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Speaker 1: com to find your cable channel. All right, John, Obviously,
Speaker 1: the story of the draft with Shnur Sanders had just dominated.
Speaker 1: Milkiper lost his mind. So I want to I want
Speaker 1: to throw, I want to start with this and you
Speaker 1: know this so well. Basically I would have drafted Shadhor
Speaker 1: Sanders if I was the Pittsburgh Steelers. So I don't
Speaker 1: think they needed a defensive lineman as much as they
Speaker 1: needed in a division. With Joe Burrow and Lamar Jackson
Speaker 1: in the Conference, with Josh Allen, Justin Herbert and Patrick
Speaker 1: Mahomes and c J. Stroud, they don't have a quarterback
Speaker 1: room of note. I think Will Howard's are backup in
Speaker 1: the NFL, So congratulations on getting another defensive lineman. But
Speaker 1: I would have drafted Shadhor Sanders. That said, once he
Speaker 1: started falling in the draft, I started making calls. I
Speaker 1: went on the internet and it was very interesting. So
Speaker 1: two general managers who I hold in sort of my
Speaker 1: like circle of trust and I think are really as
Speaker 1: good as general managing gets in this league. Not Howie Roseman,
Speaker 1: but there's another eight guys or so that I really like.
Speaker 1: You know, a couple of them had said to my
Speaker 1: friend Steve Kime Goud. Steve Kime had asked, because he
Speaker 1: had Jalen Milroe as a client for Clutch Sports, and
Speaker 1: he had asked a couple of Jim friends, Hey, about
Speaker 1: a month ago, what do you make of Shador Sanders?
Speaker 1: And both said, you know, his tape isn't great. Uh, Like,
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of stuff you don't like
Speaker 1: on his tape, and he's not a great athlete. But
Speaker 1: that said, I still think he's accurate enough to be
Speaker 1: a you know, in a bad quarterback draft class to
Speaker 1: to not fall to where he fell. But I'm gonna
Speaker 1: I'm gonna start with this, which I talked about on
Speaker 1: my own YouTube. Uh you know pod this weekend is
Speaker 1: that when a guy does fall and you're seeking answers
Speaker 1: for it, you start going back and examining things, and
Speaker 1: things also start to surface after the first round. Stories
Speaker 1: start to surface that we're not talked about pre first round.
Speaker 1: Clearly the interviews were worse then. It wasn't just a
Speaker 1: story that bothered people. It was true and there were
Speaker 1: more than one instance of a bad interview. But I
Speaker 1: had said this too, is that once you didn't see
Speaker 1: Shador Sanders as a starter because of the smoke and
Speaker 1: noise around him with Dion basically his dad at Super
Speaker 1: Bowl week saying we're going to control this. There are
Speaker 1: certain teams were not going to play for Travis is
Speaker 1: going to go one, my son's going to go three.
Speaker 1: That I did wonder John like the t Boar Cam
Speaker 1: Newton effect. If he's not the starter. Do you want
Speaker 1: the Dion noise as a backup for a year? Do
Speaker 1: you think that is what teams thought about once you
Speaker 1: got to the second round? Is okay, now he's a
Speaker 1: backup and I'm not sure teams love that t Bow
Speaker 1: level noise celebrity quarterback backup stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean obviously, like you, I did a lot
Speaker 2: of dig in these last couple of days because I
Speaker 2: liked him as a player, and I just assumed he'd
Speaker 2: go somewhere between like ten and forty five. Yeah, somewhere,
Speaker 2: maybe in the first round, maybe in the second round.
Speaker 2: So when he precipitous fall of the fifth round, you
Speaker 2: get to start texting around. And You've said this for
Speaker 2: a long time. Quarterbacks are held to an unfair standard.
Speaker 2: It's also why they make fifty million dollars a year,
Speaker 2: you know. I mean, it's also why I would say
Speaker 2: they are now viewed as the biggest celebrity in sports,
Speaker 2: right up there with like, I mean, a level of
Speaker 2: like Lebron and Steph Curry. Immediately, yes, So I would say,
Speaker 2: from what I've heard, he had one of the worst
Speaker 2: off seasons that these teams have ever seen from a
Speaker 2: quarterback prospect. And that could be from a first rounder
Speaker 2: to a seventh rounder, right right, Because they're all they
Speaker 2: all act you are a product of your class.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: So if I'm a good looking girl and I walk
Speaker 2: into a bar and there are ten supermodels, I'm not
Speaker 2: going to be viewed as highly as if I walk
Speaker 2: into a room with a bunch of ugly people, and
Speaker 2: in this class, it was a bunch of high level cats.
Speaker 2: Cam Ward, I know people with the Titans.
Speaker 3: They loved him.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Drew Brees said this a long time ago. Playing quarterback
Speaker 2: is like seventy thirty intangible off the field upstairs thirty
Speaker 2: my physical qualities. Peyton Manning couldn't beat me or you
Speaker 2: in a race. He didn't have a big arm. Tom
Speaker 2: Brady said he I couldn't play any other position in
Speaker 2: high school football beside quarterback. So this class from Jalen Milroe,
Speaker 2: people love the guy. Dylan Gabriel, he had to be
Speaker 2: one of the favorites when it came to the coaching staffs.
Speaker 2: Obviously the Will Howard's, the Riley Leonards. These guys are
Speaker 2: the most impressive people.
Speaker 3: Of the entire draft.
Speaker 2: When these coaches and these gms are meeting with them,
Speaker 2: they leave the room and these coaches go, God, I wish,
Speaker 2: I wish Riley Leonard, Will Howard were better players.
Speaker 3: They went.
