WEBVTT - #568 Maggie Freleng with Dusty Turner 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:08.360 Over the course of nineteen ninety four and ninety five, 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:13.160 Dusty Turner and Billy Joe Brown trained together to become 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:14.320 Navy seals. 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:16.640 I know this guy because I've been training with for 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:19.639 a year and a half, from islands into Pacific to 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:22.400 jumping out of planes and throwing hand grenades over each 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:25.239 other's backs and diving in pitch black waters in the 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:27.120 middle of the oceans. And one of the things that 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:33.920 beats into my unconsciousness is, no matter what, I have 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:36.480 to protect this guy. I don't even have a choice 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:38.120 to protect him. I have to protect him. 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:44.040 But that training left Dusty ill prepared for partying off 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:49.400 base with Billy. On June nineteenth, nineteen ninety five, Dusty 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:53.040 met twenty one year old mid student Jennifer Evans on 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:58.200 the dance floor while Billy, who had alcohol related anchor issues, 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:02.200 had a night that devolved into rage. After spoiling his 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:07.080 ride home, Billy tried to squeeze into Dusty's car behind Jennifer, 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:11.119 and after she didn't respond well to his belligerence, Billy 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:16.840 attacked and killed Jennifer right next to Dusty, But in 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:21.080 the intense moments following her death, he protected Billy. 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:26.080 That was absolutely brainwashed to protect this psychopath. I know 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.120 what I would do now, It's easy be hindsight. I 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:31.360 could have jumped out the car or took off running somewhere. 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:33.800 I could have drove someone different. I could have done 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:34.800 something different right. 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:39.920 But eventually Dusty turned Billy in and with the death 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:44.959 penalty looming, Billy then flipped the tables. 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:49.880 My name was Dustin Turner and I was incarcerated for 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:53.280 thirty years and seven months. To be specific, that's eleven 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:55.760 two hundred and eight days. 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:00.400 From Lava for Good. This is wrongful conviction with Maggie 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.240 Freeling today, Dusty Turner. 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:18.000 I grew up in Bloomington, Indiana, and I have three 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:22.440 brothers and a sister. And my mother was a elementary 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:26.720 school teacher and my stepfather, who I really grew up with, 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:30.839 was an insurance salesman. I suppose I had a very 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:35.880 typical Midwestern Indiana who's your upbringing? I played sports all 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:37.799 my life as a kid. You know, we were rough 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:40.320 and tumble and we would run around playing all those games. 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:45.040 And my family was very outdoorsy. We gardened and we 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:49.560 hunted for mushrooms and for simmons, and my family members 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.440 were hunters, and a lot of my family were veterans 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:55.119 or they were in the military, and so I think 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:58.760 my upbringing was colored by that experience. It was just 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:02.440 built into fabric of my family going back really quite 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:03.720 a few generations. 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:09.040 And Dusty also grew up with a love for the water. 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:13.240 So I was swimming from before I was conscious. I 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:15.680 guess my mother had me in the pool, probably why 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:17.760 I was still in diapers. I was a swimmer and 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:22.440 I was always interested in water sports. And when I'll 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:24.480 share this with you, when I was very young, I 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:27.200 found a book and there was a photo in the 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.760 book that intrigued me, and it was a sunken ship 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:33.680 with a treasure chest and it might have been a 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:36.640 pirate or something, and he had a knife between his 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:39.920 teeth and he was diving free diving down to the 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:43.240 sunken chest. And I just thought this guy was the 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:47.440 ultimate badass of the water. And I think somehow that 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:50.000 really influenced my getting into scuba diving. 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:56.240 So around what age were you solidified like I am enlisting, 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:58.680 And I guess even though my partner was in the army, 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:01.960 he still tries to explain like enlisting and then joining 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:04.600 Special Forces. So this might be when did you decide 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:06.240 to enlist and then become a seal? 