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Speaker 1: Ah Beat Force. If it doesn't work, you're just not

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Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to Software a Gradio Special Operations,

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Speaker 1: Military News and straight Talk with the guys and the

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Speaker 1: community Software Radio on Time. On Target we have Michael

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Speaker 1: Ames and Studio, the co author of American Cipher, Boberg

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Speaker 1: Doll and The US Tragedy in Afghanistan which is co

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Speaker 1: written with Matt Farewell. Out and now this show is

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Speaker 1: brought to you by air Drop. Air Drop is a

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Speaker 1: new section on crate Club where you can find a

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Speaker 1: but other items like that Gerber multi tool, those are gone.

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Speaker 1: So it's up on its own section on crate Club

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Speaker 1: love on air Drop with that excellent response to the

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Speaker 1: last episode with Bob Bear. Really enjoyed doing that one.

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Speaker 1: We covered so much ground, So you've got to go

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Speaker 1: back and listen to that one if you haven't already.

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Speaker 1: But it's getting a ton of plays, a lot of attention,

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Speaker 1: and as I said in studio, this episode, we have

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Speaker 1: Michael Ames once again, the co author of American Cipher

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Speaker 1: bo Burg Doll and the US Tragedy in Afghanistan, And

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Speaker 1: we've had on some of the guys who served with

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Speaker 1: bou Bourg Doll, um like we've had on Matt beer

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Speaker 1: Camp before. And I think it's interesting to revisit this

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Speaker 1: with this book that just came out a couple of

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Speaker 1: months back, because I think even initially on from what

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Speaker 1: we knew and spoke about, there's just a lot of

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Speaker 1: misinformation that has now been kind of shot down and

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Speaker 1: we have a better idea of why bou Burg Doll

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Speaker 1: was released and what went on. So I'm excited to

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Speaker 1: get into this. Yeah, I I when he was first released,

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Speaker 1: you know, I interviewed a few people from his platoon.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you interviewed a lot of people, um, And

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Speaker 1: I mean, just like my curse, re look at how

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Speaker 1: all that went down. It's like, this is bizarre, such

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Speaker 1: a weird story. Um. So, I'm glad you wrote this book,

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Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, thanks, It's uh, it was many years

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Speaker 1: in the making. Farwell and I both had personal connections

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Speaker 1: to it. Um seemed like the story chose us as

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Speaker 1: much as we chose it. Yeah, how did that happen?

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Speaker 1: How did you get involved in this? Well? So, I

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Speaker 1: was living and working in Bergdal's hometown of Haley, Idaho,

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Speaker 1: as a local journalist when he was captured. His father, Bob,

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Speaker 1: was my ups driver, and I was the editor of

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Speaker 1: the Sun Valley magazine at the time. Haley's about twelve

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Speaker 1: miles south of sun Valley Steve Resort Town. Um, and

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Speaker 1: I moved out of Sun Valley. He was still in

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Speaker 1: captivity at the time, but when he was released, obviously

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Speaker 1: this turned into a major firestorm. And I had done

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Speaker 1: some reporting already, I had, I had. I was actually

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Speaker 1: working for a l news as a political reporter freelancer

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Speaker 1: when Bob Bergdal gave an unannounced speech at a Republican

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Speaker 1: fundraiser in Idaho in two thousand ten, and um, I

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Speaker 1: had that material and I started reporting on it, and

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Speaker 1: I ended up reporting on it for several outlets and magazines,

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Speaker 1: and then teamed up with Farwell who had worked on

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Speaker 1: it for Rolling Stone, with Michael Hastings. So in two

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Speaker 1: thousand twelve they did kind of the first deep dive

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Speaker 1: on burg Gal and then three years later, shortly about

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Speaker 1: six months after he was released, I did the next

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Speaker 1: deep dive story on it for Newsweek. So we each

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Speaker 1: had this we kind of book ended the thing from

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Speaker 1: a journalistic standpoint, and then we teamed up makes sense

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Speaker 1: combined forces. Yeah, and that's how the book came about.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, boks are pretty extensive. The obviously the

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Speaker 1: amount of working guys did on it. I think we

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Speaker 1: have someone in the neighborhood of between eight hundred and

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Speaker 1: nine notes. So yeah, it's how many interviews do you

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Speaker 1: think you did together? Dozens? Probably over a hundred, I

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Speaker 1: mean between the two of us, definitely in in the hundreds.

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Speaker 1: We I mean I spoke to dozens of people in

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Speaker 1: Idaho who grew up with him. Um, we spoke to

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Speaker 1: dozens of people in the army who knew him or

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Speaker 1: were involved in the searches in some way, and then

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Speaker 1: we just kept going up the chain until you know,

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Speaker 1: the nine months before the book was done, I was

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Speaker 1: in d C meeting with Chuck Hadrol, talked to Admiral

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Speaker 1: Michael Mullen on the phone, went to every leader hearing

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Speaker 1: at Fort Bragg, so we we had this thing covered.

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Speaker 1: Did you buy any chance to talk to the guys

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Speaker 1: we did? Uh? Cody Full and Matt were can't because

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Speaker 1: they've been on with us, you know. Uh. Cody Full

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Speaker 1: never responded to uh my outreach. Um, but I talked

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Speaker 1: to a lot of other guys in the platoon and

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Speaker 1: and even more in Blackfoot Company. But in the platoon

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Speaker 1: we talked to Gerald Sutton, Joseph co Evan, Buto, Josh Corne,

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Speaker 1: Ellison just in second platoon in Blackfoot Company, talked to

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Speaker 1: a lot more guys who were involved, I mean a

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Speaker 1: whole bunch. And then the kind of breakthrough source for

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Speaker 1: me with the news Week reporting was a guy named

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Speaker 1: Sergeant Johnny Rice, who was in third platoon, Blackfoot Company,

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Speaker 1: who was the one who he was a big source

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Speaker 1: for me at the start when I was um because

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Speaker 1: he kind of picked up on what was going on

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Speaker 1: pretty quick when they were having them go on these

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Speaker 1: wild deuce chases for Burgdal after he had as he said,

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Speaker 1: come and sense dictates he's no longer even here. Why

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Speaker 1: are they sending us to go look for a guy

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Speaker 1: when it's pretty clear he's over the border in Pakistan.

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Speaker 1: So once I met Johnny Rice, that was that. That

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Speaker 1: was a major breakthrough. And he's been a source and

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Speaker 1: you know, um, a big help all along. Well, since

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Speaker 1: this story is so convoluted, the waters have been muddied

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Speaker 1: so much, U, if it's okay with you, start kind

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Speaker 1: of at the beginning, like bow Burg Doll came out

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Speaker 1: of your hometown, Like, who who was this guy? How

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Speaker 1: did he end up in the military? Yeah, well, I

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Speaker 1: I grew up on the East Coast, but I moved

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Speaker 1: to his hometown right after college basically as a ski

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Speaker 1: bumb I was a glorified ski bumb I was working

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Speaker 1: as a reporter at the local paper and teaching skiing,

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Speaker 1: waiting tables, that whole thing. Um Boberg Doll was known

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Speaker 1: as an eccentric kid, but there was it was a

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Speaker 1: pretty eccentric town. So he wasn't that far off the

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Speaker 1: mark in that town. But he rode his bike everywhere,

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Speaker 1: I mean everywhere, forty fifty miles in a day. Wasn't

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Speaker 1: weird for him. He was super fit. He knew a

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Speaker 1: lot about weapons and guns. He worked at the gun club,

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Speaker 1: but he was eccentric. He also was in the ballet,

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Speaker 1: the local ballet, and he took it really, really seriously.

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Speaker 1: And so he was trying to find his way in life.

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Speaker 1: And he had these oddyssey years where he was saving

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Speaker 1: saving up cash, doing odd jobs in the valley and

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Speaker 1: then traveling around the world trying to find his purpose.

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Speaker 1: He went to as some of the stuff you may

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Speaker 1: have heard, or it's all in the book. Of course,

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Speaker 1: he joined the French Foreign Legion. He thought he was

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Speaker 1: going to join the French Foreign Legion. Um. He uh

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Speaker 1: enrolled in the unlisted in the Coast Guard, but he

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Speaker 1: washed out of boot camp three weeks into it with

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Speaker 1: an anxiety breakdown. Um he was and um at one point.

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Speaker 1: He but he never gave up the idea that he

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Speaker 1: was going to be a he was going to be

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Speaker 1: an operator, he was going to be a tier one guy.

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Speaker 1: And to the extent that a a one of the

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Speaker 1: guys who was a big shooter at the gun club

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Speaker 1: and Haley was this guy named John Shaw who we

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Speaker 1: read about in the book. If you ever heard of him.

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Speaker 1: He was an award winning marksman um guy from Memphis,

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Speaker 1: and he opened a shooting academy South and Memphis Mid South. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I've been there, Okay, Yeah, so he also has He

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Speaker 1: opened a kind of a western outpost in Idaho. And

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Speaker 1: he was good friends with Bow's dad because Bo's dad

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Speaker 1: was his ups driver, so they're friends. He he the

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Speaker 1: two families went out to dinner together. They knew each other,

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Speaker 1: you know. John Shaw told me that he met them.

