1 00:00:15,276 --> 00:00:23,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hi everyone, it's Michael Lewis. I'm very proud and 2 00:00:24,036 --> 00:00:26,756 Speaker 1: honored to present you this bonus episode, which is part 3 00:00:26,796 --> 00:00:31,876 Speaker 1: of Dell Technologies Small Business Podfrints. So we know how 4 00:00:31,876 --> 00:00:34,396 Speaker 1: many small businesses are now grappling with the impact of 5 00:00:34,436 --> 00:00:38,076 Speaker 1: these uncertain times and looking for resources. But a lot 6 00:00:38,076 --> 00:00:40,996 Speaker 1: of the conferences where people trade ideas, those are canceled 7 00:00:41,036 --> 00:00:44,636 Speaker 1: right now. So Dell Technologies has organized something they're calling 8 00:00:44,876 --> 00:00:49,156 Speaker 1: a pod Frints for small business owners, like a virtual 9 00:00:49,196 --> 00:00:53,276 Speaker 1: conference to share advice in some inspiration. Dell Technologies is 10 00:00:53,396 --> 00:00:56,036 Speaker 1: here to help you through these times, from keeping you 11 00:00:56,116 --> 00:00:59,676 Speaker 1: connected and productive while working remotely with Windows ten in 12 00:00:59,756 --> 00:01:03,516 Speaker 1: Microsoft teams, to providing relevant content to help your business. 13 00:01:04,036 --> 00:01:09,116 Speaker 1: To find more participating podcasts search Dell Technology, Small Business 14 00:01:09,356 --> 00:01:14,156 Speaker 1: pot ferns on Radio, dot Com, Spotify or Apple Podcasts. 15 00:01:14,276 --> 00:01:18,996 Speaker 1: At the end of this episode, I was asked to 16 00:01:19,036 --> 00:01:21,876 Speaker 1: moderate a panel with two of my oldest friends, Malcolm 17 00:01:21,876 --> 00:01:24,956 Speaker 1: Gladwell and Jacob Weisberg. We've known each other since the 18 00:01:25,036 --> 00:01:27,196 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties when we were all young writers in the 19 00:01:27,236 --> 00:01:30,836 Speaker 1: magazine business. Malcolm and Jacob are now the co founders 20 00:01:30,836 --> 00:01:34,756 Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries, the company that produces Against the Rules, 21 00:01:35,476 --> 00:01:39,076 Speaker 1: which is now underway. By the way, Pushkin also makes 22 00:01:39,076 --> 00:01:41,596 Speaker 1: a bunch of other great shows, like Malcolm's own Revisionist 23 00:01:41,716 --> 00:01:46,156 Speaker 1: History and The Happiness Lab with doctor Laurie Santos. I've 24 00:01:46,156 --> 00:01:48,876 Speaker 1: been watching on the sidelines over the past year as 25 00:01:48,916 --> 00:01:51,756 Speaker 1: Malcolm and Jacob started the company, so I was really 26 00:01:51,836 --> 00:01:54,396 Speaker 1: happy to have an excuse to ask them all kinds 27 00:01:54,396 --> 00:01:56,876 Speaker 1: of nosy questions about what they've learned about running a 28 00:01:56,916 --> 00:02:01,196 Speaker 1: business together and the challenges they face, and the challenges 29 00:02:01,436 --> 00:02:05,236 Speaker 1: right now in our quarantine world. Well, those are unique. 30 00:02:05,636 --> 00:02:08,076 Speaker 1: You'll get to hear a little bit about that. Here's 31 00:02:08,076 --> 00:02:11,756 Speaker 1: our conversation, all right. So, because I don't actually know 32 00:02:11,836 --> 00:02:14,396 Speaker 1: the story, so I would love to know how you 33 00:02:14,476 --> 00:02:18,436 Speaker 1: decided to start Pushkin, Jacob, right, it was Jacob's doing. 34 00:02:18,956 --> 00:02:23,436 Speaker 1: How do you start? Well, I'd started one podcast company already, 35 00:02:23,476 --> 00:02:27,076 Speaker 1: which was Panoply, which came out of Slate, but as 36 00:02:27,556 --> 00:02:32,036 Speaker 1: things evolved, Panoply turned into a technology company. I thought 37 00:02:32,076 --> 00:02:35,436 Speaker 1: I was starting mainly a content company, and one of 38 00:02:35,436 --> 00:02:39,516 Speaker 1: the shows we'd started was Revisionist History with Malcolm. That 39 00:02:39,596 --> 00:02:42,236 Speaker 1: show was doing really well, and there were some other 40 00:02:42,276 --> 00:02:45,756 Speaker 1: shows I was really interested in doing, so it was 41 00:02:45,796 --> 00:02:49,676 Speaker 1: sort of when the earlier company under a CEO i'd 42 00:02:49,756 --> 00:02:52,236 Speaker 1: hired who I thought was making a good decision, wanted 43 00:02:52,276 --> 00:02:54,996 Speaker 1: to make a pivot that I said, Hey, maybe it's 44 00:02:55,076 --> 00:02:57,636 Speaker 1: time that Malcolm and I started our own company and 45 00:02:58,076 --> 00:03:00,116 Speaker 1: only do what we want to do. I was on 46 00:03:00,196 --> 00:03:06,876 Speaker 1: holiday with my family in I can't remember where. I 47 00:03:06,996 --> 00:03:09,676 Speaker 1: was somewhere in Europe, Italy, in Italy, and Jacob was 48 00:03:09,716 --> 00:03:12,756 Speaker 1: in some I think, if I can tell the truth, 49 00:03:13,116 --> 00:03:18,956 Speaker 1: A truly horrible house in a village, he said, and 50 00:03:19,076 --> 00:03:23,716 Speaker 1: he said, uh. He said that. He summoned me and 51 00:03:23,836 --> 00:03:26,516 Speaker 1: said there's something crucial we need to talk about. So 52 00:03:26,596 --> 00:03:29,956 Speaker 1: I was like, I, you know, drove halfway across Italy, 53 00:03:30,436 --> 00:03:33,996 Speaker 1: show up in this horrible house by the road, and 54 00:03:34,036 --> 00:03:37,636 Speaker 1: then he like sat outside of little chairs and had 55 00:03:37,636 --> 00:03:39,316 Speaker 1: coffee and he said, I want to start a company. 56 00:03:39,516 --> 00:03:43,996 Speaker 1: That's how it began. What did you say, yes right away? Yeah? 57 00:03:43,996 --> 00:03:46,796 Speaker 1: It struck me as well. The backstory about this is 58 00:03:46,796 --> 00:03:50,556 Speaker 1: that Jacob has been I've known Jacob for thirty five years, 59 00:03:50,676 --> 00:03:54,116 Speaker 1: and through for some significant portion of this, I would 60 00:03:54,116 --> 00:03:56,796 Speaker 1: always say that Jacob, I don't know why you wanted 61 00:03:56,796 --> 00:03:59,836 Speaker 1: to be a journalist. You would be a really great businessman. 62 00:03:59,876 --> 00:04:02,076 Speaker 1: If you just became a businessman, you would you could 63 00:04:02,116 --> 00:04:03,716 Speaker 1: make a huge amount of money and you could all 64 00:04:03,756 --> 00:04:06,076 Speaker 1: get rich. Jacob may have forgotten this, but I would. 65 00:04:06,316 --> 00:04:08,556 Speaker 1: I would always worried that if I when I said that, 66 00:04:08,596 --> 00:04:11,396 Speaker 1: I was insulting him because what he really wanted to 67 00:04:11,396 --> 00:04:13,156 Speaker 1: be was a writer, which I was saying it was 68 00:04:13,156 --> 00:04:15,596 Speaker 1: a bad writer, saying I thought it'd be an even 69 00:04:15,676 --> 00:04:20,116 Speaker 1: better businessman. So I remember you saying this thirty years ago. 70 00:04:21,196 --> 00:04:24,836 Speaker 1: And so Jake is a wonderful journalist, but I agreed 71 00:04:25,276 --> 00:04:27,716 Speaker 1: that he's sort of a natural for this sort of thing. 