WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 212 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:03.120 Cool Zone Media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.720 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.400 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.680 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.560 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:24.880 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:30.320 Hello everyone, this is Dan el Kurt for it could 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:35.200 happen here. Today's episode will be focused on Arab Israelian normalization, 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:39.879 Arab Israeli peace deals, and Arab Israeli relations more generally. 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:42.760 The reason that this is an important topic to discuss 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:47.120 is because a few weeks ago, the Washington Post published 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:52.239 this PowerPoint presentation originating in the Trump administration titled The 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:56.320 Great Trust From a demolished Iranian proxy to a prosperous 0:00:56.360 --> 0:01:01.280 Abrahamic ally. And this presentation is about God, the US 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:05.360 and Israeli vision for what Gaza's quote unquote reconstruction will 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:09.800 look like. And the word great itself is an acronym 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:16.240 that stands for Gaza reconstitution, economic acceleration, and transformation. Now, 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:20.679 this presentation has so much in it that horrifies any 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:25.000 normal human being, but essentially it outlines this vision for 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:29.320 how Gaza is going to be reconstructed, and throughout the 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:33.160 entire document, it's very clear that whatever remains of Gaza's 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:37.319 population will not have any political rights. There is some 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:41.360 gesturing at some point about handing over some governance to 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:46.200 quote vetted Palestinians, but there's also a repeated discussion within 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:50.000 this presentation, within this document of how they want to 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:55.480 incentivize a significant segment of Gaza's population to leave Gaza 0:01:55.520 --> 0:02:00.000 altogether and not return, and they want to financially incentivize 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.120 them to do that. I think the entire presentation is 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:05.120 worth looking at. I'll put it in the show notes 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:07.960 because it really outlines what they think Gaza is going 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:10.600 to look like and what they plan for the Pileestinians. 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:14.320 More generally, the reason why Arab is really a normalization 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:17.840 is important to discuss given this presentation. Given what's happening 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:22.000 in Gaza after ceasefire is present very much in this document. 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.920 It's very clear from the presentation that the US and 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:29.320 Israel envision a particular role for Arab governments in this 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:32.000 reconstruction and in this new Middle East that they hope 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:35.920 to achieve a Middle East where Gaza is this economic zone, 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:38.760 connecting it to Saudi Arabia, connecting it to other parts 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:42.440 of the Middle East, opening up investment opportunities for different 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:45.400 Middle Eastern governments and companies in the Global North as well. 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:48.520 And it really is just an astounding vision to behold. 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:53.799 Referring to Gaza as a demolished Iranian proxy that they 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:57.400 want to turn into an Abrahamic ally is also interesting 0:02:57.440 --> 0:02:59.519 here because we've seen this kind of language in the 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:03.080 last couple years, especially during the first Trump administration with 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:07.919 the Abraham Accords. Now the Abraham Accords, as this episode 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:12.560 will outline in detail, were agreements signed between Israel and 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:16.600 the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain and eventually Morocco and 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:20.760 a part of Sudan. And these agreements were billed as 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:24.960 this new era of peace between Arabs and Israel under 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:28.639 this kind of religious language and religious framing of Abraham 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:32.960 as the father of both Jews and Arabs, Jews and Muslims. 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:37.320 So to discuss this entire framework, what it means, what 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:41.120 it office gates today, I'm joined by Ben Schumann Stohler 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:45.320 and Matan Kammoner, who have created a new podcast series 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:49.280 called Bad Cousins. This is published by Colomdia in partnership 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:51.800 with the Diasporust and they recently had an event in 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:56.000 Berlin debuting their first episode, which full disclosure I'm on. 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.680 But essentially they tackle this question of why are the 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:03.440 ab Tim Accords named after Abraham? What was that intended 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:07.120 to denote? And why is Arab Israelian normalization such a 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:10.800 big piece of the puzzle in understanding both Israeli Pasdidian 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:13.840 conflict right now as well as the vision for the 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:17.840 Israeli Pastidian conflict from the American and Israeli perspective. So 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:21.799 please enjoy this interview with Ben and Mattan. I wanted 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:24.200 to give you guys a chance to introduce yourselves to 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:26.080 the audience, So the time would you. 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:26.480 Like to start? 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:27.320 Sure? 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:30.159 I'm an anthropologist. I work at Queen Mary University in London. 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:33.760 My main research is on migration from Thailand to Israel 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:37.440 for agricultural work. But this project is something of a 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:41.440 side project that's blossomed together with Ben, who have been 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:43.200 good friends with for I think. 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:43.719 Over a decade. 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:46.320 Now, all right, Yeah, I remember that first book on 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:49.440 the time migrants, but you have also published extensively on 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:53.080 the Arab is really Normalization questions, So yeah, we'll get 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:53.440 into it. 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:57.159 Ben Yeah, I'm Benjamin Sohler. I'm a founder and owner 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:00.400 of Colo Media here in Berlin, Germany. We're an audio publisher. 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:04.240 We have audiobooks and shows and documentaries in English and German. 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:06.920 And yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having us. 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:07.720 Awesome. 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:11.839 All right, So the listeners I'm sure are going to 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:14.720 be a little bit aware, but let's kind of just 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.880 define terms at the top of this. When we say 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:20.600 Arab is really normalization? Well, what do we mean by that? 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:22.960 So it's a long, long process, it's not new. 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:25.760 One of the interesting things that I found out when 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:28.240 researching this, the article that this podcast came out of, 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:31.240 is that more than one hundred years ago, Heine White 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:33.320 Span who was head of the Zionist organization, and King 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:37.640 Faisal were in very very close communication about an agreement 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:39.280 that it seems a lot like a progenitor of the 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:40.080 Arab courts. 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:41.719 Today, we had a very sort of. 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:45.880 Strong pro Western orientation on both sides, pro imperialists. If 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.320 you like use that language. We had a disdain for 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:54.320 the Palestinians as people who were not supposedly an important 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:56.880 factor in the politics of the area, and we had 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:02.120 framing of Arabs and Jews use as relatives as kin, 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.720 which is one that we trace back in the show 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:09.520 to the sort of Abrahamic concept that has really come 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:11.760 to the foe with the naming of the Abraham courts. 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:14.800 Of course, there's a long long history since then, with 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:18.960 the big landmarks being the Egyptian is rarely normalization in 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:21.320 the late nineteen seventies seventy nine, I think, and of 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:23.800 course Jordanian is really normalization in nineteen ninety four, which 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:28.359 came very very tightly knit with the Osloochords and the 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:31.520 initiation of so called peace talks between the Palestines and 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:35.640 the Israelis. So the Palestinans war, of course, do play 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:38.960 a central role here, whether as present or as a 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:42.840 present absentees as Israelis like to call them sometimes today. 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:46.120 Of course, we fast forward to the twenty twenties. The 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:50.480 abraham Acords were assigned between Israel, Bahrain, the UAE, Morocco 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:54.599 and one of the warring factions in Sudan. Back in 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:58.120 twenty twenty, and of course there's a kind of live 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.040 project led by the under Trump as well as Biden 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.960 to extend normalization between Israel and not only Arab countries, 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:07.560 but other. 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:12.400 So called Islamic countries like Kazakhstan. Kazakhstan, yes, which has. 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:14.200 Had diplomatic relations since nineteen ninety two. 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:14.960 But we'll get into that. 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:17.200 Yeah, yeah, But those other ones, of course that are 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:19.600 on the table. I think Indonesia has been spoken about. 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:23.240 Pakistan is always some harring in the background, the big 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:25.360 fishes in Saudi Arabia. 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:26.000 And we can talk about that. 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.800 As well, right, Yeah, And when we say normalization, usually 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:35.160 people are referring to the formal normalization of diplomatic ties, 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:37.120 because a lot of these countries, a lot of the 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:40.400 Arab countries had a position reiterated in the Arab Peace 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:41.760 Initiative of two thousand. 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.920 And two that they would not have normal. 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:47.080 Ties with the State of Israel until a resolution of 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.840 the Israeli Palestinian conflict, and the Abraham Accords was a 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.800 step away from that kind of breaking of that precedent. 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:56.560 But if we think about kind of under the table normalization, 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:58.920 of course, there are so many ways in which these 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:01.960 Arab country trees have had under the table normalization to 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:04.520 varying degrees with the state of Israel. Ben, maybe you 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:09.520 could tell us about what the Abraham Accords were, how 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:12.520 are they build and what did they include. 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:14.800 You have to make sure my the precision of my 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:16.840 language is on point. But there's two agreements, right, There's 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:21.080 two things that were actually signed. So one is the framework, right, 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.600 which which which discusses like Abraham Accords as this unit, 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:27.720 the decoration of principles, the Declaration of Principles, And the 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.120 other one is a peace treaty, right, the peace treaty 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.680 between Israel and the UE and in other countries. 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:33.000 Right. 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:36.960 So essentially that's what it is. It's these two signings. 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.760 But I think when you when you talk about how 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:44.599 it was presented, it's supposed to mean it's supposed to 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:50.200 be like a vehicle conduit for travel, for security, for economics, 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:56.400 for deals, for cultural interchange, for a new way to 0:08:56.480 --> 0:09:00.760 be seen. It's like a massive pr exercise jumping and 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:02.240 with the specifics. 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:04.840 Yeah, absolutely, I mean what we're kind of honing in 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:07.400 on here is the sort of sort of cultural or 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:10.199 ideological aspects. If you want to be more stern about it, 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:12.640 and I think, you know, that's that's the real interest 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:15.640 of the show is in how this sort of mythical 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:17.880 framework that I refer to already, and specifically the figure 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:20.680 of Abraham is really really central to this kind of 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:24.520 ideological framing of their course. Like Foer is written extensively 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:28.640 about how toleration and tolerance have become sort of ideological tools, 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:30.880 and Abraham is kind of a figurehead for that. He 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:32.200 does listen in to two different ways that I think 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.640 are interesting for listeners to sort of follow on. The 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.400 first is as the progenitor or the kind of a figure. 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:39.000 Out of Monotheism. 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:42.480 So Jews, Christians, and Muslims all all have a stake 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:44.880 in Abraham, and of course this concept of the Abrahamic 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:48.040 religions that's very central here. But another one, and we 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:49.880 already mentioned this as well, is this the sort of 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:52.640 language of kinship of Jews and Arabs as being related 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:53.440 to one another, as. 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:55.960 Being specifically cousins or so is called bad cousins. 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:59.120 Because we're kind of exploring the various modalities or the 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:01.679 various kind of shades of meaning and mood that this 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.439 this idea of cousins can have it can be very positive. 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:05.720 Of course, you know a lot of people. 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:08.240 Say, oh Abraham, that's so, he's a wonderful figure of peace, 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:09.320 of hospitality, et cetera. 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:11.200 But they are also really dark sides to it. 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:13.839 The dark size that we really get into are the 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:17.560 sort of misogyny that's very, very central in the Abraham myth, 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:20.280 the underpinnings of slavery versus freedom that are that are 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:23.920 really really present there, and maybe most prominent and most 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:25.960 important to me, maybe as somebody who also studies migration 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:28.880 to the area, is xenophobia. So something that you don't 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.440 have written about, you know, the similarities between the UE, 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:33.880 for example, and Israel that aren't really considered, that aren't 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:35.880 thought about much. One that's always stood out to me 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:37.840 is the way that migrant workers are treated. 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:39.080 In both these countries. 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.800 The Golf States, including including to Ae, are huge obviously 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:47.360 users of non citizen migrant labor. Israel is not as big, 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:49.080 So it's not as big as phenomenal in Israel there, 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:52.680 but it's growing a lot, especially since since since October seventh, 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:54.880 when pastina workers have been shut out of the Israeli market. 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:57.720 And so I think Israel is like the Golf states 0:10:57.720 --> 0:10:59.560 in a lot of these ways, and it's also getting 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.160 more getting to be more like them, and Abraham is 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:05.800 kind of a prism or figuring through which we start 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:06.840 to explore all these issues. 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:12.480 So in my mind, when the Abraham Accords were you know, 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:15.800 whispered about and then we saw them happen, and you know, 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:19.040 I've been writing about Arab's really normalization since before the 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:23.080 Abraham Accords in smaller ways. But in my mind, when 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:26.880 I kind of heard that terminology being used and that 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:32.079 framing being used, to me, it felt deceptive that they 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:37.160 were using this term of like the Abraham Accords denoting 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:39.479 and hearkening back to like the idea of the Abrahamic 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.520 tradition and that we're kin and all of these things 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:45.719 for listeners who are bad at religion as I am. 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:47.760 Abraham had two sons, presumed, you know. 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:52.199 Apparently, and one of those sons is the ancestor of 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:54.080 Jews and the other one is the ancestor of Arabs, 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:57.679 if you believe that. So anyway, I'm not gonna blespheme 0:11:57.679 --> 0:11:58.679 on this podcast, but. 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:00.000 I think the story is important. 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:01.719 I mean, it is a deception. I totally agree with 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:04.040 you on that, but it's important to unpack how the 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:07.240 deception works, right right, right, it's so effective because the 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:08.880 story is so well known to people in the region. 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:11.960 No, absolutely, absolutely, But to me, like the deception lay 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:18.480 in the framing of Arab and Israeli animosity through a 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:23.240 religious perspective, as if the conflict was a religious one. 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:25.120 So to me it felt kind of very shallow. But 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:28.959 then as you start to unpack not only the impacts 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:32.880 of the Abraham Accords immediately so immediately repression increases in 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:35.640 these countries that sign the agreement, But then you start 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:39.360 to unpack, like what are these accords actually serving for 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:42.199 the Arab countries that are signing Why are they signing 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:42.640 with Israel. 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:43.880 Well, they're re engineering. 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.920 They're attempting to re engineer society. A lot of that 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:49.440 tolerance language has to do with that. It's they don't 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:53.240 want societies that are politically active. They want them to 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:56.640 be interested in consumerism, they want them to be maybe 0:12:56.679 --> 0:13:01.800 slightly socially liberal, tolerate the Israelis, tolerate more crimes and 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:07.480 you know, kumbaya, and never ever have the ability to 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:10.679 question the political leadership or the political. 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:12.079 Status quo in any of these countries. Or in the 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:12.840 region as a whole. 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:14.319 Yeah, I think it's all that, but I think it's 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:15.520 also a global power move. 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:15.920 Right. 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:18.880 The golf countries, including Qatar, which has a different politics, 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:22.360 are all really trying to make a name for themselves 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:24.920 to become really really huge global players. They're basically all 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.640 trying to transform this gigantic oil wealth that they have 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:32.000 into soft power, into diplomatic power, into cultural power. You 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:35.079 know this, This this brings us into the comedy festival 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:37.319 in Saudi Arabia as well, right, And I think I 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:39.840 think part of the framework here is we're part of 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:42.360 this larger global story which is about freedom, piece and 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:43.520 friendship through religion. 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:44.880 Now, what's the deception here? 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:46.640 The deception is this sort of and I think been 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:48.880 A this is one of one of his favorite points, 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:50.760 so he can he can expand on this. There's a 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:53.560 sort of like a switcheroo game in which something else 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:55.920 is brought into view and the Palestinians are hidden. 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:56.240 Right. 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:58.800 The crux of the conflict, the crux of what is 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:01.760 basically brought is real to go wild on the entire 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:05.360 region attacking seven different countries simultaneously, is the Palestinians, and 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:07.160 it's always has been the Palestinians is always going to 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:09.719 be the Palestinians there is, and you've written about this 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:12.360 as well. There is a segment of verb society, especially 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:15.160 ever believes, especially in the Gulf, who want nothing to 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:17.720 do with the Palestinians and our andopy would be happy 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:18.520 to get rid of them. 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:21.760 But this isn't the case with the vast majority of Arabs. 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:23.160 It's also not the case with the vast majority of 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:25.360 global South, I think, and even the vast majority of 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:29.080 the global North right. We've seen very very clear majorities 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.760 against Israel's genocide in Gaza, even in the United States, 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:32.080 you know, in. 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:33.920 Israel's biggest, biggest stally ebroad. 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:37.160 So there's in order to not have to talk about this, 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:39.760 it's always good to be able to talk about something else. 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:41.480 One of the many ways, and I'm not saying this 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:43.160 is the only one, one of the many ways in 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:45.880 which the subject has changed is by talking about Abraham. 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:46.800 So we're doing well. 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:48.160 I mean, our show has a little bit of a 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.560 it's it's it's kind of a difficult to move to 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:52.960 make because we were trying to talk about an excuse 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:55.480 but also impact why that excuse is so powerful. 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.240 You know, there's like a lot of violence in this 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.960 peace framing. And if you look at I think it's 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:15.560 point eighteen of the peace framework that Trump talks about 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:18.160 the Trump presented on Gaza. I think it's eighteen. I 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.080 have the quote here, but number it's you know, an 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.600 interfaith dialogue process will be established based on the values 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.400 of tolerance and peaceful coexistence to try and change mindsets. 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:28.840 I mean, this is like to try and change mindsets 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:32.200 and narratives of Palestinians and Israelis by emphasizing the benefits 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:33.760 that can be derived from peace. I mean, it's like 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:36.440 mafia talk, right, It's like you better do it exactly, 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:38.200 you better you're going to love this piece so much 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:40.720 or else kind of thing. I cut up some audio 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.160 from the episodes and from the interview with you, Donna 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:45.720 at the live event that we had here in Berlin 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:48.800 a couple weeks ago. This topic is so feels so 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:51.120 urgent and relevant to so many people that like more 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:53.120 than fifty people came out in the rain in November 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:56.080 in Berlin, and one of the things I played was 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.680 was exactly when you called it an obfliscation, Like there's 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:00.640 this paradox where all these things are under the table 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:03.240 are coming up and are now explicit, these secret deals 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:06.080 with gold states, this normalization that you know, you two 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:08.920 had known about, you know, in your research, but people 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:10.600 like me wouldn't know about if they're not following, if 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.000 they're not academics, if they're not following this closely. And 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:15.240 yet the Abramccords brought this all up. Okay, now we're 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:18.320 now everyone knows right now, we know that like this 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:21.080 is about Iran, this is about security, this is about 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.440 you know, these material issues, right, But at the same 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:26.880 time that that that it's playing on this kind of 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:30.440 clarity and this openness, right, and this moderation, it's also 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:35.160 creating a whole new obfiscation, a whole new myth. And 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:37.680 you know, people love love this quote. Like there was 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:39.440 a lot of like nodding heads in the audience when 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:42.720 I played what you said, Donald, which was like as if, right, 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:45.560 like as if this is about religion, it's about land 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.640 and it's about sovereignty, and and that's clear, but these 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:50.960 aren't called the land and Sovereignty accords. 