WEBVTT - Against the Rules Presents: Michael Lewis in Conversation with Malcolm Gladwell and Jacob Weisberg 0:00:15.276 --> 0:00:23.956 Pushkin. Hi everyone, it's Michael Lewis. I'm very proud and 0:00:24.036 --> 0:00:26.756 honored to present you this bonus episode, which is part 0:00:26.796 --> 0:00:31.876 of Dell Technologies Small Business Podfrints. So we know how 0:00:31.876 --> 0:00:34.396 many small businesses are now grappling with the impact of 0:00:34.436 --> 0:00:38.076 these uncertain times and looking for resources. But a lot 0:00:38.076 --> 0:00:40.996 of the conferences where people trade ideas, those are canceled 0:00:41.036 --> 0:00:44.636 right now. So Dell Technologies has organized something they're calling 0:00:44.876 --> 0:00:49.156 a pod Frints for small business owners, like a virtual 0:00:49.196 --> 0:00:53.276 conference to share advice in some inspiration. Dell Technologies is 0:00:53.396 --> 0:00:56.036 here to help you through these times, from keeping you 0:00:56.116 --> 0:00:59.676 connected and productive while working remotely with Windows ten in 0:00:59.756 --> 0:01:03.516 Microsoft teams, to providing relevant content to help your business. 0:01:04.036 --> 0:01:09.116 To find more participating podcasts search Dell Technology, Small Business 0:01:09.356 --> 0:01:14.156 pot ferns on Radio, dot Com, Spotify or Apple Podcasts. 0:01:14.276 --> 0:01:18.996 At the end of this episode, I was asked to 0:01:19.036 --> 0:01:21.876 moderate a panel with two of my oldest friends, Malcolm 0:01:21.876 --> 0:01:24.956 Gladwell and Jacob Weisberg. We've known each other since the 0:01:25.036 --> 0:01:27.196 nineteen eighties when we were all young writers in the 0:01:27.236 --> 0:01:30.836 magazine business. Malcolm and Jacob are now the co founders 0:01:30.836 --> 0:01:34.756 of Pushkin Industries, the company that produces Against the Rules, 0:01:35.476 --> 0:01:39.076 which is now underway. By the way, Pushkin also makes 0:01:39.076 --> 0:01:41.596 a bunch of other great shows, like Malcolm's own Revisionist 0:01:41.716 --> 0:01:46.156 History and The Happiness Lab with doctor Laurie Santos. I've 0:01:46.156 --> 0:01:48.876 been watching on the sidelines over the past year as 0:01:48.916 --> 0:01:51.756 Malcolm and Jacob started the company, so I was really 0:01:51.836 --> 0:01:54.396 happy to have an excuse to ask them all kinds 0:01:54.396 --> 0:01:56.876 of nosy questions about what they've learned about running a 0:01:56.916 --> 0:02:01.196 business together and the challenges they face, and the challenges 0:02:01.436 --> 0:02:05.236 right now in our quarantine world. Well, those are unique. 0:02:05.636 --> 0:02:08.076 You'll get to hear a little bit about that. Here's 0:02:08.076 --> 0:02:11.756 our conversation, all right. So, because I don't actually know 0:02:11.836 --> 0:02:14.396 the story, so I would love to know how you 0:02:14.476 --> 0:02:18.436 decided to start Pushkin, Jacob, right, it was Jacob's doing. 0:02:18.956 --> 0:02:23.436 How do you start? Well, I'd started one podcast company already, 0:02:23.476 --> 0:02:27.076 which was Panoply, which came out of Slate, but as 0:02:27.556 --> 0:02:32.036 things evolved, Panoply turned into a technology company. I thought 0:02:32.076 --> 0:02:35.436 I was starting mainly a content company, and one of 0:02:35.436 --> 0:02:39.516 the shows we'd started was Revisionist History with Malcolm. That 0:02:39.596 --> 0:02:42.236 show was doing really well, and there were some other 0:02:42.276 --> 0:02:45.756 shows I was really interested in doing, so it was 0:02:45.796 --> 0:02:49.676 sort of when the earlier company under a CEO i'd 0:02:49.756 --> 0:02:52.236 hired who I thought was making a good decision, wanted 0:02:52.276 --> 0:02:54.996 to make a pivot that I said, Hey, maybe it's 0:02:55.076 --> 0:02:57.636 time that Malcolm and I started our own company and 0:02:58.076 --> 0:03:00.116 only do what we want to do. I was on 0:03:00.196 --> 0:03:06.876 holiday with my family in I can't remember where. I 0:03:06.996 --> 0:03:09.676 was