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Speaker 1: Bow's sister at the time when they met, was dating

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Speaker 1: this guy named Michael Albrecht who had grown up in

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Speaker 1: a very religious Christian household, just like Bow, and was

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Speaker 1: going to the Naval Academy because he wanted to be

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Speaker 1: a fighter pilot. Shaw couldn't been more impressed with the

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Speaker 1: whole family. He said, you know, this looks like an

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Speaker 1: all American military oriented family to me. Said to Bob, hey,

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Speaker 1: why don't we hire Bow. He can get out of

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Speaker 1: this valley. The valley can be very claustrophobic. Come down

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Speaker 1: to Mississippi and we'll teach him how it will teach

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Speaker 1: him to be an instructor. So they bring him down

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Speaker 1: there and they start putt him through this orientation where

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Speaker 1: he's not really teaching anybody anything yet. He's just kind

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Speaker 1: of doing maintenance. He's cutting grass, you know, he's greasing

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Speaker 1: the hinges and he's and he's driving the seals who

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Speaker 1: are training there to the casinos down on the Mississippi

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Speaker 1: River and he starts idolizing these guys. He does, I

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Speaker 1: want to be one of them. And he knew he

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Speaker 1: was good enough with guns, and he knew that he

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Speaker 1: knew enough about it to do it. But they saw something.

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Speaker 1: They saw that he was this kind of gentle spirited

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Speaker 1: kid who wouldn't hurt a fly, and he would. He

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Speaker 1: wasn't he wasn't cut out for it in their opinion. Well,

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Speaker 1: he didn't like that, and one day he ups and

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Speaker 1: tells Shaw or his manager down there, that he's going

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Speaker 1: to quit because he's going to France to join the

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Speaker 1: French Foreign Legion. And as you're read in the book,

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Speaker 1: that does not go as planned. He doesn't speak a

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Speaker 1: word of French, he doesn't anticipate having to speak a

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Speaker 1: word of French. And he gets there and they tell

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Speaker 1: him this isn't going to work out, and he returns

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Speaker 1: home his dreams crushed. So he had these years of

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Speaker 1: these of these elaborate dreams that didn't quite that that

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Speaker 1: never really worked out. He went to Alaska to go

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Speaker 1: fishing um At one point he auditioned for certain sol

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Speaker 1: a wow because he was good enough. He was this

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Speaker 1: unbelievably fit guy who lived this sort of like Bruce

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Speaker 1: Lee monastic lifestyle. He slept on a mat every night.

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Speaker 1: He was training himself to do these things. He was

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Speaker 1: very much in his own head, as the guy's in

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Speaker 1: platoon probably told you. And he was the real deal

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Speaker 1: in the sense that he could go out in the

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Speaker 1: back country and he was obsessed with bared grills and

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Speaker 1: obsessed with survivalism, and he actually walked the walk on

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Speaker 1: this stuff. The problem is is that a lot of it,

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Speaker 1: the line between reality and fantasy for him, was very blurred.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like there's some delusions of grangeur well as

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Speaker 1: as a government army psychiatrists later diagnosed him with, and

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Speaker 1: a separate group of army psychiatrists that he has this

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Speaker 1: personality disorder, schizotypal personality disorder. It's a rare disorder. It's

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Speaker 1: sort of a schizophrenial light where you don't have full

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Speaker 1: psychotic breaks but you live in your head, you live

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Speaker 1: in your fantasies, and and and your ability to differentiate

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Speaker 1: between reality uh and your fantasy is is pretty affected.

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Speaker 1: Cody full at one point said, I think it was

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Speaker 1: on Twitter that it always seemed to him like bo

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Speaker 1: is living in a movie in his own head. And

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Speaker 1: that's pretty much. It's that he cast himself in his

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Speaker 1: own film exactly. And so he washes out of the Coastguard.

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Speaker 1: Then so he washes out the Coastguard. He's still looking

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Speaker 1: for for purpose. And there's there's scenes in the book

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Speaker 1: where he goes back to Idaho and he is, you know,

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Speaker 1: he's with this kind of like artistic crew in this

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Speaker 1: coffee tea house that he was that was run by

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Speaker 1: his his friend's mom and Mariel Hemingway would stop by

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Speaker 1: and her daughters who were artists and models from l

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Speaker 1: A And they're all these rich, unique kids who he's

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Speaker 1: trying to fit in with. But meanwhile, he grew up

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Speaker 1: in a strict Christian house. He's a millety, he's military obsessed.

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Speaker 1: He's ordering gear and weapons to the shop and he's

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Speaker 1: hiding them around the shop. Imare so at the time,

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Speaker 1: I worked next door one of my odd jobs at

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Speaker 1: the time. It's working next door at an art gallery

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Speaker 1: and I would go in there and they had these

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Speaker 1: weird weapons that you would find around and why is

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Speaker 1: this WelCom chucks and stuff? They had a giant chaliley.

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Speaker 1: There was this giant, gnarled, freaky looking saliley that they

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Speaker 1: kept under the cash register, and I would say, oh,

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Speaker 1: Bo put it there. Well, who's bow? Bo? Is this

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Speaker 1: incredibly shy blonde kid who would always sit in the

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Speaker 1: background and and and be super reserved. I remember him

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Speaker 1: that way. When he was taken captive and his name

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Speaker 1: got out there, I remembered him as the kids sitting

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Speaker 1: in the background, not really interacting with customers. That's crazy

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Speaker 1: that that you were was a weird flashback thing when

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Speaker 1: his name appeared here, like I've seen this guy. When

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Speaker 1: when his I don't remember exactly when I put two

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Speaker 1: and two together. I mean he was you know, he

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Speaker 1: was captured. He was captured for five years. But um,

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Speaker 1: I knew the people at that coffee shop who we

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Speaker 1: worked for, and I knew some of his friends. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: when I saw his photo, I then remembered him as

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Speaker 1: the kids sitting there. Yeah, I mean he was he

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Speaker 1: was very shy, and Um, there was a brief period

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Speaker 1: of time when I was working next door where like

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Speaker 1: he was, he had like gone goth and and his

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Speaker 1: friends had like painted his nails black and he was

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Speaker 1: like had his hair down in his eyes. But that

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Speaker 1: was a brief moment. Back to your question. Comes back

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Speaker 1: from France and he's working at the tea shop, and

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Speaker 1: in the book you'll you'll see, um, people around him

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Speaker 1: are just impressed because he's so shy, so reserved, but

256
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Speaker 1: he's doing this intense stuff all the time. The dude's

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Speaker 1: super intense, as we were saying, because he's in his head.

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Speaker 1: So he's shoveling and he's building. He built to the

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Speaker 1: extent that he built a lounge, just smokers lounge behind

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Speaker 1: the building out of snow and ice, with a shovel

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Speaker 1: and a hose and with blankets. So he built like

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Speaker 1: sofas and chairs and tunnels. It was a big snow year.

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Speaker 1: He didn't even smoke, but he wanted a place for

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Speaker 1: his friends to go hang out. And he was just

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Speaker 1: so committed to it. And and and in the book,

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Speaker 1: we interview people from that chapter of his life who said,

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Speaker 1: I've never seen someone takes something as you know, like

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Speaker 1: as fanciful an idea as let's have a smoker's lounge

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Speaker 1: in the back, and take it so seriously that he's

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Speaker 1: spent days shoveling and carving ice to make it real.

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Speaker 1: And then how did he come to the army, So

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Speaker 1: he doesn't know what he's gonna do, right, He the

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Speaker 1: Coast Guard was a major failure for him. He he

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Speaker 1: washes out in this in this emotional anxiety breakdown which

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Speaker 1: we detail in the book. We because he just can't

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Speaker 1: adapt to the lifestyle exactly. The whole thing, just just

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Speaker 1: the reality versus what his perceptions and his hopes are

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Speaker 1: going to be are just completely irreconcilable. That's most of

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Speaker 1: us when we joined the Mark, right. It's part of

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Speaker 1: how they break you in, right. But it's a big institution.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're you're just another cog in the wheel.

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Speaker 1: You're not you're not a hero, you're not a ninja.

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Speaker 1: You know, here's another guy. You're not an individual, right,

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Speaker 1: And he was overwhelmed by the reality of the situation

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Speaker 1: that he had to save lives, even though it's what

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Speaker 1: he intended to do, even though it's why he joined

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Speaker 1: when he heard it and was put in that position

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Speaker 1: up close, and coast Guard boot camp sounds pretty intense.

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Speaker 1: And they're waking you up every hour in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the night, and they're putting you through stressful situations.

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Speaker 1: And after three weeks of this, he has a total

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Speaker 1: breakdown and at roll call one night, he's not there,

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Speaker 1: and his cohen lists. They find him in the bathroom

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Speaker 1: with a nosebleed and broken mirror and blood all over

295
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Speaker 1: the walls, and yeah, yeah, and it was clear he

296
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Speaker 1: didn't belong there, and the coast Guard made it very

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Speaker 1: clear that he didn't belong there in the paperwork to

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Speaker 1: discharge him with it in his separation paperwork, and they said,

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Speaker 1: if if beau Berg Doll wants to rejoin the military

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Speaker 1: and anyway to perform, he needs a waiver, he needs

301
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Speaker 1: psychological counseling, and he uh and and and otherwise he

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Speaker 1: will not be allowed to enlist. And then he shows

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Speaker 1: up at an army recruiter station. Well, then he goes home,

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Speaker 1: he builds the snow and ice caves, and he starts

305
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Speaker 1: looking for the next purpose in life, and that includes

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Speaker 1: he his parents. So he was raised in this very

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Speaker 1: religious household shouldn't leave this out. We have rewind a

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Speaker 1: little bit here. He was homeschooled and raised by these

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Speaker 1: really I mean good salt of the earth people as

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Speaker 1: Jim Mannus called them, but pretty intense religious environment. Um uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, his sister was fine coming up through it,

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Speaker 1: but he wasn't. And that that that that that happens

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Speaker 1: in families as well. And he uh was looking for

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Speaker 1: other things to do. And when one opportunity that came

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Speaker 1: up was to go to Uganda to teach self well

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Speaker 1: to to to be part of a seminary group in

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Speaker 1: Uganda at one of these villages and they were having

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Speaker 1: issues with the Joseph Coney Army, and both says, well,

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Speaker 1: I can go there and teach them self defense because

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Speaker 1: I'm a self defense expert. So he tries to go

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Speaker 1: to Uganda, but there's no spots left in the seminary.