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.840 I mean, like you said, like you said, it's very violent. 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:58.560 I mean, I've been describing normalization under these terms as 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:02.240 well as the Abraham Accords in particular as authoritarian conflict management, 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:04.960 because it maintains structural violence. It's not attempting to solve 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.119 the underlying, you know, motivations for that violence, which, as 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:10.800 you said, is Israeli Palestinian conflict, which is the land, 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:15.080 which is the the war crimes. And I think also 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:19.080 I want to just emphasize for listeners that the tolerance 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.879 framing in particular, there's like the flip side to it, 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.440 which is you better like this piece or else. And 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:27.959 we're calling it peace and it's Abrahamic, So like, if 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:29.840 you don't like it, what does that say about you? 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:33.760 Are you intolerant? Are you an anti Semite? Are you 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.560 you know, like, it's just how could you be against peace? 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:39.400 The piece is in the name, but it's a very 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:40.320 particular type of piece. 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:41.520 It's a liberal I think. 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.040 I think authoritarian conflict management is a very good way 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:44.440 of putting it. 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:46.840 But also it's also very helpful. 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.800 To help to explain why the Abraham myth is so 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:52.200 useful in that regard. Can we can just go over 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:54.200 the story real, real, real quick for listeners who aren't 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.280 that familiar, Yes, please, so Abraham, who was known as 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:00.240 in all the so called Abrahamic religions, as the first 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:04.080 one to to explicitly reject idolatry. Right, So there are 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:06.000 there are other righteous men in the Bible before him, 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:08.960 but he's the first one who becomes what is in 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:11.679 Islam is known as the friend of God, right, so Khalid. 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:14.000 And he also. 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:17.000 In addition to having this very very intimate relationship with God, 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:18.000 he also has a family. 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:18.480 Right. 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:20.760 And in this family he has he has a wife 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:23.160 and a maid servant. The wife is named Sarah, and 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:25.640 and the maid servant is named Hagar. Now we're gonna 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:26.080 do this quick. 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:26.919 Don't worry. 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:30.040 Sarah is barren, she can't have children. And she says 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:32.359 to she says to Abraham, I have an idea. Why 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:35.080 don't you have a child with with a maid servant 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.159 with Agar, and it'll be my child. So already, already 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:41.040 I think we can see authoritarianism. We can see uh, 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:44.000 we can see authoritarian conflict management already as kind of 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:47.119 the seed that's that's planted in the story, Hagar has 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:50.639 a child. That child is named Ishmael, and Ishmael is 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:53.159 beloved by his father. It's the Old Testament says, so, 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:56.280 it's very very clear, right. But then Sarah gets jealous. 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:58.399 She says, well, you know this, this this son is 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:00.359 going to and his mother are going to be basically 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:02.800 the pushing me out of my of my status within 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:03.320 the family. 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:05.560 YadA YadA, yadah. There's a lot of other stuff. 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:07.359 That goes on, very very interesting and very fascinating, and 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:09.399 lots of it very well known, like so called. 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:10.159 Sacrifice of Isaac. 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:13.840 She miraculously has the child, right that child's named Isaac. 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:17.119 Everyone agrees within these scriptural traditions that Isaac is the 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:18.840 father of the Jews and Ishmael is the father of 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:21.679 the Arabs. This is central to both Jewish theology and 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:23.840 Islamic theology, and the Christians in so far as they're 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:25.960 involved in the story, they're also in on. Now, then 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.000 the question becomes which one of them is the blessed son, 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:29.320 which one of the which is one of the ones 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:31.679 is the one who's supposed to inherit the land that 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:33.840 is the Holy land, wherever that's defined, and that's a 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:35.840 little bit vague as well. The Jews say it's Isaac 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:37.760 and the muslim to say it's Ishmael. So we have 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:41.160 a we have a story what my dissertation advisor, Andrew 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:44.040 Triia are called a community of disagreement. There are people 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:46.800 who disagree on something, but they don't disagree on the frame. Right, 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:48.679 the frame in which all that that the entire story 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:51.840 is inserted is one in which there's no disagreement. Everybody 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:55.080 agrees that Abraham had two kids. Everybody agrees that the 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:58.160 women are basically you know that the women this part 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.560 in the story is predicated on their sons, on whether 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:02.840 their sons succeed. Is is what makes the women succeed 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:04.760 or not? And then the question becomes which one is 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:06.159 the favorite son? Which one is the one that the 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:08.600 father loves and the big father up above also loves. 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:11.240 Right Now, this is in itself, I think, at least 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:13.960 in the way that it's framed in Abrahamical courts, a 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:17.520 form of what do you call it, authoritarian crisis management? Right, 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:20.000 that's what it is. Now, that doesn't mean and I 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.080 think that this is also important. This is also one 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:23.680 of the reasons that we made the podcast that there's 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:25.040 no other ways of reading the story. 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:26.360 How else could we read the story? 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:28.879 For example, we could point out we could note that 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:30.760 the person who has the most intimate contact with the 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:32.320 God in this entire story is Hagar. 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:34.320 She's the first and only person in the Bible to 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:34.959 give God a name. 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:36.840 She calls him Ellroy, the God who has seen me. 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:40.159 She has at least two miracles done to her. In Islam, 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:42.440 of course, her story, in Ishmael's story becomes the story 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:44.760 of Mecca. All the traditions of the Hajj are based 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:47.520 around the story of Hagar and Ishmael. So she's a 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:49.920 central central figure. And she is a slave woman. She's 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:52.240 an Egyptian, She's the one who's cast out into the desert. 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:55.359 She's a migrant. Her name Hagar or Hajar in Arabic 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:57.040 means migrant or migration. 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.720 Right, there's all these powerful undercurrents in the story, as 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:01.800 there are in every powerful myth, that mean that they 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:04.200 can be read differently, and some people are reading it differently. 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:06.280 So I don't think the story itself is the problem. 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:08.119 The problem is that the story is used in a 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:10.679 very particular way, in a way which facilitates again what 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:12.560 you call it, conflictual. 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:15.480 Sorry, authority and conflict conflict management. 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:17.600 Yeah, I mean it's a it's a mouthful. 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:23.280 Maybe that helps us to get to what the podcast does, 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:24.560 Like who do you speak to? 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:27.679 I know I'm on one of the episodes, but who 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:30.040 else do you speak to? And like what trends were 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:33.040 surprising to you? How did your kind of thinking shift 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:33.640 over time? 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:36.119 I mean, let me start at least because one thing 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:37.600 we talked a lot about at the live event, there 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:39.560 was a panel and there was a discussion with the audience, 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:41.760 and one thing that's become excessively clear, like we heard 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:45.560 my time explain the story I'm not from the Middle East, right, 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:48.960 and also in this Berlin audience, like the relevance of 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:51.800 the story as a Bible story. I know I've heard 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:54.719 of the story, but it doesn't have that much impact 0:21:55.040 --> 0:21:57.440 for me, like on my life or on how I 0:21:57.520 --> 0:21:59.679 understand the world. It's a story, It's a Bible story. 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:03.520 And we felt this from the European audience, right. We 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:06.640 heard people say something like like, okay, this is a myth, 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:09.040 but are these the myths that are worth exploring right now? 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:11.520 You know, maybe with like looking at the at other 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:14.800 myths of more like material issues, and I think what 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:17.080 we're trying to do with the show is also explained well. 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:19.440 But these do affect people's lives in the Middle East, 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:21.760 like this is something. In fact, episode two, which comes 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:23.720 in a couple of weeks, we have all these vox 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:25.560 pop interviews from the Old City of Jerusalem where we 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:28.159 talk to people on the street and just ask like, 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:30.720 why do you think Jews and Arabs are cousins? And 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:32.080 what does that mean? And what does that mean with 0:22:32.119 --> 0:22:35.520 the Abraham Accords? And immediately everybody had different Israelis and 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:38.120 the Arabs that you talked to Himtan had different understandings 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:40.400 of the Abraham Acords good and bad. But if you said, 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:42.480 why is it called the Abraham Accords, every single one 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:44.840 of them are like, oh, yeah, because we're cousins. So 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:47.520 start there, right. So so episode one was about the 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:50.000 kind of geopolitics, but that's why you were on Donna 0:22:50.280 --> 0:22:53.120 episode two explaining this kind of what does that mean? 0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:56.240 Then that if everybody can agree that the Jews in 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:58.600 the Arabs are cousins, but the Abraham Accords are seen 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:01.280 with all of these we already started talking about, you know, 0:23:01.280 --> 0:23:07.000 all these obfuscating kind of nasty, hidden, violent undertones, but 0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:09.480 also kind of like sick, you know, we can fly 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:13.080 there or whatever, like all this tourism and and high 0:23:13.160 --> 0:23:16.560 fiving and entrepreneurship and you know, the biggest satyr of 0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:21.199 whatever UAE history or whatever that was, you know, So 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:24.240 like so we start there and then and and the 0:23:24.320 --> 0:23:26.760 idea is to really like then turn this whole thing 0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:28.679 around and look at the myths and look at the 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:31.600 stories and try and understand from all these different sides 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:36.480 we go into, you know, medieval Islamic stories and texts, 0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:39.679 and the idea of hospitality and the idea of of 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:43.240 cousinage and what does cousins mean? And I mean my time, 0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:45.440 you can you can go further here, but the idea 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:48.320 of the show really starts from there, right, And that's 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:50.960 how we're going to like start at the geopolitics and 0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:54.040 end up hopefully and turning the whole Abraham idea thing 0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:56.400 in such a such a somersault that it lands right 0:23:56.440 --> 0:23:58.639 on its head or right on its butt or something, 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:01.840 and and not only we kind of dismantle it or 0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:04.240 understand it and take it apart, but then maybe like 0:24:04.320 --> 0:24:07.119 reclaim it in a different way and maybe even use 0:24:07.160 --> 0:24:11.280 it for some kind of positive progressive purposes, even radical ones. 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:13.520 That I mean Matan and his activism and his research, 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:16.280 you've you know, you've matan you say, you've already seen 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:18.080 and kind of he has to make the case to me. 0:24:18.480 --> 0:24:20.520 You know, that's kind of the framing of the podcast, like. 0:24:20.640 --> 0:24:22.280 I'm eternally making the case. But that's okay. 0:24:22.320 --> 0:24:24.080 I think I think it's it's it's it's kind of 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:25.600 a it's kind of a difficult case to make. 0:24:25.680 --> 0:24:26.760 And and and. 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:28.080 The fact that people keep challenging me on it, I 0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:30.600 think is very is very productive. Well, one other thing 0:24:30.600 --> 0:24:31.760 that came up in Berlin, and I think it was 0:24:31.800 --> 0:24:33.679 really interesting, is that Ben sort of touched on this 0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:35.520 at the beginning of what he was saying just now, 0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:38.440 the way that framing this as the Abrahamic course, framing 0:24:38.480 --> 0:24:41.240 it as the abraham story tends to make it easier 0:24:41.280 --> 0:24:43.480 for people from Europe or from the United States to 0:24:44.040 --> 0:24:46.560 North America to see themselves as outside of this story. 0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:48.560 Right, So this is Donna, you also. 0:24:48.359 --> 0:24:48.919 Alluded to this. 0:24:49.200 --> 0:24:52.199 There's this idea that this is like an age old conflict, 0:24:52.280 --> 0:24:55.560 you know, between these these. 0:24:55.080 --> 0:24:57.760 These relatives who are always quarreling between themselves and oh, 0:24:57.800 --> 0:24:58.760 it's so difficult. 0:24:58.400 --> 0:24:59.920 To primitive people over there. 0:25:00.200 --> 0:25:03.280 Yeah yeah, Q like oriental music right in the background, 0:25:03.480 --> 0:25:07.520 and and hence that we rational outsiders, we Westerners, we Christians, 0:25:07.520 --> 0:25:11.159 et cetera, all these sort of vaguely linked identities that 0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:14.720 so called outsiders have. We are sort of neutral and 0:25:14.880 --> 0:25:18.560 rational outsiders who can play a mediating role and bring 0:25:18.600 --> 0:25:21.600 this this, this, this whole ancient mess to an end. 0:25:21.680 --> 0:25:21.840 Right. 0:25:22.080 --> 0:25:23.800 But the funny thing about this is that it's also 0:25:23.880 --> 0:25:26.760 a religious kind of there's also a religious undertone here. 0:25:27.200 --> 0:25:29.040 There is this idea, you know, a lot a lot 0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:32.320 of scholars have written about how so called secularism, so 0:25:32.359 --> 0:25:35.959 called enlightenment, you know, in the West, actually is a secularized. 0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:37.040 Form of Christianity in a lot of ways. 0:25:37.160 --> 0:25:39.199 And this is really actually very very clear in this 0:25:39.240 --> 0:25:42.240 Abrahamic framing, because there is this idea that Christianity is 0:25:42.280 --> 0:25:44.359 superior to these other two religions. Right, this is this 0:25:44.440 --> 0:25:46.960 is this is the actual universal religion. This is the 0:25:47.000 --> 0:25:49.080 one that is able to encompass and sort of transcend 0:25:49.119 --> 0:25:51.760 the other ones. And hence, I think maybe this was 0:25:51.760 --> 0:25:53.880 controversial few years ago, but nowadays, I think it's quite 0:25:53.880 --> 0:25:56.480 clear that the US sees itself as a as a 0:25:56.480 --> 0:25:58.520 as a Christian state, right, even sees itself as a 0:25:58.520 --> 0:25:59.200 crusader state. 0:25:59.280 --> 0:26:01.000 I mean, they stayed pretty clearly with. 0:26:00.920 --> 0:26:04.360 The Secretary of Defense having deis volt tattoos on his chest, right, 0:26:04.400 --> 0:26:06.440 so this is this is no longer they're saying the 0:26:06.480 --> 0:26:08.760 quiet part out loud. This this in this context as well, 0:26:08.960 --> 0:26:10.520 and they think that they can come in, you know, 0:26:10.600 --> 0:26:13.640 and as these sort of outsiders solve things, But they're 0:26:13.640 --> 0:26:16.120 actually deeply implicated in the story themselves for much much 0:26:16.119 --> 0:26:17.080 earlier than the nineteenth century. 0:26:17.080 --> 0:26:18.680 We could but go back to the Crusades if we want. 0:26:18.880 --> 0:26:21.520 Europe has always been involved in the Middle East, right, 0:26:21.600 --> 0:26:23.760 and the Middle East has been involved in Europe. For us, 0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:26.800 these are near foreigners, right, So there's no innocence here, right, 0:26:26.800 --> 0:26:29.960 there's no there's nobody who's outside the story and Abrahamic framework. 0:26:30.200 --> 0:26:33.240 One of the I think sort of pernicious ways in 0:26:33.240 --> 0:26:35.359 which it's acting in this in this current conjuncture, in 0:26:35.400 --> 0:26:37.840 this current day and age, is as this sort of 0:26:37.840 --> 0:26:40.800 framing that neutralizes the Western influence. 0:26:41.040 --> 0:26:42.639 It makes it seem objective and. 0:26:42.720 --> 0:26:45.920 Rational, and also I think allows the Golf States to 0:26:46.600 --> 0:26:48.840 claim that. Right, there's like some interesting stuff in the 0:26:48.840 --> 0:26:53.200 Facult book that I didn't quite put together about the 0:26:53.280 --> 0:26:58.760 you know, sort of elite Amarathi perspectives as liberal and 0:26:58.880 --> 0:27:02.640 anti democratic. But if you're pro business in a certain way, 0:27:03.119 --> 0:27:05.600 then you can claim this kind of you know, like 0:27:05.840 --> 0:27:08.520 Donnatan you Tube have written about moderation a lot, but 0:27:08.600 --> 0:27:11.040 this idea for me of like, if you can claim 0:27:11.400 --> 0:27:15.439 you know, the business forward thinking, then you're also modern. 0:27:15.720 --> 0:27:19.639 Then you're also considered you know, more above, Like you 0:27:19.640 --> 0:27:23.480 have a different elevation and a different sort of legitimacy 0:27:23.520 --> 0:27:26.320 according to this worldview than somebody that would care about 0:27:26.320 --> 0:27:29.360 such things as the Jews in the Arabs. What an ancient, 0:27:29.440 --> 0:27:34.040 old fashioned kind of passe, you know, the Palestinian issue, 0:27:34.240 --> 0:27:36.920 you knowugh kind of thing. But you know what's cool, 0:27:36.960 --> 0:27:40.119 like artificial intelligence and like shipping deals in the Indian 0:27:40.119 --> 0:27:43.520 Ocean that's new. You know, golf, Yeah, that's sick, Like yeah, 0:27:43.560 --> 0:27:46.600 golf and like virtual reality watching people play golf like 0:27:46.640 --> 0:27:49.520 that would be awesome. Yeah, And it's sort of data 0:27:49.760 --> 0:27:50.720 that's sort of invited. 0:27:51.080 --> 0:27:52.399 The bichocolate, I could go on. 0:27:53.320 --> 0:27:56.320 It's I still think the sator, like the biggest ator 0:27:56.320 --> 0:27:59.080 in Memoradi history or whatever is my favorite anecdote. But 0:27:59.200 --> 0:28:01.760 the way that it invite this space so like it's 0:28:01.800 --> 0:28:03.480 almost like a genius, like maybe it was like Jared 0:28:03.520 --> 0:28:07.639 Kushner's great genius was to see this, like, you know, 0:28:08.160 --> 0:28:11.880 ability to let other people claim the same Christian elevation 0:28:12.240 --> 0:28:15.920 right the same like I'm on the shaky ground here now, 0:28:15.920 --> 0:28:16.400 so I'll stop. 0:28:16.480 --> 0:28:17.920 Yeah, I don't know. If I don't know genius, I 0:28:17.920 --> 0:28:20.080 don't I might dispute, you know what I mean. 0:28:20.440 --> 0:28:22.400 In a way, it's in a way, it's kind of obvious, right, 0:28:22.400 --> 0:28:24.480 like they were they were always going to call these 0:28:24.560 --> 0:28:25.800 Abraham McCords. 0:28:25.400 --> 0:28:27.840 When they did them. In a way, right, Jared Kushner, 0:28:28.000 --> 0:28:30.080 I don't know he was. He's the right guy. He's 0:28:30.080 --> 0:28:31.560 the right guy in the right place at the right time, 0:28:31.560 --> 0:28:32.280 more than anything else. 0:28:32.320 --> 0:28:33.560 But do you understand what I mean that, like this 0:28:33.640 --> 0:28:35.920 invitation into this perpector that you were saying, which is 0:28:36.000 --> 0:28:38.200 kind of like Christian you know, in the in our 0:28:38.240 --> 0:28:41.240 event to Berlin, someone said something like, even without the 0:28:41.360 --> 0:28:45.520 Jewish Muslim context, we have this problem, we have this 0:28:45.600 --> 0:28:49.360 problem in this region, and the abramccords allows the conversation 0:28:49.440 --> 0:28:52.720 to happen on this level of let's talk about chips, 0:28:52.760 --> 0:28:56.920 let's talk about fighter jets, you know, let's talk about drones. 0:28:57.480 --> 0:28:59.880 Yeah, dronesveillance Yeah. 0:29:00.040 --> 0:29:01.600 One of the things that I think is really important 0:29:01.640 --> 0:29:03.239 is it's sort of normalis is this idea that there 0:29:03.280 --> 0:29:06.440 is a place for everybody and the people shouldn't be mixed, 0:29:06.760 --> 0:29:09.280 and there's rarely extreme right, the religious extreme right in Israel. 0:29:09.320 --> 0:29:12.200 There is this notion of the distancing of Ishmael for 0:29:12.200 --> 0:29:15.719 his correction, right, what's the idea here is that the Ishmaelites, 0:29:15.800 --> 0:29:17.320 that is the Arabs, that is the muslim that is, 0:29:17.320 --> 0:29:19.520 the Palestinians, they have their place in the world. It's 0:29:19.520 --> 0:29:21.440 not that that place isn't here, It's somewhere else, in 0:29:21.480 --> 0:29:25.200 a place called Arabia, right, And therefore that's why we 0:29:25.240 --> 0:29:27.040 can be friends with them aratis because their Martis or 0:29:27.040 --> 0:29:30.080 Arabs in the right place in Arabia. The Palestinians, however, 0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:31.960 they are a problems because they are Arabs who don't 0:29:31.960 --> 0:29:32.480 realize what the. 0:29:32.440 --> 0:29:33.080 Right place is. 0:29:33.400 --> 0:29:36.680 They can stay here if they accept total subjugation basically, 0:29:36.680 --> 0:29:39.600 you know Themutrich's plan is sort of a secular. 0:29:39.400 --> 0:29:40.640 Raization decisive plan. 0:29:40.840 --> 0:29:44.520 Yeah, his decisiveness plan or whatever that's called is is 0:29:45.200 --> 0:29:47.360 is a sort of secularization of things that Kahana was saying. 0:29:47.360 --> 0:29:50.080 The so called rabbi may Or Kahana was saying in 0:29:50.080 --> 0:29:51.000 the nineteen eighties. 0:29:50.800 --> 0:29:53.440 The sort of spiritual father that Israeli extreme, right, they 0:29:53.440 --> 0:29:54.920 can stay here if they if they're willing to be 0:29:54.920 --> 0:29:58.160 our slaves, basically, if not, they can go to Arabia. 0:29:58.200 --> 0:30:00.000 And once they're in Arabia they can be they can 0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:02.640 be our best friends. And this is really, I think, 0:30:02.720 --> 0:30:05.200 very very closely connected to the animosity towards migrants. 0:30:05.280 --> 0:30:05.440 Right. 0:30:05.720 --> 0:30:07.600 That brings me back to the figure of or Haja. 0:30:07.800 --> 0:30:10.040 Right, she is a migrant, and because she is a migrant, 0:30:10.080 --> 0:30:12.600 because she's not in the right place, that's why she's denigrated, 0:30:12.600 --> 0:30:15.280 That's why she's exploited, that's why she's cast out into 0:30:15.280 --> 0:30:17.440 the desert. So it's not just about the Palestinians in 0:30:17.480 --> 0:30:19.720 that regard. We can see how this sort of myth 0:30:19.760 --> 0:30:21.120 also plays into the hyper. 0:30:20.920 --> 0:30:22.360 Exploitation of migrants in the Gulf. 0:30:22.520 --> 0:30:24.280 We can see how it plays into the racist treatment 0:30:24.320 --> 0:30:27.920 that the refugees from Sub Saharan Africa are receiving in 0:30:27.920 --> 0:30:28.520 North Africa. 0:30:28.600 --> 0:30:28.760 Right. 0:30:29.040 --> 0:30:30.040 We literally saw. 0:30:29.920 --> 0:30:32.040 People a couple of years ago in Tunia being cast 0:30:32.040 --> 0:30:33.959 out into the desert the way the Hagar and Ishmael was. 0:30:34.240 --> 0:30:35.040 And of course this is all. 0:30:35.080 --> 0:30:38.040 This is all closely related again to Europe, to global 0:30:38.080 --> 0:30:40.240 imperial kind of processes, to capitalism. 0:30:40.320 --> 0:30:43.280 You know what Ben was talking about, hecial hierarchy, special hierarchy. 0:30:43.360 --> 0:30:43.560 Right. 0:30:43.720 --> 0:30:45.400 So one of the reasons that I think we need 0:30:45.400 --> 0:30:46.960 to keep our eye on this ideology is that in 0:30:46.960 --> 0:30:48.800 some ways it's different from what we're used to, right. 0:30:49.080 --> 0:30:51.280 It's not, for example, white supremacy. Right, We're used to 0:30:51.320 --> 0:30:53.400 think about white supremacy as this sort of globally dominant 0:30:53.600 --> 0:30:56.000 racial ideology. But this is something different. This is not 0:30:56.000 --> 0:30:58.520 about people being better because they're white. It's about people 0:30:58.560 --> 0:31:01.120 being better because they're in their right place. And that's actually, 0:31:01.160 --> 0:31:03.160 I think something that's really coming up very very strong 0:31:03.240 --> 0:31:05.200 on the global far right, on the far right globally, 0:31:05.440 --> 0:31:08.440 this idea that you know, oh you'll see like in 0:31:08.480 --> 0:31:09.840 New York, for example. It's not that we have anything 0:31:09.840 --> 0:31:12.320 against black people or Arabs or Asians or anything else. 0:31:12.440 --> 0:31:14.200 They just need to stay in their own countries as 0:31:14.200 --> 0:31:16.479 so long as everybody stays in their own countries, that's fine. 0:31:16.640 --> 0:31:18.440 And you know, with climate change, with. 0:31:18.400 --> 0:31:22.000 All these catastrophica ecological changes that are happening in the world, 0:31:22.080 --> 0:31:24.240 people are going to be moving and we already we 0:31:24.280 --> 0:31:26.680 already see people in masses moving from place to place, 0:31:26.680 --> 0:31:28.840 but that's going to be larger and larger movements as 0:31:29.360 --> 0:31:31.640 in the coming decades. And you know, the basic test 0:31:31.680 --> 0:31:33.440 of humanity is going to be the test of hospitality, 0:31:33.480 --> 0:31:36.000 whether people are allowed to into new places that they 0:31:36.040 --> 0:31:37.840 have to go to in order to survive. And this 0:31:37.920 --> 0:31:39.920 sort of ideology I think is already sort of primed. 0:31:40.200 --> 0:31:42.240 It's primed to deny that and to say no, you've 0:31:42.240 --> 0:31:44.440 got to just stay in your own space, right, So 0:31:44.520 --> 0:31:46.600 against that, Abraham I would like to place Huggar. I 0:31:46.600 --> 0:31:48.280 think she's She's the answer. 0:31:59.120 --> 0:32:00.880 So, I mean, that's fascinating. 0:32:00.960 --> 0:32:03.840 I've never really kind of thought about I've never really 0:32:03.920 --> 0:32:07.760 thought too hard about this story because as a Muslim 0:32:07.800 --> 0:32:12.040 and Arab child, it upset me. But I do want 0:32:12.080 --> 0:32:14.680 to say, like there is as as you mentioned, like 0:32:14.960 --> 0:32:19.280 there is a general trending towards ethno nationalism all over 0:32:19.320 --> 0:32:24.640 the world, but the Gulf States cannot manage ethno nationalism. 0:32:24.800 --> 0:32:26.120 Saudi Arabia is kind of a little bit of a 0:32:26.120 --> 0:32:31.240 different story. But the ones that signed, they are minorities 0:32:31.360 --> 0:32:34.360 in their countries. On top of that, to their own 0:32:34.720 --> 0:32:37.360 citizens to IMMORTI citizens to buy any citizens. 0:32:37.400 --> 0:32:40.760 They are illegitimate. They are only legitimate. 0:32:40.320 --> 0:32:44.400 By virtue of providing economic opportunities. You know, those cracks 0:32:44.400 --> 0:32:45.480 have already been showing up. 0:32:45.960 --> 0:32:47.240 So the way in. 0:32:47.200 --> 0:32:50.640 Which these countries can build legitimacy for themselves offset possible 0:32:50.640 --> 0:32:54.920 public pressure, offset any kind of accountability for their regional role. 0:32:55.200 --> 0:32:57.760 People forget that the United Arab Emirates is deeply implicated 0:32:57.760 --> 0:33:01.640 in the genocide in Sudan. That connect with what is 0:33:01.760 --> 0:33:04.960 I think inherently white supremacist and things like this, But 0:33:05.320 --> 0:33:07.680 of course they're not white, is what ya seen of 0:33:07.720 --> 0:33:11.200 hash Salda Hassyrian theorist calls the ideology of modernism. He 0:33:11.360 --> 0:33:15.320 was writing about the promise and the discourse of the 0:33:15.360 --> 0:33:18.080 Asaid regime when Bashada Usaid came to power. But when 0:33:18.120 --> 0:33:20.200 I read it, I was like, this sounds a lot 0:33:20.360 --> 0:33:22.160 like the ideology of these Gulf states. 0:33:22.480 --> 0:33:24.440 And so he says it has three traits. 0:33:25.120 --> 0:33:28.880 It entirely neglects issues of values such as freedom, equality, 0:33:28.960 --> 0:33:33.080 human dignity, mutual respect among people, in favor of morally 0:33:33.120 --> 0:33:38.160 amorphous categories such as secularism, enlightenment, and modernism itself. It 0:33:38.240 --> 0:33:42.720 neglects fundamental social issues related to poverty, unemployment, marginalization, life conditions, 0:33:42.760 --> 0:33:46.080 gender relations, et cetera. And the advocates of this modernism 0:33:46.160 --> 0:33:48.280 are politically conservative, I mean, just to. 0:33:48.280 --> 0:33:50.760 A t Yeah, that's the Abraham Accords and a unchill. 0:33:50.560 --> 0:33:51.400 Right there, exactly. 0:33:51.640 --> 0:33:53.640 Yeah, And I you know, I wrote about this in 0:33:54.400 --> 0:33:56.160 the context of the Abraham Accords in a paper I 0:33:56.200 --> 0:33:58.640 published in twenty twenty three, but Yasin Hashsala had like 0:33:58.720 --> 0:34:02.239 kind of nailed it back in twenty eleven that this 0:34:02.400 --> 0:34:03.000 was the trend. 