1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M Hello, 4 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt Our 5 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: co host Noel Is on Adventures they called me Ben. 6 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,279 Speaker 1: We are joined with our super producer Paul Mission controlled 7 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: dec and most importantly, you are you. You are here 8 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. Matt, 9 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: do you ever contemplate alternative timelines or alternate timelines? Do 10 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: you ever think of, uh, who you might be and 11 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: what you might be doing in a universe just to 12 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: the left of ours. Yes, I have a similar thing 13 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: to that. It's a it's a it's a yes but 14 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: which is a weird thing shouldn't shouldn't do yes butts. 15 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: But my wife and I have this theory that we 16 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: jumped timelines sometime in that all of Earth jumped the 17 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: timeline and somehow we were in this alternate reality now 18 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: where where just things are a little bit off of 19 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: what they were before and we we don't really know 20 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: because it's the whole Mandela effect thing, where our memories 21 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: are are a little different but in this timeline, it's 22 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: all been this way forever, and that's that's an interesting argument, 23 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: but it's more common than you might think, especially here 24 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: in the West. Quite a few people have on an 25 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: individual level floated something like that with me. Um. I 26 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: guess my timeline question for you and for you listeners 27 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: today is hinging on these these sorts of thought. It 28 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: experiments that we have these Walter Mitty esque moments where 29 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: we think, you know, what is my life in this 30 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: other universe, like where I am an astronaut or where 31 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: I am a touring percussionist for I don't know what. 32 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: What's a dream band that people want to play percussion for? 33 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: I always knew that you were going to do that 34 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: one day. I knew it. Dave Matthews Man, oh yeah, 35 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 1: I met one of their touring drummers, not the main guy, 36 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: but I met one of their touring drummers a while back. 37 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: Really nice guy. Uh. That is the end of that story. 38 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: But the reason I ask is because you met Carter. 39 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 1: What's you met Carter? No, not the main drummer, No, No, 40 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: one of the like one of the bongo guys. Oh yeah, 41 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: the percussionist guy. So way back in a different version 42 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 1: of my own life. I was on track to be UH, 43 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: an employee of something very much like the company that 44 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 1: we're examining today. Thankfully, this is just my opinion. Thankfully 45 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: I didn't do it, and my thoughts and prayers go 46 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: out to whatever Ben Bull and lives in an a 47 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: version of the timeline where the cards felt differently, and 48 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: instead we got into this, and instead we ended up 49 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: doing this. Yes, when we think of global powers, we 50 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: usually think of nations, right, governments, religions, huge multinational corporations 51 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: and so on, and we understand in a very general 52 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: way how all of these work. You don't need to 53 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: be a president or prime minister to understand that nations 54 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: on paper seek to make life better for their citizens, 55 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: right on paper, And you don't need to or maybe 56 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: a certain segment of their citizenry. You don't need to 57 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: be a priest, patriarch or a pope to understand that 58 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: religions typically strive to make new converts and spread their teachings, 59 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: their philosophies and save souls, yeah, depending on the religion. 60 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: While a corporation will work to expand its market share 61 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: and ultimately it's bottom line and all of these things 62 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: are fine in theory, right, but none of them are 63 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: inherently good or evil, which I know can ruffle some feathers, 64 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: especially when we talk about religion. We're not talking about 65 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: a specific religion, just the concept none are inherently good 66 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: or evil. Because some nations might improve life for their 67 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: citizens or some percentage of their population by making things 68 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: worse for other people in another country, or indeed in 69 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: the same country, And some religions may advocate slavery or 70 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: death for nonbelievers that may be the best way to 71 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: save their souls, according to some teaching or interpretation thereof. 72 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: And as we know, some corporations may read tremendous havoc 73 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: chasing that bottom line and even ultimately shoot themselves in 74 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: the foot, you know what I mean. But today's stories 75 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: about something else entirely, not a religion, not a nation, 76 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: perhaps not even really a corporation, at least in the 77 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: way that we would traditionally think about. One of those 78 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: today's episode is about a mysterious consultancy firm called the 79 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: McKenzie Group, but to those in the know, it's simply 80 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: called the firm. Oh, I like that movie with Tom Cruise, right, Yeah, 81 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: there's also a book, a book the Firm. There's yea, 82 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: and there's a documentary about McKenzie called The Firm. So 83 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: let's let's look at the history first. Here are the facts. 84 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: This thing is very, very old. The McKenzie Group was 85 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: founded in nineteen six by a fellow named James O. Mackenzie. 86 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: He was a University of Chicago professor and an expert 87 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: on what's known as management accounting. He worked his way 88 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: up from the bottom. Okay, management accounting, So I guess 89 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: a manager of sorts, or I guess in this case 90 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 1: he is a consultant high level accounting. Right, how do 91 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: we how do we best understand a budget for an organization? Right? 92 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: How do we streamline that budget? How do we grow 93 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: certain parts of it? And so on? He was born 94 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: way back in eighty nine. He grew up in fairly 95 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: modest means, in the three room house and the ozarks. 96 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: And this kind of these kind of humble beginnings are 97 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: talking points that a lot of companies of this nature 98 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: love to hit, you know what I mean, Large corporations 99 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: love to talk about the humble beginnings and therefore the 100 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: implied genius of their founder. Right, this was an extraordinary person, 101 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: whatever their name is, because through nothing but their own 102 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,799 Speaker 1: intellect and gumption, they rose to the top. His grip 103 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: on his his bootstraps very strong. This is this is 104 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: very popular. This is um This is an iteration of 105 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: the American myth, you know what I mean. So it's 106 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: no wonder that that's one of the first things you'll 107 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: read about the Founder in any of the official literature. 108 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: It is interesting you started as a professor. That that 109 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: fascinates me. He's a learned man who's already teaching people 110 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: something there. I feel like this maybe just completely naivete 111 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: on my heart, but to be a professor or a 112 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: teacher of any kind, I feel like there has to 113 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: be a certain amount of selflessness in somebody. But maybe 114 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: I'm wrong about that. I'm professors or people, Matt. You know, 115 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: people have a terrible track record, Okay, but which I mean? 116 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: I'm not. I share the same I share the same 117 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: bias in many ways because I am one of those 118 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: people who, like you, I believe, looks up to professors, 119 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: people who dedicate such a large portion of their life 120 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: to learning a specific fake discipline, or even a specific 121 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: subset of a specific discipline. You know, and then not 122 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: necessarily using all of that hard work for your own means, 123 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: you're using it to teach other people to do what 124 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: you are you have learned so much about. I don't 125 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,679 Speaker 1: know that that to me, it speaks to somebody's character 126 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: and I guess at a base level, Yeah, yeah, I agree. 