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Speaker 1: Then he comes home again, Well, he already was home.

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Speaker 1: Then he he um decides well, I'm going to audition

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Speaker 1: for cirk to soul because he was doing ballet and

325
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Speaker 1: he was super fit, and he sees what people do

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Speaker 1: there and he was amazed what people could do with

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Speaker 1: their bodies. Um. This actually didn't make it into the book,

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Speaker 1: so I get it to you guys here exclusively because

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Speaker 1: one of the people I was friends with in town

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Speaker 1: was one of his um dance or yoga instructors who

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Speaker 1: was helping him fine tune his body. Bear in mind,

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Speaker 1: this guy didn't drink, He ate incredibly healthy, he slept

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Speaker 1: on a mat. He was a pretty fine tuned athlete.

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Speaker 1: So he decided to go Serk to sol A. He auditions,

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00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,920
Speaker 1: but then he tells her, well, you know, I decided, Um,

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Speaker 1: I decided not to do it, and she said, well

337
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Speaker 1: why not? And he said, you know, I've heard Sark

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00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,120
Speaker 1: to sol A doesn't treat their employees that well and

339
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,439
Speaker 1: if people did hurt and they don't do much about it.

340
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Speaker 1: And that's the last year heard of it. In days later,

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Speaker 1: he he rides a dirt bike to Twin Falls to

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Speaker 1: an enlistment shop and I mean to a recruiting office

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Speaker 1: and listen the army. It's interesting because everything about his

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Speaker 1: background that you're saying seems like he really is not

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00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,720
Speaker 1: an ideal candidate for the military. Although it's as you said,

346
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Speaker 1: he has the physical strength and all that he looks

347
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Speaker 1: at himself obviously is much more of an individual than

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00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,360
Speaker 1: you know, a member of a unit. Yeah, I mean,

349
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,040
Speaker 1: but I'm I'm not military, so you guys don't know

350
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,359
Speaker 1: better than men neither am I How common is that?

351
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,119
Speaker 1: I mean in the Army, I was having this conversation

352
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Speaker 1: with a friend of mine last night actually, um, I

353
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:43,840
Speaker 1: picked him up from the airport. Is that, you know,

354
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,399
Speaker 1: in the Army and being in an infantry platoon, it

355
00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,280
Speaker 1: is very much a team environment. It's about the unit.

356
00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,320
Speaker 1: It's not about you as an individual. And if you

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Speaker 1: show up there and you think you're some kind of hero,

358
00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:55,880
Speaker 1: you think you're some kind of badass, you get put

359
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,000
Speaker 1: in your place really quickly because you were just one

360
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Speaker 1: part of the machine, you know, and everyone has to

361
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,880
Speaker 1: work together to make it out of there alive, right

362
00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 1: I think he? I mean, it is absolutely legitimate to

363
00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,640
Speaker 1: say that that his case raises questions and flags and

364
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,600
Speaker 1: holds lessons for how the military does mental health screening.

365
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,919
Speaker 1: That said, he was a very unique case that slipped

366
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,520
Speaker 1: through the cracks. He kept his head down, he didn't

367
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,359
Speaker 1: let people, he didn't let a lot of people in

368
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,399
Speaker 1: on and he wasn't like a troublemaker. Know, he was

369
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Speaker 1: a good soldier. Who was one of the fittest guys

370
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,879
Speaker 1: in the platoon. According to everyone we talked to. They

371
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 1: might not want to admit it, but he was one

372
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 1: of the fittest dudes there. And he UM. He memorized

373
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,800
Speaker 1: the handbooks, he was always cleaning weapons. He knew what

374
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,080
Speaker 1: to do with the gear, he knew what to do,

375
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,399
Speaker 1: he knew the right things to do. The problem is

376
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Speaker 1: what was going on in his head. And you know,

377
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:52,159
Speaker 1: to to to ferret someone out like that is tough. Um.

378
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,239
Speaker 1: But by the time he was an Afghanistan, he had

379
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,720
Speaker 1: already showed people enough clues that he was perhaps on

380
00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,800
Speaker 1: a different wavelength than there were issues, and he had

381
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Speaker 1: been flagged as a mental health issue. Who flagged him

382
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 1: and when was that? Well? The official the most official

383
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 1: flagging we heard was Um, which which was brought up

384
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:14,240
Speaker 1: in the legal hearings, was in Afghanistan by his first sergeant,

385
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,000
Speaker 1: who or by a sergeant in his platoon who brought

386
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 1: it up to first sergeant to say, hey, this guy

387
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 1: is having some issues. Maybe he should talk to a

388
00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,640
Speaker 1: to a stress counselor UM. And the first sergeant said,

389
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,480
Speaker 1: I don't want to hear about it. You know your

390
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 1: opinion doesn't matter, um. But that was the that's the

391
00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 1: most documented case. But I've also talked to other people

392
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,520
Speaker 1: who were in Alaska with him and thought that he

393
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,760
Speaker 1: was off from the start. So I think it it

394
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,359
Speaker 1: comes down to how close people were paying attention. But

395
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,040
Speaker 1: the whole reason he got through just back again because

396
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,760
Speaker 1: we kind of lost over this. He wouldn't have been

397
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,359
Speaker 1: he would have been turned away at that recruiting station.

398
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 1: He should have been turned away at that recruiting station.

399
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,600
Speaker 1: The Coast Guard had done its job and and and

400
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 1: had done the proper paperwork that said he should not

401
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,359
Speaker 1: be recruited, he should not be allowed to enlist. But

402
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,400
Speaker 1: this was in the summer of two thousand eight. This

403
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:10,320
Speaker 1: was as uh uh we They knew that the surge

404
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 1: was coming for Afghanistan. The problem they needed bodies. The

405
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,080
Speaker 1: problem was everybody was in Iraq, so they needed to

406
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,480
Speaker 1: lower and listening standards. And in the book, Matt Farwell

407
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 1: does some great reporting on this. Um. You know, he

408
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,120
Speaker 1: knew it from working in the army for years. They

409
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,439
Speaker 1: lowered enlistening standards significantly now and often that meant taking

410
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 1: guys with you know, with felony records and with other

411
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,720
Speaker 1: rap sheets and a variety of issues. But it also

412
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,439
Speaker 1: meant taking guys like bo burg Ball, who the Coast

413
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 1: Guard had done its job said he shouldn't be in

414
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,400
Speaker 1: the army, and then the Army takes them. Anyway. When

415
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 1: I was talking to people and his platoon in Afghanistan,

416
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,360
Speaker 1: I mean, they just described him as just the weirdest

417
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:50,360
Speaker 1: cat ever. Um that he was like trying to learn Pashto,

418
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 1: which was not, you know, in of itself bad, but

419
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 1: he was you know, off by himself most of the time.

420
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 1: Writing in his diary was one of the things I

421
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 1: was told. He was just not somebody who was like

422
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,640
Speaker 1: socialized within the platoon. Um. And then we get into

423
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 1: things where from what I was told, he was like

424
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,720
Speaker 1: he'd like ask his squad leader, like what would happen

425
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,440
Speaker 1: if a gun went missing? You know, stuff like this

426
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 1: that like in retrospect like, oh my god, well he did.

427
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,439
Speaker 1: I mean, you talked to the guys who weren't his friends.

428
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 1: He also had friends. Uh, there were certainly more people

429
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 1: who were not his friend. They were ultimately hundreds of

430
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 1: thousands of people who did not want to be his friends.

431
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 1: As one of our sources say, the army is an

432
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 1: is an organism, and the army rejected Boberg Dolls an

433
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 1: alien object in the organism. Um. He did have a

434
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,159
Speaker 1: couple of good friends in the platoon though, who we

435
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 1: interviewed extensively for the book. Namely their names are Joseph

436
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 1: co and Gerald Sutton. Both great guys, both had their

437
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 1: own commonalities with Bo so um. Bo grew up home schooled,

438
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 1: no TV, eight miles out of canyon in a very

439
00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 1: isolated environment with very religious parents. Joe Code grew up

440
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 1: as the son of mission as a missionary in Venezuela

441
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 1: in a jungle missionary camp, hours from the nearest town.

442
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 1: So they bonded over there over their commonalities. Gerald Sutton

443
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 1: was a super smart guy, went on later to get

444
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: his full Bright scholarship, very bookish. He really looked up

445
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 1: to Bow's ability to remember everything in the books, and

446
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 1: he looked up to Bow as a physical specimen because

447
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 1: the dude was fit. The dude did did appear to

448
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,880
Speaker 1: be a badass soldier when you just looked at him.

449
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if you've seen him physically

450
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 1: in person, but he's got this perfect posture. He's he's real,

451
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 1: broad shouldered, square, John he looks like a soldier. There's

452
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 1: another reason why I think he slipped through the cracks.