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:10.160 A good question. I did enlist when I was still seventeen, 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:12.440 still in high school. My mother had to sign for 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:14.640 me because I was under eighteen. I don't want to 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:17.120 speak for her. She may have been a little apprehensive, 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:19.080 but she knew that's what I wanted to do, and 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:22.360 she signed the necessary papers and allowed me to join 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:26.520 under the delayed entry program. Before I was eighteen, I 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:28.960 was into a lot of sports and growing up through 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.599 high school and especially towards the end of high school, 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:38.080 I was a competitive state swimmer in Indiana and I 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:43.080 had an offer for a scholarship, but I chose the military. 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:46.560 I actually initially wanted to be a diver, a scuba 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:49.920 diver for the Navy, and then later on I heard 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:51.719 more about the seal teams. I wanted to be in 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:53.760 the seal teams, but I didn't know how to get 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:56.760 myself there. So when I was in boot camp, and 0:04:56.800 --> 0:05:00.200 that was in Orlando, Florida, I had an option need 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:05.599 to take the physical test to become a diver, but 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:09.760 I actually snuck into another line. That was the guys 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:12.840 that were wanting to be in the seal teams. I 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:14.720 was one of just a few people that passed it. 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:18.600 And the seal that was there taking in the scores, 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:20.880 he looked through his clipboard and he said, wait, you 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:23.200 took the wrong test. You were supposed to take the 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:27.520 other one. And I said, I know, However, I'm desirous 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:29.240 of being a seal, and he said, I'll tell you what. 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:30.640 I'm going to make sure you get to the training 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:33.680 and he saw the fort two that I had and 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:36.480 desire I had. So that's how I got into seal 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:39.640 training out in San Diego and Corneatto Island. 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:43.160 And it was during seal training that he was paired 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:47.960 with the actual perpetrator of the murdering question, Billy Joe Brown. 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.680 Early in training, they pair people up in boat crews 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:55.960 by your height, and so we were the exact same height, 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.599 and at some point we were literally paired up as 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:03.479 with a call the swim Buddies training partners. And this 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:06.800 was prior to even prior to Hell Week. So over 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:11.520 a year and a half of the most excruciating military 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:15.520 training perhaps in the world, we're bonded through that fire. 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:19.799 We were trained to or at least in my mind 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:23.880 to be prepared to give our lives in the defense 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:27.440 of this nation. And I was okay with that. I 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.760 was prepared for that. And I have to say there's 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.640 a lot of mental manipulation. Yes, if you want to 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:38.560 call it brainwashing or whatever. I was nineteen years old. 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:46.120 They totally shaped my mind when it came to these 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:50.720 ideas of brotherhood and the culture of military and special 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:53.200 forces and maybe specifically in the seal teams. 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:57.920 Which may go a long way in explaining Dusty's behavior 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.839 in the aftermath of what bill Is eventually did two 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:07.200 Jennifer Evans. But before that, despite Billy Joe Brown not 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:12.080 going as far as murdering someone, there was definitely a 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:13.360 history of violence. 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:19.320 Two times previous I saw his attempt of violence or 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:22.720 aggression I should say, towards women. And once was in 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:26.320 Puerto Rico, and thankfully there was multiple people around to 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:30.120 restrain him. Another time it was just me and I 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:33.080 was able to restrain him. But yeah, so you know, 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:36.640 I've seen that aggressive behavior of him often having to 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:41.680 ensure that he gets out of trouble. Right, this is 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:44.880 only going on when he's drunk and when he's sober. 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:48.360 It was never like this right. When he's drinking, he's 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:51.480 like a ticking time bomb. And so there was multiple 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:57.080 times in which I had to extract him from situations 0:07:57.160 --> 0:07:58.960 at a concert. At one time he attacked a guy 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.720 and really messed him up, and I had to jump 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:04.239 in and pull him out. And it ended with later 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.320 in the night, we were fleeing from the police. I 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:09.200 haven't told many people this, but we ended up in 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:12.080 a pond, literally underwater. 