaker 7: so to protect them, I'm leaving their full names out.
Speaker 7: But I do think it's fair to say they at
Speaker 7: least should have been investigated anyway. Tommy was never interviewed
Speaker 7: that we know of. There's no record of him anywhere
Speaker 7: in the files, and he's mentioned dozens of times in
Speaker 7: this recording with the psychic as someone Yvonne was interacting
Speaker 7: with to get drugs, And where did Tommy get his drugs?
Speaker 1: Turns out it's from a cop. Here's mucklow in his deposition.
Speaker 11: Fully, Dave mclahoney was a officer on the police department,
Speaker 11: was a sergeant, made lieutenant and then he resigned here
Speaker 11: about six months ago.
Speaker 5: He must have he must have said that, you know,
Speaker 5: he must have gave us a verbal tip that Tommy
Speaker 5: was providing her with drugs.
Speaker 7: This tip coming from a fellow officer should have made
Speaker 7: it pretty credible to them, and at least they should
Speaker 7: have followed up on it. They even say he's kind
Speaker 7: of like a psycho and had an extensive violent record
Speaker 7: including assault, menacing, and domestic violence, so why didn't they
Speaker 7: look into him? And this line of questioning by the
Speaker 7: psychic leads to even more shocking information and names that
Speaker 7: were never looked into that we know of.
Speaker 3: Love Marijana.
Speaker 5: You know, he talked to me other night and now
Speaker 5: I just asked him and he said he got real nervous,
Speaker 5: and you know, I don't know that cha correct thing.
Speaker 3: You brought that up?
Speaker 9: And he steps through the stroke.
Speaker 5: He's amusing myself in shadow or cool. I mean, you
Speaker 5: know if he comes and talking. When I brought up
Speaker 5: on von Lansain, I don't know nothing about it.
Speaker 12: I have not.
Speaker 5: He was just like you know, pacing and trolling around
Speaker 5: the circle. I hard to say. I I really don't
Speaker 5: know the kid that well. He's a barfly, hang out
Speaker 5: in all of our local bars. He's he's only twenty.
Speaker 10: Four five, yeah, I and gentlemen that in that on
Speaker 10: the bar over there that we've got, uh another position, Mike, Kelly,
Speaker 10: Frank Kellen can hang out and high. We got some
Speaker 10: boris you used to dance at Kelly's.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Yes, thank you.
Speaker 9: Psychic.
Speaker 7: The tape is hard to understand, but what we can
Speaker 7: glean is that now the suspect pool is even larger.
Speaker 7: Yvonne was hanging out with some shady characters and she
Speaker 7: was allegedly an exotic dancer. When exactly she was is
Speaker 7: unknown because again there's no record of this in the
Speaker 7: police investigated file. So the psychic is suspicious and she
Speaker 7: starts pushing harder. She didn't watch ye Of course, the
Speaker 7: psychic seems little incensed at the police's blockheadedness.
Speaker 9: You're telling me there's only been for the money back.
Speaker 5: She was very promiscuous though, According.
Speaker 7: To this conversation with the psychic, Yvonne may be an
Speaker 7: exotic dnswer and if the psychic suspicions are right, maybe
Speaker 7: selling sex for money too. This could certainly widen the
Speaker 7: pool of suspects. Yet there's no record of any investigation
Speaker 7: into that part of her life, even though the police
Speaker 7: say they're aware of it. No record, not once in
Speaker 7: any documents. And it gets weirder. So the question is,
Speaker 7: if true, who was soliciting Yvonne for sex? Well, the
Speaker 7: psychic finds that out too.
Speaker 9: And she may not be watching right right.
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, she was possibly seeing a police author.
Speaker 9: I believe that.
Speaker 5: And supposedly the youngest child, maybe this policeman's son, trente
Speaker 5: ye well annoy.
Speaker 7: Okay, dating a married guy with kids. Multiple sources have
Speaker 7: said a cop maybe the father of Yvonne's youngest child, Trenton,
Speaker 7: a married cop whose name we're going to beep because
Speaker 7: no charges were ever filed.