127 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: It also brings us to I mean, this may be 128 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: a story for a different day, but it brings us 129 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: to the idea of uh academic wars, wars of ideology, 130 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: which are fought in the ivory towers as we record 131 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: this episode. You know what I mean, What is the 132 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: nature of humanity? How does that translate philosophically to the 133 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: best economic model? Things like that, right, people have been 134 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: people still choose which which hill they want to die 135 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: on in this debate, And it can sound dry and academic, 136 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: but we have to remember the same people who are 137 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 1: opposing one another in these sorts of things, anywhere from 138 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: more political philosophy to more economic philosophy, these people end 139 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: up in the halls of power. They end up making laws, 140 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, or having a very very 141 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: strong influence on the laws that are made. So it 142 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: can seem dry, but at the end of the day. 143 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: It does impact you, and it impacts everyone around you, 144 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: at least who lives in that government, and sometimes often 145 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: people who at least in the case of the US, 146 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: people who don't have anything to do with the US 147 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: get impacted by these beliefs. Mackenzie's original I guess breakout 148 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: single was, uh, the principles of what's called scientific management. 149 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 1: He was an early practitioner of this. And this will 150 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: sound very familiar understandable to all of us. It's just 151 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 1: the detailed study of workflow and the division of labor. 152 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: So we have X amount of employees, why amount of task? 153 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: How do we translate this into uh, the most efficient process? Right, 154 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: which you know we're explaining in a very simple way, 155 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: but you can see how this becomes incredibly complicated incredibly quickly. 156 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: But it turns out Mackenzie was really good at it. 157 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: And we all know when we heard that date ninety six, 158 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: we all know that there was a context, Uh, there 159 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: was a disaster looming on the on the horizon, just 160 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: a few years after the foundation of the Mackenzie Group. 161 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: It's not really a great time to found something, right, 162 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: the Great Depression occurred. But here's the deal. Under Mackenzie's leadership, 163 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: this group, this this organization that he created. It didn't 164 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: just survived the depression. It didn't just make it through. 165 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: This sucker thrived. When the founder, James O. McKenzie died 166 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: in nineteen seven, gentleman named Marvin Bauer the firm, and 167 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: he took it basically beyond what James had been able 168 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: to take it to some would say glory over the 169 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: next thirty years. In part though, uh, this is part 170 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: of an obsession with being quote unquote professional in appearance 171 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: and tone and conduct, So really creating an outward image 172 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: of what this firm is, what a representative of the 173 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: Mackenzie Group would be, and a pretty specific, right and 174 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: pretty um meticulous. One word that you would use in 175 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: a corporate boardroom to describe this would be granular. Yeah. 176 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: So let's talk about some argyle socks. Who gets to 177 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: wear them? Who doesn't get to wear them? Argyle? What's 178 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: your take? Mr? Mr Bauer? Mr Bauer once forbade all 179 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: junior consultants from wearing argyle socks because he thought they 180 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: would distract clients. And and uh, the firm's consultants were 181 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 1: all required to wear fedoras at this time. We were all, um, 182 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: we're all probably dudes, uh until President Kennedy stopped wearing them. 183 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: Wow that I don't know why. It just reminds me. 184 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: I do know why. It reminds you of the peaky blinders. 185 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 1: That's what I'm seeing in my head. Well. Also, this 186 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 1: is interesting because it feels like the guy is creating 187 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: a uniform, right, he is creating a uniform, not just 188 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,439 Speaker 1: a fabric, but also of minds. Marvin Bauer is can 189 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 1: be considered the head UH brand visionary or propagandist, internal 190 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: propagandist for McKenzie. He's the one who told everybody to 191 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: start calling it the firm. He established the terminology, jargon, nomenclature, 192 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, that the employees would 193 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: use going forward. One example would be the all employees 194 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: of a certain type were called partners. That was him. 195 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: It gives everybody some prestige, especially from a client basis. 196 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 1: You know, I'm not working with an employee now, I'm 197 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: not spending millions of dollars on that. I'm working with 198 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: a partner. That's my partner. Man. And additionally, he is 199 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: responsible for corporate culture that continues. By all reports today, 200 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: you'll hear former mckensey employees say things like there are 201 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: only three great institutions remaining in the world, the Marines, 202 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church, and Mackenzie. And they're serious, they believe it. Yeah, 203 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: this kind of loyalty, fervent loyalty and um belief in 204 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: the company is is baked into every single employee. Uh. 205 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: He also established a set of rules, rules of engagement 206 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: and rules of conduct. And let's just listen, these off 207 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: consultants should put the interests of clients before Mackenzie's revenues. 208 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: That's a big change, at least if you're a corporation 209 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: that is for profit. You were. You were basically saying, 210 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: in a way, the customer is always right in this situation, 211 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 1: but in this case, the customer is your partner. And 212 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,479 Speaker 1: then he said, of course, Omerta, do not discuss client affairs. 213 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: That makes sense absolutely. He also said, tell the truth 214 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: as you see it, even if this means challenging the 215 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: client's opinion. So let's say that you are working with 216 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: a large beverage company and they want to make a 217 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: new kind of product that you know as a Mackenzie partner, 218 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: it's just not gonna work. Then it's your job to 219 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: instead of just taking their money, it's your job to 220 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: tell them that this um ranch dressing flavored soda is 221 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: a terrible idea. But I'm going to stop you there. 