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.880 Now, for our audience, I urge you to count yourself 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:20.920 lucky if you've never had to be the caretaker of 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:24.960 this kind of friend. Some folks are not that lucky. 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:30.760 And unfortunately, Dusty had not yet cut ties with Billy 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:35.319 Joe Brown, and at this time, well completing their training 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:40.400 in Virginia, Billy Joe Brown was drinking a lot as 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:45.080 he was on June nineteenth, nineteen ninety five, when a 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:49.120 few Seal trainees were set to head out to party 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:50.360 in Virginia Beach. 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.040 There was originally I think three of us that were 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:55.440 supposed to be there that night, and it ended up 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.439 it was just Billy Brown and myself. Well. We went 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:00.360 to a club that we had been to. 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:04.680 It was called the Bayou Nightclub and as Dusty told 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:07.360 Jason in previous coverage which we'll link to in the 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:12.200 episode description, Dusty had separated himself from Billy that night, 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:15.319 and then he met twenty one year old med student 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.959 Jennifer Evans on the dance floor. She was on vacation 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:21.839 and her friends had moved on to another place. They 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:25.520 were planning to circle back at closing time, and Dusty 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:30.720 had also arranged with Billy's ex girlfriend to get him home. Allegedly, 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:34.440 the night progressed and Jennifer and Dusty went out to 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:37.560 the parking lot to wait for her friends. When Billy 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:42.000 stumbled over to the car, Dusty morange, Jennifer, just don't 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:45.880 engage with Billy if he's belligerent or obnoxious, and then 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.480 he gets into the backseat behind her. 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.360 I saw that he was in the mode which I've 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:57.080 seen before with him, that he could become violent, and 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:59.760 so I was doing everything I could. And really, I 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:02.480 say that I won't say everything I could, because in 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:07.439 hindsight there's other things I could have done, But at 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:10.240 the moment, I thought by speaking to him calmly and 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:13.760 trying to get him to relax, and hey, look, let's 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:16.520 just find Kristen his friend who was supposed to take 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:19.240 him home. Let's just find her, she can take you home. 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:22.080 But he was completely belligerent, completely belligerent. 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.760 Apparently Billy had done something to cause his ax to leave, 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:32.200 So while Dusty tried to de escalate, Billy allegedly said 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:38.280 some nasty things and touched Jennifer's hair. Allegedly, she brushed 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.720 him off, and then Billy lashed out. 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:46.880 His initial maneuver was explosive enough to literally shake the 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:50.800 whole vehicle, and I wasn't looking directly at him. It 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:54.319 took me a second to realize what has just happened. 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:59.520 Her head was twisted towards the car window, and he 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.160 had his own arms locked around her. I started grabbing 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:07.079 his arms and screaming at him, and Jennifer was completely limb. 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:25.520 It was that quick. So I just immediately grabbed his 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:28.120 arms and trying to pull him off of her, and 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:30.680 at first I couldn't, but he was screaming at me, 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:34.719 just fucking dry and screaming at me, and I was 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:38.000 screaming at him to just let her go. And I 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:42.600 literally had to put my fingers under his fingertips and 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:47.000 pry his first hand from his arm as he was 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:50.160 locked and pry his arms off of her. And then 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:51.960 when I get his arms off of her, he's still 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:54.960 screaming at me. Now he's up in my ear, just dry, 0:11:55.160 --> 0:12:00.800 just from here, and Jennifer's limbs, she's gone, She's completely gone, 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:04.600 and she's slumped into his seat. I know this guy 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.640 sitting behind me because I've been training with him a 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.840 year and a half through all this stuff, from islands 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:14.840 into Pacific to jumping out of planes and throwing hand 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:18.559 grenades over each other's backs and diving in pitch black 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:21.680 waters in the middle of the oceans. And the only 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:24.600 thing I know for a fact that is beat into 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:29.960 my unconsciousness is this man. No matter what, I have 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:32.800 to protect I don't even have a choice to protect him. 