0:34:03.320 --> 0:34:03.560 Yeah. 0:34:03.760 --> 0:34:05.680 I think Syrians saw a lot of things earlier than 0:34:05.680 --> 0:34:06.280 the rest of us. 0:34:06.800 --> 0:34:09.920 Yeah, definitely, And so this is their vision for the world. 0:34:10.040 --> 0:34:13.080 And I think this is the vision of a lot. 0:34:13.280 --> 0:34:17.720 Of essentially the right in the world, even in America. 0:34:17.800 --> 0:34:20.560 Likely they don't care about democracy. They want this. 0:34:21.120 --> 0:34:23.840 They want you to be prosperous and in your place, 0:34:24.600 --> 0:34:26.760 and yeah, everybody stays separate. 0:34:26.920 --> 0:34:29.160 Yeah, there's a sort of like callousness around all of it, 0:34:29.200 --> 0:34:31.600 which I think is it's actually a draw for some people, 0:34:31.640 --> 0:34:33.799 because you know, cynicism is a big thing in the world, 0:34:33.920 --> 0:34:36.080 and people are I think one of the reasons that 0:34:36.080 --> 0:34:38.319 people attracted to Trump, for example, is because it's clear 0:34:38.360 --> 0:34:40.959 that he's a completely cynical actor, you know, who's only 0:34:41.040 --> 0:34:43.960 out for his own sake, and people are sort of, 0:34:44.760 --> 0:34:46.520 you know, for better or worse, sick of the. 0:34:46.400 --> 0:34:50.760 Of liberal hypocrisy, so they gravitate towards that. And it's funny. 0:34:50.800 --> 0:34:52.640 I mean, you would think that wouldn't go hand in 0:34:52.640 --> 0:34:54.440 hand with religion or these mythical stories, but. 0:34:54.360 --> 0:34:55.000 It actually does. 0:34:55.560 --> 0:34:58.880 You know, speaking of prosperity, for example, there's in Evangelicalism 0:34:58.960 --> 0:35:00.719 there's a very strong str of what's called like the 0:35:00.719 --> 0:35:03.279 prosperity gospel, this idea and this has you know, very 0:35:03.320 --> 0:35:05.600 very old roots in Calvinism as well. If you make 0:35:05.640 --> 0:35:06.920 it in the world, if you're rich, if you make 0:35:07.000 --> 0:35:08.400 if you make a lot of money, that means that 0:35:08.400 --> 0:35:11.560 God loves you. That's like a proof, right, And so 0:35:11.680 --> 0:35:15.200 there again we shouldn't think about religion too narrowly. Religion 0:35:15.239 --> 0:35:17.799 is really infused in all these sorts of social ideologies, 0:35:17.800 --> 0:35:20.640 among which are this, and I think this is very 0:35:20.719 --> 0:35:21.919 very prominent in the abraham A story. 0:35:21.920 --> 0:35:23.160 In the Abrahamics story. 0:35:23.320 --> 0:35:25.080 Is that well, you know, if they have oil, if 0:35:25.120 --> 0:35:27.880 they have riches, if they've managed to sort of manipulate 0:35:27.880 --> 0:35:29.920 the global economy to their own advantage. Then more power 0:35:29.920 --> 0:35:33.640 to them. Right, And that's attractive. That's that's something that 0:35:33.640 --> 0:35:34.960 you want to that's a train that you want to 0:35:34.960 --> 0:35:37.440 get on. Maybe they'll give you a plane too, Right. 0:35:37.560 --> 0:35:39.800 That was the Kataris. That wasn't ue, So we shouldn't 0:35:39.840 --> 0:35:41.319 get them mixed up. But I think it's kind of 0:35:41.320 --> 0:35:41.920 the same story. 0:35:42.360 --> 0:35:44.080 Yeah, no, I completely agree. 0:35:44.680 --> 0:35:48.800 So, I mean I started this discussion by talking about 0:35:49.640 --> 0:35:53.319 the plants for reconstruction in Gaza mm hm. And you've 0:35:53.360 --> 0:35:56.520 already mentioned that, like the big whale for the Trump 0:35:56.520 --> 0:35:59.160 administration is Saudi Arabia. They want Saudi Arabia to normalize 0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:03.000 with Israel. What are some things we should watch for 0:36:03.200 --> 0:36:05.080 in the near future? What do you where do you 0:36:05.080 --> 0:36:07.040 think this arab is really a normalization is going to go. 0:36:07.880 --> 0:36:10.319 I'm always hesitant to to make predictions. I think it's 0:36:10.320 --> 0:36:14.080 a it's it's an extremely volatile moment. This ceasefiring guys 0:36:14.080 --> 0:36:15.560 that we God knows if it's going to hold or 0:36:15.560 --> 0:36:18.000 if there are just going to go back in and. 0:36:17.560 --> 0:36:18.680 Start genociding again. 0:36:19.440 --> 0:36:22.040 I think we're also seeing these really really rapid movements 0:36:22.480 --> 0:36:24.360 throughout the region with I mean, we keep. 0:36:24.160 --> 0:36:26.680 We've kept we've kept alluding to Cutter, but Cutter and Turkey. 0:36:26.480 --> 0:36:28.440 Are really playing a really much bigger role now than 0:36:28.440 --> 0:36:32.160 the than they were until recently. And that's with American blessing. 0:36:32.560 --> 0:36:34.239 So that's also going to change. I think the sort 0:36:34.239 --> 0:36:37.280 of calculus that that that Saudi makes. But broadly speaking, 0:36:37.320 --> 0:36:38.920 I think one thing that we really need to keep 0:36:38.920 --> 0:36:42.640 an eye on is this iMac Corridor, this idea of that. 0:36:42.880 --> 0:36:45.880 Basically Biden administration was starting up, but but Trump is 0:36:45.880 --> 0:36:48.160 really sort of put into into hyperdrive, which is this 0:36:48.200 --> 0:36:52.040 idea of connecting India, the Gulf, Israel, and Europe through 0:36:52.040 --> 0:36:54.719 a sort of alternative to China's Belton Road initiative. It 0:36:54.760 --> 0:36:56.919 revolves around oil and gas, but it also revolves around 0:36:57.000 --> 0:36:59.920 data centers and AI so sort of geopolitically and and 0:37:00.160 --> 0:37:02.680 and geoeconomically. I think that's that's that's the big plan 0:37:02.719 --> 0:37:06.160 that the Americans have hatched for for the region, and 0:37:06.160 --> 0:37:09.600 that basically means turning Gaza into some sort of concentration 0:37:09.680 --> 0:37:14.520 camp slash as Easy especially economic zone. Right there are 0:37:14.719 --> 0:37:17.719 really really really frightening plans to ethnically clans about half 0:37:17.719 --> 0:37:20.080 of the Guns in population, and to uh and to 0:37:20.280 --> 0:37:22.200 sort of turn the rest of them into into well 0:37:22.200 --> 0:37:26.560 basically slaves, you know, basically uh, unfree workers in these 0:37:26.600 --> 0:37:29.160 in in this so called the especially economic zone that 0:37:29.160 --> 0:37:31.839 the that they're that they're trying to to set up. Now, 0:37:31.880 --> 0:37:33.719 whether any of this is going to actually happen, I 0:37:33.719 --> 0:37:36.400 think it's anybody's it's anybody's guess at this point. But 0:37:36.440 --> 0:37:38.800 it's it's it's very clear. And I just saw a 0:37:38.920 --> 0:37:42.160 physiata speaking about this at the Historical Materialism conference in London. 0:37:42.640 --> 0:37:44.360 It's very clear that it's their plan, right, that's the 0:37:44.360 --> 0:37:46.000 planet's out there. It's it's I don't know if it's 0:37:46.000 --> 0:37:48.759 even been leaked or just publicly released, that this is 0:37:48.760 --> 0:37:52.040 what the the Americans, Israeli's Saudis and immioralties are are 0:37:52.080 --> 0:37:54.279 planning for the region. It's a it's a really kind 0:37:54.280 --> 0:37:56.880 of nightmarish vision that they're not even they're they're broadcasting 0:37:56.880 --> 0:37:59.000 out loud. They're not they're not even pretending to disown 0:37:59.040 --> 0:38:00.799 it or anything. So so you know, we should take 0:38:00.800 --> 0:38:02.759 them at their word, and we should be very very 0:38:02.760 --> 0:38:06.120 clear that this is something totally unacceptable. And I mean, 0:38:06.600 --> 0:38:09.360 as you started out saying, and I think we've always 0:38:09.400 --> 0:38:12.680 agreed on this. The question for the region is the 0:38:12.719 --> 0:38:16.319 Palestinian question. If the Palestinians don't have sovereignty, if they 0:38:16.320 --> 0:38:18.880 don't have freedom, if they don't have equality, if they 0:38:18.880 --> 0:38:21.759 don't have the right of return, then things are not 0:38:21.840 --> 0:38:24.520 going to are not going to calm down in the region. 0:38:24.520 --> 0:38:26.560 It's just going to be more and more, more and 0:38:26.600 --> 0:38:29.840 more violence, more and more of this help for everybody. 0:38:30.080 --> 0:38:31.799 And you know, these have been hellish years for all 0:38:31.800 --> 0:38:34.960 of us. I'm not, of course making any sort of comparison. 0:38:34.960 --> 0:38:37.239 I think it's clear that the things that have been. 0:38:37.200 --> 0:38:40.160 Happening in Gaza are beyond any sort of any sort 0:38:40.200 --> 0:38:43.359 of description in terms of how hard the genocide has been. 0:38:43.800 --> 0:38:45.839 But you know, as in ISRAELI who's currently not living 0:38:45.880 --> 0:38:48.120 in Israel and I would like to return at some point. 0:38:48.680 --> 0:38:51.239 I really hope that everybody in the region can come 0:38:51.280 --> 0:38:53.680 to this very very clear conclusion. You know, whether you 0:38:53.680 --> 0:38:55.200 phrase it in religious terms or not. And I don't 0:38:55.200 --> 0:38:57.160 think there's a problem with framing it in religious terms. 0:38:57.320 --> 0:38:59.040 There are ways of framing it in religious terms when 0:38:59.040 --> 0:39:00.319 we can talk a little bit about that more. If 0:39:00.320 --> 0:39:03.400 you want, just the fact that that that the indigenous 0:39:03.400 --> 0:39:05.840 people of Palestine. The Palestinians need to need to have 0:39:05.840 --> 0:39:08.839 the rights to respected and fulfilled. And that's the only 0:39:09.000 --> 0:39:10.799 the only way that we can that we can bring peace. 0:39:10.840 --> 0:39:13.320 That we can bring you know, these these really beautiful 0:39:13.560 --> 0:39:16.200 biblical prophecies about the wolf and the and the sheep 0:39:16.239 --> 0:39:18.840 lying down and the cutting down of swords into the 0:39:18.840 --> 0:39:21.600 plowshires to make those reality. So some people might call 0:39:21.600 --> 0:39:23.960 that messianic, but I think there's also good, good forms 0:39:23.960 --> 0:39:24.680 of missionism. 0:39:24.920 --> 0:39:27.560 Then, do you have any thing to add pop that? 0:39:29.320 --> 0:39:33.799 My hope the past year two years has been that 0:39:34.960 --> 0:39:38.560 if the Abraham Accords elevated you know, countries like the 0:39:38.560 --> 0:39:43.040 AE two a certain like volume, like gave them a 0:39:43.040 --> 0:39:46.839 certain audience that maybe they didn't have before internationally, that 0:39:46.920 --> 0:39:50.839 then uh, what Israel has done could be criticized more 0:39:50.840 --> 0:39:54.319 obviously and that they would actually have some leverage. So 0:39:54.480 --> 0:39:58.080 my hope still is that as like normal partners, they 0:39:58.120 --> 0:40:03.799 can normal threaten and normal criticize and normal check the 0:40:03.840 --> 0:40:08.080 power of their you know, quote whatever partners Israel. And 0:40:08.120 --> 0:40:12.160 so I'm keeping an eye on hopefully that that that 0:40:12.200 --> 0:40:14.759 will start happening. More of what we do see is 0:40:14.800 --> 0:40:18.280 that like trade continues to go up, and that doesn't 0:40:18.280 --> 0:40:21.439 seem to have an impact. And I find that very disappointing. 0:40:21.680 --> 0:40:24.280 And also at the same time, I see the polling, 0:40:24.600 --> 0:40:26.200 and Donna, you know more about this than I do, 0:40:26.320 --> 0:40:32.239 but the polling shows increasing criticism of normalization with Israel. So, 0:40:33.480 --> 0:40:36.799 you know, the idealist to me thinks that like civil 0:40:36.840 --> 0:40:39.600 society will win out eventually, that this is just untenable, 0:40:40.239 --> 0:40:43.680 and that what October seventh showed was that and the 0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:47.960 and the wars since then, that without dealing with the 0:40:48.000 --> 0:40:50.520 central cause in the region, which is the Palacinian cause, 0:40:50.760 --> 0:40:56.760 like there will be no possible safe you know, entrepreneurial 0:40:57.320 --> 0:41:00.920 dream land of a rich future, that that their claiming 0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:03.640 is going to happen. So that's my old but and 0:41:03.719 --> 0:41:05.120 I keep an eye out for that. I hope that 0:41:05.200 --> 0:41:08.680 they use China and Russia as good countermeasures and counter 0:41:08.760 --> 0:41:11.560 threats to the American agenda, and I keep my eye 0:41:11.600 --> 0:41:12.000 out for that. 0:41:12.719 --> 0:41:16.359 Yeah, I think, uh, I think really that's the That's 0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:21.080 the open question moving forward is like will the political 0:41:21.120 --> 0:41:26.040 elites went out, will they be able to sidestep the 0:41:26.040 --> 0:41:29.120 Palestinian question, sidestep their own publics, who, as you mentioned, 0:41:29.200 --> 0:41:33.439 are extremely critical of normalization, extremely supportive of the Palestinian cause. 0:41:34.080 --> 0:41:37.279 I think the Americans think that they can. I keep 0:41:37.320 --> 0:41:39.040 mentioning this on this podcast, but I was on a 0:41:39.120 --> 0:41:43.239 panel with Stanley McCrystal, General and commander of the Joint 0:41:43.440 --> 0:41:46.319 what is it, the Joint Armed Forces or whatever in 0:41:46.320 --> 0:41:50.040 I Rock in Afghanistan, and he was like, Oh, you know, 0:41:50.160 --> 0:41:52.520 the Arabs really want to move past the Palestinians, like 0:41:52.560 --> 0:41:55.240 it's a thing of the past. If October seventh hadn't happened, 0:41:55.280 --> 0:41:57.920 like you know, we would have just moved past the Palestinians. 0:41:57.920 --> 0:41:59.400 And I was like, what the hell you're talking about. 0:41:59.560 --> 0:42:01.880 That's you only say that because you think that you 0:42:01.920 --> 0:42:04.919 can continue to crush air publics. Yeah, like you are 0:42:04.960 --> 0:42:09.799 predicating your entire strategy on authoritarianism. And it's it's not 0:42:09.840 --> 0:42:13.279 a Middle East problem. It's a civil society all over 0:42:13.320 --> 0:42:16.960 the world has to fight back against authoritarianism or this 0:42:17.000 --> 0:42:17.720 is our reality. 0:42:18.239 --> 0:42:19.719 Yeah, this is I think this is the moment now, 0:42:19.760 --> 0:42:21.160 and this is one of the ways in which the 0:42:21.200 --> 0:42:23.080 rest of the world is becoming more likely our world 0:42:23.080 --> 0:42:25.920 in some ways. As we mentioned, we have large majorities 0:42:25.920 --> 0:42:28.120 almost everywhere in the world. I think maybe every country 0:42:28.160 --> 0:42:29.880 in the world except for Israel. We have a majority 0:42:29.880 --> 0:42:32.200 of people who are now supporting past ten more than 0:42:32.200 --> 0:42:34.560 support Israel, who are against the genocide, who say, you know, 0:42:34.640 --> 0:42:36.839 who answer the polls in a way that that makes 0:42:36.840 --> 0:42:39.000 it clear that they're that they're against what's going on, right, 0:42:39.040 --> 0:42:41.560 and they're against their government supporting it. But most governments 0:42:41.560 --> 0:42:44.000 in the world, most governments in the world, including ones 0:42:44.040 --> 0:42:46.719 that aren't considered very pro pro us are are are 0:42:47.000 --> 0:42:48.280 basically letting this happen. 0:42:48.440 --> 0:42:48.640 Right. 0:42:49.160 --> 0:42:51.480 That means that there's no effective democracy anywhere in the 0:42:51.480 --> 0:42:53.759 world really, except maybe in a few places where you 0:42:53.800 --> 0:42:56.799 can say, okay, I don't know, Spain, some countries. 0:42:56.520 --> 0:42:59.200 Are Island, Yeah, yeah, where even even. 0:42:59.080 --> 0:43:00.920 Those countries, I don't think they're they're doing it as 0:43:01.000 --> 0:43:02.960 much as as as their populations we would like them 0:43:03.000 --> 0:43:03.200 to do. 0:43:03.360 --> 0:43:03.920 Right. 0:43:04.960 --> 0:43:07.880 So, again, this idea that the that the that the 0:43:07.880 --> 0:43:10.960 West is somehow essentially different from these other countries, it's 0:43:11.000 --> 0:43:12.560 also kind of a lot and it's also something it's 0:43:12.600 --> 0:43:14.520 it's also it's also bogus, and we need to we 0:43:14.560 --> 0:43:17.000 need we need to call bullshit on that as well. Yea, 0:43:17.560 --> 0:43:19.840 many people have already have already made various arguments, and 0:43:19.880 --> 0:43:23.160 there's various ways of making this argument that the Palestinian question, 0:43:23.440 --> 0:43:25.440 the question of gods, or the question of the genocide 0:43:25.760 --> 0:43:28.200 is kind of the global question of our time. I 0:43:28.239 --> 0:43:30.520 don't think just because there's a ceasefire that that's going 0:43:30.520 --> 0:43:32.839 to go away in any way. Every everything that caused 0:43:32.880 --> 0:43:35.520 the explosion in the first place is still there, right, 0:43:35.880 --> 0:43:37.879 And I think we're going to keep seeing mobilizations around 0:43:37.880 --> 0:43:38.160 this issue. 0:43:38.160 --> 0:43:38.759 I'm sure we are. 0:43:39.000 --> 0:43:40.840 The crucial question for me is how we connect this 0:43:40.880 --> 0:43:42.279 to other issues, How we connect this to the question 0:43:42.360 --> 0:43:44.560 of democracy. Can we connect this to the question of 0:43:44.600 --> 0:43:46.800 rights for migrants, How we connect this to the questions 0:43:46.840 --> 0:43:49.080 of of of climate change, right. 0:43:49.200 --> 0:43:51.040 And and and various people are already doing that. 0:43:51.080 --> 0:43:52.719 So I'm I'm not saying this is something that people 0:43:52.719 --> 0:43:54.880 aren't working on, but this is this is this is 0:43:55.080 --> 0:43:57.919 kind of the challenge for our for our time, and 0:43:58.200 --> 0:44:00.359 this podcast, this project is is you know, just just 0:44:00.520 --> 0:44:02.319 you know, one small part of that mosaic, which is 0:44:02.640 --> 0:44:06.439 looking into the ideology that framed them the Chords after 0:44:06.480 --> 0:44:09.120 Abraham and again thinking about how we can not just 0:44:09.160 --> 0:44:10.920 debunk that ideology and say, oh, this is it's not 0:44:10.920 --> 0:44:13.200 about this, it's about that but also about how we 0:44:13.239 --> 0:44:14.759 can read those stories in a different way and sort 0:44:14.760 --> 0:44:18.200 of yeah, exactly, to subvert it intimate and to read 0:44:18.200 --> 0:44:20.400 those stories in a way that that that makes progressive sense. 0:44:20.680 --> 0:44:22.719 Now, that's I'm really looking forward to listening to the 0:44:22.760 --> 0:44:24.480 other episodes, not just my own. 0:44:24.640 --> 0:44:27.080 So, yeah, you sound a little more convinced now than 0:44:27.080 --> 0:44:29.399 you did after we interviewed in. 0:44:29.360 --> 0:44:32.200 You I'm being really nice. 0:44:32.320 --> 0:44:35.520 No, I'm just you're being hospitable like Abraham exactly. 0:44:36.000 --> 0:44:36.800 It's in my blood. 0:44:37.360 --> 0:44:39.719 When we played it live, someone came up to me 0:44:39.760 --> 0:44:41.719 afterwards and was like, you know, I agree with Dona, right, 0:44:42.000 --> 0:44:43.720 And I was like, no, I think we all agree. 0:44:43.840 --> 0:44:45.640 Like that's kind of the point. I think we all 0:44:45.680 --> 0:44:48.360 agree on the basics here. The other part is just 0:44:48.360 --> 0:44:50.640 sitting in the cringe, as Madan says, oh. 0:44:50.520 --> 0:44:54.080 Nice, yeah, basting basting in the cringe, yeah, basing in 0:44:54.120 --> 0:44:56.040 the cringe here, and trying to find our way out 0:44:56.080 --> 0:44:59.440 of like a bad mushroom trip hallucination where you can 0:44:59.480 --> 0:45:01.880 do things pretend that the Palestinians don't exist. 0:45:02.040 --> 0:45:04.160 Yeah, you know, that's that's We're trying to be the 0:45:04.160 --> 0:45:06.000 orange juice that's supposed to get you out of the 0:45:06.520 --> 0:45:08.600 you know of a bad munchers. 0:45:08.680 --> 0:45:11.520 How do they hangover whatever? Yeah, the trip? Yeah, sorry, 0:45:11.800 --> 0:45:14.879 don't I don't do drugs. I don't understand anyway. Thank 0:45:14.880 --> 0:45:17.480 you all so much. This has been a very interesting episode. 0:45:17.719 --> 0:45:20.239 And yeah, I'll link in the show notes for for 0:45:20.360 --> 0:45:22.200 listeners all of the things we mentioned. 0:45:22.480 --> 0:45:23.439 But yeah, more soon. 0:45:23.880 --> 0:45:26.560 Yeah, episode episode one is already out by the time 0:45:26.840 --> 0:45:28.920 your listeners hear this, I think episode two might already 0:45:28.920 --> 0:45:32.120 be out as well. Okay, in episode two, we kind 0:45:32.160 --> 0:45:34.920 of go into the into the into the backstory. Episode 0:45:34.920 --> 0:45:37.080 one was was with you and we talked about about 0:45:37.080 --> 0:45:40.319 the chords themselves. Episode two we start digging into those 0:45:40.360 --> 0:45:42.600 into those warm holes of the Abraham story. Interesting and 0:45:42.640 --> 0:45:44.440 we when we talked to people in Jerusalem again Ben 0:45:44.480 --> 0:45:47.880 mentioned this, both Palestinians and Israelis. We went and we 0:45:47.920 --> 0:45:50.040 went out and asked them what they thought about Abraham 0:45:50.040 --> 0:45:51.840 Accords and why they thought it was named after Abraham. 0:45:52.200 --> 0:45:53.719 Yeah, I'm really excited to listen to that. 0:45:53.920 --> 0:45:56.920 Thank you all right, thanks guys, thanks for having us on. 0:45:57.360 --> 0:45:57.759 Thank you. 0:45:58.040 --> 0:45:58.520 Take care. 0:46:00.160 --> 0:46:17.279 The last week, two major news networks, CNN and CNBC, 0:46:17.719 --> 0:46:22.840 partnered with the so called prediction market Calshi, an online 0:46:22.960 --> 0:46:27.560 political betting platform to use Calshi's real time betting data 0:46:27.640 --> 0:46:31.360 in TV news segments, online news content, and, as Calshi 0:46:31.400 --> 0:46:35.320 announced on X the Everything app quote, to integrate prediction 0:46:35.440 --> 0:46:41.560 markets into CNN's global newsroom, with Calshi threatening, quote, a 0:46:41.640 --> 0:46:46.319 new era of media is here. This is it could 0:46:46.360 --> 0:46:51.360 happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. Regular CNN viewers may have 0:46:51.520 --> 0:46:55.960 noticed this integration has already been happening for some time. 0:46:56.920 --> 0:47:00.359 This past election cycle, news anchors used betting odds in 0:47:00.400 --> 0:47:03.920 place of an addition to polling data to weigh the 0:47:04.160 --> 0:47:09.640 likelihood of candidates winning elections. CNN's chief data analyst, Harry 0:47:09.760 --> 0:47:12.719 Enton Nate Silver Protege, who used to work for five 0:47:12.719 --> 0:47:16.120 point thirty eight trailblazed the use of political gambling data 0:47:16.160 --> 0:47:19.800 in news stories earlier this year. How she praised Entin 0:47:19.920 --> 0:47:23.040 by name in their announcement of the CNN partnership. 0:47:23.160 --> 0:47:23.640 Quote. 0:47:24.160 --> 0:47:27.640 Enton is an expert at translating what data and polling 0:47:27.680 --> 0:47:30.640 are saying on any given issue, and through this integration, 0:47:30.880 --> 0:47:34.200 he can tap into real time prediction markets data to 0:47:34.280 --> 0:47:37.279 better inform and fact check his reporting. 0:47:37.560 --> 0:47:38.200 Unquote. 0:47:38.640 --> 0:47:42.160 Here's an example of this reporting in a CNN segment 0:47:42.200 --> 0:47:43.960 from October twenty twenty five. 0:47:44.400 --> 0:47:46.399 If you go back six months ago, you go back 0:47:46.440 --> 0:47:48.879 to April K Baldwin. What were we looking at, Well, 0:47:48.920 --> 0:47:51.760 we were looking at the Democrats with a very clear 0:47:51.800 --> 0:47:54.359 shot of taking control of the US House of Representatives. 0:47:54.400 --> 0:47:56.839 According to the Calshi Prediction Market odds, we saw him 0:47:56.840 --> 0:47:59.480 in an eighty three percent chance. But those odds have 0:47:59.560 --> 0:48:02.400 gone par vomiting down. Now we're talking about just a 0:48:02.480 --> 0:48:06.040 sixty three percent chance, while the gopiece chances up like 0:48:06.040 --> 0:48:08.799 a rocket up like gold, up from seventeen percent to 0:48:08.920 --> 0:48:11.680 now a thirty seven percent chance. So we'll look like 0:48:11.719 --> 0:48:15.000 a pretty clear Demo likely Democratic win in the House 0:48:15.280 --> 0:48:17.920 come next year has become much closer to toss up 0:48:17.960 --> 0:48:20.560 at this point, although still slightly leading Democratic. 0:48:21.040 --> 0:48:24.680 Harry Enton never clarifies how these quote unquote odds are 0:48:24.840 --> 0:48:28.799 formed or what they really are. To a viewer who 0:48:28.920 --> 0:48:31.400 just tuned in or maybe isn't paying that much attention, 0:48:31.920 --> 0:48:36.280 it would be very unclear that these numbers are actually 0:48:36.320 --> 0:48:41.520 from a gambling website. They're just big percentages displayed on 0:48:41.680 --> 0:48:46.000 screen the way you would see polling data or legitimate 0:48:46.080 --> 0:48:50.799 information used in a newsroom. This short section using the 0:48:50.920 --> 0:48:54.440 Calshi prediction market odds was then followed by three minutes 0:48:54.440 --> 0:48:59.359 of analysis using selective mid term voting data from twenty 0:48:59.400 --> 0:49:03.960 seventeen to twenty to support the movement in these gambling odds. 0:49:04.320 --> 0:49:06.920 The gambling ods themselves were a load bearing piece of 0:49:06.960 --> 0:49:12.719 information in this piece. Calshi's main competitor, another so called 0:49:12.880 --> 0:49:17.320 prediction market called poly Market, partnered with x the Everything 0:49:17.360 --> 0:49:20.799 app and Yahoo Finance earlier this year to integrate their 0:49:20.920 --> 0:49:26.880 prediction data into online news content. Time Magazine and Sports 0:49:26.880 --> 0:49:31.560 Illustrated have also both launched deals with the prediction market 0:49:31.560 --> 0:49:37.319 platform Galactic. So what exactly are these prediction markets and 0:49:37.360 --> 0:49:41.120 how do they function? On poly Market and Calshi, users 0:49:41.160 --> 0:49:43.480 can bet yes or no on the outcome of a 0:49:43.560 --> 0:49:47.000 question relating to world events, which is called a market. 0:49:47.640 --> 0:49:50.880 As more money is wagered on either side, the odds 0:49:50.960 --> 0:49:56.239 of the outcome change. Currently, top questions include various predictions 0:49:56.280 --> 0:49:59.320 for Time Person of the Year, will the US strike 0:49:59.400 --> 0:50:01.640 Venezuela before the end of the year, the release of 0:50:01.640 --> 0:50:04.480 the Epstein files, and who will be the next president. 0:50:05.080 --> 0:50:10.040 Kalshi has Trump's chances at six percent. Here's Polymarket CEO 0:50:10.320 --> 0:50:13.799 Shane Copelan explaining on sixty minutes, you. 0:50:13.760 --> 0:50:16.000 Make money if you're right, you lose money if you're wrong, 0:50:16.120 --> 0:50:18.799 and as a result, it creates this information that's really 0:50:18.880 --> 0:50:19.520 isful for people. 0:50:20.280 --> 0:50:23.320 These companies would like you to believe that the ratio 0:50:23.400 --> 0:50:26.240 of people betting yes or no on a certain outcome 0:50:26.320 --> 0:50:31.960 of world events is somehow useful or reliable information for 0:50:32.040 --> 0:50:36.520 the general public to forecast the future, whether that's through 0:50:36.840 --> 0:50:40.480 betting on the likelihood of an upcoming recession, the winner 0:50:40.480 --> 0:50:43.560 of a sports game, which days of the week Israel 0:50:43.640 --> 0:50:47.200 will bonb Gaza, or what movie will win Best Picture. 0:50:47.840 --> 0:50:51.040 Almost fifty million dollars is currently being wagered over a 0:50:51.080 --> 0:50:56.560 potential Russia Ukraine ceasefire in twenty twenty five. Production markets 0:50:56.640 --> 0:51:02.440 currently have three billion dollars in weekly trading volume. I 0:51:02.440 --> 0:51:06.279 do need to note these companies argue that hedging outcomes 0:51:06.280 --> 0:51:10.719 of world events legally is not gambling, because that would 0:51:10.760 --> 0:51:15.600 be illegal. Payments through unauthorized gambling sites are illegal under 0:51:15.600 --> 0:51:18.640 the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of two thousand and six, 0:51:18.880 --> 0:51:22.920 which suppressed the early prediction markets of the two thousands. 0:51:23.280 --> 0:51:27.160 But CALSHI is regulated as a platform for trading financial 0:51:27.239 --> 0:51:31.600 derivatives rather than securities trading or straight up legalized gambling, 0:51:32.160 --> 0:51:35.319 and this determines what entity they have to register with 0:51:35.440 --> 0:51:39.560 and what regulations they're subject to. CALSHI launched in twenty 0:51:39.600 --> 0:51:43.000 twenty one with a federal license from the Commodity Futures 0:51:43.040 --> 0:51:47.759 Trading Commission, and after a year's long battle, in October 0:51:47.760 --> 0:51:50.720 twenty twenty four, a federal appeals court ruled in favor 0:51:50.760 --> 0:51:56.160 of CALSHI, allowing online prediction market betting on US elections, 0:51:56.320 --> 0:52:00.120 rejecting claims by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission that the 0:52:00.160 --> 0:52:04.319 practice was illegal gambling and their concerns that prediction market 0:52:04.400 --> 0:52:11.000 betting could undermine election integrity. Former CFDC chairman Rostam Benham 0:52:11.000 --> 0:52:14.480 misstatement in May of twenty twenty four, reading quote contracts 0:52:14.600 --> 0:52:19.000 involving political events ultimately commoditize and degrade the integrity of 0:52:19.080 --> 0:52:24.360 the uniquely American experience of participating in the democratic electoral process. 0:52:24.400 --> 0:52:28.759 Allowing these contracts would push the CFTC, a financial market regulator, 0:52:28.960 --> 0:52:33.719 into a position far beyond its congressional mandate and expertise. 0:52:35.960 --> 0:52:39.120 A week before his dad took office in January twenty 0:52:39.120 --> 0:52:44.080 twenty five, Donald Trump Junior became a strategic advisor at 0:52:44.239 --> 0:52:49.640 Calshie Hoolymarket launched in twenty twenty without registering with the 0:52:49.680 --> 0:52:53.560 Commodity Futures Trading Commission, and was fined one point four 0:52:53.640 --> 0:52:56.680 million dollars by the CFTC in twenty twenty two for 0:52:56.760 --> 0:53:00.920 operating as an unregulated exchange and was held forth prohibited 0:53:01.000 --> 0:53:05.479 from allowing bets from US based users, though the poly 0:53:05.600 --> 0:53:07.760 Market CEO sees it a little different. 0:53:08.360 --> 0:53:10.000 It was at one point four million dollars fine and 0:53:10.040 --> 0:53:13.520 also was a settlement and you could not have customers 0:53:13.520 --> 0:53:14.320 in the United States. 0:53:14.400 --> 0:53:16.200 Yeah, we had to go in geoblock trading in the 0:53:16.280 --> 0:53:19.680 US and move certain operations offshore. And it wasn't hey 0:53:19.680 --> 0:53:22.200 you're banned from trading the US. It's like until you're licensed. 0:53:22.239 --> 0:53:23.279 I mean it was breaking the law. 0:53:23.520 --> 0:53:25.479 I mean people say breaking the law. It's like which 0:53:25.560 --> 0:53:29.240 law you know? So if anything it's incompatible. 0:53:28.800 --> 0:53:30.040 It's incompatible with the law. 0:53:30.440 --> 0:53:30.640 Yeah. 0:53:30.719 --> 0:53:32.840 With the regulatory matrix that existed. 0:53:33.200 --> 0:53:36.880 The past two years, Polymarket has found to be facilitating 0:53:37.040 --> 0:53:42.280 illegal gambling and subsequently banned in the countries of Switzerland, France, 0:53:42.480 --> 0:53:48.279 the UK, Poland, Singapore, Belgium, Romania and Australia. Most of 0:53:48.360 --> 0:53:53.120 these bands just required geoblocking users, which can be easily 0:53:53.160 --> 0:53:56.600 circumvented through the use of a VPN, and since the 0:53:56.600 --> 0:54:00.640 financial transactions on poly market are all done through crypt currency, 0:54:01.280 --> 0:54:04.400 it's not clear that polymarket is taking any steps to 0:54:05.040 --> 0:54:09.279 enforce these bans beyond geo blocking. In the midst of 0:54:09.280 --> 0:54:13.600 facing regulatory hurdles and bands from across the globe, Polymarket 0:54:13.719 --> 0:54:18.399 still exploded in popularity last year, attracting investment from Peter 0:54:18.480 --> 0:54:22.600 Thiel's venture capital firm and hundreds of thousands of new users, 0:54:23.120 --> 0:54:28.320 primarily driven by betting on the US presidential election, speculation 0:54:28.400 --> 0:54:30.560 on whether Biden would drop out of the race and 0:54:30.640 --> 0:54:34.239 who Trump would pick as vice president, all despite the 0:54:34.280 --> 0:54:38.719 platform technically being banned in the United States after the 0:54:38.760 --> 0:54:41.840 first presidential debate in July twenty twenty four, around the 0:54:41.920 --> 0:54:46.240 attempted assassination of Trump and the RNC, Polymarket gained sixty 0:54:46.360 --> 0:54:51.240 thousand new accounts. The year prior, polymarket averaged two thousand, 0:54:51.400 --> 0:54:55.319 three hundred new accounts per month. August twenty twenty four 0:54:55.400 --> 0:55:01.040 saw seventy thousand new accounts, September ninety thousand, October three 0:55:01.120 --> 0:55:07.920 hundred thousand. The month after Trump's second inauguration four hundred thousand. Currently, 0:55:08.200 --> 0:55:12.920 polymarket has over sixty thousand daily active traders and hundreds 0:55:12.960 --> 0:55:16.160 of thousands of monthly traders since October twenty twenty four. 0:55:17.040 --> 0:55:20.480 To give another example of their recent growth, in April 0:55:20.520 --> 0:55:25.799 twenty twenty three, Polymarket's monthly volume was about three million dollars. 0:55:26.280 --> 0:55:31.239 A year later, it was thirty nine million. In November 0:55:31.320 --> 0:55:36.280 twenty twenty four, it was two point five billion. Last month, 0:55:36.480 --> 0:55:51.720 it was three point seven billion. In summer twenty twenty five, 0:55:52.360 --> 0:55:58.320 cash Ptel's, FBI and the CFTC under Trump dropped investigations 0:55:58.400 --> 0:56:02.800 into whether polymarket was illegally allowing US users to place 0:56:02.840 --> 0:56:08.840 betts using VPNs. Shortly thereafter, Donald Trump Junior's venture capital 0:56:08.880 --> 0:56:12.880 firm invested in the platform, and Trump Junior himself joined 0:56:12.960 --> 0:56:18.240 Polymarket's advisory board. Curiously, a few days after Trump Junior 0:56:18.360 --> 0:56:22.400 joined Polymarket, the Commodity Futures Training Commission announced it was 0:56:22.440 --> 0:56:25.120 going to allow poly market to operate in the United 0:56:25.160 --> 0:56:29.480 States after acquiring another company that held a US license. 0:56:30.480 --> 0:56:34.920 This past October, Trump's own truth Social announced it was 0:56:35.000 --> 0:56:40.040 partnering with Crypto dot Com to launch truth predict Quote, 0:56:40.320 --> 0:56:45.239 a revolutionary prediction market backed by President Trump for enhanced 0:56:45.280 --> 0:56:50.839 decision making unquote. When Barry Weiss's Sixty Minutes did a 0:56:50.880 --> 0:56:55.240 puff piece on Polymarket with its CEO last week, Anderson 0:56:55.320 --> 0:57:01.000 Cooper inquired about the risk of insider trading markets, CEO 0:57:01.160 --> 0:57:04.319 Shane Kaplan seem to think that a little bit of 0:57:04.360 --> 0:57:06.600 insider trading might be good. 0:57:06.719 --> 0:57:12.040 Actually, good predictive markets do rely on someone having some 0:57:12.239 --> 0:57:13.200 inside information. 0:57:13.760 --> 0:57:17.560 Yeah, I think that people going and having an edge 0:57:17.840 --> 0:57:20.440 to the market is a good thing. Obviously, you need 0:57:20.480 --> 0:57:22.600 to curate them, and you need to be really clear 0:57:22.640 --> 0:57:24.480 and strengen on where the line is drawn and like 0:57:24.600 --> 0:57:26.600 sort of ethics, and we spend a lot of time 0:57:26.600 --> 0:57:28.600 on that. But it's sort of an inevitability that this 0:57:28.640 --> 0:57:30.400 will happen and there's a lot of benefits from it 0:57:30.440 --> 0:57:31.800 and people will adapt. 0:57:32.680 --> 0:57:37.120 The CEO did not elaborate on what poly markets practice 0:57:37.120 --> 0:57:41.200 of curating insider trading looks like and where their quote 0:57:41.280 --> 0:57:46.120 unquote stringent line is drawn, because in reality it doesn't 0:57:46.160 --> 0:57:51.040 seem this line exists. They essentially encourage insider trading through 0:57:51.080 --> 0:57:55.440 these vague statements and lack of clear enforcement. From the 0:57:55.440 --> 0:57:58.640 point of view of these platforms, insider trading makes their 0:57:58.680 --> 0:58:03.240 prediction markets more accurate, so it's a net positive, and 0:58:03.320 --> 0:58:05.840 if it fucks over some users on the other side 0:58:05.840 --> 0:58:09.200 of a bet, that's just the cost of business. Last week, 0:58:09.240 --> 0:58:12.840 an alleged insider trader won over a million dollars for 0:58:12.920 --> 0:58:16.960 bets on Google's twenty twenty five year in search rankings 0:58:17.440 --> 0:58:21.360 listing twenty two out of twenty three in the correct order. 