1
00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:07,720
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

2
00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,600
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the

3
00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,040
Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any

4
00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,760
Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media,

5
00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,480
Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed, as

6
00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,400
Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not

7
00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,720
Speaker 1: even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show

8
00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,680
Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use

9
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:44,760
Speaker 1: any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. So today we're

10
00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:49,639
Speaker 1: gonna talk about America's experience with alcohol prohibition, the eighteenth

11
00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:53,479
Speaker 1: Amendment that passed in and where we had alcohol prohibition

12
00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,080
Speaker 1: this country for thirteen years before it was repealed by

13
00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,200
Speaker 1: the twenty first Amendment. The person I've asked to talk

14
00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,800
Speaker 1: to us about is is Lisa mcgurre. She's a historian

15
00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:05,680
Speaker 1: at Harvard. She first wrote an award winning book on

16
00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,240
Speaker 1: the history of the New Right called Suburban Warriors, and

17
00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,720
Speaker 1: then she wrote a book called The War on Alcohol

18
00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,640
Speaker 1: subtitled Prohibition and the Rise of the American State. And

19
00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,080
Speaker 1: I wanted to have lesa because for a few reasons. First,

20
00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,040
Speaker 1: I think this book, if you're going to read one

21
00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:23,840
Speaker 1: book about alcohol prohibition, its rise, it's enforcement, it's demise,

22
00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,800
Speaker 1: this would be it. It's concise, it covers the field

23
00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,280
Speaker 1: in the literature, but she also does a few other

24
00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:33,600
Speaker 1: things in this book. She emphasizes the importance of alcohol

25
00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:38,160
Speaker 1: prohibition in many ways with basically the evolution of American

26
00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,680
Speaker 1: politics and only twentie century and the rise of the

27
00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,720
Speaker 1: American state. And she brings a special attention to the

28
00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,840
Speaker 1: ways that prohibition was enforced in ways that not only

29
00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:53,160
Speaker 1: resemble the modern drug war, but that also really played

30
00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,960
Speaker 1: an important role in transforming American politics. So, Lisa, thanks

31
00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,000
Speaker 1: so much for joining me on Psychoactive, thanks so much

32
00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,280
Speaker 1: or having me so listen. I mean, why did you

33
00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,240
Speaker 1: write this book? Well, um, why did I write the book?

34
00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:11,080
Speaker 1: I wrote the book partly because I had I was

35
00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,320
Speaker 1: looking at an earlier period. My first book was on

36
00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,200
Speaker 1: the right in the post World War two period, basically

37
00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,880
Speaker 1: looking at the history of the conservative movement from the

38
00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,920
Speaker 1: bottom up, trying to use social history to say something

39
00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,720
Speaker 1: new about the right, uh and the conservative movement, and

40
00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,600
Speaker 1: I felt that it had picked big payoffs to look

41
00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,760
Speaker 1: at the right in a new way, basically trying to

42
00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,240
Speaker 1: understand it from a grassroots perspective, from the perspective ordinary

43
00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,640
Speaker 1: men and women. So I started to think about an

44
00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,080
Speaker 1: earlier iteration or moment of the when the right was

45
00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,960
Speaker 1: pretty powerful, uh, and began to delve into the nineteen twenties.

46
00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:47,959
Speaker 1: And as I did, I worked a little bit on

47
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,720
Speaker 1: the Saco and Manzetti case and anti immigrant case. Kind

48
00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:56,359
Speaker 1: of a moment of heightened nativism and prohibition was popping

49
00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,040
Speaker 1: up all over the place. And it just struck me

50
00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,840
Speaker 1: that his storians had not taken a serious enough look

51
00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:08,720
Speaker 1: at the repercussions of prohibition. What happened once the Eighteenth Amendment,

52
00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,919
Speaker 1: which was of course the amendment to the Constitution enacting

53
00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:16,639
Speaker 1: national prohibition. What happened once it had passed. Stories have

54
00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:21,840
Speaker 1: did a great job looking at the movement for national prohibition,

55
00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,040
Speaker 1: how it came about. There was a hundred year old

56
00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:29,880
Speaker 1: campaign for what was called temperance for sort of you know,

57
00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:35,080
Speaker 1: basically trying to tamp down on alcohol consumption. But once

58
00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,720
Speaker 1: we got to the Eighteenth Amendment, once it was passed,

59
00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,480
Speaker 1: historians kind of had felt that, you know, this was

60
00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,080
Speaker 1: a huge policy failure, and there wasn't much to say

61
00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,960
Speaker 1: it was a great disaster, and as we well know,

62
00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:54,000
Speaker 1: it was certainly somewhat disastrous, but there were huge implications

63
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,560
Speaker 1: that historians had not done enough to tease out. So

64
00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,200
Speaker 1: I was really interested in looking at what happened after

65
00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,320
Speaker 1: what was the unfolding of national prohibition. Of course, it

66
00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,000
Speaker 1: was relatively short lived, right, It was rescinded by ninety

67
00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,280
Speaker 1: three with the First Amendment, and that was partly one

68
00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:14,880
Speaker 1: of the reasons why historians didn't pay that much attention

69
00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,120
Speaker 1: to it. But you know, there was a lot more

70
00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,200
Speaker 1: to say, as I uncovered through looking at it from

71
00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,320
Speaker 1: a different angle, which was not to tell kind of

72
00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:27,479
Speaker 1: a national story of speakeasies at rum runners, but to

73
00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,880
Speaker 1: look at the experience of ordinary men and women with

74
00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,360
Speaker 1: the Prohibition Amendment and the way prohibition was enforced um

75
00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,680
Speaker 1: and how it affected politics. And so by looking at

76
00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,080
Speaker 1: the kind of from the bottom up perspective and delving

77
00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,680
Speaker 1: into different parts of the country, I was able to tell,

78
00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,719
Speaker 1: I think, someone more consequential story of national Prohibition that

79
00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,640
Speaker 1: had been told until the publication of the book, at least,

80
00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,960
Speaker 1: I hope so. Okay, no, no, I think so, because

81
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:54,279
Speaker 1: you know what I thought about. But there's been a

82
00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:55,960
Speaker 1: lot of great books about prohibition. I mean, it was

83
00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,560
Speaker 1: a one by Daniel Oakrank Last Call, and I think

84
00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,040
Speaker 1: that probably helped shape the docum menory that ken Burns

85
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,040
Speaker 1: did about prohibition a few years ago. But your book

86
00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,680
Speaker 1: really does break this sort of new ground in terms

87
00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,120
Speaker 1: of emphasizing the role in the sort of rise of

88
00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,760
Speaker 1: the American state. But just to quickly go to the

89
00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,440
Speaker 1: period that was led up to the eighteenth Amendment. As

90
00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,240
Speaker 1: you point out, there's these temperance movements in America. There

91
00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,600
Speaker 1: were states that are prohibited alcohol in the middle of

92
00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,240
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, and then repeal those things the temperance

93
00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,880
Speaker 1: moment begins to rise again. And some of that history

94
00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,240
Speaker 1: is quite familiar, right. We know that you know that

95
00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,159
Speaker 1: there's an element of Protestant churches. We know there's the

96
00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,800
Speaker 1: progressive movement that was bringing us all these good things

97
00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,200
Speaker 1: like child labor protection and food and drug control and

98
00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,240
Speaker 1: antitrust laws and women's right to vote and uh direct

99
00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,720
Speaker 1: election of senators. So there was an active progressive movement.

100
00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,200
Speaker 1: Alcohol prohibition gets caught up in all of that. There's

101
00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:49,279
Speaker 1: also the concerns about industrialization. You know, workers having accidents

102
00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,960
Speaker 1: and factories, automobiles emerging, people are driving drunk and dying

103
00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,679
Speaker 1: on the rows. All of these things are going together.

104
00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,520
Speaker 1: But you really hone in especially on sort of this

105
00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,760
Speaker 1: particular marriage between progressivism, that progressive era that brought us

106
00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,440
Speaker 1: all those good things and also embraces alcohol prohibition and

107
00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,400
Speaker 1: then evangelical Protestanism. And you point, for example, with the

108
00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,039
Speaker 1: starts of the Women's Christian Temperance Union back in the

109
00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:18,240
Speaker 1: eighteen seventies. So talk about that marriage there, that that relationship,

110
00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,599
Speaker 1: and how that distinctly marks you know, the u S

111
00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,440
Speaker 1: experience and how the how we emerge evolve from a

112
00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,560
Speaker 1: sort of temperance movement that's really focused on alcohol moderation

113
00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:34,640
Speaker 1: and not total prohibition into a full throttle prohibition movement. Right. Well,

114
00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,000
Speaker 1: it's really interesting because there was this hundred year old

115
00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:42,840
Speaker 1: campaign for temperance that was very much focused on individual discipline,

116
00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:49,360
Speaker 1: on taking a pledge to basically discipline oneself against the

117
00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,920
Speaker 1: addiction and the problem of alcohol excessive alcohol consumption. By

118
00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,880
Speaker 1: the late nineteenth century, with the emergence of the Women's

119
00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,279
Speaker 1: Christians Temperance Union, the Anti Saloon League, there is a

120
00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,000
Speaker 1: sense that individual abstinence is not going to be enough

121
00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,240
Speaker 1: to solve the problem of the liquor issue, and there's