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:37.560 I have to protect him. That's what colored my decisions 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:42.320 that I made at that point. I was absolutely brainwashed 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:46.640 to protect this psychopath. I shouldn't have been in that position. 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.199 He should never have been in that position. He should 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:51.520 have never been in the military, let alone in the 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:58.640 special forces community never. But ultimately, regardless of all, it's 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:00.360 still my decision. I could have jumped out the car, 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:02.800 took off, run in somewhere. I could have drove someone different. 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:06.920 I could have done something different right at that point, but. 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:12.440 He didn't, and that decision became a key point of scrutiny. 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.440 I didn't know Virginia Beach areat. I literally didn't know 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:20.280 where to turn when I left the parking lot. In fact, 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:24.280 he was yelling directions at me, turn left, turned right. 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:28.600 Dusty drove them onto Interstate sixty four, and then they 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.880 exited near a wooded area by Newport News, where they 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:38.200 left Jennifer's body about thirty yards into the woods. Over 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:43.200 the next week, Dusty says, guilt weighed heavily on him. 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:50.120 Then detectives caught up with them. Both seals initially denied involvement, 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:55.840 but after speaking with his commanding officer, Dusty decided to confess, 0:13:56.240 --> 0:14:00.640 leading authorities to the body and to Billie Brown. Facing 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:05.720 the death penalty, Brown seemingly created a story implicating Dusty 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:10.720 in the murder. Yours leader, Dusty, says Brown explained why 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:14.080 he believed that decision was justified. 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:16.760 He said he thought I was going to do two 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:21.640 weeks in jail before the authorities realized the truth of 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:26.560 what happened, and instead, the authorities used his false stories 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:29.520 to convict me of his crimes. How do you even 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:32.560 wrap your head around them? But all he had to 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:38.200 do is come clean. See, he knew, he knew that 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:43.320 there was this code, and he called it the Seal 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:46.600 Team code, that I couldn't tell the authorities what he 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:47.720 had done. 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:48.720 He said that to. 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.520 You years later, he said, that's the whole reason he 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.520 made up the story to implicate me is because I 0:14:55.720 --> 0:15:00.320 broke the Seal Code, and therefore I deserved to be 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:03.920 unjustly put in prison because I broke the Sealk Code 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:08.720 by telling the authorities of what had happened. That's it. 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.000 If he would have told the truth from the beginning, 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.800 i'd obviously never been convicted of these crimes. 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:17.720 Meaning the ones he says he didn't do. First degree 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:22.680 murder and abduction. Billy Brown received seventy two years, while 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:27.680 Dusty got eighty two and then even more insult to injury. 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:31.240 From what I understand, the authorities within the military had 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:34.400 told guys that I had been around that they are 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:38.760 to have no contact with me or my family. That's difficult, 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:40.800 to be honest. There's a lot of things that I 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.640 still have a hard time with concerning the military and 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:45.840 the way I was treated it was wrong. And I 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:48.000 will say I've heard from a couple of the former 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:51.320 Silting guys, which is nice and I really appreciate that. 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.680 But there had been a kind of a hand washing 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:58.960 of both myself and Billy Brown, as if we were 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.480 the same people, as if we were in Caho says, 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:07.240 if we deserved the same fate. But beyond that, I'm 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:08.000 past it. 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:11.560 And perhaps Dusty had help. In two thousand and two, 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:16.040 Billy Brown found religion and made a confession that Dusty 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:19.720 had nothing to do with the murder and corroborated what 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:24.840 Dusty maintained all along, that he protected his training partner, 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:29.520 whom he says he should have immediately exposed for his crime. 