somewhere in Europe, Italy, in Italy, and Jacob was 0:03:09.716 --> 0:03:12.756 in some I think, if I can tell the truth, 0:03:13.116 --> 0:03:18.956 A truly horrible house in a village, he said, and 0:03:19.076 --> 0:03:23.716 he said, uh. He said that. He summoned me and 0:03:23.836 --> 0:03:26.516 said there's something crucial we need to talk about. So 0:03:26.596 --> 0:03:29.956 I was like, I, you know, drove halfway across Italy, 0:03:30.436 --> 0:03:33.996 show up in this horrible house by the road, and 0:03:34.036 --> 0:03:37.636 then he like sat outside of little chairs and had 0:03:37.636 --> 0:03:39.316 coffee and he said, I want to start a company. 0:03:39.516 --> 0:03:43.996 That's how it began. What did you say, yes right away? Yeah? 0:03:43.996 --> 0:03:46.796 It struck me as well. The backstory about this is 0:03:46.796 --> 0:03:50.556 that Jacob has been I've known Jacob for thirty five years, 0:03:50.676 --> 0:03:54.116 and through for some significant portion of this, I would 0:03:54.116 --> 0:03:56.796 always say that Jacob, I don't know why you wanted 0:03:56.796 --> 0:03:59.836 to be a journalist. You would be a really great businessman. 0:03:59.876 --> 0:04:02.076 If you just became a businessman, you would you could 0:04:02.116 --> 0:04:03.716 make a huge amount of money and you could all 0:04:03.756 --> 0:04:06.076 get rich. Jacob may have forgotten this, but I would. 0:04:06.316 --> 0:04:08.556 I would always worried that if I when I said that, 0:04:08.596 --> 0:04:11.396 I was insulting him because what he really wanted to 0:04:11.396 --> 0:04:13.156 be was a writer, which I was saying it was 0:04:13.156 --> 0:04:15.596 a bad writer, saying I thought it'd be an even 0:04:15.676 --> 0:04:20.116 better businessman. So I remember you saying this thirty years ago. 0:04:21.196 --> 0:04:24.836 And so Jake is a wonderful journalist, but I agreed 0:04:25.276 --> 0:04:27.716 that he's sort of a natural for this sort of thing. 0:04:28.076 --> 0:04:30.036 He's got the temperament for it, unlike you or I. 0:04:30.996 --> 0:04:33.116 But you know what, it would surprised me the thing 0:04:33.156 --> 0:04:35.196 that to take you back even a little further. It 0:04:35.316 --> 0:04:37.636 surprised me that you two went off on this podcast 0:04:37.716 --> 0:04:40.356 Jag in the first place. You both had very happy, 0:04:40.436 --> 0:04:45.076 successful careers in the print world. Why did you decide 0:04:45.156 --> 0:04:48.396 that you wanted to do something different? You know, Michael, 0:04:48.436 --> 0:04:51.036 I'd gotten the bug really In the early days of 0:04:51.076 --> 0:04:54.676 podcasting at Slate were sort of because of a random 0:04:54.716 --> 0:04:57.836 connection with an NPR show Slate had been working on. 0:04:58.276 --> 0:05:01.556 We started making some of the first podcasts anybody listened to, 0:05:02.076 --> 0:05:05.396 and everybody at Slate, all the journalists loved doing them. 0:05:05.756 --> 0:05:08.476 And there was this little audience, small at first but 0:05:08.636 --> 0:05:11.916 growing that just love them. And the giveaway was that 0:05:11.996 --> 0:05:15.276 everybody at Slade who didn't have a podcast wanted a 0:05:15.316 --> 0:05:18.636 podcast and they were just a joy to do. So, 0:05:18.956 --> 0:05:21.476 you know, I'm a little evangelical about things I get 0:05:21.476 --> 0:05:25.156 excited about. And I tried to talk Malcolm into doing one, 0:05:25.196 --> 0:05:27.636 and I tried to talk you into doing one, and 0:05:27.876 --> 0:05:29.916 I ultimately talked both of you into doing it. I 0:05:29.916 --> 0:05:33.516 talked Malcolm into it first, and then I think the 0:05:33.556 --> 0:05:35.076 fact that he was doing it may have helped to 0:05:35.116 --> 0:05:38.236 persuade you. It was worse than that. You got Malcolm 0:05:38.276 --> 0:05:42.356 to a lie to me and say it was easy. 0:05:42.436 --> 0:05:45.236 You lied, But that's all right. Well I forgive you. 0:05:45.636 --> 0:05:49.636 So you two old friends go into business together. How's 0:05:49.636 --> 0:05:51.716 