122
00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,440
Speaker 1: a turn toward using you know, sort of policy, using

123
00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,120
Speaker 1: the law at the state and local level. But with

124
00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,480
Speaker 1: the rise of progressivism in the early twentieth century, there's

125
00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,200
Speaker 1: a turn toward using the federal government to solve social

126
00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,440
Speaker 1: and economic problems. And this is really a big moment

127
00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,080
Speaker 1: in that period of constitutional activism. Right it's the moment

128
00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,240
Speaker 1: when we get the direct election of senators, where we

129
00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,160
Speaker 1: get the income tax amendment. It's the moment where we

130
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,120
Speaker 1: get four amendments within a period of less than a decade,

131
00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:41,880
Speaker 1: including women's suffrage. So the turn towards constitutional activism and

132
00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,600
Speaker 1: towards using the federal government to solve social and economic

133
00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,800
Speaker 1: problems is one in which progressives are fundamentally aware of

134
00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,880
Speaker 1: and interested in using to solve the alcohol problem. But

135
00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:57,400
Speaker 1: it also intersects then with the absolutest crusade of these

136
00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,800
Speaker 1: folks within the evangelical Christian move meant, those within the

137
00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,720
Speaker 1: Anti Saloon League and the w c TU, the Women's

138
00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:08,760
Speaker 1: Christian Temperance Union, that are far more stringent in their approach. Right,

139
00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,080
Speaker 1: So they don't just want to get rid of regulate alcohol,

140
00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,440
Speaker 1: which may have been a solution progressive reformers might have embraced.

141
00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,880
Speaker 1: They want to go full hog and basically outlaw all imbibing.

142
00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:24,680
Speaker 1: And there's a relationship between those two movements, and what

143
00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,520
Speaker 1: ends up happening is that the solution proposed by those

144
00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,160
Speaker 1: that are more along the evangelical Christian lines is the

145
00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,280
Speaker 1: one that comes to fruition, which is a total ban

146
00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:40,760
Speaker 1: on alcohol, which essentially far basically outruns many of the

147
00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,080
Speaker 1: problems that were proposed in generating a whole new slew

148
00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,880
Speaker 1: and setup problems in the nineties. As a result of

149
00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,360
Speaker 1: this total absolute ban on all forms of liquor imbibing. Well,

150
00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,760
Speaker 1: you also bring into sort of European dimensions here, right,

151
00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:56,760
Speaker 1: I mean, one is the fact that part of what

152
00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:01,560
Speaker 1: accelerates dramatically the progress towards the eighteenth Amendment and and

153
00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,320
Speaker 1: the banning of alcohol, I mean to an extent that

154
00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,480
Speaker 1: it goes much faster than even that, even faster than

155
00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,520
Speaker 1: any of the advocates expect, is World War One. And

156
00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,680
Speaker 1: that results in a kind of anti German sentiment. It

157
00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,440
Speaker 1: results in, you know, people being opposed to the breweries

158
00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,040
Speaker 1: which are German owned. It results in a serit of

159
00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,560
Speaker 1: wartime self sacrifice, so that people are y ways grain

160
00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:23,520
Speaker 1: on drinking when we should be getting it to the

161
00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,120
Speaker 1: troops and for that sort of thing. But then there's

162
00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,400
Speaker 1: another element to this, right, which is that the the

163
00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,120
Speaker 1: temperance movement is also happening in Europe and other parts

164
00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,680
Speaker 1: of the Anglophone world in the late nineteenth early twentieth century.

165
00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,520
Speaker 1: They're placing restrictions on alcohol. They're doing time and place restrictions,

166
00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,840
Speaker 1: they're limiting hard liquor, all these sorts of things. But

167
00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,800
Speaker 1: almost nobody except sort of you know, Finland and Iceland

168
00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,720
Speaker 1: are going for full alcohol prohibition. And the argument you make,

169
00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,120
Speaker 1: as I understand it correctly, is that the reason, the

170
00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,960
Speaker 1: key reason America, which initially is almost following in the

171
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:58,720
Speaker 1: footsteps of the Europeans, sort of leapfrogs them into total prohibition,

172
00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,800
Speaker 1: is this event jelical Protestant dimension. That's right. You know,

173
00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,720
Speaker 1: it's interesting because World War One is incredibly important for

174
00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:12,000
Speaker 1: basically spiraling the Crusade to success, uh and without World One,

175
00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:16,559
Speaker 1: it's possible that the prohibition Amendment would never have passed. Basically,

176
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,400
Speaker 1: it's during the war that because you see all of

177
00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,720
Speaker 1: these kind of efforts across those nations were involved in

178
00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,560
Speaker 1: the war to limit alcohol consumption, right, to provide food

179
00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,080
Speaker 1: for the troops with hops and wheat, basically, to uh,

180
00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,520
Speaker 1: you know, sort of to discipline the troops. Um, they're

181
00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,720
Speaker 1: all sorts of partial prohibitionary measures that are passed. But

182
00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,080
Speaker 1: the US, again, it's it's exactly what you say is

183
00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,840
Speaker 1: correct that because of the evangelical Protestant crusaders kind of

184
00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,640
Speaker 1: more absolutest approach, the United States does not go for

185
00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:54,719
Speaker 1: a partial prohibitionary measure, rather for a total and complete ban.

186
00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:59,360
Speaker 1: And of course, once the prohibition Amendment is passed, the

187
00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:04,920
Speaker 1: way at the enforcement legislation defines alcohol consumption as point

188
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:09,160
Speaker 1: five percent of alcohol as an intoxicating beverage, means that

189
00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,840
Speaker 1: all alcohol, wines, gears, and distilled liquors will be banned,

190
00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:19,320
Speaker 1: uh in total. And that essentially is a very very

191
00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,080
Speaker 1: different kind of experience than than it happened in many

192
00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,559
Speaker 1: many other industrial countries that were during war time past

193
00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,800
Speaker 1: these partial prohibitionary measures. So the US ends up in

194
00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,880
Speaker 1: a unique position for a large industrial nation and with

195
00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,200
Speaker 1: a unique set of problems in its wake, and also

196
00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:39,280
Speaker 1: with a kind of unique form of state building that

197
00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,640
Speaker 1: comes out of prohibition, which pushes the US state in

198
00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,959
Speaker 1: a direction of policing and surveillance, a state that becomes

199
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:51,080
Speaker 1: more heavy on coercion, uh than on social provisioning in

200
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:55,520
Speaker 1: comparison to some other European states. Well, in that context,

201
00:11:55,679 --> 00:12:00,760
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about Richard Hobson. Uh. Yeah, Well,

202
00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,119
Speaker 1: Hobson was one of the what was called fathers of prohibition.

203
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:10,320
Speaker 1: He was the highest paid lecturer for the Anti Saloon League.

204
00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,160
Speaker 1: He had been uh in the military, was a military

205
00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:19,640
Speaker 1: figure who really sought to use the state. Two. Was

206
00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,080
Speaker 1: sort of aggressive and using the state to solve what

207
00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,959
Speaker 1: he saw as social and economic problems. He was a

208
00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:31,560
Speaker 1: very strong anti liquor crusader. What's fascinating about him is that, uh,

209
00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,920
Speaker 1: first he comes out with all sorts of exaggerated tropes

210
00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,040
Speaker 1: about the problem and danger of alcohol. Uh. You know

211
00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,800
Speaker 1: that basically then this is classic for the probition movement.

212
00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:47,599
Speaker 1: More broadly, that alcohol consumption is responsible for half of poverty,

213
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:54,240
Speaker 1: for insane asylums, for you know, all sorts of problems. Basically,

214
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,880
Speaker 1: alcohol prohibition is seen as a panacea for many prohibitionists.

215
00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,600
Speaker 1: Richmond Hopson. Was so interesting about him is during the

216
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:08,239
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties, he moved from the crusade against alcohol toward

217
00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,440
Speaker 1: a crusade against other forms of narcotic drugs. And that's

218
00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:14,960
Speaker 1: where I argue in my book that there's a kind

219
00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:19,600
Speaker 1: of symbiotic relationship between the crusade against alcohol and the

220
00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:25,040
Speaker 1: crusade against narcotic substances. More broadly, It's something that's pretty much,

221
00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:29,000
Speaker 1: I think been neglected because we have a tendency to

222
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:33,360
Speaker 1: look at alcohol prohibition very very much as a different

223
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,439
Speaker 1: kind of crusade than the crusade against other narcotic drugs.