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:31.880 You know, it's kind of ironic. That's a stale team 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:35.440 investigator for the military. He is a very strong advocate 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:39.240 for me for years. He's a strong advocate because again 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:41.680 he investigated my case, but he didn't do it for 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:45.120 the civilian side. He did it for the military. His 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:50.480 reports were destined only for the military leaders. But what 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:55.160 he found was basically the same thing that now everyone knows, right, 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:57.840 and that is I had no role in the murder. 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:00.880 I had no role in abducting Jennifer. 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:05.560 Dusty's legal team filed a writ of actual innocence, citing 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:09.360 the confession as new evidence, and his conviction was overturned 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:13.000 in two thousand and nine, but the Attorney General appealed 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:16.960 and his murder and abduction convictions were reinstated and he 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:24.639 served sixteen more years. How did you survive thirty years 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:25.240 in prison? 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:25.479 So? 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:27.920 I guess there's a lot to this. I mean, you're 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:32.280 convicted of a crime you did not commit, and even 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.680 the thing that you did do is only punishable by 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:40.280 up to twelve months in prison, So that is completely unjust. 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.800 How do you survive prison in a place that you 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:46.760 know you shouldn't be? How did you do that? 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:49.679 I think it was, I guess, the same thing that 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:57.480 allowed me, I guess to survive steal training resolved of love, 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:02.520 and I have to say, maybe even hate, the love 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:07.480 of my family and supporters. That alone got me through 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:15.000 some very difficult times. I have a persistent, maybe we'll 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:20.040 just say hatred towards Billy Brown and if that's the 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:23.159 right word, but it's never subsided. And part of that 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:26.200 is obviously, first of all, what he did to Jennifer 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:30.280 in her family, and secondly what he did to me 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:36.600 and my family. He has written to my mother and 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:39.960 through my mother trying to asking or begging for me 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:44.200 to forgive him. And here it is thirty one years later, 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:48.000 almost and my hatred for him still burns deep in 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:53.080 my chest, and I can't look at all the at 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:58.160 my family, everything that we've been through and not feel 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:00.000 that hatred towards him. 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:02.560 I understand that you're one of the first people out 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:06.840 of how many wrongfully convicted people I've spoken to, that 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:10.080 has not forgiven. And I think you're the first person 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:14.520 that I relate to because I can't imagine forgiving somebody 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:15.359 who did that to me. 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:19.640 And sometimes I think maybe it's maybe I'm failing there, 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:22.320 but that I should forgive. And I've even wrote an 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:25.240 essay on forgiveness. It may even be posted on my 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:27.720 website because I was exploring it. And one of the 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:29.399 things I think it's in my little essay that I 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:32.240 had a chaplain come to me and he said, just 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:34.919 completely assuming because he knew me. I had a lot 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.520 of interactions with him, and he's like, well, you're a 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:41.239 smart guy. You know that forgiveness is not about him. 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:43.560 It's about you, and he just assumed that I had 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:46.960 forgiven him, and because I'm not so stupid to not 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:49.879 forgive him, because what that suggests is it's just putting 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:54.160 more upon myself, you know. But I don't forgive him. 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:58.760 And I feel like that that anger and that burning hatred, 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:02.160 that really maybe in some ways it helped me get 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:06.400 through some of the more difficult times of my prison senters. 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:12.840 I one relate to that. I tell people, like, the 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:16.280 reason I can keep going is because I want vengeance 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:19.160 on people, and for me, it's the prosecutors that hurt 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:21.399 all of you guys. That's why I keep listening to 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:22.240 these stories. 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:28.680 You know, listenance. Vengeance is in our vernacular for a reason, right, 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:32.840 It's an ancient idea of just desserts. But regardless, obviously 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:36.160 I'm not seeking to exact some kind of vengeance myself. 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:38.199 But there needs to be accountability. 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:39.680 That's such a better word. 