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Speaker 1: You're listening to Modern Rules, a production of MSNBC and

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. Is it okay to say that men

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Speaker 1: are allowed to exit the conversation for a moment while

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Speaker 1: they go get themselves figured out and feel what they

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Speaker 1: need to feel, while the rest of us take over

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Speaker 1: and make the decisions. It's a welcome relief to say, actually,

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Speaker 1: pisces me off when you put your hand in the

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Speaker 1: center of my back every time we have a meeting.

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Speaker 1: The problem is, I think we have this culture now

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Speaker 1: where you get points. If you're offended, you're immediately right.

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Speaker 1: All you have to do to be right is be offended.

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Speaker 1: When I was just getting started in my career on

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Speaker 1: Wall Street, I definitely got a ton of mileage about

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Speaker 1: being the only woman on the team. I used it

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Speaker 1: to my advantage, And I'm not saying I used it

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Speaker 1: in a creepy way or an inappropriate way, but for me,

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Speaker 1: being a woman in a man's world was my reality,

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Speaker 1: and I made it work to my advantage. To be

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Speaker 1: totally honest, I would credit a lot of my success

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Speaker 1: to the fact that I built relationships with men. And

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Speaker 1: at the same time, I know that many thought leaders

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Speaker 1: in the Me Too movement would say that's not appropriate.

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Speaker 1: The workplace is the workplace. Your personal life and your

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Speaker 1: professional life should never cross. I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor

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Speaker 1: and NBC News correspondent, and this is Modern Rules. In

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Speaker 1: this season of Modern Rules, I'm going to be spending

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Speaker 1: time unpacking the harriest conversations from privilege to political correctness,

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Speaker 1: to try and figure out how we can navigate this

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Speaker 1: changing world and break through to actually talk with and

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Speaker 1: learn from the people who disagree with us, and maybe

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Speaker 1: just maybe learn something along the way. Today's episode Me Too.

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Speaker 1: It isn't two years since the me too movement emerged

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Speaker 1: in the wake of the horrible revelations about movie producer

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Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein that changed absolutely everything, and in many ways

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Speaker 1: it was the wake up call our business, our society,

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Speaker 1: our culture drastically needed. But even in the last two

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Speaker 1: years now, even that change has changed again. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: dig into the current state of me too with my

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Speaker 1: guests Amber Tamberland, Joanna Coles, and Scott Galloway. That's coming

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Speaker 1: up on Modern Rules. One thing I found myself thinking about,

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Speaker 1: especially in this stage of Me Too, is redemption. Is

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Speaker 1: it possible and what does it look like who gets

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Speaker 1: it without question. There's no way we're going to go

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Speaker 1: back to the way things were. But what happens to

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Speaker 1: men who are genuine about accepting the consequences for the

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Speaker 1: way they behaved and are committed to changing. My first

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Speaker 1: guest as a pretty interesting take on how men and

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Speaker 1: women are reacting. What's possible in terms of moving forward

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Speaker 1: post Me Too? She is the talent did extraordinary award

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Speaker 1: winning actress and activist, the most recent author of a

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Speaker 1: very powerful memoir of her own coming of age as

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Speaker 1: a feminist. My friend Amber tample amber Era of Ignition

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Speaker 1: was this book that women needed. We're going through times up,

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Speaker 1: we're going through me Too. Since you wrote it, does

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Speaker 1: it feel like people are asking you what are the

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Speaker 1: new rules of engagement? I think the book has opened

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Speaker 1: up exactly that more questions than it has answers for people.