72 00:04:28,076 --> 00:04:30,036 Speaker 1: He's got the temperament for it, unlike you or I. 73 00:04:30,996 --> 00:04:33,116 Speaker 1: But you know what, it would surprised me the thing 74 00:04:33,156 --> 00:04:35,196 Speaker 1: that to take you back even a little further. It 75 00:04:35,316 --> 00:04:37,636 Speaker 1: surprised me that you two went off on this podcast 76 00:04:37,716 --> 00:04:40,356 Speaker 1: Jag in the first place. You both had very happy, 77 00:04:40,436 --> 00:04:45,076 Speaker 1: successful careers in the print world. Why did you decide 78 00:04:45,156 --> 00:04:48,396 Speaker 1: that you wanted to do something different? You know, Michael, 79 00:04:48,436 --> 00:04:51,036 Speaker 1: I'd gotten the bug really In the early days of 80 00:04:51,076 --> 00:04:54,676 Speaker 1: podcasting at Slate were sort of because of a random 81 00:04:54,716 --> 00:04:57,836 Speaker 1: connection with an NPR show Slate had been working on. 82 00:04:58,276 --> 00:05:01,556 Speaker 1: We started making some of the first podcasts anybody listened to, 83 00:05:02,076 --> 00:05:05,396 Speaker 1: and everybody at Slate, all the journalists loved doing them. 84 00:05:05,756 --> 00:05:08,476 Speaker 1: And there was this little audience, small at first but 85 00:05:08,636 --> 00:05:11,916 Speaker 1: growing that just love them. And the giveaway was that 86 00:05:11,996 --> 00:05:15,276 Speaker 1: everybody at Slade who didn't have a podcast wanted a 87 00:05:15,316 --> 00:05:18,636 Speaker 1: podcast and they were just a joy to do. So, 88 00:05:18,956 --> 00:05:21,476 Speaker 1: you know, I'm a little evangelical about things I get 89 00:05:21,476 --> 00:05:25,156 Speaker 1: excited about. And I tried to talk Malcolm into doing one, 90 00:05:25,196 --> 00:05:27,636 Speaker 1: and I tried to talk you into doing one, and 91 00:05:27,876 --> 00:05:29,916 Speaker 1: I ultimately talked both of you into doing it. I 92 00:05:29,916 --> 00:05:33,516 Speaker 1: talked Malcolm into it first, and then I think the 93 00:05:33,556 --> 00:05:35,076 Speaker 1: fact that he was doing it may have helped to 94 00:05:35,116 --> 00:05:38,236 Speaker 1: persuade you. It was worse than that. You got Malcolm 95 00:05:38,276 --> 00:05:42,356 Speaker 1: to a lie to me and say it was easy. 96 00:05:42,436 --> 00:05:45,236 Speaker 1: You lied, But that's all right. Well I forgive you. 97 00:05:45,636 --> 00:05:49,636 Speaker 1: So you two old friends go into business together. How's 98 00:05:49,636 --> 00:05:51,716 Speaker 1: it working out? Like? How do you find working with 99 00:05:51,756 --> 00:05:54,516 Speaker 1: each other? Are you surprised by anything? You finding things 100 00:05:54,556 --> 00:05:56,156 Speaker 1: out about each other that you didn't know that you 101 00:05:56,396 --> 00:05:59,996 Speaker 1: wish you didn't know. Well, I am reminded of a 102 00:06:01,196 --> 00:06:03,676 Speaker 1: years ago I wrote a piece that was really about 103 00:06:03,716 --> 00:06:06,756 Speaker 1: my friendship with Jacob, and it was about the idea 104 00:06:06,836 --> 00:06:12,436 Speaker 1: that what's called elected memory, which is that we outsource 105 00:06:12,516 --> 00:06:14,516 Speaker 1: a lot of the things we know to our friends 106 00:06:14,556 --> 00:06:17,676 Speaker 1: and family. And I was writing about this in The 107 00:06:17,676 --> 00:06:20,076 Speaker 1: Because of Jacob to say that Jacob is someone who 108 00:06:20,116 --> 00:06:23,196 Speaker 1: I respect and trust so much that significant parts of 109 00:06:23,236 --> 00:06:27,316 Speaker 1: my knowledge and cognition are simply outsourced to Jacob. I 110 00:06:27,356 --> 00:06:30,756 Speaker 1: was saying that I no longer read anything about politics 111 00:06:30,876 --> 00:06:33,476 Speaker 1: or try and figure anything about politics. I simply asked 112 00:06:33,556 --> 00:06:37,156 Speaker 1: Jacob what he thinks and adopt those ideas as my own. 113 00:06:37,596 --> 00:06:39,996 Speaker 1: That was my position, and I was sort of a joke, 114 00:06:40,076 --> 00:06:43,316 Speaker 1: but it's actually true. It's just a way better way 115 00:06:43,356 --> 00:06:46,516 Speaker 1: to live your life to make to appoint sort of 116 00:06:46,556 --> 00:06:50,476 Speaker 1: experts in your friendship circle and outsource everything to them. 117 00:06:50,476 --> 00:06:52,476 Speaker 1: I do the same thing with my brother and wine, 118 00:06:52,516 --> 00:06:55,356 Speaker 1: and you know, you make a long list. So this 119 00:06:55,516 --> 00:07:00,076 Speaker 1: is in business. I've just applied this principle, which is 120 00:07:00,116 --> 00:07:02,916 Speaker 1: I just let him do all the things that I 121 00:07:03,036 --> 00:07:05,636 Speaker 1: know he's better at than me. And since that's a rat, 122 00:07:05,756 --> 00:07:08,876 Speaker 1: a long list means my life is very easy. So 123 00:07:09,596 --> 00:07:12,436 Speaker 1: there is that true, Jacob, is there? No? Are you 124 00:07:12,476 --> 00:07:16,156 Speaker 1: basically running the business in Malcolm's decoration? Um? No, I 125 00:07:16,196 --> 00:07:18,556 Speaker 1: wouldn't say that, I mean I I handle more of 126 00:07:18,596 --> 00:07:21,516 Speaker 1: the day to day, as they say, but honestly, at 127 00:07:21,516 --> 00:07:23,796 Speaker 1: this point more of the ideas come from Malcolm. And 128 00:07:23,836 --> 00:07:26,196 Speaker 1: that's that's a bit of an adjustment because I've always 129 00:07:26,236 --> 00:07:29,116 Speaker 1: thought of myself as the idea person. But I'm like 130 00:07:29,156 --> 00:07:31,996 Speaker 1: a you know, a good idea weak person. Malcolm's like 131 00:07:32,076 --> 00:07:35,396 Speaker 1: a five good idea day person. And so a big 132 00:07:35,476 --> 00:07:39,436 Speaker 1: part of my job now is just like being Malcolm's 133 00:07:39,436 --> 00:07:41,876 Speaker 1: filter to try to talk him out of some of 134 00:07:41,876 --> 00:07:44,596 Speaker 1: the ideas and then try to figure out how some 135 00:07:44,636 --> 00:07:48,516 Speaker 1: of the others can can happen. But these are ideas 136 00:07:48,516 --> 00:07:51,116 Speaker 1: for shows, These are ideas for shows, these are ideas 137 00:07:51,116 --> 00:07:53,556 Speaker 1: for new businesses. Malcolm has a lot of ideas. And 138 00:07:53,596 --> 00:07:57,796 Speaker 1: the typical day is, you know, at about eleven am, 139 00:07:57,996 --> 00:08:00,916 Speaker 1: he'll call me and say, this is so much fun. 140 00:08:01,036 --> 00:08:02,956 Speaker 1: We really don't want to get too big too fast. 141 00:08:03,036 --> 00:08:05,276 Speaker 1: Let's keep it just like it is. And I say, yeah, Malcolm, 142 00:08:05,316 --> 00:08:07,036 Speaker 1: I totally agree with that. This is the good part. 143 00:08:07,116 --> 00:08:09,956 Speaker 1: Let's let's not grow too fast. And then after lunch 144 00:08:09,996 --> 00:08:11,876 Speaker 1: he'll call me and he say, all right, I've got 145 00:08:12,076 --> 00:08:15,836 Speaker 1: three ideas, and each of them would involve like adding 146 00:08:15,916 --> 00:08:18,636 Speaker 1: like ten new staff members, and so if we did, 147 00:08:18,716 --> 00:08:20,436 Speaker 1: if we pursued all of our ideas, we'd have six 148 00:08:20,556 --> 00:08:24,156 Speaker 1: hundred people right now instead of twenty five. And you know, 149 00:08:24,236 --> 00:08:26,316 Speaker 1: that's kind of a tension, and it's not a tension 150 00:08:26,356 --> 00:08:28,636 Speaker 1: in that Malcolm and I disagree about it. I think 151 00:08:28,676 --> 00:08:31,996 Speaker 1: we're both pulled in both directions. Liking having a small 152 00:08:32,036 --> 00:08:35,116 Speaker 1: business where we know everybody and it's sort of close 153 00:08:35,236 --> 00:08:38,596 Speaker 1: like a family, and we control everything. But then all 154 00:08:38,596 --> 00:08:41,316 Speaker 1: this opportunity and all these good ideas we want to pursue. 155 00:08:42,516 --> 00:08:44,796 Speaker 1: I'm in these conversations. Are you able to see the 156 00:08:44,836 --> 00:08:48,076 Speaker 1: possibility of a really big business or you think it's 157 00:08:48,156 --> 00:08:51,036 Speaker 1: naturally better as a small business. You've hit on the 158 00:08:51,316 --> 00:08:53,156 Speaker 1: hard part, you know. I think we see that, we 159 00:08:53,236 --> 00:08:55,196 Speaker 1: do see the opportunity to be big. I mean, I'm 160 00:08:55,236 --> 00:08:56,836 Speaker 1: gonna you know, when you say really big, I mean 161 00:08:57,076 --> 00:08:58,756 Speaker 1: it's not. I don't think it's I don't think it's 162 00:08:58,836 --> 00:09:01,676 Speaker 1: Google big. I don't think it's Facebook big. But in 163 00:09:01,716 --> 00:09:04,796 Speaker 1: the world of podcasting, I think it has the potential 164 00:09:05,076 --> 00:09:09,796 Speaker 1: to be really pace setting and dominant. But we also 165 00:09:09,876 --> 00:09:13,276 Speaker 1: want to be really, really choosy and have everything we 166 00:09:13,316 --> 00:09:17,076 Speaker 1: make really represent what we're interested in. And the quality 167 00:09:17,156 --> 00:09:20,196 Speaker 1: level we've set so far. So you know, I think 168 00:09:20,196 --> 00:09:22,436 Speaker 1: it's just the kind of working out of those two 169 00:09:22,516 --> 00:09:25,436 Speaker 1: things will result in the right size. I honestly don't 170 00:09:25,476 --> 00:09:27,516 Speaker 1: know what the right size is. We're going to get bigger. 