224
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,480
Speaker 1: But if you look at somebody like Richmond Hobson, you

225
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,319
Speaker 1: see the connections. It's almost a little more complicated in

226
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,840
Speaker 1: that because even before I think he gets involved alcohol prohibition,

227
00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,240
Speaker 1: he has his own interaction with the prohibition of drugs

228
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,719
Speaker 1: and opium when the United States occupies the Philippines and

229
00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,800
Speaker 1: they have an opium control system there that's left over

230
00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,200
Speaker 1: working pretty well for elderly opium users and under pressure

231
00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,439
Speaker 1: from within the US right from you know, oftentimes religious

232
00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,640
Speaker 1: figures on Bishop Brent is one and I think Hobson

233
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,520
Speaker 1: is another. You know, they basically get their initial taste

234
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,200
Speaker 1: through a post you know, basically pushing for an arcotics

235
00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:16,840
Speaker 1: control and bands on opium imports and a more international approach,

236
00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,320
Speaker 1: which is not so much the story with alcohol prohibition,

237
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,600
Speaker 1: right it is it is in this case. So Hobson

238
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,520
Speaker 1: almost sort of wets his teeth on the narcotic piece,

239
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,840
Speaker 1: then dives into alcohol and then comes back out on

240
00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,280
Speaker 1: narcotics here. So it's a great it's a great point

241
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,360
Speaker 1: to make, and I think that things. So there's you

242
00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,600
Speaker 1: see the kind of building or the forging of a

243
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:39,880
Speaker 1: kind of incipient anti narcotic regime in the early twentieth century,

244
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:44,600
Speaker 1: particularly around opium. But until you get national prohibition, you

245
00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,240
Speaker 1: do not see the kind of criminalization of addiction at

246
00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,520
Speaker 1: the level you do in the in the wake of prohibition.

247
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,160
Speaker 1: So it's in the nineties twenties, um, that you get

248
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,240
Speaker 1: really sort of the end of addiction maintenance, a far

249
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:05,440
Speaker 1: more p approach toward users. And you know somebody like um,

250
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,200
Speaker 1: Harry Ansling or who basically says that, you know, you

251
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:12,000
Speaker 1: should lock him up and throw away the key approach

252
00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:16,200
Speaker 1: to alcohol prohibition that he also sought to forge, but

253
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,560
Speaker 1: that was less successful. But towards drug use he was

254
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,320
Speaker 1: a far more successful in doing right, I mean, Harry answer,

255
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,040
Speaker 1: there is another crossover guy. Right. He spends the early

256
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,080
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties heading the Foreign Control section of the U s.

257
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,480
Speaker 1: National Bureau of Alcohol Probition Enforcement, and then in nineteen

258
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,840
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, in the late twenties, and then in becomes

259
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,200
Speaker 1: the first head of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics. So

260
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,440
Speaker 1: he's another person who transitions over as And we're sort

261
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,120
Speaker 1: of jumping ahead of our story here because you also

262
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:44,960
Speaker 1: get that with the Rich Women Christian Temperance Union when

263
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,320
Speaker 1: ultimately prohibition gets repealed and they make a shift over.

264
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,480
Speaker 1: But I want to dive into one more point before

265
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,840
Speaker 1: we get actually two the years of prohibition, which is

266
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,400
Speaker 1: you also point out that part of the transformation is

267
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,440
Speaker 1: happening only twentieth century. Is this massive immigration happening into America.

268
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,480
Speaker 1: Right that by fifteen percent of the American population is

269
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,120
Speaker 1: far and born in New York City, It's by nineteen

270
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,680
Speaker 1: twenty in Chicago, by two thirds of all people living

271
00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,200
Speaker 1: there either far and born or the children of far

272
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,680
Speaker 1: and born parents. So there's this massive transformation with immigrants

273
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,200
Speaker 1: coming from southern and Eastern Europe and basically the older

274
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,400
Speaker 1: multi generation of white folks who had come from Western

275
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,440
Speaker 1: and Northern Europe and earlier generations freaking out, and for them,

276
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:33,840
Speaker 1: the association with alcohol is huge, and particularly the saloon culture.

277
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,600
Speaker 1: So just elaborate upon why in many respects that you

278
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,640
Speaker 1: have this movement where the saloon culture really becomes the

279
00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 1: dominant element of the prohibition movement. Yeah, I mean, in

280
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,640
Speaker 1: a way, the salute, the problem of the saloon, of

281
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:53,760
Speaker 1: the saloon is what brought progressive reformers together with those evangelicals.

282
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:58,120
Speaker 1: So progressives were largely concerned about the problems faced by

283
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,480
Speaker 1: poor immigrants, the ways in which you know, there was

284
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,119
Speaker 1: great poverty in these cities, unpaved streets, and of course

285
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,920
Speaker 1: these this new institution of the saloon. There was actually

286
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,080
Speaker 1: a decline in the late nineteenth century of the use

287
00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,520
Speaker 1: of hard liquors, but there was also a rise in

288
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 1: beer consumption, and beer consumption was associated with the the

289
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,800
Speaker 1: imbibing in the kind of all male, boisterous public space

290
00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,439
Speaker 1: of the saloon, and the balloons were ubiquitous in urban

291
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:32,200
Speaker 1: uh immigrant ethnic neighborhoods. Um they were also spaces where

292
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,639
Speaker 1: politics took place, and they were associated with big urban machines.

293
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:40,920
Speaker 1: Another issue for progressives who saw machines as extremely corrupt

294
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,399
Speaker 1: and sought to tamp down on the power of machines.

295
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,360
Speaker 1: So shutting down the saloon was a way of basically,

296
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,640
Speaker 1: in their eyes, solving the problem of those men who

297
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,679
Speaker 1: stopped in the saloon on the way home, solving a

298
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,200
Speaker 1: problem for women who were faced with more abusive husbands

299
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,280
Speaker 1: once they arrived home from the saloon. Um, and also

300
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,600
Speaker 1: solving the problem of the of the nature of the

301
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,679
Speaker 1: saloon is a political space. So those progressives linked up

302
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:13,560
Speaker 1: with these sort of uh evangelical Christian men and women

303
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,840
Speaker 1: basically forming a consensus around we need to eradicate the

304
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,960
Speaker 1: saloon problem. Uh, and that saloon problem became the kind

305
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:27,399
Speaker 1: of force that snowballed and basically helped to lead to uh,

306
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:32,320
Speaker 1: the National Prohibition Amendment. Okay, So basically this brings us

307
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,080
Speaker 1: up to nineteen twenty. All these variables in play. The

308
00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,160
Speaker 1: fact that we had passed the sixteenth Amendment instituting an

309
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,879
Speaker 1: income tax meant that the federal government was not quite

310
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,600
Speaker 1: so dependent upon taxes and alcohol, which I think it

311
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,120
Speaker 1: counter for almost of the federal budget at that time.

312
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,240
Speaker 1: So that alleviate that you had the whole wartime period

313
00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 1: where the federal government, as during the Civil War, plays

314
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,800
Speaker 1: a bigger role in American society. You had some progressive

315
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,280
Speaker 1: era and stuff to having making that happen as well. Right,

316
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,359
Speaker 1: and so get national alcohol prohibition, and initially, right, there's

317
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,760
Speaker 1: a huge period of optimism that this thing can actually work,

318
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,640
Speaker 1: all sorts of surprising people's support, even people who had

319
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,679
Speaker 1: opposed alcohol prohibition said let's give it a try. You

320
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,080
Speaker 1: see a dramatic drop in alcohol consumption, alcohol ills in

321
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,359
Speaker 1: those early years, right, you know, things are looking good,

322
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:25,199
Speaker 1: but resistance is beginning to emerge. So talk about the

323
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,560
Speaker 1: early elements of that, well, I mean, you know, it

324
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,000
Speaker 1: has to realize in terms of this sort of optimism

325
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,760
Speaker 1: or feeling that one should even somebody like Felix Frankfort

326
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:34,800
Speaker 1: who had posed the passage of the amendment and said,

327
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,199
Speaker 1: let's give it a chance. Right, it was part of

328
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:41,480
Speaker 1: the constitution. No constitutional amendment had ever been rescinded. So

329
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,040
Speaker 1: it's certainly made sense it was now law of the land,

330
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,600
Speaker 1: that there would be efforts at enforcement, and that there

331
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 1: was some sense of optimism in that early moment. But

332
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,800
Speaker 1: you know, many places were extremely quote unquote wet and sentiment,

333
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,080
Speaker 1: especially urban big cities with lots of immigrant populations, They

334
00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:05,120
Speaker 1: had no inten of basically stopping their desire for what

335
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,200
Speaker 1: was important part of their leisure life and cultural habits

336
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,680
Speaker 1: and certain elements of of uh, you know, religious life.

337
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:17,680
Speaker 1: So basically there was efforts to continue consumption, and there were,

338
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,320
Speaker 1: of course, given the desire for Americans to continue in binding.

339
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 1: Very soon there were those who already had been involved

340
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 1: in other kinds of prostitution rings or gambling that saw

341
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 1: an opportunity for a incredibly thriving possibility for a black

342
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,119
Speaker 1: market in alcohol training and as a result, of course,

343
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,000
Speaker 1: you know, organized criminal rings basically generated new forms of

344
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:48,359
Speaker 1: supply um and oiled their operations with forms of corruption

345
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,680
Speaker 1: up and down the federal enforcement chain. So even though

346
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,639
Speaker 1: there was there was tremendous amounts of effort to enforce

347
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,840
Speaker 1: prohibition and actually optimism and that this law would be

348
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 1: enforced right the prohibition or it was established customs officers

349
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,479
Speaker 1: responsible for forcing the law, that border patrol got involved

350
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 1: with enforcement, and of course at the state and local level,

351
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,720
Speaker 1: most states passed their own enforcement laws, and so there,

352
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 1: you know, was some sense that this could potentially work

353
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,159
Speaker 1: and that quickly, however, fell apart because of the fact

354
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,919
Speaker 1: that many Americans still desired to continue to imbibe, and

355
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 1: they did so, and and prohibition generated an entire new,

356
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 1: subterranean kind of black market for alcohol. We'll be talking

357
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 1: more after we hear this. Add So, there's one character

358
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: that I didn't know about until I read your book,

359
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 1: UM and just talk about his role and how he plays.

