WEBVTT - What Manchin Got for Backing Democrats' Climate Bill

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, remember our last episode when we said Joe Mansion

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<v Speaker 1>just sank the president's hopes of getting a climate bill done. Well, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I forget about all that. Today we're doing it about

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<v Speaker 1>face and talking about the climate bill that Mansion now

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<v Speaker 1>supports and what he got in exchange for that support. Hello,

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<v Speaker 1>and welcome back once again to Parts per Billion, the

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<v Speaker 1>environmental podcast from Bloomberg Law. I'm your host, David Schultz.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's pretty rare, maybe even unheard of, for us

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about the same topic in two consecutive episodes.

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<v Speaker 1>But after last week's podcast on the death of the

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<v Speaker 1>Democratic climate agenda, we couldn't just leave you hanging give

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<v Speaker 1>him what went down after that. As you probably heard

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<v Speaker 1>by now, Democratic leaders have come to an agreement with

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<v Speaker 1>Senator Joe Mansion of West Virginia, the most conservative member

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<v Speaker 1>of their caucus and a crucial vote to pass well

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<v Speaker 1>pretty much anything in barring an unexpected but entirely possible snaffoo,

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<v Speaker 1>it looks like Congress is poisons and a big environmental

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<v Speaker 1>package to the President's desk. So today we're gonna talk

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<v Speaker 1>about how this happened, and more importantly, what's actually in

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<v Speaker 1>that package. With Boomberg Law reporter Bobby McGill. Bobby's also

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<v Speaker 1>going to talk about a big investigative story he did

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<v Speaker 1>recently about orphan oil and gas wells that are oozing

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<v Speaker 1>out toxic substances in many backyards across the country. First, though,

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<v Speaker 1>I had to ask him about the Democratic Deal and

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<v Speaker 1>specifically about why Senator Mansion decided to do a one eighty.

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<v Speaker 1>I think what happened was, you know, Mansion got some

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<v Speaker 1>some of what he wanted in terms of fossil fuels,

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<v Speaker 1>and there was this side deal that Um he struck

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<v Speaker 1>with Schumer Um to permit the six point six billion

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<v Speaker 1>dollar Mountain Valley Pipeline, which is a gas pipeline that

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<v Speaker 1>goes across West Virginia. And so he's getting some things

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<v Speaker 1>that he's long champions and are going to benefit his state. So,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, last week when we were on the podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>we talked about what his true intentions were. He said

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<v Speaker 1>that he wasn't supporting this because of inflation concerns. But

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<v Speaker 1>you know, we also know that Senator Mansion has very

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<v Speaker 1>close ties to the fossil fuel industry. I'm gonna ask

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<v Speaker 1>that question again, what was this? You know, did he

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<v Speaker 1>change his mind because he had his inflation fears allayed

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<v Speaker 1>by economists and other people. Or is this really just

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<v Speaker 1>horse trading? You know, he just said, I just want more.

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<v Speaker 1>I can get more, and I'm going to support this

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<v Speaker 1>bill if I get more. I don't really, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>really know. Um, and I think that you know, you

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<v Speaker 1>kind of have to look at what he's getting out

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<v Speaker 1>of this, and um, you know, this isn't necessarily subsidies

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<v Speaker 1>for the coal industry necessarily, So it's it's it's other things.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it might be the you know, he's he's long, um,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, championed continued reliance on fossil fuels and and

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<v Speaker 1>he's getting that. Okay, so we're gonna get into that

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<v Speaker 1>in a little bit, but let's start off with, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>the climate measures that are in this new package that

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<v Speaker 1>Mansion and Senate Democrats in the White House agreed to.

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<v Speaker 1>What exactly UH is in this? Um? You know, if

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<v Speaker 1>this does end up becoming law, what what what climate

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<v Speaker 1>measures will be being there? Well, it's kind of a

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<v Speaker 1>big deal. Um. You know. It includes dollars in oil

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<v Speaker 1>industry taxes, including increased taxes on oil imports and um

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<v Speaker 1>an oil refining tax to ensure you know, that hazardous

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<v Speaker 1>waste is cleaned up. UM. It includes um in uh

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<v Speaker 1>tax credits for electric vehicles, and it scraps uh kind

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<v Speaker 1>of an odd exclusion for high selling electric vehicles. That's

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<v Speaker 1>that's right, and I think, uh, that's really important. As

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<v Speaker 1>we discussed on our sister podcast, Talking Tax, Tesla and

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<v Speaker 1>other automakers had reached the cap they sold too many

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<v Speaker 1>electric vehicles to be eligible for for these tax credits.