Speaker 2: They get drafted in the fifth, sixth, seventh round. Most
Speaker 2: people think, yeah, he's probably not gonna be in the
Speaker 2: NFL long, but we love the guy. And shadors Off
Speaker 2: the field. It's not bad, never been in trouble or anything.
Speaker 2: But when you act, there are only so many teams
Speaker 2: right supply demand thing. Well, six teams last year drafted
Speaker 2: quarterbacks in the top six. They're immediately out. There are
Speaker 2: several quarterbacks on rookie contracts. They're not going to be
Speaker 2: in the mix. And then the veteran teams Andy Reid,
Speaker 2: the Bills, the Ravens, they're just consumed. We're trying to
Speaker 2: win the Super Bowl right now. So it's a small,
Speaker 2: small group. Yeah, right, So the small group, well, those
Speaker 2: were the people he met with and clearly turned them off.
Speaker 2: And mcshay's been coming out with this report what happened
Speaker 2: with the giants of like I don't need you. That
Speaker 2: never happens, And I think it's become popular because if
Speaker 2: you look at these comments online, it's like, go against
Speaker 2: the establishment, go against the man. It's like, guys, this
Speaker 2: is a business that if you're decent, you will make
Speaker 2: forty million dollars a year. Find me another industry that
Speaker 2: pays that level. And if you're like cam Ward, who
Speaker 2: was viewed as a fifth round pick, comes back, does
Speaker 2: all the right things, plays well, people love the guy
Speaker 2: he's a first round pick, he's gonna get forty million
Speaker 2: dollars guaranteed. So if he stinks, if he's Trey Lance
Speaker 2: a good example, people love the guy couldn't play, but
Speaker 2: he made forty million dollars. You know, So this to
Speaker 2: carry yourself. Listen, we all look up to our parents,
Speaker 2: right or whoever raises us. And he looks up to
Speaker 2: his dad. His dad is one of the greatest players
Speaker 2: of all time, right, and his dad can act however
Speaker 2: he wants, just like great players can always act however
Speaker 2: they want, because in a business like pro sports, they're
Speaker 2: gonna there are only so many of them. His son
Speaker 2: was not that, and I think that really turned people off.
Speaker 2: The other thing that really bothers me is this narrative
Speaker 2: of like this is the NFL pushing back against nil.
Speaker 2: It's like, guys, Kim Ward just made like three million
Speaker 2: dollars playing at Miami the NFL, every GM's a millionaire.
Speaker 2: Every assistant coach now is probably a millionaire. And obviously
Speaker 2: the head coaches are all making ten to fifty. They
Speaker 2: don't care at all. Travis Hunter, I googled his NIL deal.
Speaker 2: I mean it was reported between four and five million dollars.
Speaker 2: It's not being a good person. I mean all these
Speaker 2: kids in college, the entire first and second round, they
Speaker 2: were driving rain drovers in g wagons last year in college.
Speaker 2: It's not about the money or the nil was just
Speaker 2: like one. There were a lot of red flags guys
Speaker 2: that were drafted well above Shador Sanders. Those guys are
Speaker 2: viewed as good players.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: I think chadors a solid prospect. So but what I've
Speaker 2: heard about the way he's acting like he would be
Speaker 2: an immediate turn off to any human being right in
Speaker 2: any industry. That's not how young people act. And I
Speaker 2: think that they tried to change their tactics from what
Speaker 2: I've heard the last months, but it was too late.
Speaker 2: It's hard to pivot. And again, you're just compared, like
Speaker 2: they view you in a group with Jalen Milroe and
Speaker 2: Dylan Gabriel and so that's who you're compared to. You're
Speaker 2: not compared to cam Ward. He has nothing in common
Speaker 2: with you, but he already people like him.
Speaker 3: On and off the field.
Speaker 2: So the group you're compared to, it's like, well, we
Speaker 2: love the people, what's up with this guy? Anytime it's like,
Speaker 2: what's up with this guy? And you play quarterback. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's a problem.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I talked to an NFL general manager yesterday and
Speaker 1: he said, he said, Colin, he said, the conversation we
Speaker 1: talk about players in this league, the conversation with quarterbacks
Speaker 1: is a separate conversation we talk about We talk about
Speaker 1: quarterbacks like I would as a GM talk about coaching prospects.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about your temperament, your leadership. One of this
Speaker 1: gms said, when I hire coaches, very rarely will you
Speaker 1: get Andy Reid or Kyle Shanahan's scheme excellence. You're hiring CEOs.
Speaker 1: Mcvey's a CEO. Dan Campbell's not a scheme genius. He's
Speaker 1: a CEO. And he said, that's what you're So he goes,
Speaker 1: that's what a quarterback is. He's your CEO on the field.
Speaker 1: So temperament, maturity, Do guys rally around him? So the interview,
Speaker 1: how do you hire Sean mcvah Not let him out
Speaker 1: of the building. It's not his resume, it's his interview.
Speaker 1: And so I do think and this stuff. You know,
Speaker 1: obviously Brian Dabole the Giants is going to say it. Oh,
Speaker 1: the interview was great because Brian Dable has to go
Speaker 1: back on that Colorado campus over the next four or
Speaker 1: five years or next ten years. So you'll never hear
Speaker 1: a coach bang on a university or a coach because
Speaker 1: that coach is going to have four to five NFL
Speaker 1: players the next year. So you just swallow it and go, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was a great interview. But I think there's more
Speaker 1: than enough smoke here that that that process wasn't great.
Speaker 1: And I know, I'll say it again, I do not
Speaker 1: like and again I did not think this would be
Speaker 1: an issue, but I was forced to talk about it.