222 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: Um that is one of the most disgusting things I've 223 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: heard in a while. It's also a real thing. Oh, 224 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: it's a real thing. So did you do that in 225 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: the Natural Flavorings episode? Now, I was. I went to 226 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: visit our friends Lauren and Annie over at Savor to 227 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: do an episode with them about Ranch. So check that 228 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: out if you are, if you are, like of the 229 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: American public, a die hard fan of Ranch, can you 230 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: believe that my son's in there? No, neither like my 231 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: buttermilk and man a separate I'm kidding. I mean that's 232 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: what it was originally. Anyway, just you could check out 233 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: that episode. Another example, it's let's say you're a mckensey 234 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: partner working for a strongman or dictator an authoritarian regime, 235 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: and they say, look, the best way to uh subjugate 236 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: this ethnic minority is to, um, I don't know, shoot 237 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: them all. And then you say, no, the best way 238 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: to subjugate this ethnic minority is to imprison all of them. 239 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: But call them re education camps or summer camps. You know, 240 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: we'll work on the phrasing. That's that's the stuff you're 241 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: supposed to do as a Mackensey consultant. You're supposed to 242 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: stick by what you think is the correct answer, even 243 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: if your clients, some of whom may be quite dangerous 244 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: people will disagree with you. And then they said, only 245 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: perform work that is both necessary and that Mackenzie can do. Well, Okay, 246 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: only stuff that's necessary. I wonder what, I wonder why 247 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: that one is so important, But I guess that's the 248 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: idea of we're only going to outwardly show good work. 249 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: So if we if we don't know that we can 250 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: perform this task like to perfection, then we're not even 251 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: going to attempt it. That way, nothing ever, dings our reputation. Yeah, yeah, 252 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: it's there's some health preservation there, right, And it makes 253 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: sense when you think about it. The the idea of 254 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: only doing work that is necessary also also makes sense. 255 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: It's a matter of professionalism. You're not doing unneeded work 256 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: and then finding the client or giving them a fee 257 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: for that, you know what I mean. It's the difference 258 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: between a good mechanic and an unscrupulous one. Yeah. Absolutely. 259 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: Here's another rule that mackenzie set for itself. They only 260 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: work with CEOs, and they only work with clients that 261 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: the firm itself feels will follow the advice of the firm. 262 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: So they're not they're not trying to get somebody in 263 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: there that's maybe just wealthy enough, but won't actually heed 264 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 1: their advice. Again, they're so selective with how they're viewed. 265 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 1: I think we keep painting this picture here. Um and 266 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: and so far since what what was the year, it's 267 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: it's just been working for them. Yeah, they keep a 268 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 1: very very low profile. They did it expand there um 269 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,959 Speaker 1: the restriction on CEOs to include CEOs of subsidiaries and 270 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 1: divisions of larger companies. Don't that nice? Yeah, So it's 271 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: a it's a little bit of a bigger poll than 272 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: it was originally. But the changes over the years have 273 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: not fundamentally changed the rules of engagement or the core 274 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: values of the company. And as you said, Matt, this 275 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: has been a winning formula. There was a profile story 276 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: on McKenzie in and said mackenzie and Company was quote 277 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: the most well known, most secretive, most high priced, most prestigious, 278 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: most consistently successful, most envied, most trusted, most disliked management 279 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: consulting firm on Earth. Wow, Loveday threw that most disliked 280 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: in there right at the end. I wonder who dislikes it? 281 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: A lot of people competitors dislike it, U victims or 282 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 1: I guess you would say unsatisfied clients, right, or people 283 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 1: who as a result of a project maybe lost their livelihood. Yeah. 284 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 1: I bet there's some uh, law enforcement agencies that don't 285 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: like them so much, just because they're probably so good at, 286 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: you know, keeping a face on whatever situation is going on. 287 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: It's true, but they you know, there, you can't be 288 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: this large without having critics as well as fans, right, 289 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: opponents as well as supporters. Yeah. According to Business Week, 290 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: the firm is ridiculed, reviled, and and revered depending on 291 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 1: one's perspective, which makes complete sense. That's what we're talking about. 292 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: If you're on the front lines with McKenzie, or rather 293 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 1: mackenzie is on your front lines, you're probably liking them 294 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: a lot because it does seem like they're pretty accommodating 295 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: and are going to get whatever job done you need done. 296 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: There's one quote that I kept seeing float around which 297 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: said that amidst the leaders of the business world, it 298 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: was just saying that you can't be fired for hiring Mackenzie. Well, 299 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: so they also seem to be dependable, at least in 300 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,479 Speaker 1: certain circles. Let's talk about some of these statistics. They 301 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: have over a hundred and twenty offices. Uh, they have 302 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: a force of fourteen thousand consultants. Uh. They've been in 303 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: business for almost a century now, ninety plus years. And 304 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: one of the key murky pieces of Mackenzie is it's 305 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: alumni who are a hugely influential force. More current and 306 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: former fortune five hundred CEOs are alumni of Mackenzie than 307 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: any other company. I think they have the highest chance 308 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: to become CEOs in general. It's like one and six ninety, 309 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: which sounds like tough odds, but that's a hugely favorable number. Okay, 310 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:14,479 Speaker 1: so two things here, Um, they're they're being consultants and 311 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: partners and then they end up becoming CEOs. That's what 312 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: we're saying here of these giant corporations. Okay, we're not 313 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: talking about like a pod people situation like CIA infiltration. 314 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: Replacing CEOs with Mackenzie are we I don't know. I mean, 315 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: it is a there is a revolving door argument, but 316 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: it's not. It's not a public private revolution. It's private private. Yeah, 317 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: it really is. I guess that's true. So people do also, 318 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: alumni do also go into public service. That's what I 319 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,959 Speaker 1: was gonna say, alumni go into public service. But then 320 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: I wonder, I do wonder how many public servants end 321 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: up at the Mackenzie Group as like a side gig. 322 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: But it seems like it would be a very demanding 323 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,479 Speaker 1: job and not exactly a retirement. It's yeah, it's a 324 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: pretty rigorous system internally. Uh. They have a churn of 325 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: about one fifth of their workforce a year because they 326 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: practice something called upper out, which means that you're either 327 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: getting promoted or being kicked out. Dang they know, which 328 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: is another part of the lens to their credibility. Right Yeah, Okay, 329 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: no dying on the vine. They're just GTFO or you're 330 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: hired and promoted. If you search on YouTube now you'll 331 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 1: see a lot of pretty fascinating videos from people we're 332 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 1: talking about how to get through the Mackensey hiring process. 333 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: That's those are the number one hits. More so, than 334 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: the any idea of a McKenzie cover up, first step 335 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: hack the person that you're going to be interviewed by. 336 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: How do you know they haven't already hacked you? How 337 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: do you know you weren't already selected? You know what 338 00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: I mean? So officially, well, let's look at the official stance. Officially, 339 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: mackenzie describes itself as what you said, met a quote 340 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: global management consulting firm that serves a broad mix of private, public, 341 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: and social sector institutions. So they're active and nonprofits, they're 342 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: active in private corporations, and they're active in mechanisms of 343 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 1: the state. It also it doesn't make a secret of 344 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: its alumni actions. It's it's pretty proud of the work 345 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: of its former employees. Yeah, according to its own website, 346 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: quote alumni number more than thirty four thousand and working 347 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: virtually every business sector in a hundred and twenty countries. 