171 00:09:27,516 --> 00:09:29,556 Speaker 1: It's just a question of how fast we're going to 172 00:09:29,596 --> 00:09:33,516 Speaker 1: get bigger. Malcolm, Yeah, I think what occurred to I 173 00:09:33,556 --> 00:09:38,556 Speaker 1: think all of us very quickly in this project experiment 174 00:09:39,116 --> 00:09:44,036 Speaker 1: is that we're not really in the podcast business. We're 175 00:09:44,916 --> 00:09:47,996 Speaker 1: you know, it's a cliche. We're in the storytelling business, 176 00:09:47,996 --> 00:09:50,316 Speaker 1: and we happen to want to tell stories to audio. 177 00:09:50,756 --> 00:09:54,036 Speaker 1: But that means you can compete against all kinds of 178 00:09:54,436 --> 00:09:57,516 Speaker 1: like we we there's no reason why we can't behave 179 00:09:57,596 --> 00:10:00,876 Speaker 1: like a book publisher in many respects. It's just that 180 00:10:00,916 --> 00:10:04,876 Speaker 1: our books are on our audio, not on the page. 181 00:10:05,236 --> 00:10:07,836 Speaker 1: But once you realize that, well, look at book publishers. 182 00:10:07,876 --> 00:10:10,716 Speaker 1: They're really big. I mean they have thousands of employees 183 00:10:10,756 --> 00:10:13,796 Speaker 1: they have, so, you know, concede that way. If you've 184 00:10:13,796 --> 00:10:15,716 Speaker 1: only think of yourself as being in the podcast world, 185 00:10:15,716 --> 00:10:18,556 Speaker 1: you might think of yourself as being pretty small. But 186 00:10:18,596 --> 00:10:20,956 Speaker 1: if you think of yourself as just as using a 187 00:10:20,956 --> 00:10:23,876 Speaker 1: different medium to tell stories, then there's no reason why 188 00:10:23,916 --> 00:10:27,676 Speaker 1: you can't be really big. So to all appearances, this 189 00:10:27,716 --> 00:10:30,396 Speaker 1: thing has been an incredible success, and it's been really 190 00:10:30,436 --> 00:10:33,916 Speaker 1: fun to make a podcast for you. I'm curious with 191 00:10:34,076 --> 00:10:39,996 Speaker 1: troubles you've had, especially like given the pandemic, how you've 192 00:10:39,996 --> 00:10:44,556 Speaker 1: had to adjust and respond and how much difficulty it's 193 00:10:44,556 --> 00:10:48,276 Speaker 1: introduced into your business. Well, we've all been improvising in 194 00:10:48,356 --> 00:10:50,716 Speaker 1: various ways. I think we feel very lucky and that 195 00:10:51,516 --> 00:10:56,956 Speaker 1: what we make is makeable under these circumstances. People set 196 00:10:56,996 --> 00:11:00,836 Speaker 1: up recording studios at home and we have meetings virtually. 197 00:11:00,956 --> 00:11:02,876 Speaker 1: I don't know that we could have done this with 198 00:11:02,956 --> 00:11:06,716 Speaker 1: the digital tools that existed ten or fifteen years ago. 199 00:11:06,876 --> 00:11:13,316 Speaker 1: I mean, things like Zoom and Slack and Google hangouts 200 00:11:13,396 --> 00:11:18,556 Speaker 1: and share drives um seem so essential to long distance collaboration. 201 00:11:18,756 --> 00:11:21,076 Speaker 1: I mean, in a way, they've arrived just in time, 202 00:11:21,116 --> 00:11:23,916 Speaker 1: and it's sort of the moment for those tools. But 203 00:11:24,036 --> 00:11:26,636 Speaker 1: we can make our shows, and luckily we work with 204 00:11:26,676 --> 00:11:30,316 Speaker 1: writers of a caliber, starting with you and Malcolm, who 205 00:11:30,356 --> 00:11:33,396 Speaker 1: can use their writing to adapt what they're doing. If 206 00:11:33,396 --> 00:11:35,036 Speaker 1: there's an interview that you were going to do for 207 00:11:35,076 --> 00:11:37,716 Speaker 1: your season this year, Michael and you can't do it, 208 00:11:38,036 --> 00:11:40,356 Speaker 1: you can write your way out of it. Um, that's 209 00:11:40,396 --> 00:11:43,556 Speaker 1: not a position a TV producer as usually in. I mean, 210 00:11:43,596 --> 00:11:46,476 Speaker 1: if you have physical production that requires people to be 211 00:11:46,556 --> 00:11:48,956 Speaker 1: in a group in a place, it's just got to 212 00:11:48,956 --> 00:11:51,796 Speaker 1: be suspended. Podcast. We can we can still make it. 213 00:11:51,796 --> 00:11:55,356 Speaker 1: It's not all been easy, but people have been incredibly 214 00:11:55,436 --> 00:11:57,836 Speaker 1: flexible and nimble about how we're still going to get 215 00:11:57,876 --> 00:12:01,196 Speaker 1: these shows done with this new challenge. So it's funny. 216 00:12:01,236 --> 00:12:04,796 Speaker 1: I'm about to I've got five of my seven episodes 217 00:12:04,876 --> 00:12:08,356 Speaker 1: for this the second season done, but I've got I've 218 00:12:08,396 --> 00:12:12,876 Speaker 1: got one really did require me, I thought, require me 219 00:12:12,956 --> 00:12:14,636 Speaker 1: to go out onto the road, and I'm not able 220 00:12:14,676 --> 00:12:16,796 Speaker 1: to do it. And you said to me, you know 221 00:12:17,036 --> 00:12:19,436 Speaker 1: you can write your way around this. And this weekend 222 00:12:19,476 --> 00:12:22,716 Speaker 1: I'm about to find out whether I had and and 223 00:12:22,756 --> 00:12:24,916 Speaker 1: I'm kind of wondering if you think that's really true. 224 00:12:24,996 --> 00:12:27,876 Speaker 1: I mean, what do you think. What I'm thinking is 225 00:12:27,916 --> 00:12:31,756 Speaker 1: just generally, when you're throwing this kind of this kind 226 00:12:31,796 --> 00:12:34,596 Speaker 1: of curveball, you look curveball and you hit it that 227 00:12:34,676 --> 00:12:36,476 Speaker 1: you that you try to just turn it into a 228 00:12:36,596 --> 00:12:40,836 Speaker 1: strength and you see what you can do given that 229 00:12:41,076 --> 00:12:44,076 Speaker 1: given the constraint. But but there's a part of me thinks, 230 00:12:44,236 --> 00:12:47,756 Speaker 1: you know, I hear in my voice the podcast producer saying, 231 00:12:47,796 --> 00:12:51,076 Speaker 1: we need scenes, we need scenes, and now you can't 232 00:12:51,116 --> 00:12:55,236 Speaker 1: really get those scenes. Does it? Does it trouble Does 233 00:12:55,276 --> 00:12:57,076 Speaker 1: that trouble you at all? You think, oh, maybe these 234 00:12:57,076 --> 00:13:00,396 Speaker 1: could be better this way. Well, I tend to share 235 00:13:00,436 --> 00:13:03,796 Speaker 1: your view that the constraint provokes creativity and that you 236 00:13:03,876 --> 00:13:06,196 Speaker 1: often end up with something that's better and more interesting 237 00:13:06,196 --> 00:13:08,516 Speaker 1: than what you would have had otherwise, but not always. 