Speaker 1: Once he's dropping out of the first, the second, the third,
Speaker 1: the fourth, then I'm forced to talk about it. And
Speaker 1: my take was, well, if you're really making me pick,
Speaker 1: what's a problem. I do think Dion during Super Bowl
Speaker 1: Week exclaiming this is on our terms. It wasn't until
Speaker 1: mid to late March that Dion went Okay, he can
Speaker 1: go anywhere. And I think it pissed people off. I
Speaker 1: know I know one team that was totally turned off.
Speaker 1: And remember, you go into a draft, John, as you
Speaker 1: noted earlier, there's usually, like, for instance, to Rams, the
Speaker 1: Rams decided before this draft they were going after a
Speaker 1: quarterback next year that the Rams made a decision in house,
Speaker 1: we probably need to get one in house, but we're
Speaker 1: going to go for it next year. That's why they
Speaker 1: made that trade with Atlanta to get two first next year,
Speaker 1: because their first will be deep. So they're looking for
Speaker 1: a top twelve to fifteen first and if they have
Speaker 1: to use both to get like the second pick, because
Speaker 1: you're going to have Drew Aller Clemson's quarterback arch Manning,
Speaker 1: so if they want to get up to like third
Speaker 1: or fourth in the draft, they need a second one.
Speaker 1: So the Rams. There's about seven teams a year that
Speaker 1: need a quarterback, either as a starter or a backup,
Speaker 1: and the Rams immediately decided with their trade, we're getting
Speaker 1: ours next year.
Speaker 2: I think if you just looked at all the starters
Speaker 2: in the league that teams are either obviously elated to
Speaker 2: have or feel good about, I don't think you would
Speaker 2: find one that isn't basically an A plus off the field.
Speaker 2: And I think the one guy who's clear nearly mature.
Speaker 2: I don't know if Kyler Murray would fall under a plus,
Speaker 2: but he's clearly matured. I mean now living in Arizona,
Speaker 2: seeing the comments from him and from a talent standpoint,
Speaker 2: I mean, you're older than me. He's got to be
Speaker 2: one of the most unique talents in the history of
Speaker 2: pro sports. I mean, he's one of the great blue
Speaker 2: chip physical attribute talents in any sport. Ever, we won't
Speaker 2: see a guy again get drafted in the top ten
Speaker 2: and number one over court. He's TIPE ninth. So it's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: it was a learning curve in his maturity. He's matured.
Speaker 2: Some guy's mature slower. We've seen Baker and some of
Speaker 2: these guys, but for the most part, they are a
Speaker 2: plus everything in terms of leadership, in tangibles, work ethic,
Speaker 2: people just like being around. There's no question. It never
Speaker 2: comes up. The last unit in the building I want
Speaker 2: to think ever about is my overall quarterback unit, not
Speaker 2: even just my starter, just the group. I know I'm
Speaker 2: going to have a couple d line issues, maybe a
Speaker 2: wide receiver, the quarterback issue. It's the last thing on
Speaker 2: my mind beside like an injury or something that I
Speaker 2: have to make like a tangible transaction for He basically
Speaker 2: handed him like they started seeing what they see in
Speaker 2: other positions and they're like, this is insane, and this
Speaker 2: notion that like the collusion and stuff. It's just it
Speaker 2: was honestly kind of embarrassing by a lot of people
Speaker 2: around the NFL. I think, you know, former players and stuff.
Speaker 3: I think it was.
Speaker 2: Bad luck by a lot of people that have no
Speaker 2: fucking clue what they're talking about.
Speaker 1: So I asked Jimmy Johnson once in the green room
Speaker 1: at Fox. I would get there early and it Pepperham
Speaker 1: with questions, and Jimmy taught me more football than anybody
Speaker 1: I've ever met. And I said, what's the most important thing?
Speaker 1: The number one quality? And I was surprised by because
Speaker 1: you know, those Miami programs were considered renegade. And he goes, oh, intelligence,
Speaker 1: he goes, Colin, I think I'm a good coach. If
Speaker 1: you don't take to my coaching, I'm just an average coach.
Speaker 1: If you don't take to Andy Reid's coaching or Sean
Speaker 1: mcvay's coaching, well then those are less successful coaches. You
Speaker 1: have to get people that can you can insert stuff
Speaker 1: and they can pick it up quickly. I can remember
Speaker 1: when Randy Moss came to the Patriots. Dude, it was
Speaker 1: one practice and they were like, yeah, he knows the offense.
Speaker 1: It's like Randy just knew the game of football.
Speaker 3: And it was funny.
Speaker 1: I remember people asking. I mean, I can remember the interviews,
Speaker 1: and it was just like, yeah, yeah, he just kind
Speaker 1: of picked everything up. He didn't have to tell Randy
Speaker 1: Moss anything twice, Like he just instinctually knew what to
Speaker 1: do as a football player.
Speaker 2: You know, obviously this guy, you know, can be a
Speaker 2: pain sometimes and you know, got some stuff going on
Speaker 2: right now Tyreek Hill. But I remember talking to Andy
Speaker 2: Reid years ago picking his brain on draft players or
Speaker 2: you know, it was like a month before the draft,
Speaker 2: and we started talking about stuff like this, and he says,
Speaker 2: people don't understand how smart Tyreek Hill is in terms
Speaker 2: of offense. I tell him one thing, He's picked it
Speaker 2: up for the rest of the year. So it's like,
Speaker 2: why did they have so much success? Obviously he's got
Speaker 2: special physical skills. They could do everything with them. Why
Speaker 2: do some guys that are these great talents, like, why
Speaker 2: aren't they using them more? He doesn't know what he
Speaker 2: he's doing. He's like a Randy Moss of Tyreek Hill.