348 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: Through formal events and informal networking, former McKenzie consultants make 349 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: and sustain professional relationships. This dynamic network is a lasting 350 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: benefit of a McKenzie career. So once you're in, you're in. 351 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: And there's there's another thing that's weird here. The clients 352 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: were not meant to be recruited, uh, in like a 353 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: cold call situation. As a McKenzie person, you are expected 354 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: to be active in community events beyond the boards of things, 355 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 1: go to religious events and religious services, and informally become 356 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 1: friends with people, people in power obviously, and then build 357 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 1: a relationship from there. So nepotism is nepotism and informal 358 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: social relationships are a huge part of the process of 359 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: the workflow of the management accounting. Yeah, do you think 360 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: we've ever run into somebody from the Mackenzie group. I have, Yeah, 361 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,959 Speaker 1: you have had had one of these things from your 362 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: past life or your current life. So at first Mackenzie 363 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: appears to be a powerful multinational company. Right. They have 364 00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 1: interest in everything from cancer research to nonprofit initiative. It 365 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: is agricultural and stuff and much much more. This is 366 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: not particularly unusual in the modern day. Mackenzie is not 367 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: the only game in town here. But the thing is, 368 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 1: critics alleged there's much much more to Mackenzie than its 369 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 1: shining public image may lead you to believe. And we'll 370 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: learn about that after a quick word from our sponsor. 371 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: Our sponsor was the Mackenzie Yeah, this episode of stuff 372 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know is brought to you 373 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: by the firm. Here's where it gets crazy. There's a 374 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 1: net of nepotism, that's what we're describing. And much of 375 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: the criticism concerning Mackenzie comes from the activities of its 376 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: former employees. We we mentioned that they have uh noticeably 377 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: significantly higher chance of becoming CEO s of very prestigious companies, 378 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,959 Speaker 1: but they do end up having their hands in a 379 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 1: lot of pots, their fingers and a lot of pies. 380 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: And most of the time that you hear someone criticizing 381 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: this organization, they're going to be talking about one of 382 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: any number of scandals. As we explore this, to be 383 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: absolutely fair, we have to point out that Mackenzie can 384 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 1: make an argument where they say, well, this was happening 385 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: because some member of our company or some group within 386 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: our company did this, but the company overall did not 387 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: know about this. We are unaware. Yeah, when you have 388 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: all those tendrils, fourteen thousand of them or so, you 389 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: you it's hard to point the finger, especially if they're 390 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: a consultant for somebody else, right, and that that is 391 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: a valid argument to make. They'll also say that, look, 392 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: we just advise as these clients, we don't decide things 393 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: for them. And while that is true, it is also 394 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: true that since UH for years Mackenzie has either been 395 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 1: directly involved in or closely associated with a number of 396 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: huge scandals. Reuters even described these incidents entire as indicative 397 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: of not a few bad apples, not a couple of 398 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: unscrupulous people in the company, but instead as a culture 399 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: of corruption. So we can we can look through a 400 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: few of these and we'll we'll give let's give the 401 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: bare bones, the one oh one, because each of these 402 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: UH subjects that we're about to mention, each one is 403 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 1: the tip of a much larger iceberg, right, and then 404 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: there's a lot going on under the water. Let's start 405 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: with South Africa. Is that okay? Yeah, I'm talking about 406 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: the power company that was kind of in dire straits 407 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: at the time, and Transnet as well. So the story 408 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: starts with the Gupta family, no relation to UH, the 409 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: former head of Mackenzie, a guy who also had the 410 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: last time Gupta totally unrelated. This Gupta family, it's a 411 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: wealthy Indian born South African family who are best known 412 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: for owning a business empire that spans computer equipment, media 413 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: mining and so on, and it had close ties to 414 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: Jacob Zuma during his presidency. Here's what happened. They found 415 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: out the Gupta family had strategically placed corrupt people in 416 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: various parts of the South African government and and if 417 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: it's infrastructure and its utility sectors. And the idea is 418 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: that mackenzie was complicit in this corruption and they were 419 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: using their connection with his family to get consulting contracts 420 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: from places like s Com and Transnet, these are state 421 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: owned companies. And then they provided they worked with someone 422 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: called Trillion Capital Partners t R I L L I 423 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: A N to provide like seventy five million dollars worth 424 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: of services and then Trillion got a commission off that 425 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: for facilitating the business. And then uh, they were found 426 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,479 Speaker 1: I don't want to say caught red handed, but caught, 427 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: uh pink handed light red handed with in the midst 428 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: of acts of bribery and corruption and payments to this 429 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: capital partner. And eventually South Africa's government in early two 430 00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: thousand eighteen found that McKenzie and Trillion have been involved 431 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: in fraud, theft, corruption and money laundering. So yeah, so 432 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: this is this is a big time financial crime. Right 433 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: if if it's true and the the like, Okay, Mackenzie 434 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: has hired legal teams to defend them. Surprised they can 435 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: afford a ton of lawyers, right. I know that they 436 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: When they were first getting in bed with a lot 437 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: of these companies, specifically with the s Com one, they 438 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: were looking at a contract for like seven million dollars 439 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: for the firm to come in And that's just one 440 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: piece of it. Working with the people that the Gupta 441 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: family was involved with, Like the money that was was 442 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: at stake, And I'm thinking about that connected up to 443 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: their values about only doing things that they know they 444 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: can do and only you know, telling the client the 445 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: truth all the time and all this stuff and not 446 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: putting the money above everything else. This feels like maybe 447 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: this was a slip up where the money was above 448 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: everything else. Is it a thing where it's not about 449 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: the money though, it's about sending a message? Because what 450 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: if they felt it was necessary too purposefully cripple s Com, 451 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: which is an electricity provider and trans Net, which is 452 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: the rail and pipeline firm. What if they felt it 453 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: was not only necessary to do that, but what if 454 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: they felt they could do it well, whoa you know 455 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: what I mean. So there was an even higher level 456 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: of the playing field that was going on. Yeah what 457 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: if I don't think they accidentally did this? Man, at 458 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: this level, it's a really tall milkshake to say that 459 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: someone just consistently screwed the pooch multiple times at the 460 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: perfect time to make things terrible, you know what I mean. 461 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: So maybe that was part of it. But that's that's 462 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: just one example, and we could probably do a whole 463 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,959 Speaker 1: episode on that one. Uh. There's also the Galleon insider 464 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: trading scandal. This is where the different group that comes in. 465 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: So there's a guy named Rajat Gupta who was a 466 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: former mackenzie senior executive. He was running the ship no 467 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: relation again to the group, to family in South Africa. 