238 00:13:08,796 --> 00:13:11,716 Speaker 1: You know. Luckily, I think for a number of our shows, 239 00:13:11,756 --> 00:13:14,596 Speaker 1: we had a lot of the field reporting the interviews 240 00:13:14,676 --> 00:13:17,156 Speaker 1: under our belt, and so we're more at risk of 241 00:13:17,276 --> 00:13:20,436 Speaker 1: losing like twenty percent of what we wanted. If we 242 00:13:20,436 --> 00:13:22,716 Speaker 1: hadn't done any then it would be harder to make 243 00:13:22,756 --> 00:13:24,676 Speaker 1: those shows. You'd have to conceive them in a different 244 00:13:24,676 --> 00:13:29,236 Speaker 1: way if they're dependent on vivid scenes. Where were you 245 00:13:29,356 --> 00:13:32,756 Speaker 1: as the journalist is physically present. Do you think it's 246 00:13:32,756 --> 00:13:35,156 Speaker 1: going to change the way when this is over and 247 00:13:35,156 --> 00:13:36,716 Speaker 1: you can go back to doing it the old way. 248 00:13:36,796 --> 00:13:38,196 Speaker 1: You think you'll go back to doing it the old way? 249 00:13:38,236 --> 00:13:39,796 Speaker 1: You think you actually learned things that you're going to 250 00:13:40,236 --> 00:13:46,636 Speaker 1: you're gonna work into your into your routine. Well, my my, 251 00:13:46,636 --> 00:13:50,956 Speaker 1: my big goal. And at one of our earliest meetings, 252 00:13:51,276 --> 00:13:54,396 Speaker 1: we had a retreat very early on at Pushkin, we 253 00:13:54,516 --> 00:13:55,996 Speaker 1: sort of sat down and tried to figure out what 254 00:13:56,036 --> 00:13:59,316 Speaker 1: are the principles that we believe in as a company. 255 00:13:59,716 --> 00:14:03,676 Speaker 1: Sounds very pretentious, it actually wasn't. And the one I 256 00:14:03,756 --> 00:14:07,236 Speaker 1: was encouraging how people to accept was we did was 257 00:14:07,596 --> 00:14:09,836 Speaker 1: that we should always remember that this ship be above 258 00:14:09,876 --> 00:14:14,756 Speaker 1: all else fun. If we're not having fun, we shouldn't 259 00:14:14,756 --> 00:14:17,276 Speaker 1: do it. It shouldn't be drudgery. And so I always 260 00:14:17,276 --> 00:14:19,676 Speaker 1: think about my big worry when all the lockdown happened 261 00:14:19,756 --> 00:14:22,276 Speaker 1: was will it still be fun if we're all working 262 00:14:22,316 --> 00:14:25,196 Speaker 1: from home and we can't hang out with this sort 263 00:14:25,196 --> 00:14:29,556 Speaker 1: of wonderful collection of and I think this is in 264 00:14:29,596 --> 00:14:32,516 Speaker 1: the best way misfits and weirdos that we have gathered 265 00:14:32,796 --> 00:14:37,876 Speaker 1: to many podcasts, and I number myself among them. So 266 00:14:38,156 --> 00:14:39,716 Speaker 1: I was like, well, I can't hang out with these 267 00:14:39,716 --> 00:14:42,476 Speaker 1: delight for weirdos anymore? Is this not going to be fun? 268 00:14:42,756 --> 00:14:46,636 Speaker 1: And so I think what's happened is that we've just 269 00:14:46,756 --> 00:14:50,636 Speaker 1: discovered new ways to hang out. My senses, we're building 270 00:14:50,636 --> 00:14:54,476 Speaker 1: a new muscle, and that or that we're kind of 271 00:14:55,476 --> 00:14:58,796 Speaker 1: a resilience so that you kind of know you can 272 00:14:58,836 --> 00:15:00,876 Speaker 1: do it. Knowing you can do it in another way 273 00:15:01,276 --> 00:15:07,356 Speaker 1: is enormously freeing. We'll be right back. As I mentioned earlier, 274 00:15:07,396 --> 00:15:09,956 Speaker 1: this episode is just one of many po podcasts included 275 00:15:09,996 --> 00:15:14,116 Speaker 1: in the Small Business Podfrints presented by Dell Technologies, a 276 00:15:14,236 --> 00:15:19,516 Speaker 1: podcast conference to get inspiration on topics like fundraising, building teams, 277 00:15:20,356 --> 00:15:23,556 Speaker 1: or managing a business in our current environment from top 278 00:15:23,596 --> 00:15:27,716 Speaker 1: podcasts like Against the Rules with Me Michael Lewis, Rise 279 00:15:27,836 --> 00:15:31,316 Speaker 1: with Rachel Hollis and Rhet and Link from ear Biscuits. 280 00:15:31,876 --> 00:15:36,716 Speaker 1: For the complete lineup of episodes, visit Dell Technologies Podfrints 281 00:15:36,956 --> 00:15:42,676 Speaker 1: dot com. Welcome back. Here's more of my conversation with 282 00:15:42,796 --> 00:15:47,836 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg and Malcolm Gladwell from Pushkin Industries. Michael, I 283 00:15:47,836 --> 00:15:50,596 Speaker 1: think there are two big impacts I've been thinking about 284 00:15:50,636 --> 00:15:52,996 Speaker 1: on the company. One's cultural and one is more sort 285 00:15:52,996 --> 00:15:56,676 Speaker 1: of substantive around what we make. But the cultural point 286 00:15:56,916 --> 00:15:59,996 Speaker 1: is that a company like ours, people are really close 287 00:15:59,996 --> 00:16:04,196 Speaker 1: and they get very close making creative work together. And 288 00:16:04,396 --> 00:16:07,196 Speaker 1: we had just moved into this new office in New York, 289 00:16:07,276 --> 00:16:10,156 Speaker 1: like literally a week before or it was closed, and 290 00:16:10,196 --> 00:16:13,196 Speaker 1: we all had to work from home and be socially 291 00:16:13,236 --> 00:16:17,316 Speaker 1: isolated or physically isolated. And that was a bummer. I mean, 292 00:16:17,356 --> 00:16:20,156 Speaker 1: we were this office is really great and like everybody 293 00:16:20,236 --> 00:16:22,996 Speaker 1: was really excited to be there. It's clean, it's new, 294 00:16:23,156 --> 00:16:25,236 Speaker 1: there was really good coffee. Like we couldn't wait to 295 00:16:25,276 --> 00:16:27,116 Speaker 1: get to work and see each other in the morning. 296 00:16:27,196 --> 00:16:28,956 Speaker 1: Those of us through in New York, which is most 297 00:16:28,956 --> 00:16:33,076 Speaker 1: of the staff, and suddenly that's denied to us. Everybody's 298 00:16:33,196 --> 00:16:36,796 Speaker 1: worried about everybody. Everybody's got a whole new set of problems. 299 00:16:36,796 --> 00:16:39,076 Speaker 1: People have to figure out how to take care of 300 00:16:39,076 --> 00:16:42,276 Speaker 1: their kids, homeschool their kids, worry about their parents. Some 301 00:16:42,316 --> 00:16:45,796 Speaker 1: people are feeling physical symptoms, are people getting sick. So 302 00:16:45,916 --> 00:16:50,116 Speaker 1: you have suddenly, instead of this kind of convening, you're 303 00:16:50,316 --> 00:16:56,756 Speaker 1: separated and worried. And the observed, the cultural observation is 304 00:16:56,796 --> 00:17:02,516 Speaker 1: that people then become really habituated to and really enjoy 305 00:17:02,596 --> 00:17:05,716 Speaker 1: in a way, the forms of digital connection. Having a 306 00:17:05,916 --> 00:17:08,876 Speaker 1: zoom meeting once a week where everybody's on it. You 307 00:17:09,276 --> 00:17:11,996 Speaker 1: see where everybody is and you see the backdrops. And 308 00:17:12,396 --> 00:17:15,916 Speaker 1: one of our employees, Sophie mckibbon, is up up in 309 00:17:16,636 --> 00:17:18,596 Speaker 1: New Hampshire and she, you know, she calls in from 310 00:17:18,636 --> 00:17:20,836 Speaker 1: her car because that's where she gets the best phone connection. 311 00:17:20,876 --> 00:17:22,556 Speaker 1: You see her in her car, and you see people 312 00:17:22,636 --> 00:17:25,156 Speaker 1: in their apartments, some of them have kids running in 313 00:17:25,156 --> 00:17:28,516 Speaker 1: and out of the frame, and it's just I'd look 314 00:17:28,556 --> 00:17:30,636 Speaker 1: forward to that so much, just seeing everybody, and I 315 00:17:30,716 --> 00:17:34,236 Speaker 1: think other people are having the same feeling. And as 316 00:17:34,476 --> 00:17:37,236 Speaker 1: you know, Ceo, I just feel so grateful to these 317 00:17:37,276 --> 00:17:40,116 Speaker 1: people who've got all this stuff they're having to deal 318 00:17:40,156 --> 00:17:44,476 Speaker 1: with in their lives that they weren't expecting. But they're 319 00:17:44,476 --> 00:17:46,676 Speaker 1: you know, but they're doing their best work at the 320 00:17:46,716 --> 00:17:48,596 Speaker 1: same time, and I think that's partly because work is 321 00:17:48,636 --> 00:17:52,316 Speaker 1: a refuge in a situation like this. So, Jacob, I 322 00:17:52,356 --> 00:17:54,476 Speaker 1: have a question for you. You spent most of your 323 00:17:54,476 --> 00:17:57,756 Speaker 1: life sympathetic to and surrounded by and being one of 324 00:17:57,796 --> 00:18:01,956 Speaker 1: them kind of journalists who