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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the drive. I'm Dale Lolly. He is

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Speaker 1: Matt Williamson, and we're pleased to be joined now by

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Speaker 1: Jim Wexel. Of course, covers the Steelers um for a

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Speaker 1: number of what's the what's the name of the it's

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Speaker 1: it's uh city inside? How quickly you forget both you

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Speaker 1: guys used to work there. But you're also the op

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Speaker 1: of on the clock the Pittsburgh Steelers in the NFL draft.

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Speaker 1: UM book's been out for what about six months? Not

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Speaker 1: Jim November? Yeah is that six months? Yeah? Right around there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this was the time though, this is draft time, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And if you you know, want to read some of

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Speaker 1: the stories about some of the great Steeler draft picks

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Speaker 1: over the last well three four decades, I urge you

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Speaker 1: to go check out that book and all the great

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Speaker 1: stories that are in there. Um stuff on Bill nine,

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Speaker 1: stuff on you know, how how they came to the

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Speaker 1: you know, just the idea of how they drafted, figured

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Speaker 1: out who they were going to draft, how they drafted

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Speaker 1: certain guys, certain Hall of Fame guys, the stories behind that.

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Speaker 1: It's a great read. It's an easy read. I think

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Speaker 1: I poured through it about two days. Him Um, just

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Speaker 1: before the draft. Absolutely right. Um. The interesting thing about

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Speaker 1: this year's draft for the Steelers, they haven't had three

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Speaker 1: picks in the top fifty since the late eighties. Well

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Speaker 1: I'm much exactly sure what year that would have been,

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Speaker 1: but I've been I've had late eighties on my mind

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Speaker 1: with this draft. I've been thinking of nineteen eighty seven. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I don't think they had three in

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Speaker 1: the top fifty, but it only seemed that way with

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Speaker 1: the hall they got. And I bring that up because

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Speaker 1: you know, Dick Hayy passed recently and that was his

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Speaker 1: first draft in charge. I don't know how deep you

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Speaker 1: want to go into this, but you know he had

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Speaker 1: he had the title Director of Player Personnel since since

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Speaker 1: he joined, like in seventy one, but that was just

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Speaker 1: the title Art Rooney Jr. Was in charge, and they

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Speaker 1: gave him that title because Blessed though scouts couldn't make

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Speaker 1: lateral moves, they had an agreement with Blessto, so they

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Speaker 1: gave Dick Haley that that title. But actually he wasn't

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Speaker 1: the director of Personnel until eighty seven, which was one

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Speaker 1: of the most underrated and best drafts in Steeler's history,

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Speaker 1: and the reason I think of that not only because

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Speaker 1: Dick just passed recently, but I'm building a second I was, yes,

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Speaker 1: I would not have a problem with drafting three second

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Speaker 1: defensive backs in the first flour rounds, especially one of them,

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Speaker 1: Rob Woodson. I think some people my age remember that, Hey,

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Speaker 1: that was Woodson, Hall Everett, But looking at that draft,

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize that that was also Nickerson, Lloyd and

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Speaker 1: our buddy Merril Hodge. I mean, that's a heck of

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Speaker 1: a draft. And yeah, the other guys, there are other

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Speaker 1: guys that just played a year or two that were

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Speaker 1: I mean Tim Johnson was an effective d lineman and

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Speaker 1: and Charles Lockett was he played for a wide receiver

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Speaker 1: I don't know, five years. So there are some lesser lights. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know they went into that draft. They wanted

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Speaker 1: Shane Colin. They stopped scouting Woodson because he ran in

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Speaker 1: the four twos and low four threes at the combine

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Speaker 1: and so Chuck Nopol Tony dungeees don't even go to

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Speaker 1: his pro day. We got no chance. They had him

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Speaker 1: ranked numb before on the board. And they wanted Shan

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Speaker 1: Colin because they wanted a linebacker, and uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: Shane Colin went eight, and then Jerome Brown nigh and

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Speaker 1: holy crap, Mike Junkin was was in believed he was

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Speaker 1: the fourth pick. And Kelly Stoffer was in Arizona as

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Speaker 1: the uh No. He was in Saint Louis. He's the

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Speaker 1: one that had the franchise moved. That was the last

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Speaker 1: year they were Louis. The Browns and the Cardinals have

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Speaker 1: been screwing up the draft for years. I mean, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think they're back in the draft again.