0:58:21.800 --> 0:58:24.200 This user has made a series of early bets related 0:58:24.200 --> 0:58:27.600 to Google the past year, like the exact release date 0:58:27.720 --> 0:58:31.480 of Google's Gemini three point zero, which they won one 0:58:31.600 --> 0:58:36.960 hundred and fifty thousand dollars on. But because this polymarket 0:58:37.080 --> 0:58:42.720 user isn't trading stock, there's no clear regulatory mechanism to 0:58:42.800 --> 0:58:46.920 stop this behavior, and polymarket can't reverse these trades because 0:58:46.920 --> 0:58:49.400 they run through the blockchain, not that they would even 0:58:49.560 --> 0:58:54.440 necessarily want to. Professional gambler, political data analyst and poly 0:58:54.560 --> 0:58:58.600 market advisor Nate Silver was also asked about insider trading 0:58:58.920 --> 0:59:02.280 on the China Talk podcast two months ago. 0:59:02.640 --> 0:59:06.720 Are you worried about insider trading with this uh, with 0:59:06.760 --> 0:59:09.439 all this political betting, I mean there's an aspect of like, look, 0:59:09.720 --> 0:59:13.160 these are all crypto Uh, you know you get on 0:59:13.240 --> 0:59:17.320 these markets with crypto and like, like there were markets 0:59:17.320 --> 0:59:20.479 like which way is Suzanne Collins going to vote? And 0:59:20.720 --> 0:59:23.920 you know the sort of the like you know, like 0:59:23.960 --> 0:59:28.120 the tail outcomes for like a legislative assistant in her office? 0:59:28.320 --> 0:59:31.240 Are you know you can make ten times your salary? 0:59:31.320 --> 0:59:34.680 And like a minute, right, what's your what's your think 0:59:34.880 --> 0:59:35.360 think on this? 0:59:36.960 --> 0:59:38.120 For sure? 0:59:38.280 --> 0:59:39.800 I mean, look, I think there are a couple of 0:59:39.880 --> 0:59:43.360 qualifications though, Like, first of all, I think people on 0:59:43.400 --> 0:59:45.760 the inside often aren't as well as a formed as 0:59:45.800 --> 0:59:49.800 they think, and or there are some downsides having an 0:59:49.840 --> 0:59:51.400 inside view and not an outside of you. You might 0:59:51.520 --> 0:59:53.960 drink the kool aid, so to speak, right, you might 0:59:53.960 --> 0:59:54.920 be in a bubble. 0:59:56.600 --> 0:59:58.760 Yeah, look, I mean I mean there are ones where 0:59:58.840 --> 1:00:01.880 it's like you can literally I mean there's been a 1:00:01.920 --> 1:00:04.439 lots of group chats people talking about like very very 1:00:04.440 --> 1:00:07.600 sketchy trades and one way bets that are being made 1:00:07.600 --> 1:00:09.080 in the stock market of like what's. 1:00:08.880 --> 1:00:10.360 Going to happen with a trade deal? 1:00:10.400 --> 1:00:13.320 I mean you can literally be the person who decides 1:00:13.480 --> 1:00:16.680 right and be vetting on the side if weird. 1:00:17.040 --> 1:00:20.640 If there are incentives to make money in a world 1:00:20.680 --> 1:00:23.000 of eight million people, many of them are very competitive, 1:00:23.040 --> 1:00:24.440 and all of whom and on all of them, most 1:00:24.440 --> 1:00:25.360 of them acts to the Internet. 1:00:25.400 --> 1:00:27.360 Right, people are going to find a way a way 1:00:27.400 --> 1:00:27.760 to do it. 1:00:27.880 --> 1:00:31.600 Right, Let's pause here for a sec. What do you 1:00:31.760 --> 1:00:35.840 think Nick goes on to list as a comparison to 1:00:35.960 --> 1:00:40.959 political insider trading as like an unfortunate but somewhat inevitable 1:00:41.040 --> 1:00:44.360 consequence of our evolving system of finance. 1:00:45.040 --> 1:00:46.959 Like in the crypto space, we've seen an increasing number 1:00:46.960 --> 1:00:51.640 of like crypto kidnappings. Right, Well, I mean, that's one 1:00:51.680 --> 1:00:54.400 of the consequences if people are worth vast amounts of 1:00:54.440 --> 1:00:58.120 wealth that isn't very secure it it's just gonna gonna 1:00:58.120 --> 1:01:01.240 happen until you up security or a better or whatever else. 1:01:01.280 --> 1:01:03.640 And so like, you know, I don't think there's necessarily 1:01:04.160 --> 1:01:06.960 anymore or less insider creating on like polymarket than there 1:01:07.040 --> 1:01:09.760 might be for in sports betting sites. We've seen a 1:01:09.800 --> 1:01:13.200 lot of sports betting scandals or for regular equities. You know, 1:01:13.640 --> 1:01:17.680 I believe the literature says that like members of Congress 1:01:18.640 --> 1:01:21.960 achieve abnormal returns from their stock portfolios. 1:01:21.960 --> 1:01:23.480 I have to do I'm sure there's some debate about that. 1:01:23.480 --> 1:01:25.520 I have to like to double check that, right. 1:01:25.920 --> 1:01:29.640 It's fine, Bros. It's just like cryptocurrency kidnapping. It's fine. 1:01:29.680 --> 1:01:30.200 Actually. 1:01:31.200 --> 1:01:34.640 So Nay goes on to say that prediction market insider 1:01:34.680 --> 1:01:40.200 trading isn't that different from congressmen doing insider trading on 1:01:40.240 --> 1:01:44.320 the stock market, or like rigged sports betting, but he 1:01:44.680 --> 1:01:48.960 really neglects to emphasize that those things are also bad 1:01:49.080 --> 1:01:53.200 and should be aggressively clamped down on. That shouldn't be allowed, 1:01:54.240 --> 1:01:59.400 and prediction markets intentionally skirch regulation. They currently have far 1:01:59.480 --> 1:02:03.480 less legal protections for users against unfair practices, and with 1:02:03.600 --> 1:02:08.000 crypto they can be pretty anonymized, enabling bad actors. And 1:02:08.080 --> 1:02:12.560 now news companies are legitimizing turning everyone's phone into a 1:02:12.640 --> 1:02:17.720 corrupt casino for world events, whether that's Israel starving Palestine 1:02:18.040 --> 1:02:21.080 or how many tweets Elon Musk is going to publish 1:02:21.200 --> 1:02:25.880 this week. The day before CALSH announced their partnership agreement 1:02:25.960 --> 1:02:30.800 with CNN and NCNBC, CBS aired a sixty minutes puff 1:02:30.840 --> 1:02:34.240 piece on polymarket, anchored by Anderson Cooper. 1:02:34.920 --> 1:02:37.400 When we met with Copeland last month, more than three 1:02:37.400 --> 1:02:40.240 point six million dollars had been wagered on whether or 1:02:40.320 --> 1:02:44.000 not Venezuela's president Nicholas Muduro would be out of power 1:02:44.040 --> 1:02:47.520 by the end of the year. Polymarket users didn't think, 1:02:47.560 --> 1:02:50.360 so they gave it only a twenty three percent chance. 1:02:50.880 --> 1:02:54.440 And if you buy no on that and you're buying 1:02:54.440 --> 1:02:57.000 it at seventy eight cents and at the end of 1:02:57.040 --> 1:02:58.360 the year he's still. 1:02:58.120 --> 1:02:59.680 In power, yeah, you get a dollar. 1:03:00.440 --> 1:03:01.600 So you've made a profit of. 1:03:01.720 --> 1:03:02.880 Twenty two cents for share. 1:03:03.000 --> 1:03:05.520 I wudn't see why this would be I mean, I 1:03:05.560 --> 1:03:08.040 don't want to use a term addictive, but it would 1:03:08.040 --> 1:03:10.840 be compelling. I mean, maybe it is a tick fier, well, 1:03:10.960 --> 1:03:11.680 certainly compelling. 1:03:11.760 --> 1:03:12.520 This is how I see it. 1:03:12.800 --> 1:03:16.560 If you are into geopolitics, this creates an incentive for 1:03:16.680 --> 1:03:19.120 you to dig in to what's going on in Venezuela 1:03:19.360 --> 1:03:20.560 and try and get an edge. 1:03:21.080 --> 1:03:25.240 Anderson Cooper, who both works for the newly Calshi partnered 1:03:25.360 --> 1:03:30.440 CNN as well as CBS's Sixty Minutes, is so hesitant 1:03:30.960 --> 1:03:36.840 to call this clearly addictive practice addictive, quote unquote compelling. 1:03:37.560 --> 1:03:42.320 Here's how Polymarket CEO Shane Copelan explained the platform earlier 1:03:42.440 --> 1:03:43.200 in this piece. 1:03:43.960 --> 1:03:48.200 It's a site where you can basically bet on current events, 1:03:48.560 --> 1:03:50.840 some sort of question about the future like an election, 1:03:51.520 --> 1:03:53.680 and as a result, when a ton of people are betting, 1:03:54.040 --> 1:03:57.200 you get the betting odds, which basically tell you how 1:03:57.400 --> 1:03:59.480 likely each outcome is and how. 1:03:59.320 --> 1:04:00.000 Accurate it is. 1:03:59.880 --> 1:04:03.240 It's the most accurate thing we have as mankind right now, 1:04:03.360 --> 1:04:06.600 until someone else creates some sort of super crystal ball. 1:04:07.320 --> 1:04:11.959 Anderson Cooper responds with narration that the CEO quote may 1:04:12.000 --> 1:04:17.400 be prone to hyperbole, but he's definitely onto something unquote. 1:04:17.880 --> 1:04:21.760 In explaining how poly market users attempt to seek truth 1:04:21.800 --> 1:04:24.720 and gain an edge, Copeland told the story of how 1:04:24.760 --> 1:04:28.400 in twenty twenty four, an anonymous French user made over 1:04:28.520 --> 1:04:31.960 eighty million dollars on poly market by betting on Trump 1:04:32.040 --> 1:04:35.560 winning the presidential election, and to bolster his bets, he 1:04:35.720 --> 1:04:39.360 contracted you goov to conduct private polls in swing states. 1:04:39.600 --> 1:04:41.880 People thought he'd just liked Trump, and he had actually 1:04:41.880 --> 1:04:44.720 commissioned a ton of private polls. He did something called 1:04:44.760 --> 1:04:47.360 neighbor polling, which is you ask people who they think 1:04:47.360 --> 1:04:48.520 their neighbors. 1:04:48.080 --> 1:04:49.440 Are likely to vote for. 1:04:49.440 --> 1:04:52.560 Four scenarios for an election where there's a stigma to 1:04:52.560 --> 1:04:54.520 saying you're going to vote for somebody, and people feel 1:04:54.560 --> 1:04:56.800 some sort of social awkwardness and What he noticed was 1:04:56.840 --> 1:04:59.560 there was huge discrepancy in the neighbor polling versus the 1:04:59.560 --> 1:05:03.280 normal pole, and the neighbor polling favored Trump enormously. 1:05:03.360 --> 1:05:04.560 He thought Trump was undervalued. 1:05:05.200 --> 1:05:07.280 If this guy was not able to make eighty million, 1:05:07.320 --> 1:05:09.360 but rather able to make eighty thousand dollars, he would 1:05:09.360 --> 1:05:12.240 have never gone through the hassle. But when you get 1:05:12.240 --> 1:05:14.720 markets that are big enough, you create this incentive for 1:05:14.760 --> 1:05:17.120 people to go above and beyond to try and find truth. 1:05:17.880 --> 1:05:20.920 What the CEO is arguing here is that the sheer 1:05:21.040 --> 1:05:25.360 scale of money being wagered creates incentive to quote unquote 1:05:25.560 --> 1:05:30.280 find truth. In media discussions of prediction markets, there's this 1:05:30.480 --> 1:05:35.720 specter of objectivity around the gambled odds, which obviously the 1:05:35.760 --> 1:05:39.480 CEO of Polymarket has a personal incentive to encourage. But 1:05:39.840 --> 1:05:44.720 Anderson Cooper here doesn't challenge this notion of capital t 1:05:44.720 --> 1:05:49.400 truth even though Donald Trump was way ahead in prediction 1:05:49.560 --> 1:05:53.720 market odds back during the twenty twenty election, which had 1:05:53.720 --> 1:05:57.000 his chances of winning that election far higher than what 1:05:57.120 --> 1:06:01.640 pure polling models showed. Well, she claims that prediction markets 1:06:01.680 --> 1:06:06.160 can help journalists quote unquote fact check, but doesn't explain 1:06:06.360 --> 1:06:11.800 how fact can be determined from speculative gambling markets. Where 1:06:11.880 --> 1:06:15.760 is the fact in gambling, Well, we will find out 1:06:16.240 --> 1:06:31.840 after these ads. To quote from poly market advisor Nate 1:06:32.040 --> 1:06:36.200 Silver's blog The Silver Bulletin quote, It's basically good when 1:06:36.240 --> 1:06:40.600 people are more exposed to probabilities and they become more normalized. 1:06:41.160 --> 1:06:45.160 But of course I also analyze poles and build probabilistic 1:06:45.240 --> 1:06:49.880 models myself in that capacity, I strongly disagree with the 1:06:49.920 --> 1:06:53.600 notion that prediction markets can serve as a good substitute 1:06:53.680 --> 1:06:57.120 for poles. These sorts of claims are sometimes advanced by 1:06:57.160 --> 1:07:01.400 the prediction market companies themselves, including Polymarket. To be fair, 1:07:02.040 --> 1:07:06.200 one minor pet peeve is that both reporters and readers 1:07:06.440 --> 1:07:12.640 often confuse probabilities for poll results unquote, As Nate goes 1:07:12.680 --> 1:07:15.840 on to explain, if Trump is up fifty five to 1:07:15.880 --> 1:07:20.040 forty five over Kamala Harris on a prediction market, that's 1:07:20.080 --> 1:07:24.040 not saying that Trump is expected to win by ten points. 1:07:24.640 --> 1:07:27.960 It means that ten percent more users on the website 1:07:28.320 --> 1:07:31.919 favor Trump winning, which is pretty close to a toss up. 1:07:32.520 --> 1:07:36.440 This confusion is a huge problem which is bolstered in 1:07:36.560 --> 1:07:40.600 both how prediction market companies market their platform but also 1:07:40.760 --> 1:07:44.960 how journalists use gambling data in news stories. If you 1:07:45.000 --> 1:07:48.400 see a social media post, an advertisement, or a random 1:07:48.440 --> 1:07:53.600 news segment showing percentages tied to pictures of two politicians 1:07:53.600 --> 1:07:56.280 in a race without context, those betting numbers could be 1:07:56.320 --> 1:08:00.000 interpreted in a number of ways and influence someone's percent 1:08:00.000 --> 1:08:03.320 exception of an election, and maybe even their choice on 1:08:03.400 --> 1:08:06.360 who to vote for or even whether to vote at all. 1:08:06.920 --> 1:08:11.120 In an October speech, Zora Mumdani reference to Calshi billboards 1:08:11.400 --> 1:08:14.920 predicting a Cuomo victory in the Democratic primary. 1:08:15.520 --> 1:08:17.960 When I walked the length of Manhattan just a few 1:08:18.000 --> 1:08:23.200 days before the election, hundreds of New Yorkers marched alongside me. 1:08:26.120 --> 1:08:27.600 And when we strolled. 1:08:27.200 --> 1:08:30.559 Into Times Square under a billboard with betting odds that 1:08:30.680 --> 1:08:34.680 showed Cuomo's chances of winning at nearly eighty percent, we 1:08:34.800 --> 1:08:37.240 knew that the so called experts were set to get 1:08:37.240 --> 1:08:46.320 it wrong yet again. Andrew Cuomo was supposed to be inevitable. 1:08:46.520 --> 1:08:50.000 When you see the Calshi odds that have our chances 1:08:50.000 --> 1:08:54.559 of victory in the nineties, know this. You are reading 1:08:54.600 --> 1:08:58.000 the same things that Andrew Cuomo read when he went 1:08:58.040 --> 1:09:02.360 to sleep each night in June, believing that his victory 1:09:02.479 --> 1:09:08.320 was promised. We cannot allow complacency to infiltrate this movement. 1:09:10.520 --> 1:09:14.040 Cal She excitedly shared the latter half of that clip, 1:09:14.360 --> 1:09:20.440 proclaiming breaking zoron Mamdani references his Calci odds on stage, 1:09:20.880 --> 1:09:26.920 Calshi is mainstream unquote despite this clip demonstrating how prediction 1:09:27.000 --> 1:09:32.959 markets often suffer from inaccurate bias. Last week, Discount Steve Kornaki, 1:09:33.320 --> 1:09:36.320 former five point thirty eight analyst and now CNN's data expert, 1:09:36.400 --> 1:09:41.320 Harry Enton shared this segment about the Tennessee District seven 1:09:41.680 --> 1:09:44.799 special election on x the Everything app with the caption 1:09:45.520 --> 1:09:48.720 odds are Dems will come within ten points of a win, 1:09:49.160 --> 1:09:50.760 if not outright win. 1:09:51.320 --> 1:09:52.880 I would say, if you had to look at the 1:09:52.880 --> 1:09:56.679 congressional map any district that Donald Trump won by twenty 1:09:56.680 --> 1:09:59.160 two points, you would say, you know, you've got like 1:09:59.360 --> 1:10:01.559 nearly a one one hundred percent chance of winning if 1:10:01.560 --> 1:10:02.680 you're running for Congress there. 1:10:02.720 --> 1:10:04.240 But what are the prediction markets saying right now? 1:10:04.280 --> 1:10:05.840 You know, what are we talking about in terms of 1:10:05.880 --> 1:10:08.599 the prediction market? Us, Look, the Democrat has a fifteen 1:10:08.640 --> 1:10:11.200 percent chance of winning in that race, Okay, a fifteen 1:10:11.240 --> 1:10:13.960 percent chance, which ain't nothing in a district that Donald 1:10:14.000 --> 1:10:17.320 Trump won by twenty two points. But here I think 1:10:17.400 --> 1:10:19.080 is the key nugget on this side of the of 1:10:19.120 --> 1:10:21.479 the ledger, and that is a GOP win by under 1:10:21.479 --> 1:10:24.439 ten points. There's a sixty eight percent chance of that. 1:10:24.760 --> 1:10:27.680 So there is a more than two thirds chance that 1:10:27.720 --> 1:10:31.559 the Republican candidate, Yes, they win, but they win by 1:10:31.640 --> 1:10:35.280 a significantly lower margin than Donald Trump. We're talking about 1:10:35.320 --> 1:10:39.960 double digits, smaller. We're talking about a huge, huge shift. 1:10:39.680 --> 1:10:40.080 To the left. 1:10:40.080 --> 1:10:42.559 We're talking about when you add these two together, we're 1:10:42.600 --> 1:10:45.400 talking about a more than eighty percent chance that there 1:10:45.479 --> 1:10:48.080 is a clear double digit shift to the left, and 1:10:48.120 --> 1:10:50.600 a fifteen percent chance the Democrat actually wins in a 1:10:50.680 --> 1:10:53.320 district that Donald Trump won by twenty two points. That 1:10:53.520 --> 1:10:56.960 just shows you how bad the environment is for Republicans 1:10:57.040 --> 1:10:58.840 right now, that the Democrat has any sort of a chance, 1:10:58.840 --> 1:10:59.080 and this. 1:10:59.080 --> 1:11:02.400 They talk to you about this, he's just authoritatively rattling 1:11:02.439 --> 1:11:07.680 off complete speculation on a Democrat victory. As big screens 1:11:07.760 --> 1:11:13.480 display percentages in huge text with source Calci in tiny 1:11:13.680 --> 1:11:17.880 text the bottom of the screen. Ordinary polling showed that 1:11:17.960 --> 1:11:21.200 this was a close race that leaned red by two 1:11:21.240 --> 1:11:24.559 to eight points, and the Republican did end up winning 1:11:24.920 --> 1:11:29.519 by nine points. To quote the broken clock Nate silver quote. 1:11:30.000 --> 1:11:33.559 Without having polls to look at, the prediction markets would 1:11:33.600 --> 1:11:39.120 probably kind of suck at making election forecasts. Translating poles 1:11:39.200 --> 1:11:43.120 into probabilities is considerably more complicated when there are many 1:11:43.120 --> 1:11:46.600 correlated races at once, such as in the battle for 1:11:46.680 --> 1:11:51.160 the electoral College or control of Congress. Prediction markets had 1:11:51.160 --> 1:11:54.679 a strong twenty twenty four in this regard. They leaned 1:11:54.760 --> 1:11:57.880 toward Trump when our model had it at fifty to fifty. 1:11:58.600 --> 1:12:01.400 I don't think this was because of any special modeling 1:12:01.479 --> 1:12:05.160 insight per se, but because they incorporated some sort of 1:12:05.400 --> 1:12:11.519 prior intuition that Trump would overperform his polls. Again, so 1:12:11.760 --> 1:12:15.479 give the markets credit for that. These sorts of soft 1:12:15.600 --> 1:12:20.920 quote unquote intangible intuitions can be valuable, though you'd need 1:12:21.040 --> 1:12:24.080 a lot of data to determine whether they add or 1:12:24.120 --> 1:12:28.840 subtract value in the long run unquote, As Nate himself acknowledges, 1:12:29.240 --> 1:12:32.639 someone like Andrew Cuomo had much higher betting odds throughout 1:12:32.640 --> 1:12:36.520 the entire New York mayoral race than a purely statistical 1:12:36.640 --> 1:12:40.719 model would show. A contention. I have with Nate. One 1:12:40.760 --> 1:12:46.200 of many is though I call prediction market numbers gambling odds. 1:12:46.880 --> 1:12:53.760 They are not actual probabilities. These odds aren't based on objective, 1:12:53.840 --> 1:12:57.839 mathematical principles like flipping a coin, the three door problem, 1:12:58.160 --> 1:13:02.200 or even something like blackjack. These odds are created whole 1:13:02.280 --> 1:13:07.920 cloth through guessing, sometimes educated or data informed guessing, but 1:13:08.000 --> 1:13:13.560 still primarily through people's intuition, which is susceptible to group impulses. 1:13:14.280 --> 1:13:19.080 Many random world events lack a reliable basis of continuous 1:13:19.240 --> 1:13:22.840 controlled data that's needed to form a probability, like that 1:13:22.880 --> 1:13:26.160 which is applied to legalized sports betting. This is quite 1:13:26.200 --> 1:13:29.480 evident in the betting odds around the Last People Conclave, 1:13:29.800 --> 1:13:34.400 which had very little relevant data to use for informed predictions. 1:13:34.880 --> 1:13:38.200 There was no existing probability to support the election of 1:13:38.240 --> 1:13:42.400 an American pope, a first time occurrence. With prediction markets, 1:13:42.520 --> 1:13:45.639 people can still do research to make an informed bet, 1:13:46.000 --> 1:13:49.000 but it's not really the case that X candidate is 1:13:49.120 --> 1:13:52.920 mathematically expected to win an election. Eighty out of one 1:13:53.000 --> 1:13:57.760 hundred instances a hive mind of users have formed that 1:13:57.840 --> 1:14:01.920 statistical division through the power of money, eighty percent of 1:14:02.000 --> 1:14:05.759 users are betting that a certain result is likely to occur. 1:14:06.680 --> 1:14:10.320 So the problem isn't just that, like Nate says, people 1:14:10.360 --> 1:14:15.759 are confusing probabilities for polls. It's that they're confusing prediction 1:14:15.960 --> 1:14:21.320 market betting odds for mathematical probabilities. It's this difference that 1:14:21.400 --> 1:14:25.599 allows betting on sports outcomes via Calshian poly market, even 1:14:25.720 --> 1:14:29.840 in states that ban typical sports betting, because you're not 1:14:29.960 --> 1:14:34.680 actually betting on fixed odds, you're betting against other investors. 1:14:35.560 --> 1:14:39.519 And now news companies are not just manufacturing consent and 1:14:39.720 --> 1:14:45.000 normalizing political gambling, but are actively encouraging the use of 1:14:45.040 --> 1:14:50.679 these platforms and endorsing the predictive capacity of these gambling markets. 1:14:51.120 --> 1:14:54.880 Anderson Cooper calls it the quote unquote wisdom of crowds. 1:14:55.439 --> 1:15:00.840 But we already have methods for learning group consensus, which 1:15:01.000 --> 1:15:05.240 may have problems, but frankly far fewer problems than gambling 1:15:05.400 --> 1:15:09.759 on world events. Beyond the moral qualms of betting money 1:15:09.760 --> 1:15:13.880 on human suffering, prediction markets are susceptible to not just 1:15:14.120 --> 1:15:17.839 personal bias, but group bias based on the current ratio 1:15:17.840 --> 1:15:21.120 of odds. This in group consensus can be influenced by 1:15:21.240 --> 1:15:25.280 short lived trending topics, and these platforms cater to a 1:15:25.720 --> 1:15:30.200 hyper online point of view. Prediction market users provide a 1:15:30.320 --> 1:15:35.960 very non representational sample variety pulling from a very specific 1:15:36.160 --> 1:15:41.080 type of guy who regularly uses these platforms. To quote 1:15:41.080 --> 1:15:45.960 from Calsh's CNN Partnership announcement quote, cal she has become 1:15:46.000 --> 1:15:48.559 the definitive source for staying informed about the future and 1:15:48.680 --> 1:15:52.000 is used by reporters, politicians, pundits, Wall Street and Main 1:15:52.080 --> 1:15:54.960 Street get recently called the New York City mayoral election 1:15:55.120 --> 1:15:59.040 eight minutes after polls closed, hours before the media. It's 1:15:59.080 --> 1:16:02.599 because of this accuracy that calci's data will serve as 1:16:02.640 --> 1:16:07.280 a powerful compliment to CNN's reporting. Journalists can more easily 1:16:07.320 --> 1:16:10.360 surface credible information to their audiences about the real time 1:16:10.400 --> 1:16:16.080 probabilities of future cultural and political events unquote. In practice, 1:16:16.200 --> 1:16:21.840 this reporting mixes gambling data and actually reputable or credible 1:16:21.920 --> 1:16:27.080 pulls in a confusing way, like this recent CNN segment 1:16:27.120 --> 1:16:30.880 which cites CALCI odds on whether Trump will send tariff 1:16:30.920 --> 1:16:35.519 stimulus checks as well as CBS you gov polling data 1:16:35.880 --> 1:16:39.160 on if tarif's lower prices back to back in the 1:16:39.280 --> 1:16:41.559 same segment, do they. 1:16:41.439 --> 1:16:44.639 Think that the tariffs that these rebate checks are actually coming? 1:16:44.840 --> 1:16:45.679 And at this point. 1:16:46.000 --> 1:16:50.320 No, No, I mean chance Trump tariff, the tariff stimulus 1:16:50.400 --> 1:16:54.160 checks are sent to Americans by August of twenty twenty six. 1:16:54.280 --> 1:16:56.599 It's a twenty five percent chance. That's one in four. 1:16:56.960 --> 1:17:00.320 So that's not nothing. But the American people right now 1:17:00.439 --> 1:17:04.120 are craving, craving some relief, and at this point it 1:17:04.200 --> 1:17:06.720 doesn't look like it is coming. Although I will note 1:17:06.760 --> 1:17:10.240 John Berman, this twenty five percent, it is greater than 1:17:10.280 --> 1:17:13.920 this six percent who say that tars decrease prices, or 1:17:13.920 --> 1:17:16.200 that five percent back in March, which are just you 1:17:16.280 --> 1:17:19.679 never see one, two, three, four, five percent. So look, 1:17:19.960 --> 1:17:22.960 twenty five percent ain't nothing, but at this point it's low. 1:17:23.040 --> 1:17:25.240 Yeah, it's interesting the prediction markets think they only one 1:17:25.280 --> 1:17:27.000 in four chance that will actually happen. 1:17:27.040 --> 1:17:31.720 There is this really what the future of political forecasting 1:17:31.800 --> 1:17:36.120 is going to be? Maybe, maybe not, but there are 1:17:36.280 --> 1:17:41.599 four horsemen of this political gambling apocalypse. Nate Silver via 1:17:41.640 --> 1:17:45.080 his gamification of election predictions based on his time as 1:17:45.080 --> 1:17:49.160 a professional gambler. Sports betting, especially since the Supreme Court 1:17:49.200 --> 1:17:52.160 struck down a federal law banning sports betting outside of 1:17:52.200 --> 1:17:56.400 Nevada in twenty eighteen, resulting in almost forty states subsequently 1:17:56.479 --> 1:17:59.840 legalizing some form of sports betting, which has facilitated because 1:18:00.280 --> 1:18:02.519 of gambling to grow dramatically across the country in the 1:18:02.560 --> 1:18:06.080 past ten years through the spread of online sports betting apps. 1:18:06.760 --> 1:18:10.599 The third horseman is Trump for the Trump administration through 1:18:10.720 --> 1:18:15.920 their removal of regulatory hurdles facing prediction markets. And finally 1:18:16.120 --> 1:18:20.240 that CNN guy Harry Enton, a Nate Silver protege who 1:18:20.280 --> 1:18:23.719 trailblazed the use of political gambling data in news stories 1:18:23.800 --> 1:18:28.880 the past year. These four horsemen, Nate Silver, sports betting, Trump, 1:18:28.960 --> 1:18:33.320 and Harry Enton have created the cultural and political conditions 1:18:33.360 --> 1:18:38.080 for political gambling to spread. Like wildfire, which, hey, is 1:18:38.160 --> 1:18:41.759 also something you can bet on. During the LA Fires 1:18:42.120 --> 1:18:45.519 prediction market, users could bet on how many acres would burn. 1:18:46.600 --> 1:18:50.320 So what is the endgame of this, this gambling apocalypse 1:18:50.320 --> 1:18:52.919 that seems to be inching its way closer and closer 1:18:53.640 --> 1:18:57.000 To answer that, Here's a clip from Calshi co founder 1:18:57.040 --> 1:18:59.000 and CEO Derek Manser. 1:19:00.160 --> 1:19:03.120 Long term vision is to financialize everything and create a 1:19:03.160 --> 1:19:05.599 tradable asset out of any difference in opinion. We are 1:19:05.640 --> 1:19:08.240 living in a word where like we have an abundance 1:19:08.240 --> 1:19:10.080 of information, but there's a lot of noise, and like 1:19:10.320 --> 1:19:12.280 we don't really understand what's real from what's not. Our 1:19:12.320 --> 1:19:14.519 prediction markets are an antidote to that. They do a 1:19:14.600 --> 1:19:18.240 very very good job at distilling information and surfacing truth 1:19:18.280 --> 1:19:20.120 to people. And you're seeing the sort of massive shift 1:19:20.200 --> 1:19:23.000 where like people are using them whenever they think about 1:19:23.080 --> 1:19:25.920 questions about the future, you know, whenever they're debating about anything. 1:19:26.320 --> 1:19:28.040 And I think that trajectory is going to keep going. 1:19:28.160 --> 1:19:29.840 That's a new consumer habit that I don't think is 1:19:29.840 --> 1:19:30.639 going to be undone. 1:19:31.560 --> 1:19:36.080 This is the demon child of crypto and sports betting, 1:19:36.400 --> 1:19:40.559 this financialization of everything to form a tradable asset out 1:19:40.560 --> 1:19:45.440 of any difference in opinion, creating new addictive consumer habits. 1:19:45.960 --> 1:19:49.559 These companies want to apply the logic of smartphone sports 1:19:49.560 --> 1:19:54.400 betting to everything, where everyone gets to be their own 1:19:54.439 --> 1:19:58.599 little Nate Silver while carrying around their own digital casino 1:19:58.680 --> 1:20:02.519 in their pocket, getting addicted to gambling on speculation of 1:20:02.640 --> 1:20:06.960 world suffering. And CNN is complicit in this. CNN and 1:20:07.040 --> 1:20:10.640 others have decided to partner with platforms that enable the 1:20:10.680 --> 1:20:12.840 people who decide when to drop bombs around the world 1:20:12.880 --> 1:20:16.240 to win millions of dollars by betting money on the 1:20:16.360 --> 1:20:20.240 choices they themselves are making at the expense of the 1:20:20.280 --> 1:20:23.400 rest of the world, and these companies think this is 1:20:23.479 --> 1:20:27.040 a good thing because the betting odds can serve as 1:20:27.040 --> 1:20:30.400 a potential heads up that something is likely to happen. 1:20:31.280 --> 1:20:35.400 Simple consumer protections for users, which currently are non existent, 1:20:35.800 --> 1:20:39.519 are just not enough. Congress needs to be far more 1:20:39.560 --> 1:20:43.080 involved in regulating online betting, and in the case of 1:20:43.120 --> 1:20:47.240 political events, it should just be completely banned. It is 1:20:47.320 --> 1:20:51.800 detrimental to a healthy society. It incentivizes corruption, cruelty, and 1:20:51.880 --> 1:20:56.200 erodes public trust. Gambling doesn't need to go away entirely, 1:20:56.439 --> 1:20:59.479 but it should return to being time and location locked. 1:20:59.840 --> 1:21:04.280 Go to Las Vegas like a fucking adult. Currently, there 1:21:04.400 --> 1:21:10.639 is no existing mechanism for individual states to regulate prediction markets. 1:21:11.400 --> 1:21:15.960 Only the federal government can, and Trump's federal government certainly 1:21:16.000 --> 1:21:19.679 seems like it's not going to considering the President's Sun 1:21:19.920 --> 1:21:24.559 works for both of the main platforms, Klshi and poly market, 1:21:25.320 --> 1:21:29.439 and while news companies are legitimizing this, these platforms are 1:21:29.479 --> 1:21:34.400 now working as their own news aggregators, specifically Polymarket's social 1:21:34.439 --> 1:21:38.000 media account, which is acting as a news aggregation account. 1:21:38.520 --> 1:21:41.360 Because that drives traffic back to their website, where people 1:21:41.360 --> 1:21:44.400 can bet on the news stories that poly market is sharing, 1:21:44.840 --> 1:21:48.960 even if those news stories are speculative or completely made up. 1:21:49.840 --> 1:21:54.760 On December fifth, Polymarket posted quote just in suspected J. 1:21:55.000 --> 1:21:58.280 Six pipe Bomber's legal council projected to argue he was 1:21:58.320 --> 1:22:03.680 included in Trump's pardon of those involved in January sixth unquote. 1:22:03.720 --> 1:22:07.639 This claim subsequently spread all around the Internet, parroted by 1:22:07.680 --> 1:22:11.640 people of a variety of political orientations. But if you 1:22:11.760 --> 1:22:16.360 read closely, the original post says suspected J six Pipe 1:22:16.360 --> 1:22:22.160 Bomber's legal council projected to argue he was included in 1:22:22.240 --> 1:22:27.240 Trump's pardon, polymarket is just spreading gambling information as if 1:22:27.280 --> 1:22:31.720 it is news content. Quote unquote. Projected just means that 1:22:31.800 --> 1:22:36.719 polymarket users are betting on this, But these projected posts 1:22:36.800 --> 1:22:40.439 are mixed in with other posts just aggregating the day's news. 1:22:41.320 --> 1:22:44.840 So unless you are paying super close attention, which rarely 1:22:44.880 --> 1:22:48.280 people on the Internet are, this becomes a trojan horse 1:22:48.479 --> 1:22:53.320 of disinformation. When news companies use the term projected on 1:22:53.400 --> 1:22:58.960 election night, usually that indicates with pretty clear mathematical certainty 1:22:59.000 --> 1:23:02.800 that an event is going to happen. When Polymarket uses 1:23:02.920 --> 1:23:08.000 projected in news tweets, It only indicates that Internet gamblers 1:23:08.360 --> 1:23:11.360 are swinging around money in an effort to create truth 1:23:12.120 --> 1:23:16.320 with once legitimate news companies not just complicit but active 1:23:16.360 --> 1:23:21.320 participants in this process. That doesn't for us today at 1:23:21.400 --> 1:23:36.080 it could happen here. See you on the other side. 1:23:37.080 --> 1:23:41.800 Hello, and welcome to Achnapan Here. I'm Andrew's age also 1:23:41.800 --> 1:23:49.599 known as Andreism, and I'm joined once again by That's. 1:23:49.439 --> 1:23:54.880 A q mea Wong girl who was really really the 1:23:54.920 --> 1:23:57.280 first time was like I Am not going to miss 1:23:57.280 --> 1:24:00.800 my cue this time, and then this time I was like, oh, 1:24:00.840 --> 1:24:02.639 I'm waiting for the queue, and then it was like shit, 1:24:02.760 --> 1:24:05.599 that's the cue. And it took my brain like several 1:24:05.640 --> 1:24:09.519 seconds to be like, oh no, it would be very 1:24:09.520 --> 1:24:11.840 funny if the editors just edited out the pause so 1:24:11.840 --> 1:24:14.040 everyone has no idea what I'm talking about. 1:24:14.800 --> 1:24:19.840 That's that would be hilarious actually, But there was unaware 1:24:20.000 --> 1:24:23.000 that was like a ten second pause before me I 1:24:23.040 --> 1:24:23.479 came in. 1:24:24.439 --> 1:24:28.960 No really truly, this is mia on like three hours 1:24:28.960 --> 1:24:33.040 of sleep brain. I was like, oh, yeah, right, the 1:24:33.120 --> 1:24:36.000 cue is going to come. But then it things going 1:24:36.040 --> 1:24:39.120 great for BeO Loong, the other person who's on the show. 1:24:39.960 --> 1:24:42.320 You know who I am statistically if you're listening to 1:24:42.320 --> 1:24:44.679 the show who, of course? 1:24:46.000 --> 1:24:49.040 I mean speaking of seconds. By the way, in those 1:24:49.080 --> 1:24:53.720 ten seconds that you were waiting for your queue that 1:24:53.800 --> 1:24:58.800 had already passed, hundreds of people were born, you know, 1:24:58.880 --> 1:25:04.240 every second where someone is being born. Like other animals, 1:25:04.320 --> 1:25:09.640 humans have this tendency to multiply. But should they That 1:25:09.760 --> 1:25:12.320 is the question of the day. This is the last 1:25:12.360 --> 1:25:16.800 episode I was on. We spoke about the worries surrounding populasia. 1:25:16.920 --> 1:25:19.280 You know, whether we have too many people or too 1:25:19.320 --> 1:25:22.840 few people. But the question of making people or not 1:25:23.040 --> 1:25:27.000 making them has been the subject of a few ideological classes. 1:25:27.960 --> 1:25:30.719 There's a whole movement of thinkers who argue that bringing 1:25:31.040 --> 1:25:34.400 new life into the world is a big mistake. These 1:25:34.439 --> 1:25:38.200 are the anti natilists. And on the other side you 1:25:38.280 --> 1:25:42.920 have those who say that having children is good and essential. 1:25:43.080 --> 1:25:46.559 That's the pro natalist camp. So in this episode will 1:25:46.600 --> 1:25:50.120 be getting into that tug of war philosophically and weighing 1:25:50.160 --> 1:25:52.559 the issues with both. Because I'm not going to make 1:25:52.600 --> 1:25:55.640 it a secret, I'm not a fan of either of them. 1:25:55.880 --> 1:25:57.320 I don't know how do you feel. 1:25:57.120 --> 1:25:59.800 About Yeah, this is the one good Stalin quote. They're 1:25:59.800 --> 1:26:05.800 both worse, So we have to pick among those twos. 1:26:05.880 --> 1:26:08.000 Let's start with the anti natilists. 