360
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,440
Speaker 1: It's not just he plays a huge I don't know

361
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 1: if he plays a big national role, but it's his

362
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,879
Speaker 1: ways of thinking about it that really sort of shaped

363
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 1: the evolution of the movement to repeal alcohol prohibition. And

364
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 1: here I'm thinking about Anton Chernak. If I'm saying his

365
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 1: name right, the Chicago based politician explain what was significant

366
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 1: about him. Anton was a kind of significant figure in

367
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 1: Chicago UM and basically became it was sort of an

368
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 1: bohemian from Bohemia and ethnic immigrant who was really deeply

369
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:37,959
Speaker 1: opposed to prohibition. UM and mobilized essentially immigrant groups in

370
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 1: Chicago at the local level to oppose prohibition and passing

371
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:48,680
Speaker 1: a series of sort of proposals at the local level

372
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 1: in Chicago against prohibition that we're not going to have

373
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 1: force at the national level, but showing this kind of

374
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:59,640
Speaker 1: staunch anti immigrant sentiment um and basically you know, argued that,

375
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,159
Speaker 1: you know, the the only way to get rid of

376
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 1: organized crime was to get rid of Prohibition. So Anton

377
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 1: Saramac basically was one of these local figures that I

378
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 1: think showed the incredible opposition of ethnic immigrant working class

379
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 1: men and women to Prohibition way before Al Smith came

380
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:27,159
Speaker 1: into the picture. Al Smith, of course, was a prominent

381
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: Irish Catholic, multi term governor of New York who eventually

382
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 1: ran for president in n But what long before that,

383
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: somebody like Anton Saramac had been mobilizing within the Democratic

384
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 1: Party at the local level and bringing ethnic working class

385
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 1: men and women into the Democratic Party around Prohibition opposition.

386
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: And that's really important because this is a moment where

387
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: you see Prohibition generating a new politicization of men and

388
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 1: women who had basically you have, not been part of

389
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,640
Speaker 1: certainly not part of national politics, who increasingly come to

390
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 1: become an important part of the Democratic Party coalition in

391
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 1: the twenties as a result of Prohibition opposition, right, I mean,

392
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 1: part of what you get to right around n and

393
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 1: al Smith. Al Smith is really the first Catholic to

394
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 1: run for a major major party nomination for president, and

395
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 1: he runs strongly on an anti repeal prohibition line. He

396
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 1: gets obliterated in night in the election by Herbert Hoover,

397
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: but nonetheless plays a major role in sort of shifting

398
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 1: this coalition, right, one where you have basically where we're

399
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 1: working class people in immigrants has sort of been divided

400
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: between Democrats and Republicans, depending upon local politics, depending upon ethnicity,

401
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: really begins to pull them all together. And this was

402
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: also a group where you know, wine and beer was

403
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 1: always very much part of the culture, so it sort

404
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 1: of made sense that you would see this emergence happening

405
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,479
Speaker 1: out of places like Chicago. But the other group, of

406
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 1: course a African Americans, right, And what's interesting there is

407
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 1: a little bit different because African Americans have more of

408
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 1: a temperance culture. They're not typically Catholic, they have more

409
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 1: of a tradition, you know, ministers playing a very powerful role, right,

410
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: many of them support alcohol prohibition, and then sort of

411
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: alcohol prohibition kind of comes along and low and behold,

412
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: they find just what this sort of working class whites

413
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: do that when it comes to enforcing the prohibition laws,

414
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 1: it's not you know, middle and upper middle class white

415
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: families that are by and large getting you know, rested

416
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 1: or having their houses raider, being thrown in jail. It's blacks,

417
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: and it's poor whites in the South and in the

418
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: and in the and the urban cities. Part of what

419
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 1: I'm curious about, why did this occur or did it

420
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: occur to basically leading black leaders the book or T.

421
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: Washington's the others at that time in the early twentieth century.

422
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 1: Why didn't they oppose prohibition anticipating that they would be

423
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: the principal victims of its enforcements. I think it's important

424
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: to look at a kind of class division, that there's

425
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: a sort of politics of respect ability among the middle

426
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 1: class African Americans who really, you know, sort of believe

427
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: that there is a way that limiting alcohol consumption, just

428
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: like progressive white progressive reformers did for the white working class,

429
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 1: would uplift those others, right, poor others, poor African Americans. Um,

430
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: but I think, what so, there is a kind of

431
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: a way in which many of the sort of elite

432
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: voices when in the African American community at the early

433
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: edge of prohibition, are in fact supportive of prohibition. That

434
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 1: falls apart pretty quickly when they see the repercussions um

435
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: and why they didn't see it before. We prohibition is

436
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: in a way, it's dramatically new, at least at the

437
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: national level, and the the implications for black communities are

438
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: very intense, and that it becomes quickly known in places

439
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: like South Side of Chicago or Harlem in New York

440
00:26:55,640 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: where police would allow vice, the vice districts deplour ish,

441
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 1: right And as a result of that, it's not only

442
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: that poor African Americans are being arrested thrown in jail

443
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: for violating the law a disproportioned rates. It's also that

444
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: the violence that's rained down through elicit markets occurse of

445
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: course within African American communities, right, they're the most affected

446
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 1: by the violence that happens in gang warfare in these

447
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,360
Speaker 1: illicit industries. Um. So, bombings take place in so outside

448
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: of Chicago and Harlem and other places, and of course

449
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: this is a place where you get slumming right where

450
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,239
Speaker 1: they're Whites in other parts of the city go for

451
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 1: their entertainment uh and for imbibing and so all of that.

452
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 1: Then African American leaders quickly see the problems of prohibition

453
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: and somebody like Marcus Garvey actually had always been who's

454
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: an outlier in a way, sort of the very well

455
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: known black nationalist who was was initially opposed to prohibition.

456
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: It comes out really forcefully against it, but pretty soon

457
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: you get a lot of leaders African American leisure oppos

458
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 1: is what basically they see unfolding with all the eighteenth Amendment.

459
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: So now this gets us into the thick of prohibition

460
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: where in the mid to late twenties now, right, and

461
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: while you have on the one hand, this disproportioned enforcement,

462
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: especially against blacks and other minorities working then oftentimes poor

463
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 1: whites and sometimes working class whites in other areas, you

464
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 1: also have the prohibition culture that emerges. Right. You have

465
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: the Harlem renaissance, You have the jazz culture. You have

466
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 1: white people going to hear jazz. You have all the

467
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 1: excitement in New York and that emanating out to the

468
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: rest of the country. You have blacks and whites interacting

469
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: more and more in terms of on the bootlegging, right,

470
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: oftentimes blacks working for white but more and more working

471
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: together on this sort of stuff. And so there's a transformation.

472
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: You know, women going because it's not saloons anymore. But

473
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: now they're going to speak easies, and there's and and

474
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: there's greater you know, gender not about equality, but sort

475
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: of gender mixing in places where previously that would not

476
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: have been accepted for quote unquote good women to go to.

477
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: And obviously what happens is is the Women's Christian Temperance Union,

478
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: the Evangelical Protestants are freaking out, The old Anti Saloon

479
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: League is freaking out, and they find an ally in

480
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: the ku Klux Klan, which had fallen on hard times

481
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: and now sees alcohol prohibition and the potential to play

482
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: a role as an enforcement arm of prohibition as their great,

483
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: big opportunity. So tell us a little more about that,

484
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: you know, sort of ugly partnership between these three major players. Well,

485
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: you know, I think that it's exactly right to point

486
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: out that prohibition really does despite all of the efforts

487
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: and enforcement, and despite the fact that you know, prison

488
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: numbers are rising, men and women are being incarce incarcerated

489
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: selectively right working class men and women, uh, you know,

490
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: white Ethnics, African Americans. Still there's this huge revolutionizing of

491
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: nightlife and as you also point out, sort of this

492
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: racial mixing as well as gender mixing, and the new

493
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: subterranean kind of world of the saloon, or that what

494
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: not the saloon, but now the kind of cocktail world

495
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: of of these new drink spaces, And that generates a

496
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of anxiety among those men and women who

497
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: had fought so hard to pass the law. Right the

498
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: w c TU, the Anti Saloon League, and those men

499
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: and women now see that this is prohibition, is the

500
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: law of the land. So they're looking for ways to

501
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: enforce it. Right there, w c TU comes up with

502
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: the motto, work for enforcement where you are. The Anti

503
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: Saloon League also seeks to work for enforcement. Well. When

504
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: the Kool Klux Klan, which is of course a white supremacist,

505
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: anti immigrant, anti Catholic organization, sells itself to white evangelical

506
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: men and women who already anxious about the problem right

507
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: the scandal of the lack of law enforcement, the clan

508
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: sees an opportunity to basically use the problem of the

509
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: lack of enforcement, the problem of the kind of of

510
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: bootlegging of speakeasies and argue that we will clean up.