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Speaker 1: So you know, maybe Elwood's in type can fall to

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Speaker 1: seventeen um. But the other thing they you know, they

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Speaker 1: get in the second round, they want another six foot

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Speaker 1: two hundred and five pound corners that they drafted Belton

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Speaker 1: Dalton third round. They took Locket fourth round. They wanted

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Speaker 1: Donnie Graham. They wanted another Penn State linebacker because they

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Speaker 1: had Robin Cole was a band aid inside uh next

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Speaker 1: to little Robin Cole was an outside linebacker. He's getting old.

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Speaker 1: They moved him inside in their three fourth and they

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Speaker 1: wanted to replace him, and Jane Colin got picked. They

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Speaker 1: had to settle for Rob Woodson and then Donnie Graham

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Speaker 1: gets picked in the fourth round, and so they they

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Speaker 1: took Thomas Everett m a safety who was the first

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Speaker 1: Jim Thorp Awards winner, in the sixth in the fifth round.

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Speaker 1: They still need a linebacker, said, they get Harry Nickerson.

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Speaker 1: He only plays for sixteen years. Yeah to two hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty five games, you know, not all of them

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Speaker 1: with the Steelers, but right hit two hundred and fourteen

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Speaker 1: tackles one year. So you know, you did all this

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Speaker 1: research for the book, did did did you really get

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Speaker 1: an appreciation for the randomness of the draft? You know,

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Speaker 1: like even now we're going mock draft after mock draft,

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Speaker 1: and it only takes one domino to you know, to

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Speaker 1: fall sideways instead of knocking the ones out in front

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Speaker 1: of it. You end up with Rock Woodson or Ben

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Speaker 1: Roethlisberger or you know, I mean, there's so much randomness

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Speaker 1: no matter how much work and studying you do. Well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so in the order and when the Browns are involved

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Speaker 1: in picking kellerlow in front of you exactly. But what's

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Speaker 1: also struck me about the randomness is more in your area,

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Speaker 1: Matt scouting, you know, there is no there is no

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Speaker 1: common template. You know, you could say, well, they go

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Speaker 1: for athleticism that combine numbers mean a lot well, not really. Well,

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Speaker 1: they go by instinct and college production that means a lot, well,

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Speaker 1: not all the time, because there really is no template.

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Speaker 1: I was thinking of um um like like James Harrison,

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Speaker 1: guys like that. I was. I was talking about this

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Speaker 1: on Steel City Insider podcast yesterday with Ivan Pace. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what you guys think of Ivan Pasty and

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Speaker 1: the five ten inside linebackers from Cincinnati. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: I think he's pretty good, but he's five he's five ten, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like a magician as a tackler, you know. And

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Speaker 1: then you look at trent and Simpson, who runs I

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Speaker 1: think he runs a four four I think I think

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Speaker 1: Omar and the front office they saw Tom macdonner having

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Speaker 1: dinner with another four four running hit linebacker with no instincts,

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Speaker 1: and they said, let's get two or three in free agency.

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Speaker 1: We used to stop this guy. Boy, he gives us

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Speaker 1: another Devin Boys, so you know, you know, so we're

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Speaker 1: talking about you know, Trenton Simpson has all the measurements.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if he has the instincts. I talked

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Speaker 1: to him with the combine dale. I think you were

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Speaker 1: there with me too, and he said, my favorite thing

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Speaker 1: is being the shadow of a quarterback, but the spy

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Speaker 1: on a quarterback. And I thought that's an odd thing.

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Speaker 1: Jack Campbell wouldn't be saying that. I like reading my

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Speaker 1: keys and snipping out the run and killing somebody in

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Speaker 1: the hole. And Simpson wants to be a spy and

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Speaker 1: run sideline to sideline, and I thought, oh, another running

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Speaker 1: hit guy here we come. And but Ivan paced piece

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Speaker 1: that classic instinctive insidebackard. It's going to get drafted in

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Speaker 1: the fifth, sixth round. That's the kind of guy. Hey,

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Speaker 1: he might not pan out either, but that that's that's

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Speaker 1: my point. But less of an investment though, if your

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Speaker 1: fifth or six round or it doesn't pan, that's a

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Speaker 1: good special team or you can live with that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean to go back to that, to go back

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Speaker 1: to that eighty seven draft. You get Greg Lloyd in

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Speaker 1: the sixth round. Okay, you know, I'm your size edge guy,

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Speaker 1: you know, Okay, we can deal with that now. And

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Speaker 1: he turns into something, and then he turns into something

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Speaker 1: James Harrison undrafted. If he turns into something, it's gravy.