it working out? Like? How do you find working with 0:05:51.756 --> 0:05:54.516 each other? Are you surprised by anything? You finding things 0:05:54.556 --> 0:05:56.156 out about each other that you didn't know that you 0:05:56.396 --> 0:05:59.996 wish you didn't know. Well, I am reminded of a 0:06:01.196 --> 0:06:03.676 years ago I wrote a piece that was really about 0:06:03.716 --> 0:06:06.756 my friendship with Jacob, and it was about the idea 0:06:06.836 --> 0:06:12.436 that what's called elected memory, which is that we outsource 0:06:12.516 --> 0:06:14.516 a lot of the things we know to our friends 0:06:14.556 --> 0:06:17.676 and family. And I was writing about this in The 0:06:17.676 --> 0:06:20.076 Because of Jacob to say that Jacob is someone who 0:06:20.116 --> 0:06:23.196 I respect and trust so much that significant parts of 0:06:23.236 --> 0:06:27.316 my knowledge and cognition are simply outsourced to Jacob. I 0:06:27.356 --> 0:06:30.756 was saying that I no longer read anything about politics 0:06:30.876 --> 0:06:33.476 or try and figure anything about politics. I simply asked 0:06:33.556 --> 0:06:37.156 Jacob what he thinks and adopt those ideas as my own. 0:06:37.596 --> 0:06:39.996 That was my position, and I was sort of a joke, 0:06:40.076 --> 0:06:43.316 but it's actually true. It's just a way better way 0:06:43.356 --> 0:06:46.516 to live your life to make to appoint sort of 0:06:46.556 --> 0:06:50.476 experts in your friendship circle and outsource everything to them. 0:06:50.476 --> 0:06:52.476 I do the same thing with my brother and wine, 0:06:52.516 --> 0:06:55.356 and you know, you make a long list. So this 0:06:55.516 --> 0:07:00.076 is in business. I've just applied this principle, which is 0:07:00.116 --> 0:07:02.916 I just let him do all the things that I 0:07:03.036 --> 0:07:05.636 know he's better at than me. And since that's a rat, 0:07:05.756 --> 0:07:08.876 a long list means my life is very easy. So 0:07:09.596 --> 0:07:12.436 there is that true, Jacob, is there? No? Are you 0:07:12.476 --> 0:07:16.156 basically running the business in Malcolm's decoration? Um? No, I 0:07:16.196 --> 0:07:18.556 wouldn't say that, I mean I I handle more of 0:07:18.596 --> 0:07:21.516 the day to day, as they say, but honestly, at 0:07:21.516 --> 0:07:23.796 this point more of the ideas come from Malcolm. And 0:07:23.836 --> 0:07:26.196 that's that's a bit of an adjustment because I've always 0:07:26.236 --> 0:07:29.116 thought of myself as the idea person. But I'm like 0:07:29.156 --> 0:07:31.996 a you know, a good idea weak person. Malcolm's like 0:07:32.076 --> 0:07:35.396 a five good idea day person. And so a big 0:07:35.476 --> 0:07:39.436 part of my job now is just like being Malcolm's 0:07:39.436 --> 0:07:41.876 filter to try to talk him out of some of 0:07:41.876 --> 0:07:44.596 the ideas and then try to figure out how some 0:07:44.636 --> 0:07:48.516 of the others can can happen. But these are ideas 0:07:48.516 --> 0:07:51.116 for shows, These are ideas for shows, these are ideas 0:07:51.116 --> 0:07:53.556 for new businesses. Malcolm has a lot of ideas. And 0:07:53.596 --> 0:07:57.796 the typical day is, you know, at about eleven am, 0:07:57.996 --> 0:08:00.916 he'll call me and say, this is so much fun. 0:08:01.036 --> 0:08:02.956 We really don't want to get too big too fast. 0:08:03.036 --> 0:08:05.276 Let's keep it just like it is. And I say, yeah, Malcolm, 0:08:05.316 --> 0:08:07.036 I totally agree with that. This is the good part. 0:08:07.116 --> 0:08:09.956 Let's let's not grow too fast. And then after lunch 0:08:09.996 --> 0:08:11.876 he'll call me and he say, all right, I've got 0:08:12.076 --> 0:08:15.836 three ideas, and each of them would involve like adding 0:08:15.916 --> 0:08:18.636 like ten new staff members, and so if we did, 0:08:18.716 --> 0:08:20.436 if we pursued all of our ideas, we'd have six 0:08:20.556 --> 0:08:24.156 hundred people right now instead of twenty five. And you know, 0:08:24.236 --> 0:08:26.316 that's kind of a tension, and it's not a tension 0:08:26.356 --> 0:08:28.636 in that Malcolm and I disagree about it. I think 0:08:28.676 --> 0:08:31.996 we're both pulled in both directions. Liking having a small 0:08:32.036 --> 0:08:35.116 business where we know everybody and it's sort of close 0:08:35.236 --> 0:08:38.596 like a family, and we control everything. But then all 0:08:38.596 --> 0:08:41.316 this opportunity and all these good ideas we want to pursue. 