1:26:08.880 --> 1:26:11.479 I don't what's the kind of gut reaction or impression 1:26:11.560 --> 1:26:14.480 you get from those those folks. 1:26:15.120 --> 1:26:15.519 I don't know. 1:26:15.560 --> 1:26:19.640 I think there's a combination of stuff that's largely harmless 1:26:20.240 --> 1:26:25.040 and sometimes is funny. Like you get protested people pulling 1:26:25.120 --> 1:26:26.680 up signs that are like I didn't ask to be 1:26:26.760 --> 1:26:29.200 born or didn't consent to be born. It's like, sure, 1:26:29.640 --> 1:26:32.120 but then then there's also people just doing masshootings about it. 1:26:32.160 --> 1:26:34.600 So it's great, it's it's a good time. It's a 1:26:34.680 --> 1:26:36.240 very normal time for politics. 1:26:37.280 --> 1:26:42.240 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean when I think of them, 1:26:42.280 --> 1:26:45.880 I tend to think cringe and Reddit. But they actually 1:26:45.920 --> 1:26:50.800 have a philosophy outside of Reddit forums. So, according to 1:26:50.840 --> 1:26:54.800 the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, anti natilism is the view 1:26:54.840 --> 1:27:01.080 that it is either always or usually morally impermissible to Brookery. Now, 1:27:01.160 --> 1:27:03.120 most of us grew up with the idea that life 1:27:03.240 --> 1:27:07.599 is inherently valuable, right, but anti natilists disagree. They see 1:27:07.640 --> 1:27:11.000 life as a bruden rather than a gift. Very edgy, 1:27:11.640 --> 1:27:14.280 very read it but you know, it's something that has 1:27:14.320 --> 1:27:18.160 been around since before the Internet. While not himself an 1:27:18.200 --> 1:27:23.000 anti natalist, the German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer, who lived in 1:27:23.000 --> 1:27:26.400 the nineteenth century, is taught by some anti natalists as 1:27:26.400 --> 1:27:30.760 a contributor to their philosophical foundations. In his descriptions of 1:27:30.800 --> 1:27:36.599 life as constant, striving, frustration and pain. In the twentieth century, 1:27:36.800 --> 1:27:42.240 the Romanian writer Emil Choran argued that non existence is 1:27:42.280 --> 1:27:47.360 the ultimate form of peace. His philosophical pessimism regarded individual 1:27:47.400 --> 1:27:50.439 life and human history as a whole as a record 1:27:50.600 --> 1:27:55.960 of error, illusion and futility, and most famously, South African 1:27:55.960 --> 1:27:59.360 philosopher David Bennetta laid out one of the main anti 1:27:59.439 --> 1:28:03.080 natilists are in his book Better Never to Have been 1:28:03.640 --> 1:28:07.240 the harm of coming into existence. It's a bang a siteo. 1:28:07.280 --> 1:28:12.360 Though now you can find theoretical contributions to anti natilists 1:28:12.400 --> 1:28:16.679 thought in Buddhism's idea that life is suffering or incidant 1:28:16.720 --> 1:28:20.960 interpretations of it rather or incident gnostic traditions that sow 1:28:20.960 --> 1:28:25.479 the material world itself as a kind of cosmic mistake. Now, 1:28:25.479 --> 1:28:27.800 there are a lot of reasons that anti natilists put 1:28:27.840 --> 1:28:32.080 forward for their stance. There are philanthropic and misanthropic arguments 1:28:32.080 --> 1:28:35.840 of antinautilism. You know, the philanthropic ones focus on harm 1:28:35.880 --> 1:28:38.960 to the individual who is brought into existence, while the 1:28:39.120 --> 1:28:41.800 misanthropic arguments tend to focus on the harm that new 1:28:41.800 --> 1:28:45.599 people cause to the will. So there's the consent argument 1:28:45.720 --> 1:28:48.240 that Mia would have mentioned. You know, basically a child 1:28:48.240 --> 1:28:51.080 that cannot consent to be inborn, so by creating them, 1:28:51.120 --> 1:28:53.680 you're forcing them into life. They didn't ask for a 1:28:53.800 --> 1:28:58.400 life that will inevitably include suffering. Another argument is in 1:28:58.479 --> 1:29:01.800 that sort of negative utilityanism camp. It's the idea that 1:29:01.880 --> 1:29:06.880 our moral priority should be reducing suffering, not increase in happiness. 1:29:07.400 --> 1:29:11.200 In fact, they don't see the potential or actuality of 1:29:11.240 --> 1:29:15.400 pleasure as an offset to suffering at all. You know, 1:29:15.600 --> 1:29:19.240 under their view, even a single unit of suffering is unacceptable, 1:29:19.560 --> 1:29:23.439 and since every new life will include suffering, not creating 1:29:23.520 --> 1:29:26.759 life is the surest way to reduce it. If Benetta 1:29:26.960 --> 1:29:30.960 had the famous asymmetry argument, which is that the presence 1:29:31.000 --> 1:29:33.840 of pain is bad, the presence of pleasure is good, 1:29:34.200 --> 1:29:37.160 but the absence of pain is always good. Even if 1:29:37.200 --> 1:29:40.439 no one appreciates that good and the absence of pleasure 1:29:40.680 --> 1:29:44.719 isn't bad unless there's someone missing out. So put simply, 1:29:44.760 --> 1:29:48.040 according to the argument, by not having a child, you 1:29:48.160 --> 1:29:53.799 avoid guaranteed suffering without depriving any person of joy because 1:29:53.840 --> 1:29:58.320 that person doesn't exist. So that equation is probably one 1:29:58.320 --> 1:30:00.040 of the main pillars i'd say of the ant i 1:30:00.120 --> 1:30:13.120 need lists as a movement. You know, you might be 1:30:13.160 --> 1:30:16.800 thinking to yourself, Oh, but I'm glad to be alive. No, 1:30:16.880 --> 1:30:22.280 you're not. According according to Bennetta and the anti natalists, 1:30:23.040 --> 1:30:24.439 you're deluded to think. 1:30:24.520 --> 1:30:24.600 So. 1:30:24.960 --> 1:30:32.080 The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy calls it the deluded gladness argument. Basically, 1:30:32.240 --> 1:30:36.320 your positive view of your own life is unreliable. Better 1:30:36.560 --> 1:30:40.200 argues that we have cognitive biases like optimism and selective 1:30:40.240 --> 1:30:44.200 memory and so on, which distort how viciously we assess 1:30:44.240 --> 1:30:47.640 our own suffering. So many good life reports, even if 1:30:47.680 --> 1:30:49.679 you think you have a good life or a decent life, 1:30:50.120 --> 1:30:53.080 you're deceiving yourself, according to him, Do you think people 1:30:53.120 --> 1:30:55.920 are deceiving themselves when they say that they enjoy their lives? 1:30:56.920 --> 1:31:02.960 You know, this entire line of argument is just making 1:31:03.040 --> 1:31:05.360 me be like, you need to do less philosophy and 1:31:05.439 --> 1:31:09.719 like go outside and live. Like it's just. 1:31:09.600 --> 1:31:11.559 Like, yeah, I mean I get the whole thing about 1:31:11.640 --> 1:31:14.680 you know, all mental bias towards optimism and that kind 1:31:14.680 --> 1:31:19.280 of thing, but that doesn't invalidate the joy of people 1:31:19.560 --> 1:31:20.639 appreciating their life. 1:31:21.240 --> 1:31:25.160 Yeah, it's like this. This sounds like the exact script 1:31:25.240 --> 1:31:30.200 you get in your head when you're really depressed. It's like, okay, 1:31:30.320 --> 1:31:34.880 like have you considered getting your depression managed and getting 1:31:34.880 --> 1:31:38.840 help for it instead of like doing philosophy about it. 1:31:39.439 --> 1:31:41.480 I feel like you would be an antenatilist. 1:31:41.920 --> 1:31:44.640 Oh you're yeah. 1:31:45.040 --> 1:31:46.960 Another thing murders well. 1:31:46.960 --> 1:31:51.000 And it's also frustrating because it's like the most compelling 1:31:51.360 --> 1:31:55.920 version of this argument is about like this world right 1:31:55.960 --> 1:31:59.719 now is absolutely dog shit and I can't justify bringing 1:31:59.760 --> 1:32:04.040 someone into it. But that's like too grounded. It's all 1:32:04.080 --> 1:32:06.280 these people are like, no, no, no, no, Actually, here's like 1:32:06.320 --> 1:32:09.439 this philosophy that proves that that life bad. 1:32:09.600 --> 1:32:14.400 And it's like, uh, I mean there are antonielists arguments 1:32:14.400 --> 1:32:17.720 that do get into that more grounded Oh yeah, definitely, yeah, 1:32:17.760 --> 1:32:21.840 thing you know that they have one argument about multiplying suffering, right, 1:32:21.880 --> 1:32:23.880 because every child you bring into the bull is in 1:32:24.120 --> 1:32:26.840 just one pouson. You know, they have the potential to 1:32:26.880 --> 1:32:30.360 have truer themselves and grandchildren and so on, multiplying the 1:32:30.439 --> 1:32:34.240 chances of pain, disease, loss suffering down the generations. 1:32:34.400 --> 1:32:36.880 It's like, this is like long termism. Shit, it's just 1:32:36.920 --> 1:32:40.320 like instead of like actually analyzing the world, we're going 1:32:40.360 --> 1:32:46.200 to build unbelievably complicated and completely meaningless, like abstract models 1:32:46.240 --> 1:32:50.479 of it and try to base our things off of that. 1:32:51.160 --> 1:32:51.360 Yeah. 1:32:51.439 --> 1:32:54.360 Yeah, I mean it's it's destally ridiculous. Now I understand. 1:32:54.439 --> 1:32:56.640 You know, our truck record isn't the best. You know, 1:32:56.680 --> 1:32:59.960 they have their plagues and slavery and genocide, environmental the strut, 1:33:01.280 --> 1:33:03.519 and some of them say, well that's the best thing. 1:33:03.640 --> 1:33:06.679 The best thing we could do is to voluntarily go extinct, 1:33:06.800 --> 1:33:08.519 you know, to step off the stage of the earth. 1:33:09.280 --> 1:33:12.240 And that connects with the general misanthropy, and I think 1:33:12.280 --> 1:33:15.439 the misanthropic argument that humans are some kind of blight 1:33:16.040 --> 1:33:19.880 on the world. Yeah, and they're antilists who take it 1:33:19.880 --> 1:33:22.760 a step further as well, And they're not just antilists 1:33:22.800 --> 1:33:26.720 for humans, they're universal antiists. So they believe that not 1:33:26.800 --> 1:33:31.439 just human births are problematic, but existence itself. Sentient beings 1:33:31.520 --> 1:33:34.760 across the board, human or animal are better off never 1:33:34.880 --> 1:33:36.400 being brought into life at all. 1:33:37.360 --> 1:33:40.519 Really, truly, at this point, brother, this is a you problem. 1:33:41.320 --> 1:33:45.240 You just don't like existing, Like we can work on that. 1:33:45.360 --> 1:33:49.320 But this is not a philosophical thake, like you're just depressed, Like, 1:33:49.400 --> 1:33:51.320 come on, what are we doing here? 1:33:52.240 --> 1:33:52.439 Yeah? 1:33:52.479 --> 1:33:55.720 I mean, antonism is making some very heavy claims and 1:33:55.720 --> 1:33:58.200 they're obviously going to be coming to arguments because people 1:33:58.240 --> 1:34:00.360 are going to roll over with the kind of as 1:34:00.400 --> 1:34:04.200 solutions that it makes. The most intuitive anser I would 1:34:04.200 --> 1:34:08.439 give is that yes, life involves suffering, but it also 1:34:08.479 --> 1:34:12.960 includes pleasure and joy and creativity and achievements, and for 1:34:13.160 --> 1:34:17.720 most people, those positives outweigh the negatives. And if you're 1:34:17.720 --> 1:34:20.880 a radical, you recognize that some of the negatives of 1:34:21.000 --> 1:34:25.919 life are not inevitable. The famines, the wars, the suffering, 1:34:25.960 --> 1:34:29.160 the poverty, it's not inevitable. It's a product of economic 1:34:29.160 --> 1:34:32.160 and political systems that we have the power to change. 1:34:32.680 --> 1:34:35.799 And yes, there will always be suffering. They may always 1:34:35.800 --> 1:34:40.320 be some diseases, there will always be death, right, but 1:34:40.680 --> 1:34:44.360 that doesn't mean that existence is worse than non existence. 1:34:45.000 --> 1:34:47.679 I'm glad to exist me, I feel like you're probably 1:34:47.720 --> 1:34:49.720 glad to exist. I'm glad you. 1:34:49.720 --> 1:34:53.880 Exist, yeah, most of the time. Like this is a 1:34:53.880 --> 1:34:57.120 distinct improvement for positions I have been in. But like, yeah, 1:34:57.320 --> 1:35:01.360 it's nice. Yes, you know, like even even in the 1:35:01.400 --> 1:35:04.599 middle of like the hell world, it's nice. 1:35:04.920 --> 1:35:10.360 Yeah, And yeah, the biases may skew our perspective, but 1:35:10.560 --> 1:35:13.960 the fact that we overwhelmingly choose life itself is a 1:35:14.000 --> 1:35:17.360 reason too not throw it out, you know, whis people 1:35:17.400 --> 1:35:19.479 are given the choice do you want to live right now? 1:35:19.520 --> 1:35:21.880 And I mostly people want to say they're going to live, 1:35:22.439 --> 1:35:26.320 you know. Yeah, and yes, we don't consent to be inborn, 1:35:27.160 --> 1:35:28.920 but there are other things that we don't consent to 1:35:29.000 --> 1:35:32.080 that we still benefit from. You know, in funds, don't 1:35:32.240 --> 1:35:36.800 consent to be vaccinated, but it's it's something that benefits them, 1:35:36.920 --> 1:35:41.679 you know. We educate in funds, we restrain them from danger. 1:35:41.800 --> 1:35:44.320 We don't ask their permission necessarily to do these things, 1:35:44.360 --> 1:35:47.599 but it's just for their well being, for their benefit. 1:35:47.920 --> 1:35:50.360 And I don't think while consent is an important factor 1:35:50.800 --> 1:35:52.880 in the way that we engage as others, I don't 1:35:52.880 --> 1:35:56.600 think consent is the only factor for a framework of 1:35:56.640 --> 1:36:00.560 determining what is moral and immoral. You know, you can't 1:36:01.200 --> 1:36:05.200 use consent to determine whether it's moral or not to exist. 1:36:05.880 --> 1:36:09.280 I don't feel like those two pieces mashed together very well. 1:36:10.080 --> 1:36:10.400 Yeah. 1:36:10.479 --> 1:36:12.880 Well, and also I think like there are so many 1:36:12.920 --> 1:36:15.920 other things that we didn't consent to, you know, like 1:36:16.200 --> 1:36:17.360 this is another thing that's talking. It is like we 1:36:17.400 --> 1:36:20.880 never consented to die. On a less metaphysical level, I 1:36:20.920 --> 1:36:24.040 don't know, like I didn't consent to like to live 1:36:24.200 --> 1:36:28.400 under this state, yeah, where you know they're like doing 1:36:28.479 --> 1:36:32.280 helicopter raids on apartment buildings and like dragging naked children 1:36:32.360 --> 1:36:34.280 screaming away from their parents in the middle of the night, 1:36:34.360 --> 1:36:37.280 Like you know that, And that's a thing that you 1:36:37.360 --> 1:36:41.000 can actually actively do something about that you didn't consent to. 1:36:41.080 --> 1:36:43.400 That is actively harming you and everyone else around you 1:36:43.960 --> 1:36:48.400 versus like being born and making that the thing that 1:36:48.479 --> 1:36:51.320 you're doing is like okay, like we didn't get to 1:36:51.320 --> 1:36:53.040 live in or capitalism. We didn't we didn't get sent 1:36:53.080 --> 1:36:55.160 to colonialism, Like we didn't geet to any of the shit, 1:36:55.400 --> 1:36:58.880 and that's something you could, you know, make not happen 1:36:59.400 --> 1:37:02.840 versus you being born, which there is nothing you can 1:37:02.880 --> 1:37:05.120 do to change the fact that you were born. And 1:37:05.160 --> 1:37:07.280 it's like, oh, well, focus the next generation. Yeah, you 1:37:07.280 --> 1:37:10.360 want you want to focus on like reducing the amount 1:37:10.400 --> 1:37:12.599 of suffering the next generation will create in the world. 1:37:12.720 --> 1:37:14.879 Have you considered like climate change? 1:37:15.160 --> 1:37:20.800 Yeah? Yeah, I also think that on a broader level, right, 1:37:21.360 --> 1:37:23.160 I think it's good to be questioned some of the 1:37:23.200 --> 1:37:27.240 intuitions that we may have, you know, even if they're 1:37:27.240 --> 1:37:30.080 our deepest moral intuitions. I think it's good to maybe 1:37:30.880 --> 1:37:34.479 consider them or to be thoughtful about them. But also, 1:37:34.680 --> 1:37:39.479 as the incent Encyclopedia of Philosophy argues, if a theory 1:37:39.560 --> 1:37:42.360 implies that the creation of all human life is a 1:37:42.400 --> 1:37:47.559 moral mistake, that conclusion itself might be reason to doubt 1:37:47.600 --> 1:37:53.479 the theory. This is something called the repugnant conclusion objection. 1:37:54.280 --> 1:37:57.960 I mean, because it's it's repugnant. It's intuitively repugnant to 1:37:58.040 --> 1:38:01.559 most people to hear that existence is a mistake. Nobody 1:38:01.560 --> 1:38:02.240 should be alive. 1:38:02.920 --> 1:38:03.160 Yeah. 1:38:03.200 --> 1:38:05.720 I was like, well, no, absolutely not. 1:38:07.680 --> 1:38:10.080 Get your shit worked out exactly. 1:38:10.720 --> 1:38:12.479 Betray to logic here, not great. 1:38:12.600 --> 1:38:14.680 Like you were saying, Yeah, there'll be a lot of 1:38:14.680 --> 1:38:18.080 things in the world that suck right now that cause suffering, 1:38:18.600 --> 1:38:21.400 and there's a lot of present joy is alongside that 1:38:21.439 --> 1:38:24.559 present suffering. But there's also the value to be had 1:38:24.680 --> 1:38:30.320 in that potential joy. You know, the potential possibilities have value. 1:38:30.360 --> 1:38:35.360 If potential suffering has value, potential joys should also have value. 1:38:35.680 --> 1:38:39.120 The potential of creating a batter world, each new child 1:38:39.280 --> 1:38:45.480 bringing the potential for greater love, for incredible arts and crafts, 1:38:45.720 --> 1:38:48.840 for scientific breakthrough, is for reshaping the world in a 1:38:48.880 --> 1:38:53.280 positive direction. You know, the potential for the unique goods 1:38:53.360 --> 1:38:57.640 that each individual life can bring, I believe justifies the 1:38:57.760 --> 1:39:01.040 risk of suffering because the world without those future goods 1:39:01.400 --> 1:39:07.639 would be worse than a world with them. And yes, 1:39:07.840 --> 1:39:10.680 humanity can cause harm. Where we are also capable of 1:39:10.720 --> 1:39:15.000 extraordinary good we can change, we can reduce suffering over time, 1:39:15.080 --> 1:39:17.160 new generations are going to be part of that solution, 1:39:18.120 --> 1:39:21.920 I will say, though two anti nationalists credit. One of 1:39:21.960 --> 1:39:26.040 the points of the Internet and Psychlopedia of Philosophy points 1:39:26.040 --> 1:39:29.520 out is that the debate of what anti natialism is theoretical. 1:39:29.680 --> 1:39:35.519 You know, this is stuffy philosophers sitting around exchanging notes 1:39:35.600 --> 1:39:39.120 and writing books. Right, Most of its advocates are not 1:39:39.200 --> 1:39:44.439 actually putting forward policies that are restricting people's ability to 1:39:44.520 --> 1:39:47.439 create life. But the same cannot be said for the 1:39:47.560 --> 1:40:02.200 other side of the coin, the pro natalists. Yep. So, 1:40:02.280 --> 1:40:06.280 in broad terms, pronatalism or just natalism is the belief 1:40:06.280 --> 1:40:09.799 that reproduction is a societal good or even the society 1:40:09.920 --> 1:40:14.000 needs more children. This movement is getting louder and louder 1:40:14.040 --> 1:40:17.439 these days. It's shaping policy debates in the US, in Europe, 1:40:17.479 --> 1:40:19.840 in Asia and beyond, because, as I mentioned in the 1:40:19.880 --> 1:40:25.000 previous episode, fertility rates are falling almost everywhere. Countries like 1:40:25.120 --> 1:40:27.679 South Korea, Italy, Japan, and the US are seeing fewer 1:40:27.680 --> 1:40:30.920 booths than needed to sustain their current populations. So you're 1:40:30.920 --> 1:40:33.920 going to be seeing pronatalism in various forms, shown up 1:40:33.960 --> 1:40:37.679 in politics and even in tech circles, especially in those 1:40:37.720 --> 1:40:42.760 ways texicles. Now, pronatalism is a broad umbrella. You know, 1:40:42.920 --> 1:40:46.840 you can have the mild position of supporting families with policies, 1:40:47.439 --> 1:40:49.760 and most people are not opposed to that, but you 1:40:49.840 --> 1:40:53.719 also have the strong pronatalist stands which is actually urging 1:40:53.960 --> 1:40:59.920 or incentivizing or mandating both for cultural, economic, or ideological reasons. 1:41:00.880 --> 1:41:04.880 Pronatalism was motivated by a few different reasons. You know, 1:41:04.880 --> 1:41:08.040 there's the economic anxiety of a shrink in population meaning 1:41:08.120 --> 1:41:12.439 fewer workers, more retirees, and strained pension systems. There's a 1:41:12.560 --> 1:41:17.600 nationalistic argument of worries about cultural continuity which tend to 1:41:17.680 --> 1:41:23.400 tita into the reactionary directions, and the pronatalism today is 1:41:23.600 --> 1:41:26.760 very much political as a result. In the US, Republicans 1:41:26.800 --> 1:41:29.760 have been leaning into it, framing the low booth rates 1:41:29.760 --> 1:41:33.240 as a national crisis. And in Europe you have countries 1:41:33.320 --> 1:41:37.120 like Hungary under Victor Auburn which have made pronatalism a 1:41:37.240 --> 1:41:41.840 signature policy. It's very in effectiveness. The religious motivations of 1:41:41.840 --> 1:41:44.360 pronatalism are also pretty interesting. You know, you have the 1:41:44.600 --> 1:41:49.479 being fruitful and multiply directive in the Bible, which some 1:41:49.680 --> 1:41:52.760 take as far as the quiver full movement, which is 1:41:52.760 --> 1:41:56.240 the whole thing about having children by like the dozen 1:41:56.320 --> 1:41:56.759 no more. 1:41:57.360 --> 1:41:58.120 Yeah. 1:41:58.200 --> 1:42:01.439 Then you have the tech elite circles pronatalism because it 1:42:01.479 --> 1:42:04.760 connected with the ideas of human progress. One of the 1:42:04.840 --> 1:42:10.240 prontalists who most famously practices what he preaches mostly for 1:42:10.360 --> 1:42:14.960 worse is he on Musk. Yep, right, he's He's a 1:42:14.960 --> 1:42:18.639 big Nazi about it. For one, because of us, we'll 1:42:18.640 --> 1:42:21.519 worry about white facility rates but he also thinks that 1:42:21.600 --> 1:42:24.360 globoth rates as a whole or a bigger threat than 1:42:24.439 --> 1:42:28.000 climate change. So I mean it seems like he's single 1:42:28.000 --> 1:42:32.960 handedly trying to fix that with his seed is spreading. Yeah, 1:42:33.920 --> 1:42:37.679 is his assembly line of children with the accompanying product 1:42:37.720 --> 1:42:41.599 barcodes for names, And I just feel bad for them, honestly, 1:42:42.240 --> 1:42:43.360 to have that as a father. 1:42:44.320 --> 1:42:47.400 No, it sucks. Yeah, it's not great. 1:42:47.560 --> 1:42:48.280 It's not good. 1:42:48.760 --> 1:42:51.519 And so he and his billionairem bodies of the belief 1:42:51.560 --> 1:42:54.599 that civilization will collapse if we don't make more babies. 1:42:55.360 --> 1:42:59.080 Silicon Valley circles a fund in pronatalist think tanks and 1:42:59.240 --> 1:43:04.200 embryo optimization projects. A lot of policies are also coming 1:43:04.240 --> 1:43:08.440 out of the pronates list camp. Unlike the anti natalists historically, 1:43:08.479 --> 1:43:11.080 countries like the Soviet Union hand their off medals like 1:43:11.200 --> 1:43:14.639 Mother Heroine for women with large families, and the Russia 1:43:14.640 --> 1:43:18.760 of today has revived similar awards recently, alongside like I 1:43:18.840 --> 1:43:23.680 mentioned in the previous episode, banning anti natalist propaganda. Now 1:43:23.680 --> 1:43:27.360 some countries are offering tax incentives for booths and even 1:43:27.479 --> 1:43:31.719 proposing baby bonuses of thousands of dollars paid for each booth. 1:43:32.200 --> 1:43:34.360 Thousands of dollars per birth is kind of a spit 1:43:34.479 --> 1:43:36.559 in the face because that's not even going to last 1:43:36.600 --> 1:43:40.320 the first couple months of a child being born. Let's 1:43:40.360 --> 1:43:42.960 be real, children are extremely expensive. 1:43:43.240 --> 1:43:44.320 Yeah yeah. 1:43:44.960 --> 1:43:48.840 Proniceists also tend to push things like expanded family benefits, 1:43:49.720 --> 1:43:53.200 child allowances or holes and subsidies for pearents. These, I 1:43:53.200 --> 1:43:56.559 would say, are the more liberal minded or progressive minded 1:43:56.600 --> 1:43:58.919 pronac lists as much as you can be a progressive 1:43:58.960 --> 1:44:02.920 and a pronac list, because they actually considering the ways 1:44:02.920 --> 1:44:06.880 that they can make actually bearing children and raising children 1:44:06.880 --> 1:44:08.840 a bit easier for the people who have to do it. 1:44:09.520 --> 1:44:14.000 That sort of support also includes things like expanding IVF access, 1:44:14.439 --> 1:44:18.960 subsidized and fertility treatments, you know, improving embryo screening, that 1:44:19.000 --> 1:44:23.160 sort of thing. Places like Scandinavia also have generous leave policies, 1:44:23.240 --> 1:44:26.200 which are often cited as a model of soft pronatalism 1:44:26.600 --> 1:44:29.200 because it makes it easier for people to balance work 1:44:29.400 --> 1:44:32.080 and child. Are it. But you don't tend to hear 1:44:32.120 --> 1:44:38.360 these policies coming out of the much louder pronatalist conservative camp. Right, 1:44:38.400 --> 1:44:40.960 What do you get from them and from their pronatalism 1:44:41.040 --> 1:44:44.559 tends to be restrictions and women restrictions and abortion and 1:44:44.600 --> 1:44:48.200 body autonomy policies that conflict with the goals of reproductive 1:44:48.320 --> 1:44:52.320 justice and gender equality, sometimes putting women's health at risk. 1:44:53.000 --> 1:44:57.400 And also conservatives push lots of narrative with their pronatalism, 1:44:57.520 --> 1:45:01.360 large families, sense of valories. They frame childbearing as a 1:45:01.439 --> 1:45:04.719 civic duty. You know, they appeal to legacy and culture 1:45:04.760 --> 1:45:08.559 and identity when you get into that white supremacist camp, 1:45:09.160 --> 1:45:12.000 and you also get the whole eugenics of it, you know, 1:45:12.040 --> 1:45:15.760 the tech elite, praiselest wing. They're pushing for things like 1:45:15.880 --> 1:45:20.360 gene editing, embryo selection, and the sort of stuff that 1:45:20.520 --> 1:45:24.800 Musk is talking about with his racial replacement anxieties. In 1:45:24.840 --> 1:45:28.840 any case, the effectiveness of even the few positive policies 1:45:29.360 --> 1:45:33.840 has been pretty mixed. Countries have tried pumping billions into subsidies, 1:45:33.920 --> 1:45:38.760 and often fertility rates have barely budged deep structural issues 1:45:39.479 --> 1:45:44.080 like the cost of living, cultural norms around gender, career paths, 1:45:44.680 --> 1:45:48.640 health concerns. All these often ugwe the incentives of a 1:45:48.640 --> 1:45:52.720 couple of thousand dollars or extended opportunity leaves. You know, 1:45:52.760 --> 1:45:55.799 if people don't want to have babies, they're not gonna 1:45:55.840 --> 1:45:58.559 have babies. If they're not confident in their ability to 1:45:58.600 --> 1:46:02.839 have children raising environment that they feel is best for them, 1:46:03.040 --> 1:46:05.880 they're not going to have children. You know, people, more 1:46:05.920 --> 1:46:10.880 than ever have that choice. And unfortunately, a lot of 1:46:10.960 --> 1:46:16.280 the pronatalist policies don't care about making child bearing easier, 1:46:16.800 --> 1:46:19.439 you know, easing the path to make that choice. They 1:46:19.479 --> 1:46:22.880 just want to pressure people to have children. Yep, you know, 1:46:23.040 --> 1:46:26.240 the loose straight back to massogyny, a reaction against women's freedom, 1:46:26.360 --> 1:46:29.240 pushing them back into the kitchen, pushing them back into 1:46:29.600 --> 1:46:34.800 that subservient position in society. So, after looking at both sides, right, 1:46:34.840 --> 1:46:38.439 you have the anti natalists and the pronatalists. Don't create 1:46:38.479 --> 1:46:41.200 life to avoid suffering, or you must create life to 1:46:41.240 --> 1:46:44.400 preserve society. I guess you could call me a centrist. 1:46:45.160 --> 1:46:51.559 The anti natalists repulse me, and the pronatalists equally repulse me. 1:46:52.040 --> 1:46:55.120 You know, I'm wary of anyone claiming that you must 1:46:55.160 --> 1:46:58.080 have children or you must not have children. I'm weary 1:46:58.120 --> 1:47:00.720 of a world where these kinds of choices are coerced 1:47:00.840 --> 1:47:03.759 by others. You know, as an anarchist, I'm a firm 1:47:03.760 --> 1:47:07.280 believer in autronomy, in personal freedom and the ability to 1:47:07.320 --> 1:47:11.080 decide one's own life. That's what matters to me. You know, 1:47:11.080 --> 1:47:13.800 I don't intend to have children myself. I do like 1:47:13.920 --> 1:47:16.519 children a lot. I was once a child myself, and 1:47:16.560 --> 1:47:18.960 I look forward to being an uncle, a godfather and 1:47:19.040 --> 1:47:22.040 all that. But that's my choice. You know, Let your 1:47:22.120 --> 1:47:24.320 choice be your choice and my choice be my choice. 1:47:24.680 --> 1:47:28.640 Make choices freely, resist the pressure from either camp, and 1:47:28.760 --> 1:47:31.720 keep the agency intact. That's all I have to say 1:47:31.720 --> 1:47:31.920 on it. 1:47:32.000 --> 1:47:34.280 Honestly, Yeah, I mean honestly, that covers my stuff. 1:47:34.280 --> 1:47:35.040 I was gonna say so. 1:47:36.000 --> 1:47:41.240 Yeah, I mean with that if speaking rapid Yeah, all 1:47:41.320 --> 1:47:43.840 power to all the people. This has been It could 1:47:43.840 --> 1:47:45.920 happen here, Peace. 1:47:59.400 --> 1:48:02.559 Hello, and welcome back to it could happen here. I 1:48:02.600 --> 1:48:06.240 am your occasional host, Molly Conger, and today I have 1:48:07.160 --> 1:48:10.000 exactly the kind of story you probably expect when you 1:48:10.080 --> 1:48:13.559 hear my voice on this feed. A white nationalist has 1:48:14.080 --> 1:48:16.439 gone and done something we all wish that he was 1:48:16.479 --> 1:48:20.519 not doing. If you listen to my show Weird Little Guys, 1:48:21.120 --> 1:48:23.719 you already know a little bit about this particular guy. 1:48:24.680 --> 1:48:28.120 On that show, I talk about white nationalists, neo Nazis, 1:48:28.240 --> 1:48:33.479 right wing extremists, aspiring terrorists, things of that nature. My 1:48:33.560 --> 1:48:37.200 domain is mostly guys you've never heard of because they 1:48:37.320 --> 1:48:40.080 failed to live up to their goal of becoming the 1:48:40.080 --> 1:48:44.479 next Hitler or whatever. It's funnier than it sounds, I swear, 1:48:45.320 --> 1:48:49.400 But unfortunately for all of us, sometimes one of those 1:48:49.439 --> 1:48:54.360 guys breaches containment. The guy we're talking about today wants 1:48:54.400 --> 1:48:56.880 to be more than just one of the weird little 1:48:56.880 --> 1:48:59.000 guys trying to make a name for himself on the 1:48:59.040 --> 1:49:02.640 fringes of the white nationalist movement. He wants to be 1:49:02.680 --> 1:49:09.040 a congressman. He's trying to make himself everybody's problem, and 1:49:09.080 --> 1:49:14.599 that makes him part of what is happening here. Back 1:49:14.640 --> 1:49:18.200 in August, Representative Nancy Mace announced that she wouldn't seek 1:49:18.240 --> 1:49:22.320 re election in South Carolina's first congressional district and she 1:49:22.360 --> 1:49:26.040 would instead focus on making a run for governor. And 1:49:26.080 --> 1:49:30.479 that announcement opened the floodgates. All but one of the 1:49:30.520 --> 1:49:34.360 ten Republicans vying for the nomination to replace her filed 1:49:34.400 --> 1:49:38.760 their paperwork after the announcement. I don't pay a ton 1:49:38.800 --> 1:49:41.200 of attention to this sort of thing. It's not really 1:49:41.240 --> 1:49:45.320 my wheelhouse. But last month a man named Tyler Dikes 1:49:45.880 --> 1:49:49.600 joined the race, filing paperwork as a congressional candidate in 1:49:49.680 --> 1:49:54.520 Mace's district. Now, like I said, it's a crowded field. 1:49:54.880 --> 1:49:58.200 There are ten people in this primary, and it's Nancy 1:49:58.240 --> 1:50:01.720 Mace's district, So being a little bit of a conspiracy 1:50:01.760 --> 1:50:05.880 theorist with an extremely right wing policy platform doesn't really 1:50:05.920 --> 1:50:11.000 set you apart. They all kind of blend together most years. 1:50:11.360 --> 1:50:13.960 I probably couldn't tell you a whole lot about every 1:50:13.960 --> 1:50:17.800 primary candidate in my own district, let alone won two 1:50:17.800 --> 1:50:22.879 states away. So on the surface, he's just another carbon 1:50:23.000 --> 1:50:26.960 copy America first zelot trying to fit this particular mold. 1:50:27.680 --> 1:50:31.519 He's created an image for his campaign that's not unlike 1:50:31.840 --> 1:50:35.880 Nancy Mace's, and I guess that makes sense, right. These 1:50:35.920 --> 1:50:39.040 people voted for her, so maybe that's what works here. 1:50:40.160 --> 1:50:44.719 Tyler Diykes's campaign website is pretty similar to Nancy Mace's. 1:50:45.640 --> 1:50:50.639 They both emphasize their personal connection to military service. Nancy 1:50:50.640 --> 1:50:54.559 Mace graduated from the Citadel Military College and Tyler Diykes 1:50:54.560 --> 1:50:57.439 features photos of himself and his Marine Corps dress blues. 1:50:58.240 --> 1:51:02.599 They both describe themselves as entrepreneurs and business owners, and 1:51:03.360 --> 1:51:07.640 they both hate immigrants so much that their lust for 1:51:07.800 --> 1:51:12.519 mass deportation isn't even confined only to the pages devoted 1:51:12.520 --> 1:51:16.400 to their position on the issue. It's in their candidate biographies, 1:51:17.360 --> 1:51:20.400 and they frame themselves as fighters. There's a lot of 1:51:21.040 --> 1:51:25.200 fight based language, fighting for America, fighting for Christ, and 1:51:25.240 --> 1:51:29.120 they both really position their devotion to God as something 1:51:29.160 --> 1:51:33.320 they have to fight for and fight against the christ 1:51:33.479 --> 1:51:37.559 hating whardes on the left to keep like this is 1:51:37.600 --> 1:51:42.200 something someone's trying to take from them. Their platforms are 1:51:42.240 --> 1:51:47.920 pretty similar to America First, South Carolina first, law and order, 1:51:48.080 --> 1:51:52.160 tough on crime, deport millions of people. Nancy Mace is 1:51:52.200 --> 1:51:55.599 running for governor on eliminating the state income tax and 1:51:56.240 --> 1:51:58.639 if he gets to Congress, Tyler Diyke says he wants 1:51:58.680 --> 1:52:02.479 to slash taxes two but of the five main policy 1:52:02.520 --> 1:52:05.960 ideas on his congressional campaign website, the one that's about 1:52:06.200 --> 1:52:09.320 taxes the tax that he will cut as a congressman. 1:52:09.840 --> 1:52:15.280 He wrote that he will end property taxes. Now, regardless 1:52:15.280 --> 1:52:18.960 of how you feel about property taxes, those are imposed 1:52:19.000 --> 1:52:22.679 by your state and local government. The federal government doesn't 1:52:22.760 --> 1:52:26.600 tax your property. So I guess he's got that Republican 1:52:26.920 --> 1:52:32.040 tax cut spirit. But he's a little confused, but overall 1:52:33.040 --> 1:52:37.080 just another far right America First candidate trying to elbow 1:52:37.120 --> 1:52:41.160 his way into this attention economy. It's distasteful, it's bigoted, 1:52:41.200 --> 1:52:47.400 it's chrysto fascist, enophobic, poorly articulated, economically unsound, but it's 1:52:47.400 --> 1:52:52.479 not unique or interesting. These guys are a dime a dozen, 1:52:52.600 --> 1:52:55.280 and they'll mostly be gone by the time the primaries end. 1:52:55.960 --> 1:53:01.439 But there is one really weird thing about Tyler's campaign messaging. 1:53:02.360 --> 1:53:07.360 He keeps bringing up that he's not a Nazi. He 1:53:07.400 --> 1:53:11.120 wants you to know that no one's asking him this. 1:53:11.479 --> 1:53:15.799 He's bringing it up preemptively. I am not a Nazi. 1:53:15.880 --> 1:53:18.160 Letters that he mailed to the homes of hundreds of 1:53:18.240 --> 1:53:22.080 voters in his district are starting to raise questions he 1:53:22.120 --> 1:53:23.960 thinks are already answered in those letters. 1:53:24.360 --> 1:53:25.000 And here's the thing. 1:53:25.040 --> 1:53:26.760 They still call me a Nazi to this lick. 1:53:26.920 --> 1:53:31.000 They still random me is all these evil, horrific things. 1:53:31.479 --> 1:53:34.519 But let me tell you this what makes me a Nazi. 1:53:35.439 --> 1:53:39.519 I love Christ, I love God. I love my country. 1:53:39.840 --> 1:53:42.960 I love my state, my family, and my community and 1:53:43.040 --> 1:53:45.479 the entirety of the Low Country area. And that's why 1:53:45.520 --> 1:53:46.440 I live here. 1:53:46.200 --> 1:53:47.519 Because I love you so much. 1:53:49.000 --> 1:53:51.640 So does that make me a Nazi? Does love in 1:53:51.720 --> 1:53:55.400 your family? Does loving God? Does love in your country? 1:53:55.439 --> 1:54:00.439 Does that make you a Nazi? That makes you a nazi? Sophet? 