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<v Speaker 1>Now that cap has gone, so now you can once again,

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<v Speaker 1>if you buy a Tesla, you can get a tax

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<v Speaker 1>credit from the federal government as a result of this.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's not all it does. I mean beyond electric

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<v Speaker 1>vehicles it um you know, there's their rebates available to

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<v Speaker 1>install heat pumps in your house to to make your homes,

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<v Speaker 1>your your house more energy efficient. Revives solar tax credit

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<v Speaker 1>for rooftop solar. It's you know, it goes a long

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<v Speaker 1>way to making houses much more efficient, which was a

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<v Speaker 1>you know, inefficient homes or a huge source of greenhouts

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<v Speaker 1>gas emissions. So I get this sense. There's a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of what some I consider smaller things in this UM.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, they're not small to the people who benefit

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<v Speaker 1>from them or to the industries that they affect. But

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<v Speaker 1>you know, this started off much much much bigger than

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<v Speaker 1>than it was before. Um, you know it's what I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not hearing our emissions caps, you know on on really

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<v Speaker 1>big polluting industries. Well not only you're not hearing that,

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<v Speaker 1>you're you're you know, seeing some potential expansion of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>polluting industries, including the oily mainly the oil gas industry.

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<v Speaker 1>So you know, it's it's a mixed bag, to be sure.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because let's

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<v Speaker 1>get into that now, which is, uh, as we mentioned,

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<v Speaker 1>what did Mansion, Senator Mansion get as a result of

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<v Speaker 1>supporting this this package. So in addition to the climate measures,

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<v Speaker 1>there are also a lot of pro fossil fuel provisions

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<v Speaker 1>in this package. Let's get into that. Well. I think

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<v Speaker 1>ultimately what this is going to do is sort of, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, force the market to determine the future of

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<v Speaker 1>fossil fuels. And the way this works is that it's

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<v Speaker 1>tying uh future renewables development on federal land and waters,

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<v Speaker 1>so offshore wind for example, to um fossil fuels leasing

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<v Speaker 1>specifically oil and gas leasing and so you know the

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<v Speaker 1>Tacco messages, the the Interior Department can't permit wind and

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<v Speaker 1>solar projects without first holding oil and gas lease sales,

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<v Speaker 1>and so this is tied um renewables to fossil fuels

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<v Speaker 1>for the very first time. And it's the thing that

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<v Speaker 1>it's the reason that you see in a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>environmental groups calling this the poison pill. Well, so I

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<v Speaker 1>want to get into that because you and I have

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<v Speaker 1>talked before on this podcast about federal leasing up for

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<v Speaker 1>oil and gas and how the Trump administration really wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to get more and more lands out there that at

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<v Speaker 1>least the Biden administration wanted to. I mean, this is

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<v Speaker 1>probably exaggeration, but at least no lands for oil and

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<v Speaker 1>gas leasing. Um, it's not an exaggeration. Okay, So how

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<v Speaker 1>much interest is there because you know, oil prices are

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<v Speaker 1>high right now, but they could be coming back down

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<v Speaker 1>if there's a recession. Is there enough interest that there

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<v Speaker 1>are people want to bid on these lands and want

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<v Speaker 1>to bid on federal oil and gas trailing. Well, it's

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<v Speaker 1>complicated because you know the thing about so the administration,

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<v Speaker 1>the Biden administration has been forced to hold forced by

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<v Speaker 1>a court to hold at least one series of oil

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<v Speaker 1>and gas lease sales. There was definitely interest there, but

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<v Speaker 1>it was like it was pretty middling. But part of

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<v Speaker 1>that was that the industry knows that, you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>future of leasing on federal lands is uncertain, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>one of the things that this bill does. It it's

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<v Speaker 1>sort of you know, gives them a little bit more certainty. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, prior to the Biden administration, what you

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<v Speaker 1>were seeing was a lot of interest in leasing, and

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of it was speculation. U in places like Nevada,

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<v Speaker 1>where there's not a lot of oil and gas to

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<v Speaker 1>be produced, there's a tiny bit but um, but you

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<v Speaker 1>still had a lot of interest in places like Wyoming

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<v Speaker 1>and North Dakota, and especially southeast New Mexico and Southeast

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<v Speaker 1>New Mexico is really I mean, that's part of the

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<v Speaker 1>Permian Basin. That's kind of kind of where it's at

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<v Speaker 1>right now with with oil and gas production. So, but

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<v Speaker 1>could we see a situation where, you know, because oil

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<v Speaker 1>and gas leasing is now tied to renewable leasing, so

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<v Speaker 1>every time the Interior Department wants to lease some land

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<v Speaker 1>for renewable energy, they also have to you know, lease

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<v Speaker 1>some land for fossil fuels. Could we see this situation

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<v Speaker 1>where supply and demand gets way out of whack and

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<v Speaker 1>the supply is like way outstrips demand, and you see

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<v Speaker 1>these oil and gas leases go for like pennies on