0:08:42.516 --> 0:08:44.796 I'm in these conversations. Are you able to see the 0:08:44.836 --> 0:08:48.076 possibility of a really big business or you think it's 0:08:48.156 --> 0:08:51.036 naturally better as a small business. You've hit on the 0:08:51.316 --> 0:08:53.156 hard part, you know. I think we see that, we 0:08:53.236 --> 0:08:55.196 do see the opportunity to be big. I mean, I'm 0:08:55.236 --> 0:08:56.836 gonna you know, when you say really big, I mean 0:08:57.076 --> 0:08:58.756 it's not. I don't think it's I don't think it's 0:08:58.836 --> 0:09:01.676 Google big. I don't think it's Facebook big. But in 0:09:01.716 --> 0:09:04.796 the world of podcasting, I think it has the potential 0:09:05.076 --> 0:09:09.796 to be really pace setting and dominant. But we also 0:09:09.876 --> 0:09:13.276 want to be really, really choosy and have everything we 0:09:13.316 --> 0:09:17.076 make really represent what we're interested in. And the quality 0:09:17.156 --> 0:09:20.196 level we've set so far. So you know, I think 0:09:20.196 --> 0:09:22.436 it's just the kind of working out of those two 0:09:22.516 --> 0:09:25.436 things will result in the right size. I honestly don't 0:09:25.476 --> 0:09:27.516 know what the right size is. We're going to get bigger. 0:09:27.516 --> 0:09:29.556 It's just a question of how fast we're going to 0:09:29.596 --> 0:09:33.516 get bigger. Malcolm, Yeah, I think what occurred to I 0:09:33.556 --> 0:09:38.556 think all of us very quickly in this project experiment 0:09:39.116 --> 0:09:44.036 is that we're not really in the podcast business. We're 0:09:44.916 --> 0:09:47.996 you know, it's a cliche. We're in the storytelling business, 0:09:47.996 --> 0:09:50.316 and we happen to want to tell stories to audio. 0:09:50.756 --> 0:09:54.036 But that means you can compete against all kinds of 0:09:54.436 --> 0:09:57.516 like we we there's no reason why we can't behave 0:09:57.596 --> 0:10:00.876 like a book publisher in many respects. It's just that 0:10:00.916 --> 0:10:04.876 our books are on our audio, not on the page. 0:10:05.236 --> 0:10:07.836 But once you realize that, well, look at book publishers. 0:10:07.876 --> 0:10:10.716 They're really big. I mean they have thousands of employees 0:10:10.756 --> 0:10:13.796 they have, so, you know, concede that way. If you've 0:10:13.796 --> 0:10:15.716 only think of yourself as being in the podcast world, 0:10:15.716 --> 0:10:18.556 you might think of yourself as being pretty small. But 0:10:18.596 --> 0:10:20.956 if you think of yourself as just as using a 0:10:20.956 --> 0:10:23.876 different medium to tell stories, then there's no reason why 0:10:23.916 --> 0:10:27.676 you can't be really big. So to all appearances, this 0:10:27.716 --> 0:10:30.396 thing has been an incredible success, and it's been really 0:10:30.436 --> 0:10:33.916 fun to make a podcast for you. I'm curious with 0:10:34.076 --> 0:10:39.996 troubles you've had, especially like given the pandemic, how you've 0:10:39.996 --> 0:10:44.556 had to adjust and respond and how much difficulty it's 0:10:44.556 --> 0:10:48.276 introduced into your business. Well, we've all been improvising in 0:10:48.356 --> 0:10:50.716 various ways. I think we feel very lucky and that 0:10:51.516 --> 0:10:56.956 what we make is makeable under these circumstances. People set 0:10:56.996 --> 0:11:00.836 up recording studios at home and we have meetings virtually. 0:11:00.956 --> 0:11:02.876 I don't know that we could have done this with 0:11:02.956 --> 0:11:06.716 the digital tools that existed ten or fifteen years ago. 0:11:06.876 --> 0:11:13.316 I mean, things like Zoom and Slack and Google hangouts 0:11:13.396 --> 0:11:18.556 and share drives um seem so essential to long distance collaboration. 