468 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: And a guy named a Neil Kumar. These two guys 469 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: and some others were convicted in a government investigation into 470 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: insider trading for sharing inside information with hedge fund ownor 471 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: UH the owner of a hedge fund called Galleon Group, 472 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: a guy named Raj Raja not Rum. Although McKenzie itself 473 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: the company was not accused of any wrongdoing, the convictions 474 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: were incredibly embarrassing for the firm because it prides itself 475 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: on not telling its clients business right on client confidentiality. 476 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: And there's a senior partner, Neil Kamar, who described or 477 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: he has been described as the protege of Gupta. He 478 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: he left the after these allegations, started servicing in two 479 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: thousand nine, and then he ended up pleading guilty in 480 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: January two thousand ten. And um, it's well, okay, So 481 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: while this guy and some of the other partners had 482 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: been pitching Mackenzie's like services, their consulting services to this 483 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: Galleon group, Kumar and this uh Rajar Rottenham fellow, they 484 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: reached this, they reached a private consulting agreement, which I'm 485 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: interested in. So just kind of behind closed doors, they 486 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: reached an agreement that violated Mackenzie's policies on confidentiality, which, okay, 487 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: again we see them kind of maybe breaking their own 488 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: rules a little bit. Yeah, yeah, that's that's the if. 489 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: If they really are breaking the rules. If they are 490 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: breaking the rules, are the rules just outward facing, I 491 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: don't know. So. In October of two thousand eleven, Gupta 492 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: was arrested by the FBI on criminal charges of sharing 493 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: insider information from these confidential board meetings with Rajaratnam. Gupta 494 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: was convicted in June of two thousand twelve on four 495 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: counts of conspiracy and securities fraud and then was acquitted 496 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: on two counts. So he did ultimately get found guilty 497 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: of some stuff. And the big questions here are things 498 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 1: like how aware was mackenzie and company of this activity? 499 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: Were they somehow complicit? Were they? Was he was he 500 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 1: relying on the network in some to some degree? The 501 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: answers probably, yes, yeah, I would, I would think so. 502 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: And it's a weird great and it's not great, but 503 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,839 Speaker 1: it feels like a gray area here. Insider trading this 504 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: idea that if you have these close connections between um, 505 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: the company that is valued at a certain amount that 506 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: you're betting on is going to increase in value, and 507 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 1: then you're a hedge fund owner that is placing those 508 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:07,280 Speaker 1: values and somehow you've got this consultancy group that perhaps 509 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: touches both things. I don't know that it puts tremendous 510 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: power in that third party that that has that connection, 511 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: because if you want to, you can pull those strings, 512 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: or you can threaten to pull those strings I don't 513 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: know that. Mmm. They just got caught, that's it. They 514 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: got caught doing what what? Maybe they're kind of set 515 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: up to do ben, That's the thing. So insider trading 516 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: is so at least at least in our country here 517 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 1: in the United States, insider trading is such a a 518 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: hazy concept, you know, yeah, because it's not you sharing 519 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: anything necessarily in this setup, you know, in a way, 520 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: it's a consultancy group, it's a partners that it's connected, 521 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: but really not that connected. And at this level, the 522 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:09,919 Speaker 1: laws are pretty rigorous about this, but they can also 523 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:17,760 Speaker 1: be fairly complicated. So insider trading occurs all the time 524 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: in the United States. For a while. For a long time, actually, 525 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 1: members of the US Congress were not subject to the 526 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:31,720 Speaker 1: same insider trading laws that everybody else was, in theory 527 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: subject to. That checks out, man. Sure, if you're in 528 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 1: the Senate, you've gotta be able to grease those palms somehow, 529 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: and if you could do it on your own time, 530 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 1: and it's not somebody else greeezing your palm. Wait, no, 531 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: it is somebody else. Oh wait, oh it's corruption, Oh god, 532 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: oh no, some of us are more equal than others. Right. Yeah, 533 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: So let's pause here for a word from our sponsor 534 00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: and return to some more tales from the Black Book 535 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: of the Mackenzie Company. Get ready for Enron. It's coming. 536 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: We're back in how pressy And yes, you are correct, 537 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: my friends. And Ron. So Enron was the creation of 538 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: a guy named Jeff Skilling. Jeff Skilling was mackenzie consultant 539 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: for twenty one years and when Enron collapsed, he actually 540 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: went to jail. He did relatively rare for a lot 541 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: of financial crimes. Uh. Mackenzie reportedly fully endorsed the dubious 542 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: accounting methods that caused the company to implode in two 543 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 1: thousand and one, and Enron reportedly used Mackenzie for twenty 544 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 1: different projects. And it became a situation where mackenzie consultants 545 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: would say, you know what, and Ron is kind of 546 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: a sandbox for us. Let's just let's shake things up. 547 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: Let's roll the dice, make it interesting, vague, it's baby, Yeah, 548 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,399 Speaker 1: let's see what we can do, like we can get 549 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: away with does this make money if we just say 550 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: this or we just do this. It's pretty brilliant. And 551 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,319 Speaker 1: if you've ever seen the documentary it's called Enron the 552 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 1: smartest guys in the room. I would recommend it highly. 553 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 1: Go check it out if you get a chance. Find 554 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: it somewhere. Um, we have we done an Enron episode? 555 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't know if we have. We've 556 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: talked about it a lot. Um. I think it's worth it, 557 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: like just taking this, expanding it out in the whole episode, 558 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,319 Speaker 1: just because there's there are a lot of details in 559 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 1: here about the weirdness that occurred there. Right, Okay, so 560 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: it's the high level, quick and dirty look at this. Uh. 561 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:46,399 Speaker 1: Enron was the largest bankruptcy reorganization in American history at 562 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: its time. It was also called the biggest failure of 563 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 1: an audit. UH. The scandal went public in October two 564 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: thousand one. Enron was an energy company based in Houston, Texas, 565 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: and it is formed five. Uh. So you're doing the 566 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,759 Speaker 1: whole episode right now? This is a whole episode. Yes, 567 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: it's like the hero of the facts sections. I can 568 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: feel it. Well. A lot of people went to jail. Uh. 569 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 1: It had until I think until world Com went bankrupt 570 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: the very next year. And Ron was the largest corporate 571 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: bankruptcy in history because I think it was valued at 572 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: sixty three point four billion dollars and then it all 573 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:36,799 Speaker 1: went to put. Yeah, just so maybe we'll do an 574 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: en run episode. Yeah, that should be worth it. It 575 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: might be dry a little bit, but I think we 576 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: can pull some stuff out of there, just from the 577 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 1: insanity of our financial systems, like as they work with 578 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 1: the energy companies and the actual energy prices and just 579 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,319 Speaker 1: all of these the way it's all interconnected, the way 580 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,839 Speaker 1: that sometimes to turn a law to profit. Uh, we 581 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: will have tankers of oil waiting just off the coast, right, 582 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:14,360 Speaker 1: That's happened before. I mean that's you know, during the depression, 583 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 1: people were starving to death in urban areas while farmers 584 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 1: were just slaughtering pigs wholesale and then throwing milk in 585 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,279 Speaker 1: a creek in an attempt to raise the prices. Burn 586 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 1: that wheat field man. This is the point where a 587 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: consultant would come in and say, hey, we can improve 588 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: this workflow, and they might be right, you know what 589 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a reason that the consultancy industry exists. 