Speaker 2: You tell him one time in the middle of August,
Speaker 2: I pull that out in November and a tie game
Speaker 2: in the fourth quarter when it's freezing cold against the
Speaker 2: Ravens Boom, He's like, yeah, coach, no problem, run it,
Speaker 2: run it again. He comes to me with ideas, and
Speaker 2: that separates these guys. Most of the best players you
Speaker 2: look around at positions I'd even say historically are football geniuses,
Speaker 2: from Ed Reid to Ronnie Lott, any position right. Look
Speaker 2: look at Travis Kelsey, Him and Patrick Mahomes make up
Speaker 2: routes on It's like, why can't anyone cover Travis because
Speaker 2: they're not running place He runs whatever you go the
Speaker 2: opposite way. And it's from a football intellect standpoint, And
Speaker 2: he's a good example, and this is why the draft
Speaker 2: is so hard. He was a major red flag coming
Speaker 2: out of college. He's even talked about it, and he's
Speaker 2: he matured as a human, but in terms of his
Speaker 2: football IQ, like, you know, it's why some of these
Speaker 2: guys are going to fail. They can play, it's because
Speaker 2: they're not going to mature or they're not going to
Speaker 2: be able to handle football. And some of these guys,
Speaker 2: like the Ohio State crew of guys, I think it's
Speaker 2: a bunch of on defense, bunch of higher care are tough,
Speaker 2: physical guys, yeah, but I think a lot of people
Speaker 2: viewing their their physical attributes aren't elite. You watch, I
Speaker 2: bet the group the middle linebacker, the couple pass rushers
Speaker 2: play in the league for like a decade, right, because
Speaker 2: that's that stuff usually matten. Now, I don't know how
Speaker 2: good of a players are going to be, but they're
Speaker 2: going to be around for a while, guarantee it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I went. When I watched Cody Simon play for
Speaker 1: Ohio State, it was amazing. He it was as if
Speaker 1: he knew where it was going. You would watch teams
Speaker 1: run motion and Cody Simon would just fill a gap,
Speaker 1: move and the ball always came to him. That was
Speaker 1: one of the players. He was one of my favorite
Speaker 1: players in the draft. I think Ohio State has so
Speaker 1: many good players. And to your point, these Ohio State guys.
Speaker 1: Simon is such a character guy and Mecca at Buka
Speaker 1: like a plus plus plus plus.
Speaker 2: Kis JTT that crew.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just you know that's and so credit to Ohio
Speaker 1: State and Ryan Day and because they've got they have
Speaker 1: created a program with those guys come out and they're
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Speaker 1: So I think it's interesting. So Houston is a team
Speaker 1: that I said this today on FS one is that
Speaker 1: Oklahoma City is a similarly young team but better, and
Speaker 1: they've got a ton of draft picks. You're not going
Speaker 1: to leapfrog them. Whereas every one of their young players
Speaker 1: to me, has sort of a defined role. Houston has
Speaker 1: Jalen Green, who's athletic, but I still don't know what
Speaker 1: his offensive game is in the half court. He's just athletic.
Speaker 1: And so I do think Houston's going to have to
Speaker 1: make take a swing. I think Kevin Durant fits well,
Speaker 1: maybe they get into the I mean they may have
Speaker 1: more than anybody for Giannis. We're talking about this. Jason
Speaker 1: McIntyre and I were talking about this and I said
Speaker 1: I would, I would. Houston has told people Amen Thompson
Speaker 1: no chance, and it's funny watching him tonight with five
Speaker 1: steals in the first half. When I watch M. N Thompson,
Speaker 1: I absolutely know what he is. He's a physical, tough
Speaker 1: defense often is the best part of his game, hustle.
Speaker 1: He has a defined even though he's a kid, he
Speaker 1: has a defined game, and that's one of the first
Speaker 1: things I look for. Actually, if Zion could have stayed
Speaker 1: in shape, I thought he had a very defined game,
Speaker 1: Like I knew what he was. Jalen Green, I don't
Speaker 1: know what he is, and I always feel like I
Speaker 1: don't care if it's a talk show host or a
Speaker 1: basketball player or a politician. If you don't, if you can't,
Speaker 1: kind of what are you? And if I'm struggling with
Speaker 1: that three years into your political career, it's like, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure you are anything other than maybe smart or
Speaker 1: aspirational or driven. So I think I look at it
Speaker 1: and I think if they went into the Yannis sweepstakes,
Speaker 1: you'd have to give up two really good players. Would
Speaker 1: you give up sham Goon, Jalen Green and two firsts?
Speaker 1: Because I think if I'm Milwaukee, I'm going to have
Speaker 1: multiple suitors. I'm going to get a Malik an og
Speaker 1: and four. You know, I don't think the Knicks. You know,
Speaker 1: I gave up so many first for Michale Bridges. Let's
Speaker 1: just talk Houston. What would Houston give up in your opinion?
Speaker 1: You run the Rockets for Yannis.
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, Colin at the rig, I'm going
Speaker 5: to try not to be too insensitive here, but I'll
Speaker 5: tell you what Jalen Green is. He's salary filler. That's
Speaker 5: what he is. At this point in his career. He
Speaker 5: has demonstrated through multiple years with Houston that there are
Speaker 5: certain things that he just hasn't figured out and tries
Speaker 5: to how to bring consistent winning impact every single game.