453
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 1: He had to. He had the look. He had the look,

454
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 1: but as soon as you started talking to him, Yeah,

455
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 1: he's a weird cat because he's living with an undiagnosed

456
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: disorder that has him unable to really differentiate between fantasy

457
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: and reality. It doesn't mean he's not smart. He's super smart,

458
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,959
Speaker 1: but he didn't have a formal education. He was homeschooled,

459
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 1: and he didn't know he was He was naive and

460
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: idealistic to a degree that other people growing up in

461
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: most places in this country can simply not relate to.

462
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 1: He was it. And I think this is um a

463
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: really fascinating point. When you talk about how I got

464
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 1: involved in this in the first place, well, why I

465
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 1: started going down the deeper investigations. The day he was released,

466
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: remember the video of him getting on the helicopter. My

467
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 1: first thought after seeing him, after all my dad, he's alive,

468
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 1: was wow, that looks just like Kroy Canyon where he

469
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 1: grew up. So the Afghan Pakistani border, the altitude, the climate,

470
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: the topography, the humidity, the vegetation. It looks like where

471
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: he grew up in Idaho, and he would go out

472
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: in Idaho on these days long solo trips in the

473
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: back country. He would just to get away, just to

474
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: be away from home, or just to practice his survivalism skills.

475
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: So when he's there as a soldier, he immediately sees

476
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: a place that looks pretty familiar to what he knows

477
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: growing up. So this concept that he comes up with,

478
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: which is is based on legitimate analysis what's going on

479
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: around him, but also a delusional idea that he should

480
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 1: even consider this. But of going from one base to

481
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 1: another in the middle of the night eighteen miles, but

482
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 1: that eighteen miles through backcountry, there's the same distance from

483
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: his parents house to town where he used to go

484
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 1: all the time. So what sounds to other people like, oh,

485
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: it can't be true, it's impossible, No one want to

486
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: do that. Well, he used to do that on his

487
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: own anyway. And at some point years later, his parents

488
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 1: were visited by a you know, o g A who

489
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 1: comes knocking down the door and he says, I've just

490
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 1: come back from the border region, the Durand Line, and

491
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 1: I can't believe how much your backyard looks like it.

492
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: They're the hinter lands inter lands of Idaho. Yeah, I mean,

493
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: and and we've got photos um from the family in

494
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: the book, and we saw lots of photos of him

495
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: as a kid in the background tree. And you know,

496
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: for kids who grew up in the east coast of

497
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 1: the Midwest, where there's a mall and you know, a

498
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: couple of miles away, it's hard to imagine what it's

499
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 1: like going over. Yeah. Well, I mean it goes back

500
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: to that rule versus urban clash in America that we've

501
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 1: talked so much about in the last couple of years.

502
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: You know, there's a big cultural divide in this country. Absolutely.

503
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: And look, it's also worth saying what he did in

504
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: this act, which I'm sure everyone listening at this point

505
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: knows what he did. It's it's indefensible, it's stupid, it's knuckleheaded,

506
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,360
Speaker 1: to say the least. But he's not a trader, right, right.

507
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: He didn't join the Taliban, he didn't sympathize, he wasn't

508
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: trying to defect. He wasn't trying to defect. He wasn't

509
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: even trying to desert. And that was the whole issue

510
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 1: of of that was somewhat surprising when he played guilty

511
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: because it came down to a definition of desertion. He

512
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: was trying to do this stupid stunt that he admits

513
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: was a stupid stunt to go to another base to

514
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 1: get the attention of a general and to look like

515
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: a hero, to look like a badass who has this

516
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 1: incredible war story. Um and, and that is indefensible and

517
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 1: he should be punished for it. But he goes on

518
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: to to five years in brutal isolation and captivity, um

519
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: and and he man's up and he does that captivity,

520
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 1: He spent over three years in a cage, and then

521
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 1: he comes home to find out that he's been crucified.

522
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 1: And the impact of that I think cannot be overstated

523
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: when people are out there, I'm sorry, go ahead, no,

524
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: I'm I was just gonna say, I guess just to

525
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: back up a little bit. And the book gets more

526
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 1: into this in details, so people do need to pick

527
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: up the book. But what exactly, I still want to

528
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: get some more background on this. What exactly was the

529
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: act that he wanted to do. Where you say he

530
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: wanted to go to another base and have this war story,

531
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: it's just confusing. I think it's confusing to the listeners

532
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 1: of what he was trying to accomplish exactly right. So

533
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: he was a late deployer. He didn't deploy with the

534
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: rest of his platoon because he got an infectionist foot.

535
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: We into much more detail in the reporting on how

536
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 1: this all happened. But he gets over there late, and

537
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: he is immediately struck when he gets to FOB Sharona

538
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: by the luxuries and the perks of life on an

539
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: American forward operating base. He can't believe that there's real

540
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: flush toilets, that there's spring mattresses. He hasn't even slept

541
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: on a spring mattress at this point for like eight

542
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: years in cows To Province. In the Christmas of two

543
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 1: thousand four, two thousand five, on FOB Salerno, we had

544
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: ice sculptures in the chow hall on Christmas Eve. I

545
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: have a friend who worked, as you know, who worked

546
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: in the industry, and traveled over there and came back

547
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: with photos and showed us all on Idaho walking around

548
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: the fob with the burger kings and the pizza huts,

549
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: and we civilians were stunned. We couldn't believe it. So

550
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: here's burg Doll thinking he's going over to being in

551
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: a trench, you know, or or or sleeping sleeping out

552
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: in the rain, and he's watching guys playing video games,

553
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: eating burger king, and he's absolutely just floored. And it

554
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: just immediately starts screwing his head, screwing with his head,

555
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: and screwing with his expectations. Another part of of what

556
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: his mental reality was is he had spent three years

557
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: training for what this was going to be his great

558
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: war story, and he gets over there and sees these

559
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: things that he finds morally offensive. Right, Guys breaking the rules,

560
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: guys you know, um talking about women in ways that

561
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: he found offensive. It was just one thing after another

562
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: that of just normal military culture that in his idealistic

563
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: way was unacceptable, and that started to build up and

564
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: build up to a point that well, that also is

565
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: is then built upon by the illogical and uh, the

566
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: army logic of things that happened. Right now, I was

567
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: an Afghanistan, but I've talked to enough people who were

568
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: to learn that this was not uncommon for people for

569
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: enlisted guys to think that leadership was making stupid orders

570
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: and stupid to say Asians. So when when their leadership

571
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: tells him to build a base on a cemetery, which

572
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: you can read about in detail in the book. He

573
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: is just floored. And when his battalion commander at one

574
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: point comes in and kicks over a grave in front

575
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: of a bunch of Afghans, he's deeply appalled and offended

576
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: by this, and he comes to the conclusion and this

577
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: is so, I think that's a fair analysis for him

578
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: to be appalled. Sure that uh, that that an American

579
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: lieutenant colonel would kick over a grave stone. However, that

580
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: starts to mix with delusional concepts that that same lieutenant

581
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: commander is hates their platoons so much and they were

582
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: a problem platoon, they were a misfit platoon that he

583
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: was going to send that Bow becomes convinced he's going

584
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: to send them on a suicide mission to get rid

585
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: of them. That was delusional, and so he organizes in

586
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: his in this this grandiose plot, that he's gonna go

587
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: for a midnight run from one fob to the other.

588
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: And in his mind, what's that going to accomplish. He's

589
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: going to be Jason Bourne. He goes and buys a disguise,

590
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: he gets cash. He's going to bribe anyone who runs

591
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: into along the way, he's going to be a a

592
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: a hero like from the movies and the books that

593
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: he's read, and he what it will accomplish is he

594
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: will make himself a legend and he will force them

595
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: to pay attention to him and listen to his critiques.

596
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: He's only been there for five weeks, so he was

597
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: a private first class, So he already is way out

598
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: of his death to think that he's going to get

599
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: an interview with a general because he has issues with

600
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: his with his how his chane of command are making orders,

601
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: and then what midway he was stopped so not yeah,

602
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: so he gets all those things together. He asks one

603
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: of his um He asked Shane Cross if he can

604
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: take a gun with him. They tell him if he

605
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: takes a gun, his buddy will get in trouble for

606
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: the missing gun. So he decides not to take a

607
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: gun with him on this adventure because it would be

608
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: breaking the rules. So you can see how fragmented and

609
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: contradictory his thought patterns are. So he goes out there

610
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 1: after midnight. He's, um, it's it's we go into detail.

611
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: Based on his um in depth testimony about this to

612
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: the army, Um, I don't need to go into all

613
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: the detail here, it's all in the book. But he

614
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: he realizes he's in over his head. He puts on

615
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: his disguise at sunrise and he just keeps walking, and

616
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: sometime before noon, six Taliban motorcycles show up and roll

617
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: him up. And interestingly, he did get America to pay

618
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: attention to him for about two minutes. And then I

619
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: feel like we all just forgot about him for years. Well,

620
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: I mean, it's funny you say that. What four days

621
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: after after President Trump just tweeted about him again? We

622
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: we he was he was famous for a brief moment

623
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: because he was useful. He is he is case. As

624
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: soon as he was rolled up and smuggled out of there,

625
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: he became useful to a variety of different entities and

626
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: people at a variety of different times who all exploited

627
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: him to the greatest degree possible. That includes the US

628
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: political and entertainment system. So after the exchange, he became

629
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: very useful because that was just a few months before

630
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: the two thousand fourteen mid terms. Um, and you have

631
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: Donald Trump at the time in June two thousand fourteen

632
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: being the first person in public should call him a trader.