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Speaker 1: I find myself constantly in this position people asking big,

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Speaker 1: difficult questions. My kind of favorite is when they're sort

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Speaker 1: of talking third person. They're like, I have a friend

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Speaker 1: who's in a marriage with a man who you know

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Speaker 1: is having a hard time with the me too movement,

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Speaker 1: And how would I explain to my friend you know

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of those sort of um questions which

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Speaker 1: you kind of know sometimes are about themselves. But I think, um,

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Speaker 1: I think what's so important about everything that's happening right

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Speaker 1: now is that the questions are okay. The sense of

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Speaker 1: sort of feeling lost in chaotic right now and and

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Speaker 1: entangled and deeply a meshed in this chaos is a

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Speaker 1: good thing because I think from that is where real

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Speaker 1: clarity and change can ultimately come from. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that's sitting and knowing what the answers are. That doesn't

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Speaker 1: provide us with any ability to acquire new knowledge. We

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Speaker 1: have to be curious and open to two ideas. But

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Speaker 1: isn't one of the problems that some people think they

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Speaker 1: know what the answers are and they know what the

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Speaker 1: rules of engagement are. And one of my fears is

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Speaker 1: we're having men, especially retreat, they're so anxious about how

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Speaker 1: to behave that they're now leaving the conversation or they're

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Speaker 1: not engaging with women in the workforce, And ay, do

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Speaker 1: we think that's really happening? And be if it is,

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Speaker 1: what do we do about it? So let me say this,

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Speaker 1: do you really think that it's wrong or bad? That

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Speaker 1: that happens for a little while. Is it okay to

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Speaker 1: say that men are allowed to exit the conversation for

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Speaker 1: a moment. Will they go get themselves has figured out,

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Speaker 1: and feel what they need to feel while the rest

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Speaker 1: of us take over and make the decisions. Because for me,

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Speaker 1: part of it should be them being allowed to feel

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Speaker 1: that way. I am really okay with everyone retreating to

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Speaker 1: their corners right now. I think this foe coming together,

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Speaker 1: this foe reaching across the aisle with people who do

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Speaker 1: not have your best interest in heart, who do not

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Speaker 1: care what you have to think, who do not think

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Speaker 1: your voice matters in any given room or position of power.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's right for us right now to

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Speaker 1: be spending energy trying to connect with those people that's

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Speaker 1: gonna come. That is inevitably going to come. All of

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Speaker 1: these men in business saying well, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: mentor women anymore. I'd like to know when they started

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Speaker 1: doing that, right I came from investment banking. There's never

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Speaker 1: been a woman head of investment bank ever. So they're

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Speaker 1: rewriting history and saying I'm not going to take women

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Speaker 1: along and bring them up the corporate ladder with me.

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Speaker 1: Yet if you actually look, there's no evidence of them

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Speaker 1: doing that at all. Even in the announcing of that,

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Speaker 1: it's they're revealing themselves as supporters of charity cases, as

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Speaker 1: if women are you know, meant to be charity cases.

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Speaker 1: And it's like, look, I brought this one woman up

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Speaker 1: this one time, and I helped her get to the

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Speaker 1: position that she was in, and I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: do that anymore because that was me putting myself out.

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Speaker 1: We have to let men be able to retreat the

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Speaker 1: ones that want to do that, the ones that have

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Speaker 1: existed and lived in cowardice and have maintained their power

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Speaker 1: through uh, through that type of behavior. And for men,

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Speaker 1: I think the simple practice of not going you know,

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Speaker 1: I know what's right for women. I know I know

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Speaker 1: how to get more women in positions of power. I'm

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Speaker 1: the best person to pick the legislation for women. I'm

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Speaker 1: the best person to create laws for women. I'm the

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Speaker 1: best man in the house to help uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: pass legislation for women's um bodily autonomy and healthcare. And yes,

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Speaker 1: conservative women are part of the conversation, and they may

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Speaker 1: feel like they don't even want to be part of

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Speaker 1: that conversation yet, but I think inevitably they will. Megan

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Speaker 1: McCain and I agree that it was totally unfair that

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Speaker 1: no one reached out to conservative women, you know, during

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Speaker 1: the Women's March rally. The same thing with Time's Up.

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Speaker 1: I've been I've been working to sort of bring her

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Speaker 1: in and bring in more conservative women to talk with

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Speaker 1: Times Up and to talk with UM having a larger platform.