Speaker 5: When he's got his pull up three point shot going
Speaker 5: and he's making good decisions at the rim, he looks
Speaker 5: like an all star caliber player that can lift that
Speaker 5: team to greatness. But two out of three games he
Speaker 5: struggles to accomplish those things, and then suddenly the inattentiveness
Speaker 5: off ball, the poor decision making, all that just rises
Speaker 5: to the surface. And so he needs to go somewhere
Speaker 5: where he can go make mistakes for a while because
Speaker 5: he just needs a lot of time, right and you know,
Speaker 5: Amn Thompson, to me, should be untouchable. I would not
Speaker 5: give up a mental honest, I think that unlike the
Speaker 5: only reason I would ever consider giving up a player
Speaker 5: of a men Thompson's caliber is if I was certain
Speaker 5: that we would be a runaway favorite the next season,
Speaker 5: you know, like like, for instance, if OKC wanted to
Speaker 5: make a move for Yannis, they should be more willing
Speaker 5: to part with someone like a Jalen Williams for instance,
Speaker 5: when when you consider the fact that they would immediately
Speaker 5: become a runaway championship favorite, right, But Houston with Jannis
Speaker 5: is still like they'd be very good defensively, but it
Speaker 5: wouldn't be perfect, right. A Men Thompson is the level
Speaker 5: of prospect that I think has the potential to be
Speaker 5: like the Scottie Pippen of this era, most the most
Speaker 5: devastating perimeter athlete defensively that we have in the sport.
Speaker 5: Intimidate but he has exactly but he has a lot
Speaker 5: more offensive pop than people realize, and wait till he
Speaker 5: starts to piece some of these parts of his game together.
Speaker 5: He can handle the ball a little bit. He's got
Speaker 5: a pretty decent set of moves in one on one situations.
Speaker 5: Once he polishes up mainly the short range mid range
Speaker 5: shot making and adds a little bit of muscle, he's
Speaker 5: gonna be a guy that can easily average twenty points
Speaker 5: a game in this league, very efficiently, potentially more.
Speaker 1: And he is really a physical I mean most young
Speaker 1: players Jason are not that physical. He has a twenty
Speaker 1: nine to thirty three year old physicality to him.
Speaker 5: When I watch him play, it's it's the type of
Speaker 5: athlete that is most valuable in the modern MBA, which
Speaker 5: is rangy but also strong because there's a lot of
Speaker 5: rangy dudes that can get shoved around. But like there's
Speaker 5: a when you can bring physicality and the ability to
Speaker 5: cover ground. I mean, that's what made Draymond, you know,
Speaker 5: the best defensive player of this era, as he could
Speaker 5: cover ground, but he was also big and strong and
Speaker 5: could win ground battles and there's there's a ton of
Speaker 5: value there. So like if I was running the rockets,
Speaker 5: I would literally I would negotiate earnestly, but I'd get
Speaker 5: a deal done. And what I mean by that is
Speaker 5: everything's on the table. But Aman Thompson, if you want
Speaker 5: shanguon Jabari Smith Junior and Jalen Green will make it happen,
Speaker 5: you know, like whatever it is you need to do
Speaker 5: to make it happen. Because one of the things that
Speaker 5: Houston has is depth. They just have a lot of
Speaker 5: good players. They can afford to give up three rotational
Speaker 5: players for Giannis and not be in a situation where
Speaker 5: they don't have the requisite talent to compete next year.
Speaker 1: I want to throw something at ja. This was my
Speaker 1: take on the Knicks Pistons is a year ago, the
Speaker 1: Pistons were in a rebuild and the Knick stop McHale
Speaker 1: Bridges was going to get them right up next to Boston,
Speaker 1: and yet five point separates he seems in five games.
Speaker 1: And my take is they gave up a little too
Speaker 1: much for mcale Bridges. Though I think everybody, myself included,
Speaker 1: kind of liked the deal. But the problem was when
Speaker 1: you're talking VSA v Nicks Celtics, is that Jalen Brunson
Speaker 1: og and Michale Bridges and Cat we know what they are.
Speaker 1: Tatum made a leap and Peyton Pritchard went from Nina
Speaker 1: game to the best guy in the league off the bench,
Speaker 1: and so two of the Celtics because Jalen Brown has
Speaker 1: established what he is. Tatum is playing with a confidence
Speaker 1: today that we thought he should have been playing with
Speaker 1: four years ago. I don't think his skills necessarily that
Speaker 1: much better, but go look at his first quarter scoring
Speaker 1: against Orlando. He's a much more aggressive player. And by
Speaker 1: the way Steph's been burned by this is that Steph
Speaker 1: sometimes defers. Steph's smart collaborative, a great teammate. NBA fans,
Speaker 1: and it's not a criticism, it's a reality. They reward
Speaker 1: aggressive even if it's like over the top Westbrook aggressiveness,
Speaker 1: like they just I mean, and Westbrook jumps off the
Speaker 1: TV much. I mean, just you can't when he's on
Speaker 1: the floor, you can't. Okay, Westbrook's right there, there could
Speaker 1: be a seven footer. That's just I always said with
Speaker 1: Andrew Wiggins, is he on the floor? Is he playing?
Speaker 3: Does he have?
Speaker 1: I mean? So, my point being is is that the
Speaker 1: problem that the Knicks face and I think they have
Speaker 1: to swing big, is they thought McHale bridges really bridge
Speaker 1: the gap. They were inches behind Boston, Tatum Pops, Pritchard pops,
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh god, they did they lost ground? Actually,
Speaker 1: so I look at the Knicks and think let's not
Speaker 1: waste our time here. Cleveland and Boston both got significantly better.
Speaker 1: New York is what. They just have good players. They've
Speaker 1: got to take a big swing.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 5: I think I think people have missed the point on
Speaker 5: Boston in a lot of ways, in the sense that
Speaker 5: they look at them as a team that's led by
Speaker 5: all these big wings that are super versatile, and I
Speaker 5: think that was the direction that the Knicks were trying
Speaker 5: to match. That's right, but it's much more of a
Speaker 5: team wide concept of the ability to piece together these
Speaker 5: lineups where everyone can guard. That's really the foundational concept
Speaker 5: that makes the Celtics so unbeatable if you look at it.