633
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: Despite having no evidence for that, zero evidence for that whatsoever.

634
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: The the perhaps the juiciest irony of the whole thing

635
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: is that the best UH analysis of those rumors of

636
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: burg Doll as a trader, where does that come from?

637
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: Taliban propaganda? Organized Taliban propaganda while he was captive of

638
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: Taliban operatives setting up interviews, as you'll read in the book,

639
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: with Western journalists telling them that burg Doll had converted

640
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: to Islam, was teaching bomb making seminars to Taliban fighters,

641
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: just totally over the top stuff that got picked up

642
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: and disseminated in the Western press. And then you have

643
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: Donald Trump out there a few years later, just recycling

644
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: Taliban propaganda for them. But just to push back on

645
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: that a little bit, though, I think some people feel

646
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 1: just him walking off base and going a wall in

647
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: itself is an active treason. Yeah, I mean legally that's

648
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 1: not true. It's it's not treason is to go a wall.

649
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 1: It's not even treason as to desert as as Jack noted,

650
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: he was not defecting. He did commit a crime. It's indefensible,

651
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: it's stupid. He himself admitted it and ultimately pled guilty.

652
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: Maybe you could get him on something like sedition. But

653
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: even then I don't know, well, they couldn't even get

654
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 1: them on the full charge of misbehavior for the enemy.

655
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: I mean, the way the guilty plea came in and

656
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: what it was a pretty narrow tailor guilty plea. The

657
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: fact that that he had deserted for those twenty four

658
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: hours before he was rolled up. And another thing I

659
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: wanted to bring up with you, um, because there's a

660
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 1: lot of heartburn in the special operations community and even

661
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: in infantry units and about bird Doll and the casualties

662
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: the kia s and w I as that these units

663
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: took trying to find bird Doll or get him back.

664
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,720
Speaker 1: And there's something true to that, but at a certain

665
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: point it stops being true because Jay Sock and other

666
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: entities were using Bou bird Dolls an excuse to get

667
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: the green light for their operations. So you'd submit the

668
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: concept of the operations the CONOP and if you said

669
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: it was something about finding Bou bird Doll is much

670
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: likely to much more likely to get approved than if

671
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: it wasn't. So, I mean, there's some legitimacy to this,

672
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: this anger towards bird Doll, but at a certain point

673
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: it just gets completely ridiculous. I think it's totally understandable

674
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: people be angry at him, but I'm really happy to

675
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,720
Speaker 1: hear you talk about the pretext here on this show.

676
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: I I first reported that in news week in and

677
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: ended up being a major part of our book American

678
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: Cipher Um It it just to rewind it. Let's go

679
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: from from the most salacious uh charges backwards the most

680
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,399
Speaker 1: extreme charges that he's responsible for soldiers dying. And there

681
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 1: are five or six dependently report names listed on those. Well,

682
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: all of those ki has happened in late August and September.

683
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,720
Speaker 1: By late August and September, the army itself had already

684
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 1: come to the conclusion that he was in Pakistan. So

685
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: the the idea. But but where it gets where it

686
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: gets tricky, And what I really want people to understand

687
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 1: is that two things can be true at once. It

688
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: can be true and it is true that these guys

689
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: were sent on missions to go look for bou Burg

690
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 1: Doll and that they believed that that's what they were doing,

691
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 1: and they did it without question, and they did their jobs,

692
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: and they have a right to be piste off about that.

693
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: But it is also true that their leadership did know

694
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: that bou burg Doll was no longer there and that

695
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: they were using him as a pretext to do other

696
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 1: things and to go stir up the Talban hornets nest.

697
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: And this came out in legal heres. Lieutenant Colonel Baker

698
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: admitted in illegal hearing in San Antonio that they had

699
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: more that they they that that that period of time

700
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 1: was in a more effective um campaign in in in

701
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 1: stirring up and finding and rooting out Taliban than at

702
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: any other point while he was there. So these two

703
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: things to be true at once. To to rewind further

704
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: to the to the special Operations community, and namely Jimmy Hatch,

705
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,359
Speaker 1: it can be true that Jimmy Hatch thought that he

706
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: was on a mission that was called and ordered to

707
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: go find and rescue bou burg Doll. I believe that

708
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,240
Speaker 1: he believed that. But I also know that that mission

709
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: had been planned previously and that and that rescuing bo

710
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: burg Doll was not the primary objective, and that no

711
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: one told Jimmy Hatch that. So so to the I've

712
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: been reporting this for years, and what stuns me is

713
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: that no one at the top of the chain of

714
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,439
Speaker 1: command who was responsible for burying this information about where

715
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: he was and using it as a pretext to send

716
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 1: guys out and do these things. Has admitted it, and

717
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: it brings up all sorts of ethical considerations about, you know,

718
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: lying to your troops and sending them out on one

719
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,399
Speaker 1: mission when really it's about something else, um that you're

720
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,760
Speaker 1: sending I mean, when you're lying on a on a conop.

721
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: And this came up when the with the soldiers who

722
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: were ambushed in Niger. There are a lot of issues

723
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: about was the information on the conop correct, was the

724
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: information on the risk mitigation sheet correct? Or was it fabricated?

725
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: And now what you're talking about is that commanders were

726
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: sending up false reports to hire saying that this operation

727
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: is about bou Berg Doll when really everyone knew damn

728
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 1: well that it wasn't well. And I don't know how

729
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 1: far up the chain we can say people knew damn

730
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: well it wasn't but we do know that at the

731
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: very top there was plenty of information, overwhelming information that

732
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 1: was available to General Gentleman Crystal, General Flynn, Mike Furlong,

733
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: General Reader UH and civilian leadership that new overwhelming evidence.

734
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: Depending on the date where he was or where he

735
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 1: was headed at what what time? Okay, by July. By

736
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 1: the middle of July, when the first video of him

737
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: comes out, the U S Intelligence agencies all come to

738
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 1: the conclusion that he's in Pakistan. Meanwhile, they just keep

739
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: these raids going. Even further back um July three fourth,

740
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 1: just days after he's gone missing, there are credible reports

741
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 1: that Mike Furlong, who was working for General Flynn at

742
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: the time, gets that shows where burg Doll is and

743
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: how how they had been misled and how they were

744
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 1: chasing them. For a long was with the d i

745
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: A at the time. Mike for long is is an

746
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 1: interesting shape character who I hope readers will get into

747
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: when they when they did into this book. Mike Furlong

748
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: was a civilian intelligence UM executive who was had been

749
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: hired by McKiernan and then kept on by Flynn, and

750
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 1: him and Flynn were having their first meeting on the

751
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: day burg Doll goes missing. So all of this stuff

752
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,280
Speaker 1: that he's speculated on, or shouldn't say you speculated on before,

753
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: but people speculated that we were discussing before of him

754
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 1: teach bomb making and all this stuff obviously not true.

755
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 1: But what what did the Talban do with him while

756
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:10,280
Speaker 1: he was, you know, captured by them? Um? Well they

757
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,919
Speaker 1: so it was five years right, and it's broken down

758
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: into different phases. But he was he was smuggled over

759
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: the border within two or three days. We know that

760
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 1: we can prove that by comparing and and cross referencing

761
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: his testimony to the Army, the Army's own investigations, Furlong's

762
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: interviews with us. It's it's all in the book. Um

763
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: but but the Taliban took him over the border. Uh

764
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: intentionally led US teams on into alert and bated ambushes

765
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,800
Speaker 1: with with with false reports that they had them. Um

766
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: but they for the he he he escaped twice in

767
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: the first couple of days. He runs away. They then

768
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 1: chained him to a bed for three months, spread evil

769
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: towards ring him, beating him, cutting him with razors. That

770
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: goes on for three months. Today, what do they want

771
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: to get out of this? I mean, he doesn't have

772
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 1: any information that they could really use. Right. He was

773
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 1: captured nine or ten days after David Road escaped. David

774
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: Rhode was a New York Times editor and reporter who

775
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: was the highest value Taliban hostage at that time in

776
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: early two thousand nine David Road Escapes, which you can

777
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 1: read about in David Rhodes book. Um. It's a pretty

778
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: amazing story in itself. And then they get bo burged

779
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 1: on all of a sudden they have an even more

780
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: valuable prisoner. Now this isn't just an important civilian, this

781
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: is a U. S. Military. Did you uncover any information

782
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 1: writing this book about UM legitimate, legitimate planned rescue operations

783
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: where you know, sort of like the ben Laden raid

784
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 1: could have done across border UM hostage rescue mission and

785
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,439
Speaker 1: was anything like that even close to being launched. It

786
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: was planned, but never close to being launched. But it's

787
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: interesting you bring up in the Laden because as the

788
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,720
Speaker 1: plans to get burg doll so uh as as readers

789
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: will find out in the book, UM, the the you

790
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: know Jaysaw community was was tasked with drawing up legitimate

791
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: rescue operations. Those were never ordered, those were never taken

792
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 1: off the shelf, but they were drawn up and there

793
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: was a high mission and there was there was a

794
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 1: high and a low option, and the low option was

795
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 1: two teams to helicopters over the border stealth operation. It

796
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 1: was never ordered until two years later when it was

797
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 1: taken off the shelf and adapted as Operation Neptune Spear.