1:54:00.800 --> 1:54:05.639 Oh, wow, he's just another tragic victim of cancel culture. 1:54:06.240 --> 1:54:09.400 He's being attacked by the woke mobs who hate good 1:54:09.479 --> 1:54:12.519 Christian men and that's why they're calling him nazi. 1:54:13.280 --> 1:54:13.479 Right? 1:54:14.360 --> 1:54:17.680 Is there another reason that this keeps coming up? Or 1:54:17.720 --> 1:54:20.360 is it just because he loves his family so much? 1:54:21.160 --> 1:54:22.040 So it's quite interesting. 1:54:22.080 --> 1:54:24.519 You know, my experience is anily six. 1:54:24.600 --> 1:54:27.839 For example, my brand is the neo Nazi domestic terrorists 1:54:28.040 --> 1:54:28.839 because hwave. 1:54:29.920 --> 1:54:34.280 Oh, it's not just because he loves his family. It's 1:54:34.280 --> 1:54:38.240 because he's a peaceful, patriotic supporter of Donald Trump who 1:54:38.800 --> 1:54:41.560 visited the Capitol Building and the communists who run the 1:54:41.600 --> 1:54:46.400 mainstream media are unfairly showing a photograph of him where 1:54:46.400 --> 1:54:49.240 he was simply waving hello to a friend. And that's 1:54:49.240 --> 1:54:52.160 why they're calling him nazi because he loves America too 1:54:52.240 --> 1:54:54.960 much and he waved Helloa to a friend while on 1:54:55.000 --> 1:54:58.600 a sightseeing trip to the Capitol Building. It probably won't 1:54:58.600 --> 1:55:02.360 surprise you to know that that is not the whole story. 1:55:03.520 --> 1:55:07.640 He's getting closer. It's definitely a little bit more about 1:55:07.760 --> 1:55:10.640 what specifically he was doing with his right arm at 1:55:10.640 --> 1:55:12.920 the top of the east stairs of the Capitol Building 1:55:12.920 --> 1:55:15.600 a little after two pm on January sixth, twenty twenty one. 1:55:16.160 --> 1:55:19.440 It's more about that than it is about his love 1:55:19.480 --> 1:55:22.400 of his family. He's getting warmer. 1:55:34.280 --> 1:55:34.680 See. 1:55:35.120 --> 1:55:37.920 The reason he keeps bringing up that he doesn't want 1:55:37.920 --> 1:55:42.840 to be called a Nazi is because there are Nazi allegations. 1:55:43.880 --> 1:55:47.760 But these allegations aren't just lies from the evil left 1:55:47.760 --> 1:55:51.280 wing media. It's something he's been asked about by the 1:55:51.360 --> 1:55:57.320 FBI and by the DOJ, and the Marine Corps and 1:55:57.520 --> 1:56:02.560 police in multiple jurisdictions across several states. A lot of 1:56:02.600 --> 1:56:06.720 people are asking him about the Nazi thing, So it 1:56:06.800 --> 1:56:08.640 makes sense that he'd want to get out ahead of 1:56:08.680 --> 1:56:11.720 it and assure the voters that there's a good explanation 1:56:12.720 --> 1:56:16.000 when he brings up that innocent wave that's being taken 1:56:16.000 --> 1:56:18.960 out of context to smear him as a Nazi. He's 1:56:19.000 --> 1:56:23.560 talking about a photograph, a particular photograph and one of 1:56:23.640 --> 1:56:27.760 many that federal prosecutors included in their sentencing memorandum. After 1:56:27.840 --> 1:56:31.440 Tyler Dykes accepted a plea agreement in federal court. He 1:56:31.520 --> 1:56:35.160 pleaded guilty to two counts of assaulting an officer during 1:56:35.160 --> 1:56:37.760 the breach of the Capitol on January sixth, twenty twenty one. 1:56:38.640 --> 1:56:41.920 In exchange for his cooperation, the government dropped the other 1:56:42.080 --> 1:56:46.920 eight counts on the indictment. So in that sentencing memorandum, 1:56:47.080 --> 1:56:50.360 there's a picture. It's a still frame that was taken 1:56:50.360 --> 1:56:53.720 from a video, but obviously you can't put a video 1:56:53.960 --> 1:56:57.320 on paper, so it's just a still frame, and it 1:56:57.400 --> 1:57:00.040 shows a mass of people making their way up the 1:56:59.880 --> 1:57:02.640 east steps of the Capitol Building on the afternoon of 1:57:02.720 --> 1:57:06.280 January sixth. Whoever's taking the video was standing at the 1:57:06.280 --> 1:57:09.680 bottom of the stairs, so you're just seeing the backs 1:57:09.840 --> 1:57:11.840 of the people in this crowd who are walking up 1:57:11.920 --> 1:57:15.600 the stairs, except for the figure in the center. In 1:57:15.680 --> 1:57:18.320 the center of the picture, at the top of the stairs, 1:57:19.280 --> 1:57:21.880 a very tall man in a black jacket and a 1:57:21.920 --> 1:57:26.320 gray mask has turned around so he's facing the plaza below, 1:57:27.000 --> 1:57:30.720 and he's sort of squared up facing down the stairs, 1:57:31.480 --> 1:57:35.240 and his right arm is completely extended at about a 1:57:35.280 --> 1:57:41.240 forty five degree angle elbow straight wrists, straight, fingers together. 1:57:42.600 --> 1:57:47.200 The government's caption reads still from video showing Dikes performing 1:57:47.200 --> 1:57:49.680 what appears to be the see Kyle's salute after he 1:57:49.760 --> 1:57:52.360 arrives on the landing in front of the East Rotunda doors. 1:57:53.680 --> 1:57:57.680 He maintains that he was waving to a friend. For 1:57:57.760 --> 1:58:01.200 what it's worth, I've seen a lot of these waves, 1:58:01.960 --> 1:58:04.440 and I know what it looks like to me, and 1:58:04.960 --> 1:58:08.560 regardless of what it looks like to you in this photograph, 1:58:08.880 --> 1:58:11.320 I have a video of him doing the exact same 1:58:12.000 --> 1:58:15.960 wave at a Nazi rally, so it's not just a picture. 1:58:17.120 --> 1:58:19.840 He only served three of the fifty seven months he 1:58:19.920 --> 1:58:22.640 was sentenced to spend in prison before he was released 1:58:22.920 --> 1:58:25.360 in January of twenty twenty five as a result of 1:58:25.400 --> 1:58:29.840 Trump's blanket pardons for the nearly sixteen hundred January sixth defendants. 1:58:30.560 --> 1:58:33.880 But that's not the issue here. He's not ashamed of 1:58:33.920 --> 1:58:37.400 being a January sixth defendant. That's a badge of honor. 1:58:37.640 --> 1:58:41.920 That's not a problem. If he can spin this Nazi 1:58:41.960 --> 1:58:46.240 thing into a story that reinforces this narrative of brave 1:58:46.440 --> 1:58:50.720 January sixth patriots who are being persecuted by communists and 1:58:50.920 --> 1:58:54.920 liberals and the woke mob, it stops being a problem 1:58:55.400 --> 1:58:58.640 for the people whose attention and votes and donations he wants. 1:59:00.600 --> 1:59:03.520 His story is pretty simple. All the people calling him 1:59:03.520 --> 1:59:06.960 a Nazi are lying. They're taking a single photograph out 1:59:07.000 --> 1:59:10.280 of context. It's not a Nazi salute, it's a wave. 1:59:11.560 --> 1:59:15.400 And all of this, all of this Nazi talk, it's 1:59:15.440 --> 1:59:18.040 all just about this one single incident, this one picture, 1:59:18.080 --> 1:59:22.640 this one wave, and the government, the government is preventing 1:59:22.720 --> 1:59:23.560 him from proving that. 1:59:23.520 --> 1:59:26.760 To you, and then the honorable judge that I had 1:59:27.120 --> 1:59:29.240 denied me being able to get that evidence and being 1:59:29.240 --> 1:59:31.840 able to show that people, and so a lot of 1:59:31.840 --> 1:59:34.120 these people, unfortunately, because of a lot of the news 1:59:34.160 --> 1:59:36.520 media and because of the outforts of the Biden administration, 1:59:36.560 --> 1:59:38.280 they see me as an enemy and as a terrorist. 1:59:39.160 --> 1:59:42.480 That's Tyler Dyke's in mid October of this year telling 1:59:42.560 --> 1:59:45.839 a local TV news crew in Hiltonhead that the media 1:59:45.960 --> 1:59:49.120 is complicit in spreading these lies the government told about 1:59:49.160 --> 1:59:52.280 him in court. When he was interviewed last month by 1:59:52.280 --> 1:59:55.960 a conspiracy theorist and right wing podcaster named Anne Vandersteele, 1:59:56.440 --> 1:59:59.760 she was on his side, She was earnest, and she 1:59:59.800 --> 2:00:02.520 won to get to the bottom of this. He told 2:00:02.520 --> 2:00:05.480 her that the government's entire case was lie after lie, 2:00:05.520 --> 2:00:07.480 and there's proof that he never did any of those 2:00:07.520 --> 2:00:10.920 things on January sixth. And she's excited to hear this, 2:00:11.560 --> 2:00:14.480 and she wants to see these videos because she would 2:00:14.480 --> 2:00:17.640 love to see proof that the government is persecuting our 2:00:17.720 --> 2:00:22.440 brave January sixth patriots. But there's one little problem. 2:00:22.840 --> 2:00:24.480 Well, you know, that's a very funny thing. 2:00:24.720 --> 2:00:27.760 The honorable judge in my case actually put out a 2:00:27.840 --> 2:00:30.960 gaggle order banning me from being able to have any 2:00:31.000 --> 2:00:33.080 of the discovery evidence for me to be able to 2:00:33.080 --> 2:00:37.360 defend myself from the force that is in the dockets. 2:00:38.200 --> 2:00:42.360 Oh, it's in the dockets. It's in the dockets. Phenomenal. 2:00:42.880 --> 2:00:44.400 I can look at the dockets. We can look at 2:00:44.400 --> 2:00:47.880 that together. That's easy. And I do see here that 2:00:48.240 --> 2:00:51.800 there is a protective order filed in this case. Shortly 2:00:51.840 --> 2:00:55.200 after he was first arrested, the judge entered an order 2:00:55.280 --> 2:00:59.680 prohibiting the public dissemination of certain discovery materials. If you 2:00:59.680 --> 2:01:02.680 look at enough J six cases, this kind of protective 2:01:02.800 --> 2:01:07.000 order was almost universal. The government didn't want to publicly 2:01:07.040 --> 2:01:11.600 release stuff like the names of confidential informants, security footage 2:01:11.600 --> 2:01:15.960 from inside certain secure government areas, personal information about witnesses, 2:01:17.040 --> 2:01:19.480 just a laundry list of kinds of evidence that was 2:01:20.000 --> 2:01:24.240 likely to be produced in these cases that would be sensitive. 2:01:25.080 --> 2:01:27.120 So they're not saying they can't turn it over to 2:01:27.160 --> 2:01:31.600 the defense in discovery. They're just saying this stays between us, right, 2:01:31.680 --> 2:01:34.600 This doesn't get released to the public. This was normal 2:01:35.200 --> 2:01:38.680 and it was routine, and it was agreed to by 2:01:38.760 --> 2:01:43.720 everyone involved. The defense council agreed to this. So okay, 2:01:43.840 --> 2:01:46.040 off to a good start. I do see a protective 2:01:46.120 --> 2:01:49.640 order on the docket. But if you skip down a 2:01:49.760 --> 2:01:51.920 year down to the bottom of the docket, to the 2:01:52.040 --> 2:01:55.480 end of the case. After the guilty plea, the government 2:01:55.520 --> 2:01:58.880 filed their exhibit list for the sentencing hearing, and in 2:01:58.920 --> 2:02:03.440 that document, the federal prosecutor wrote, the government does not 2:02:03.520 --> 2:02:07.400 object to any photo or video evidence being released. 2:02:07.040 --> 2:02:07.600 To the public. 2:02:08.600 --> 2:02:10.840 So of the exhibits they planned to show in court 2:02:10.880 --> 2:02:15.040 at sentencing, they said, it's okay if everyone sees these, 2:02:15.240 --> 2:02:17.840 the media can have these. And so the judge in 2:02:17.840 --> 2:02:22.200 turn asked defense counsel how they felt about that, and 2:02:22.240 --> 2:02:26.920 the defense replied, defendant Tyler Bradley Dyke's by and through 2:02:26.920 --> 2:02:30.320 his attorneys, does not object to the video and photo 2:02:30.360 --> 2:02:33.640 evidence identified and the government's noticed ECF number forty four 2:02:34.280 --> 2:02:39.839 being made publicly available. Defendant does subject to any public 2:02:39.880 --> 2:02:44.320 disclosure of his military records identified in Exhibit nineteen, and 2:02:44.360 --> 2:02:47.160 so the judge signed an order the exhibits that the 2:02:47.200 --> 2:02:51.240 government identified for the sentencing hearing, which the file names 2:02:51.240 --> 2:02:54.800 are in that document. It includes the video of the wave, 2:02:55.320 --> 2:02:58.880 the video of him grabbing the policeman's shield, the things 2:02:58.920 --> 2:03:02.200 he's saying he can't get yet. Based on the file names, 2:03:03.080 --> 2:03:07.000 those videos can absolutely be requested from the court. These 2:03:07.040 --> 2:03:10.360 aren't under seal. There's not a gag order. He can 2:03:10.400 --> 2:03:14.000 request these, and I think he should do that. There 2:03:14.040 --> 2:03:16.000 are a lot of videos on that exhibit list, and 2:03:16.520 --> 2:03:19.800 I'm sure people would like to decide for themselves if 2:03:19.840 --> 2:03:34.400 he's describing them faithfully. The only exhibit on that list 2:03:34.800 --> 2:03:38.240 for the defense objected to making publicly available, the only 2:03:38.320 --> 2:03:41.919 one that remains sealed and isn't available for public access, 2:03:42.560 --> 2:03:48.600 are his military records. Those military records are specifically the 2:03:48.680 --> 2:03:52.520 ones related to the other than honorable discharge he received 2:03:52.680 --> 2:03:56.880 from the Marines. See those campaign flyers, the ones he 2:03:56.920 --> 2:04:00.120 was mailing to people's houses. They're all signed at the 2:04:00.120 --> 2:04:05.360 bottom Tyler Dykes, US Marine Corps veteran business owner, pardoned 2:04:05.480 --> 2:04:09.760 J six's patriot On November tenth, the Marine Corps birthday. 2:04:10.360 --> 2:04:12.760 He posted a photo of himself in his dress blues 2:04:12.840 --> 2:04:16.480 on the campaign's Instagram account. Being a Marine Corps veteran 2:04:16.600 --> 2:04:19.960 is as big a part of his campaign identity as 2:04:20.400 --> 2:04:23.160 talking about how he's not a Nazi. These are kind 2:04:23.160 --> 2:04:26.920 of the top two things. He's a Marine, and he 2:04:26.960 --> 2:04:30.840 really wants you to know that Nazi stuff isn't true. 2:04:30.960 --> 2:04:34.800 And he was a Marine. That's true. He definitely was 2:04:35.160 --> 2:04:38.760 in the Marine Corps. But those military records that he 2:04:38.800 --> 2:04:43.720 doesn't want released would really undermine his narrative about being 2:04:43.760 --> 2:04:48.840 a proud, honorable veteran who definitely isn't a Nazi, because 2:04:48.880 --> 2:04:51.960 they would show that he received an other than honorable 2:04:52.000 --> 2:04:57.960 discharge for participating in prohibited extremist activity on November eighth, 2:04:58.040 --> 2:05:02.280 twenty twenty. And that's in the file. I know that 2:05:02.360 --> 2:05:06.640 specifically is in that sealed file because in other documents 2:05:06.640 --> 2:05:10.520 that refer to it, that's all it says. I don't 2:05:10.520 --> 2:05:12.680 know what else is in that record. All I know 2:05:12.760 --> 2:05:16.480 for sure is that the stated reason for his other 2:05:16.560 --> 2:05:20.920 than honorable discharge is something that happened on November eighth, 2:05:21.360 --> 2:05:25.920 twenty twenty. Now, luckily for us, I know that on 2:05:25.960 --> 2:05:30.000 November eighth, twenty twenty, a security camera in Sumter County, 2:05:30.000 --> 2:05:34.480 South Carolina recorded footage of two men. One of the 2:05:34.520 --> 2:05:38.160 men looked exactly like Tyler Diykes. Even his father had 2:05:38.200 --> 2:05:41.480 to agree it kind of did. And the men were 2:05:41.480 --> 2:05:45.080 putting up flyers with swastikas on them outside local businesses. 2:05:46.440 --> 2:05:50.800 I don't know if his military discharge records include anything else. 2:05:52.080 --> 2:05:55.000 Was it really just the flyers, just the one time 2:05:55.040 --> 2:05:58.360 with the swastika flyers and that was it. I don't 2:05:58.360 --> 2:06:01.680 know if the military was a where that he'd been 2:06:01.720 --> 2:06:05.760 attending things like a paramilitary training weekend at a compound 2:06:05.760 --> 2:06:08.560 in Michigan hosted by members of the neo Nazi group 2:06:08.640 --> 2:06:11.760 the Base. I don't know if there's a memo in 2:06:11.840 --> 2:06:14.480 there about the time in January of twenty nineteen that 2:06:14.560 --> 2:06:17.839 an FBI agent from the Joint Terrorism Task Force questioned 2:06:17.920 --> 2:06:22.960 him about his possible connections to domestic extremist groups. I 2:06:23.000 --> 2:06:25.880 don't know if the Marine Corps knew that he was 2:06:25.920 --> 2:06:29.800 one of just a handful of white nationalists who attended 2:06:29.840 --> 2:06:33.160 the Unite the Right to the flop of a Nazi 2:06:33.280 --> 2:06:36.720 rally held in Washington, d C. In twenty eighteen to 2:06:36.760 --> 2:06:39.600 commemorate the deadly rally that had happened a year earlier, 2:06:40.440 --> 2:06:43.040 and along that same line of thought. I don't know 2:06:43.120 --> 2:06:46.160 if the Marine Corps knew back then the Tyler Dykes 2:06:46.160 --> 2:06:48.360 had attended the Unite the Right rally in Charlesville in 2:06:48.360 --> 2:06:51.960 twenty seventeen. I don't know if they saw the videos 2:06:52.000 --> 2:06:54.480 of him marching with a tiki torch or the videos 2:06:54.480 --> 2:06:57.560 of him punching wildly at counter protesters that he'd helped 2:06:57.640 --> 2:07:01.560 trap in that sea of flames. And with the exception 2:07:01.640 --> 2:07:04.440 of the United the Right rally in twenty seventeen, which 2:07:04.560 --> 2:07:08.120 was before he enlisted, all of the rest of that 2:07:08.280 --> 2:07:13.400 conduct occurred while Tyler Dykes was a Marine. He went 2:07:13.440 --> 2:07:17.080 to Nazi rallies, he joined Nazi groups, he put up 2:07:17.160 --> 2:07:19.880 Nazi flyers, he went to Nazi training camps to prepare 2:07:19.920 --> 2:07:22.200 for the race war, and he fought his way into 2:07:22.240 --> 2:07:28.000 the Capitol Building on January sixth. So, okay, yeah, he 2:07:28.040 --> 2:07:31.120 was a United States Marine. He can post that picture 2:07:31.120 --> 2:07:33.480 in his uniform on his campaign website. I don't care 2:07:34.440 --> 2:07:37.640 I'm not personally offended about him being a stain on 2:07:37.680 --> 2:07:41.360 the honor of the US military or whatever, but I 2:07:41.400 --> 2:07:44.640 think a lot of voters would feel like this isn't 2:07:44.680 --> 2:07:48.720 quite honest. By the time Tyler Dykes was arrested in 2:07:48.720 --> 2:07:51.960 twenty twenty three and extradited back to Virginia to face 2:07:52.080 --> 2:07:55.320 charges for menacing those counter protesters with a lit torch, 2:07:55.920 --> 2:07:58.840 he'd already been kicked out of the Marines. He had 2:07:58.880 --> 2:08:02.480 apparently hidden that from his parents, and there was a 2:08:02.520 --> 2:08:05.280 lot they didn't know about their son. The day he 2:08:05.320 --> 2:08:08.160 was arrested in twenty twenty three, he'd been out with 2:08:08.240 --> 2:08:11.360 other members of a group called the Southern Son's Active Club, 2:08:12.200 --> 2:08:16.000 a sort of white supremacist fight club for friendless young men. 2:08:16.880 --> 2:08:20.080 They were trying to hang Nazi banners from a highway overpass, 2:08:20.240 --> 2:08:22.800 but Tyler Dykes was bitten by a dog and had 2:08:22.840 --> 2:08:26.360 to go to the hospital instead. He eventually pleaded guilty 2:08:26.400 --> 2:08:29.520 to that felony charge in Almarle County, Virginia, related to 2:08:29.560 --> 2:08:32.080 the torch march, and he spent a few months in 2:08:32.120 --> 2:08:35.040 the local jail. On the day he was supposed to 2:08:35.120 --> 2:08:38.200 go home, he was picked up by a federal Marshal. 2:08:39.160 --> 2:08:42.040 The DOJ had waited until the last day of his 2:08:42.120 --> 2:08:46.360 sentence here to unseal the charges against him for January sixth, 2:08:47.560 --> 2:08:49.480 and after that he spent a year out on pre 2:08:49.560 --> 2:08:52.120 trial bond in that case. And then he eventually pleaded 2:08:52.120 --> 2:08:54.880 guilty to those charges in the summer of twenty twenty four, 2:08:55.400 --> 2:08:58.000 and he finally reported to federal prison in October of 2:08:58.040 --> 2:09:01.879 twenty twenty four to be there for almost five years, 2:09:03.120 --> 2:09:06.680 but he was released a few months later in January 2:09:06.680 --> 2:09:11.400 of this year after receiving a federal pardon, and now 2:09:12.400 --> 2:09:15.400 he wants to go back to the Capitol Building, not 2:09:15.480 --> 2:09:19.600 as a rioter this time, but as a congressman. The 2:09:19.680 --> 2:09:23.280 campaign is barely a month old. He's using a right 2:09:23.280 --> 2:09:27.080 wing crowdfunding site for campaign donations, so you can see 2:09:27.120 --> 2:09:30.320 that he hasn't cracked two hundred dollars yet. The only 2:09:30.320 --> 2:09:33.760 photo of his launch party is so tightly cropped that 2:09:33.840 --> 2:09:36.760 you can only see the candidate himself standing in an 2:09:36.760 --> 2:09:39.960 empty field in a public park. I don't think there's 2:09:40.000 --> 2:09:42.520 a lot of grassroots excitement for Tyler Diykes in South 2:09:42.560 --> 2:09:46.320 Carolina's first district. But if he does keep making the rounds, 2:09:46.880 --> 2:09:48.360 and if he ever ends up in front of a 2:09:48.360 --> 2:09:52.240 real reporter, I hope they'll ask him why doesn't he 2:09:52.360 --> 2:09:56.000 just produce those exhibits. The videos he's claiming are being 2:09:56.080 --> 2:10:00.320 kept from him under seal aren't. And if he so 2:10:00.440 --> 2:10:03.080 against any exhibits being held back from the court of 2:10:03.080 --> 2:10:06.080 public opinion, he could go ahead and release the one 2:10:06.120 --> 2:10:09.480 he actually has in his own possession, the only one 2:10:09.560 --> 2:10:15.120 that is sealed. He has his own discharge records show 2:10:15.200 --> 2:10:18.960 him to us. I'm dying to know how many of 2:10:19.000 --> 2:10:22.160 those Nazi rallies the Marine Corps knew about before they 2:10:22.200 --> 2:10:25.720 finally kicked him out. If you're interested in hearing more 2:10:25.720 --> 2:10:29.200 about this particular weird little Guy, there are two episodes 2:10:29.200 --> 2:10:31.600 available right now over on the Weird Little Guy's feed. 2:10:32.240 --> 2:10:34.400 Let's say Cool Zone Media show you can listen to 2:10:34.960 --> 2:10:38.280 wherever you get your podcasts. If you're in the Charleston area, 2:10:38.520 --> 2:10:42.800 or more importantly, if your conservative boomer parents are, it 2:10:42.840 --> 2:10:45.280 can't hurt to let folks know that one of your 2:10:45.320 --> 2:10:49.840 local candidates isn't being entirely forthcoming about why people are 2:10:49.840 --> 2:10:53.680 calling him a Nazi and wherever your conservative parents live. 2:10:54.400 --> 2:10:57.320 Maybe this is a useful example of the kind of 2:10:57.360 --> 2:11:00.919 thing you might find when you start at least scratching 2:11:00.960 --> 2:11:04.080 the surface of these America First candidates. 2:11:18.440 --> 2:11:21.800 All right, everybody, this is an emergency episode of it 2:11:21.840 --> 2:11:24.920 could happen here. We're dropping everything else for the most 2:11:24.920 --> 2:11:29.240 important breaking news in the country. Andy Dick has overdosed 2:11:29.280 --> 2:11:33.080 in public in the city of Los Angeles. Thankfully, in 2:11:33.120 --> 2:11:36.240 preparation for this, we've had our entire team deployed to 2:11:36.280 --> 2:11:39.240 the areas around Andy Dick's home. James, do you have 2:11:39.240 --> 2:11:40.600 any updates on the situation. 2:11:41.880 --> 2:11:43.960 No, I'm not sure who Andy Dick is. It's just 2:11:44.040 --> 2:11:45.320 like a public figure in a bout. 2:11:45.400 --> 2:11:50.800 I couldn't planned this out better. Andy Dick is America's 2:11:50.800 --> 2:11:53.920 sweetheart and he's going through some troubled times. But it's okay. 2:11:53.800 --> 2:11:57.760 They narcandem in public. No, it's Andy Dick's fault. This 2:11:57.880 --> 2:12:00.760 is entirely on Andy Dick. Ye on the person who 2:12:00.800 --> 2:12:01.960 had not Kerry Narkan. 2:12:02.160 --> 2:12:02.360 Yeah. 2:12:02.480 --> 2:12:05.320 No, one should never feel sorry for Andy Dick. I 2:12:05.360 --> 2:12:06.680 feel bad for the narcan. 2:12:07.560 --> 2:12:10.600 This is it could happen here. Executive Disorder, our weekly 2:12:10.640 --> 2:12:13.880 newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, 2:12:13.880 --> 2:12:18.440 and Andy Dick. I'm Garrison Davis. This episode, I'm joined 2:12:18.440 --> 2:12:19.520 by do. 2:12:19.560 --> 2:12:21.560 We've refer to someone the first time we only used 2:12:21.560 --> 2:12:22.600 the last name Garrison. 2:12:22.760 --> 2:12:26.320 Yeah, I'm joined by being James Shout, Robert Evans, and 2:12:26.360 --> 2:12:30.240 Sophy Lechter. We are covering the week of December fourth, 2:12:30.320 --> 2:12:31.640 December tenth. 2:12:31.920 --> 2:12:35.040 So one of the big stories of the last week 2:12:35.160 --> 2:12:38.920 or so is something that would seem would be unequivocally 2:12:39.000 --> 2:12:41.800 a bad thing in any other political climate, which is 2:12:41.960 --> 2:12:45.880 Netflix buying Warner Brothers and contributing to the shrinking ever 2:12:46.000 --> 2:12:48.680 further of like America's like the number of people who 2:12:48.720 --> 2:12:51.120 actually own all of the media that Americans consume. 2:12:51.240 --> 2:12:53.440 Yeah, monopolization is obviously bad. 2:12:53.240 --> 2:12:55.800 But in this case, I mean it's it's it's bad 2:12:55.960 --> 2:12:59.000 that on that end, it's probably better that Netflix buy 2:12:59.040 --> 2:13:02.320 it than Paramount. Yes, so I guess I'm like, well, okay, 2:13:02.440 --> 2:13:04.000 it's gonna be work creditor. 2:13:03.720 --> 2:13:04.919 Versus alien situation. 2:13:05.200 --> 2:13:07.720 It's a really a weird situation, right, because a lot 2:13:07.720 --> 2:13:11.800 of people are really dooming about you know, Netflix acquiring 2:13:11.800 --> 2:13:13.640 Warner Brothers and what that'll mean for like, you know, 2:13:13.880 --> 2:13:16.640 art and the you know, theatrical model of film distribution, 2:13:17.400 --> 2:13:24.480 and then not realizing that Paramount's counterbid based on Saudi money. Yeah, 2:13:24.600 --> 2:13:28.320 would place Warner Brothers in the control of one of 2:13:28.360 --> 2:13:32.320 the most Trump aligned like media enterprises in the United States, 2:13:32.400 --> 2:13:33.560 right now, Yeah. 2:13:33.440 --> 2:13:35.560 Yeah, So let's let's let's roll back a second and 2:13:35.600 --> 2:13:37.640 look at what is actually going on here. And it's 2:13:37.640 --> 2:13:41.840 actually very important to note this is being recorded on Wednesdays, 2:13:41.920 --> 2:13:45.040 Zeber tenth. This whole situation is changing extremely quickly. There 2:13:45.240 --> 2:13:48.880 could be some another unhinged thing could have happened by 2:13:48.880 --> 2:13:52.640 the time you're listening to this. But the basics here 2:13:52.760 --> 2:13:56.440 is that Paramount which was recently acquired by sky Dance, 2:13:56.480 --> 2:13:56.880 Which is. 2:13:57.440 --> 2:13:59.400 Which direction did that acquisition go? 2:13:59.760 --> 2:14:01.720 I mean, technically speaking was a merger, but it was 2:14:01.800 --> 2:14:05.640 really but it was Skydance taking control of Paramount. Skydance 2:14:05.640 --> 2:14:09.360 had been run by Larry Ellison's son, David Ellison. 2:14:09.880 --> 2:14:10.240 David. 2:14:10.480 --> 2:14:12.600 Yeah. So and this is this is this is this 2:14:12.640 --> 2:14:16.040 is the regime that sort of imposed Barry Weiss on CBS, 2:14:16.800 --> 2:14:20.440 which has become increasingly right wing under her quote unquote leadership. 2:14:20.480 --> 2:14:23.200 We're going to do a full episode about this, I 2:14:23.240 --> 2:14:24.440 think on Monday. 2:14:24.840 --> 2:14:28.160 We're gonna be tuning into the Charlie Kirka Erica kirktown 2:14:28.200 --> 2:14:29.960 Hall on CBS this Saturday. 2:14:30.120 --> 2:14:33.920 Oh God, they can't make me. I will have recorded 2:14:33.920 --> 2:14:36.920 this episode before they did this. I'm going to be 2:14:36.920 --> 2:14:42.120 tuning in because it looks phenomenal, so it's worth putting out. 2:14:42.160 --> 2:14:44.200 So Larry Ellison, who is the father of David Ellison, 2:14:44.320 --> 2:14:46.240 is one of the most terrifying of all of the 2:14:46.320 --> 2:14:49.800 right wing billionaires. Yeah, he's kind of more quiet than 2:14:49.840 --> 2:14:54.320 someone like Andresen or Elon Musk about being a unhinged 2:14:54.400 --> 2:14:56.879 right wing fanatic. But he's one of Trust's biggest supporters. 2:14:56.880 --> 2:14:58.920 He has a whole thing about how everyone's inevitably going 2:14:58.960 --> 2:15:01.200 to be under total cont surveillalists that will make everyone 2:15:01.240 --> 2:15:06.120 behave Well, we'll cover this more later, but the Ellison's 2:15:06.160 --> 2:15:10.200 the father son Ellison duo and paramounts backed by the Saudis, 2:15:10.240 --> 2:15:11.280 Abu Dhabi and Catter. 2:15:11.440 --> 2:15:14.839 They want Bugs Bunny desperately because he keeps My sources 2:15:14.880 --> 2:15:17.840 are saying he keeps pranking Mohammed Ben Salmon. 2:15:17.640 --> 2:15:19.840 By cross dressing. Yeah, and it's really. 2:15:19.600 --> 2:15:23.160 Yeah, the entire Saudi military is incapable of stopping bugs Bunny, 2:15:23.640 --> 2:15:25.920 I mean, bet for taking him down. 2:15:26.480 --> 2:15:30.120 Well, I think what's what's an interesting fact in these 2:15:30.200 --> 2:15:34.640 various bids for control of Warner Brothers. The Netflix deal 2:15:34.760 --> 2:15:37.720 does not include CNN. The Paramount deal does. 2:15:38.120 --> 2:15:41.120 Yeah, before we get intoff, should we should say what 2:15:41.760 --> 2:15:45.000 Paramount is doing now, which is Paramounts on Monday began 2:15:45.080 --> 2:15:48.120 to try to just do a hostile takeover by just 2:15:48.160 --> 2:15:51.000 straight up buying out the shares at what they're claiming 2:15:51.120 --> 2:15:52.600 is the higher share price. There's a whole lot of 2:15:52.640 --> 2:15:55.320 complicated stuff yeah about share pricing here that you don't 2:15:55.360 --> 2:15:55.920 really care about. 2:15:56.000 --> 2:15:58.240 And there have been so many dishonest headlines, like one 2:15:58.280 --> 2:16:00.600 being like Paramount lost the bid by just eventy five 2:16:00.680 --> 2:16:02.760 cents and seventy five cents to share. That's like hundreds 2:16:02.760 --> 2:16:04.080 and hundreds of millions of dollars. 2:16:03.920 --> 2:16:07.400 Gags, And that's not even it's it's all, it's all ridiculous. Yeah, 2:16:07.560 --> 2:16:09.520 the Wall Street Journal has been getting a lot of 2:16:09.520 --> 2:16:12.200 the information about this. We've gotten to a point on 2:16:12.320 --> 2:16:15.160 Wednesday where investors are going to the Wall Street Journal 2:16:15.160 --> 2:16:16.600 and being like, there's gonna be a bidding war. There's 2:16:16.600 --> 2:16:18.720 gonna be a bidding war. But the Wall Street Journal 2:16:18.760 --> 2:16:20.760 points out, and I think this is an interesting thing 2:16:20.880 --> 2:16:24.400 here that's important to say, these hostile takeover attempts almost 2:16:24.440 --> 2:16:26.840 never work. It's like thirty percent of the time. Yeah, 2:16:26.880 --> 2:16:28.840 and it's like sub thirty percent that these that these 2:16:28.840 --> 2:16:32.200 things kind of work. But the other card that the 2:16:33.040 --> 2:16:38.520 father's son Ellison duo have is claiming that Trump is 2:16:38.560 --> 2:16:41.680 more likely to back Paramount's buyout than the Netflix one 2:16:41.720 --> 2:16:45.120 because Trump can sort of stop this through anti trust yeah, 2:16:45.240 --> 2:16:50.600 or quote unquote anti trust stuff. Per Axios, Jared Kushner's 2:16:50.640 --> 2:16:55.680 consultancy firm is part of Paramount's buyout plan, and per 2:16:55.720 --> 2:16:58.280 Wall Street Journal, David Ellison met with TRUP with Trump 2:16:58.320 --> 2:17:02.080 administration officials in quote recent days, yeah, and has offered 2:17:02.120 --> 2:17:03.720 to you know this this comes back to what Garrison 2:17:03.800 --> 2:17:05.720 was saying about CNN being part about the part of 2:17:05.760 --> 2:17:08.959 this package they have been offering to effectively do to 2:17:09.000 --> 2:17:11.120 CNA what they did to CBS, which is put it 2:17:11.200 --> 2:17:14.080 under the control of the right wing fanatic and turn 2:17:14.120 --> 2:17:17.920 it into a propaganda pure propaganda outlet. This is you know, 2:17:17.959 --> 2:17:23.640 obviously corruption of a sort of mind blowing yeah, yeah, 2:17:23.680 --> 2:17:25.080 and a broad to the fact that like our quote 2:17:25.120 --> 2:17:28.240 unquote free press is literally just for sale. Amazingly, this 2:17:28.280 --> 2:17:29.840 is not this doesn't seem to be working. 2:17:30.440 --> 2:17:33.440 No, I mean, and Trump has spoken positively about Netflix 2:17:33.440 --> 2:17:36.000 and the Netflix CEO the past two days. 2:17:36.040 --> 2:17:39.320 But he's also speaking negatively about both of them. 2:17:39.520 --> 2:17:43.760 Yeah, both the Netflix's negatively about Ellison recently. And there's 2:17:43.800 --> 2:17:47.000 a there's a quote from an article I found uh 2:17:47.080 --> 2:17:50.120 in the Wall Street Journal. Trump is so far avoided 2:17:50.120 --> 2:17:52.640 publicly backing a bitterer. None of them are particularly great 2:17:52.640 --> 2:17:54.320 friends of mine, he said at a White House round 2:17:54.320 --> 2:17:56.760 table on Monday. A person close to Trump said the 2:17:56.760 --> 2:17:58.879 President will want Paramount and Netflix to compete for his 2:17:58.920 --> 2:18:01.360 approval of a deal, which does sound very Trump. 2:18:02.160 --> 2:18:05.640 Yeah, and apparently the specific think he's mad at Paramount 2:18:05.720 --> 2:18:08.920 about is for having mergery Taylor Creen on CBSS. 2:18:09.080 --> 2:18:10.240 Yeah funny. 2:18:10.240 --> 2:18:11.920 Oh, he's so really funny. 2:18:12.000 --> 2:18:14.400 There is no amount of sort of ass kissing that 2:18:14.440 --> 2:18:17.959 you can do to actually make Trump consistently be on 2:18:18.040 --> 2:18:20.879 your side. It's really hideous. This is all disgusting. 2:18:20.520 --> 2:18:24.920 Unless unless you give him the FIFO World Peace Prize trophy. 2:18:25.080 --> 2:18:27.440 Yeah, he'll die for FIFA now. Yeah, can I just 2:18:27.520 --> 2:18:32.280 say fuck me? He's actually renaming American football to soccer. 2:18:33.680 --> 2:18:33.960 God. 2:18:34.280 --> 2:18:39.640 I love the FIFA trophy because it looks disgusting trophy. 2:18:39.680 --> 2:18:41.840 Yes, I have fifteen minutes on that. 2:18:43.160 --> 2:18:46.640 It's just all all those hands grasping that ball. 2:18:46.800 --> 2:18:47.440 Ohh my god. 2:18:47.520 --> 2:18:47.720 Yeah. 2:18:47.920 --> 2:18:50.439 Really genuinely one of the one of the most impressive 2:18:50.440 --> 2:18:54.400 actors sports sick fantasy since nineteen thirty three. 2:18:54.160 --> 2:18:57.720 But but yeah, it doesn't seem like Trump is as 2:18:57.920 --> 2:19:01.360 keen to back Paramount's bit as what some of the 2:19:01.360 --> 2:19:05.560 Paramount people thought he might be. The Netflix deal might 2:19:05.640 --> 2:19:07.040 just end up actually going through. 2:19:07.720 --> 2:19:10.160 Yeah, yeah, and we'll see about this. This is all 2:19:10.160 --> 2:19:12.920 gonna change probably by the time you're reading this or 2:19:13.120 --> 2:19:14.720 listening to this. That's that's the one that you do. 2:19:15.400 --> 2:19:18.199 But it's so cool that we live in an economy 2:19:18.240 --> 2:19:22.240 where your two options are Netflix destroys Film Forever and 2:19:22.720 --> 2:19:28.440 the Nazis gained control of CNN. It's great, great system. Yeah, no, no, no, no. 2:19:28.520 --> 2:19:31.480 Notes, And what what would really be damaging if if 2:19:31.520 --> 2:19:34.560 Paramount's able to buy Warner Brothers is that then they 2:19:34.600 --> 2:19:38.000 would be in charge of Nathan Fielder's rehearsal, which which 2:19:38.040 --> 2:19:43.879 does which does target the fascistic Paramount regime. Yeah, James, 2:19:43.640 --> 2:19:46.960 what's some what's some small news stories we can uh, 2:19:47.240 --> 2:19:49.560 we can go with here before our first break. 2:19:49.640 --> 2:19:52.520 Yeah, okay, I'm operating on a couple of computers here, 2:19:52.560 --> 2:19:55.760 so this is gonna I'm gonna have to work around 2:19:55.800 --> 2:19:56.599 some constraints. 2:19:56.640 --> 2:19:59.120 Fam good thing you're wearing your five eleven uniform to 2:19:59.160 --> 2:20:01.240 help maintain the discipline necessary. 2:20:01.680 --> 2:20:02.000 Girls. 2:20:02.000 --> 2:20:04.039 And this is not five eleven, my friend, this is 2:20:04.120 --> 2:20:07.080 five dot one dot one. Yeah, you can all get 2:20:07.080 --> 2:20:09.480 this ship outside of Syria and Iraq, and I fucking 2:20:09.560 --> 2:20:09.840 love it. 2:20:10.160 --> 2:20:14.000 Yeah yeah. I still have my knockoff Timberland shirt which 2:20:14.080 --> 2:20:17.360 just says fixing gand and looks honestly, the label looks 2:20:17.400 --> 2:20:19.800 like an AI slop tried to put the Timberland logo. 2:20:19.840 --> 2:20:20.440 It's amazing. 