never have to take any 325 00:18:01,956 --> 00:18:08,996 Speaker 1: responsibility for anything, and you've managed to become pretty naturally 326 00:18:09,636 --> 00:18:12,516 Speaker 1: like an executive, like a person who runs a thing, 327 00:18:12,836 --> 00:18:16,676 Speaker 1: and sounds like you just sounded uh and like like 328 00:18:16,836 --> 00:18:21,516 Speaker 1: you could be secretary of the Treasury um. And I'm 329 00:18:21,596 --> 00:18:25,556 Speaker 1: wondering where you pick this up, Like are you reading 330 00:18:25,636 --> 00:18:27,276 Speaker 1: on the sly like in the middle of the night 331 00:18:27,316 --> 00:18:30,556 Speaker 1: reading these horrible corporate management books or are you do 332 00:18:30,556 --> 00:18:33,276 Speaker 1: you have some little secret source of wisdom you go to? 333 00:18:33,756 --> 00:18:35,556 Speaker 1: How did you figure out how to do this? How 334 00:18:35,596 --> 00:18:38,076 Speaker 1: to run a business? Uh? You know, I think I 335 00:18:38,236 --> 00:18:42,356 Speaker 1: was watching people uh do it, And I think i've 336 00:18:42,356 --> 00:18:44,116 Speaker 1: you know, learned a lot from people who weren't so 337 00:18:44,156 --> 00:18:45,796 Speaker 1: good at it, as well as from people who are 338 00:18:45,876 --> 00:18:47,836 Speaker 1: who are really good at it. But you know, Michael, 339 00:18:47,876 --> 00:18:50,556 Speaker 1: I was always just really interested in this problem of 340 00:18:50,676 --> 00:18:54,916 Speaker 1: how you could pay for high quality journalism or media. 341 00:18:55,716 --> 00:18:57,956 Speaker 1: We both came out of the magazine world, and it 342 00:18:58,076 --> 00:19:01,476 Speaker 1: was just this fundamental issue, even before the Internet and 343 00:19:01,596 --> 00:19:03,676 Speaker 1: things got challenging. You know, it was how do you 344 00:19:03,756 --> 00:19:06,436 Speaker 1: how do you make money on magazine journalism where someone 345 00:19:06,516 --> 00:19:10,436 Speaker 1: spends months doing a story. And I sort of went 346 00:19:10,556 --> 00:19:13,556 Speaker 1: from being interested in that problem to kind of taking 347 00:19:13,596 --> 00:19:16,076 Speaker 1: on the problem when I was at Slate, and as 348 00:19:16,156 --> 00:19:18,876 Speaker 1: part of that, we ended up selling Slate and I 349 00:19:19,036 --> 00:19:22,196 Speaker 1: ended up being responsible for it. And it was an evolution, 350 00:19:22,396 --> 00:19:26,156 Speaker 1: but I did go kind of in stages from being 351 00:19:26,196 --> 00:19:29,596 Speaker 1: a full time writer editor to being the head of 352 00:19:29,636 --> 00:19:31,796 Speaker 1: the business. And I don't know, I think, you know, 353 00:19:31,876 --> 00:19:35,556 Speaker 1: I think you've both reflected in this conversation that it's 354 00:19:35,596 --> 00:19:37,596 Speaker 1: fun to try new stuff when you're in your fifties. 355 00:19:37,636 --> 00:19:39,196 Speaker 1: A lot of people in their fifties don't get to 356 00:19:39,196 --> 00:19:41,196 Speaker 1: do that. People just want them to keep doing the 357 00:19:41,236 --> 00:19:43,276 Speaker 1: same thing they've been doing. So if you get an 358 00:19:43,276 --> 00:19:46,916 Speaker 1: opportunity to try something new at this stage of life, 359 00:19:47,236 --> 00:19:49,436 Speaker 1: you can jump at it, and you should jump at it. 360 00:19:49,476 --> 00:19:54,036 Speaker 1: And for me, that's the business stuff, Malcolm, I hope 361 00:19:54,076 --> 00:19:56,876 Speaker 1: you feel this way. It's weirdly still fun. I feel 362 00:19:56,876 --> 00:19:59,916 Speaker 1: a little guilty about it being fun now because I 363 00:20:00,076 --> 00:20:03,116 Speaker 1: know how not fun the world is and businesses for 364 00:20:03,596 --> 00:20:07,876 Speaker 1: a lot of people. But it's just seeing how we've 365 00:20:07,956 --> 00:20:12,316 Speaker 1: hired incredible people and seeing their resilience and how they've 366 00:20:12,356 --> 00:20:16,476 Speaker 1: adapted to it. Um, you know, it's um, it's it's 367 00:20:16,596 --> 00:20:20,156 Speaker 1: kind of a joy and um it's uh. It would 368 00:20:20,196 --> 00:20:22,716 Speaker 1: be a very different story if it wasn't working. But 369 00:20:22,836 --> 00:20:25,156 Speaker 1: it feels like we're going to get through it, and 370 00:20:25,476 --> 00:20:27,676 Speaker 1: it's I feel pretty good about it at the moment. 371 00:20:27,956 --> 00:20:32,116 Speaker 1: All right. So, uh, you guys, to my eyes, you 372 00:20:32,116 --> 00:20:34,676 Speaker 1: guys have never had a spat or a disagreement, but 373 00:20:34,756 --> 00:20:36,356 Speaker 1: maybe you have and you've got it since you've gone 374 00:20:36,356 --> 00:20:39,356 Speaker 1: into business together. Uh have you have there been any 375 00:20:39,356 --> 00:20:43,636 Speaker 1: sources of a disagreement. Well, if anybody's thinking about doing this, 376 00:20:44,076 --> 00:20:46,636 Speaker 1: it is it is riskier in a slightly different way 377 00:20:46,716 --> 00:20:49,996 Speaker 1: starting a business with your best friend. There's there's a 378 00:20:50,036 --> 00:20:54,356 Speaker 1: lot more upside because that's it's a delight to do it, um. 379 00:20:54,596 --> 00:20:58,036 Speaker 1: But you know, it's who gets to decide. I mean, 380 00:20:58,076 --> 00:21:01,316 Speaker 1: you're you have a dynamic that's not always a friend dynamic. 381 00:21:01,476 --> 00:21:04,956 Speaker 1: I think it's been pretty seamless and easy for me 382 00:21:05,036 --> 00:21:07,356 Speaker 1: and Malcolm. He can tell you what he thinks, and 383 00:21:07,476 --> 00:21:12,516 Speaker 1: I don't think we've had any any meaningful or significant conflicts. 384 00:21:12,596 --> 00:21:15,556 Speaker 1: But you know, the one dynamic that I'd point to, 385 00:21:15,796 --> 00:21:18,236 Speaker 1: which is not my favorite, but it's a reality, is 386 00:21:18,276 --> 00:21:21,076 Speaker 1: that I've got to say no more than Malcolm does. 387 00:21:21,396 --> 00:21:24,436 Speaker 1: He's he can come up with all these ideas, and 388 00:21:24,836 --> 00:21:27,196 Speaker 1: I've got a little more of the responsibility for figuring 389 00:21:27,196 --> 00:21:29,236 Speaker 1: out how we can get him done or which ones 390 00:21:29,276 --> 00:21:32,316 Speaker 1: we can get done, and sometimes I've just got to say, Malcolm, 391 00:21:32,396 --> 00:21:34,756 Speaker 1: that's you know, just like one idea too many, we 392 00:21:34,836 --> 00:21:37,556 Speaker 1: can't do it. Do you think of an example, Well, 393 00:21:37,556 --> 00:21:41,916 Speaker 1: you know, Malcolm will like meet someone on a plane 394 00:21:42,676 --> 00:21:45,276 Speaker 1: and land and send me an email about why they 395 00:21:45,276 --> 00:21:49,836 Speaker 1: should have a podcast, and I've got it, then say, okay, 396 00:21:49,876 --> 00:21:52,116 Speaker 1: well let's you know, I'd love to talk to them 397 00:21:52,156 --> 00:21:54,676 Speaker 1: and let's hear what their voice sounds like. And you know, 398 00:21:54,756 --> 00:21:58,396 Speaker 1: have they ever done any audio before? And uh, you know, 399 00:21:58,796 --> 00:22:03,236 Speaker 1: he's uh, he's got very good instincts. And it's I 400 00:22:03,476 --> 00:22:06,556 Speaker 1: guarantee you those people are interesting. But whether they're going 401 00:22:06,596 --> 00:22:08,756 Speaker 1: to be the right person to do a show for 402 00:22:08,796 --> 00:22:11,596 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of reasons is you know, something we 403 00:22:11,636 --> 00:22:14,676 Speaker 1: can kind of have to figure out. But that's what 404 00:22:14,876 --> 00:22:19,916 Speaker 1: I mean. Malcolm's the president of Pushkin. That's the role 405 00:22:19,956 --> 00:22:22,956 Speaker 1: of the president of Pushkin is to be constantly pushing 406 00:22:23,036 --> 00:22:26,516 Speaker 1: us to do more, come up with ideas, to