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Speaker 1: But you can't feel like you're a part of any

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Speaker 1: movement unless you have some kind of larger support. Not

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Speaker 1: one of us can do it alone. Not one of

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Speaker 1: us is going to come out and say, Okay, one time,

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Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein grabbed my butt one time, Harvey Weinstein dragged

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Speaker 1: me into a hotel room one time. You know, no

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Speaker 1: individual person was able to do that. It was like

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Speaker 1: a floodgate that opened. And and now the floodgate has opened,

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Speaker 1: but there's still parts of the water that's not getting through.

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Speaker 1: But here's what I'm not allowed to say that there

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Speaker 1: are also women who have consciously used sex to get ahead.

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Speaker 1: That is absolutely so if I try to say this,

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Speaker 1: I get annihilated and I don't know where to put it. So,

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Speaker 1: so put it away for a minute. Because there's gonna

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Speaker 1: be time. Right. So, for instance, if you even look

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Speaker 1: at two thousands ev teens me to movement two years ago,

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Speaker 1: there is no way that Joe Biden would have been

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Speaker 1: able to pass along and and become a still viable

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Speaker 1: candidate under those terms. Two years ago, meaning two years ago,

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Speaker 1: we were in the absolute me too. We were in

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Speaker 1: the center of a deep, deep storm. I think it's

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Speaker 1: Jill Soloway has said it the best, which is when

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Speaker 1: people are talking about like, well, these consequences don't fit

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Speaker 1: for this person, how can you possibly say? And the

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Speaker 1: truth is, we don't know what the consequences are anymore.

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Speaker 1: They've been all thrown out the window. What you were

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Speaker 1: seeing right now is the creation of consequences. We're creating

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Speaker 1: and laying a new foundation of rules. It is happening

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Speaker 1: as we speak. You have to wait for it. We

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Speaker 1: have to do these things in at the appropriate times

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Speaker 1: in which people are ready for them. And maybe sometimes

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Speaker 1: in that given situation, it is about saying, okay, right now,

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Speaker 1: I can't say that women are part of the problem,

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Speaker 1: that women this out there in the world is part

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Speaker 1: of the problem, because we're still we're so mad at

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Speaker 1: the patriarchal point of view. We're so mad at men

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Speaker 1: and positions of power. We're still wrapping our head about

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Speaker 1: dismantling that. So I think it's about knowing when to

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Speaker 1: speak about these things. Two years ago. There are things

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Speaker 1: we could never be talking about now. We could not

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Speaker 1: be talking about the the empathy and and and sympathizing

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Speaker 1: of men, and how do you bring men into the conversation.

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Speaker 1: If I had done this podcast two years ago, I

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Speaker 1: would have been ripped to the seams, and it would

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Speaker 1: have been rightfully so, because women deserved their place in anger,

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Speaker 1: they deserved to have the feelings they were having at

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Speaker 1: that moment. And so everything to me, at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day comes down to the context of the

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Speaker 1: timing in which we're saying things, and we're bringing up points.

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Speaker 1: I think everyone at one point two years ago, I

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Speaker 1: thought that it was going to be this monumental, immediate

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Speaker 1: shift where all of a sudden the paradigm was going

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Speaker 1: to change overnight. And it did kind of in a

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Speaker 1: in a in a different way than we thought. All

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Speaker 1: of these women running for president the first time ever

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Speaker 1: in our entire history. It's that's not a coincidence. Look

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Speaker 1: in the entertainment business. You know. Uh, for us, it's

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Speaker 1: it's having more women as members of the voting Academy

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Speaker 1: for the Academy of Television, Arts and Sciences, it's having

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Speaker 1: more women of color, more representation who are behind the camera, directing, producing.

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Speaker 1: You're seeing you know, Regina King, You're seeing a black

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Speaker 1: woman when the best Supporting actress for the first time

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Speaker 1: ever in the Academy Awards. You're seeing things you've never

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Speaker 1: seen before. It's unprecedented. I don't think there's a war

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Speaker 1: on men, and neither do you. But there's a war

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Speaker 1: on power. That's really what it is. The war is

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Speaker 1: on power, so that that means people who abuse positions

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Speaker 1: of power, who are who are up there doing harm

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Speaker 1: and creating harm for other people. I think women reclaiming

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Speaker 1: their voice and reclaiming their autonomy and reclaiming what we

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Speaker 1: need for ourselves is the most important thing we can do,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to spending the energy on trying to stop them,

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Speaker 1: because we can't. Again, this is a long term goal.