Speaker 5: Supposedly he took Benny over there through this policeman to
Speaker 5: watch and stay there for two weeks.
Speaker 7: And the detectives say they confronted the officer and he
Speaker 7: wasn't me.
Speaker 9: It wasn't me. I don't know, I don't know anything
Speaker 9: about it.
Speaker 5: I've ever, I don't know, and I didn't didn't have that,
Speaker 5: you know.
Speaker 1: And then they bring up another cop.
Speaker 5: He's kind of a flirt, he likes trying to a conquest.
Speaker 1: Yes, a great question.
Speaker 7: The psychic asks, how did she get in with so
Speaker 7: many cops?
Speaker 9: How about the fun?
Speaker 5: Well, supposedly when we we've asked him about it and
Speaker 5: denied it at first, but then he said, yeah, we
Speaker 5: I talked to her and she said she didn't want
Speaker 5: to see me because.
Speaker 7: And then the detectives bring up yet another officer. They
Speaker 7: bring up Quentin Artists, who, if you remember, was the
Speaker 7: cop harassing Yvonne. According to her mother. The cops told
Speaker 7: the psychic that Artists tried to solicit Yvonne for sex.
Speaker 10: I find out more about what he knew. I don't
Speaker 10: think he would go have her killed. But they think
Speaker 10: he knows more about her background than you guys think.
Speaker 10: I think that you think thinks are small potato than
Speaker 10: it's not bigger predatus than what you're thinking.
Speaker 9: This girl really is get that. So they felt.
Speaker 3: Agree with you.
Speaker 10: Bigger potatoes. I just thinking, you guys need that take
Speaker 10: up your grief. That yeah, an athlog with the past.
Speaker 7: So yeah, I've been thinking the same thing. She's had
Speaker 7: a lot to do with the cops. But it's in
Speaker 7: contradiction to the Yvonne. Her family knows.
Speaker 9: What the story we're getting from both sides of her family.
Speaker 3: She didn't go anywhere.
Speaker 5: She did at home like students.
Speaker 1: But the psychic says, they're lying to you the most.
Speaker 13: And she must sham. But she likes somebody's house. She
Speaker 13: I don't like a kid, joli. It was always fast right.
Speaker 13: They all came to the door and made out there
Speaker 13: the many they backed to the bar.
Speaker 9: She didn't know it.
Speaker 10: Plead for us, what are you telling me? Everytime that
Speaker 10: comes to my door? Doesn't balance?
Speaker 7: That was tough to hear in parts, but the gist
Speaker 7: is that the psychic is incredulous that Yvonne had so
Speaker 7: much contact with multiple Alliance Police officers when they were
Speaker 7: all duty. She said, something doesn't sound right here. She said,
Speaker 7: you guys need a new police force, and she did
Speaker 7: not let it go.
Speaker 10: I want to know why she needs so many cans?
Speaker 9: Why did she miss?
Speaker 10: I want to know, what's the connection that so many
Speaker 10: facts are in your life? Why would guys that are
Speaker 10: married with kids be picking her up? What's the connection?
Speaker 10: And listen a whole proof to the plaza? Why did
Speaker 10: she have so many cups? I want to know why.
Speaker 10: I'm curious? Why is you know so many caps? You
Speaker 10: never asked that that I wondered about it? Why you
Speaker 10: just to see nothing?
Speaker 3: Is there?
Speaker 9: Somewhere's going at because of what others?
Speaker 10: Yeah, but you running around in circles when they question
Speaker 10: knew why here is a girl who said nothing knows
Speaker 10: so many?
Speaker 9: Please? Why would she do that? Why? Because she screwed
Speaker 9: him up? But why did she scrom her? Were introduced
Speaker 9: her childis Lisa? Now would be he didn't ever question that?
Speaker 9: Why would a girl knows so many? Please me?
Speaker 3: Now we will?
Speaker 7: Of course we know they didn't. At this point, I
Speaker 7: was so overwhelmed with what I was hearing from detectives
Speaker 7: Mucklow and Sampson about their own colleagues, that I decided
Speaker 7: to call an expert, you know, in.