2:20:20.480 --> 2:20:23.400 My favorite is the one that just says sixteen five 2:20:23.720 --> 2:20:26.520 plus eleven. I love fake five eleven. 2:20:26.520 --> 2:20:26.720 Shit. 2:20:26.800 --> 2:20:28.640 If you have fake five eleven ship, I have a 2:20:28.680 --> 2:20:31.160 collection of it. Send it to me. I will retire 2:20:31.200 --> 2:20:33.879 and make a museum one day. I cannot get enough 2:20:33.920 --> 2:20:35.280 of it. I love that it started as a rock 2:20:35.280 --> 2:20:37.200 climbing brand in New Smite and now it is a 2:20:37.240 --> 2:20:38.800 lifestyle brand in Syria. 2:20:39.160 --> 2:20:39.879 It's perfect. 2:20:40.360 --> 2:20:43.520 I tell you, I missed my Adodus tracksuit that I got. 2:20:43.280 --> 2:20:46.680 A I got some I got some merle boots as well. 2:20:47.320 --> 2:20:49.879 Yeah I love that ship. 2:20:50.200 --> 2:20:56.640 I got a fake Gerban knife graber that that yeah. 2:20:57.160 --> 2:21:02.879 Yeah, bullshit knives. Yeah, one of my. 2:21:02.800 --> 2:21:04.840 Face putting out women's hats very soon. 2:21:05.080 --> 2:21:06.000 Yeah yeah. 2:21:06.080 --> 2:21:08.800 Okay, let's talk about the news. So this is a 2:21:08.800 --> 2:21:11.520 fun one. Schroding does permit, We're going to call it. 2:21:11.800 --> 2:21:15.800 In Pensacola, somebody participating in Food not Bombs was arrested 2:21:16.200 --> 2:21:20.680 Following that, at a press conference, the city announced that 2:21:20.720 --> 2:21:23.560 a person was arrested for being in a park too late, right, 2:21:23.600 --> 2:21:25.480 I guess in Florida, of course, yeah, this is this 2:21:25.560 --> 2:21:28.199 is the most serious crime, yes, and also giving food 2:21:28.240 --> 2:21:31.119 to poor people, which is probably like a felony in Florida. 2:21:31.600 --> 2:21:34.600 So the city then announced issue have been resolved because 2:21:34.720 --> 2:21:37.240 there had been there was a permit issued to Food 2:21:37.320 --> 2:21:39.879 not Bombs for them to. 2:21:39.959 --> 2:21:42.039 Be in the park late and give people food. 2:21:42.800 --> 2:21:45.000 Food not Bombs did not apply for the permit, nor 2:21:45.040 --> 2:21:47.840 do they want the permit, right, there's no kind of 2:21:47.840 --> 2:21:49.600 That's not how Food on Bombs works. Food not Bombs 2:21:49.600 --> 2:21:52.440 is an is an action, not an entity, right like 2:21:52.560 --> 2:21:57.080 it is a protest action. The city is now reviewing 2:21:57.200 --> 2:22:00.600 if the permit is releasable under public records law, so 2:22:00.720 --> 2:22:03.560 someone can find out who attempted to white Knight food 2:22:03.600 --> 2:22:04.800 not bombs. 2:22:05.959 --> 2:22:06.279 Yeah. 2:22:06.320 --> 2:22:08.520 Some of the suggestions is as a guy who runs 2:22:08.520 --> 2:22:10.440 some kind of we will cooperate with the cops to 2:22:10.440 --> 2:22:13.720 get people off fentanyl charity, which uses some incredible AI 2:22:13.800 --> 2:22:16.600 imagery on its Instagram page. 2:22:17.080 --> 2:22:18.160 Yeah, that sounds good. 2:22:18.440 --> 2:22:21.560 Yeah, so I will keep you updated on this, this 2:22:21.720 --> 2:22:22.720 Florida story. 2:22:22.879 --> 2:22:23.560 Yeah, thanks for that. 2:22:23.640 --> 2:22:24.000 James. 2:22:24.400 --> 2:22:28.120 In the Oregon versus Trump case regarding National Guard deployment, 2:22:28.240 --> 2:22:31.520 Judge J. Biby, not normally a guy associated with WOKE, 2:22:31.920 --> 2:22:35.080 a George W. Bush appointee, has penned an extensive opinion 2:22:35.120 --> 2:22:38.000 I think of sixty four pages on the domestic violence 2:22:38.080 --> 2:22:40.280 Clause at the Constitution and how it ought to restrain 2:22:40.360 --> 2:22:42.680 the use of the Guard. So it's like a different 2:22:42.800 --> 2:22:46.440 argument than we've seen previously, right in discussions about the 2:22:46.480 --> 2:22:48.119 National Guards, because. 2:22:47.959 --> 2:22:52.000 Yeah, I've read the other judge opinion pieces, but not 2:22:52.120 --> 2:22:52.680 this one. 2:22:53.160 --> 2:22:53.560 Yeah. 2:22:53.720 --> 2:22:56.039 So Biby's been been in it for a while, and ye, 2:22:56.200 --> 2:22:59.600 like he's been someone who has previously not really been 2:22:59.640 --> 2:23:01.400 in a post of what I might see as of 2:23:01.560 --> 2:23:04.160 overreach in terms of state power and violence. 2:23:04.560 --> 2:23:05.520 But yeah, using this. 2:23:05.520 --> 2:23:07.680 This is a different close at a constitution, right, So 2:23:07.800 --> 2:23:12.200 it's now moving along in that discussion. Yesterday as we're 2:23:12.240 --> 2:23:14.800 recording this, so that would be on Tuesday. At the 2:23:14.879 --> 2:23:18.119 ninth the Democrats held they buy cameral shadow quote unquote 2:23:18.160 --> 2:23:21.599 shadow hearing on the detention of US citizens by DHS 2:23:22.240 --> 2:23:24.280 that doesn't really have the power to do much. And 2:23:24.320 --> 2:23:26.039 I have not had time to listen to the entire 2:23:26.480 --> 2:23:29.480 recording because it was only streamed on Facebook. I love 2:23:29.520 --> 2:23:31.119 that we have an opposition in this country. 2:23:31.440 --> 2:23:32.880 God, I love the Democrats. 2:23:33.080 --> 2:23:36.120 Yeah, they're really I like how together they've got it, 2:23:36.160 --> 2:23:38.760 like after a rough patch, they're really firing out. 2:23:39.040 --> 2:23:43.080 Yeah, like a phoenix from the ashes of an absolute 2:23:43.120 --> 2:23:44.400 ass for being in the election. 2:23:44.640 --> 2:23:46.959 Yeah, yeah, like an ass phoenix exactly. 2:23:47.040 --> 2:23:50.000 Yeah, ass phoenix. That's that's my band. Actually, I can't 2:23:50.040 --> 2:23:51.680 believe that you plugged us on there. 2:23:51.720 --> 2:23:53.320 Thank you. Okay. 2:23:53.760 --> 2:23:57.440 Trump's ongoing barrage of hate about Somali people has been 2:23:57.440 --> 2:23:59.959 met with some incredible posting. People who are not on 2:24:00.160 --> 2:24:02.920 x dot com will have miss this, but like genuinely 2:24:02.959 --> 2:24:05.360 some of the funniest response to some of the most 2:24:05.400 --> 2:24:09.400 hateful shit. Like Trump and Miller have both been on 2:24:09.440 --> 2:24:13.240 a and I guess Fox News. Fox News went to 2:24:13.360 --> 2:24:16.200 Minneapolis and heard a call to prayer and had a 2:24:16.240 --> 2:24:19.280 meltdown about it. But this is this campaign, I guess 2:24:19.320 --> 2:24:22.520 by Trump and Miller is very much ongoing. We spoke 2:24:22.520 --> 2:24:24.560 about that last week with a TPS and people an't familiar. 2:24:24.600 --> 2:24:27.280 They can check that out last week. Yeah, Aileen Higgins 2:24:27.720 --> 2:24:31.400 won the Miami mayoral election. Do I want to make 2:24:31.400 --> 2:24:32.080 a pit bull joke? 2:24:33.160 --> 2:24:35.680 The dog you're talking about, mister worldwide? 2:24:35.840 --> 2:24:37.879 Well, we could do. Margat is a major issue. I'm 2:24:37.879 --> 2:24:39.119 just trying to work on that acronym. 2:24:39.680 --> 2:24:43.480 Oh God, because I'm always thinking about mister worldwide James's 2:24:43.520 --> 2:24:45.000 He's never a far from my thoughts. 2:24:45.200 --> 2:24:47.720 No, I often think about Pitbull and how he and 2:24:47.760 --> 2:24:49.880 Hillary Clinton often were exactly the same thing. 2:24:50.360 --> 2:24:52.480 That's right, they have a lot in common. Actually, the 2:24:53.520 --> 2:24:54.200 primary thing is. 2:24:59.320 --> 2:25:02.440 Yeah, yeah, I don't know, yes, but this is the 2:25:02.440 --> 2:25:05.400 first time a Democrat has won the mayoral office in 2:25:05.440 --> 2:25:07.920 Miami in almost thirty years, which is and it is 2:25:08.000 --> 2:25:09.119 wild significant. 2:25:09.720 --> 2:25:10.560 This is astonishing. 2:25:10.680 --> 2:25:10.880 Yeah. 2:25:10.920 --> 2:25:13.120 Yeah, this was like a pretty decent win. This was 2:25:13.200 --> 2:25:16.480 a runoff election, but it's still a pretty pretty substantial win. 2:25:16.560 --> 2:25:18.800 Yeah, And I think there's there's There's a few important 2:25:18.800 --> 2:25:21.880 notes here. One is that even the Miami Cuba demographics 2:25:21.879 --> 2:25:25.520 swung massively towards the Democrats, which is sort of apocalyptic 2:25:25.560 --> 2:25:29.160 news for the Republicans, really really bad. If you're losing 2:25:29.160 --> 2:25:30.920 the Miami Cuban population. 2:25:30.720 --> 2:25:36.720 If you have got Miami Cubans to think critically about politics, 2:25:37.440 --> 2:25:40.080 things are dire. Yeah. 2:25:39.720 --> 2:25:42.560 And and the other thing here too is that the 2:25:42.600 --> 2:25:47.040 Florida Democratic Party, like I would compare them to clowns, 2:25:47.080 --> 2:25:50.000 but like these these motherfuckers make Bobo the Clown look 2:25:50.040 --> 2:25:53.120 like fucking Napoleon. These are the most some of the 2:25:53.160 --> 2:25:56.680 most incompetent people the entire history of politics, and the 2:25:56.720 --> 2:25:59.800 Republicans are losing to them. That's astonished. 2:26:00.760 --> 2:26:04.440 There were a couple of other results like this, Yeah, 2:26:04.800 --> 2:26:08.160 this week, Democrats flipped a Georgia State House seat. The 2:26:08.200 --> 2:26:10.680 seat moved blue by twenty two points. 2:26:10.840 --> 2:26:11.760 Geez yep. 2:26:12.200 --> 2:26:16.480 They flipped Albuquerque City council. There's all of these little results, 2:26:16.520 --> 2:26:18.760 and this has been happening basically since we got the 2:26:18.760 --> 2:26:22.680 first special elections of the Trump administration, where the Republicans 2:26:22.680 --> 2:26:25.320 are losing like ar plus twenty two districts. They're getting 2:26:25.320 --> 2:26:27.720 destroyed in places that it shouldn't be possible for them 2:26:27.720 --> 2:26:31.160 to lose. And this is another major confirmation of the 2:26:31.240 --> 2:26:34.440 media everyone hates them theory. Every day it gets more 2:26:34.480 --> 2:26:37.760 and more validated. Everyone can hate them. 2:26:38.160 --> 2:26:40.920 Yeah, last a small news story that I think is 2:26:40.959 --> 2:26:43.640 worth mentioning because it's a I think pretty important. Actually, 2:26:43.920 --> 2:26:47.840 conservative podcaster Benny Johnson is threatening to sue Milo Iianopolis 2:26:47.840 --> 2:26:51.040 for alleging that he is gay. So we're gonna be 2:26:51.160 --> 2:26:53.959 keeping up with this story pretty close. I know this 2:26:54.000 --> 2:26:56.720 has a lot of ramifications for listeners. 2:26:57.320 --> 2:27:09.560 Yeah, great, cool, we should do ads. 2:27:15.600 --> 2:27:19.279 We're back and we're talking about the January sixth pipe 2:27:19.280 --> 2:27:20.760 bomb guy suspect. 2:27:21.320 --> 2:27:21.879 Yeah. 2:27:22.360 --> 2:27:24.560 Well, I mean, we know there's a person. We don't 2:27:24.560 --> 2:27:26.199 know that it was a guy. We know someone planted 2:27:26.240 --> 2:27:28.439 those pipe bombs. I'm going to talk about the suspect. 2:27:28.520 --> 2:27:28.600 Ye. 2:27:29.360 --> 2:27:31.200 I want to start just for a little bit by 2:27:31.680 --> 2:27:35.000 again talking about the degree to which I really hope 2:27:35.000 --> 2:27:38.840 this is apocalyptic for the Blaze. Yeah, what they did 2:27:39.040 --> 2:27:41.840 is a case study and what you should never do 2:27:42.120 --> 2:27:47.640 as a publication. It was unethical, it was idiotic, and 2:27:47.720 --> 2:27:51.920 it was deeply dangerous. And if the Capitol police officer 2:27:52.160 --> 2:27:54.600 does not sue them. I don't know what kind of 2:27:54.640 --> 2:27:57.040 advice she's getting other than maybe just sheer terror at 2:27:57.040 --> 2:27:59.920 the number of death threats she's already received. But like ma'am, 2:28:00.200 --> 2:28:02.360 getting all of Glennbeck's money is the only thing that 2:28:02.440 --> 2:28:04.760 will keep you safe right now. Please do it now. 2:28:04.840 --> 2:28:07.800 Yeah, So you were out last week when we got 2:28:08.879 --> 2:28:11.480 some the very first reporting on the pipe bomb arrest. 2:28:11.640 --> 2:28:13.920 Yeah, I know, is the only thing I regret about 2:28:13.920 --> 2:28:14.520 my vacation. 2:28:15.120 --> 2:28:17.959 Yeah, but very little information was out last week, and 2:28:18.040 --> 2:28:22.240 we have more information now regarding the alleged January sixth 2:28:22.280 --> 2:28:26.039 pipe bomber, or technically January fifth pipe bomber, who is 2:28:26.080 --> 2:28:28.920 now charged with transporting an explosive device with attempt to kill, 2:28:28.959 --> 2:28:32.320 injure or damaged property, and attempted malicious destruction by means 2:28:32.360 --> 2:28:36.560 of fire and explosive materials. According to court records, the 2:28:36.680 --> 2:28:42.160 FBI identified the suspect through cell tower records, license plate readers, 2:28:42.560 --> 2:28:47.000 and purchases of potential bomb making materials, including the pipes, 2:28:47.080 --> 2:28:51.360 the cap ends, the wires, steel, and nine volt batteries. 2:28:52.040 --> 2:28:55.880 It doesn't appear that they gained possession of new information, 2:28:56.520 --> 2:28:59.240 but by changing the agents looking at the information they 2:28:59.280 --> 2:29:03.720 were able to piece piece this together to actually make 2:29:03.760 --> 2:29:05.520 inaction on it, leading to the arrest. 2:29:05.560 --> 2:29:07.720 So it's a classic FBI story of they had all 2:29:07.760 --> 2:29:09.879 the information they needed to have caught this guy very 2:29:09.920 --> 2:29:12.759 long ago and did not yeah. 2:29:12.560 --> 2:29:14.440 Right, or lack the ability to like put the piece 2:29:14.480 --> 2:29:17.040 together in a way that makes them able to do arrest. 2:29:17.320 --> 2:29:19.039 But as is always the case, this was not an 2:29:19.080 --> 2:29:21.480 issue if they didn't have enough access to information. There 2:29:21.560 --> 2:29:24.760 was too much encryptied there, you know, they need more power. No, 2:29:24.840 --> 2:29:27.240 they had everything they needed. They just didn't think right, 2:29:27.840 --> 2:29:29.480 That's what it was. They weren't thinking right, you know. 2:29:30.520 --> 2:29:33.960 Still, very little has come out officially about the alleged 2:29:33.959 --> 2:29:35.440 bomber's potential motivation. 2:29:36.080 --> 2:29:39.679 Who may be innocent, let's be clear, Yeah, yeah, yeah. 2:29:39.280 --> 2:29:42.680 There's nothing alluding to his motivation in the charging documents 2:29:42.920 --> 2:29:46.199 besides just an interest, a year's long interest in bombmaking, 2:29:46.760 --> 2:29:51.280 starting in twenty nineteen and continuing into like twenty twenty one. Now, 2:29:51.440 --> 2:29:56.400 NBC has reported based on sources inside the law enforcement 2:29:56.440 --> 2:30:00.920 investigation team, but Embassy's reported that before for the suspect 2:30:00.920 --> 2:30:04.800 acquired an attorney, he confessed to investigators and told the 2:30:04.840 --> 2:30:09.000 FBI that he believed in twenty twenty election conspiracy theories. 2:30:10.360 --> 2:30:13.320 But some new information from the New York Post, which 2:30:13.320 --> 2:30:16.960 I have verified, may have actually cracked this story wide open. 2:30:17.840 --> 2:30:23.280 They have learned that the suspect is a Brony. My 2:30:23.320 --> 2:30:27.760 Little Pony fan draws a lot of actually relatively good 2:30:27.840 --> 2:30:30.879 quality My Little Pony fan art and writes fins my 2:30:30.920 --> 2:30:34.080 Little Pony fan fiction. I could read some here. 2:30:33.879 --> 2:30:36.679 Garrison, what is the quality of their fan fiction? Yeah's 2:30:36.680 --> 2:30:38.160 just just give us like fifteen minutes. 2:30:38.560 --> 2:30:41.760 I'll read a paragraph. Quote Apple Bloom's eyes. It snapped 2:30:41.760 --> 2:30:44.400 open and she sat up in her bed, hinting heavily 2:30:44.520 --> 2:30:47.280 and sweat dripping from her red mane. It was another 2:30:47.360 --> 2:30:50.200 bad dream about that village she had discovered back in 2:30:50.240 --> 2:30:53.880 the ever Free Forest sunny Town. At first, it seemed 2:30:53.920 --> 2:30:57.160 like a normal, peaceful little village, kind of like Ponyville. 2:30:57.760 --> 2:31:00.280 What was strange was that none of the inhabitants had 2:31:00.360 --> 2:31:03.680 qut marks. In fact, they hadn't the slightest clue as 2:31:03.680 --> 2:31:05.039 to what a qutie mark was. 2:31:05.800 --> 2:31:07.160 So could you send me that link? 2:31:08.560 --> 2:31:08.720 Yeah? 2:31:08.760 --> 2:31:09.039 Thank you. 2:31:09.200 --> 2:31:12.279 H I'll actually I'll send this to the entire team chat. 2:31:12.879 --> 2:31:17.920 I'm demanding Hazard pay at the next union negotiations hazard pay. 2:31:18.400 --> 2:31:22.039 Actually like this is very standard but relatively good quality. 2:31:22.040 --> 2:31:26.240 My Little Pony broni activity non sexual entirely Like. I've 2:31:26.240 --> 2:31:29.160 looked at a lot of this guy's art. It's fairly clear, pros, 2:31:29.640 --> 2:31:31.920 fairly high quality. My Little Pony fan are in a 2:31:32.000 --> 2:31:34.760 variety of styles from different eras oft the show not 2:31:34.959 --> 2:31:38.000 like a sexually fetishistic depiction. 2:31:38.440 --> 2:31:41.039 Can't wait to see the headlines from this. Yeah, cool 2:31:41.120 --> 2:31:44.439 Zone host defends Capital bipe bombers pros. 2:31:45.600 --> 2:31:46.039 But no like. 2:31:46.080 --> 2:31:49.800 A high school classmate told Washington Post that he was 2:31:49.840 --> 2:31:52.680 bullied for having My Little Pony backpack in school. 2:31:52.760 --> 2:31:53.480 Yeah, that makes sense. 2:31:53.840 --> 2:31:55.840 He's had this interest for quite a while, kind of 2:31:56.080 --> 2:31:59.240 kind of tapered off a few years before before the bombing, 2:31:59.600 --> 2:32:01.520 But for a while this was like kind of one 2:32:01.520 --> 2:32:05.720 of his main hobbies. On a Tumblr profile, he lists 2:32:05.720 --> 2:32:10.720 his interest as quote hardcore music, video games, mainly horror drawing, 2:32:11.160 --> 2:32:17.080 improving myself philosophically, and anime. Unquote. Well, his grandmother has 2:32:17.080 --> 2:32:20.920 described him as quote almost autistic, like because he doesn't 2:32:21.000 --> 2:32:22.360 understand a lot of stuff. 2:32:22.480 --> 2:32:23.039 Unquote. 2:32:23.280 --> 2:32:26.240 He's only ever worked for the family bail bond business. 2:32:26.480 --> 2:32:31.160 Yeah, well, I mean, look, I'll say this, he wasn't bad, 2:32:31.520 --> 2:32:34.160 Like he could have had a future in a private 2:32:34.200 --> 2:32:36.800 security or something like that, like not bad ops as 2:32:36.800 --> 2:32:39.360 it turned out. Yeah, but I don't know. 2:32:39.959 --> 2:32:42.480 A funny slash a dark thing is that in the 2:32:42.600 --> 2:32:45.840 right wace just desperate effort to make everything about trans people. 2:32:46.080 --> 2:32:48.880 They have turned this Brony thing into like a you 2:32:48.879 --> 2:32:52.280 know the trans people also like my little pony and 2:32:52.400 --> 2:32:55.760 like Bronie and like like quotes from like psychologists in 2:32:56.080 --> 2:32:59.120 some of these articles about how how how Bronie is 2:32:59.200 --> 2:33:04.520 like play with like gender boundaries by by being fans 2:33:04.560 --> 2:33:08.240 of like a girl's, like a propery that's usually enjoyed 2:33:08.240 --> 2:33:11.560 by girls. So this was like a slight attempt to 2:33:11.600 --> 2:33:13.879 try to kind of paint this and like in like 2:33:13.920 --> 2:33:17.039 a pseudo translate, but that's not getting much traction because 2:33:17.040 --> 2:33:18.760 like people know what Bronie's are, and like, come on, 2:33:19.080 --> 2:33:21.360 I think this, this whole strategy is is on the 2:33:21.400 --> 2:33:22.400 out in some ways. 2:33:22.760 --> 2:33:25.200 Yeah, am I am I incorrect here because I had 2:33:25.240 --> 2:33:26.880 just caught this, but I didn't. Actually this is like 2:33:26.920 --> 2:33:28.720 while I was on vacation, I had heard that he 2:33:28.800 --> 2:33:31.160 expressed a belief that the twenty twenty election was stolen 2:33:31.160 --> 2:33:31.560 from Trump. 2:33:31.640 --> 2:33:32.720 Yeah, that's see. 2:33:32.720 --> 2:33:34.720 Do we know if that's accurate? Okay, Okay, so he 2:33:34.760 --> 2:33:35.600 does seem that's been. 2:33:35.600 --> 2:33:39.160 Reported by the NBC that that he told investigators that 2:33:39.240 --> 2:33:44.320 he believed in like twenty twenty election conspiracy theories. Okay, 2:33:44.360 --> 2:33:45.760 the ones that were spread by Trump. 2:33:46.040 --> 2:33:47.920 So, I mean it seems like, from what we have, 2:33:48.040 --> 2:33:51.440 one of the more predictable ones. And like it's not 2:33:51.840 --> 2:33:54.600 if this is like a weird right wing you know, Bronie. 2:33:54.600 --> 2:33:57.600 This is not the first time right wing Bronie has 2:33:57.680 --> 2:33:58.640 done something violent. 2:33:58.720 --> 2:34:01.400 He doesn't seem super politic in my opinion, like none 2:34:01.440 --> 2:34:06.279 of his owne activity points towards a deep interest in politics. 2:34:07.160 --> 2:34:09.480 No, but if he said he thought the election was stolen, 2:34:09.560 --> 2:34:12.680 then that makes sense as being a contributing fact. 2:34:12.720 --> 2:34:17.760 Yeah, a factor perhaps, but not a huge like online 2:34:17.840 --> 2:34:20.760 presence that revolves around politics. Like a lot of people 2:34:20.760 --> 2:34:23.480 who aren't super into politics maybe thought the election was 2:34:23.480 --> 2:34:24.760 like stolen or like rigged. 2:34:24.920 --> 2:34:27.560 I mean, as we try to point out periodically, the 2:34:27.640 --> 2:34:30.000 vast majority of people who will carry out a shooting 2:34:30.160 --> 2:34:33.600 or other act of mass public violence in the US 2:34:34.000 --> 2:34:36.000 are going to have more in common with other people 2:34:36.040 --> 2:34:40.080 who do that than anyone specifically, just in political terms 2:34:40.240 --> 2:34:43.200 for the most part, because most of them are you know, 2:34:43.280 --> 2:34:46.400 there's their shooter stands there, they're they're that sort of thing, 2:34:46.560 --> 2:34:49.279 like this is their special interest bombings or whatever. 2:34:49.560 --> 2:34:51.039 He does seem to have, Like it's a lot of 2:34:51.080 --> 2:34:53.640 special interests, right. It used to be my little ponies, 2:34:54.160 --> 2:34:56.720 then it became bomb making that just seemed to be 2:34:56.800 --> 2:34:59.680 a special interest of his for like three or four years. 2:34:59.879 --> 2:35:01.879 Was just like the practice of bomb making. This is 2:35:01.920 --> 2:35:04.080 just just something he got like into, And I think 2:35:04.120 --> 2:35:07.040 that's more of a motivating force and like a specific 2:35:07.240 --> 2:35:09.920 partisan political motivation. And I think it's really funny, like 2:35:09.920 --> 2:35:14.400 reflecting on a statement that that that law enforcement leaked 2:35:14.520 --> 2:35:17.039 last week saying that he had like anarchist like leanings, 2:35:17.040 --> 2:35:19.720 which is very very amusing now in light of in 2:35:19.760 --> 2:35:21.560 light of all of that, for a long. 2:35:21.400 --> 2:35:24.920 Time, they have used anarchism to mean like a predilection 2:35:25.040 --> 2:35:26.400 for violence or chaos. 2:35:26.720 --> 2:35:30.800 Doesn't less like the government, right, Like yeah, yeah, part 2:35:30.800 --> 2:35:32.400 of this is just the way people tend to use 2:35:32.440 --> 2:35:34.840 the term anarchism. When I was doing my research for 2:35:34.920 --> 2:35:38.080 like the nuclear Doomstate device episodes, there's a bunch of 2:35:38.120 --> 2:35:40.280 otherwise great pieces that are like and then in the 2:35:40.520 --> 2:35:43.080 in the wake of a global nuclear war, society will 2:35:43.120 --> 2:35:46.480 collapse and all that will be left is anarchy. It's like, guys, like, 2:35:46.560 --> 2:35:48.800 it's not anarchy. That's that's going to be the problem 2:35:48.879 --> 2:35:52.480 that like, like you realize that the cause of a 2:35:52.560 --> 2:35:58.039 nuclear war is like, yeah, all of this, Yeah, it's 2:35:58.200 --> 2:36:01.920 it is not an anarchy as opposed to nuclear war. 2:36:01.959 --> 2:36:06.840 I'm worried about, for example, Yeah, yeah, then yeah, I'm 2:36:06.879 --> 2:36:11.600 worried about like democracy, fucking authoritarianism. I'm worried about all 2:36:11.600 --> 2:36:14.360 of those things. Anarchists would never have built the nuclear 2:36:14.400 --> 2:36:15.279 doom sdat of fights. 2:36:15.840 --> 2:36:17.280 Yeah. Yeah. 2:36:17.320 --> 2:36:20.560 It's why I used left libertarian sometimes in my academic writing, 2:36:20.600 --> 2:36:24.120 because it was just the term. It's just not comprehensible, 2:36:24.240 --> 2:36:27.920 especially someone coming having been raised on US media. 2:36:27.560 --> 2:36:29.720 And in the wake of a global nuclear war, you'll 2:36:29.760 --> 2:36:32.119 be lucky to get some anarchy because it probably means 2:36:32.120 --> 2:36:34.520 someone's found some food and it's cooking it for you. 2:36:34.879 --> 2:36:37.800 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Food no bombs on like food off. 2:36:37.840 --> 2:36:40.800 They've rebranded, but that's still going food common. 2:36:41.000 --> 2:36:45.120 Yeah, bomb is actually done with bombs. 2:36:48.680 --> 2:36:49.240 We did it. 2:36:49.320 --> 2:36:49.640 Yeah. 2:36:51.200 --> 2:36:55.240 Food One other update. I'll squeeze in here quick. 2:36:55.240 --> 2:36:55.800 It's short. 2:36:55.879 --> 2:36:56.080 Yeah. 2:36:56.160 --> 2:36:58.879 Last week, the Supreme Court ruled that Texas can use 2:36:58.920 --> 2:37:02.480 its newly on congressional map in the upcoming twenty twenty 2:37:02.520 --> 2:37:05.400 six midterms, likely adding five Republican seats. 2:37:06.240 --> 2:37:07.760 The lower court order, which. 2:37:07.600 --> 2:37:10.840 Found the new map was racially jerry mannered intentionally, has 2:37:10.879 --> 2:37:15.440 been stayed indefinitely as the Supreme Court prepares to consider 2:37:15.520 --> 2:37:19.640 whether to overturn the lower court's ruling entirely, a process 2:37:19.640 --> 2:37:22.960 which could take months go well into the midterm cycle. 2:37:23.360 --> 2:37:26.360 So the Supreme Court is authorized the use of that 2:37:26.440 --> 2:37:28.640 new map for this next election. 2:37:29.560 --> 2:37:33.360 Talking of fan fiction and covers of things, here is 2:37:33.760 --> 2:37:36.879 a song that was originally the worst song by the 2:37:36.879 --> 2:37:39.040 Clash and now it's about tariffs. 2:37:43.720 --> 2:37:53.880 Jazz right jazz Bo Sorry, Locking jazz Bomb, Locking jazz Bob. 2:37:55.600 --> 2:37:57.640 I think the cover is of a similar quality as 2:37:57.680 --> 2:38:02.240 the alleged Bombers fan art in my opinion, Dear God, 2:38:02.560 --> 2:38:04.680 there's a lot of good twilight sparkle stuff that he 2:38:05.280 --> 2:38:05.680 was draw in. 2:38:05.720 --> 2:38:09.400 Come sorry, So all right. 2:38:09.560 --> 2:38:15.840 China is technically once again buying American soybeans. Is part 2:38:15.879 --> 2:38:19.200 of the sort of giant trade deal that Chi Jinping 2:38:19.400 --> 2:38:24.400 and Trump negotiated, but come it is not buying soybeans 2:38:24.400 --> 2:38:25.960 at the rate that the White House said it would 2:38:25.959 --> 2:38:27.760 in the fact sheet that was released by the White 2:38:27.760 --> 2:38:31.720 House about the negotiations. This is a huge problem because 2:38:32.600 --> 2:38:36.440 farmers are still not being able to sell enough soybeans 2:38:36.480 --> 2:38:40.800 to not get completely fucked, and the White House is 2:38:40.800 --> 2:38:42.560 now putting out a bunch of statements saying, oh no, 2:38:42.640 --> 2:38:44.680 we actually screwed up the fact sheet. They said that 2:38:44.720 --> 2:38:47.360 they would buy the soybeans not before the end of 2:38:47.400 --> 2:38:49.120 the year, before they at the end of like the 2:38:49.160 --> 2:38:50.039 growing season. 2:38:50.120 --> 2:38:51.760 That's good, that's good. 2:38:52.400 --> 2:38:56.360 Yeah. So and his other solution to this has been 2:38:57.000 --> 2:39:01.080 a twelve billion dollar farmer bail which is funny because 2:39:01.120 --> 2:39:03.280 he did a twelve billion dollar farm bailout in his 2:39:03.400 --> 2:39:06.200 first term when exactly the same thing happened and it 2:39:06.320 --> 2:39:07.160 didn't really do anything. 2:39:07.240 --> 2:39:09.480 Well, at least we're not bailing out let's say Argentina. 2:39:09.720 --> 2:39:12.000 Funny example, Garston, what makes you choose that one? 2:39:12.320 --> 2:39:13.840 Oh god? Yeah. 2:39:13.879 --> 2:39:14.000 So. 2:39:14.480 --> 2:39:17.520 The issue with this farmer's bailout is, and this is 2:39:17.560 --> 2:39:20.760 something that farmers have been saying through all of the 2:39:20.840 --> 2:39:23.920 trade press, any regular press. They can get access to, 2:39:24.000 --> 2:39:28.640 every local media outlet. Every single farmer who anyone has 2:39:28.680 --> 2:39:31.520 interviewed has gone, we don't want to bail out. We 2:39:31.560 --> 2:39:34.640 want to be able to sell our blasted soybeans, and 2:39:34.680 --> 2:39:37.760 they still can't. And this is, you know, a becoming 2:39:37.840 --> 2:39:41.640 a real problem for this administration that even after their 2:39:41.720 --> 2:39:43.879 giant negotiations to get tried out of by soybeans, they 2:39:43.879 --> 2:39:46.959 still can't do it. And farmers are continuing to be 2:39:47.560 --> 2:39:51.119 very very pissed off about this. Where are my beans? Yeah, 2:39:51.400 --> 2:39:54.880 they're sitting in the silos, They're still there. They can't 2:39:54.879 --> 2:39:55.360 sell them. 2:39:55.400 --> 2:39:57.119 How am I going to keep up my soy consumption 2:39:57.560 --> 2:39:59.880 and going to be for us to become a known 2:40:00.120 --> 2:40:02.360 the vegan Ocean era some other kind of boy, I guess. 2:40:02.800 --> 2:40:04.480 Yeah, Well, we'll just have to get it from Brazil. 2:40:04.520 --> 2:40:05.960 Ands that Brazil mentioned. 2:40:06.000 --> 2:40:08.360 Everyone cheer, Hey, they're doing good these days. 2:40:09.360 --> 2:40:12.480 Oh yeah, hasn't there been some Bolsonnaro news recently? 2:40:12.600 --> 2:40:13.119 I feel like. 2:40:13.120 --> 2:40:15.200 There has been. Let's roll to ads and then we'll 2:40:15.240 --> 2:40:15.840 talk about it. 2:40:16.040 --> 2:40:23.040 Okay, this has been ur talk. 2:40:30.720 --> 2:40:33.680 We're back, and you know who's not free to listen 2:40:33.720 --> 2:40:39.760 to podcasts? Hear Bolsonnaro. We can hope after trying to 2:40:39.879 --> 2:40:43.120 cut off his ankle monitor. He has been taken into 2:40:43.160 --> 2:40:47.800 custody for attempting or probably trying to escape. Trump had 2:40:47.800 --> 2:40:52.280 made comments about it, expecting to see him soon. Yeah, 2:40:52.360 --> 2:40:54.160 I don't think. I think he's going to die in prison. 2:40:54.800 --> 2:40:57.080 He's not doing well. I will say one thing we 2:40:57.160 --> 2:40:59.439 got to do. You know, back when he got stabbed, 2:40:59.640 --> 2:41:02.440 I think everyone's opinion on it was like, oh, fuck, 2:41:02.480 --> 2:41:04.760 you've just you know, you've made him a martyr. You 2:41:04.840 --> 2:41:07.200 got to look cool and seem like a bad ass. 2:41:07.280 --> 2:41:09.039 This has done nothing but empower him. 2:41:09.200 --> 2:41:09.959 Yeah, no, it cares. 2:41:10.120 --> 2:41:10.160 No. 2:41:10.320 --> 2:41:13.360 Actually that stab did a lot of damage, Like that 2:41:13.560 --> 2:41:15.480 ruined his life, low key. 2:41:15.440 --> 2:41:15.520 Ye. 2:41:15.800 --> 2:41:18.720 So thoughts and prayers to that guy wherever he is. 2:41:19.160 --> 2:41:21.480 You know, we just didn't realize the level of game 2:41:21.520 --> 2:41:22.560 that you had, my man. 2:41:23.040 --> 2:41:24.959 No, I mean it's it's it's tough. I mean we 2:41:25.080 --> 2:41:27.520 used to have the two like of the world sickest men, 2:41:27.920 --> 2:41:30.400 Bolsonaro and Stephen Crowder just fighting it out to see 2:41:30.400 --> 2:41:31.879 who would stay sicker for a long But. 2:41:32.040 --> 2:41:34.160 Jordan Peterson that seems like erasia. 2:41:34.600 --> 2:41:38.520 Yeah, he's taking the spot because he's still vanished from 2:41:38.520 --> 2:41:40.320 the Daily Wire because of his like. 2:41:40.560 --> 2:41:43.080 Bizarre His daughter says he's basically dead. 2:41:43.280 --> 2:41:46.400 Yeah, he's like patient zero for CWD and humans or something. 2:41:46.480 --> 2:41:50.200 Right, Like the Daily Wire still is acting like Peterson's 2:41:50.280 --> 2:41:51.119 is like still a person. 2:41:51.440 --> 2:41:55.200 Yeah, it turns out Cold Turkey quitting Benzos via a 2:41:55.520 --> 2:41:58.039 fucking coma in Russia is a bad call. 2:41:58.600 --> 2:42:01.640 Speaking of Crowder, I did watch the two hours Stephen 2:42:01.680 --> 2:42:05.400 Crowder Nick Fuente's interview this week. Oh god, and it 2:42:05.560 --> 2:42:08.000 was really uncomfortable. 2:42:08.280 --> 2:42:10.360 Yeah, I'll bet I can imagine. 2:42:10.760 --> 2:42:12.959 They were just like jerking each other off for two hours. 2:42:13.240 --> 2:42:15.720 Nick was trying to be nice and like not act 2:42:15.840 --> 2:42:19.520 like Steven's this like like totally irrelevant like boomer, and 2:42:19.560 --> 2:42:22.480 Stephen was trying to make Nick think he was cool, 2:42:22.520 --> 2:42:24.760 and it was so painful to watch. 2:42:24.480 --> 2:42:25.400 The entire time. 2:42:25.959 --> 2:42:27.960 Sat Yeah, it was. 2:42:28.120 --> 2:42:30.600 It was bad. There was nothing else notable from that. 2:42:31.160 --> 2:42:34.440 I guess let's actually move to some notable notable stories 2:42:34.480 --> 2:42:35.680 to close this episode. 2:42:36.280 --> 2:42:38.879 Yeah, so I want to talk about the case of 2:42:38.920 --> 2:42:43.160 Faustino Pablo Pablo. A US District court in El Paso, 2:42:43.280 --> 2:42:47.000 Texas has grown too Mister Pablo Pablo a tentative restraining 2:42:47.120 --> 2:42:50.400 order directing the government to return him to the United 2:42:50.440 --> 2:42:53.200 States by the twelfth of this month, which will be 2:42:53.200 --> 2:42:53.959 the day that you were. 2:42:53.879 --> 2:42:58.199 Hearing this episode. Mister Pablo Pablo enter the USA in twenty. 2:42:57.920 --> 2:43:01.680 Twelve and was found removal by However, that judge granted 2:43:01.680 --> 2:43:05.080 his application for withholding of removal under the Convention against 2:43:05.200 --> 2:43:09.080 Torture because he would likely be tortured if he was 2:43:09.160 --> 2:43:12.640 returned to Guatemala, which is where he's from. In theory, 2:43:12.920 --> 2:43:16.240 he was removable therefore to a place where he would 2:43:16.240 --> 2:43:19.800 not likely be tortured. Right, this is what we've seen 2:43:19.840 --> 2:43:22.760 the US government doing more and more in the last year. Really, 2:43:23.600 --> 2:43:26.080 he spent more than a decade. He moved to California, 2:43:26.120 --> 2:43:29.039 attended his ICE check ins until he was detained at 2:43:29.040 --> 2:43:31.760 an ICE check in on the fifth of November. Mister 2:43:31.800 --> 2:43:35.320 Pablo Pablo's lawyer filed a habeas petition and asked the 2:43:35.400 --> 2:43:38.160 court to enjoin ICE from removing him from the Western 2:43:38.200 --> 2:43:40.720 District of Texas, which is where they took him on 2:43:40.760 --> 2:43:43.680 the seventeenth of November. Right, so he was detained on 2:43:43.720 --> 2:43:47.039 the fifth. People who listened to my immigration series a 2:43:47.040 --> 2:43:48.800 couple of weeks ago will be familiar with this. Right, 2:43:48.800 --> 2:43:52.200 people were detained in La ferried all around California and 2:43:52.240 --> 2:43:53.199 then sent to Texas. 2:43:53.200 --> 2:43:54.400 This is what happened in his case. 2:43:55.040 --> 2:43:56.520 He wouldn't have been sent to the same place for 2:43:56.560 --> 2:43:58.680 people of my serious work, because that's for family detention. 2:43:59.400 --> 2:44:01.760 By the time the court ordered the government not to 2:44:01.800 --> 2:44:05.400 remove him, they had already sent him back to Guatemala, 2:44:05.920 --> 2:44:07.840 just to cover There is one country in the world 2:44:07.879 --> 2:44:10.800 that he has with holding of removal to because he 2:44:10.840 --> 2:44:13.240 will be tortured there most likely, and that is where 2:44:13.280 --> 2:44:16.640 they sent him. The government conceded that they had made 2:44:16.680 --> 2:44:19.480 a mistake and said they quote tentatively scheduled a flight 2:44:19.520 --> 2:44:22.640 for the fourth of December. He did not take that flight. 