511
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: We will going to clean up your community. Right, So

512
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: they instrumentalize the law to recruit men and women into

513
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: their ranks quite successfully. So you see, basically the clan

514
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: was established in nineteen fifteen, but it's in nineteen twenty

515
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: that they begin to really take off. They do so

516
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: partly because it's the wake of World War One, there's

517
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: a lot of anxiety about returning African American veterans, the

518
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: kind of new militancy in the community. But they also

519
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: do so because they have an opportunity with this new

520
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: law of the land, to sell themselves to white Evangelical

521
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: Protestants as a law enforcement organization. Right, So they recruit

522
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: around the issue of bootlegging. We're gonna come in, we're

523
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: gonna clean up your community. Of course, who they target

524
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: in their enforcement raids is the drinking of not themselves

525
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: because they're they're not totally tempered themselves, but off the

526
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: drinking of others, right, Catholics, immigrants, African Americans. Um. So

527
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: they use prohibition, they use the at the Amendment as

528
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: a as a mechanism to basically, uh, you know, boost

529
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:09,479
Speaker 1: themselves and become incredibly powerful in the nineties. Right, you're

530
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: leading out a little bit here the role the Jews too,

531
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: I mean, the leading anti Semite of the day, Henry Ford.

532
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: You quote his newspaper at one point saying, you know

533
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: where his dearborn independence says that of all bootlegging is

534
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: Jewish right and at KKK also being anti Semitic, although

535
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,479
Speaker 1: obviously the numbers of the Catholics are much much greater,

536
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: and in a way some of this reminds me. I mean,

537
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: you know, you have them getting involved in the same

538
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: way that sort of in vigilante groups and citizen armies,

539
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: in the way that you had people in the southwestern

540
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: more recent decades mobilizing to try to do something about

541
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: illegal you know, immigration in the United States, or maybe

542
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: there's even analogy to make, or recently with the recent

543
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: changes in some of these laws to allow civilian lawsuits

544
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: right against people involved in abortion once again trying to mobilize.

545
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: Are sometimes arm sort of citizen groups that are welcomed

546
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: by law enforce authorities, even federal law enforcement authorities, because

547
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: they just feel understaffed overman like you know, billy putting

548
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: their finger in the dike of you know, a widespread

549
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: law violation. That's right. So basically the clan not only

550
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 1: operates at the local level, as a kind of bolt

551
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: to bolster local policing, but at certain points is deputized

552
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: in fact, at one point by the Federal Prohibition Bureau

553
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: to serve as kind of ground troops to help to

554
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: clean up these communities. So in the case I look

555
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: at in terms of the citizen enforcement Army in southern Illinois,

556
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: you have clan members going to Washington, traveling to Washington

557
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: to say, hey, we need your help cleaning up our communities.

558
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: Is that we have a wide open community in Williamson County, Illinois.

559
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: And Roy Haynes at that time is the head of

560
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: the Federal Prohibition Bureau says, you know what, we we

561
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: don't have the band power, We don't have the people

562
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: power to do it. But if you, if you will

563
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: sort of as as sort of foot soldiers and find

564
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: the evidence, you know, we will bring in federal uh.

565
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: We we will deputize and bring in Federal Prohibition Bureau

566
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 1: agents to help you. And basically the federal government deputizes

567
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: essentially folks who are members of the clan to conduct

568
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: a series of raids, and those raids at first target roadhouses,

569
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: target bootleg facilities, and soon it devolves into an attack

570
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: essentially on the what is largely an Italian Catholic presence

571
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: in herren Uh and Marian in Williamson County, Illinois, where

572
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: basically Catholic churches are rated UM and immigrant homes are

573
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,439
Speaker 1: also rated UM. And it becomes really almost a form

574
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: of terrorism against the community which is leveraged or utilized

575
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,399
Speaker 1: and led by the clan deputized by the Prohibition Bureau.

576
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: This becomes such a problem for the Bureau that by

577
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: ninety six and twenty seven they're arguing, we cannot utilize

578
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: any citizen ballvolunteers in our raids because they often turned

579
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: so violent. But you see, it's not just in Williamson County,

580
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: but in other parts of the country. The clan it

581
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 1: backs and supports local police who are overwhelmed to conduct

582
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: raids and to try to shut down drinking establishments. I mean,

583
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: at least I'll tell you, I mean some of the

584
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 1: analogies here and obviously because your other work on the

585
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: new Right to the contemporary day, I mean, the KKK

586
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 1: is not just fringe. Then it's electing senators, it's electing governors.

587
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: It has real political power, and their extreme it also,

588
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: you know, and it reminds me of what's a little

589
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: bit what was going on today where you have a

590
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 1: really radical kind of you know, trumpist right wing you know,

591
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: element that's becoming more and more powerful, it seems in

592
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: the United States, and even though they were sort of

593
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: you know, just by the edge defeated in many places

594
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: in the recent election, seems to be gaining traction among

595
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 1: a growing on a number of Americans. And also the

596
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: history of political violence. I mean, we think about America

597
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 1: as not having had much political violence since the assassination's

598
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: late sixties and some of the racial violence that happened then.

599
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 1: But when you take us back to that era of

600
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 1: the teams in the twenties, when you had literally fights

601
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,240
Speaker 1: over prohibition, political fights things like that, with people being killed,

602
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: people being threatened. Um, I mean, it reminds us that,

603
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: you know, America, you know, does have these levels, that

604
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: has these histories of significant sort of social cultural political violence,

605
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: and in some respects it at the times seems like

606
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: we may be returning to some days like that. I mean,

607
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: where you might even fear that you know, state you know,

608
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: state police forces might begin to ally with civil arms,

609
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: civilian military groups. I don't want to get too dramatic here,

610
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: but I have to say one on bleak mornings, I

611
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: sometimes wonder whether we might be returning to that period

612
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: of a hundred years ago. Yeah, I mean, you know,

613
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 1: history doesn't repeat itself, but it certainly has echoes and

614
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,959
Speaker 1: rhymes from the past. So um, you know, I think

615
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: certainly in terms of the sort of paramilitary or vigilante

616
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: forces that we see with Proud Boys or others, you know,

617
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: there are sort of obviously it's quite reminiscent of some

618
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 1: of the kind of paramilitary forces like the Clan. Although

619
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: again the Clan was, as you point out, which is

620
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 1: really important, not simply vigilante organization, right. I mean, it

621
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 1: gained political power in several different states, um, and exercise

622
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of sway in the nineteen twenties, So I

623
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: think that's really important to point out to You also

624
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: make the point in the South and the enforcement it

625
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: was obviously the targeting of black Americans, but also quite

626
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: a fair bit of targeting of poor white Americans. And

627
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: then sometimes that you know, in many of these states,

628
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: even though blacks were substantial minority of the population, you

629
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: still had poor whites in some states being a majority

630
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: of those who are getting locked up, and it reminds

631
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: me a bit of what we've seen in the last

632
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,439
Speaker 1: and fifteen years around the attacks on meth amphetamine, where

633
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,800
Speaker 1: that's large, by and large, not a black issue, especially

634
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 1: in certain parts of the country. It's a white, poor

635
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: white one, and where you see that racism is the

636
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: driving force between behind modern outcome, behind modern drug prohibition.

637
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: But that class element and that element of targeting poor

638
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 1: whites involved in illicit trade, you know, was something that

639
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 1: you know, the white establishment of the South and parts

640
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 1: of the westerner are perfectly willing to engage in. Yeah. No,

641
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: I think that there are parallels there as well. It

642
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 1: was African Americans in New South cities, but it was

643
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: also poor rural whites that ended up find jailed incarcerated

644
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: for long terms. I mean, it was as long as

645
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,240
Speaker 1: you were a marginal really the marginal violators, right, so

646
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: those who were kind of you know, having a back,

647
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: uh sort of still, but not those who could afford

648
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: the levels of protection that organized crime rings required, right,

649
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:42,240
Speaker 1: So that the problem essentially devolved on poor marginal violators, black, white,

650
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: Mexican American whatever they might be, those who were identified

651
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: already within public discourse with kind of criminality. Um, and

652
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 1: I think you can see certainly parallels with today as well.

653
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 1: So politically back then, I mean, the Republicans are sort

654
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: of the dominant party from the late nineteenth century until

655
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 1: roughly the nineteen thirty and the Democrats keep trying to

656
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: break through. Both parties are appealing to working class voters

657
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: as well as to the corporations. You know, Republicans are

658
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,760
Speaker 1: seen more as the world as the party of corporate America,

659
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: but you know, they're also identified with Lincoln and abolition

660
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 1: of slavery and things like that, and they're doing some

661
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 1: stuff they're you know, they're claiming to do in terms

662
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: of workers rights. But Al Smith, you point out in

663
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 1: the eight really begins to organize and bring to the

664
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,320
Speaker 1: voting boost for the first time millions of ethnic, recently

665
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: immigrant immigrant America's first and center generation Americans. In doing so,

666
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 1: he lands up alienating not just through his anti prohibition

667
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: centement beels because he's a Catholic. He lands up losing

668
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: some of the kind of a grarian Democrat voters, the

669
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: ones who have been more evangelical Protestant, the ones who

670
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 1: had followed William Jennings Bryan, you know, the only only

671
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 1: figure in American history ever to run for president and

672
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: lose three times as head of a major national ticket.