590 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,239 Speaker 1: If only the peaky blinders excuse me, the mckensey group. 591 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: We're around back then, Wait not so in two thousand 592 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: and eight, do you remember the financial crisis. Oh do 593 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:57,799 Speaker 1: I you have a tattoo of it? Yeah, everything that 594 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 1: happened and there's that's crazy because the tattoo, it's just 595 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:07,279 Speaker 1: nothing because nothing changed. Bleak. I love it. So McKenzie 596 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:15,720 Speaker 1: Mackenzie gets accused of being a prime mover in the 597 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 1: financial crisis, which because they were allegedly promoting the securitization 598 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:28,840 Speaker 1: of mortgage assets and asking banks to fund their operations 599 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 1: with a lot of debt, and according to you know, 600 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 1: their critics, this led to a poisoning of the global 601 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: financial system and created ultimately that two thousand eight meltdown. 602 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,719 Speaker 1: There's a great article on this. There are several great 603 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,799 Speaker 1: articles on this, but one that will mention the financial 604 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,760 Speaker 1: crisis littleple war detail is Mackenzie how does it always 605 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:55,880 Speaker 1: get away with it? By a guy named Ben Chew 606 00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: writing for The Independent and what what they eventually came 607 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: out in the wash about this was something incredibly despicable 608 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:16,360 Speaker 1: that ties in with their activities with insurance. So mackenzie 609 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:20,880 Speaker 1: and company sold major insurers at places like all State 610 00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,280 Speaker 1: a new business model that was designed to turn claims 611 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 1: into profits. Their strategy was known as good hands or 612 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: boxing gloves, and yeah, uh, this really came into the 613 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 1: public eye during some during Hurricane Katrina. Uh The idea 614 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:45,239 Speaker 1: was that internally, we would aim to make the process 615 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,080 Speaker 1: of filing for claims too difficult for people who were 616 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 1: policy holders and too expensive and time consuming for lawyers 617 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,760 Speaker 1: to want to take the case, leaving insurance firms undisputed 618 00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:01,320 Speaker 1: as they delayed or denied claims. Here's how the model worked. 619 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 1: This is incredibly unethical. They would offer deliberately lower settlement 620 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,720 Speaker 1: to any policy holder who files a claim, much lower 621 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,040 Speaker 1: than they're actually entitled to according to what their insurance 622 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:18,320 Speaker 1: agreement is. If you accept the lower payment than boom, 623 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,880 Speaker 1: your claim is resolved liquid e split. If you say, hey, 624 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,239 Speaker 1: this says that I'm supposed to have X amount of cash. 625 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: Why did you give me why amount of money? They 626 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:33,440 Speaker 1: will say we have to if you're denying the settlement, 627 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,360 Speaker 1: we have to process this claim, and that will be 628 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: delayed and delayed and delayed forever until the policy holders 629 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 1: are finally forced to accept the payment or just give 630 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 1: up altogether. That's in addition to this, A guy named 631 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,479 Speaker 1: nave Deep Aurora was convicted for illegally depleting state farm 632 00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,319 Speaker 1: of over five d thousand dollars over a period of 633 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 1: eight years in cahoots with a state farm employee. So 634 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 1: in addition to creating this model that says, hey, you're 635 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:13,399 Speaker 1: an insurance company, Uh, don't do your job and try 636 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,799 Speaker 1: to build people out of it and then pay us 637 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,440 Speaker 1: for telling you to do that, Uh, certain employees were 638 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,840 Speaker 1: also stealing money from the company. In addition, God, no 639 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:28,799 Speaker 1: thank you, Yeah, no thanks. Uh. They've also been associated 640 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: with pharmaceutical I don't know if you call them scandals 641 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:38,240 Speaker 1: but controversies. Uh. There's a company called Valiant, Canadian pharmaceutical 642 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,719 Speaker 1: company that was investigated by the SEC. They've been accused 643 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: of cooking their books and of using predatory price hikes 644 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 1: to boost growth. The Financial Times had an intriguing statement here, Matt. 645 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 1: They said, Valiance downfall is not exactly Mackenzie's fault, but 646 00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:02,880 Speaker 1: it's fingerprints are everywhere. Jeez okay, yeah, I mean, what 647 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: are you doing that? Three out of six of the 648 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 1: senior exex were recent Mackenzie employees, and the the chair 649 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,719 Speaker 1: of the Talent and Compensation committee was also an ex Mackenzie. 650 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 1: It feels it feels like Mackenzie has this like part 651 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,239 Speaker 1: time upright citizens brigade gig where they go around like 652 00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,400 Speaker 1: the Move, like the TV show, not like just the 653 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:29,560 Speaker 1: emperorv Group where they're just wreaking havoc everywhere and chaos 654 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: on purpose just to see what they can get away with. Yeah, 655 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,319 Speaker 1: it sounds like that. And we have to ask if 656 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,719 Speaker 1: we're just hearing about the bad cases that made it 657 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,680 Speaker 1: to court. We most certainly are. I think that's without 658 00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,799 Speaker 1: a doubt. But the bad cases are pretty pretty bad. 659 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 1: And would the cases that are considered successful for the 660 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: client and the company be considered successful for other people 661 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,359 Speaker 1: where they publicized because this this kind of company can 662 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:05,759 Speaker 1: do multiple things, but one of the things a consultancy 663 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,440 Speaker 1: is often going to be associated with is quote unquote 664 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:15,200 Speaker 1: streamlining fire the workforce, pay the pay the upper level 665 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:20,120 Speaker 1: management more or give them a sweetheart, golden parachute walk 666 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,200 Speaker 1: away deal kind of thing. And their competitors have also 667 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,399 Speaker 1: complained about unfair business practices. There was a court case 668 00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,719 Speaker 1: in two thousand eighteen uh Mackenzie went to court over 669 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:35,239 Speaker 1: allegations from competitors that was purposely misleading or misinforming clients 670 00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:41,960 Speaker 1: by not telling the whole truth essentially or as little 671 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,400 Speaker 1: of the truth as they could get away with because 672 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 1: it wouldn't it wouldn't disclose conflicts like conflicts of interest, 673 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,040 Speaker 1: And this comes into play later, right, So like, if 674 00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,280 Speaker 1: you are what's the easiest way to put it? Okay, 675 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:08,759 Speaker 1: let's say that, Um, I'm Mackenzie Group and you are 676 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:17,600 Speaker 1: a credit here of financier and you hire me to 677 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:24,560 Speaker 1: bail out. Uh. Let's say nol has Um a bankrupt 678 00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:30,920 Speaker 1: headphone company. The headphone mill is in trouble and it's bankrupt. Uh, 679 00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,799 Speaker 1: you're in charge of how this bankruptcy happens. You go 680 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:39,279 Speaker 1: to me, Mackenzie and say, here's a couple of mill, 681 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,399 Speaker 1: here's a cool, cool few mill. What's the best way 682 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,000 Speaker 1: to restructure this? How do we determine who gets paid what? 683 00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:47,680 Speaker 1: And I say, all right, I've got the perfect plan, 684 