Speaker 5: Mikale bridges og Andnobi and Josh Hart in theory, are
Speaker 5: these three rangy wings that can do a lot of
Speaker 5: work defensively, but because they're bracketed by these two week points,
Speaker 5: there's almost like a diminishing return and having that type
Speaker 5: of defensive talent because of the way teams can still
Speaker 5: get them in rotation, like it's still the Pistons in
Speaker 5: the half court, Kate Cunningham bringing Jalen Brunson's man into
Speaker 5: the action and getting great looks attacking even though he's
Speaker 5: got ogn and Obi on him. Whereas if you're with
Speaker 5: the Celtics and you run that exact same thing at
Speaker 5: a Derek White good luck, you run that exact same
Speaker 5: thing at a Drew Holliday good luck, and Peyton Pritchard
Speaker 5: competes his ass off defensively. And so that really is
Speaker 5: the foundational trait that everybody's missing. Is like you're seeing
Speaker 5: this situation where the Knicks copied almost on the margins
Speaker 5: in a way that has a diminishing return because of
Speaker 5: their bill. They almost would have been better off looking
Speaker 5: for like waiting, holding their firepower for a better player
Speaker 5: than putting all their cards in the McHale Bridges type
Speaker 5: of basket, because McHale Bridges would have been more valuable
Speaker 5: if Jalen Brunson and Karl Anthony Towns were replaced by
Speaker 5: more versatile, defensive minded stars, and they're just not. And
Speaker 5: so I think the ultimately it doesn't matter how good
Speaker 5: you're on ball defender is if I can put him
Speaker 5: in an action that gets me an advantage.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I kind of fell for it. I thought McHale
Speaker 1: Bridges got him close. I didn't think he would be
Speaker 1: better but I thought, oh, they'll compete. They could win
Speaker 1: a game, maybe a second in a seven game series,
Speaker 1: or you know, you know, and it's like, no, okay,
Speaker 1: I have to mention this. As I've always said, in
Speaker 1: our business, and you're in this business, is I'm not.
Speaker 1: It's not flip flopping. If you give me new stuff,
Speaker 1: I'll have a new opinion. I have never liked six
Speaker 1: four and under players Derreck Rose, John Wall Westbrook that
Speaker 1: can't aren't pure shooters, Nash Curry, the little guys don't
Speaker 1: lead the titles anyway. Historically, Curry's an outliar. Isaiah Thomas, both,
Speaker 1: by the way, really good perimeter shooters. Therefore, when you're
Speaker 1: six four and under and can't, especially with no hand check,
Speaker 1: you get to the rim and you get hit by
Speaker 1: the redwoods and you just hit the floor too often.
Speaker 1: Now Dwayne Wade had a little bit of this because
Speaker 1: he was never a gifted outside shooter. But Dwayne was
Speaker 1: built like a like a running back. I mean, he's
Speaker 1: he looks like an NFL player. So I was always
Speaker 1: like with Westbrook, I'm like, listen, man, this is just
Speaker 1: it just doesn't work for me. But I said, I
Speaker 1: watched him last night, and I thought he was last night.
Speaker 1: The tone center of every great player in that game
Speaker 1: is that Jamal Murray would have an amazing second half.
Speaker 1: Jokic was off. I never trust Gordon or Porter offensively,
Speaker 1: although I really love Gordon as a player. He is
Speaker 1: so relentless that he almost makes team mates guilty if
Speaker 1: they don't play with energy. Like I mean, you can
Speaker 1: see why, like Harden and Westbrook, they're good buddies. They
Speaker 1: go to Houston, they didn't get along, and I think
Speaker 1: part of it was Westbrook is like, bro, I know
Speaker 1: you were out last night, but you can't bring that
Speaker 1: last game for the Clippers. I mean, Harden might as
Speaker 1: well have been a hologram. I mean, he was invisible.
Speaker 1: But I watched Westbrook and I think, all these years later,
Speaker 1: what I appreciate about him is he plays so hard.
Speaker 1: He almost forces you as a teammate to play harder
Speaker 1: because you and I know this, some nights, this is
Speaker 1: asking a lot eighty two games playoffs. I mean, Yokich
Speaker 1: last night just doesn't have it. And I was like
Speaker 1: kind of blown away by Westbrook last night and this
Speaker 1: new found ability to hit a three, but it's his
Speaker 1: energy was just ridiculous last night in the first half.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's infectious.
Speaker 5: It. I'm so glad you said it like that because
Speaker 5: I've always felt that way in team basketball, Like when
Speaker 5: there is somebody on your team that is busting his
Speaker 5: ass on defense, you look like an idiot if you're
Speaker 5: out there next to him not doing the same thing.
Speaker 5: It screams on film, and like, trust me, like these
Speaker 5: film sessions, like I remember when I was in college,
Speaker 5: Like it's embarrassing when you're sitting in the room and
Speaker 5: you're not doing your job, like and the coaches pausing
Speaker 5: the screen and like you're jogging back in transition defense
Speaker 5: and he's standing up there pointing at you in front
Speaker 5: of your teammates.
Speaker 1: Like it.
Speaker 5: Laziness stands out on the TV, it stands out in film.
Speaker 5: It especially stands out juxtaposed with an energy bunny and
Speaker 5: like that there's a ton of.
Speaker 3: Value there, you know.
Speaker 5: I've like really grown to appreciate Russell Westbrook in this
Speaker 5: phase of his career in a way that I didn't
Speaker 5: in the past. Yep, a couple different things. He is
Speaker 5: a guy that his motor and physicality actually translates in
Speaker 5: the postseason really well because he's a very physical player.