Speaker 3: Terms of the police force.
Speaker 6: My god, I had more than eight or nine names
Speaker 6: of officers who were potential sexual partners.
Speaker 7: If you recognize this voice, it's Dwayne Pullman, local TV
Speaker 7: anchor and investigative reporter you've heard earlier. Dwayne investigated David's
Speaker 7: case for years, and Dwayne also found that what Mucklow
Speaker 7: and Samson were telling the psychic about officers from Alliance
Speaker 7: being involved with Yvonne was pretty widely known.
Speaker 6: Some police officers were involved with her, either sexually or
Speaker 6: in the drug thing, or both. It's probable based on
Speaker 6: the you know the fact that at that time, it's
Speaker 6: not just speculation the police were. The officers were involved
Speaker 6: in the farious activity and criminal activity.
Speaker 7: Now, remember earlier in the tapes, Mucklow and Samson told
Speaker 7: the psychic that they found marijuana in Yvonne's house. Well,
Speaker 7: there's no record of any marijuana in evidence from Yvonn's home,
Speaker 7: so either that wasn't true or someone pocketed the marijuana.
Speaker 7: If you remember from last episode, the Alliance police were
Speaker 7: stealing drugs and money from the evidence room, So stealing
Speaker 7: drugs from someone's home doesn't seem like a stretch. But
Speaker 7: why would they do that, Well, maybe to sell, or
Speaker 7: maybe it was to cover up some kind of connection
Speaker 7: between the Alliance police and drug dealers, a connection that
Speaker 7: went through yvont If you believe the police were involved,
Speaker 7: well maybe they didn't actually kill yvon but they covered
Speaker 7: it up to save their own asses so there'd be
Speaker 7: no trail that led to them. And Dwayne also thinks
Speaker 7: this is possible.
Speaker 3: My suspicion was always that there were so many.
Speaker 6: Illegal and troubling connections between police and the criminal element
Speaker 6: that it almost felt like, let's clean it up kind
Speaker 6: of thing, no matter who did it, let's clean this
Speaker 6: up so none of us get drawn in.
Speaker 1: He means clean up the scene of the crime, and
Speaker 1: this makes total sense to me. The crime scene photos
Speaker 1: show bleach and gloves on the counter, like someone was
Speaker 1: cleaning up. And maybe the cover up wasn't for the drugs.
Speaker 1: Maybe it was to cover up that half of the
Speaker 1: force was sleeping with her. In fact, Mucklow and Samson
Speaker 1: actually speculate about this themselves. They think that maybe this
Speaker 1: drug dealer is looking to have something on the cops
Speaker 1: through Yvonne.
Speaker 5: Because this drug guy was putting her up to it,
Speaker 5: so if he gets caught, he can block me out
Speaker 5: of the cops for protection.
Speaker 3: Came on the heels of corruption, and my only thought is.
Speaker 6: That, given what we know about Yvonne is you know,
Speaker 6: I'm pretty sure people didn't want a lot of that
Speaker 6: stuff flying out.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, particularly the officers.
Speaker 7: Yeah right, maybe that's why they didn't look into leads
Speaker 7: that led them to drug dealers. The detectives knew any
Speaker 7: investigation into that side of her life, drugs or sex work,
Speaker 7: could lead back to them.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I found Alliance to be a really difficult and troubling
Speaker 6: place to try to get to truth on any subject.
Speaker 14: I can't get to facts on anything, and that actually
Speaker 14: it was a pointer to me over the years became
Speaker 14: a really clear thing. Is well, of course I can't
Speaker 14: because the police controlled the narrative and they were dealing
Speaker 14: with predominantly disadvantaged and impoverished individuals. So you know, that
Speaker 14: kind of thing was just a swirl of smeary mess.
Speaker 14: The case is so troubling because any number of people
Speaker 14: could have been a suspect in this case.
Speaker 6: Everyone in this town seems to have some kind of
Speaker 6: secret or interest in this victim, whether it be drugs,
Speaker 6: sex or both. I mean, look, who's the suspect? Everybody?
Speaker 6: So why'd you land on these two.
Speaker 1: That's the question, why land on David and Joe.
Speaker 3: The avenues or possibilities are endless on who it could
Speaker 3: have been.
Speaker 7: What if it's because David was the furthest away from
Speaker 7: the drug and sex scene, no investigation into him would
Speaker 7: lead back to the police in any way.
Speaker 6: Can I say one percent that David Thorne is innocent? No,
Speaker 6: it's because I don't have enough information to absolutely say
Speaker 6: one thing or the other. But what I do know
Speaker 6: is with absolute one hundred percent guarantee, he did not
Speaker 6: get any consideration or fair treatment by the system, and
Speaker 6: quite frankly, was identified, early, focused on, and then rare
Speaker 6: roaded into prison.
Speaker 3: That's what I know.
Speaker 7: Eric remember is Yvonne's starcross lover, bad boy she couldn't
Speaker 7: get away from.
Speaker 1: He's supposedly the father of three of her children.
Speaker 7: Duayane interviewed him and left with a disturbing impression.
Speaker 3: He was a hot mess.
Speaker 6: Yeah, anger and rage, disjointed.
Speaker 3: He was he literally very people scared me. He scared me.
Speaker 7: Detectives Mucklow and Samson also brought up Jeremy. Jeremy is
Speaker 7: the boyfriend of Eric's mother, Linda. That's a little complicated,
Speaker 7: but here's the important thing to remember. Linda had taken
Speaker 7: in Vinnie. He was Yvonne's special needs child and the
Speaker 7: son of Eric. Just two weeks before the murder, Yvonne
Speaker 7: took Vinnie back. Vinnie was the four year old who
Speaker 7: was in the house dressed and may have seen the murderer.
Speaker 7: The theory is that Jeremy may have killed Yvonne to
Speaker 7: get Vinnie back for Linda.
Speaker 15: Oh, we don't have a alibi for him, visions. Didn't
Speaker 15: you talk to him? No, I'm talking about that non spas. Yeah,
Speaker 15: well we did, and like did he say, uh, he's
Speaker 15: covered and he gave his fingerprints. He said he'd take
Speaker 15: a polygraph.
Speaker 1: But where is this investigation they did?
Speaker 7: And to Jeremy, I haven't seen a record of it,
Speaker 7: and why did they just drop him if he doesn't
Speaker 7: have an alibi?
Speaker 1: And then the psychic.
Speaker 7: Describes her vision the person she says killed Yvonne. She
Speaker 7: says he's about five foot eight, dark features, and said
Speaker 7: Yvonne knew him very well.
Speaker 10: I want to transject too, I would be a motorcy
Speaker 10: coffee way and somebody who likes to crouch too. Well,
Speaker 10: real big just crossing them. I do know the killer
Speaker 10: has to have the most and he's somebody who's x M.
Speaker 10: You're a marine guy that killed up the killer is
Speaker 10: X army or marine.
Speaker 3: Jeremy kind of looks starfare mustache.
Speaker 9: Well there adolity.
Speaker 15: Eight WHOA I described him to A D didn't.
Speaker 9: I described the guy to A he didn't?
Speaker 5: I I think back in John brought up took twenty.
Speaker 5: Where was Jeremy born? He was? He was not in
Speaker 5: the Vietnam War, but he was the Vietnam during the
Speaker 5: clean up. Okay, yeah, forty I suld like to see
Speaker 5: air Cameron's forty four.
Speaker 9: So he's exactly the age that I just drove for
Speaker 9: the killer.
Speaker 7: Hello, Jeremy is actually five nine, does have a mustache
Speaker 7: and dark hair, dark eyes. And when I got his
Speaker 7: arrest record, it also listed something that shook even me
Speaker 7: somewhat skeptical of the abilities of psychics. He has a
Speaker 7: cross tattoo on his arm. But whether you're a believer
Speaker 7: or not, every one of these people should have been
Speaker 7: looked into, and I have no record of it ever happening,
Speaker 7: especially because remember Vinny, the four year old witness even
Speaker 7: mentioned a Jeremy as the killer. This is Dwayne Pullman again,
Speaker 7: So you know.
Speaker 6: From that standpoint, I was just stunned by a system
Speaker 6: that didn't evaluate even on motive, the potential, you know,
Speaker 6: endless motives of others that could have been a play.
Speaker 7: In his deposition, Detective Sampson was asked about all of
Speaker 7: these people mentioned in the psychic tapes.
Speaker 12: What I'm trying to find out is what when when
Speaker 12: other names are brought up by whether they're coming in
Speaker 12: and tips to EUI or whether you're getting together in
Speaker 12: its situation like this and kind of joint me coming
Speaker 12: up with thoughts.
Speaker 9: I'm like, who could be?
Speaker 8: You know, where can we look for some information? What
Speaker 8: I'm trying to find out is all these names that
Speaker 8: come up from here, where they look into or not.
Speaker 3: I don't know the problem with the case and the
Speaker 3: stuff that has I'm filled with.
Speaker 6: Every time I talk about this case, I get angst
Speaker 6: every time.
Speaker 3: And I'm a pretty calm guy.
Speaker 6: I've been doing journalism for thirty five years at a
Speaker 6: pretty high level, and I've covered some crazy stuff.
Speaker 3: And I felt.
Speaker 6: For the first time in my life on this case
Speaker 6: inadequate on getting to the truth. I've never felt that before. Yeah,
Speaker 6: and I totally forgive me. I'm not trying to have a.
Speaker 3: Session.
Speaker 6: But you know that is really really difficult because I
Speaker 6: worked really hard on this case.
Speaker 3: Look, I don't know where you are in life. I
Speaker 3: know where I am.
Speaker 6: This this case has absolutely consumed just about everyone who
Speaker 6: has touched it, and it's it's it's haunting.
Speaker 3: The case is haunting.
Speaker 6: The main part I'm trying to I'm trying to help you.
Speaker 3: I hope I'm helping you.
Speaker 6: Is that as you evaluate everything, the question really comes
Speaker 6: down to.
Speaker 3: Where do you go?
Speaker 7: And I knew Dwayne was right. It turns out I
Speaker 7: didn't open a can of worms. I opened a can
Speaker 7: of rattlesnakes, corrupt cops, scandals, drugs, and sex. I'm exactly
Speaker 7: where Dwayne was. Over a decade ago. Dwayne had one
Speaker 7: TV special, but it led nowhere despite the heart and
Speaker 7: work that went into it.
Speaker 1: I was frustrated and worried. I was stuck.
Speaker 7: I didn't want to end up where Dwayne did after
Speaker 7: a decade, so I decided it was time to let
Speaker 7: the professionals have a go.
Speaker 1: Coming up on death and deceit in Alliance.
Speaker 16: Spent a lot of time on that and I guess
Speaker 16: one question is three hundred dollars to murder a woman
Speaker 16: in cold blood?
Speaker 6: The reason David Thorne is sitting in jail on now
Speaker 6: is someone that you acknowledge is a fucking liar.
Speaker 16: I know that the allegations are out there that even
Speaker 16: some in the police force wereke an advantage of Yvonne's services.
Speaker 3: If that's in fact what was happening.
Speaker 6: There's a full blown declaration that they went after three
Speaker 6: friends of David's.
Speaker 16: Did they approached first and tried to coerce them into
Speaker 16: testifying against David.
Speaker 3: There are things that.
Speaker 6: Make you say, well, why is he staying at a
Speaker 6: freaking hotel in town that night?
Speaker 3: You know, right off the bat.
Speaker 16: A couple of things that raised my eyebrows are the
Speaker 16: knife in the pants. How did Joe lead them to
Speaker 16: the circumstances? And Joe did lead them there, then that's
Speaker 16: a big deal.
Speaker 7: Death and deceit in Alliance is produced and reported by
Speaker 7: me Maggie Freeling, with editorial consulting from Amber Hunt. Aaron
Speaker 7: Case is our legal researcher. Our executive producer is Steve Fishman.
Speaker 7: Our engineer and production coordinator is Austin Smith. Eric axelrod
Speaker 7: Is our assistant producer.