673
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: But then because of I guess really out the depression

674
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: more than anything else, Holes just radically changes things. And

675
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: when night as the election begins to approach in nineteen

676
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: thirty two, you have party leadership in the Democrats wary

677
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: of taking on this issue. Republicans are getting wary about

678
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: being so associated with the support for prohibition. The Democrats

679
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: were of taking it on because they still have that

680
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: Southern base. But somehow this becomes a radical swing where

681
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: millions and millions of people show up, um oftentimes motivated

682
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 1: first and foremost by the desire to repeal alcohol approbition.

683
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: And in thirty two though f DR, who's much more

684
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:40,240
Speaker 1: reluctant about repealing prohibition, finds he essentially has no choice

685
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: but to embrace it. And you see basically a fundamental

686
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: realignment happening and hardening in American politics. Um that you know,

687
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 1: changes the composition of Republican and Democratic party. So at Leasta,

688
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: just tell us more about that moment, what happened between

689
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: twenty and thirty two, and with labor and others. Well,

690
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: I mean that it is interesting at the Democratic Party

691
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 1: convention because FDR was a reluctant anti prohibitionists. He didn't

692
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: want really prohibition to be part of, you know, at

693
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 1: the core issue. But ethnic white working classmen and women

694
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 1: who had really joined the Democratic Party already by twenty

695
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 1: eight with Al Smith at the at the front of

696
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: a repeal platform, pressed the issue in thirty two, and

697
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 1: basically Roosevelt in order to get the nomination, had to

698
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,760
Speaker 1: agree to repeal being a central issue for the Democratic Party.

699
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 1: So it was that group of ethnic working class men

700
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: and women, these urban dwellers who were absolutely approsed to

701
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: prohibition because they saw it as an affront to their culture.

702
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,240
Speaker 1: They were, you know, sort of angered by the extent

703
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 1: to which they were the ones that were they felt

704
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,919
Speaker 1: were suffering under the law. Um, they saw it really

705
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: as an attack on their communities, and they model when

706
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 1: they came into politics and into the Democratic Party in

707
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: twenty eight and again in thirty two. So you see,

708
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: twenty eight is a moment really of realignment. It's the

709
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:10,879
Speaker 1: moment where these white working class men and women who

710
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: have been divided between the Republican and Democratic parties move

711
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: in to the Democratic Party in the big cities, and

712
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 1: Roosevelt consolidates that in thirty two because of basically two issues.

713
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 1: One is the Great Depression, so these people are suffering

714
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: from massive unemployment. Labor is basically arguing that something needs

715
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: to be done for the working classes. But Roosevelt's not

716
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,240
Speaker 1: yet embracing the New Deal. So what can he do.

717
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: He can declare for repeal and open up an industry

718
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 1: without increasing federal spending. He can attack the Republicans for

719
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: the extravagant spending on prohibition. So repeal becomes a very

720
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: important plank in a couple of ways. One is because

721
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 1: it draws in those white working class men and women.

722
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,720
Speaker 1: But the second one it satisfies some concern of labor

723
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 1: without going so far as to increase government spending, which

724
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: Roosevelt well then do after he's elected. But it's not

725
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: yet a central part of this platform. So there's a

726
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: kind of transitional moment there. Repeal plays an important role

727
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 1: in kind of consoliding that early New Deal coalition. Once

728
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: those men and women are part of that coalition, Roosevelt

729
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: increasingly answers some of their other concerns. Uh, and we

730
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: get really the coming of the New Deal. Yeah, I

731
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 1: think you write that. At the thirty two convention, the

732
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 1: issue repeal prohibition comes up and the party leaders are

733
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 1: still hesitant, but it gets a standing ovation for like

734
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: half an hour. It's like the number one issue, you know,

735
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 1: motivating the Democratic faithful at that point. I mean, you

736
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: have the depression going on, all of this, but somehow

737
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: repeal national prohibition is the one that gets the most

738
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: sustained applause of everything gets. It's an incredibly significant issue,

739
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 1: and I think it's really been neglected at that moment.

740
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 1: It's also really important. Hoover's in big trouble because of

741
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: the Great Depression, but he's also in big troll because

742
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: the Republican Party straddles the issue of repeal. They have

743
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 1: basically a very muddled platform that's trying to satisfy both

744
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 1: wings of the party. Those are increasingly seeing, hey, you

745
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: know what, we're in a great depression. We can't afford

746
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:18,399
Speaker 1: to spend money on on enforcing prohibition. But the other

747
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: wing of the party, these white evangelicals who are really

748
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 1: pushing for prohibition still, and Hoover, who is himself is

749
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: a big backer a prohibition really sort of those who

750
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: leave that convention argue that basically the party is going

751
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: to lose, if not on the depression, definitely on the

752
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: issue of repeal, and repeal is big enough, uh, that

753
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: the party is in big trouble. So there are Democrats

754
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: really do consolidate their support and the Republicans waffle, and

755
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 1: that matters. The Great Depression matters a good deal as well,

756
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: and one cannot forget that, of course. But the neglect

757
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: I think of prohibition issue is something that you know,

758
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: my book really tries to remedy, to look at its

759
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: significance at that critical moment. Let's take a break here

760
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: and go to an ad. There's another point you maken hear,

761
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: which is that the twenties becomes maybe the first decade

762
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: in American history where Americans become obsessed with crime. Right,

763
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: it's not just all the prohibition is violence and the

764
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 1: owl component all that, but it's labor strikes, race riots, anarchists, bombings,

765
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: automobile accidents, you know, bank robbery steps, all of this

766
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 1: sort of stuff, and governments at the federal state level

767
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 1: respond to it, not unlike they did under Nixon and

768
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: even more so under Reagan and Bush. In the eighties

769
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: and nineties with draconian legislation. So you have, on the

770
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 1: one hand, both the working class people and others getting

771
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 1: even more beaten up. Even as support for prohibition is declining,

772
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: They're getting more beaten it up by tougher laws, tougher enforcement,

773
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 1: last gas efforts. And as the other thing, which is

774
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 1: a major focus of your book, is it really it's

775
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: really about the growing empowerment of the federal state and

776
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: the punitive state, and the and the federal criminal justice bureaucracy.

777
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: So explain more about what was going on with all that. Well,

778
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 1: I mean, prior to prohibition, the federal government had a

779
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 1: relatively tiny role in crime control. It was really a

780
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: local issue, was a state issue. But in the nineties

781
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: twenties it really becomes an issue of national concern, and

782
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 1: the federal government takes on a new responsibility for crime

783
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 1: control that it has yet to relinquish. So it's really

784
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: basically federal officials leverage the kind of deep seated concerns

785
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: and the overcrime, this sort of discourse of you know,

786
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 1: the sort of rise and wave of criminality that happens,

787
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,760
Speaker 1: partly because there is a whole new class of crimes

788
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: as a result of prohibition, because there are more arrests

789
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: and there are more prosecutions, and there is this increasing

790
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: crackdown and as you mentioned your Conean legislation, so there's

791
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: a whole set of concerns and as a result, the

792
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:22,320
Speaker 1: federal government basically leverages those concerns to increase the bureaucracy,

793
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 1: to gain increased knowledge of crime and crime control, to systematize,

794
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: for example, federal crime statistics. This is the moment of

795
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: the birth of the uniform crime reports. It's the moment

796
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: of a new consolidation of power coming out of national

797
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 1: Prohibition in thirty two and thirty four with the Bureau

798
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: of Investigation, which becomes a federal Bureau of Investigation, increases

799
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 1: its purview and muscle. It's the moment when the Bureau

800
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: of Prisons is elevated to the Fed to a become

801
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 1: the Federal Bureau of Prisons, and prisons are expanded and

802
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 1: systematized and reformed at the federal level to to reduce overcrowding.

803
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: It's a it's a whole moment of a kind of

804
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: consolidation and building of the federal what I call the

805
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 1: federal penal state. And this is something which of course,

806
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: also links up to the issue that you're really concerned

807
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: about around drugs, because it's also the moment of consolidation

808
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: out of the Prohibition Bureau of a a new independent

809
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 1: Bureau of Narcotics, right uh, and the federal government, you know,

810
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 1: gets its first National Drugs Are with Harry annslinger Um,

811
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: and out of that, uh comes a whole new host

812
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 1: of legislation in the thirties, and of course the Marijuana

813
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 1: Tacks Act in the criminalization of marijuana at the federal level.

814
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: All of this kind of merges out of essentially the

815
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 1: way that the fire government leveraged this host of concerns

816
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 1: around crime and crime control, as well as the kind

817
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 1: of demise increasing demise of alcohol prohibition turning it turning

818
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 1: its muscle in a new direction toward this growing and

819
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 1: far longer lasting war on drugs. Yeah, Lisa, when I

820
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: think about the comparison to the modern day drug war,

821
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 1: I mean you point out that probably proportionally the growth

822
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: in the prison population is certainly the federal prison population

823
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 1: between nineteen the early twenties and the mid thirties was

824
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 1: probably a proportional growth comparable to what happened with the

825
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 1: modern day war on crime and drugs, where we went

826
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 1: from a half million people behind bars to you know,

827
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,959
Speaker 1: two point two million people behind bars. Now, of course,

828
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: the percent of the population incarcerated back then was much

829
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: smaller than it was in the modern day drug war, right,

830
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,720
Speaker 1: but you also make the point that something like thirty

831
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 1: percent of all the people in federal prison plus an

832
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: additional are there for alcohol prohibition violations by the time

833
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: prohibitions ending, and another twenty percent for narcotics violations. So,

834
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: you know, you think about the modern day you know,

835
00:49:57,719 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: I think about the federal prisons with the drug war.

836
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,280
Speaker 1: You know, we start off as the drug wars gaining

837
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: speed in the late eighties or the nineties, it's roughly

838
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 1: two thirds of the federal prison population of the hundred

839
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 1: thousand people are there for drug law violations. You get

840
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 1: up to today when it's half of over two hundred

841
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,280
Speaker 1: thousand people behind bars and drug love violations. So really,

842
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 1: the I mean, the focus on crime is there. But

843
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 1: as you point out, the Bureau of Prohibition Enforcement is

844
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: dramatically bigger than jayker Hoover's new FBI. The FBI dosity

845
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,720
Speaker 1: from close to competing with it in size until probably

846
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 1: World War two starts and FBI guess of ald encounter intelligence,

847
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: so that that war on alcohol and then drugs really

848
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: does drive the growth of a federal crime control establishment

849
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 1: really more than anything in American history. Yeah, at this moment.

850
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:49,240
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really the birth of a fundamentally changed

851
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: role for the federal government crime patrol and the sort

852
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 1: of building of the initial edifice, let's say, of the

853
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 1: federal penal state, which will enable that later and larger,

854
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 1: longer lasting we're on drugs. So in some ways, the

855
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 1: way I look at prohibition alcohol provision is to see

856
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: it as a kind of dress rehearsal for the later again,

857
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 1: larger and and far more let's say, quote unquote successful

858
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,240
Speaker 1: at least in terms of it's the way it has lasted,

859
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 1: uh than alcohol prohibition. Um So, but they these absolutely,

860
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: I mean I think that this is these are the

861
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 1: legacies and consequences that come out of alcohol prohibition that

862
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,240
Speaker 1: have largely been neglected. And I think really by looking

863
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 1: at that history it really helps us much better understand

864
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 1: our current moment because you really see how so not

865
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 1: not just the parallels, but the way the one led

866
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: to the other, and also the problem of Once you

867
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 1: have that edifice established, it's very difficult to go back

868
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: to ground zero. Right, So federal prohibition increased, showed the

869
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 1: muscle and power of the federal government, and we got

870
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 1: rid of alcohol prohibition. But that muscle moved forward in

871
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 1: different directions. But the federal government didn't just go back

872
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 1: to where it was in nine by far not right.

873
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 1: It grew and expanded in new directions in the way

874
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 1: right I mean obviously, you know, a lot of the

875
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: people of prohibition was driven by working class people who

876
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 1: are people in their allies, and increasingly by middle class

877
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,279
Speaker 1: people who were you know, beginning to violate prohibition and

878
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 1: just wanted the freedom to drink and that didn't have

879
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:25,919
Speaker 1: to want to be criminalized and live in fear, even

880
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: though they were much less likely to be attacked by

881
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: the police and anybody else. But you point out that

882
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 1: among the wealthy business people who had traditionally aligned with

883
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,879
Speaker 1: the Republican Party, right, some of them, you know, begin

884
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 1: increasing the line with the Democratic Party. They see prohibition

885
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 1: as a threat, and for them, they hate all these

886
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: things that everybody else hates about alcohol prohibition. But they're

887
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: also wary about the way in which is creating the

888
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:54,280
Speaker 1: big state. You focus on John Raskob right, a wealthy

889
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 1: businessman who becomes the chair of the Democratic Party I

890
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:01,760
Speaker 1: think in nineteen thirty or thirty two, and it sounds

891
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: like that's their major fear, and ultimately, you know, they

892
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 1: get pushed aside. Yes, So this is really I think

893
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 1: it's quite fascinating that that many of the opponents of

894
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: alcohol prohibition at the elite level are conservative men and

895
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 1: women who believe that this is going to crack a

896
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: kind of door open to providing new authority for the

897
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 1: government to regulate all sorts of other things, not just

898
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 1: alcohol prohibition. So that's their big concern, and overreaching federal

899
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 1: government that could potentially regulate the economy. Well, it turns out,

900
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 1: in fact they were right, because it did crack that

901
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:46,359
Speaker 1: door open. And while there was a great deal of

902
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 1: hostility among those ethnic working class men and women toward prohibition,

903
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 1: they saw that the fed that federal power was being misused,

904
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,839
Speaker 1: but they could they could turn it and hopefully use

905
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 1: that same power in a different direction. That's precisely what

906
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: they did. So essentially, those within the Democratic Party made

907
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 1: the argument these men and women that hey, look, you

908
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 1: know we have been able. We passed the eighteen Amendment.

909
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 1: The federal government did all of this. You're gonna tell

910
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 1: me that we can't pass a thirty hour a week bill.

911
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: I mean, there's sort of a ways in which they

912
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 1: saw we now have that power. We don't want it

913
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: to regulate our private lives. We want to have be

914
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: able to imbibe and to drink and have our leisure,

915
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 1: but we want to use that power and turn it

916
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 1: in a different direction. And that is precisely what happened

917
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 1: with the New Deal. So those those years, that the

918
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 1: whole decade of that debate over the scope of federal

919
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:44,760
Speaker 1: power and made the federal government visible in people's lives

920
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 1: in a fundamentally new way. And as a result, I

921
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 1: think that it contributed to the seeing the possibilities. Right,

922
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 1: there's sort of problems, but also the possibilities of utilizing

923
00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: the federal government to regulate the Economy's at those folks

924
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 1: on the elite level, like John Raskop and others. What

925
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 1: happened once repeal happened. Alcohol provision didn't just return to

926
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 1: localities right First, the idea was to regulate it, to

927
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:16,439
Speaker 1: use the federal government to regulated through the national Recovery Act,

928
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:21,879
Speaker 1: and at that moment, these conservs established the liberty lead

929
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 1: because they're so threatened by this idea that the federal

930
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: federal government is going to control the regulation of alcohol.

931
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 1: And it's only when the Supreme Court declares the n

932
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 1: r A illegal or unconstitutional that then you have the

933
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:40,799
Speaker 1: reversal of control of alcohol at the state level. But

934
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 1: it's nowhere what it was before alcohol provision, because it's

935
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:49,240
Speaker 1: really systematized at the state level and there's far more

936
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 1: kind of uh, sort of across the board forms of

937
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 1: state regulation of alcohol control that had not really existed

938
00:55:56,080 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 1: in the same way prior to prohibition. M know you. Um. Essentially,

939
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 1: FDR kind of pulls a fast one on the businessman

940
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 1: who support him, right, I mean, he's such a master

941
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,280
Speaker 1: at telling people what they want to hear. But ultimately

942
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 1: he sides with those who are the little guy on

943
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:14,840
Speaker 1: his stuff, right, and the Rascods of the world and

944
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,880
Speaker 1: the other ones, you know, SEEFDR build the big state

945
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 1: in a way that America had never had before with

946
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 1: the exception of wartime. Yes, absolutely, yeah, so, I mean FDRs,

947
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 1: I mean he's just a fascinating figure, of course, and

948
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 1: he was an experiment or a doctor. And he you know,

949
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 1: he came on board to repeal when he needed to

950
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:36,879
Speaker 1: to get that nomination um. And then when he had

951
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 1: those ethnic men and women in the Democratic Party coalition,

952
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: he listened to those voices. You know, he was willing

953
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 1: to expand the size of the state and the scope

954
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,840
Speaker 1: of the state to provide some fundamental elements of security

955
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 1: for those especially white working class men and women. Yeah,

956
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:56,240
Speaker 1: and you talk about the ways in which working class folks,

957
00:56:56,560 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: African American leaders and double a cp UH Clarence Darrow,

958
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 1: the famous kind of civil liberties lawyer in early twentieth

959
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:08,879
Speaker 1: century America. You know, they're basically saying to the federal government, well,

960
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,080
Speaker 1: if you could put all these resources behind trying to

961
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:14,400
Speaker 1: enforce futilely the eighteenth Amendment, why can't you do the

962
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 1: same with the fourth Amendment and the fourteenth Amendment and

963
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 1: the ones that would benefit us little guys? Right exactly right.

964
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 1: So again, there's the way in which that expansion of

965
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 1: how er opens the door for all of these hosts

966
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 1: of other questions of ways in which the federal government

967
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 1: should essentially back rights that it had not been earlier. Yeah.

968
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 1: So also, Lisa the Wickersham Commission. I mean, Hoover feel

969
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: it feels obliged, in the face of this crime wave

970
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 1: and discontent with prohibition to appoint this Wickersham Commission in

971
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 1: early nine nine when he becomes president. UM. But it

972
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 1: kind of blows up in his face, not unlike the

973
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:54,520
Speaker 1: way the Schaefer Commission blows up in Nixon's face UM

974
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:58,479
Speaker 1: on the drug issue forty years later. M hmm, Yeah,

975
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 1: I mean it certainly did blow up in a space

976
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 1: in the sense that, uh, you know, he had hoped

977
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 1: to appoint a commission which would show that there were

978
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 1: all sorts of problems with law enforcement. But for Hoover,

979
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: he had really wanted to improve enforcement. That was, he

980
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:17,920
Speaker 1: knew there were all sorts of problems, but his hope

981
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 1: was better enforcement will result in the success of the law.