be 407 00:22:27,116 --> 00:22:32,116 Speaker 1: kind of the creative lead. And you know, then there's 408 00:22:32,156 --> 00:22:34,956 Speaker 1: I've I've got to be the filter. Um, But I 409 00:22:34,996 --> 00:22:37,436 Speaker 1: think that's working out. Okay, so far we do. You know, 410 00:22:37,476 --> 00:22:41,196 Speaker 1: I don't know what percentage of Malcolm's ideas bear fruit, 411 00:22:41,396 --> 00:22:44,716 Speaker 1: but it's it's it's more than zero and less than 412 00:22:44,756 --> 00:22:46,596 Speaker 1: all of them. I tried to get us to buy 413 00:22:46,676 --> 00:22:49,596 Speaker 1: as opposed to rent an office. That was one of 414 00:22:49,596 --> 00:22:52,836 Speaker 1: my ideas. We went so far as to actually look 415 00:22:52,876 --> 00:22:56,756 Speaker 1: at some officers with to buy with real estate agents, 416 00:22:56,796 --> 00:23:00,116 Speaker 1: and then at the end Jacob said, you know, I'm 417 00:23:00,156 --> 00:23:02,476 Speaker 1: not sure we really want to be spending our time 418 00:23:02,476 --> 00:23:05,596 Speaker 1: and attention managing real estate at this point, which is 419 00:23:05,916 --> 00:23:10,396 Speaker 1: absolutely correct, but again, left to my own I would 420 00:23:10,396 --> 00:23:15,196 Speaker 1: have been, you know, careening around New York looks with 421 00:23:15,316 --> 00:23:18,556 Speaker 1: real estate agents because I got it in my head 422 00:23:18,596 --> 00:23:20,676 Speaker 1: to why why wouldn't we own our own play, you know, 423 00:23:20,676 --> 00:23:22,236 Speaker 1: and I get why that would be fun, right, It's 424 00:23:22,276 --> 00:23:24,236 Speaker 1: like we have a clubhouse, you know, we can like 425 00:23:24,396 --> 00:23:27,196 Speaker 1: we can, we can own it. It can be you know, podcasts, 426 00:23:27,236 --> 00:23:30,676 Speaker 1: pushkin Central and we can you know, but it was 427 00:23:30,716 --> 00:23:33,356 Speaker 1: one it was already starting to be. You know, we'd 428 00:23:33,396 --> 00:23:36,836 Speaker 1: spent a couple of afternoons looking at real estate, which 429 00:23:36,916 --> 00:23:41,236 Speaker 1: wasn't which were afternoons we weren't spending on making podcasts 430 00:23:41,276 --> 00:23:43,916 Speaker 1: or other parts of the business. And also it sort 431 00:23:43,916 --> 00:23:45,756 Speaker 1: of occurred to me, well, if you buy a place, 432 00:23:45,796 --> 00:23:49,756 Speaker 1: it really is kind of limit your growth potential. I mean, 433 00:23:49,796 --> 00:23:51,996 Speaker 1: what if we do want to double in size next 434 00:23:52,036 --> 00:23:54,996 Speaker 1: year and the office only holds twenty percent more people 435 00:23:55,036 --> 00:23:57,916 Speaker 1: than Suddenly we have the problem of subletting a space 436 00:23:57,916 --> 00:24:00,316 Speaker 1: and we're in the real estate business. So yeah, I 437 00:24:00,316 --> 00:24:03,636 Speaker 1: think that was one of the cases where I maybe 438 00:24:03,676 --> 00:24:07,436 Speaker 1: had to gently talk Malcolm down from a fun idea. 439 00:24:07,556 --> 00:24:09,476 Speaker 1: If you if you had to go back and redo 440 00:24:09,516 --> 00:24:12,676 Speaker 1: the first year of your existence, what would you do differently? 441 00:24:13,316 --> 00:24:15,276 Speaker 1: I've been one of the things I've been pushing from 442 00:24:15,276 --> 00:24:18,356 Speaker 1: the beginning is to think of ourselves as more than 443 00:24:18,436 --> 00:24:22,196 Speaker 1: a podcast company. And I still I don't know whether 444 00:24:22,236 --> 00:24:25,276 Speaker 1: it's a legit concern, but I still worry. I don't 445 00:24:25,276 --> 00:24:27,436 Speaker 1: want to have us to have too many eggs in 446 00:24:27,516 --> 00:24:30,716 Speaker 1: the podcast basket because I think of that world as 447 00:24:32,796 --> 00:24:36,796 Speaker 1: it's too unstable from my taste, and I've actually gotten 448 00:24:36,876 --> 00:24:39,876 Speaker 1: Jacob's been been an even stronger proponent of this idea 449 00:24:39,876 --> 00:24:42,956 Speaker 1: than me, I think at this point. But I wondered, 450 00:24:42,956 --> 00:24:44,756 Speaker 1: I don't know if we were doing over the first year, 451 00:24:45,516 --> 00:24:47,516 Speaker 1: was there would there have been a way to start 452 00:24:47,556 --> 00:24:50,556 Speaker 1: more aggressively on that track from the beginning? Maybe maybe not. 453 00:24:51,276 --> 00:24:54,676 Speaker 1: When you say diversify out of podcasts, I mean pet food. 454 00:24:54,716 --> 00:25:02,556 Speaker 1: What we're gonna do, no no other like book books, books, events, 455 00:25:05,796 --> 00:25:09,956 Speaker 1: you know, producing things for people where you're not depending 456 00:25:09,956 --> 00:25:14,276 Speaker 1: on advertising, all those kinds of things. Just diversifying where 457 00:25:14,276 --> 00:25:16,716 Speaker 1: the money comes from, right, so you're not you're not 458 00:25:16,756 --> 00:25:19,916 Speaker 1: a slave to the ad market. Right. Um, that was 459 00:25:20,036 --> 00:25:22,196 Speaker 1: that's really But I actually think I take it back. 460 00:25:22,196 --> 00:25:23,636 Speaker 1: I actually think we've done a really good job of 461 00:25:23,756 --> 00:25:25,996 Speaker 1: doing it. Yeah, I mean I think we I think 462 00:25:25,996 --> 00:25:29,116 Speaker 1: we bid off about as much as we could have chewed. 463 00:25:29,156 --> 00:25:31,676 Speaker 1: And in the first year and a bit. One thing 464 00:25:31,716 --> 00:25:33,636 Speaker 1: I would have done is I would have got the 465 00:25:33,876 --> 00:25:37,356 Speaker 1: nice office sooner. I mean, the nice office will be 466 00:25:37,436 --> 00:25:39,796 Speaker 1: for me, the fourth office and if you count my 467 00:25:39,836 --> 00:25:42,596 Speaker 1: home office where I'm coming from right now, this is 468 00:25:42,676 --> 00:25:44,876 Speaker 1: my fifth office. And about a year and a half, 469 00:25:45,356 --> 00:25:47,556 Speaker 1: and you know, I thought I could save money. Someone 470 00:25:47,676 --> 00:25:49,516 Speaker 1: gave us free space for a couple of months. At 471 00:25:49,516 --> 00:25:52,196 Speaker 1: the beginning. We didn't have that many people. But it 472 00:25:52,236 --> 00:25:54,036 Speaker 1: does take a little bit of a toll, and your 473 00:25:54,156 --> 00:25:56,596 Speaker 1: you know, your mail never quite all gets forward to 474 00:25:56,636 --> 00:25:59,676 Speaker 1: the right place. So I think I would have said, 475 00:25:59,676 --> 00:26:02,796 Speaker 1: you know what we're gonna we're thinking big, we're gonna 476 00:26:02,836 --> 00:26:04,716 Speaker 1: need the nice office. Let's just get it now, even 477 00:26:04,756 --> 00:26:06,676 Speaker 1: if it's a little empty for a while. Are you 478 00:26:06,716 --> 00:26:10,076 Speaker 1: in the nice office now, Well, theoretically we are. We 479 00:26:10,196 --> 00:26:13,996 Speaker 1: moved into it a week a week before COVID hit, 480 00:26:14,156 --> 00:26:17,916 Speaker 1: But yes, we're looking forward to getting back into it. 481 00:26:18,396 --> 00:26:20,276 Speaker 1: You don't think there's any risk if you started in 482 00:26:20,316 --> 00:26:21,836 Speaker 1: the nice office, you wouldn't think of it as the 483 00:26:21,956 --> 00:26:24,956 Speaker 1: nice office. You think this is the starting office. I 484 00:26:25,036 --> 00:26:27,876 Speaker 1: now need a better office. I'd always been haunted by 485 00:26:27,876 --> 00:26:31,876 Speaker 1: the phenomenon in the media world where the company goes 486 00:26:31,916 --> 00:26:34,636 Speaker 1: to hell as soon as they get the nice office. 