2:44:23.240 --> 2:44:25.560 As far as we know, he is dolling Gatemalae. He's 2:44:25.600 --> 2:44:28.080 in hiding and the court has ordered that the government 2:44:28.160 --> 2:44:31.080 facilitate his return by the twelfth of this month, so 2:44:31.360 --> 2:44:33.640 we'll probably update you on that in next week's ed. 2:44:34.400 --> 2:44:37.640 I'm going to talk about an expansion of social media monitoring, 2:44:37.879 --> 2:44:41.360 which we've already seen for visa applicants, but now expanding 2:44:41.400 --> 2:44:44.680 out to tourists as well. Customs of Border Protection and 2:44:45.000 --> 2:44:48.480 DHS have posted a sixty day notice for a proposal 2:44:48.600 --> 2:44:54.000 to revise the electronics system for travel Authorization Application, which 2:44:54.040 --> 2:44:57.320 is a waiver that some foreign tourists can use to 2:44:57.440 --> 2:45:03.600 avoid getting a tourist visa. The proposal is to add 2:45:03.760 --> 2:45:09.039 mandatory social media collection for all foreign tourists using the 2:45:09.440 --> 2:45:14.320 ESTA visa waiver. This proposal would require that applicants provide 2:45:14.360 --> 2:45:18.280 the social media information from the past five years, citing 2:45:18.320 --> 2:45:22.320 a January Executive order quote protecting the United States from 2:45:22.440 --> 2:45:27.120 foreign terrorists and other national security and public safety threats unquote. 2:45:27.520 --> 2:45:29.560 This would match the sort of social media monitoring we've 2:45:29.560 --> 2:45:34.440 seen applied to some visa applicants and immigrants, just now 2:45:34.480 --> 2:45:39.560 extending out to tourists using the ESTA application, and to 2:45:39.640 --> 2:45:44.560 comply with this January Executive order. CBP is also planning 2:45:44.600 --> 2:45:49.440 to add quote several high value data fields to the 2:45:49.800 --> 2:45:56.320 ESTA application when feasible unquote. This would include quote telephone 2:45:56.360 --> 2:45:59.080 numbers used in the last five years, email address is 2:45:59.120 --> 2:46:02.800 used in the last ten year, IP addresses, and metadata 2:46:02.800 --> 2:46:08.440 from electronically submitted photos. Family member names, parents, spouse, siblings, children, 2:46:08.840 --> 2:46:12.640 family telephone numbers used in the last five years, family 2:46:12.680 --> 2:46:16.680 member dates of birth, family member places of birth, family 2:46:16.680 --> 2:46:23.520 member residences, biometric face, fingerprint, DNA and IRIS, business telephone 2:46:23.600 --> 2:46:26.760 numbers used in the last five years and business email 2:46:26.800 --> 2:46:30.039 addresses used in the last ten years unquote. 2:46:30.400 --> 2:46:33.400 Yeah, this is a wild amount of data. I mean 2:46:33.640 --> 2:46:35.720 they can flash some of this like really quickly again 2:46:35.760 --> 2:46:39.160 against like quote unquote watch lists, right, Yeah, but some 2:46:39.240 --> 2:46:42.920 of this A like to gather this data to gather 2:46:42.959 --> 2:46:46.360 biometric data, that's not possible with like you say, you're 2:46:46.360 --> 2:46:49.039 applying on your cell phone or your your home computer, right, 2:46:49.120 --> 2:46:51.440 so this might require an appointment. 2:46:51.720 --> 2:46:54.360 Yeah, for some of the fingerprint stuff. Part of the 2:46:54.360 --> 2:46:58.640 proposal is also requiring selfie be submitted with this application, 2:46:59.160 --> 2:47:02.240 separate from what iver is on the ID that is 2:47:02.280 --> 2:47:05.120 being used, and so they can extract some like facial 2:47:05.160 --> 2:47:08.080 biometrics from that. Yeah, but they can also they can 2:47:08.080 --> 2:47:10.520 also collect that stuff like at the airport reports of entry. 2:47:10.560 --> 2:47:13.240 They have fingerprint scanners now at a lot of these 2:47:13.320 --> 2:47:14.560 like entry kiosks. 2:47:14.800 --> 2:47:15.000 Yeah. 2:47:15.080 --> 2:47:18.360 Yeah, the selfie isn't just a selfie, it's what's called 2:47:18.360 --> 2:47:21.920 a facial liveness scan, which is what we've spoken about 2:47:21.959 --> 2:47:25.360 before with CBP one right that like notoriously was very 2:47:25.400 --> 2:47:28.520 poor at capturing black faces. Generally, you sort of have 2:47:28.600 --> 2:47:31.200 to like move the phone around your face to check 2:47:31.240 --> 2:47:33.280 that It's like, it's not me holding up a life 2:47:33.280 --> 2:47:36.080 sized copy of Garrison, it's actually Garrison. 2:47:35.959 --> 2:47:37.240 A three D Garrison. 2:47:37.360 --> 2:47:41.080 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, the Garrison mannequin that we all 2:47:41.080 --> 2:47:42.200 got for Christmas last year. 2:47:42.240 --> 2:47:43.600 Can you can excuse that one to me? 2:47:44.080 --> 2:47:46.240 Sorry, it's not legal in New York. 2:47:46.840 --> 2:47:49.720 Yeah, this will make it a lot harder for people 2:47:49.760 --> 2:47:53.240 to apply forest divisas. It's going to create a massive, 2:47:53.840 --> 2:48:00.160 like dragnet of data for people applying forest visas. Yes, 2:48:00.160 --> 2:48:05.560 seeing that kind of is the goal already, right, So, 2:48:05.640 --> 2:48:08.200 like if you live in these countries, you don't always 2:48:08.280 --> 2:48:10.240 qualify for an esther. There are certain things you could 2:48:10.240 --> 2:48:12.360 have done, certain countries you could have been to, certain 2:48:13.120 --> 2:48:16.160 like if you have a criminal record, et cetera, where 2:48:16.200 --> 2:48:18.000 there you wouldn't be able to get an esther. So 2:48:18.280 --> 2:48:20.560 this is kind of already a something of a like 2:48:20.600 --> 2:48:25.560 a pre vetted group and countries who from which systems 2:48:25.600 --> 2:48:26.480 can apply for esters? 2:48:26.560 --> 2:48:29.840 Is that in itself? It's like a tea, right, Not 2:48:29.920 --> 2:48:31.600 everyone in the world can apply for an esther. 2:48:32.440 --> 2:48:37.120 Yeah, it's already a semi exclusive waiver with like a 2:48:37.160 --> 2:48:38.120 cost burden as well. 2:48:38.680 --> 2:48:44.280 Yes, yeah, yeah, it creates a massive data data mind 2:48:44.320 --> 2:48:46.920 which I'm guessing might be what they what they're going for. 2:48:47.400 --> 2:48:49.320 Yeah, I mean, just the normalization of this sort of 2:48:49.320 --> 2:48:54.240 like social media scetting to identify, you know, undesirable political 2:48:54.240 --> 2:48:58.240 beliefs that Mark Rubio in the Department in the Department 2:48:58.240 --> 2:49:01.680 of State or DHS seems is like a national security threat. 2:49:02.160 --> 2:49:02.360 Yeah. 2:49:02.680 --> 2:49:05.640 Yeah, I also have kind of my fringe fears that 2:49:05.680 --> 2:49:12.680 this will be used to train but yeah, we'll say, yeah, 2:49:12.680 --> 2:49:16.160 how is this not going to be catastrophic for any 2:49:16.280 --> 2:49:22.400 business that relies on tourism, any state that relies on tourism, Like. 2:49:21.560 --> 2:49:23.359 Like yeah, Florida. 2:49:23.800 --> 2:49:26.720 Yeah, I know that's not the top risk, but like 2:49:27.280 --> 2:49:30.720 it just seems again they're they're they're going out of 2:49:30.760 --> 2:49:34.359 their way to fuck over every single demographic in the country, 2:49:35.400 --> 2:49:36.800 which I don't think is going to work out. 2:49:36.640 --> 2:49:37.960 For them in the long term. 2:49:38.640 --> 2:49:41.760 Yeah, it's a uh, this is yeah, this is a 2:49:41.800 --> 2:49:43.880 weird one for me because it's the Yeah, the economic 2:49:44.440 --> 2:49:45.800 cost is so obvious. 2:49:46.200 --> 2:49:48.800 It's a it's a catastrophe, And there's a part of 2:49:48.879 --> 2:49:50.920 me that's like, maybe this is a good thing, just 2:49:51.080 --> 2:49:54.640 because it's part of like, right, we've always known and 2:49:54.680 --> 2:49:57.359 have been trying to say for years every single aspect, 2:49:57.440 --> 2:50:00.080 like they these people are bad for everybody. There's like 2:50:00.080 --> 2:50:02.480 one hundred and fifty people in the country who benefit 2:50:02.520 --> 2:50:06.240 from the policies that like the most extreme parts of 2:50:06.240 --> 2:50:09.800 the right wants to push, and everyone else is going 2:50:09.840 --> 2:50:12.280 to be completely fucked over by it, and we might 2:50:12.320 --> 2:50:15.400 as well just take the mask off. And maybe that's 2:50:15.440 --> 2:50:17.280 some of what we're seeing in the collapse of Trump's 2:50:17.360 --> 2:50:19.920 approval is people realizing, like, oh my god, these guys 2:50:19.959 --> 2:50:23.960 really just want to destroy everything good about life like that. 2:50:23.959 --> 2:50:25.879 That is conservatism in a nutshell. 2:50:25.959 --> 2:50:27.240 We hate life and ourselves. 2:50:27.640 --> 2:50:30.560 Yeah yeah, well yeah, that's that was the Democratic Party 2:50:30.600 --> 2:50:31.800 in that symptoms garrison. 2:50:31.879 --> 2:50:36.320 But we want what's worse for everybody there that's yes, yeah, 2:50:37.160 --> 2:50:40.200 you got it. Yeah yeah, talking of worse for everybody. 2:50:40.320 --> 2:50:43.720 Do we want to talk about the National Security Strategy 2:50:43.760 --> 2:50:46.199 document that the Trump administration releases. 2:50:45.840 --> 2:50:46.200 Go for it. 2:50:46.320 --> 2:50:48.680 Yeah, we should do a dedicated episode about that, but 2:50:48.920 --> 2:50:50.119 we could talk briefly about it. 2:50:50.160 --> 2:50:51.280 We have fifteen minutes. 2:50:51.600 --> 2:50:53.480 That's not you saw fifteen Yeah. 2:50:53.600 --> 2:50:56.160 I've pulled a lot of quotations from it, and we're 2:50:56.160 --> 2:50:57.760 not gonna be able to discus sort of the mare. 2:50:57.800 --> 2:51:00.320 I think we will have to discuss this probably next 2:51:00.440 --> 2:51:04.400 year when we do the whole episode on it. It 2:51:04.480 --> 2:51:08.039 is one of the more like especially in terms of 2:51:08.120 --> 2:51:11.160 like foreign relations, one of the more like sort. This 2:51:11.200 --> 2:51:13.200 is our ideology, this is our outlook, and these are 2:51:13.240 --> 2:51:16.840 our goals documents that I've seen from this administration. Right, 2:51:17.600 --> 2:51:20.320 they talk about how I'll just quote from it here. 2:51:20.360 --> 2:51:22.280 American strategy since the end of the Cold War have 2:51:22.320 --> 2:51:25.440 fallen short. They have been laundry lists of wishes or 2:51:25.520 --> 2:51:28.240 desired end states, and have not clearly defined what we want, 2:51:28.560 --> 2:51:32.240 instead stated vague platitudes and have often misjudged what we 2:51:32.320 --> 2:51:37.200 should want. They talk about how they are going to 2:51:37.240 --> 2:51:40.959 retain soft power. Soft power people now familiar is a 2:51:41.000 --> 2:51:44.640 theory that Joseph Nye had an international relations It's a 2:51:44.680 --> 2:51:47.480 power to compel or persuade rather than to force. Right, 2:51:48.080 --> 2:51:51.520 the United States has been hemorrhaging soft power like someone 2:51:51.560 --> 2:51:54.119 with their artery cut, like in the last twelve months, 2:51:54.160 --> 2:51:57.720 like seft power is a fraction of what it was 2:51:57.760 --> 2:51:59.520 a year ago. I find it very odd to see 2:51:59.560 --> 2:52:02.840 them even mentioning that, to be honest, when like I mean, 2:52:02.879 --> 2:52:05.800 they have soft power of your victor orban talking of 2:52:06.040 --> 2:52:10.160 orban there's this incredible stuff about Europe. Here quote we 2:52:10.200 --> 2:52:12.640 want to support our allies in preserving the freelom and 2:52:12.680 --> 2:52:17.160 security of Europe while restoring Europe's civilizational self confidence and 2:52:17.200 --> 2:52:20.120 Western identity ha riste. 2:52:20.640 --> 2:52:23.480 Another quote that's good, this is wild. 2:52:23.680 --> 2:52:26.200 The larger issues facing Europe include the activities of the 2:52:26.240 --> 2:52:30.600 European Union, other transnational bodies undermine political liberty and sovereignty, 2:52:31.000 --> 2:52:34.480 migration policies that are transforming the continent and creating strife, 2:52:34.720 --> 2:52:38.560 censorship of free speech and suppression of political opposition, creatoring 2:52:38.600 --> 2:52:42.879 birth rates, and the loss of national identities and self confidence. 2:52:43.480 --> 2:52:47.160 Should present trends continue, the continent will be unrecognizable in 2:52:47.240 --> 2:52:49.760 twenty years or less, and then a missing skipping of 2:52:49.800 --> 2:52:52.680 it here. We want Europe to remain European. 2:52:52.879 --> 2:52:55.080 This just sounds like your average like white nationalists like 2:52:55.080 --> 2:52:55.760 Twitter posts. 2:52:56.320 --> 2:52:58.959 Yeah no, yes, it comes from Twitter, right, this is 2:52:59.000 --> 2:52:59.720 just the Twitter. 2:52:59.480 --> 2:53:03.640 Replies, like very twitter brained like types of politics. 2:53:04.000 --> 2:53:07.720 Yeah yeah, this guy has like a Greek statue avatar exactly. 2:53:08.600 --> 2:53:11.800 I think it's really fun to think of Europe being like, 2:53:12.040 --> 2:53:15.000 I'm Europe. I have a lot of self confidence issues. 2:53:15.480 --> 2:53:19.560 I can't really speak up for myself in in in 2:53:19.640 --> 2:53:23.400 big groups like the European Union, Like come on, what 2:53:23.400 --> 2:53:25.440 do you mean self confidence to grow up? 2:53:26.240 --> 2:53:27.039 Yeah, it's wild. 2:53:27.120 --> 2:53:29.480 They're like, you know, they're they're saying that, like what 2:53:29.640 --> 2:53:33.560 European people don't have enough, like like what European pride? 2:53:33.760 --> 2:53:37.600 People don't respect my Western identity Like okay, yeah. 2:53:38.320 --> 2:53:41.080 Notably, like for instance, the country of France, a country 2:53:41.080 --> 2:53:43.520 which lacks self confidence and pride in this identity. 2:53:43.600 --> 2:53:45.240 This is this has been an issue for a long time. 2:53:46.400 --> 2:53:48.360 It's it's very funny to have this in like a 2:53:48.680 --> 2:53:52.080 this is like a US foreign policy or national security documentary. 2:53:52.160 --> 2:53:54.720 Yeah, this is like these are the guiding principles of 2:53:54.720 --> 2:53:56.640 our foreign policy going forward. 2:53:56.840 --> 2:54:00.240 And they're like jerking off about like Europe remaining European. 2:54:00.640 --> 2:54:03.960 Yeah yeah, it's just like shit talking an entire continent. 2:54:04.160 --> 2:54:06.959 No, America should think Europe is gay and we should 2:54:06.959 --> 2:54:09.280 stay away from it. That's what our national security party 2:54:09.280 --> 2:54:11.959 should be is Europe is gay. We don't want to 2:54:11.959 --> 2:54:14.240 deal with whatever Europe is doing. We're America. 2:54:14.400 --> 2:54:15.520 Yeah, leave us alone. 2:54:15.680 --> 2:54:18.040 Yeah that ended really well for us in the theory. 2:54:18.879 --> 2:54:19.119 Yeah. 2:54:19.400 --> 2:54:22.440 Well, there's almost like a like a like an early 2:54:22.480 --> 2:54:25.160 twentieth century vibe to this document. They talk about the 2:54:25.240 --> 2:54:28.039 Monroe doctrine, Yeah, they do, and they talk about the 2:54:28.040 --> 2:54:31.680 Trump corrollary to the Monroe doctrine, which they define as quote, 2:54:31.680 --> 2:54:35.080 we will deny non hemispheric competitors the ability to position 2:54:35.240 --> 2:54:39.440 forces or other threatening capabilities, or to own or control 2:54:39.480 --> 2:54:44.440 strategically vital assets in our hemisphere. Which the people aren't 2:54:44.440 --> 2:54:47.160 familiar with the Monroe doctrine. It's the US sort of 2:54:47.280 --> 2:54:50.920 has a right and obligation to exercise some control over 2:54:50.959 --> 2:54:54.640 the outcome to the entire Western hemisphere, like say Venezuela. Yes, 2:54:54.760 --> 2:54:56.480 that would be one example, Keraton. 2:54:56.560 --> 2:54:59.440 Yeah, see, it's totally different from Iraq because this is 2:54:59.480 --> 2:55:02.440 on our ham So it's good intervention actually mm hmm. 2:55:03.000 --> 2:55:03.280 Yeah. 2:55:03.560 --> 2:55:05.840 Manifest destiny has given us the right to all of 2:55:05.879 --> 2:55:08.360 the Americas, and so we can we can intervene in 2:55:08.640 --> 2:55:12.520 outcomes there. There's a lot about the nation state in here, 2:55:12.560 --> 2:55:15.720 and like the idea that they quote unquote nation state 2:55:15.959 --> 2:55:21.880 should prioritize its own interests. I wonder what they're talking 2:55:21.959 --> 2:55:24.240 about there, because like we have many nations that are 2:55:24.240 --> 2:55:26.560 exclude different states all around the world, right, like the 2:55:26.680 --> 2:55:31.640 Kurds being one example, Right, like they are they saying 2:55:31.680 --> 2:55:35.240 that nations and states should always align, whilst like their 2:55:35.280 --> 2:55:38.560 special envoyage Syria is saying that he said this week 2:55:38.600 --> 2:55:41.400 the decentralization has never succeeded in the Middle East, which 2:55:41.440 --> 2:55:44.959 is a wild statement to be saying in a place 2:55:45.040 --> 2:55:48.000 where like you can drive in a single day to 2:55:48.040 --> 2:55:51.760 the sites of three different genocides from northeastern Syria, right, 2:55:51.800 --> 2:55:54.360 you can see how the place where the Armenian genocide happened, 2:55:54.520 --> 2:55:56.600 the u CD genocide, and the Anphal Like you can 2:55:56.640 --> 2:55:57.960 do that driving a day if you don't get hung 2:55:58.080 --> 2:55:58.680 up at the border. 2:55:59.040 --> 2:56:01.600 Yeah, I mean, honestly before now if we're counting some 2:56:01.640 --> 2:56:06.400 of what was done against the White Yeah, yeah, that's 2:56:06.440 --> 2:56:09.680 a little unclear at the moment, but yeah, sure yeah. 2:56:09.800 --> 2:56:11.840 Like to say that centralization is the only way from 2:56:11.840 --> 2:56:15.400 the Middle East is a wild statement. So I don't 2:56:15.400 --> 2:56:18.039 know how some of this pans out. There's also a 2:56:18.280 --> 2:56:22.360 lot here on border security as national security, right, sure, 2:56:22.440 --> 2:56:25.480 I'm just going to read one. They use the word 2:56:25.640 --> 2:56:28.800 nation a lot. Nationalism was a sub field of by PhD. 2:56:28.959 --> 2:56:32.200 So obviously, like I'm interested in the exact understanding of 2:56:32.280 --> 2:56:35.920 nation they have here because there are several, but throughout history, 2:56:35.959 --> 2:56:40.400 sovereign nations prohibited uncontrolled migration a grated citizenship only rarely 2:56:40.440 --> 2:56:44.640 to foreigners who also had to meet demanding criteria. The 2:56:44.680 --> 2:56:49.080 West experience over the past decades vindicates this enduring wisdom 2:56:49.400 --> 2:56:52.760 in country throughout the world, mass migration as strained domestic resources, 2:56:52.879 --> 2:56:57.200 increased violence out of the crime, weakened social cohesion, distorted 2:56:57.280 --> 2:57:01.360 labor markets, and undermined national security. The era of mass 2:57:01.400 --> 2:57:05.720 migration must end. Border security is the primary element of 2:57:05.879 --> 2:57:06.960 national security. 2:57:07.240 --> 2:57:09.520 Great, this is the only terrain they have left because 2:57:09.520 --> 2:57:12.720 they've abandoned class interests and like exploitation. So the only 2:57:12.760 --> 2:57:15.119 thing they can actually focus this on, and they focus 2:57:15.600 --> 2:57:20.240 focus the economy on, is through nationalist immigration policies. This 2:57:20.280 --> 2:57:23.160 is like the last refuge for the right once they're 2:57:23.240 --> 2:57:25.959 still trying to appeal to some sort of populism but 2:57:26.360 --> 2:57:29.400 don't actually want to address real class conditions. 2:57:29.480 --> 2:57:31.680 Yeah, and for a lot of the right, when they 2:57:31.680 --> 2:57:35.120 talk about nationalism, they are talking about ethno nationalism, right. 2:57:35.280 --> 2:57:38.280 The people, you know, the people are the nation, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, 2:57:38.320 --> 2:57:42.440 the vulk like which is not always the bloods nationalism. 2:57:42.480 --> 2:57:45.280 It's one type of nationalism. It's not all types of nationalism, right, Like. 2:57:45.440 --> 2:57:46.920 That's the cool thing about the United States, And this 2:57:46.959 --> 2:57:49.959 is the one country, one of the only countries where 2:57:50.000 --> 2:57:53.680 this that principle has been like opposed in variy degrees 2:57:53.920 --> 2:57:55.120 since the country is founding. 2:57:55.320 --> 2:57:58.520 Yeah, like it's supposed to be the example maybe along 2:57:58.520 --> 2:58:01.280 with France, right of like subscriptive now where nationalism was 2:58:01.360 --> 2:58:04.400 not an ethnic quality, it was subscribing to a set 2:58:04.440 --> 2:58:07.720 of values and belief philosophical idea. Yeah, that does not 2:58:07.920 --> 2:58:11.280 seem to be the vibe I'm picking up. There's a 2:58:11.560 --> 2:58:15.920 lot more in this document. They spend a decent part 2:58:15.920 --> 2:58:19.720 of its ship talking other document, other previous national security strategies. Yea, 2:58:20.320 --> 2:58:22.600 these are always good for both. But we're going to 2:58:22.720 --> 2:58:26.280 keep it brief and then off they go. But yeah, 2:58:26.360 --> 2:58:28.480 I think it's it's worth us maybe doing the whole 2:58:28.480 --> 2:58:31.879 episode on because I think it's one of the more 2:58:32.280 --> 2:58:36.120 like coherent statements of believery. Not not a lot of 2:58:36.160 --> 2:58:38.039 this stuff is new. We knew that's how they thought 2:58:38.040 --> 2:58:40.640 about immigration. Yeah, you hear them talk about it on 2:58:40.760 --> 2:58:44.600 Fox on News Max. Like any Stephen Miller like public 2:58:44.600 --> 2:58:46.720 statement is you know, it's going to talk about talk 2:58:46.760 --> 2:58:51.160 about how immigration is changing, you know, the economic makeup 2:58:51.200 --> 2:58:53.480 of the country, and like the core identity of the 2:58:53.480 --> 2:58:56.879 country is changing wei to defend Western identity, that sort 2:58:56.920 --> 2:59:00.640 of stuff. Yes, seeing it all written in document together, 2:59:00.720 --> 2:59:04.560 I think is where this has value totally. And I think, yeah, 2:59:04.600 --> 2:59:06.320 seeing that all laid out, seeing that, you know, the 2:59:06.360 --> 2:59:09.199 way these things play into their view of the world. 2:59:09.240 --> 2:59:13.440 And then as I following what's actually happening in the world, 2:59:13.520 --> 2:59:16.640 and like you know clearly that when they're talking, they're 2:59:16.640 --> 2:59:17.240 talking about. 2:59:17.040 --> 2:59:17.840 The United States. 2:59:17.879 --> 2:59:20.480 When they're talking about nations, right, they're not talking about 2:59:20.480 --> 2:59:23.920 the Kurds, They're not talking about your Zds, the Catalans, 2:59:23.959 --> 2:59:25.240 southern nations that don't have states. 2:59:25.320 --> 2:59:28.039 Right. It's just so funny because they lay out all 2:59:28.040 --> 2:59:32.119 these economic things, right, straining domestic resources, violence and crime, 2:59:32.200 --> 2:59:36.160 weakened social cohesion, and destroyed labor markets. Right, they lay 2:59:36.160 --> 2:59:38.480 out all of these things which have direct like like 2:59:38.640 --> 2:59:43.400 economic cause hole drivers. Yeah, and they're like, no, no, no, no, 2:59:43.800 --> 2:59:48.240 it's actually not about these economic factors. It's just about immigration, 2:59:48.920 --> 2:59:50.760 like they're so it's so blatant. 2:59:50.879 --> 2:59:53.320 Yeah, no, other ideology and history escape go to a 2:59:53.360 --> 2:59:56.200 certain group for the economic disaster in the country. That's 2:59:56.200 --> 2:59:57.039 never happened before. 2:59:57.320 --> 2:59:59.640 Yeah, it's just one for one. If you go back 2:59:59.680 --> 3:00:03.879 to moish Postone's theory of like structural anti Semitism as 3:00:03.959 --> 3:00:06.920 the driver of the Holocaust, it's literally just this, right, 3:00:06.920 --> 3:00:09.600 except this is an even more blatant version of it. 3:00:10.200 --> 3:00:13.160 Seem like the Nazis, even though did try to do 3:00:13.280 --> 3:00:16.640 some like populist economic policies as well. 3:00:16.840 --> 3:00:20.400 Yeah yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, yeah, the Strength through Joy program. 3:00:20.680 --> 3:00:23.600 Yeah, the modern American right doesn't even try to do that. 3:00:23.800 --> 3:00:26.520 It's just the immigration. They're not even doing like a 3:00:26.600 --> 3:00:29.280 weird like like right wing like socialized there. 3:00:29.440 --> 3:00:32.000 There's all this I'll push back. There's a little bit 3:00:32.040 --> 3:00:33.840 of like the talk with oh, we're gonna have a 3:00:34.280 --> 3:00:38.480 give every American thousand dollars that will be invested in that. 3:00:38.640 --> 3:00:40.200 Like there's there they are like. 3:00:40.560 --> 3:00:42.160 They talk about it, they don't do it. 3:00:42.200 --> 3:00:42.760 They don't do it. 3:00:42.959 --> 3:00:45.959 They talk about it. Yes, sometimes, Yeah, he talked about 3:00:45.959 --> 3:00:48.000 a tariff check. Right, Trump was going to give every 3:00:48.040 --> 3:00:50.760 every American check. Yeah yeah, yeah. The first time they 3:00:50.840 --> 3:00:53.560 date during COVID, Right, they threw some money around, but. 3:00:53.879 --> 3:00:56.280 There was that like, yeah, one or two stimulus checks 3:00:56.280 --> 3:00:58.080 we got at the end of COVID. Yeah, the end 3:00:58.120 --> 3:01:01.400 of a first you know, back of the pandemic cycle 3:01:01.480 --> 3:01:02.240 to be more accurate. 3:01:02.560 --> 3:01:04.359 Yeah, yeah, Robert. 3:01:04.120 --> 3:01:05.959 Was there one other thing you wanted to talk about? 3:01:06.240 --> 3:01:06.760 We have time. 3:01:07.320 --> 3:01:11.840 Yeah, this is basically related to the Warner Brothers acquisition. 3:01:12.520 --> 3:01:16.760 For whatever reason, Reddit's algorithm will periodically give me little 3:01:17.080 --> 3:01:20.440 hints and bits of the war between Zack Snyder fans 3:01:20.480 --> 3:01:21.560 and the rest of the world. 3:01:21.760 --> 3:01:24.440 Oh yeah, I know a lot about this. I know 3:01:24.480 --> 3:01:25.039 a lot about this. 3:01:25.440 --> 3:01:25.640 Yeah. 3:01:25.640 --> 3:01:28.480 I'm not a big Zack Snyder fan, you know, but 3:01:28.560 --> 3:01:31.280 I don't care. Like I didn't feel strongly anti or 3:01:31.360 --> 3:01:35.520 pro his his DC movies. There are some crazy people 3:01:35.600 --> 3:01:37.879 out there who believe and they are like reading the 3:01:37.959 --> 3:01:40.600 tea leaves. They think the Saudis are going to like 3:01:40.840 --> 3:01:42.400 kill his enemies. 3:01:42.000 --> 3:01:43.760 They're going to restore the Snyder for Strobert. 3:01:43.959 --> 3:01:48.039 Yeah, this is I've been following this just as like 3:01:48.080 --> 3:01:50.119 a personal interest for you nuts. 3:01:50.560 --> 3:01:51.320 It's crazy. 3:01:51.360 --> 3:01:56.680 They're fascinating people like they're fascinating you. Unique people to study, 3:01:57.040 --> 3:01:57.240 like the. 3:01:57.280 --> 3:01:59.840 Number of people who literally believe that it like it. 3:02:00.040 --> 3:02:03.840 There should be people executed publicly for for not letting 3:02:03.920 --> 3:02:06.959 Zack Snyder finish his movies. That didn't make money is. 3:02:06.959 --> 3:02:11.200 Out because well because Netflix has parted with Snyder for years, 3:02:11.320 --> 3:02:14.520 when when if Netflix takes over, they're obviously going to 3:02:14.560 --> 3:02:16.440 restore the Snyder Verse. James Gunn is going to be You're. 3:02:16.280 --> 3:02:20.400 Going to restore the Snyder paramount, take over the saudis. 3:02:20.080 --> 3:02:21.040 We can do it too. 3:02:21.160 --> 3:02:24.440 So it's it's really for Snyder bros. Things are looking up. 3:02:24.640 --> 3:02:27.520 So put your money in Snyder coin right now. 3:02:27.680 --> 3:02:30.600 Well, my favorite thing about that is that like as 3:02:30.600 --> 3:02:32.520 soon as they announced the deal, they were like and 3:02:32.640 --> 3:02:35.400 James Gunn is staying. They talked a lot about him 3:02:35.440 --> 3:02:37.760 on the call because like his movies are a big 3:02:37.800 --> 3:02:41.400 part of what makes what are valuable right now? Right, 3:02:41.480 --> 3:02:44.400 Like he's good at making money for the people that 3:02:44.440 --> 3:02:47.840 he works for. And the level of conspiracy theories like 3:02:47.879 --> 3:02:50.440 no they have, it's like it's great have to hide 3:02:50.640 --> 3:02:53.640 Zack Snyder's back because they can't let people know yet, 3:02:53.720 --> 3:02:54.840 but he's already been told. 3:02:54.879 --> 3:02:56.920 He's been doing this for like eight years. 3:02:57.280 --> 3:03:01.320 It's so funny. I had not realized how crazy they were. 3:03:01.600 --> 3:03:04.279 Yeah, I love it. It's really fun. 3:03:05.680 --> 3:03:09.000 Anyway. That that's I always enjoy encountering a new cult. 3:03:09.920 --> 3:03:12.680 I think Zach is kind of taking advantage to them 3:03:12.720 --> 3:03:16.120 to get his insight follower account. Yes, it's very funny 3:03:16.160 --> 3:03:19.959 because he's like posting stuff that's like they're reading. Is 3:03:20.000 --> 3:03:22.440 like he's messaging that it's coming back, even when guys 3:03:22.520 --> 3:03:24.680 like Ben Affleckx like it was the worst. I hated 3:03:24.720 --> 3:03:26.760 being Batman. I would never do that again. I don't 3:03:26.760 --> 3:03:29.800 want to be it's I I love it. I just 3:03:29.840 --> 3:03:33.400 love seeing deranged people be it arranged about something that's 3:03:33.440 --> 3:03:36.400 actually harmless for once. Yeah, we could get we could 3:03:36.400 --> 3:03:38.960 get a Snyder verse related shooting. That's not impossible. 3:03:39.320 --> 3:03:44.000 Snyder does encourage it a little bit. But yeah, Snyder 3:03:44.080 --> 3:03:46.160 is not I think the villain of this story. 3:03:46.240 --> 3:03:49.920 And no, he's clearly friends with Gun like they're they're no, no. 3:03:49.879 --> 3:03:55.640 Yeah, yeah, and I uh. Specifically, he has dropped his plans, 3:03:55.680 --> 3:03:58.720 which which he had for years, to do some mind 3:03:58.760 --> 3:04:01.560 randed adaptions, which I'm bummed about because I think Snyder's 3:04:01.560 --> 3:04:05.760 heron raand would be great and instead instead he's writing 3:04:05.760 --> 3:04:10.280 this like this like lesbian movie with someone with yeah, 3:04:10.320 --> 3:04:14.240 and so unfortunately we're trading iron rand for like this 3:04:14.360 --> 3:04:17.119 like lesbian cinema slop, which I'm I. 3:04:17.040 --> 3:04:19.680 Am just lesbian I am really about because. 3:04:19.440 --> 3:04:21.840 I think I think Zack Snyder's Iron Rand would be 3:04:21.840 --> 3:04:23.480 a much more fascinating piece of art. 3:04:23.520 --> 3:04:26.440 No, No, I want to see Ben Shapiro get one 3:04:26.480 --> 3:04:27.360 hundred and fifty million. 3:04:28.720 --> 3:04:29.400 That's what I've got. 3:04:29.800 --> 3:04:30.000 Yeah. 3:04:30.120 --> 3:04:34.720 No, they bought exclusive TV rights to one of the 3:04:34.840 --> 3:04:36.440 one of the books I for I forget if I forget 3:04:36.480 --> 3:04:38.800 if it was Funtain Head or Atlas Shrugged. But since 3:04:38.879 --> 3:04:41.120 the Daily Wires like finances have collapsed, I do not 3:04:41.200 --> 3:04:42.800 think they're going forward with that right now. 3:04:43.200 --> 3:04:46.160 Oh but but gare the pendragonsight it's coming out though. 3:04:46.320 --> 3:04:48.480 I'm excited, right, we got. 3:04:48.280 --> 3:04:50.280 To watch that together, but you gotta find it. 3:04:50.440 --> 3:04:50.840 We gotta. 3:04:50.879 --> 3:04:52.680 We gotta have the company pay for us to meet 3:04:52.720 --> 3:04:55.600 in the Airbnb in a state and and just just 3:04:55.720 --> 3:04:56.760 watch that, son of a bit. 3:04:57.000 --> 3:04:59.039 If we want to this year to plan some kind 3:04:59.080 --> 3:05:02.800 of a cool zone convergence to to to watch uh, 3:05:03.080 --> 3:05:05.000 to watch the pen Dragon cycle together, I would I 3:05:05.000 --> 3:05:06.080 would hapily travel for that. 3:05:06.600 --> 3:05:08.720 I think we're ethically obligated to do that. 3:05:08.800 --> 3:05:14.160 Okay, final final closing note. Trans housing insecurity continuing to increase. 3:05:14.400 --> 3:05:17.040 But if you have an extra room, put a transperson 3:05:17.080 --> 3:05:19.200 in if you have a couch, put a transgirl on 3:05:19.240 --> 3:05:21.640 your couch. This is going to be bea the message 3:05:21.720 --> 3:05:25.959 going forward. Jesus Christ. People put a trans girl on 3:05:26.040 --> 3:05:28.360 your couch. You can figure out how to live together. 3:05:28.480 --> 3:05:32.039 It will be fine. People are going homeless and dying. 3:05:32.800 --> 3:05:33.360 Please do this. 3:05:33.600 --> 3:05:36.280 Wait, is there like data on like what's what's that? 3:05:36.680 --> 3:05:39.760 Is this just as a result of like the continuing 3:05:40.120 --> 3:05:41.560 like people being forced out. 3:05:41.400 --> 3:05:41.959 Of their jobs? 3:05:42.040 --> 3:05:43.880 Yeah, this is this is this is this is all 3:05:44.200 --> 3:05:46.480 this is. This is me finally talking about something I've 3:05:46.480 --> 3:05:48.840 been tracking for a very very long time, which is 3:05:49.160 --> 3:05:50.680 I mean I say a very long time. But you know, 3:05:50.800 --> 3:05:53.160 even over about the past four or five years, has 3:05:53.200 --> 3:05:57.240 been massive transmigration into places like Portland, into places like Chicago, 3:05:57.320 --> 3:05:58.520 into places like New York. 3:05:59.400 --> 3:06:01.800 They're getting how in New York there's a lot of 3:06:02.160 --> 3:06:04.600 a lot of transh housing in New York. I think this. Yeah, 3:06:04.600 --> 3:06:06.680 there's there's some regional aspects of this. 3:06:07.480 --> 3:06:08.600 Don't come to San Diego. 3:06:08.920 --> 3:06:11.160 We yeah, it make it makes sense that the cities 3:06:11.200 --> 3:06:13.320 that are safer having like a big influence and there's 3:06:13.320 --> 3:06:15.240 a lot of people, those are also cities that do 3:06:15.320 --> 3:06:18.759 not have great housings supply that yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 3:06:18.920 --> 3:06:19.600 nearly balloon. 3:06:19.720 --> 3:06:21.320 And there's been a lot of issues with it, and 3:06:21.360 --> 3:06:23.920 that's something that can be mitigated by just putting people 3:06:23.959 --> 3:06:24.560 on your couch. 3:06:25.360 --> 3:06:29.200 I mean, yeah, that's as a short terms maybe I 3:06:29.240 --> 3:06:31.520 don't honestly the couch thing freaks me out. As a 3:06:31.560 --> 3:06:32.360 long term solution. 3:06:32.680 --> 3:06:34.080 Well, but I mean that's the thing though, it doesn't 3:06:34.120 --> 3:06:36.400 have to be a long term. 3:06:36.280 --> 3:06:39.360 If people have connections to help other people get jobs. 3:06:39.640 --> 3:06:42.400 Yeah, so they can like just like pay. 3:06:42.360 --> 3:06:44.160 Pay a low amount of rent for like a room 3:06:44.640 --> 3:06:48.280 that's way more solid than like this like forever couch 3:06:48.360 --> 3:06:51.800 surfing thing that sometimes people like refer to as like 3:06:51.879 --> 3:06:53.039 quote unquote transhusing. 3:06:53.160 --> 3:06:53.800 Yeah. 3:06:53.920 --> 3:06:56.800 Okay, but again, but the the the idea here is 3:06:56.840 --> 3:06:58.440 that there and this is something that I have running 3:06:58.440 --> 3:06:59.959 too extensively, is there are a bunch of people who 3:07:00.040 --> 3:07:03.200 basically just need to get out and need like a 3:07:03.280 --> 3:07:05.640 couple of months or a month to get back on 3:07:05.680 --> 3:07:08.039 their feet and don't have the ability to do it 3:07:08.080 --> 3:07:10.199 and are going homeless because of that, and it's killing 3:07:10.240 --> 3:07:13.400 people and it fucking sucks. Yeah, and that is something 3:07:13.480 --> 3:07:15.879 that can be mitigated with sort of cultural shifts towards 3:07:15.879 --> 3:07:17.959 sharing space more, and we're all gonna have to do 3:07:17.959 --> 3:07:20.760 it more because the economy's about to collapse even more so. 3:07:21.600 --> 3:07:22.560 Great fun. 3:07:23.440 --> 3:07:25.160 Yay, put a transcoll on your couch. 3:07:25.640 --> 3:07:27.760 If you would like to email us, you can do 3:07:27.879 --> 3:07:31.600 so by emailing cool Zone Tips at proton dot me. 3:07:32.080 --> 3:07:34.520 Many of you already have, I'm sure there are more 3:07:34.560 --> 3:07:36.520 of you to come. If you want it to be encrypted, 3:07:36.560 --> 3:07:39.200 you should send it from a proton mail address as well. 3:07:39.600 --> 3:07:43.360 Okay, everybody, Well, happy holidays. I think we have one 3:07:43.360 --> 3:07:46.039 more ed episode before the end of the year. We 3:07:46.200 --> 3:07:47.640 reported the news. 3:07:48.120 --> 3:07:49.480 We reported the news. 3:07:53.240 --> 3:07:56.400 Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3:07:56.440 --> 3:07:58.360 from now until the heat death of the Universe. 3:07:59.120 --> 3:08:01.720 It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 3:08:01.800 --> 3:08:04.800 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:08:04.920 --> 3:08:08.520 coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3:08:08.560 --> 3:08:10.640 Apple Podcasts, or wherever. 3:08:10.280 --> 3:08:11.599 You listen to podcasts. 3:08:11.920 --> 3:08:13.840 You can now find sources for It Could Happen here, 3:08:13.840 --> 3:08:16.840 listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.