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Speaker 1: It's going to take years and years for this to happen.

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Speaker 1: But it's been statistically proven and shown to that when

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Speaker 1: you have more equality in the workplace. When you have

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Speaker 1: more equality in positions of power, sexual harassment and assault

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Speaker 1: goes down. We're gonna be right back after a quick break,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to modern rules. My very first day in

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Speaker 1: New York, my very first day on the job, I

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Speaker 1: met a boy at work. I ended up marrying that boy. Now,

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Speaker 1: when I think about our story, our career story, our friendship,

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Speaker 1: our love life, I think through the two thousand nineteen lens.

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Speaker 1: It was a problematic relationship. I'm not saying it was

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Speaker 1: a me too that worked out, but it was a

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Speaker 1: situation that today would definitely be a no no. So

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Speaker 1: I had a chance to ask the brilliant, influential editor

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Speaker 1: Joanna Coles, who is a keen observer of our culture

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Speaker 1: and of women's perspectives of identity and relationships. And she's

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Speaker 1: also no prude on her views on this issue. I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about how our sex or our sexuality

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Speaker 1: UM is so prevalent in the workplace. I think back

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Speaker 1: to when I started, when I graduated college, and the

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Speaker 1: advice I got was all centered around UM behaving, don't

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Speaker 1: drink at a work event, dress conservatively, UM, never stay

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Speaker 1: out late, don't sleep with any guys at work, and

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Speaker 1: you can think that's good advice or bad. But men

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Speaker 1: who are starting in the workplace never get that advice.

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Speaker 1: I think that. I think men can get the advice

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Speaker 1: of don't get drunk at work, and don't get drunk

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Speaker 1: at work dinners, and don't sleep with the secretary, or

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Speaker 1: don't sleep with your female colleague. I think men are

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Speaker 1: much more conscious of that now. I mean it possibly

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Speaker 1: not when we were graduating and getting into the workforce,

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Speaker 1: but I think people are much more mindful of it now. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's say you do all those things. Let's say you

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Speaker 1: get super drunk at a work event and you sleep

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Speaker 1: with someone. The impact on a woman who does that,

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Speaker 1: I think as much worse than it is for a man.

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Speaker 1: I suspect now. Actually, there's so much sensitivity around it.

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Speaker 1: It's probably the same. I think, certainly, ten, fifteen, even

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Speaker 1: maybe five years ago. You're absolutely right, But I think

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Speaker 1: post me too people are much more conscious of it now.

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Speaker 1: Are we better off post me too? In what way

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Speaker 1: do you think the workplace is smarter or better? Do

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Speaker 1: you think it's better for women? Undoubtedly the workplace is

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Speaker 1: better for women than it was three or five years ago.

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Speaker 1: The fact that women are allowed to talk to each

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Speaker 1: other about. It is a huge relief for women, and

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Speaker 1: I think I think the small micro aggressions that women

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Speaker 1: talk about, that one becomes aware of, are actually incredibly interesting.

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Speaker 1: And you saw it playing out in the Biden campaign

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Speaker 1: with people saying, actually, I don't like it when you

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Speaker 1: kiss the back of my head, or actually I don't

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Speaker 1: like it when you ruffle my hair. Those are all

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Speaker 1: things that I think over the years, women have had

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Speaker 1: to put with, if not more, egregious behavior, And it's

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Speaker 1: a welcome relief to say, actually, it pisces me off

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Speaker 1: when you put your hand in the center of my

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Speaker 1: back every time we have a meeting. And the reverse

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Speaker 1: women forever who do get ahead. People love to say

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Speaker 1: she must have slept her way there. I don't hear

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Speaker 1: people saying that so much, not today, But that's been

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Speaker 1: the case before. You don't think so yeah, sort of

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Speaker 1: twenty thirty years ago, But I don't think anybody thinks

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Speaker 1: that now. But do you believe there is a place

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Speaker 1: that we could get to in the workplace that's too far?