487 00:26:34,916 --> 00:26:36,556 Speaker 1: And I think it's a real reason for it, too, 488 00:26:36,596 --> 00:26:38,996 Speaker 1: which is that everyone gets distracted by the like the 489 00:26:39,156 --> 00:26:42,396 Speaker 1: decorating and the who's going to sit where, and suddenly 490 00:26:42,436 --> 00:26:44,556 Speaker 1: nobody's doing what they're supposed to be doing. Instead they're 491 00:26:44,596 --> 00:26:47,436 Speaker 1: all thinking about the office. So I always thought, don't 492 00:26:47,476 --> 00:26:49,876 Speaker 1: you know, make the office like the last thing you 493 00:26:49,916 --> 00:26:51,996 Speaker 1: worry about. But you know what it's part of, like 494 00:26:52,396 --> 00:26:55,476 Speaker 1: providing great place for people to work, and it affects 495 00:26:55,556 --> 00:26:57,836 Speaker 1: the work. If you've got a place people want to 496 00:26:57,876 --> 00:27:00,076 Speaker 1: come to and you know, the coffee can't be too good. 497 00:27:00,556 --> 00:27:02,716 Speaker 1: I mean, you think about how good that coffee is. 498 00:27:02,756 --> 00:27:04,916 Speaker 1: It affects how much you want to be in the space, 499 00:27:05,236 --> 00:27:07,196 Speaker 1: and that's you know, how much you want to be 500 00:27:07,676 --> 00:27:11,476 Speaker 1: in kind of creative conversation with your colleagues. You know. 501 00:27:11,476 --> 00:27:15,996 Speaker 1: Another example of this is I never thought about the 502 00:27:16,076 --> 00:27:18,716 Speaker 1: important you know, until you are actually part of it. 503 00:27:18,756 --> 00:27:21,156 Speaker 1: This is old half to anyone who's part of a business. 504 00:27:21,356 --> 00:27:23,516 Speaker 1: And so you're part of a business or starting a business, 505 00:27:23,996 --> 00:27:26,716 Speaker 1: you don't understand the importance of hiring in quite the 506 00:27:26,756 --> 00:27:32,316 Speaker 1: same way as you You know, you don't understand, like one, 507 00:27:32,876 --> 00:27:37,396 Speaker 1: how crucial, how one really really good person it can 508 00:27:37,436 --> 00:27:40,636 Speaker 1: transform an entire aspect of your business, or one bad 509 00:27:40,676 --> 00:27:44,596 Speaker 1: person can be disastrous. You know, you're I was always 510 00:27:44,596 --> 00:27:46,556 Speaker 1: sort of been different to those questions. I thought, oh, 511 00:27:46,636 --> 00:27:49,556 Speaker 1: you know, because I had these kind of arms length 512 00:27:50,076 --> 00:27:54,196 Speaker 1: dealings with editors or copy editors or whatever, who you 513 00:27:54,196 --> 00:27:55,836 Speaker 1: can ask them, who you could always get rid of 514 00:27:55,916 --> 00:27:58,716 Speaker 1: if you didn't want. Our team has been so so 515 00:27:58,756 --> 00:28:02,236 Speaker 1: strong that it's almost made us afraid to hire people 516 00:28:02,636 --> 00:28:05,636 Speaker 1: because we haven't we haven't got a dud yet, and 517 00:28:05,916 --> 00:28:08,516 Speaker 1: the team works so well together. And I do have 518 00:28:08,556 --> 00:28:11,556 Speaker 1: this kind of phobia that we're eventually, eventually we are 519 00:28:11,596 --> 00:28:13,116 Speaker 1: going to get a bad apple, or not even a 520 00:28:13,116 --> 00:28:16,916 Speaker 1: bad apple, just someone who's not great. And I just 521 00:28:16,956 --> 00:28:19,396 Speaker 1: worry when that happens, it's going to change the dynamic. 522 00:28:19,556 --> 00:28:22,036 Speaker 1: And you know, it kind of raises the stakes on 523 00:28:22,076 --> 00:28:24,836 Speaker 1: every person. You hire because that you have to think 524 00:28:24,876 --> 00:28:26,316 Speaker 1: they are going to be as good as all the 525 00:28:26,316 --> 00:28:30,476 Speaker 1: people you've already hired, and you're right that you are. 526 00:28:31,516 --> 00:28:33,956 Speaker 1: You see, maybe this is what you see when you're 527 00:28:34,236 --> 00:28:36,236 Speaker 1: when you're starting out and you're a small business that 528 00:28:36,276 --> 00:28:38,156 Speaker 1: you might start to lose sight of when you're a 529 00:28:38,156 --> 00:28:41,196 Speaker 1: giant business and you've got tens of thousands of employees. 530 00:28:41,676 --> 00:28:44,716 Speaker 1: Is just the effect of a single person. I finally 531 00:28:44,796 --> 00:28:49,316 Speaker 1: understand after observing for years with some mystification, the obsession 532 00:28:50,036 --> 00:28:54,116 Speaker 1: entrepreneurs had with hiring, I now understand it. I'm like, oh, 533 00:28:54,116 --> 00:28:55,836 Speaker 1: I get it now. I don't know why this was 534 00:28:55,876 --> 00:29:01,436 Speaker 1: a mystery mystery to men. You never had to hire anybody. Yeah, right, right, Hey, Michael, 535 00:29:01,476 --> 00:29:05,156 Speaker 1: let me ask you a question. Yeah, this season is 536 00:29:05,196 --> 00:29:07,996 Speaker 1: about coaching, and you've been talking to some of the 537 00:29:08,036 --> 00:29:09,876 Speaker 1: best coaches in the world. You've been thinking a lot 538 00:29:09,956 --> 00:29:12,716 Speaker 1: about what how good coaches think. What do you think 539 00:29:12,756 --> 00:29:15,116 Speaker 1: a really good coach would tell us about having a 540 00:29:15,116 --> 00:29:17,316 Speaker 1: company like ours and what we should be doing or 541 00:29:17,356 --> 00:29:18,996 Speaker 1: thinking about. I mean, if there was, like, if there 542 00:29:19,076 --> 00:29:21,636 Speaker 1: was like an entrepreneur coach who could who roll, they're 543 00:29:21,676 --> 00:29:23,756 Speaker 1: probably all I think there is. I don't know if 544 00:29:23,796 --> 00:29:25,716 Speaker 1: you've talked to that person yet. But I'm sure there 545 00:29:25,756 --> 00:29:28,356 Speaker 1: are coaches for startups and entrepreneurs, but I haven't talked 546 00:29:28,356 --> 00:29:31,636 Speaker 1: to any of them. I challenge you now to name 547 00:29:31,796 --> 00:29:35,876 Speaker 1: any activity for which there isn't someone who calls themselves 548 00:29:35,916 --> 00:29:39,556 Speaker 1: a coach roaming around selling their services. That's the thing 549 00:29:39,596 --> 00:29:42,156 Speaker 1: that's been amazing to me, is it we actually could 550 00:29:42,196 --> 00:29:44,276 Speaker 1: start with what's the activity when we want to write 551 00:29:44,276 --> 00:29:47,116 Speaker 1: about or talk about, and go find the coach because 552 00:29:47,156 --> 00:29:49,396 Speaker 1: you know they're there. Now, what would what would a 553 00:29:49,476 --> 00:29:57,956 Speaker 1: really good so the I'm not persuaded that so it 554 00:29:58,036 --> 00:29:59,916 Speaker 1: is true. I think that the best place to insert 555 00:29:59,956 --> 00:30:06,076 Speaker 1: coaches is your kind of situation where transitional states. And 556 00:30:08,356 --> 00:30:11,556 Speaker 1: I bet I bet with the with the coach. What 557 00:30:11,716 --> 00:30:14,996 Speaker 1: a coach would do with you is just ask you 558 00:30:15,276 --> 00:30:18,236 Speaker 1: lots of really difficult questions that even I don't want 559 00:30:18,276 --> 00:30:25,836 Speaker 1: to ask you, and and take you, um try to 560 00:30:25,876 --> 00:30:28,596 Speaker 1: figure out where you might go wrong, Like I bet 561 00:30:29,516 --> 00:30:32,276 Speaker 1: if I was guessing what the what the risks you 562 00:30:32,276 --> 00:30:35,316 Speaker 1: guys run are? Are we run as I am? Part 563 00:30:35,316 --> 00:30:40,516 Speaker 1: of your business is that the depth of your friendship 564 00:30:40,596 --> 00:30:44,996 Speaker 1: is so deep that it's hard to me for me 565 00:30:45,036 --> 00:30:50,996 Speaker 1: to imagine um you choosing the success of the business 566 00:30:50,996 --> 00:30:54,196 Speaker 1: over the success of your friendship. And if there is 567 00:30:54,236 --> 00:30:57,436 Speaker 1: ever a moment where those two things conflicted, the friendship 568 00:30:57,436 --> 00:31:00,076 Speaker 1: would survive, but the business would take a hit, which 569 00:31:00,116 --> 00:31:02,876 Speaker 1: I love. But I think that's true. So yeah, that's 570 00:31:02,916 --> 00:31:04,596 Speaker 1: how it should be. I think we I think we 571 00:31:04,716 --> 00:31:07,316 Speaker 1: both