Speaker 5: So like and we've seen so many examples of this
Speaker 5: in NBA history, the big, strong athlete who plays hard
Speaker 5: just has a lot of utility when it's a rock fight,
Speaker 5: when it's like super super physical. During the regular season
Speaker 5: with the Lakers, there was just so much time where
Speaker 5: he was asked to do more than he was capable of.
Speaker 3: But as this has shifted towards.
Speaker 5: Him being in a smaller role, he's polished up his
Speaker 5: jump shooting, like you mentioned earlier, like he put in
Speaker 5: work behind the scenes. He understood, oh, if I'm going
Speaker 5: to stay in this league, I'm going to need to
Speaker 5: be able to hit a corner three. And so he's
Speaker 5: put in a lot of work behind the scenes. The
Speaker 5: second piece of it finding a fit that works. So,
Speaker 5: for instance, Jokics, we've talked about this on the show before,
Speaker 5: inverts your spacing. He brings the center away from the basket.
Speaker 5: That makes it so there's fewer redwoods around the basket.
Speaker 5: And so Russ is Russ had a layup missing problem
Speaker 5: over the years, and he's missing fewer layups in Denver
Speaker 5: because he's getting easier cuts right around the rim. And
Speaker 5: so when you combine the little bit of corner three
Speaker 5: point shooting, the ability to finish because of the lack
Speaker 5: of congestion under the rim with the Yolkic team, and
Speaker 5: then you add to it just the way his physicality
Speaker 5: translates to the playoffs. He's become a very useful player
Speaker 5: for the Nuggets now, like a flat out important player. Yes,
Speaker 5: championship goals.
Speaker 3: No question.
Speaker 1: And I know this isn't the be all end all,
Speaker 1: but there is something about when you turn a television
Speaker 1: on and you come into the second quarter, the players
Speaker 1: that add something you can usually spot in like two possessions,
Speaker 1: Like you're like, oh, you like amen. Thompson's a great example.
Speaker 1: You're like, shit, man, that dude is physical. He's an
Speaker 1: intimidating presence. Obviously, great scores almost all have that. Russell
Speaker 1: Westbrook jumps to the TV screen. He is just straight
Speaker 1: gin on the rocks. It's like pow, it hits you.
Speaker 1: It's who's this guy? Like cutting? And Jimmy Butler's got
Speaker 1: that too when he's really into it. So it's like, dude,
Speaker 1: who is like he? When you're a pro athlete and
Speaker 1: can kind of intimidate other pro athletes and a man's
Speaker 1: got it, Butler's got it, Russell's got it. No, And
Speaker 1: you know, it's funny watching Westbrook. I'm thinking, could he
Speaker 1: have always shot threes like this? He's now shooting him
Speaker 1: because he's probably a little less, you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: everybody comes down a little bit athletically, and he was
Speaker 1: so hyper athletic.
Speaker 3: But it is.
Speaker 1: Amazing to me to watch him shoot threes. I don't
Speaker 1: know if his the shooting style has changed, but last
Speaker 1: night I'm like, it looked smooth, it looked confident and comfortable.
Speaker 1: The Mavericks shouldn't have traded Luca. But and Zack Lowe
Speaker 1: was talking about this with on the Ringer is that
Speaker 1: I would never trade Mahomes, Alan Lamar Jackson, but I
Speaker 1: would now take a call on Joe Burrow because of
Speaker 1: two major injuries. I would take a call. I'm not
Speaker 1: looking to trade him. I would take a call on
Speaker 1: Jalen Hurts, who I still think small and okay in
Speaker 1: the pocket. But there are players, you know, like Lebron
Speaker 1: in his prime got you guaranteed finals. MJ got you
Speaker 1: guaranteed titles. Kareem got you titles in Lucas prime, he
Speaker 1: guarantees you buckets and those are great, but there is
Speaker 1: a difference between the lebron and his prime and I
Speaker 1: think now he'll be in better shape next year. The
Speaker 1: Lakers won the trade. I'm not in any way insinuating
Speaker 1: they didn't crush it, but I think this little peak
Speaker 1: at Luca, Let's face it, when he's on your team,
Speaker 1: you just watch him more. Even if you love the NBA,
Speaker 1: you watch it more. Can you look at him now?
Speaker 1: And you watch as much NBA as anybody, But is
Speaker 1: there a part of you, even ten percent that goes
Speaker 1: I get Houston, I get Dallas and Nico taking the call.
Speaker 5: So just because there is a reason to do something
Speaker 5: doesn't mean it's reason enough. And like I see the
Speaker 5: reason like they call it, I'm I'm I don't. I
Speaker 5: don't want to be overly critical of Luca here, because
Speaker 5: it is tough to come into a team right in
Speaker 5: the middle of the season and to do all of
Speaker 5: the things that he's being asked to do. But let
Speaker 5: me just pose it, like, let me just present it
Speaker 5: like this. If Luca outplays ant, do the Lakers win
Speaker 5: the series? Let me let me give you one more.
Speaker 1: Literally, the last game and it was like six of
Speaker 1: seven against him. So I think that is they don't
Speaker 1: put Luca on ant a Ton because for obvious reasons.
Speaker 1: So I'm not sure what the answer is to that.
Speaker 3: So in the fourth quarter in this series, which is
Speaker 3: where the games have been decided.
Speaker 1: Yes, the guy way, because Minnesota was in these close
Speaker 1: games all year long. They did I mean, so it's
Speaker 1: like that is who they They're not pretty enough offensively
Speaker 1: to blow good teams out there in all all their
Speaker 1: games look like this.
Speaker 5: Luca has five made field and one assist in the
Speaker 5: fourth quarter in the series, and has ten made field
Speaker 5: goals and seven assists in the fourth quarter in the series.