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Speaker 1: But if you if you draft one of those guys

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Speaker 1: in the first round, then you miss on him. Everybody's

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Speaker 1: complaining about Devin Bush, that's the well or Jarvis Jones,

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Speaker 1: you know he ran up four nine two. Oh no,

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Speaker 1: the production in the SEC matters. Well, it didn't, right.

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Speaker 1: I think that goes to my point where the randomness

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Speaker 1: it's I got appreciation for that. There is all I studied,

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Speaker 1: go back to nineteen thirty six, whenever it started with Shakespeare.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I studied it all and I still have

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Speaker 1: no answers. That's the beauty of this draft. Jim Matt

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Speaker 1: and I just went over our We do a little

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Speaker 1: thing every year on the show where we went wherever

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Speaker 1: the Steelers are picking at whatever number in the first round,

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Speaker 1: we pick that number of guys who we would take

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Speaker 1: at that pick. And so we did seventeen guys this year.

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Speaker 1: Obviously we didn't put the quarterbacks on the list. We

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Speaker 1: didn't put you know, Bijean Robinson on the list because

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Speaker 1: they're not taking that guy. Left the tight ends off

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Speaker 1: our list because we don't think they're taking a tight

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Speaker 1: end in the first round. And it really came down

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Speaker 1: to there were about eight guys there who we thought

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Speaker 1: might be available at seventeen. I'm just wondering what what

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Speaker 1: What's you're leaning towards here at this point. I think

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Speaker 1: it has to be a corner, because you know, a

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Speaker 1: defensive line, there's other positions. They need a third tackle,

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Speaker 1: they need a third outside linebacker. And Mike Tomlin actually

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Speaker 1: went to Ames, Iowa. And if that doesn't, if that

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Speaker 1: doesn't raise your antena, nothing will with these trips. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'll say this. When he was talking at the at

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Speaker 1: the Owners meetings two weeks ago, and this isn't the

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Speaker 1: first time that he's mentioned this, but both times that

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Speaker 1: he talked at the owners meeting. At the Owners Meetings,

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Speaker 1: he mentioned, I know you guys are tracking where I

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Speaker 1: go and I like to throw up some smoke screens.

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Speaker 1: I think he's being very cognizant of that this year.

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Speaker 1: After last year they everybody in the country knew the

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Speaker 1: Steelers were taking a quarterback. Everybody. I think that I

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Speaker 1: think this year they're zigging now when everybody else thinks

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Speaker 1: that they're you know, they're zagging. And I think some

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Speaker 1: of the stuff that they're doing this year is more

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Speaker 1: smoke screenish than anything. See. I think what he said

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Speaker 1: at the at the Owners meeting was a smoke screen

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Speaker 1: for his smoke screens back too. Yeah, but everybody knew

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Speaker 1: they were gonna draft the quarterback and they didn't get

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Speaker 1: They got the best one. Everybody knew they were gonna

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Speaker 1: take Nagie Harris, and they got Nagie Harris, Markith Puncy,

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Speaker 1: you know, going down the list, Georgie Jones. Everybody knew

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Speaker 1: they were gonna get him, and everybody, all the rest

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Speaker 1: of the team said, go ahead. Kevin Boish, I know

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Speaker 1: they trade it up, but I don't know. I think

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Speaker 1: he might be thrown up a smoke screen to explain

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Speaker 1: why he went to Ames to throw people off and

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Speaker 1: make people think that was a smoke stree. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you go to Ames, Iowa for a smoke

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Speaker 1: screen now, I think that you know, he had been

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Speaker 1: in Iowa the day before, and so you know, look,

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Speaker 1: I'm we're already in Iowa. Let's just go there tonight.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna meet with whoever. I don't even know who

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Speaker 1: they had dinner with, and you know at Iowa State. Um,

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Speaker 1: but you just do it just because well, Will McDonald's

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Speaker 1: the obvious guy, the obvious guy. But they've got some

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Speaker 1: other guys too. I mean, you know they do, right,

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Speaker 1: But I don't know that you go to Iowa when

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Speaker 1: Jack Campbell is the only guy who's second even third round,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean Will McDonald, I think, is

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Speaker 1: the only first round er. Well, I always got a

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Speaker 1: pass rusher two, they're back up, They've got the tight end.

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Speaker 1: It's out there. They've got a couple of defensive backs

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Speaker 1: that you know that I like as well. I mean

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Speaker 1: that that Iowa defense was ridiculous last year. I know.