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:45.440 Yeah, And that goes beyond Billy Brown, because there's others 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:48.880 who knew that I had no role in those crimes, 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:52.680 and they either loud or were actively involved in convicting 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:54.800 me or keeping me in prison. 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:15.439 A cellmate of yours once said, quote, you were a 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:20.679 little too talkative about plant life. I think this was 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:23.080 perhaps one of yours for parole. 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:27.560 I know who you're talking about too. 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:30.560 And so I want to ask you about that. How 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:32.520 did you get into horticulture? 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:35.520 You know, I grew up, like I said, I was 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:38.480 in a family that was very outdoorsy and we had 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:41.600 a decent family garden growing up, and so I learned 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:44.760 a lot from my stepfather about horticulture. Therefore, I thought 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:47.520 I knew quite a bit about horticulture. So I joined 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:50.800 a horticulture of course, and then I realized I don't 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:53.560 know anything about horticulture right. So, over the course of 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:55.960 a year and then I got through that program, I 0:21:56.000 --> 0:22:00.000 took an advanced horticulture program. This was well in prison, yeah, absolutely, 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:05.480 Soon thereafter I was tutoring incarcerated students horticulture. But I 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:08.479 found it to be an opportunity not simply just to speak, Hey, 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:11.280 here's how you germinate seeds, and here's how you grow 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:14.720 a plant, and here's the names of these different species. 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:19.159 But there's a therapeutic element, especially for those in prison 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:23.760 who are surrounded by nothing but concrete and still there's 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:26.639 a therapeutic aspect to the idea of being able to 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:29.359 grow things or see growing things and living things. And 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:34.280 it was I got to say, relatively speaking, it was beautiful. 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:38.680 I'm in garden spaces that I helped create, and I'm 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:40.880 out there with all these students, and they come from 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:44.360 all all over Virginia, all walks of life. I had 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:46.040 a lot of inner city guys who are like, you know, 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:49.120 when I go home, I am creating a community guard 0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:50.919 and I'm going to do it, and I know exactly 0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:53.080 where I'm going to put it, and this is my goal. 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:56.680 Dusty's former sell me wrote a letter to the parole 0:22:56.720 --> 0:23:00.919 board supporting his release, saying what a good person Dusty 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:03.960 is and his largest complaint about him is that he 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:08.440 talks about plants too much. In twenty twenty, a new 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:12.719 law was passed in Virginia and Dusty was released in 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:15.240 March of twenty twenty six. 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:18.640 I didn't invite all my family because first of all, 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:22.400 most of my family is in Indiana and in other states. 0:23:22.640 --> 0:23:24.960 And I hope it didn't hurt some people's feelings. But 0:23:24.960 --> 0:23:26.960 I didn't invite all my family. I have a very 0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:29.840 large family. I can't invite everybody, right, but I did 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:31.359 have some of my family and some of those who 0:23:31.680 --> 0:23:35.120 maybe I've been closest with throughout the years and they've 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:39.800 really been there for me. And then my advocates, right 0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:44.920 those who have fought so hard for so much of 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:48.040 their time and energies and money and everything else. They 0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:53.160 recognized the injustice and that drove them with a passion. 0:23:53.600 --> 0:23:56.080 I absolute wouldn't be sitting here without them. They would 0:23:56.080 --> 0:23:59.960 not have given me parole without my advocates fighting for me, period. 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:04.280 And so its beautiful to see everybody and to embrace everyone, 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:09.360 and it was emotional. It was overwhelming, and it still 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:12.760 is overwhelming. I do not have my feet on the ground. 0:24:13.560 --> 0:24:15.919 I'm working on it. I wish you could be in 0:24:15.960 --> 0:24:19.879 my shoes or last thirty hours or so, just to 0:24:19.920 --> 0:24:23.160 experience what I'm in. Such an amazing place right now. 0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:27.879 I'm in such an amazing place right now. I was 0:24:27.880 --> 0:24:30.359 in a side by side vehicle a few hours ago 0:24:30.960 --> 0:24:35.360 driving through just amazing countryside, the outskirts of a property. 0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:39.680 I'm blown away. There's a river it just runs right 0:24:39.720 --> 0:24:43.040 through here. And I'm unfortunate in that respect, so fortunate 0:24:43.720 --> 0:24:46.680 and grateful, and I'm going to soak it all in. 0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:49.119 How do you think your life would have been different. 0:24:49.160 --> 0:24:51.359 Maybe if none of this happened and you stayed a 0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:55.720 seal instead of becoming a horticulture mauster. I don't know 0:24:55.800 --> 0:24:56.320