0:11:18.756 --> 0:11:21.076 I mean, in a way, they've arrived just in time, 0:11:21.116 --> 0:11:23.916 and it's sort of the moment for those tools. But 0:11:24.036 --> 0:11:26.636 we can make our shows, and luckily we work with 0:11:26.676 --> 0:11:30.316 writers of a caliber, starting with you and Malcolm, who 0:11:30.356 --> 0:11:33.396 can use their writing to adapt what they're doing. If 0:11:33.396 --> 0:11:35.036 there's an interview that you were going to do for 0:11:35.076 --> 0:11:37.716 your season this year, Michael and you can't do it, 0:11:38.036 --> 0:11:40.356 you can write your way out of it. Um, that's 0:11:40.396 --> 0:11:43.556 not a position a TV producer as usually in. I mean, 0:11:43.596 --> 0:11:46.476 if you have physical production that requires people to be 0:11:46.556 --> 0:11:48.956 in a group in a place, it's just got to 0:11:48.956 --> 0:11:51.796 be suspended. Podcast. We can we can still make it. 0:11:51.796 --> 0:11:55.356 It's not all been easy, but people have been incredibly 0:11:55.436 --> 0:11:57.836 flexible and nimble about how we're still going to get 0:11:57.876 --> 0:12:01.196 these shows done with this new challenge. So it's funny. 0:12:01.236 --> 0:12:04.796 I'm about to I've got five of my seven episodes 0:12:04.876 --> 0:12:08.356 for this the second season done, but I've got I've 0:12:08.396 --> 0:12:12.876 got one really did require me, I thought, require me 0:12:12.956 --> 0:12:14.636 to go out onto the road, and I'm not able 0:12:14.676 --> 0:12:16.796 to do it. And you said to me, you know 0:12:17.036 --> 0:12:19.436 you can write your way around this. And this weekend 0:12:19.476 --> 0:12:22.716 I'm about to find out whether I had and and 0:12:22.756 --> 0:12:24.916 I'm kind of wondering if you think that's really true. 0:12:24.996 --> 0:12:27.876 I mean, what do you think. What I'm thinking is 0:12:27.916 --> 0:12:31.756 just generally, when you're throwing this kind of this kind 0:12:31.796 --> 0:12:34.596 of curveball, you look curveball and you hit it that 0:12:34.676 --> 0:12:36.476 you that you try to just turn it into a 0:12:36.596 --> 0:12:40.836 strength and you see what you can do given that 0:12:41.076 --> 0:12:44.076 given the constraint. But but there's a part of me thinks, 0:12:44.236 --> 0:12:47.756 you know, I hear in my voice the podcast producer saying, 0:12:47.796 --> 0:12:51.076 we need scenes, we need scenes, and now you can't 0:12:51.116 --> 0:12:55.236 really get those scenes. Does it? Does it trouble Does 0:12:55.276 --> 0:12:57.076 that trouble you at all? You think, oh, maybe these 0:12:57.076 --> 0:13:00.396 could be better this way. Well, I tend to share 0:13:00.436 --> 0:13:03.796 your view that the constraint provokes creativity and that you 0:13:03.876 --> 0:13:06.196 often end up with something that's better and more interesting 0:13:06.196 --> 0:13:08.516 than what you would have had otherwise, but not always. 0:13:08.796 --> 0:13:11.716 You know. Luckily, I think for a number of our shows, 0:13:11.756 --> 0:13:14.596 we had a lot of the field reporting the interviews 0:13:14.676 --> 0:13:17.156 under our belt, and so we're more at risk of 0:13:17.276 --> 0:13:20.436 losing like twenty percent of what we wanted. If we 0:13:20.436 --> 0:13:22.716 hadn't done any then it would be harder to make 0:13:22.756 --> 0:13:24.676 those shows. You'd have to conceive them in a different 0:13:24.676 --> 0:13:29.236 way if they're dependent on vivid scenes. Where were you 0:13:29.356 --> 0:13:32.756 as the journalist is physically present. Do you think it's 0:13:32.756 --> 0:13:35.156 going to change the way when this is over and 0:13:35.156 --> 0:13:36.716 you can go back to doing it the old way. 0:13:36.796 --> 0:13:38.196 You think you'll go back to doing it the old way? 0:13:38.236 --> 0:13:39.796 You think you actually learned things that you're going to 0:13:40.236 --> 0:13:46.636 you're gonna work into your into your routine. Well, my my, 0:13:46.636 --> 0:13:50.956 my big goal. And at one of our earliest meetings, 0:13:51.276 --> 0:13:54.396 we had a retreat very early on at Pushkin, we 0:13:54.516 --> 0:13:55.996 sort of sat down and tried to figure out what 0:13:56.036 --> 0:13:59.316 are the principles that we believe in as a company. 