798
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: Oh really, so the preliminary planning was for to get

799
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: bird Goll back, the planning that went into the bin

800
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: laden raid. The blueprints, as we were told by two

801
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 1: different sources, were were adapted from blueprints drawn up to

802
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: get burg Doll back. That's really interesting. I've never heard

803
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: that before. It's there's uh there, there's a lot of

804
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: good nuggets in this Yeah, there's. It's it's it's been

805
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 1: a challenge telling people just you know, one or two

806
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 1: things in this book, because honestly, the higher narrative of

807
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 1: burg Doll is so misconstrued and it's so frustrating and

808
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 1: kind of surreal to be a reporter on case like

809
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 1: this where you're looking at all these facts and then

810
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: you look on social media and you watch TV and

811
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:15,359
Speaker 1: the average person who who who is informed by our

812
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 1: media right now has a version of truth that simply

813
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: isn't based in reality. It strikes me and maybe I'm

814
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: completely off based, and you can weigh in on it.

815
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: That the actual the way we actually got bird Doll back,

816
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: if anything, the thing I can think of that it

817
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: bears the most resemblance to maybe is the Bettencourt operation

818
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: down in Colombia where Jay Sock was involved in the

819
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: periphery of it, but it wasn't a real hostage rescue mission.

820
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: You know, there's some sort of quid pro quo. Uh.

821
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: Is that with the with the contractors who are kept

822
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: for five of Dinah Corps guys. Yeah, yeah, Well there's

823
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 1: a lot of overlap with those guys because those guys

824
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: were also brought back to the same rehab facility in

825
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,800
Speaker 1: San Antonio that burg Doll worked through and and interviewed

826
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,919
Speaker 1: by same debriefers that bird Doll was interested by. Yeah,

827
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: I mean bird Doll comes home and this is another Uh.

828
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 1: This is probably one of the more stark moments of

829
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 1: narratives versus you know, popular narratives versus reality is when

830
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 1: he comes back to San Antonio. When he comes back

831
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: is when everyone hears his name here in early two

832
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: thousand in June, and the media just blows up with

833
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: this story, right. So uh that was shortly after the

834
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,839
Speaker 1: Rose Garden debacle with his parents were invited out and

835
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: spontaneously invited to speak, even that the dad had the

836
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 1: zz top beard and his wife was like wearing a headscarf.

837
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: No head scarf, am I not remembering that right? No?

838
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: The zazy top Beard, yes, and I think it's more

839
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 1: accurate called his easy top beer than the Taliban beard.

840
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 1: The guys. It raised questions at the time like what's

841
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: going on? Absolutely, and it didn't look right, and and

842
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: and sources for the book, uh, you know, at cabinet

843
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 1: level sources told us why they thought that was inappropriate

844
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: and White House uh aids admit that that it was

845
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 1: not a good idea, um, but it was just it

846
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 1: was it was. It couldn't have been more perfect for

847
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 1: what had already been planned as a political operation. So

848
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: so he's back and he has immediately looked at as

849
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: an incredible gold mine of intelligence and information. When they

850
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,280
Speaker 1: start realizing that here's a kid who has for five

851
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: years been cataloging his memories who, yes, he fucked up,

852
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 1: and now he wants to do something to help, he

853
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 1: wants to make up for it. He's he's, he's he's

854
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: cataloging these memories about about who's holding him, where they're

855
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: holding him, and they start debriefing him and he starts

856
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 1: just giving up incredible amounts of information that within a

857
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 1: couple of weeks is turned into over a dozen classified reports,

858
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 1: and then the CIA ends a nine month drone ceasefire

859
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 1: and starts hitting all these targets. This has never been reported.

860
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: It's reported in the book. People need to read the book.

861
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 1: The CIA had a nine month drone cease fire that

862
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 1: ends two weeks after bird Doll gets back and miraculously

863
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:09,439
Speaker 1: starts taking out Hakani targets in western Pakistan. Bird Doll

864
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 1: getting his revenge well, and bird Doll got awards. He

865
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 1: was awarded twice for his for his behavior and conduct

866
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,399
Speaker 1: in captivity, in large part because he turned into such

867
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: a gold mine. To use the words of his Pentagon debriefers. Now,

868
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: while he's doing that on TV, Richard Grinnell goes on

869
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 1: TV the day he's returned, and it's the first person

870
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 1: to say in public that bird Doll was going to

871
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: look for the Taliban, as you said, to defect. Richard

872
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: Grennell was a political operative so shady and unscrupulous that

873
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: Roger Stone told me in my reporting he considered Richard

874
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 1: Grenell too shady to work with. Where's Richard Grenelle? Now?

875
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: Where is he? He's the ambassador to Germany? Holy sh it,

876
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: He's Trump's Ambassador Germany. He's a Republican operative, he's a

877
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 1: loyal follower, he's a loyal water carrier, he's he's good

878
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: at what he does. He's a knife fighter. And now

879
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 1: he's the he's the Ambassador Germany. He also arranged with

880
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 1: his assistant Brad Chase, those guys originally to go to

881
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: come up here to New York and to do their

882
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 1: interviews and to talk about burg Doll in ways that

883
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 1: some of them felt were twisted and turned into a spectacle.

884
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 1: As Gerald Sutton told us, it's it's so crazy when

885
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: you hear of some of these people who work in

886
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: the administration that we don't you know, because I was

887
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: unaware of that, be of that. And it's like last

888
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 1: episode we had Bob Baron and talked about how Erik

889
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 1: Prince's sisters in the administration. There's a lot of strange

890
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: characters in this administration. The and and and a lot

891
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 1: of them have done helpful things to for Trump and

892
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 1: for the Republican Party at moments that were important. Look

893
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: the burg Doll smear campaign, which took a guy who

894
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 1: did something I want to repeat indefensible. I am not

895
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 1: here defending bow burg Doll but in a lot of ways,

896
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 1: it's about the institution exploiting somebody who at the end

897
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 1: of the day is mentally ill and using him in

898
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,879
Speaker 1: ways that you know that that aided them and helped them.

899
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: And and when you have Rick Ronald going out there

900
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: and starting that campaign, when you have Donald Trump at

901
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: the time not even running for president, going on Fox

902
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: News and calling him a trader. By the end of

903
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: that month June two thousand fourteen, Obama's approval ratings hit

904
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 1: their lowest point of his entire presence. And then the

905
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: whole narrative was, we traded these guys from Guantanamobey for

906
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 1: for a trader, and people died looking for him. And

907
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: those things are not true. And you don't have to

908
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,280
Speaker 1: call boburg Dolla hero to say those things aren't true.

909
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 1: The point of our book is to is to talk

910
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 1: about the facts of the case, which, as far as

911
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: we're concerned, are more interesting than these ridiculous soap opera

912
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: cartoon narratives that have been propagated by so much of

913
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 1: our media, not just Fox News. Are a lot of networks,

914
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 1: I mean scared to have you guys on because a

915
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: lot of networks are responsible for building up this narrative

916
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 1: that is as you're saying, is hyper herbally or just

917
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,399
Speaker 1: not true. I'd love to talk to Jake Tapper, who

918
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: was one person who was just recycling things he was

919
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 1: hearing from sources at the time. And look, I get it.

920
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 1: As a journalist, you want your you. You you have

921
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: your relationships with your sources and you and you tend

922
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 1: to believe your source. And they're close to d C.

923
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 1: They're getting the leaks out of the Pentagon every day. However,

924
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 1: they were saying things that were completely completely outrageous, like

925
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: that burg Doll was responsible for what happened to cop

926
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 1: keating in October, so that's five months after he goes missing.

927
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: And to say that burg Doll is responsible for that,

928
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 1: for those decisions, which were leadership mistakes, just goes to

929
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: show how much the idea that we can that we

930
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 1: can use burg Doll as a whipping boy for everything

931
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 1: that went wrong in a war that was not winnable.

932
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 1: It just goes, it just goes on and on well,

933
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: and it shows how duplicit is a senior officers are

934
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 1: in the military as well, that they'll try to pawn

935
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 1: it off on some private who did something stupid. Um

936
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: that they'll do almost anything to absolve themselves from military

937
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: failures pretty much. I mean it's too bad there aren't

938
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: more guys like you know, like Bassovich, whose career ended

939
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,959
Speaker 1: when he did take responsibility, right, yeah, I mean even

940
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 1: people like uh like um, General Votel. I mean, I've

941
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 1: seen fall on the sword a few times, you know,

942
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: and say, yes, this is the were my guys, I'm

943
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: responsible for it. You know, we met a lot of

944
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: people with a ton of integrity and listed guys and officers.

945
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: The only officers who refused requests for interviews were McCrystal,

946
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 1: petray Us, and Flynn, who knew who had the information

947
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 1: where burg Doll was when those men were being sent

948
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: out on missions. When people say, well, guys were hurt

949
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: and killed looking for burg Ball, I would like them

950
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 1: to ask McCrystal, petray Us, and Flynn what they knew

951
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 1: when those guys were sent out in those missions. Well,

952
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: there are powerful people who want to lock in the narrative.