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Speaker 1: Is there? Could we overset sanitize things that you know

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Speaker 1: they're they're a level of intimacy, and I don't meant

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Speaker 1: sexual intimacy, but but connection does help us advance. It's

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Speaker 1: how you really get to understand people. It's sort of

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Speaker 1: where culture lives well. I think relationship intelligence is absolutely vital,

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Speaker 1: and now people are much more aware of it than

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Speaker 1: they were before. People get called out much more and

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Speaker 1: it can be really damaging when you get called out.

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Speaker 1: But what's interesting when people do get called out is

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Speaker 1: that it's often a systematic pattern of behavior which more

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Speaker 1: than one person then responds to. And I think we've

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Speaker 1: all figured out that if there's a complaint about someone

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Speaker 1: and it's one person making the complaint, that's one thing,

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Speaker 1: and it's probably something that went on between the two

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Speaker 1: of them that ended badly. But when there's a complaint

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Speaker 1: about someone and then twelve people weigh in and say yes,

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Speaker 1: and they all have almost identical stories, then you're glad

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Speaker 1: that that's been put under a microscope. When Me Too

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Speaker 1: first began, we weren't waiting for twelve people. That's sort

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Speaker 1: of when that canceled culture began, when as soon as

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Speaker 1: someone was accused of something, it became public and it

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Speaker 1: was game over for no. I don't think that's true.

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Speaker 1: I think you're doing your media kind of rushing to

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Speaker 1: judgment thing. That's not what happened. It took forever to

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Speaker 1: get the Harvey Weinstein story, which really kicked off the

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Speaker 1: me too and there were dozens of women who complained.

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Speaker 1: It was the collective group of women that allowed Adventure

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Speaker 1: Lee the story to get broken. Similarly with what happened

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Speaker 1: with Charlie Rose, almost all the people that we're thinking about,

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Speaker 1: some of the big film directors, these were scores of women.

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Speaker 1: Al Franken's a sort of a more interesting case. I agree,

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Speaker 1: although there were a lot of people who felt he'd

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Speaker 1: been inappropriate right and and at the end if they were,

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Speaker 1: if there would have been uh, due process, due diligence,

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Speaker 1: maybe they would have come to that conclusion. But there's

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Speaker 1: this fear right now that in in a mob mentality,

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Speaker 1: as soon as someone gets accused, the mob comes after them. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty hard for it to get into the mainstream

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Speaker 1: media without there being a group of accusers. I mean,

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Speaker 1: give me a story, give me a case of someone

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Speaker 1: who's been brought down by one accuser in the in

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Speaker 1: the me too world that that you're referencing, Well, um,

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Speaker 1: it's not a direct me too, and it's not sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: But the Joe Biden situation came from one woman and

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Speaker 1: she said it was inappropriate. It wasn't sexual harassment. If

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Speaker 1: sexual assault is in one category and Joe Biden isn't another,

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Speaker 1: and Joe needs to be addressed. But in Joe's maybe

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Speaker 1: it's that conduct doesn't work. We need to update it.

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Speaker 1: And I wonder and we don't know the answer. If

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Speaker 1: she had reached out to his campaign and said, this

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Speaker 1: person is he's running, I need to tell you my experience,

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Speaker 1: and if he's going to run for president, it should

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Speaker 1: be something different. But we saw this woman boom rise

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Speaker 1: to prominence. In al Frankin's case, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: that woman, for many of us, seemed to come out

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Speaker 1: of nowhere. But maybe I'm wrong. Well, I don't know

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Speaker 1: enough about the Al Frankin case. And I think that

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Speaker 1: the images of him pretending to sort of turn the

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Speaker 1: women's the woman's breast when she was sleeping, though in

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Speaker 1: you know, very poor taste, clearly weren't being done in secret.