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Speaker 1: But I looked at Van Nest. Somebody said what do

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Speaker 1: you think to him? And I watched tape and I said,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but I can't stop thinking about Jeremy Stott. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how he fits, but I don't love.

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Speaker 1: But So to answer, all things being equal, do you

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Speaker 1: think corners their biggest need though? Well, I think they

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Speaker 1: want to get somebody under Peterson's wing. Yeah, it's a

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Speaker 1: perfect chance. And also then you can move Peterson inside

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Speaker 1: to play a little nickel, play a little safety movement

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Speaker 1: around like that? Is this only matter of time Plotse

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Speaker 1: and Neil get hurt. So I think I putting putting

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Speaker 1: a rookie first rounder as your outside guy on sub packages.

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Speaker 1: It's just perfect for him to break in and also

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Speaker 1: to learn from Peterson and even Minka, so that it's

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Speaker 1: such a deep crop. I know, you know, I'd hate

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Speaker 1: to say take Mozzi Smith at seventeen. He two isn't

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Speaker 1: impressing me. But the rest of the defensive tackle crop

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Speaker 1: is so unimpressive too, and they do need a nose tackle,

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Speaker 1: so I'd hate to take that at seventeen. But man,

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Speaker 1: you might end up doing that because there's so many corners.

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Speaker 1: You could take a corner at thirty two. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's intriguing. There's a lot of pieces of the I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'd be perfectly happy taking Julius Brents at thirty two

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Speaker 1: or even forty nine. And Matt and I are both

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Speaker 1: fans of Brian Brussee. I think he's the clear number

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Speaker 1: two defensive tackle in this draft, and I don't know

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Speaker 1: who I honestly number three I don't think is close

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Speaker 1: for what would fit the Steelers. Yeah, I couldn't consider

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Speaker 1: Massie Smith at seventeen. Maybe I know, but you're gonna

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Speaker 1: need a nose tackle and I don't know that Persee is.

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Speaker 1: I do like Persee suddenness there's some suddenness there. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you want to get back into the

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Speaker 1: mental health issues after just dealing with one. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know how that young man's doing with the death

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Speaker 1: of his sister. I don't know if you want to

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Speaker 1: go there again every I mean, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: compassion and understanding, but do you want to go there

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Speaker 1: again with that? I just look at you don't have

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Speaker 1: a lot. There's there's no doubt, there's no doubt there's

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Speaker 1: some sort of stuff there. But I just think, you know,

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Speaker 1: he fits their profile of what they you know, what

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Speaker 1: they you know, six five, three hundred pounder that can

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Speaker 1: run um. You know, it was a highly recruited guy.

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Speaker 1: But they do need a nose tackle. I mean he

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Speaker 1: did play something. I don't know if they want a

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Speaker 1: true nose tackle though anymore. Jim No, but I think

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Speaker 1: Bozzy unless it's Mazzy, but I think it's Mazzi. Mazy

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Speaker 1: can can play three tech. I believe in uh in

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Speaker 1: sub packages, so he gives you a little nose and

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Speaker 1: that whereas for spe is more UH pretty much five

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Speaker 1: tech or three four tech. So yeah, yeah, I know,

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Speaker 1: and Mazzi has that Feldman freaklift stuff. He's so athletic,

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Speaker 1: and you want to put him under Cam Hayward's wing.

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Speaker 1: There could be a real disruptive man. I just I

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Speaker 1: just look at him. Where was the production? I think

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Speaker 1: he had five tackles for a loss his entire in

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Speaker 1: his entire career four years, he had five tackles for

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Speaker 1: a loss. Well, I think five of the big ten

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Speaker 1: centers have been in for a visit, haven't. Well, that's

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Speaker 1: I mean, I get that. Let's talk. Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: that for a second. Jim. I think that is the

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Speaker 1: interior offensive line guys that they've been bringing in. Screams, screams,

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Speaker 1: smoke screen. To me, they've signed four. They've signed four

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Speaker 1: interior offensive linemen in the last two seasons in free agency.

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Speaker 1: I don't see any way possible that they're taking an

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Speaker 1: interior offensive lineman in this draft. I agree, I agree,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know that it's a smoke scream. As

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Speaker 1: much as these guys are really good, and you know

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Speaker 1: this is a this organizations has a legacy at that

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Speaker 1: position at center, Ah, I know they're just so good.

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Speaker 1: I agree with you, Dale, I don't see them drafting

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Speaker 1: and I keep trying to tell people on Twitter and

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Speaker 1: our message boards, I can't see it. As much as

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Speaker 1: I love John Michael Smith and the guy from Wisconsin.