953
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 1: Is what you're describing to me sounds very similar to

954
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 1: some of this stuff. When I interviewed remember the movie

955
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 1: Horse Soldiers came out and I interviewed some of those

956
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 1: guys whore on those O d a s who went

957
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 1: in early on in the war, and they very much

958
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 1: had the story that you know, senior officers that colonels

959
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 1: want to control the narrative. They do not want enlisted guys,

960
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 1: they don't want n c O s. They don't want

961
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,399
Speaker 1: junior officers speaking out because it ends up contradicting their

962
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 1: narrative when they go on CNN and make themselves look

963
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: like heroes. Look. And I mentioned Johnny Rice earlier, he

964
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: told me in one of our first interviews. He goes, yes,

965
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: I don't expect civilians to understand it, but I and

966
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:28,720
Speaker 1: I know they were lying to us. But I support

967
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: what they did because it was the right thing to

968
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 1: do at the time. That leadership had a decision to make,

969
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 1: which was either admit that Burgdall was gone in Pakistan

970
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 1: our ally and call off the searches, or use it

971
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 1: as a pretext to do to fight the war. They

972
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: wanted to fight the way they wanted to fight at

973
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:49,279
Speaker 1: a critical moment. That's wild. And I mean, so, I

974
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: mean your book is American Cipher, and I mean that's

975
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: obviously a reference. I think I guess to Birgdall himself

976
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: that he's an enigma. He's an enigma, he's a code

977
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 1: to help us understand the war that I think we

978
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: still as a nation are unable to really explain and

979
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 1: unable to really understand, and that history is going to

980
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,720
Speaker 1: look back on and tell us things that will shock

981
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 1: us twenty years from now, but that we already know

982
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: are already available. The fact that we give so much

983
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 1: money and aid to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, who themselves

984
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 1: are funding and training the Taliban that we are fighting

985
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,319
Speaker 1: Afghanistan is this swamp that pulled us in and just

986
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 1: sunk deeper and deeper in a very Vietnam way. Or

987
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 1: another metaphor I like for Afghanistan is it's the hole

988
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:38,320
Speaker 1: in the center of your record player when everything revolves

989
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,880
Speaker 1: around it and the music just keeps playing, but you

990
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: never get to the center. Because we have created this

991
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: structure for forty years now of funding and training the

992
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 1: people who are fighting against Well, what do we know

993
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: about where Boberg college now? And that's going to ask

994
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 1: the same thing. We don't know much because he's under

995
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: legal advice not to talk, you know, not to speak out,

996
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: and because he is he's a marked man. I mean,

997
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,399
Speaker 1: he came back and and his family and friends all

998
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: received death threats. Obviously, he there's still people out there

999
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 1: who'd like to kill him. I just think what I'd

1000
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 1: like people who who would who would um be inspired

1001
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 1: to to do violence to bo burg Doll to think

1002
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 1: about is the fact that he spent three and a

1003
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 1: half years in a cage, he spent five years in

1004
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: isolated captivity. He manned up and he did that. He

1005
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,240
Speaker 1: screwed up in a big way, but he did his time,

1006
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:30,760
Speaker 1: and he paid his price in that way in ways

1007
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 1: that no pow had since Vietnam. And when he comes home,

1008
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 1: when people call him a trader, and when people say

1009
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 1: he's responsible for these things without evidence, they should think

1010
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 1: about the impact of that on the reality of what

1011
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,439
Speaker 1: he did. And one of the reasons our book has

1012
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 1: so much good sourcing, one of the reasons why we

1013
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,360
Speaker 1: have almost notes is because people in the military and

1014
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,479
Speaker 1: the government who knew the truth were eager to talk

1015
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,800
Speaker 1: to us. People who were close to this case wanted

1016
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,879
Speaker 1: the facts to get out. Military guys who were still

1017
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 1: in officers who who who were risking their own careers,

1018
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: and who are reported in this book under pseudonyms spoke

1019
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 1: out to us because they didn't like the way that

1020
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 1: this story had been politicized. They didn't like the fact

1021
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 1: that that gold Star families had been lied to. So

1022
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 1: is he definitely in the United States? Is he on

1023
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 1: witness protection or anything like that? Um? I think he's

1024
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:28,360
Speaker 1: in the United States. I don't think he's under witness protection. Um.

1025
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: I think he's trying to do with his life. The

1026
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 1: last time he spoke to the media, it was to

1027
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 1: a Hollywood screenwriter before he had a lawyer, and as

1028
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 1: readers will find out in the book, that didn't turn

1029
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:40,359
Speaker 1: out very well for him. Yeah. I would just I'm sorry,

1030
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: I just wonder how he goes around under the same

1031
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: alias of bo bergdahl In in Delhi wife. I would

1032
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 1: think that's a huge obstacle that you would Yeah, I

1033
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 1: would think you legally change your name at that point. Yeah,

1034
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 1: it's a good question that that that I can't answer.

1035
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:59,760
Speaker 1: But um, he uh, you know, he's not particularly recognizable,

1036
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:01,840
Speaker 1: but you write his name, the name, the name alone.

1037
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:04,799
Speaker 1: But you know, he's a loner, and um, I think

1038
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: he wants to just get on with his life. I

1039
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 1: know he wanted to finish his education, and people who

1040
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 1: meet him and people who work with him, as they

1041
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 1: testified in his legal hearing, are left with good impressions.

1042
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 1: He's not he's low drama. You know. One of woman

1043
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:22,839
Speaker 1: who worked with him in Fort Bragg testified in his

1044
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: in his core hearing last year, two years ago that, uh,

1045
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,359
Speaker 1: he he was a source of less drama than most

1046
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:30,759
Speaker 1: of the guys she worked would come back from the

1047
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 1: ward because a lot of guys are damaged. He was

1048
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 1: obviously damaged, but he did his job. He kept his

1049
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: head down. Yeah, I can't imagine the amount of trauma

1050
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: that dude must have been through. I mean, I have

1051
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 1: to imagine that he would have severe psychological issues from

1052
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 1: being in captivity. Not I mean he had no one

1053
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 1: to speak English too for five years, five years. Occasionally

1054
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 1: when they would do the videotapes there'd be someone who

1055
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 1: could speak English. But there's no doubt he was traumatized,

1056
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 1: deeply traumatized and will be with him for life. And

1057
00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:58,799
Speaker 1: people say, well, what difference does that make when you

1058
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 1: look at the injuries, and you looked at the lives destroyed,

1059
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 1: and people looking at him, and that was the tension

1060
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 1: in the sentencing portion of his hearing, it is it's

1061
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:10,920
Speaker 1: like you're holding him accountable for the entire fucking war exactly.

1062
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,240
Speaker 1: And I think that's why the judge made the right decision.

1063
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: But but in the book, people reading the book will

1064
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 1: get towards the end where reporting from the legal hearing

1065
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:27,439
Speaker 1: and about the devastating injuries that were brought up at

1066
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 1: the at his sentencing. H Sergeant um Master Sergeant Mark Allen,

1067
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 1: who was shot in the head on one of the

1068
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 1: missions in the first week. And there is no there

1069
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:40,880
Speaker 1: is no questioning that this man and his wife and

1070
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 1: his family have been put through hell. Uh so, But

1071
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,359
Speaker 1: people were confused, Well, then why wasn't burged All put

1072
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 1: in prison? And it's because you cannot prove a perfect

1073
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 1: causal link between those two things. That mission that Master

1074
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 1: Sergeant Outleas sent on had been planned prior to burged

1075
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,399
Speaker 1: All going missing. They just hadn't sent it out yet.

1076
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,359
Speaker 1: So Burgar goes missing, and now we can send out

1077
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 1: this mission, and we'll send it out with guys who

1078
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:05,919
Speaker 1: aren't prepared and who aren't geared up, and who aren't

1079
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 1: don't have the proper supplies, and are all of those

1080
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 1: decisions bo burg Doll's fault. The defense said no, the

1081
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: prosecution said yes, and readers of the book will find

1082
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: out what happens. So what's the big takeaway for for

1083
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 1: you and your co author Matt Farwell. I mean, did

1084
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 1: you come away from this thinking like I mean, I

1085
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 1: think you alluded to it that there's just a lot

1086
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 1: of stuff in this war that's been glossed over, deliberately buried,

1087
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 1: covered up. US political dysfunction is mind boggling. It It's right,

1088
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 1: it's a it's it's our weakness and our strength that

1089
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: we have a system of checks and balances. But when

1090
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 1: every agency is constantly checking the other one, and the

1091
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 1: warfare that's happening in Washington is more intense than the

1092
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 1: warfare happening to our enemies, we're bogged down under the

1093
00:57:56,560 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 1: weight of our own system. Um, that's my take. This

1094
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 1: this book is about government dysfunction. Political dyfunction. During the

1095
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 1: Obama years, when one could argue the government was actually

1096
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 1: functioning relatively smoothly, you had a lot of career people

1097
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 1: in these positions, and we still couldn't figure it out

1098
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 1: because the divisions within our own system are so deep

1099
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 1: that getting a unifying policy was almost impossible. Man, it's incredible.

1100
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 1: You've got me excited to read the book. Now. Well,

1101
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 1: good there there, There's there's a lot in it for

1102
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:32,440
Speaker 1: people to take home. Um, you know, it's uh, there's

1103
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 1: there's a lot of good to be said for where

1104
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 1: boat comes from. You know. Part of why I'm so

1105
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 1: passionate about this is because I lived in his hometown

1106
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 1: for a long time. I saw people mutual friends who

1107
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 1: were on the receiving end of death threats over period

1108
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:46,920
Speaker 1: of years, and anytime his name would come up on

1109
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 1: Fox News for illegal hearing, another wave of death threats

1110
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 1: called into friends of his in Idaho. And our country

1111
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 1: shouldn't shouldn't have to be put through these sort of seizures,

1112
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: of of of self hatred and of internal strife. Um,

1113
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: just because it's good politics, right when we eat each

1114
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 1: other alive. And that is only getting worse, it's not

1115
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 1: getting better. The media has some real questions answer. I'm

1116
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,560
Speaker 1: glad you brought up the mainstream media, because yes, we

1117
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 1: should be talking about this case. We shouldn't sweep it

1118
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 1: under the rug. People should be talking about the bow

1119
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 1: Berg Doll case and figuring out what it meant and

1120
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 1: what this cipher holds in it for years. So CNN,

1121
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 1: Fox News, MSNBC, if you're listening, this is a legitimate

1122
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 1: issue that that needs to be discussed. Have Michael Amazon,

1123
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 1: I think that this is a really important book because,

1124
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 1: as you're saying, just so much misinformation out there and

1125
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: it's important to counter that. So the book is out

1126
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 1: right now. It's American Cipher, bo Burg Doll and the

1127
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 1: US Tragedy in Afghanistan co written with Matt Farewell or

1128
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 1: Farwell right. It's out now and Michael regularly also writes

1129
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 1: for Newsweek, the Daily Beast, a lot of other sites.