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Speaker 1: The photo was being done to show off and be funny. Right,

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Speaker 1: it was a joke. It was a bad joke. It

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Speaker 1: was a joke in poor taste, but it was like

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Speaker 1: it was happening in secret, which is I think one

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Speaker 1: of the issues that a lot of the me too.

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Speaker 1: The me too movement has raised this sort of secret, furtive,

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Speaker 1: controlling behavior that goes on that women feel uncomfortable with. Rightly, so,

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Speaker 1: I think the me too movement has has been you know, great.

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Speaker 1: Where do you think it goes from here? Well? I

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Speaker 1: think the media is enormously powerful when it shines its

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Speaker 1: spotlight on a subject and then collectively the media rolls

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Speaker 1: onto what whatever is next. But the media itself has

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Speaker 1: got bored with me too, and he's moving on. It's

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Speaker 1: actually moved on to a different narrative that I worry

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Speaker 1: is dangerous. And it's this narrative. If you turn on

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Speaker 1: conservative media any night of the week at nine pm,

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Speaker 1: ten pm, and they will tell you there's a war

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Speaker 1: on men in this country. Men are going to be

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Speaker 1: falsely accused of assault. Your sons aren't going to get

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Speaker 1: into college because a diversity candidate is going to take

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Speaker 1: their spot. And you know, corporate America is being taken

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Speaker 1: over by women. And I watch it and I think

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Speaker 1: this is crazy. If you actually look at the data there.

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Speaker 1: The amount of women running companies is minuscule, but you

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Speaker 1: have a portion of the media telling this country every night,

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Speaker 1: these angry women are taking over and they're going to

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Speaker 1: take us down. This is what the media does. Why

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Speaker 1: are you so you seem outraged by this. I'm not outrage.

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Speaker 1: That's what conservative media is. I'm not outraged. I'm concerned

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Speaker 1: because what will the impact be? Then? I care so

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Speaker 1: much about the advancement of women, So how do you so?

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Speaker 1: I'm very curious. Then, how do you explain the results

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Speaker 1: of the mid term elections last November? I think this

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Speaker 1: is I love this question because the results of the

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Speaker 1: mid terms were stunning that we saw a record number

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Speaker 1: of women run. We saw a record number of people

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Speaker 1: with education backgrounds, with science backgrounds win, and I thought

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Speaker 1: that was tremendous. I love your question because I think

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Speaker 1: it speaks to the perils of media narratives. And the

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Speaker 1: reason I wanted to even have this conversation is because

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Speaker 1: I feel the perils because I live in them. So

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Speaker 1: maybe it's time to move back to banking. There you go,

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Speaker 1: Just hold on a second, because we have so much

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Speaker 1: more to get into. We'll be back right after a

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Speaker 1: quick break, welcome back to modern rules. So, after I

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Speaker 1: had the privilege of speaking about this to two brilliant women,

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Speaker 1: I thought I needed to bring a dude into the mix.

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Speaker 1: I brought in my dear friend, author, entrepreneur, and very

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Speaker 1: popular n y U professor Scott Galloway. If you say

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Speaker 1: something from your heart and your mind and it doesn't

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Speaker 1: exactly fit into a category, people will call you a sexist,

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Speaker 1: a racist, a misogynist, and then you're dead to them.

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Speaker 1: The risk there's only one real dialogue here, and that

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Speaker 1: is an appropriate dialogue for someone in my position, and

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Speaker 1: that is to pile on and be outraged by everything

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Speaker 1: and join the chorus. One of the reasons I decided

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Speaker 1: to go in academia is academia is based on the

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Speaker 1: pursuit of truth, regardless of who it offends. The problem is,

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Speaker 1: I think we have this culture now where you get points.