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Speaker 1: I even I really liked the Ohio state a guy

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Speaker 1: after he pushed the Wisconsin guy they Betton after he

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Speaker 1: pushed Betton all over the field. You know, you turn

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Speaker 1: tape on for these defensive tackles. You see another big

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Speaker 1: ten center. I ask, you know, give on the list too.

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Speaker 1: I get it, I get it, but I just you know,

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Speaker 1: the hot rumor out there now is they're going to

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Speaker 1: trade James Daniels and draft one of these guys. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: why would they trade you only you save five million

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Speaker 1: dollars by getting by trading James Daniels, Why would you?

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Speaker 1: Why would you spend the money last year and then

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Speaker 1: go back and eye We don't want to do We

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Speaker 1: don't want to deal with that guy anymore. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just I don't I don't understand that. Well. I

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Speaker 1: thought it was a great strategy this year, and the

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Speaker 1: draft allows them to fulfill the strategy of get the

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Speaker 1: cheap UH positions in free agency the interior lineman right,

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Speaker 1: and get your get your expensive free agents the ones

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Speaker 1: you just can't afford. Ever, you can't get a good

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Speaker 1: free agent cornerback or offensive tackle, you draft those positions.

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Speaker 1: So that's what I'm looking at, corner and offensive tackle.

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Speaker 1: It's an economic plan as much as fits the on

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Speaker 1: the field plan, the talent plan. So yeah, why draft

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Speaker 1: in interior linement even though even though you know any

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Speaker 1: of these guys could be the next great Steelers center,

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Speaker 1: even at a villa guard, I just got a Rodney

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Speaker 1: Hudson vibe from him. He just looks like a great

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Speaker 1: guard center to me. So unfortunately, and same with tight ends,

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Speaker 1: such a rich crop. But no, you know, Matt and

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Speaker 1: I maybe not so much on the interior line, Jim,

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Speaker 1: but Matt and I've talked a lot about this, Like,

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Speaker 1: so it's a tight end position because it's so deep

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Speaker 1: this year and a lot of teams only want one

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Speaker 1: or two of them on their roster. You may get

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Speaker 1: a guy as an undrafted free agent who you know,

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Speaker 1: last year would have been drafted in the fifth round, yeah,

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Speaker 1: or a fifth round third, you know exactly, I know,

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Speaker 1: I know. So that's that's something to look forward to. Um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so defensive tackle, UM and offensive tackle, and

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Speaker 1: you know they still until they signed Budgey Pree. They

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Speaker 1: need a number three outside linebacker, Yeah, they do, they

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Speaker 1: do well. Maybe maybe this draft will add another chapter.

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Speaker 1: You have to you have to do a little adendum

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Speaker 1: to your book on the Clock Pittsburgh Steelers Behind the

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Speaker 1: scenes with the Pittsburgh Steelers at the NFL Draft again

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Speaker 1: if you if you haven't checked that one out, you

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Speaker 1: have to do so. Uh the eighty seven draft that

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Speaker 1: we talked about is this there's a chapter in there

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Speaker 1: on that and everything that they did that year and

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Speaker 1: how they ended up with Rod Woodson is good stuff. Um.

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Speaker 1: But our guests has been Jim Wexel, the author of

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Speaker 1: that book, and you can check out his work. How

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Speaker 1: can I forget Jim Steelers Digest it's twenty four to seven,

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Speaker 1: all that good stuff that you do on on those

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Speaker 1: and of course uh um, you know you can always

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Speaker 1: check out Jim's podcast as well, those all the things

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Speaker 1: that he does. Like everybody, we're everywhere. Um, but Jim,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna let you go here. We're gonna take a break.

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Speaker 1: Preciate your time here. Look to people know where can

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Speaker 1: they get the book if they want to want to

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Speaker 1: check that out, Well, you can get on Amazon and

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Speaker 1: get better shipping race, but Jim Wexel dot com and

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Speaker 1: you can get to pull them all a biography at

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Speaker 1: half price too, that's my favorite. But the on the

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Speaker 1: Clock book and I autographed those at Jim Wexel dot com.

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Speaker 1: So'm I was fun talking. I mean, I don't know

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Speaker 1: that we provided any clarity on this year track. It

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Speaker 1: was fun chopping it up with you guys. I appreciate

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Speaker 1: you having me on. Always a pleasure, Jim, and we'll

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Speaker 1: see you soon. Here is Matt Williamson. I am Danilali.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to the drive here on Steelers Nation Radio.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back with more right after this