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<v Speaker 1>the dollar. Well, you're already seeing oil and gas leases

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<v Speaker 1>go for pennies on the dollar. Um. You know, the

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<v Speaker 1>most recent oil and gastly sale, there were a bunch

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<v Speaker 1>that were that sold for the minimum bid, which was

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<v Speaker 1>two dollars an acre. So um. But you know, you're

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<v Speaker 1>you're seeing a lot of interest in areas that have

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<v Speaker 1>that have proven um oil and gas deposits. So again,

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<v Speaker 1>like the Permanent Basin or the Baking shale up in

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<v Speaker 1>North Dakota. So let's get back to this bill. Uh,

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<v Speaker 1>it hasn't passed. Its chances are pretty good now that

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<v Speaker 1>Center Mansion has signed on. But anything could happen, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>and one of those things is that environmentalists could choose

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<v Speaker 1>to oppose this bill. I mean, one of the folks

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<v Speaker 1>that we quoted in our story called this a climate

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<v Speaker 1>suicide pact because of all of the fossil fuel provisions here.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think that if environmentalists come out hard against this,

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<v Speaker 1>that they could stop it from from passing. Well, there's

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<v Speaker 1>no evidence that environmentalists are actually going to do that because, UM,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it's just judging by the press releases I've

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<v Speaker 1>seen in my my email inbox, there's a number of

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<v Speaker 1>groups that are that are calling for uh, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>support for this bill, and there are others like the

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<v Speaker 1>Center for Biological Diversity calling these you know, oil and

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<v Speaker 1>gas provisions a poison pill in this bill. Um. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>there's there's some truth to that because if you paid

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<v Speaker 1>attention to UM climate science, you know that we've got

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<v Speaker 1>to reduce screenhouse gas emissions as soon as possible. UM.

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<v Speaker 1>The question is like how much if you're tying wind

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<v Speaker 1>development to UM fossil fuels development on federal lands, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>how much is that going to make a difference? Like

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<v Speaker 1>most most oil and gas production in the US comes

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<v Speaker 1>from private lands. So UM, it's unclear. So it seems

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<v Speaker 1>like the uh, you know, a united environmentalist movement against

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<v Speaker 1>this bill might kill it. But the environ anialist movements,

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<v Speaker 1>based on what you just said, is definitely not united

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<v Speaker 1>against this move bill. It's not united, um, and uh

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's going to be fascinating to watch. Finally, I

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to talk about another story that you just wrote,

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<v Speaker 1>which I thought was really fantastic. Orphan oil and gas wells.

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<v Speaker 1>And these are oil and gas wells that at one

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<v Speaker 1>point produced but are not anymore, but have not really

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<v Speaker 1>been sealed up and are still you know, have harmful

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<v Speaker 1>chemicals trickling out of them. Tell me first off, tell

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<v Speaker 1>me a little bit about what's going on there and

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<v Speaker 1>are is there going to be more money to help

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<v Speaker 1>seal up these wells? Yeah? So, UM there's uh four

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<v Speaker 1>point seven billion dollars in the Infrastructure Law to UM

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<v Speaker 1>that was passed last year to help to clean up

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<v Speaker 1>these wells. There are millions of these wells nationwide, and

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<v Speaker 1>the issue with these wells is that they are a

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<v Speaker 1>huge source of methane emissions that contribute to climate change.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of these are unplugged UM and there are

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<v Speaker 1>also a source of water pollution UM and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>they could potentially explode your house if you have one. UM.

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<v Speaker 1>Most of these are in Appalachia. Were mostly though not

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<v Speaker 1>completely talking about older wells that have been around for

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<v Speaker 1>a hundred years. There's plenty of newer ones to UM,

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<v Speaker 1>especially in the West, but you know, The focus of

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<v Speaker 1>this is is in you know, places like Pennsylvania where

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<v Speaker 1>the oil and gas industry was born in the US

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<v Speaker 1>back in the late eighteen fifties. UM, and uh like

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<v Speaker 1>places like New York and Kentucky and West Virginia and Ohio. UM.

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<v Speaker 1>But you also have a lot of these abandoned wells

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<v Speaker 1>in in Texas and New Mexico and Oklahoma in those places. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>And you went to McKean County, Pennsylvania and spoke with

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<v Speaker 1>cheryld Thomas, who hasn't abandoned oil well on her property

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<v Speaker 1>and let's hear from her now, ums, forty yards right there,

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<v Speaker 1>not even forty yards and this is going into the

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<v Speaker 1>water table somehow, coming up out of the ground and

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<v Speaker 1>hitting a crick. This is a direct tributary to Allegheny River.

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<v Speaker 1>So that was Cheryl Thomas in McKean County, Pennsylvania. Is

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<v Speaker 1>there gonna be enough money to uh to to fix this? Uh?