0:13:59.716 --> 0:14:03.676 Sounds very pretentious, it actually wasn't. And the one I 0:14:03.756 --> 0:14:07.236 was encouraging how people to accept was we did was 0:14:07.596 --> 0:14:09.836 that we should always remember that this ship be above 0:14:09.876 --> 0:14:14.756 all else fun. If we're not having fun, we shouldn't 0:14:14.756 --> 0:14:17.276 do it. It shouldn't be drudgery. And so I always 0:14:17.276 --> 0:14:19.676 think about my big worry when all the lockdown happened 0:14:19.756 --> 0:14:22.276 was will it still be fun if we're all working 0:14:22.316 --> 0:14:25.196 from home and we can't hang out with this sort 0:14:25.196 --> 0:14:29.556 of wonderful collection of and I think this is in 0:14:29.596 --> 0:14:32.516 the best way misfits and weirdos that we have gathered 0:14:32.796 --> 0:14:37.876 to many podcasts, and I number myself among them. So 0:14:38.156 --> 0:14:39.716 I was like, well, I can't hang out with these 0:14:39.716 --> 0:14:42.476 delight for weirdos anymore? Is this not going to be fun? 0:14:42.756 --> 0:14:46.636 And so I think what's happened is that we've just 0:14:46.756 --> 0:14:50.636 discovered new ways to hang out. My senses, we're building 0:14:50.636 --> 0:14:54.476 a new muscle, and that or that we're kind of 0:14:55.476 --> 0:14:58.796 a resilience so that you kind of know you can 0:14:58.836 --> 0:15:00.876 do it. Knowing you can do it in another way 0:15:01.276 --> 0:15:07.356 is enormously freeing. We'll be right back. As I mentioned earlier, 0:15:07.396 --> 0:15:09.956 this episode is just one of many po podcasts included 0:15:09.996 --> 0:15:14.116 in the Small Business Podfrints presented by Dell Technologies, a 0:15:14.236 --> 0:15:19.516 podcast conference to get inspiration on topics like fundraising, building teams, 0:15:20.356 --> 0:15:23.556 or managing a business in our current environment from top 0:15:23.596 --> 0:15:27.716 podcasts like Against the Rules with Me Michael Lewis, Rise 0:15:27.836 --> 0:15:31.316 with Rachel Hollis and Rhet and Link from ear Biscuits. 0:15:31.876 --> 0:15:36.716 For the complete lineup of episodes, visit Dell Technologies Podfrints 0:15:36.956 --> 0:15:42.676 dot com. Welcome back. Here's more of my conversation with 0:15:42.796 --> 0:15:47.836 Jacob Weisberg and Malcolm Gladwell from Pushkin Industries. Michael, I 0:15:47.836 --> 0:15:50.596 think there are two big impacts I've been thinking about 0:15:50.636 --> 0:15:52.996 on the company. One's cultural and one is more sort 0:15:52.996 --> 0:15:56.676 of substantive around what we make. But the cultural point 0:15:56.916 --> 0:15:59.996 is that a company like ours, people are really close 0:15:59.996 --> 0:16:04.196 and they get very close making creative work together. And 0:16:04.396 --> 0:16:07.196 we had just moved into this new office in New York, 0:16:07.276 --> 0:16:10.156 like literally a week before or it was closed, and 0:16:10.196 --> 0:16:13.196 we all had to work from home and be socially 0:16:13.236 --> 0:16:17.316 isolated or physically isolated. And that was a bummer. I mean, 0:16:17.356 --> 0:16:20.156 we were this office is really great and like everybody 0:16:20.236 --> 0:16:22.996 was really excited to be there. It's clean, it's new, 0:16:23.156 --> 0:16:25.236 there was really good coffee. Like we couldn't wait to 0:16:25.276 --> 0:16:27.116 get to work and see each other in the morning. 0:16:27.196 --> 0:16:28.956 Those of us through in New York, which is most 0:16:28.956 --> 0:16:33.076 of the staff, and suddenly that's denied to us. Everybody's 0:16:33.196 --> 0:16:36.796 worried about everybody. Everybody's got a whole new set of problems. 