Speaker 5: He has dramatically outpaced Luca's output when the games have
Speaker 5: been on the line late. Luca is shooting five to
Speaker 5: seventeen in the fourth quarter in the series, and he
Speaker 5: looks blatantly exhausted every single time down the stretch of
Speaker 5: these games. There's been so much focus on the fact
Speaker 5: that he had to play twenty four straight minutes. You
Speaker 5: know who else played twenty four straight minutest in that game,
Speaker 5: Anthony Edwards. He looked fantastic. Julius Randall played twenty three
Speaker 5: and a half of the twenty four available minutes. He
Speaker 5: looked fantastic. He's guarding Lebron, grabbing rebounds, doing all that
Speaker 5: kind of stuff. Lebron, who's forty years old, had three
Speaker 5: of the most absurd defensive plays I've seen. Like Lebron
Speaker 5: almost single handedly stole that game with defense. Yeah, stretched de.
Speaker 1: Vincenzo block and then Fitty Smith shot in the only
Speaker 1: over end.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: And then he stripped Nasried on the very next possession,
Speaker 5: got another stop, and then he did strip Anthony Edwards
Speaker 5: on what was kind of an iffy call. It was
Speaker 5: kind of already slipping when he was like, but it
Speaker 5: was good defense on that play. The point being like,
Speaker 5: there were four stars in that game that all played
Speaker 5: basically the entire second half. Three of them looked like
Speaker 5: they were spry. For the record, they're all better athletes.
Speaker 5: I'm not expecting Luca to be out there flying around
Speaker 5: like a six to eight freak athlete in those situations,
Speaker 5: but I would expect him to look like Luca.
Speaker 3: I would expect him to look like Luca.
Speaker 5: And the bottom line is is every single time a
Speaker 5: game has been hanging in the balance in this series late,
Speaker 5: Ant has looked like Ant and Luca hasn't and the
Speaker 5: Wolves have immediately taken control and won the series. So
Speaker 5: I don't think it's negotiable at all at this point
Speaker 5: whether or not Luca's conditioning is standing in the way
Speaker 5: of whether or not they could have won the series.
Speaker 5: The Lakers controlled the first three quarters. They are capable,
Speaker 5: They are capable of beating this team in the biggest Like,
Speaker 5: for instance, I saw some criticism of Lebron for having
Speaker 5: zero points for the record. Lebron does deserve some criticism.
Speaker 5: He had a bad turnover late. I didn't like the
Speaker 5: three he took off the left wing. Zero points like
Speaker 5: five a way to score something. But he only took
Speaker 5: two shots in that fourth quarter. You know why, because
Speaker 5: this team has a construct. The construct is we need
Speaker 5: Luca to create offense for us. That's his one job.
Speaker 5: This is one job everyone else, like Lebron's job on
Speaker 5: this team is to be Draymond Green on the other
Speaker 5: end of the floor, you know. And like, yes, Lebron
Speaker 5: could have and should have done more. But I left
Speaker 5: that game very disappointed because I felt like Luca, when
Speaker 5: the series was hanging in the balance, didn't even look
Speaker 5: remotely like himself. If he makes that layup against nas Reed,
Speaker 5: which by the way, is just maybe a little bit
Speaker 5: more conditioned athlete than he is right now. It doesn't
Speaker 5: even have to be in peak condition, just in good
Speaker 5: enough shape to get the lift to get that ball
Speaker 5: up off the backboard.
Speaker 3: They win. They did, don't win the series. They win
Speaker 3: the game.
Speaker 5: It's two two, but instead he smoked it and then
Speaker 5: didn't get back and transition defense and left nas Red open.
Speaker 5: He hit a three, and all of a suddenly seven
Speaker 5: point game was a two point game, right right, so
Speaker 5: like so, like I I am a huge believer in Luca.
Speaker 5: I genuinely think he could be the best player in
Speaker 5: the league. There's a version of this if he gets
Speaker 5: in shape where he is the best combination of scoring
Speaker 5: and playmaking talent in the NBA after Jokic age is out,
Speaker 5: and if he is and he also gets in good
Speaker 5: shape and becomes just an above average defensive player, that's
Speaker 5: the best basketball player in the world. It's an achievable
Speaker 5: outcome for him. He just has to put in the
Speaker 5: work behind the scenes. And by the way, it's not
Speaker 5: too late. Maybe he can flip the script. But the
Speaker 5: Lakers are not winning tonight and Friday and Sunday unless
Speaker 5: Luka Doncic outplays Anthony Edwards and he he has to
Speaker 5: win that matchup.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I think that's really well put. Is that
Speaker 1: any Listen, It's just years ago, I said, and I
Speaker 1: got so much pushback. I said, he's a better version
Speaker 1: of Carmelo. He's a better version, There's no question. But
Speaker 1: Carmelo is one of the great I mean, one of
Speaker 1: the great offensive talents we've seen in fifteen years. Like
Speaker 1: he was an absolute bucket against every defender in the league.
Speaker 1: And the truth is SOA's Luca. But I say this,
Speaker 1: most great players, at least for about a seven year
Speaker 1: window in their prime, were great defenders. Now you can
Speaker 1: be Bird and Staff where you're trying really hard but
Speaker 1: you're limited. That's also okay in the locker room. But
Speaker 1: mailing it in sends a message, Harden, Luca Mellow. It
Speaker 1: sends a message like you guys, take it from here.
Speaker 1: And you know, a lot of times in the NBA
Speaker 1: you don't face a profound offensive player on the other end.
Speaker 1: But when you and Aunt are matching up and aunts
Speaker 1: this ascending, dynamic player that you can't take your eyes off,
Speaker 1: you notice, like Luca's defense is noticeably awful, and I
Speaker 1: think it was well said by you.
Speaker 2: The volume