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,600 Speaker 1: but I don't tell you that as you and I 685 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,520 Speaker 1: were cracking this deal, I went through a different company 686 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,120 Speaker 1: and bought up a ton of this debt. So now 687 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,920 Speaker 1: what I'm doing is saying, well, you gotta pay that 688 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,640 Speaker 1: or not been incorporated first. You know what I mean. 689 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,400 Speaker 1: And then so like, okay, well you're the expert, and 690 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:12,600 Speaker 1: so you pay not been incorporated first. Then on top 691 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:14,960 Speaker 1: of that, cool mill, I've got all this other money 692 00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:19,880 Speaker 1: with you know. That's that's a very very very oversimplified 693 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,439 Speaker 1: version of how that kind of thing would work. It's 694 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:27,719 Speaker 1: also illegal, and you can see why it is. I'm 695 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:32,120 Speaker 1: just having this thought here. This is such a a 696 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:37,960 Speaker 1: rich person's thing, this idea of a consultant in this way, 697 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,880 Speaker 1: this type of partner, and that's why it exists at 698 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,440 Speaker 1: these higher levels. Only CEO is only um the top 699 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:49,640 Speaker 1: levels of the white collar amongst the world. Here of 700 00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,319 Speaker 1: paying somebody a lot of money to figure out how 701 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:57,919 Speaker 1: you need to structure your payments for something, because you've 702 00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,840 Speaker 1: got this massive amount of money that needs to go 703 00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,640 Speaker 1: out in these different places. You've got this massive amound 704 00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:08,600 Speaker 1: money that needs to be um shuttled along in some way. 705 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:12,160 Speaker 1: But I don't have time for that with all this money. 706 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:14,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna bring somebody else in to do it. And 707 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,879 Speaker 1: no wonder like corruption, even just to the amount we're 708 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:22,200 Speaker 1: discussing here, occurs when you're talking about that level of money. 709 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:27,320 Speaker 1: My god, somebody is going to think about themselves. And again, 710 00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:33,239 Speaker 1: this is a huge company. So in their defense, they're saying, well, 711 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:39,279 Speaker 1: look if something happens and it's illegal or it's incorrect, 712 00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,400 Speaker 1: then we will we will fix it. Yeah no, absolutely, 713 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,759 Speaker 1: not speaking against the company. I just think it's that 714 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,640 Speaker 1: is human nature when you're dealing with this kind of thing. 715 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:54,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. So just for an example, 716 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,960 Speaker 1: they said that they wanted to they they overhauled their 717 00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:06,120 Speaker 1: South Africa office, apparently after after US dealing such debilitating 718 00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:11,560 Speaker 1: damage to s Common and Transnet, and then the stories continued. 719 00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:16,440 Speaker 1: So in the case of the US Immigrations and Customs 720 00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:20,840 Speaker 1: Enforcement or ICE, Mackenzie stopped working with them after it 721 00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:23,240 Speaker 1: was disclosed the firm had done more than twenty million 722 00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:27,200 Speaker 1: dollars worth of consulting work for the agency. And this 723 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,800 Speaker 1: is where we hear an explicit version of that defense. 724 00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,840 Speaker 1: A managing partner said the contract, which was not widely 725 00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:37,200 Speaker 1: known until The New York Times reported it, to people 726 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:40,120 Speaker 1: in the company itself. According to them, he said it 727 00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,880 Speaker 1: had rightly raised concerns, So they're not going to do 728 00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,719 Speaker 1: it anymore. That is odd for ICE to be having 729 00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:54,680 Speaker 1: a relationship with Mackenzie. Why is it? Why PR and 730 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:58,920 Speaker 1: they're not a PR firm. It could be workflow, I guess, 731 00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,200 Speaker 1: so it could be something along the lines of how 732 00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:08,600 Speaker 1: do we move the most people. How do we uh, 733 00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:12,319 Speaker 1: that's interesting, like monitoring of a border or something, or 734 00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 1: what is our process for it could be something that's 735 00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,680 Speaker 1: innocuous is how do we handle records? You know what 736 00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:21,360 Speaker 1: I mean? Any number of things it could be and 737 00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:23,640 Speaker 1: just setting up facilities that kind of thing. I wonder 738 00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:28,680 Speaker 1: if that had anything to do it interesting. So one 739 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:33,560 Speaker 1: one other one that we would be remiss if we 740 00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:38,239 Speaker 1: didn't touch on is Mackenzie's work with authoritarian regimes and 741 00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:42,560 Speaker 1: business and policy support for regimes. It comes in the 742 00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:46,600 Speaker 1: news every so often, and again, long time listeners, you 743 00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:50,160 Speaker 1: recall that regime is the word people use instead of 744 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,279 Speaker 1: government when they don't want to, when they don't want 745 00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:58,279 Speaker 1: you to think another country's government is legitimate. So North 746 00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,719 Speaker 1: Korea calls the U. S Government US regime, and the 747 00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:06,440 Speaker 1: US calls North Korea the North Korean regime. Absolutely, So, 748 00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,000 Speaker 1: if you ever want to know how your country feels 749 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,319 Speaker 1: about another country, just see who they see who they 750 00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:17,920 Speaker 1: call a regime. It is. It is such a simplistic shortcut, 751 00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,719 Speaker 1: but I guarantee you it works. It's very true, and 752 00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:25,359 Speaker 1: now I'm seeing it in my head. It doesn't mean 753 00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,919 Speaker 1: those countries are automatically a legitimate you know how your 754 00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:35,239 Speaker 1: rulers feel about them. The Iranian regime for sure, right. Uh, 755 00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:38,279 Speaker 1: these are the phrases they get thrown around, and I'm 756 00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,480 Speaker 1: sure there's plenty of we were always at war with 757 00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,680 Speaker 1: East Asia kind of stuff going on there too. But 758 00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:48,359 Speaker 1: in Mackenzie's case, they popped up in the news quite 759 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:52,600 Speaker 1: recently in December of eighteen because there was this big 760 00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,640 Speaker 1: company retreat in China and it was held next to 761 00:52:55,920 --> 00:53:01,319 Speaker 1: the Chinese government internment camps where thousand of wagers are 762 00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:04,120 Speaker 1: being detained as we speak. And we did an episode 763 00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:08,920 Speaker 1: on this earlier in modern concentration camps. Yeah, that's an 764 00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:13,080 Speaker 1: odd place to have your lavish retreat. Oh, and we 765 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,120 Speaker 1: also have a list here of I guess some prominent 766 00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:19,680 Speaker 1: clients that mackenzie has worked for. Um, let's see the 767 00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:23,399 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia regime. No, I'm just kidding. It's the monarchy there, Um, 768 00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:28,399 Speaker 1: Turkey's autocratic leader or the gun And let's see, Oh, 769 00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,600 Speaker 1: the president of Ukraine who was ousted. It's a former 770 00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:37,480 Speaker 1: president Victor Um. Yeah, Yanokovich, I believe i Kovich that's it. 771 00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,920 Speaker 1: And then several other Chinese and Russian companies who are 772 00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,760 Speaker 1: under or were under sanctions, heavy sanctions at the time. 773 00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:47,600 Speaker 1: People to Mackenzie just swoops in and says, you guys 774 00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:51,400 Speaker 1: need some help. Well, guess what this hand. It's very helpful. 775 00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:55,799 Speaker 1: And don't worry. It doesn't know what the left hand does, right, 776 00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:57,799 Speaker 1: or at least it doesn't talk to the left hand, 777 00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,400 Speaker 1: my friends. Yeah, so let's just trading. If it's a 778 00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:04,640 Speaker 1: trading thing, then we can make something else of right. 779 00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:09,000 Speaker 1: So what what we're exploring then, or what we have 780 00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:13,799 Speaker 1: explored today, is the story of a company that operates 781 00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:19,560 Speaker 1: largely out of the headlines the halls of power. It's 782 00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,560 Speaker 1: it's a power behind the throne, you know, sort of 783 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:31,120 Speaker 1: this corporate vizier that advises um companies, corporations, countries in power, 784 00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:37,759 Speaker 1: and many times it comes into conflict with the law, 785 00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:42,000 Speaker 1: with various countries legal systems. So the question is are 786 00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:45,200 Speaker 1: we seeing just the bad stuff are we? Are we 787 00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:49,400 Speaker 1: only hearing about Mackenzie when there's a problem. Well, we 788 00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:53,680 Speaker 1: are hearing a lot about Mackenzie's problems when they pop up, 789 00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:56,680 Speaker 1: and there does seem to be a pattern. Are we 790 00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:00,960 Speaker 1: being unfair when we say that this or organization is 791 00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:04,399 Speaker 1: committing crime, or our journalists being unfair when they say that, 792 00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:08,440 Speaker 1: we'd like to we'd like to hear from you, so 793 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:10,920 Speaker 1: let us know what you think of this. In the meantime, 794 00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:15,160 Speaker 1: for conclusions, Mackenzie is not going away anytime soon. We 795 00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:19,960 Speaker 1: are not kicking someone while they're down in any way. 796 00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:24,480 Speaker 1: And from their perspective, again, they don't actually do these things. 797 00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:28,040 Speaker 1: They advise clients. The clients take it from there, but 798 00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:33,000 Speaker 1: not everyone's buying this. One last note. In January this month, 799 00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:37,160 Speaker 1: a bankruptcy case just got reopened here in the US, 800 00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:41,640 Speaker 1: alleging Mackenzie was illegally making money off bankruptcy cases it 801 00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:45,880 Speaker 1: became involved with, and more so than it has established 802 00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,360 Speaker 1: a pattern of doing this, that this is not a 803 00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:54,440 Speaker 1: one off thing but something more akin to a business practice. 804 00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:58,520 Speaker 1: I'm just putting this out here. This whole story reminds 805 00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,200 Speaker 1: me of a movie that I saw way back when, 806 00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:03,680 Speaker 1: I say, way back in the day, over ten years ago, 807 00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:08,120 Speaker 1: called Michael Clayton that it's stars, I want to say, 808 00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,719 Speaker 1: George Clooney and oh god, I can't remember. I think 809 00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:15,080 Speaker 1: Tilda Swinton's in it too. It's this fantastic movie where 810 00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,400 Speaker 1: there's this what they called a fixer would come through. 811 00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,719 Speaker 1: And that's what this whole thing feels like to me. Fixers, 812 00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:24,879 Speaker 1: that's what it is. I think in my head. That's 813 00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,680 Speaker 1: how I'm how I'm choosing to view Mackenzie, which I'm 814 00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,920 Speaker 1: sure is just a a shallow view of what it 815 00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:32,839 Speaker 1: is and what it actually is. But that's what it 816 00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,399 Speaker 1: feels like to me, and I wonder if you feel 817 00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,480 Speaker 1: that same way. Let us know. Yeah, and a look, 818 00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:44,080 Speaker 1: and also, consultant firms aren't inherently bad right now, you're 819 00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:48,120 Speaker 1: just getting something done efficiently. I think that's it. Well, 820 00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:52,160 Speaker 1: you're getting someone's opinion. Yeah, that's what it consulted. Like, 821 00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,000 Speaker 1: here's my opinion based on my experience. This is what 822 00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:59,440 Speaker 1: I advise, right Uh. And plenty of people have done 823 00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:04,240 Speaker 1: can salting work before I've done it, not on this level, um, 824 00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,640 Speaker 1: but it you know. I just want to emphasize that 825 00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:10,480 Speaker 1: we're not saying all these firms are are terrible. We're 826 00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:14,600 Speaker 1: not saying that everyone involved is a bad guy. But 827 00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:18,680 Speaker 1: we are saying that Mackenzie has a lot of stuff 828 00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,040 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know, and it goes way 829 00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:23,800 Speaker 1: beyond just who their clients are and what they do 830 00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:28,200 Speaker 1: for those clients, it goes into court cases, it goes 831 00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:33,400 Speaker 1: into collapsing uh state sector industries, it goes into tons 832 00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:37,120 Speaker 1: of dirty money. And this is you know, at that point, 833 00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:40,720 Speaker 1: those statements are not our opinion. They're the opinion of 834 00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:45,640 Speaker 1: legal systems of courts. So it's not even us saying 835 00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:47,760 Speaker 1: it at this point, you know what I mean? No? 836 00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:54,480 Speaker 1: Al Right, well, hey find us yeah on social media. Yeah, 837 00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:57,520 Speaker 1: you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Meet 838 00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:01,800 Speaker 1: your fellow listeners and talk about talk about Mackenzie Group 839 00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:05,960 Speaker 1: until they buy our corporation to shut us down. Where 840 00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:08,920 Speaker 1: here's where he gets crazy. That's our community page on Facebook. 841 00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,320 Speaker 1: You can find me on Instagram. I'm at them bowling. 842 00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:18,840 Speaker 1: Then that's not a Dora right, No, no, just making sure. 843 00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:23,200 Speaker 1: And these are not our gyles socks, these space socks. 844 00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:25,400 Speaker 1: Those are awesome, dude, I just have boring ones on 845 00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:28,760 Speaker 1: right now. They're awesome things. That makes you a better consultant. 846 00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:31,880 Speaker 1: I'm not distracting you. This is where we find out 847 00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:37,280 Speaker 1: that Paul Decond works for Mackenzie. Oh. I could totally 848 00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:40,040 Speaker 1: see Paul him doing it. Oh man, he cleans up, 849 00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:42,640 Speaker 1: He cleans up so nicely, and he's just like rolling 850 00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,680 Speaker 1: under the radar when he's in here as mission control. 851 00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,160 Speaker 1: I can see it doing a great job with it too. 852 00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:50,840 Speaker 1: Oh also, this has nothing to do with anything other 853 00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:53,240 Speaker 1: than maybe ending on a little bit of a lighter note. 854 00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:55,479 Speaker 1: H Paul, I don't know how you're going to feel 855 00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:58,200 Speaker 1: about this. And fellow listeners, you haven't heard Paul on 856 00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:02,320 Speaker 1: the air, but I was watching stand up from one 857 00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:08,480 Speaker 1: of uh one of my favorite comics, John Mullaney. I dude, 858 00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:12,720 Speaker 1: I thought Mullaney as you said that. And super producer 859 00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:16,920 Speaker 1: Paul Deckett. Do you remind me of John Mullaney in 860 00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:21,640 Speaker 1: the coolest way? Oh? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I could see, 861 00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:23,840 Speaker 1: I could see, I could see Paul Tellton some of 862 00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:26,320 Speaker 1: those stories. Oh man, I hope you grew up to 863 00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:29,000 Speaker 1: be like his character that he played on the Broadway 864 00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:32,640 Speaker 1: show that he did. I hope you. I hope you 865 00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:37,800 Speaker 1: come into that one day. But you're not making the 866 00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:41,800 Speaker 1: decision for him, you're advising him, right, True, that's true. 867 00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:44,040 Speaker 1: That's so if anything goes wrong with that, it's not 868 00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:47,480 Speaker 1: it's not your fault. Matt, Matt and co. Uh So, 869 00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:49,600 Speaker 1: thank you so much for tuning in. Please do let 870 00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:54,680 Speaker 1: us know what your take is on these things. Are 871 00:59:54,720 --> 01:00:00,080 Speaker 1: these companies something that should be in the world, are they? 872 01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Are they criminal organizations? Or are the opponents and critics 873 01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:09,200 Speaker 1: just being alarmist. You know, there's definitely stuff they want 874 01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:13,680 Speaker 1: you know, and everything indicates that several of those secrets 875 01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:17,120 Speaker 1: are secrets because they are a legal activity. But again, 876 01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:20,520 Speaker 1: a few bad apples, there's a whole bad orchard. Um, 877 01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:23,760 Speaker 1: I don't know. You can always can always argue the 878 01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:27,400 Speaker 1: bad apple thing in almost every situation. And you can 879 01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,800 Speaker 1: call us directly with your take one eight three three 880 01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:35,000 Speaker 1: st d w y t K. That's stuff they don't 881 01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:38,360 Speaker 1: want you to know, by the way, in letters. Uh 882 01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:41,240 Speaker 1: so call us, leave a message you may get on 883 01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:45,000 Speaker 1: the show. Okay, I guess that's it. And if you 884 01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:46,480 Speaker 1: don't want to do any of those things, send us 885 01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:49,960 Speaker 1: a good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at how 886 01:00:50,000 --> 01:01:11,320 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com.