0:16:36.796 --> 0:16:39.076 People have to figure out how to take care of 0:16:39.076 --> 0:16:42.276 their kids, homeschool their kids, worry about their parents. Some 0:16:42.316 --> 0:16:45.796 people are feeling physical symptoms, are people getting sick. So 0:16:45.916 --> 0:16:50.116 you have suddenly, instead of this kind of convening, you're 0:16:50.316 --> 0:16:56.756 separated and worried. And the observed, the cultural observation is 0:16:56.796 --> 0:17:02.516 that people then become really habituated to and really enjoy 0:17:02.596 --> 0:17:05.716 in a way, the forms of digital connection. Having a 0:17:05.916 --> 0:17:08.876 zoom meeting once a week where everybody's on it. You 0:17:09.276 --> 0:17:11.996 see where everybody is and you see the backdrops. And 0:17:12.396 --> 0:17:15.916 one of our employees, Sophie mckibbon, is up up in 0:17:16.636 --> 0:17:18.596 New Hampshire and she, you know, she calls in from 0:17:18.636 --> 0:17:20.836 her car because that's where she gets the best phone connection. 0:17:20.876 --> 0:17:22.556 You see her in her car, and you see people 0:17:22.636 --> 0:17:25.156 in their apartments, some of them have kids running in 0:17:25.156 --> 0:17:28.516 and out of the frame, and it's just I'd look 0:17:28.556 --> 0:17:30.636 forward to that so much, just seeing everybody, and I 0:17:30.716 --> 0:17:34.236 think other people are having the same feeling. And as 0:17:34.476 --> 0:17:37.236 you know, Ceo, I just feel so grateful to these 0:17:37.276 --> 0:17:40.116 people who've got all this stuff they're having to deal 0:17:40.156 --> 0:17:44.476 with in their lives that they weren't expecting. But they're 0:17:44.476 --> 0:17:46.676 you know, but they're doing their best work at the 0:17:46.716 --> 0:17:48.596 same time, and I think that's partly because work is 0:17:48.636 --> 0:17:52.316 a refuge in a situation like this. So, Jacob, I 0:17:52.356 --> 0:17:54.476 have a question for you. You spent most of your 0:17:54.476 --> 0:17:57.756 life sympathetic to and surrounded by and being one of 0:17:57.796 --> 0:18:01.956 them kind of journalists who never have to take any 0:18:01.956 --> 0:18:08.996 responsibility for anything, and you've managed to become pretty naturally 0:18:09.636 --> 0:18:12.516 like an executive, like a person who runs a thing, 0:18:12.836 --> 0:18:16.676 and sounds like you just sounded uh and like like 0:18:16.836 --> 0:18:21.516 you could be secretary of the Treasury um. And I'm 0:18:21.596 --> 0:18:25.556 wondering where you pick this up, Like are you reading 0:18:25.636 --> 0:18:27.276 on the sly like in the middle of the night 0:18:27.316 --> 0:18:30.556 reading these horrible corporate management books or are you do 0:18:30.556 --> 0:18:33.276 you have some little secret source of wisdom you go to? 0:18:33.756 --> 0:18:35.556 How did you figure out how to do this? How 0:18:35.596 --> 0:18:38.076 to run a business? Uh? You know, I think I 0:18:38.236 --> 0:18:42.356 was watching people uh do it, And I think i've 0:18:42.356 --> 0:18:44.116 you know, learned a lot from people who weren't so 0:18:44.156 --> 0:18:45.796 good at it, as well as from people who are 0:18:45.876 --> 0:18:47.836 who are really good at it. But you know, Michael, 0:18:47.876 --> 0:18:50.556 I was always just really interested in this problem of 0:18:50.676 --> 0:18:54.916 how you could pay for high quality journalism or media. 0:18:55.716 --> 0:18:57.956 We both came out of the magazine world, and it 0:18:58.076 --> 0:19:01.476 was just this fundamental issue, even before the Internet and 0:19:01.596 --> 0:19:03.676 things got challenging. You know, it was how do you 0:19:03.756 --> 0:19:06.436 how do you make money on magazine journalism where someone 0:19:06.516 --> 0:19:10.436 spends months doing a story. And I sort of went 0:19:10.556 --> 0:19:13.556 from being interested in that problem to kind of taking 0:19:13.596 --> 0:19:16.076 on the problem when I was at Slate, and as 0:19:16.156 --> 0:19:18.876 part of that, we ended up selling Slate and I 0:19:19.036 --> 0:19:22.196 ended up being responsible for it. And it was an evolution, 0:19:22.396 --> 0:19:26.156 but I did go kind of in stages from being 0:19:26.196 --> 0:19:29.596 a full time writer editor to being the head of 0:19:29.636 --> 0:19:31.796 the business. And I don't know, I think, you know, 0:19:31.876 --> 0:19:35.556 I think you've both reflected in this conversation that it's 0:19:35.596 --> 0:19:37.596 fun to try new stuff when you're in your fifties. 