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Speaker 1: If you're offended, you're immediately right. All you have to

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Speaker 1: do to be right is be offended, you immediately get

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Speaker 1: virtue points. We're not really having a conversation. We're having

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Speaker 1: an overdue immune reaction to some terrible problems. But we

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Speaker 1: aren't having a conversation because there's a one in ten

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Speaker 1: chance when I start talking about the things on your

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Speaker 1: list here, I'm gonna funk up and ruin my career

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Speaker 1: or say nothing. This is my fear retreat. Look at

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Speaker 1: me too. For example, I did a wellness panel last

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Speaker 1: year and I was talking about how in me too,

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Speaker 1: there's different grades of me too. And I actually brought

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Speaker 1: up a very unpopular topic of redemption, because I think, listen,

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Speaker 1: we loved fight as a culture, but we also love forgiveness.

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Speaker 1: We love a comeback. And I brought that up and

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Speaker 1: a woman in the audience stood up and said f you,

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Speaker 1: and she walked out. And another woman said, corporate America

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Speaker 1: was built by male white supremacists and until we destroy

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Speaker 1: that system, we can't move forward. And I tried to

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Speaker 1: make the argument, like, listen, the world is run by

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Speaker 1: white guys. If you want to get them to the table,

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Speaker 1: if you want to make things better, we have to

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Speaker 1: find a middle ground. Is there a middle ground? I

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Speaker 1: don't know if we're going to have what is really

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Speaker 1: a conversation. I don't know how we end up on

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Speaker 1: the other end of this. And I believe what Jonathan height,

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Speaker 1: and he's sort of my Yoda around this stuff, and

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Speaker 1: he's a colleague at n y O, and he believes that,

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Speaker 1: at least initially, you should interpret gestures with the intent

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Speaker 1: that they were made, and even just saying that is

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Speaker 1: dangerous because there's a general viewpoint that okay. Affection in

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Speaker 1: the workplace is a really interesting thing because I do

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Speaker 1: a podcast with Kara Swisher and she was saying that,

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Speaker 1: you know, she's experienced, and I believe her somebody just

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Speaker 1: creepy moments with men who feel at liberty to invade

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Speaker 1: a woman's space. I also asked her, have there been

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Speaker 1: moments of expression of affection at work that you've appreciated

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Speaker 1: and she said yes, And I said, well, some of

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Speaker 1: us need help figuring out the gray zone in between them.

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Speaker 1: And the reaction right now among all men at work

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Speaker 1: is that there's absolutely no affection. There's no real, open,

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Speaker 1: honest dialogue. There isn't even joking, and I think it's

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00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 1: creating a lack of camaraderie and quite frankly, a lack

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00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 1: of career advancement and connection for the people who needed

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Speaker 1: the most. So this is my fear. I have built

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Speaker 1: my career based on personal close relationships. Right when I

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Speaker 1: started in banking. Literally the way I got ahead. Uh,

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00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: it was my assignment to get reservations most nights of

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Speaker 1: the week at the hottest restaurants in New York City

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00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 1: for these guys, And when I did it, I always

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00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: made sure there was an empty seat at the table

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00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 1: for me. So three nights a week I was going

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Speaker 1: to hot restaurants and nightclubs with the guys that I

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00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,360
Speaker 1: worked for. And one could say, oh my god, it's

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00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: sexist that you had to make dinner reservations. What were

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00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: you doing going to places like guess what? Me going

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00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 1: to those dinners and getting myself a seat every single

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00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,360
Speaker 1: night was great for my career. And to say I'm

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00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,360
Speaker 1: going to use my feminine wiles. It's not feminine wiles

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00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: or sexuality, but women do have high emotional intelligence and

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00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 1: people might invite me to dinner because I'm gonna make

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00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: the table move faster. I'm gonna make the clients feel good,

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00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 1: not in a sexual way, but in a personal way.

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Speaker 1: And that personal connection, building trust with the senior people

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Speaker 1: at the bank and with our clients is what catapulted

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Speaker 1: my business. Now, the idea of doing that is so

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Speaker 1: offensive that that that especially young women are saying that

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Speaker 1: should not happen in the workplace, and my worry is, like, ladies,

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00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: you are going to miss out. So it's funny I

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00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: hear that, and I think it's it's too bad you

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00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 1: had to put up with that bullshit, but you had

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00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 1: the ability to navigate it and leverage it and take

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00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 1: advantage of it. You know how this this problem gets solved.