982
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 1: Let's give it time, let's give it a chance. Like

983
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: many progressives, including Jane Adams who back Toober and twenty

984
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 1: eight precisely because he was in favor of prohibition. But

985
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 1: you know, he appoints all sorts of really very prominent

986
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: legal figures, uh and academics to this commission. It's a

987
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 1: very large scale study, UM, which points out not just

988
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 1: the problems of prohibition, but many, many different aspects of

989
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 1: the problems of the criminal justice system more broadly. That

990
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:57,440
Speaker 1: Hoover was really not expecting and it was really disappoint him.

991
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,080
Speaker 1: It was a really disappointing commission. They come out and

992
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 1: basically argue that prohibition is pretty much unenforceable. That you know,

993
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 1: they give it because it's within his purview his administration.

994
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 1: They say, let's give it some chance, but if it

995
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 1: doesn't work out, we should repeal this. And he is

996
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: totally opposed to this. Um. And basically, you know, that's

997
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 1: another that's sort of another kind of nail in the coffin, uh,

998
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 1: that that that helps to seal partially the fate of prohibition,

999
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:28,920
Speaker 1: because the recommendations are fully contradictory with a little report

1000
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: that Hoover puts out about the commission, it becomes a

1001
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:38,360
Speaker 1: disastrous kind of public relations uh, you know, campaign for

1002
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 1: the administration and for prohibition as well. UM. And so this,

1003
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 1: you know, this moment between twenty nine and thirty two

1004
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 1: is really significant for eroding the support for prohibition across

1005
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 1: the Board Commission. Right, they do come under pressure from

1006
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 1: whom and others not to outright come out for repeal, right,

1007
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 1: so they sort of pull their punches on it. In fact,

1008
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 1: it came across a funny ditty that was written by

1009
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 1: Franklin Adams in New York World, where he summed up

1010
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 1: summed up the wicker Sham's commissions about prohibition, and it

1011
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 1: goes like this prohibition is an awful flop. We like it.

1012
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 1: It can't stop, it's meant to stop. We like it.

1013
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:16,920
Speaker 1: It's left the trail of grafton slime. It don't prohibit

1014
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 1: worth the dime. It's filled our land with vice and crime. Nevertheless,

1015
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,440
Speaker 1: we're for it, you know so. But I guess it

1016
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 1: was just reflected the politics at the moment, you know.

1017
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: So at Lisa, I'll tell you something. I mean, I'll

1018
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:31,600
Speaker 1: tell you there's one other. I mean, obviously the connections

1019
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 1: and I this is just just sharing with you, my

1020
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 1: and the audience my own sort of personal um, you know, engagement.

1021
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 1: All of this is that as I was, um, you know,

1022
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 1: finishing my PhD at Harvard on international drug control and

1023
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:47,919
Speaker 1: starting to teach at Princeton, just as the drug war

1024
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 1: was heating up, and I began speaking out and for me,

1025
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 1: the prohibition analogy was central. It was something that I

1026
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 1: used as a way to relate to audiences when people

1027
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 1: were you know, entirely seized by the craziness of the

1028
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 1: war on drugs and using that as the fundamental um

1029
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 1: you know framework. Now, we didn't have an eighteenth Amendment

1030
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 1: to mobilize against right, but in fact that was the

1031
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 1: key analogy, and it was one that you know, continue

1032
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:15,920
Speaker 1: to resonate with people. We had to jump over the

1033
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 1: hoop where people would say alcohol is different, alcohols different

1034
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:21,240
Speaker 1: arcotics are fundamentally different. But in that case we could

1035
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 1: use marijuana as an example of something that was actually

1036
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 1: less dangerous in alcohol. And in that case, in fact,

1037
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:31,320
Speaker 1: that model of repealing alcohol prohibition was the one that

1038
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 1: played out very powerfully for us in the movement that

1039
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 1: we built at least repeal marijuana prohibition and to begin

1040
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 1: to roll back other aspects of the drug war. Well,

1041
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 1: and I think I think it's a it's a really

1042
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 1: um it's it's different, and yet there are so many

1043
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 1: similarities in parallels and in terms of you're right, I mean,

1044
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:52,640
Speaker 1: certainly with marijuana. Um. I think the campaign has obviously

1045
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 1: been it took a long time, but it has been

1046
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:58,440
Speaker 1: somewhat successful, but clearly still not at the at the

1047
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 1: federal level. Uh, at least in terms of, yes, we've

1048
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 1: got Joe Biden pardoning, but not in terms of you know,

1049
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:07,720
Speaker 1: sort of decriminalizing um. But yeah, but at least I'll

1050
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 1: tell you marijuana though the notion just twenty years ago

1051
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:12,960
Speaker 1: that you know, there were some quotes, you had, one

1052
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 1: quote I had. I've seen a quote by Morris Shepherd,

1053
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 1: the pro Prohibition Center from Texas, who said in nineteen

1054
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 1: thirty that the chances of eighteenth Amendment being repealed were

1055
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:22,840
Speaker 1: about the same as a humming boon, you know, you know,

1056
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 1: flying to the moon, you know, with a skyscraper on

1057
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 1: its back, and three years later in fall. And so

1058
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 1: now we tend to say, oh, ho ham, well, we

1059
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:32,760
Speaker 1: haven't quite legalized it nationally. But in fact, the notion

1060
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 1: of repealing marijuana prohibition was regarded as absolutely quixotic and

1061
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 1: almost absurd really until about twelve years ago. So it

1062
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,800
Speaker 1: was a really very It wasn't quite the rapidity with

1063
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 1: which the twenty first Amendment was passed. I mean that

1064
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:50,040
Speaker 1: happened so quickly in those last years, but it actually

1065
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 1: did happen very very quickly. And through building together coalitions

1066
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:57,840
Speaker 1: as well. Mm hmm. No, it's an excellent point, um.

1067
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 1: And but that was successful for so many years, and

1068
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:03,560
Speaker 1: it's coming apart the seems because so many of these

1069
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 1: countries that are deeply affected by you know, the sort

1070
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 1: of war on drugs are are really speaking out forcefully. Um.

1071
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 1: And that also is you know, sort of part of

1072
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 1: an important transnational coalition building to dismantle the that war

1073
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:21,760
Speaker 1: on drugs as well. Yeah, I mean, the U S

1074
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 1: did try infect It was part of Harry Anslinker's job

1075
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 1: in the late twenties. His heead of the Foreign Control

1076
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:29,120
Speaker 1: section of the Bureau Prohibition to try to create some

1077
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,280
Speaker 1: sort of nascent international arrangement, and he was successful in

1078
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:34,880
Speaker 1: getting treaties with about a dozen countries in the mostly

1079
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 1: in the western hemisphere of the Caribbean and elsewhere. But

1080
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:40,920
Speaker 1: ultimately it was a futile, failed effort. But obviously he

1081
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 1: was a lot more successful in playing a key leading

1082
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:46,720
Speaker 1: role in building the global drug prohibition regime between nineteen

1083
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 1: thirty and when he finally left office in the early

1084
01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. Right. Well, listen, Lisa, I've loved this conversation

1085
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 1: with you. I loved your book for our listeners. Lisa

1086
01:03:57,240 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 1: mcgurre Harvard is story in the book The War on Alcohol.

1087
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 1: If you want the one go to book to read

1088
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 1: about alcohol prohibition, that's the one to get. So, Lisa,

1089
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:10,120
Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking us time to speak

1090
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:12,800
Speaker 1: with me and my listeners, and uh, best of luck

1091
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 1: on your future endeavors. Thanks so much, it's been a

1092
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 1: real pleasure and a great conversation. Take care, Ethan. Thanks again.

1093
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it,

1094
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 1: or you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts

1095
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,720
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear

1096
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:37,840
Speaker 1: from our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories,

1097
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:41,040
Speaker 1: comments and ideas, then leave us a message at one

1098
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 1: eight three three seven seven nine sixty that's eight three

1099
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 1: three psycho zero, or you can email us at Psychoactive

1100
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:54,520
Speaker 1: at protozoa dot com, or find me on Twitter at

1101
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:57,920
Speaker 1: Ethan natal Man. You can also find contact information in

1102
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:01,479
Speaker 1: our show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart

1103
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 1: Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman.

1104
01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:09,680
Speaker 1: It's produced by Noam Osband and Josh Stain. The executive

1105
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:13,920
Speaker 1: producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren

1106
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 1: Aronofsky from Protozoma Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from

1107
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 1: My Heart Radio, and me Ethan Naedelman. Our music is

1108
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 1: by Ari Blucien and a special thanks to Avi Brios,

1109
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:39,440
Speaker 1: f Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Deep. Next week we'll be

1110
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 1: bringing you a bonus episode. It's me being interviewed by

1111
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:48,360
Speaker 1: my friend gian Carlo conna Vestio about my own psychedelic experiences.

1112
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:52,520
Speaker 1: It's for his podcast on Mango TV, in a series

1113
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:57,439
Speaker 1: called Psychedelic Confessions. Subscribe to Psychoactive now see it, don't

1114
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 1: miss it.