feel that way. Hopefully we won't face that conflict, 572 00:31:07,676 --> 00:31:10,196 Speaker 1: you know, I don't think you will. But I think 573 00:31:10,476 --> 00:31:12,556 Speaker 1: when I think about I think a coach would come 574 00:31:12,596 --> 00:31:14,796 Speaker 1: in and say, you guys are doing great, right, this 575 00:31:14,876 --> 00:31:17,636 Speaker 1: is an awesome it's an awesome startup and all everything's 576 00:31:17,676 --> 00:31:19,596 Speaker 1: going well. I think the coach would come in and say, 577 00:31:19,636 --> 00:31:21,996 Speaker 1: what's the risks. Let's see if we can analyze what 578 00:31:22,196 --> 00:31:25,276 Speaker 1: what what we should be thinking about might come down 579 00:31:25,316 --> 00:31:29,676 Speaker 1: the pike and and sort of prepare you for them. 580 00:31:29,396 --> 00:31:33,796 Speaker 1: M do you have anybody like that in your life? 581 00:31:34,076 --> 00:31:38,836 Speaker 1: Who's who's kind of coaching you on the side. Is 582 00:31:38,876 --> 00:31:41,236 Speaker 1: Michael Linton doing it? I don't know. It's a mutual 583 00:31:41,276 --> 00:31:43,556 Speaker 1: friend of all of ours. Michael Michael Lynton, who was 584 00:31:44,356 --> 00:31:47,196 Speaker 1: CEO of Sony and has a lot of experience working 585 00:31:47,196 --> 00:31:50,156 Speaker 1: in a lot of different kinds of businesses, and he's 586 00:31:50,196 --> 00:31:54,396 Speaker 1: both very much available for advice for me, but also 587 00:31:55,036 --> 00:31:58,316 Speaker 1: offers it unsolicited at really good times, including when this 588 00:31:58,476 --> 00:32:01,196 Speaker 1: crisis hit. You know, he he sort of called me 589 00:32:01,316 --> 00:32:03,836 Speaker 1: up and said, you know, he wanted to make sure 590 00:32:03,876 --> 00:32:06,196 Speaker 1: that we were kind of thinking about these questions about 591 00:32:06,236 --> 00:32:11,036 Speaker 1: our cash position and our rest billiancy, and also about you. 592 00:32:11,116 --> 00:32:13,236 Speaker 1: Just wanted to ask me about how I was communicating 593 00:32:13,276 --> 00:32:16,076 Speaker 1: with the staff and making sure people knew what was 594 00:32:16,156 --> 00:32:19,396 Speaker 1: going on and there weren't rumors going around. And it's 595 00:32:20,036 --> 00:32:22,636 Speaker 1: great to have someone like that. I rely on him 596 00:32:22,676 --> 00:32:24,556 Speaker 1: a lot, both of both the advice he gives me 597 00:32:24,596 --> 00:32:26,556 Speaker 1: and that I know he's thinking about the business and 598 00:32:26,596 --> 00:32:30,196 Speaker 1: has experience I don't have with small businesses. So Michael's 599 00:32:30,236 --> 00:32:33,356 Speaker 1: kind of your coach. Yes, if he is for me, 600 00:32:33,516 --> 00:32:37,556 Speaker 1: he's definitely my CEO coach. I'm curious. I've meant to 601 00:32:37,596 --> 00:32:40,036 Speaker 1: ask you when you went off on this retreat, the 602 00:32:40,156 --> 00:32:42,476 Speaker 1: retreat at which Malcolm introduced the idea of fun as 603 00:32:42,476 --> 00:32:46,236 Speaker 1: a founding principle, which I totally agree with. If we're 604 00:32:46,236 --> 00:32:48,276 Speaker 1: not having fun, that the audience is unlikely to have 605 00:32:48,276 --> 00:32:52,156 Speaker 1: fun either. Is What were the other principles that were 606 00:32:52,196 --> 00:32:54,716 Speaker 1: sort of your core that you regarded your core principles 607 00:32:55,836 --> 00:32:57,596 Speaker 1: and do you remember fun which tells you a lot. 608 00:33:03,356 --> 00:33:06,356 Speaker 1: Mia LaBelle, who's our executive producer and has been the 609 00:33:06,436 --> 00:33:09,676 Speaker 1: executive producer of Malcolm Show since the beginning. She's someone 610 00:33:09,676 --> 00:33:13,916 Speaker 1: who came with us from from the old company, is 611 00:33:14,396 --> 00:33:17,276 Speaker 1: very important person in establishing our culture. But she talks 612 00:33:17,476 --> 00:33:20,676 Speaker 1: a lot about kindness as a as a principle of 613 00:33:20,676 --> 00:33:23,796 Speaker 1: the company, and it's really it's really true, and I 614 00:33:23,796 --> 00:33:26,796 Speaker 1: think she's been the kind of guardian of it. But 615 00:33:26,876 --> 00:33:30,436 Speaker 1: it's the way people think about working together and how 616 00:33:30,476 --> 00:33:33,396 Speaker 1: they help each other and support each other. And then 617 00:33:33,436 --> 00:33:37,996 Speaker 1: that ties into I think a bunch of other ethical principles, 618 00:33:38,036 --> 00:33:46,316 Speaker 1: not just about integrity, journalistic integrity, business integrity, but you know, diversity, 619 00:33:46,476 --> 00:33:48,916 Speaker 1: the kind of workplace we want to create, the kind 620 00:33:48,956 --> 00:33:51,636 Speaker 1: of society we want to see modeled in the company. 621 00:33:52,236 --> 00:33:54,196 Speaker 1: So people have a lot of feelings about it, and 622 00:33:54,356 --> 00:33:58,156 Speaker 1: when you have a young workforce, those getting that stuff 623 00:33:58,316 --> 00:34:02,356 Speaker 1: right and having that all be relevant meaningful people to 624 00:34:02,516 --> 00:34:08,596 Speaker 1: people is crucial in recruitment and retention because you've got 625 00:34:08,596 --> 00:34:10,556 Speaker 1: to not just be a place where people can do 626 00:34:10,676 --> 00:34:13,196 Speaker 1: interesting work. I think you've got to be a place 627 00:34:13,236 --> 00:34:16,676 Speaker 1: where people want to work. How do you get across 628 00:34:16,756 --> 00:34:18,996 Speaker 1: your values to someone who's coming in and thinking of 629 00:34:19,316 --> 00:34:22,756 Speaker 1: working for you, I think they have to. I think 630 00:34:22,756 --> 00:34:25,396 Speaker 1: that they don't hear it from this see hopefully they 631 00:34:25,396 --> 00:34:27,156 Speaker 1: do hear it from the CEO. But I think people 632 00:34:27,436 --> 00:34:30,396 Speaker 1: only believe it when they hear it from peers and 633 00:34:30,516 --> 00:34:34,836 Speaker 1: see that peers are having that kind of experience in 634 00:34:34,916 --> 00:34:37,756 Speaker 1: the place they work, and you kind of I can't hide, 635 00:34:37,876 --> 00:34:40,276 Speaker 1: you can't hide who you are, especially as a company. 636 00:34:40,396 --> 00:34:42,716 Speaker 1: Right is a person, so maybe a little bit, but 637 00:34:42,756 --> 00:34:44,996 Speaker 1: as a company, you know, word just will spread what 638 00:34:45,036 --> 00:34:48,796 Speaker 1: it's like there. The values come they do come through. 639 00:34:48,836 --> 00:34:51,196 Speaker 1: And I think it's especially true with startup companies because 640 00:34:51,196 --> 00:34:53,316 Speaker 1: they grow up so quickly that they end up being 641 00:34:53,396 --> 00:34:57,876 Speaker 1: kind of projections of the values and beliefs of the 642 00:34:58,076 --> 00:35:01,276 Speaker 1: of the founders. And you know, I think that's true 643 00:35:01,316 --> 00:35:03,676 Speaker 1: at Facebook and one way, at Uber in another way, 644 00:35:03,716 --> 00:35:06,756 Speaker 1: but it's it's easy even more true at a smaller business. 645 00:35:07,196 --> 00:35:12,156 Speaker 1: Everything that you you believe gets reflected in some way 646 00:35:12,236 --> 00:35:20,796 Speaker 1: in the in the company. Thanks again to Jacob Weisberg 647 00:35:20,796 --> 00:35:24,196 Speaker 1: and Malcolm Gladwell of Pushkin Industries, you can hear more 648 00:35:24,276 --> 00:35:28,236 Speaker 1: of Dell's small business pot fronts by searching, Dell Technologies, 649 00:35:28,276 --> 00:35:33,116 Speaker 1: small business pot fronts on Radio, dot Com, Spotify or 650 00:35:33,156 --> 00:35:39,756 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Special thanks to Emily Rosteck, Carly Miliori, Julia Barton, 651 00:35:40,356 --> 00:35:44,316 Speaker 1: Heather Faine, and Jason gambrel. I'm Michael Lewis.