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00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,880
Speaker 1: And this is going to sound politically correct. I've run

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Speaker 1: nine businesses, and I hate to even say this out loud.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I'm most proud about is none

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Speaker 1: of my friends has ever been sued, nor have we

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00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: ever sued anybody else. You're generous with people. And the

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00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 1: thing that has protected or been the kind of the

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00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 1: kryptonite of my firms from ever having a complaint or

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00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: a lawsuit is that early on I recognize this underinvested

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00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 1: asset called young female leadership, and that is if you

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00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: give him a little bit of flexibility, they were outstanding

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00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 1: assets that weren't appreciated by traditional corporate America. So what

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00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: I've heard, especially abround redemption, is that for so many

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00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 1: people and industries, they're like at the tip of the iceberg.

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Speaker 1: For me too, I feel like me Too has been

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00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: revolutionary in the media, on Wall Street and lots of industries.

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Speaker 1: But for many, they're saying, Steff, we've barely scratched the surface.

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00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: We're not even ready for the redemption story. But even

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Speaker 1: with the changes that we've seen, it's hard for me

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Speaker 1: to get redemption into the conversation. But I actually think

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Speaker 1: we need to because a lot of people want to

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00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 1: talk about redemption, but they're afraid. They're afraid to bring

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00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,719
Speaker 1: it up because this is such a hot button issue.

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00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: Are we going to create an island where every me

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Speaker 1: too person has to live like a leper colony? Are

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00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: we going to say, listen, there are different levels of this.

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Speaker 1: There are people who have been embroiled in it, and

487
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: maybe they've gotten smarter and better, or we have. Here's

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Speaker 1: what I'm committed to do. I'm committed to talk about

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00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 1: me too, not to banish anyone to an island. I'm

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00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: not gonna let me to sit on a shelf that

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00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 1: I won't touch. So for every guy out there who's

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Speaker 1: saying I'm not going to mentor a woman anymore because

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be accused of something, I'm not going

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00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: to allow him to say that, because I don't want

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00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 1: mentorship to go away, and I am going to spend

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00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: more time that puts myself at risk. Em that I

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00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 1: work with who are so clear, black and white that

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00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: there should never be paths that cross. So I'm gonna

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00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: bring those people to my house for dinner, where they're

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00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: gonna eat with my husband who I met at work,

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00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 1: and my children, who wouldn't exist if I didn't meet

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00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,239
Speaker 1: that guy at work, and try to say, if we

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00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: opened our hearts and opened our minds and realized the

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00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: negative impact when sex exists at work, what it can

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00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 1: do and all the people it can hurt, if we

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00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: talked about it more, it actually talked about these things

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00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 1: more with compassion. I think we have progress. This has

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Speaker 1: been our conversation on me too. Thanks for listening, bringing

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Speaker 1: an open mind, and helping me create the modern rules.

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Speaker 1: That's it for today's episode. I'm your host, Stephanie Rule.

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Speaker 1: A very very special thanks to the extraordinary people who

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Speaker 1: made this happen. My producers Julie Brown, Samantha Ullen, and

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00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 1: Anne Bark, Audio Michael Biett for booking and wrangling the

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00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 1: amazing guests who joined us, Julian Weller for editing, and

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00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: Bill Plaques, Michael Azar and Jacobo Penzo for their recording expertise.

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00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Steve lick Tide, Barbara Rab, Jonathan Wald,

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00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,719
Speaker 1: Marie Dugo, Holly traz, Nikki Etre, and Christina Everett. Our

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00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 1: executive producers are Conald Byrne and Mangesh Hatigadore, and of

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00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: course the men who brought us all together, Chairman and

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00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: CEO of iHeartMedia Bob Pittman and Chairman of NBC News

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00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: Andy Lack. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio and

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00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio Adam Apple podcast or wherever

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00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows