1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, Welcome to How to Citizen with Baritune Day, a 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: podcast that reimagine citizen as a verb, not a legal status. 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 1: This season is all about tech and how it can 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: bring us together instead of tearing us apart. We're bringing 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: you the people using technology for so much more than 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: revenue and user growth. They're using it to help us citizen. 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: Take me to the scene and and paint a picture 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: for me of Bahrain, the place where you grew up. 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: I think Bahrain is honestly one of the most beautiful countries. 10 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: We're surrounded by watcher as an island obviously, but there's 11 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: palm trees. Um. I could do without the traffic because 12 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: we're also a very small country, you know. But what 13 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: I love about it so much is that everything is 14 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: community and family oriented, and it's oftentimes regardless of what 15 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: you think and who you are and how you feel. 16 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: When it's family time, it's family time. That's where you 17 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: get together and you eat that type of togetherness. It's 18 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: where everybody kinds of just melts together and it's chaos, 19 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: but it's beautiful chaos. You don't have as many fights 20 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: when you have these get togethers as because nobody can 21 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,919 Speaker 1: actually hear the other person. Everybody's just talking over people, 22 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: and it's like you're you're you're talking to somebody, but 23 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: you also have a mouthful of dates. It's a great 24 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: place to be, but it's also a terrifying place to be. 25 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: You want to be yourself, but you also can't. But 26 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: you also don't want to fault the communities and the 27 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: people there. For the most partits it's not our faults. 28 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: Of course, we are accountable, but it's not like we 29 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: can just rise up and say, hey, yeah, I would 30 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: disagree with this and we're going to do something about it, 31 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: because the consequences are dire. But you also love everything 32 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: that it stands for when it comes to community and 33 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: passion and people really care about each other. I mean, 34 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago we lost our house to 35 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: a fire. There's not a single person in the neighborhood 36 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: that didn't come to help us. This is Estra al Chaffe. 37 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: She's the founder of Masall, a network of digital platforms 38 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: that amplifies underrepresented voices. Today we're going to be focusing 39 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: on one of those platforms called Awa, a gamified social 40 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 1: media app designed for the l g B t q 41 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: I plus community. In the Middle East and North Africa. 42 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: What does that mean exactly? Well, imagine you were on 43 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: a social media app where you were anonymous but also safe. 44 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: Are you thinking baratun day? That's impossible. As long as 45 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: there's an Internet, there will be trolls and threats and surveillance. 46 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 1: Oh my, and I hear you trust me. I've got 47 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: haters too, But it's true. Eestra's built a platform where 48 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: kindness earns you points, and points give you access and 49 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 1: trolling that costs you points. But first, let's learn a 50 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: little bit about the person behind the platform. We forget 51 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: that sometimes, right there's always a person. Hello, Etra, how 52 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: are you doing. I'm doing very well. Thanks, how are you? 53 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: I'm doing well as well you should be if you're 54 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: talking to me, all right, and we're off to a 55 00:03:55,680 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: fiery start. I love it. Normally, when I'm doing these conversations, 56 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: I have the video of the person i'm speaking with 57 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: up and we can see each other. Your video is off, though, 58 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: why is that my video is a is off? And 59 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: that's for my safety. I've always been physically anonymous with 60 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: the type of work that I do, which is of 61 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: course human rights, working with vulnerable communities, including the lgbt 62 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: q I community in the Middle East and North Africa. 63 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: If I really want to continue doing this work, There's 64 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: only so much that I can do from the front line. 65 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: There's a lot that I need to keep underground, and 66 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: my physical anonymity is becoming harder and harder with the 67 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: types of different surveillance technologies that we have to protect, 68 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 1: Especially knowing that I'm amongst millions of activists that are 69 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: monitored and surveilled on a daily basis. It sounds massively 70 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: inconvenient and like something that takes a lot of energy 71 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: to try to remain anonymous in this way. Are there 72 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: any advantages to it? Absolutely? I mean, it's the reason 73 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: I'm speaking to you today. Um, I get to talk 74 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: about this work. When people go and give talks, they 75 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: know that this talk is going to be seen not 76 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: just by the people in the room, but by everybody. 77 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: Snippets of it are going to be on Twitter and 78 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: on YouTube and wherever you know it's going to be hosted. 79 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: And for me, I feel like it's going to stay 80 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: in that room and I can make very dark jokes 81 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: and get away with it. You really get to be 82 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: your authentic self without fearing for your life. I've seen 83 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: some of the work you've been up to and it 84 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: is positively, ridiculously impressive what you've been working on these 85 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: past many years, over a decade. Tell me about the 86 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: work you've dedicated yourself to over the years. Sure, So 87 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: I created Michelle dot org Um somewhere around two thousand five. 88 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: During that time, you know, this was before Twitter was big. 89 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: Facebook was still limited to a lot of colleges and 90 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: things like that, and not just anybody can can sign up, 91 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: So our treach was much more challenging because it was 92 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: hard to reach the communities that you wanted to reach. 93 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: What communities were you trying to reach? We were trying 94 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: to reach ourselves. I mean, we were just young people 95 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: at the time in a country that made censorship the norm. 96 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: Where you go to school and there's certain information that 97 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: you can't find and can talk about where you go 98 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: in the household, and people are scared to talk about 99 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: certain things. But you see the injustices around you, but 100 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: you keep it to yourself, and it's a traumatic situation 101 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: to do that. That's really what got me interested in 102 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: creating a platform where when we see an injustice, we 103 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: can talk about it we can talk about how migrant 104 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: workers are being treated in our country, how corrupt leaders 105 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: were getting away with insane policies that were keeping us 106 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: away from our own dignity. We wanted to talk to 107 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: and with communities that were completely visible at the time 108 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: and had to be for security reasons. These were really 109 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: the communities that we wanted to make sure that they 110 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: felt welcome, that we wanted to build something inclusive, and 111 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: that it wasn't going to be just about us. It 112 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: was going to be just a space where we can 113 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: just share our stories and speak with people that we 114 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: were discouraged from even acknowledging. What are you not allowed 115 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: to say that has such direct consequences? I mean, first 116 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: and for most, it's it's not to democracy. We don't 117 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: have to say politically, how things are run, what policies 118 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: are being enforced upon. US government issues a statement, you 119 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: do this, we do it. There's direct consequences we need 120 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: don't So that's for me, a big part of the 121 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: fear no fair trial. So if you're an activist and 122 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: you get accused of something, sometimes even a tweet criticizing 123 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: a member of parliament, you will get arrested for that 124 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: and there are laws now that have been revised where 125 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: there are certain tweets that there are social media crimes, 126 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: but what makes a social media crime criticism. So it's 127 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: a scary situation to live in that type of environment, 128 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: and it's not something that is unique to Behrain, it's 129 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: really everywhere we went. So even when we would travel 130 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: to neighboring countries, we have to be very very conservative 131 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: in what we are expressing because as much as we 132 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: are changing, we are getting a lot of pushback from 133 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: really well resourced countries. I mean, these are countries that 134 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 1: are spending billions of dollars on surveillance technology from some 135 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: of the most sophisticated companies out there, whether there Israeli 136 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 1: companies that specifically build surveillance videos and tools, and or 137 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: u S companies actually that are not being held accountable 138 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: working with repressive governments like this, that are putting the 139 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: lives of activists at risk as it means they get 140 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: a couple of hundred thousand dollars. So that type of 141 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: fear really gets to you. Or we wanted to be 142 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 1: sure that we could creatively bypass a lot of that, 143 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: and that's why we turned to music. That's why we 144 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: turned to gamification. That's why we turned to art, because 145 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: we're trying to do things in such a way where 146 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: it's not just a group of investigative journalists who are 147 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,439 Speaker 1: going to publish this bombshell report through Human Rights Watch 148 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: or something like that. Of course this stuff is important, 149 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: but this is also the stuff that will get you killed. 150 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: So we wanted something in the middle. We didn't want 151 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: to get arrested. At the same time, we didn't want 152 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: to stay silent and therefore complicit. Everybody I know would 153 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: be in jail because all we do is mouth off 154 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: on the internet against people with power. It just doesn't 155 00:09:52,400 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: It feels literally foreign. We'll be right back. I want 156 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: to talk about one of those platforms that you helped create. 157 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: Tell me what Awah is and where did the idea begin. 158 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: So it began in two thousand nine, and it began 159 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: as a platform for the lgbt Q plus community in 160 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: the Arab region where we could just share stories, share 161 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: support um, share resources, and really just build a supportive 162 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: network where we can be who we want to be 163 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: without the fear of bullying, prejudice, trolling that we saw 164 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: was prevalent in many of the other platforms. Everywhere we went. 165 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: We felt punished, we felt humiliated, we felt threatened, and 166 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: it was really tough because you can build, you know, 167 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: you can go on Facebook, and even when you create 168 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: those private groups, a lot of the times, what we 169 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: saw was a lot of them were being deleted because 170 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: oh you this is against community policy and they're not 171 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: obligated to explain any further. They had a lot of 172 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: moderators in the region, which we felt that for them, 173 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: being queer was against community policy because it's against cultural norms. 174 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: We thought, okay, look, nobody out there were sitting saying, hey, 175 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: let's design something that a bunch of queer Arabs can 176 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: really Also, you know, nobody's sitting there and saying, well, 177 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: what about this community, what about this small niche? You know, 178 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: let's put monetization aside and growth metrics aside, and let's 179 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: put the people. Nobody is going to think that. Why 180 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: do you think it wasn't in a Twitter, for example, 181 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: in their interest or Facebook and their interests to serve 182 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 1: the queer Arab community. I mean, for them, it's really 183 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: about us grow because it helps our strategic direction on 184 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: how best and how quickly we can monetize a specific tool. 185 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: That's the bottom line for them. It's not security, it's 186 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: not community, it's not people like me. One time, the 187 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: Committee to Protect Journalists invited a group of us to 188 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: go and speak at Facebook headquarters at Twitter headquarters, and 189 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:29,079 Speaker 1: nobody cared. It was over like a lunch brown bag. 190 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: Everybody was disappointed because they didn't get the sandwich order 191 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: that they wanted, and they're just like, this is just 192 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: a meeting for me. This is not a place where 193 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to come and somebody's going to try and 194 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: push the boundaries for me. The designers were showing up 195 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: and you could tell that they were just doodling and 196 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: could not care less about what my colleague from Syria 197 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: was saying about being hunted, what my colleague in as 198 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: Our Beijan was saying about being arrested on a weekly 199 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: basis and investigated. They couldn't care less. I mean, they 200 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: felt pity, but one person would actually say, well, why 201 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 1: do you use these tools for those purposes? That's not 202 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,079 Speaker 1: what we designed them for. You know what. Facebook is 203 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: really a place where you can go and connect with 204 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: the classmates that you haven't heard from in a long time. 205 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: And so that was for us. That's them saying we're 206 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: not building this for you, and we never will. If 207 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: these are the people who are setting the rules, setting 208 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: the stage, then that's all they're ever going to care 209 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: about it. We can force them to care about us. 210 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: That scene is so familiar and so infuriating. So so 211 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: what have you built as a contrast? How does awah 212 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: work and what is it providing for this l g 213 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: B t Q plus community that a Facebook or Twitter 214 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: wasn't willing to provide? Well, first of all, we spoke 215 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: to everybody that we could. What are you using to 216 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: find support in this space? And why isn't it working? 217 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: And so that's that's where we started finding the void 218 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 1: and what was already available. It's um, okay, we don't 219 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: have proper anonymity. Facebook obviously for a long time, discourage 220 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: an enimedia altogether. It was crazy, I'm not boarding a flight, 221 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: I'm using you know, a social media site. And so 222 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: for a lot of people that's really where the line 223 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: was drawn and they felt that they just didn't have 224 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: that security. So for us, what we felt was what 225 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: if we built a platform where everybody was welcome, you know, 226 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: we didn't want to build something clicky and we didn't 227 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: want to build anything that was invite only where somebody 228 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: had to know somebody to know somebody to come in, 229 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: because most of the time the target communities that you 230 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: are scared to even express, sometimes to even come up 231 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: to yourself. So we said, okay, you can log in, 232 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: you can introduce yourself a little by little, based on 233 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: the type of interactions that you're having. On the side, 234 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: if you're posting something that's helpful, some people say they 235 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: would mark that contribution as helpful, and that gives you 236 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: more points. And based on the number of points you have, 237 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: you lock more sections of the platform, for example, access 238 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: to a page of resources where if you have three 239 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: thousand points, now you can have resources organized by country, 240 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: like in Lebanon, this is where you can go to 241 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: do this. In Sardi Arabia this is a counselor that 242 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: is very LGBT friendly, for example. And then you are 243 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: able to create a chat room. You're able to join 244 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: a chat room, all based on the different level of 245 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: points that you have. And the thing is is, of 246 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: course you can you know game the system, but it 247 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: requires you to be super tolerant, supportive kind for like 248 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: hundreds of posts, so that you can call somebody a 249 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: jerk for one second before that you lose all your points. 250 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: This is amazing you have You've increased the price of trolling. 251 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: I mean it's exhausting. Basically, if you're going to effectively 252 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: troll on this platform, you've got to go undercover as 253 00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: a decent person. Exactly for weeks. The most homophobic people 254 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: in our communities won't even put themselves in that. But 255 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: we have had a couple of stories where people would say, look, 256 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: I came here to troll. I'm not gonna lie. I 257 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: saw this, somebody posted about this. But when I put 258 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: myself in that situation with fake support, I realized I 259 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: was actually connecting with people. It was actually changing some 260 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: mindset because they realized, wow, I'm talking to somebody who 261 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: would rather kill themselves than come out, and they would 262 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: really put themselves in that shoes, and they started empathizing. 263 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: We didn't just want to build a place where it's 264 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: an advocacy organization, it's like, recognize us, we need this. 265 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: We wanted a place where it humanized the community in 266 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: all of its different phases and with many different people. 267 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: And we never wanted to say that this was a 268 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: singular story. It was thousands of stories. I mean now 269 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: we have about eleven thousand users. That's eleven thousand very 270 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: different experiences. That clicks with me because as the other 271 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: platforms are very flat and their incentive structure is around 272 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: pretty much letting everyone do as much as possible, as 273 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 1: quickly as possible, so there's no there's no investment. It's 274 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: almost like when I go on a place like Twitter, 275 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: people are showing up with such a disrespect because they're 276 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: not actually invested in the platform. They haven't had to 277 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 1: work for any of it. And so of course you 278 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 1: can trash somebody else's house, and what you set up 279 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: is a kind of a different incentive structure where people 280 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: have a sense of belonging, they put time in, which 281 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 1: is a form of investment. Here's what I'm not hearing. 282 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: I'm not hearing scale, I'm not hearing growth. I'm not 283 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 1: hearing maximize shareholder value. Like in the in the language 284 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: of the commercial internet, this is small, this is cute, 285 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 1: this is a failure. What why are you not building 286 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 1: to make this the biggest, fastest, growing, most amazing thing. 287 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: You've got all these great people, now add some zeros 288 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: behind that eleven thousand. Why are you not doing that? 289 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: Because scale is moronic. Honestly, every platform that has built 290 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: for scale sucks. Either the people they're suck or the 291 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: features suck, or both, more often than not both. Honestly, 292 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: people always complain it's like, oh, the Internet is full 293 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: of idiots, because that's by design. Mark Zuckerberg was very 294 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: famed for saying, is oh, you have to move fast 295 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: and break things. And the thing that you're breaking are 296 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: people's confidence, people's spirits, people's banks. I mean, these are 297 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: the things that you break, people's dignity, people's security. These 298 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: are all things that you cannot build at scale, period. 299 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 1: And so that's why the Internet today looks very homogeneous. 300 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: And so when you move away from that, the Internet 301 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: starts looking a lot better, a lot healthier. We'll be 302 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: right back. So you've painted a hilarious, truthful and clear 303 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: picture a contrast and how the Internet has been built 304 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: and a bit of how else we can build it 305 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 1: with something with a platform like AWA, who's maintaining a 306 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: Who are the people that have been operating it for 307 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: the past decade. So we have a very small group 308 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: of volunteers, primarily a lot of us are women women 309 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: in Lebanon, we have women in Jordan's. It's not a lot, 310 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: it's a small team, but we don't need a lot, 311 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: and that's the beauty of it. And then we have 312 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 1: a community of volunteers as well, and so these volunteers 313 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: they show up and they help moderate some of the 314 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: content just to make sure that people are not maybe 315 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: sharing something like an address or outing somebody, just to 316 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: kind of keep things a little bit more safe. But 317 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: oftentimes they're also helping people with onboarding. Nobody's paid, and 318 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: that's tough, but at the same time, it kind of 319 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: keeps things sustainable as well, because you know that they're 320 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: doing this because they too. They're doing this because they 321 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: care about the platform, they care about the community, they 322 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: care about the integrity of the information that's being shared 323 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 1: on there. But it's it's all volunteers. That also is remarkable. 324 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: I think two parts of that. One the human interaction 325 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: uh and second is the role of women on the 326 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,479 Speaker 1: human side. So many of the platforms most of us 327 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: are used to, we don't interact with people, right. They 328 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: try to automate as much of the onboarding as possible 329 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: to get us on as fast as possible. To get 330 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: us producing as much as possible, Like we're factory workers 331 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: on the Internet model that most of us experienced, and 332 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: it's like, get on there, give us your data, interact, 333 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: smash that like button, and to have a human slows 334 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: all that down and makes it more intimate and again 335 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: increases that investment. I think the role of women is 336 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: also fascinating because in the very early Internet in the US, 337 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: there's history in the early bullets and board systems and 338 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: forums where women were actually about half or even a 339 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: near majority of the users, and they were designing different 340 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 1: types of spaces that weren't about scale, that weren't about 341 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: aggression as much, and they essentially got chased out by 342 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: a bunch of dudes who are like, but we can, 343 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:16,199 Speaker 1: we can maximize things. It's Graham. And so before the 344 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: trolling and the abuse took over, there was a different 345 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: Internet possible here, and I'm glad to see it. It's 346 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: more than possible. You're building a part of it there, 347 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: so thank you, But I'm I'm still curious, how is 348 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: this all funded? Like how do you keep this all going? Unfortunately, 349 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: in the region, when you're building these types of tools, 350 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to get them funded. And so that's 351 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: one of the biggest challenges that we've had, but also 352 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: the biggest frustrating points because we see the colossal waste 353 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: that the philanthropic community in the global North, whether it's 354 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 1: you know, in the UK or Canada, but primarily the 355 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 1: US were a lot of private foundations give a lot 356 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: of money to people who don't know what they're doing. 357 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: You see that also when people are trying to build 358 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: a tech platform, it's like, well, that person had to 359 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 1: have gone to Stanford and then went on to work 360 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: at Twitter, and only they will know what and our 361 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: blesbin may need. In Saudi Arabia, those are the people 362 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: that helped destroy whether internet could be like and now 363 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: we're paying them to do the same. But in the 364 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 1: nonprofit industry. So it really kills us to see that 365 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,199 Speaker 1: when we go and when we're asking for funding and 366 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: we have look, this is decades worth of work. I 367 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: mean other people, they would show up with no track 368 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: record whatsoever, But simply because of who they are and 369 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: who they may know, they get access to funding a 370 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: lot quicker. And not just access to like a hundred 371 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: thousand These are people getting access to millions and millions 372 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 1: and we see platforms low through fifty million dollars because 373 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,479 Speaker 1: again they were trying to do things at scale and 374 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: not work directly with the activist communities, with the journalist communities, 375 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: and they're not collaborating with us. So this is the 376 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: thing that bothers me the most is a lack of 377 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,719 Speaker 1: collaboration and the fact that a lot of private foundations 378 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: are now encouraging competitiveness. That's what's killing organizations. That's where 379 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: you come in and they say, we want metrics, we 380 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: want scale, and we want you to do it. By 381 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: the way, in a very dangerous setting. Let's get as 382 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: many LGBT people together to use the tool that has 383 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: not doesn't have a proven concept, or has not been 384 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: tested for security. So now we are putting lives at 385 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: risk so that you can say that you were this 386 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: many people. So, I mean, I'm just very frustrated at 387 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: the current environment of philanthropy. I think it's so broken 388 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: and they are so in denial that it is, and 389 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: it's just upsetting. You know, something's got to give. You 390 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: either remove the obsession with metrics, or you make sure 391 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: that access to funding is equitable, that is generally inclusive 392 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 1: and not just you want to fund the two token 393 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 1: organizations that everybody fund to say well, we funded you 394 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: know this and that organization, and that shows that we're 395 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: not racist. You are still you know in many different ways, um. 396 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: And I love reminding this. And by the way, that's 397 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: another reason why sometimes it's hard to get funding, is 398 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: because we became outspoken, you know for too many years. 399 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: I was sitting and I was like, I'm not going 400 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: to say anything, you know, because it's gonna ruffle their 401 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: feathers and there they're not going to give me access 402 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: to money. And then I realized, you know what, I've 403 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: always been broken. They will never give me money. So 404 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: now the gloves have totally come up. Every time I 405 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: come across this, I tell them to their face, what 406 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: you're doing is idiotic. You know, your strategy doesn't work. 407 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: It hasn't worked for years, and you're part of the problem. 408 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: And it doesn't bother me that they get Some of 409 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: them actually say, you know what, we needed to hear this, um, 410 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: and then they go back to not doing anything about it. Yeah, 411 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: don't get me started. Ye I mean this is I 412 00:24:54,480 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: think I feel like I wound you yet. So so so 413 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 1: what would it take for other social media platforms to 414 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: create safe digital spaces, like I don't think they can't. 415 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: Too late for them, Yeah, absolutely, I don't think they can. 416 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: I don't think they will, and honestly, I don't think 417 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: they should. I think it's time for other creators. If 418 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: they work at these organizations and at these companies, then 419 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: they feel I don't feel like I'm doing the right thing, 420 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: leave it and create something else, and don't think that 421 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: it's going to have all these different metrics to succeed. 422 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if even you have five thousand super 423 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 1: active users that are enjoying generally enjoying your tool, that 424 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: are finding it super helpful, and you grow every year 425 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: we grow by just a thousand users, just a thousand. 426 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: We're at eleven thousand now. We've been at going for 427 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: a little over eleven years, and that's just fine. We 428 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: have enjoyed that type of growth because it's meaningful growth, 429 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: and it enables us to test out these features at 430 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 1: a scale that is reasonable and that is manageable, and 431 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 1: that is more efficient and secure, and that's fine. I 432 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,199 Speaker 1: think we need to start understanding that the Internet is 433 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: not what is already out there, and we stick to 434 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: it that's not the Internet. Those are just tools on there. 435 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: It's kind of like saying, there's all this land and 436 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: we all have to crime ourselves into these two buildings 437 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 1: because we can't build. Honestly, we need to stop looking 438 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 1: at the Internet as if what can you do for me? 439 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: What can you do for the Internet? What role can 440 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: you play in building these communities? You know? Oh? You 441 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: are you? Did you just John F. Kennedy quote the 442 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 1: Internet as not what the Internet can do for you, 443 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: but which you can do for the Internet? As you 444 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: got me fired up. I mean, I feel like the 445 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: parallels to what you're describing abound. If if we thought 446 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 1: of the only way we could create food is through 447 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: some giant agribusiness versus starting with our backyards and growing 448 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: a few tomatoes, and it's not all our food needs, 449 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: but those tomatoes are gonna be bound, right, It's gonna 450 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: be amazing. Grow those damn tomatoes, you know, And every 451 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: now and then you're gonna be like, you know what, 452 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to get some cilantro as well, and Parson, 453 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: suddenly you see that vibrant, amazing thing that you don't 454 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: have to go with somebody else to rely on and 455 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: that is empowering. Sometimes we're like, well, we have to 456 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: wait for that empowerment to arrive to us. We have 457 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: to do that ourselves most of the time because nobody 458 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: gives a crap about us the way that we want 459 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: them to. We're never gonna be somebody else's priority. M 460 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 1: So we're not saying completely dismantle it. I mean, you 461 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: know me, I'm on Twitter as well. I mean, sure, 462 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: you're going to grow tomatoes, but then you've got to 463 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: go to the store and get something else, baking soda. 464 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: I don't know something that you can make yourself. So 465 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: it's it's really about creating that healthy balance, but making 466 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: sure that you don't wait for somebody else to give 467 00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 1: you a voice. As for this show is called How 468 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: to Citizen. We use citizen as a verb. Taking that interpretation, 469 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: what does it mean for you? What is to citizen mean? 470 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: It's to be responsible. It's to hold yourself accountable when 471 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: you're falling short, and to hold others accountable when they're 472 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: abusing your rights or the rights of those around you. 473 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: It's the way that I can live with myself to 474 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: wake up every day and say, I think I citizens 475 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: my ass off today. You know, how can I citizen 476 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: even better? And that's really where the tools come in, 477 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: because it's not just about you, but sometimes it's about 478 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: giving those in your position the tools to do exactly 479 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: what you did and to facilitate that. People are going 480 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: to be fired up when they hear you era, and 481 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: they're gonna be like, what what can I do? Tell 482 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: me what to do? How can we support your work? 483 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:01,479 Speaker 1: The most important thing is to help spread the word 484 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: that scale is not good and to do it in 485 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: any setting, in for profit setting and nonprofit setting. We 486 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: need to get rid of that word or we need 487 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: to reclaim how it is defined. The second thing would 488 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: be build your platforms UM support open source communities because 489 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: just finding places like that where you can contribute to 490 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: a different kind of web that would be great. Um. 491 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: You can do it with your skills, you can do 492 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: it by spreading the word. You can do it with 493 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: your money. Speaking of money, I've never seen note of that. 494 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: I remember that actually you had tweeted about Michelle and 495 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: he said, hey, you know, I just heard this talk 496 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: and everybody should give this organization money. UM. I regret 497 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: to inform you that nobody took you up on that offer. 498 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: So this is ah. So this is the second opportunity 499 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: for those UM. But you know, organizations like ours we 500 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: operate on very little, and that's not by choice, but 501 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: it is by choice that we will continue to work 502 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: despite having so little. Well, Eestra, you are not alone. 503 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: We hear you. We will get some money to you. 504 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: This time my tweet failed, but I'm gonna blame the 505 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: algorithm and the like and the lack of context. We 506 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: have a lot more context here, is it magele dot org. 507 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: Is that the best place to direct people? Yes? Or 508 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: would be the best place UM people can connect with 509 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: me if they want to support in any other way. 510 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: And I will say that if you feel this time 511 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: there will be diret consequences. I won't go into detail 512 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: because this is there. And there goes the threat she 513 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: promised when she when the videos off and she got 514 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: that anonymity. Sometimes she makes really exactly and you know what, 515 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: if somebody comes after me after this, I'll say it's 516 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: a deep fake. There. Thank you, Estra al Chaffee, thank 517 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: you so much for this time. I am fired up 518 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: and ready to go good good and I hope you know, 519 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: I hope you stay fired up and thank you so 520 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: much for you know, amplifying the story. Um, this is 521 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: always a great opportunity to speak with you. And it 522 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: was definitely the least boring podcast have been a part of. 523 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: So that's good, you know. Can you put that on 524 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: our iTunes reviewed? How the Citizen the least boring podcast 525 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:27,479 Speaker 1: I've been a part of. Okay, if after that my 526 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: social media following doesn't give money to ms all, Yo, 527 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: let's just say we might not even get season four 528 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: of How the Citizen because this is how you citizen. 529 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: It's right there in front of you. So please don't 530 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: make me look bad. People come on you. But in 531 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: all seriousness, that's the kind of fire we need to 532 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 1: truly think outside the box, or maybe, as might put it, 533 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: smash the box completely. Next episode, we're speaking with Pia Mancini, 534 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: another huge advocate of open source. I'm starting to see 535 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: a theme here, and she's co founder of open Collective, 536 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: an organization that enables collectives to receive funding without needing 537 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: a legal entity or a bank account to do so. 538 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: You can't beat the nation state, so stop trying build 539 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: around it until it becomes obsolete. But the nation states 540 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: weren't always here and they're not going to be here always. 541 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: As part of how to Citizen, we want to offer 542 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: you more than a chance to listen to cool conversations. 543 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: We want to give you ways you concitizen. That's why 544 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: we're building a universe of citizen actions over at how 545 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: to citizen dot com. So for this episode, here are 546 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: some things you can do personally. Reflect on one of 547 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: you felt concerned for your safety and security online? What 548 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: features made you feel vulnerable or exposed? Was it something 549 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: you could control or was it outside of your control? 550 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: Next type of action, get informed and question the idea 551 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: of scale in philanthropy. I want you to check outs 552 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: dot org, m A j a L dot org that's 553 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: Esther's joint and take a look at all the platforms 554 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: they create. Then, beyond Ra's work, when you're engaging with 555 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: nonprofits and philanthropic organizations, take a look at who founded 556 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: the group and who runs it, who's funding it. Then 557 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: try to find groups that are run by people closest 558 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: to the problem or experiencing that problem directly. Here's a 559 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: great way to start that learning journey. Read this dope 560 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: book by Edgar Villenueva. He's an Indigenous person, former philanthropic operator, 561 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: and he's written this beautiful book called de Colonizing Wealth. 562 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: I can't recommend it enough. Third level of the game. 563 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: Publicly participate by challenging some of those philanthropic norms. Many 564 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: of us support large organizations that emphasize scale and unsustainable 565 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: growth in the way they try to help. Instead, I 566 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: want you to consider getting as local and grassroots as 567 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: you can. So I want you to do an extra 568 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 1: favor to all of us here because you heard as 569 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: recall us out. Donate dot org, m A j A 570 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: L dot org. All this is available at how to 571 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: citizen dot com. Find us on Instagram at how to 572 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: citizen to share your thoughts, to learn from others, and 573 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 1: why don't you post with that hashtag how to citizen 574 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: goodbye for now. How to Citizen with barrittun Day is 575 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,280 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio podcast and dust Light Productions. 576 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,760 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Me Barritton Day, Thurston, Elizabeth Stewart, 577 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: and Misha Yusuf. Our senior producer is Tamika Adams. Our 578 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: producer is Ali Kilts, and our assistant producer Sam Paulson. 579 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: Stephanie Cohne is Our editor Valentino Rivera is our senior 580 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 1: engineer and Matthew Laie as our apprentice. Additional production help 581 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,280 Speaker 1: from rwin Nicks, original music by Andrew Eapen with additional 582 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: original music for season three from Andrew Clawson. This episode 583 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 1: was produced and sound designed by Ali Kilts. Special thanks 584 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 1: to Joel Smith from I Heart Radio and Rachel Garcia 585 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:08,240 Speaker 1: at Dustlight Production