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<v Speaker 1>You just mentioned there's a lot of money in the

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<v Speaker 1>infrastructure bill last year. Is that enough? The answer is no,

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<v Speaker 1>And there probably won't be enough ever to uh to

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<v Speaker 1>locate all of these wells because a lot of them

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<v Speaker 1>people don't know where they are. UM. They know where

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<v Speaker 1>maybe twenty seven thousand or so are and say Pennsylvania. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>But um, this money just scratches the surface. And you know,

0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:41.360
<v Speaker 1>maybe Cheryl Thomas will have her well finally plugged. She

0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:43.959
<v Speaker 1>said she had sixty of them on her property. Um,

0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:46.079
<v Speaker 1>most of those have already been plugged, but that one

0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.160
<v Speaker 1>just hadn't because it was going to be so expensive,

0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:50.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, possibly more than a million dollars to plug that.

0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:54.920
<v Speaker 1>In other similar wells, they're really hard to get to. UM.

0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.280
<v Speaker 1>But you know, there are just so many that you know,

0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.640
<v Speaker 1>the Biden administration or in Congress can can throw billions

0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:04.679
<v Speaker 1>of dollars at this problem, and it's it's gonna there's

0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:07.440
<v Speaker 1>just there's just too many to plug. If the federal

0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.720
<v Speaker 1>government can't afford to fix this, and I mean to

0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:14.560
<v Speaker 1>say nothing of the states, um, and the private sector

0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:17.240
<v Speaker 1>can't fix this because the companies that dug these wells

0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:22.520
<v Speaker 1>are long gone. Who's left? I mean you know what well?

0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:24.839
<v Speaker 1>I mean this is this is the trade off. You

0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:28.199
<v Speaker 1>you know, the oil and gas industry has been operating

0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.240
<v Speaker 1>for well over a century, and you know there are

0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:34.440
<v Speaker 1>long term consequences of of that kind of development. And

0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:38.400
<v Speaker 1>one of those consequences is the possibility that companies are

0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:41.400
<v Speaker 1>not going to um, you know, take care of their

0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:45.240
<v Speaker 1>abandoned the wells that they that they're essentially leaving behind.

0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:47.520
<v Speaker 1>Many of them will just walk away. And you know,

0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:50.800
<v Speaker 1>before there were regulations, that's what a lot of them did. UM.

0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:52.640
<v Speaker 1>And there aren't a lot of records about who those

0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.839
<v Speaker 1>companies were and where these wells are. UM. So it's

0:13:55.880 --> 0:14:00.200
<v Speaker 1>an it's an ongoing project. The money represents progress, right,

0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:02.440
<v Speaker 1>some of them are going to get and perhaps thousands

0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.839
<v Speaker 1>of them are going to get plugged, but um, many many,

0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.199
<v Speaker 1>many others are not. All right. That was Bobby McGill

0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:13.400
<v Speaker 1>speaking with us about the Climate Bill in Congress and

0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:18.280
<v Speaker 1>abandoned oil wells. Thanks Bobby, Thank you. And that's it

0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:20.880
<v Speaker 1>for today's Parts per Billion. If you want more environmental news,

0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:23.160
<v Speaker 1>check us out on Twitter. We use a pretty easy

0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.440
<v Speaker 1>to remember handle. It's at Environment. Just that at Environment.

0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:28.960
<v Speaker 1>Today's episode of Parts for Billion was produced by myself,

0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:31.280
<v Speaker 1>David Schultz. Parts for Billion was created by Jessica Coombs

0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:33.560
<v Speaker 1>and Rachel Dagle and is edited by Zach Sherwood and

0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:37.280
<v Speaker 1>Chuck McCutcheon. Our executive producer is Josh Block. Thanks for

0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:42.920
<v Speaker 1>listening everyone. Have you ever thought to yourself, how is

0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:46.480
<v Speaker 1>that legal? Why is that legal? Have you ever seen

0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.200
<v Speaker 1>a big trial in the news and wondered what's really

0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.520
<v Speaker 1>happening there? Have you ever pondered the question why are

0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:55.000
<v Speaker 1>lawyers the way that they are? And how much money

0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:57.840
<v Speaker 1>do they really make? Anyway, these are the things we

0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:00.840
<v Speaker 1>live and breathe over it. On the Merits, Bloomberg Law's

0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:04.400
<v Speaker 1>weekly legal news podcast. On the Merits looks into the

0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.360
<v Speaker 1>biggest stories playing out in the legal industry right now,

0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:11.040
<v Speaker 1>and we feature the finest journalists covering the biggest legal

0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:14.320
<v Speaker 1>stories from across the Bloomberglaw newsroom. You can hear it

0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:17.400
<v Speaker 1>wherever fine podcasts are found. Thanks for listening.