0:19:37.636 --> 0:19:39.196 A lot of people in their fifties don't get to 0:19:39.196 --> 0:19:41.196 do that. People just want them to keep doing the 0:19:41.236 --> 0:19:43.276 same thing they've been doing. So if you get an 0:19:43.276 --> 0:19:46.916 opportunity to try something new at this stage of life, 0:19:47.236 --> 0:19:49.436 you can jump at it, and you should jump at it. 0:19:49.476 --> 0:19:54.036 And for me, that's the business stuff, Malcolm, I hope 0:19:54.076 --> 0:19:56.876 you feel this way. It's weirdly still fun. I feel 0:19:56.876 --> 0:19:59.916 a little guilty about it being fun now because I 0:20:00.076 --> 0:20:03.116 know how not fun the world is and businesses for 0:20:03.596 --> 0:20:07.876 a lot of people. But it's just seeing how we've 0:20:07.956 --> 0:20:12.316 hired incredible people and seeing their resilience and how they've 0:20:12.356 --> 0:20:16.476 adapted to it. Um, you know, it's um, it's it's 0:20:16.596 --> 0:20:20.156 kind of a joy and um it's uh. It would 0:20:20.196 --> 0:20:22.716 be a very different story if it wasn't working. But 0:20:22.836 --> 0:20:25.156 it feels like we're going to get through it, and 0:20:25.476 --> 0:20:27.676 it's I feel pretty good about it at the moment. 0:20:27.956 --> 0:20:32.116 All right. So, uh, you guys, to my eyes, you 0:20:32.116 --> 0:20:34.676 guys have never had a spat or a disagreement, but 0:20:34.756 --> 0:20:36.356 maybe you have and you've got it since you've gone 0:20:36.356 --> 0:20:39.356 into business together. Uh have you have there been any 0:20:39.356 --> 0:20:43.636 sources of a disagreement. Well, if anybody's thinking about doing this, 0:20:44.076 --> 0:20:46.636 it is it is riskier in a slightly different way 0:20:46.716 --> 0:20:49.996 starting a business with your best friend. There's there's a 0:20:50.036 --> 0:20:54.356 lot more upside because that's it's a delight to do it, um. 0:20:54.596 --> 0:20:58.036 But you know, it's who gets to decide. I mean, 0:20:58.076 --> 0:21:01.316 you're you have a dynamic that's not always a friend dynamic. 0:21:01.476 --> 0:21:04.956 I think it's been pretty seamless and easy for me 0:21:05.036 --> 0:21:07.356 and Malcolm. He can tell you what he thinks, and 0:21:07.476 --> 0:21:12.516 I don't think we've had any any meaningful or significant conflicts. 0:21:12.596 --> 0:21:15.556 But you know, the one dynamic that I'd point to, 0:21:15.796 --> 0:21:18.236 which is not my favorite, but it's a reality, is 0:21:18.276 --> 0:21:21.076 that I've got to say no more than Malcolm does. 0:21:21.396 --> 0:21:24.436 He's he can come up with all these ideas, and 0:21:24.836 --> 0:21:27.196 I've got a little more of the responsibility for figuring 0:21:27.196 --> 0:21:29.236 out how we can get him done or which ones 0:21:29.276 --> 0:21:32.316 we can get done, and sometimes I've just got to say, Malcolm, 0:21:32.396 --> 0:21:34.756 that's you know, just like one idea too many, we 0:21:34.836 --> 0:21:37.556 can't do it. Do you think of an example, Well, 0:21:37.556 --> 0:21:41.916 you know, Malcolm will like meet someone on a plane 0:21:42.676 --> 0:21:45.276 and land and send me an email about why they 0:21:45.276 --> 0:21:49.836 should have a podcast, and I've got it, then say, okay, 0:21:49.876 --> 0:21:52.116 well let's you know, I'd love to talk to them 0:21:52.156 --> 0:21:54.676 and let's hear what their voice sounds like. And you know, 0:21:54.756 --> 0:21:58.396 have they ever done any audio before? And uh, you know, 0:21:58.796 --> 0:22:03.236 he's uh, he's got very good instincts. And it's I 0:22:03.476 --> 0:22:06.556 guarantee you those people are interesting. But whether they're going 0:22:06.596 --> 0:22:08.756