1130
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 1: The website is Michael dash Aims dot com, Michael Dash

1131
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:06,480
Speaker 1: a m E s dot com at m I r

1132
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 1: K e l on Twitter, at MGM games on Instagram.

1133
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:14,920
Speaker 1: Uh So check him out there before we wrap things up.

1134
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 1: As always, be sure to check out Create Club. It's

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Speaker 1: those listening, now is the time to sign up to

1147
01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 1: the spec Ops Channel. That's our channel that offers the

1148
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 1: most lusive shows, documentaries and interviews covering the most exciting

1149
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 1: military content today. The spec Ops channel Premier Show Training

1150
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Speaker 1: Cell follows former Special Operations Forces as they participate in

1151
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Speaker 1: the most advanced training in the country, everything from shooting schools,

1152
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 1: defensive driving, jungle in winter warfare, climbing, and much more. Again,

1153
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 1: you can watch this content by subscribing to the spec

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01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 1: Ops Channel at spec ops channel dot com and take

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Speaker 1: advantage of a membership for only four ninety nine a month.

1156
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 1: That's spec ops channel dot com. Sign up today. Last,

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01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 1: if you're not already sign up at the News rep

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01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 1: dot com. You've got to get on board expert reporting

1159
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 1: and actionable intelligence from your favorite writers you've heard on here,

1160
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Speaker 1: like this guy next to me, Jack Burphy of course,

1161
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Speaker 1: and the many guest writers who pop up as well,

1162
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Speaker 1: unlimited access to news Wrap on any device, unlimited access

1163
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Speaker 1: to the app, joined the war Room community, invitations to

1164
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,840
Speaker 1: our exclusive events, and it's all add free for members.

1165
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:00,160
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Speaker 1: weeks were only a dollar ninety nine. Sign up now

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Speaker 1: at the news rep dot com. That's the news rep

1168
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:07,960
Speaker 1: dot com. By the way, for those not in the know,

1169
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 1: we have our own SOFTWAREP Radio app that you can

1170
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:13,880
Speaker 1: download for free on iPhone or Android, and our homepage

1171
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:16,520
Speaker 1: is softwarep radio dot com where you can see that

1172
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 1: full archive of shows, including the guys who served with Burgdal,

1173
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 1: Matt beer Can't Cody full Fat Matt beer can on

1174
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 1: several times and I I slept over Matt beer Cant's

1175
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 1: house when I went to South So I'm a huge,

1176
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:30,760
Speaker 1: as a lot of these listeners know, I'm a huge

1177
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 1: Like eighties hairbattal Fan and Docan played their last US

1178
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 1: show with like the original group before they played Canada

1179
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 1: in U and played Japan actually in South Dakota, and

1180
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:43,960
Speaker 1: I was like, I have to go see this, and uh,

1181
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 1: Matt beer Can't was like, hey, come stay with me man,

1182
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 1: and uh so, yeah, I got to stay with Matt,

1183
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 1: who's a great guy. I we interviewed Cody once, I

1184
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:53,080
Speaker 1: didn't really get to know him the way I know Matt.

1185
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 1: But Matt is awesome. Um yeah, and that's really have

1186
01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:59,480
Speaker 1: to spin a fascinating interview and and it actually, uh

1187
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 1: really just changes the narrative of even what I knew

1188
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 1: because having those two guys on, a lot of what

1189
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 1: was echoed is a lot of what we heard. And

1190
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:09,760
Speaker 1: I honestly think a lot of those guys who even

1191
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:11,960
Speaker 1: served with Burg Doll don't know the back story that

1192
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 1: you know, so things even important for those guys to

1193
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 1: read this, Hey have us on together. I mean, I

1194
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:18,840
Speaker 1: I feel for what those guys went through. I am

1195
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:21,600
Speaker 1: no way diminishing what those guys did or and they

1196
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:23,440
Speaker 1: have a right to be angry, and they are. I

1197
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 1: just think, I mean, there's a picture of Matt vier

1198
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 1: Kent meeting uh Chris Parranto and a fuck bau Berg

1199
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 1: dollars like they're not they're not fans of the guy know,

1200
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 1: and I understand it. I just think they should know

1201
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 1: the full story. I mean, I mean, what the fact

1202
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:39,440
Speaker 1: that bau Berg. Look, everyone was looking for bou Burg Doll,

1203
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 1: bo Berg dollar came like the catch twenty two of

1204
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 1: the whole war. If you were there, you were looking

1205
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:46,920
Speaker 1: for him even though he wasn't there. And this this,

1206
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 1: this carried on, this surreal kind of like Joe carried

1207
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 1: on to the legal hearings. One of my favorite moments,

1208
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 1: these legal hearings, which there were all these resources at

1209
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 1: Fort Bragg devoted to these hearings. Right they would they

1210
01:03:56,680 --> 01:04:00,200
Speaker 1: would have like vans and busses and they'd be all

1211
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 1: empty because there are only six reporters there for the case.

1212
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:06,160
Speaker 1: And they'd have all these banded buzzes and all these

1213
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:08,800
Speaker 1: PO I mean dozens of PO guys coming in from

1214
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 1: Fort Bliss and from California for this event. And then

1215
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:15,000
Speaker 1: they just stand around doing nothing. And they would tell

1216
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 1: us that that if um that they started saying bou

1217
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:20,360
Speaker 1: Burg doll ruined my day as a kind of like

1218
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:23,160
Speaker 1: catch all phrase. If anything went wrong, if they got

1219
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 1: a flat tire, some paperwork wasn't right. What happened to

1220
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:27,480
Speaker 1: you today? A bou Berg doll sucked up my dad.

1221
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:30,919
Speaker 1: Boberg doll sucked up my war. Bo Berg doll sucked

1222
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 1: up my day. At some point, the people who keep

1223
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 1: thinking bo Berg doll sucked everything up. Need to look

1224
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 1: at the army and how response where it's responsibility lies. Yeah,

1225
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:41,160
Speaker 1: and it's a painful thing for a lot of people

1226
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 1: to do. Um. It calls into question a hole series

1227
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:47,680
Speaker 1: of different things. Actually, But um, this is an important interview.

1228
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 1: I think I think this is gonna be a lot

1229
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:51,440
Speaker 1: like the interview we did with d Rock about the

1230
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: extortion seventeen crash that sheds a whole hell of a

1231
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 1: lot of light on something people off, kissing some people off,

1232
01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:01,000
Speaker 1: sheds a lot of light on some stuff that was obscured. Um.

1233
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:03,600
Speaker 1: And one last thing, I mean, it makes me wonder

1234
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:06,720
Speaker 1: you were just talking about Trump calling burg dollar trader

1235
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 1: in the past few days. Do you think President Trump

1236
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:12,600
Speaker 1: possibly doesn't even know this whole story. I guarantee you

1237
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 1: he doesn't. I don't need Michael to answer that. People

1238
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 1: assume though he's the president, he knows what's going on you.

1239
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 1: I don't think he does. I don't think he cares.

1240
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 1: But he does need to be corrected and he does

1241
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 1: need to be held to account for it for spreading

1242
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 1: misinformation that was designed by the Taliban to break American morale.

1243
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:35,720
Speaker 1: Good answer, Well, once again, follow Mike on Twitter at

1244
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 1: m I R K k L, Michael dash Aims dot com.

1245
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 1: Anything else that you're promoting, Um, just our book, American Cipher.

1246
01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 1: You can get it at your local bookstore or Amazon

1247
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 1: if you choose. But um, it really is worth a

1248
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:49,720
Speaker 1: read if you follow the news at all. This is

1249
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:53,040
Speaker 1: We wrote it as a as a news story, you

1250
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 1: know it is. Uh. I'd like to think that we

1251
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,560
Speaker 1: have enough characters. We are the only people to interview

1252
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 1: burg Doll's parents. Um. They we We sat with them

1253
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:03,880
Speaker 1: far Will and I at different points of retire for

1254
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 1: more than twenty hours. Learned about their personal relationships with

1255
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:11,240
Speaker 1: Jim Mattis with Michael Mullen, about their deep background, about

1256
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 1: the fact that Bob Bergdahl was the Marquis speaker at

1257
01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 1: Rolling Thunder a few years before Donald Trump was the

1258
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 1: Marquis speaker at Rolling Thunder. So it's been a weird

1259
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:22,920
Speaker 1: time in America, and this story I think gets into

1260
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 1: just how weird it's been and why unreal. Thanks so

1261
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 1: much for coming in a lot of fun. Yeah, you've

1262
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:35,600
Speaker 1: been listening to Self Red Radio. New episode It's up

1263
01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:40,040
Speaker 1: every Wednesday and Friday. Follow the show on Instagram and Twitter,

1264
01:06:40,440 --> 01:07:02,920
Speaker 1: at self. REP radio s