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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Hello everyone, this is Dan el Kurt for it could

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Speaker 3: happen here. Today's episode will be focused on Arab Israelian normalization,

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Speaker 3: Arab Israeli peace deals, and Arab Israeli relations more generally.

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Speaker 3: The reason that this is an important topic to discuss

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Speaker 3: is because a few weeks ago, the Washington Post published

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Speaker 3: this PowerPoint presentation originating in the Trump administration titled The

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Speaker 3: Great Trust From a demolished Iranian proxy to a prosperous

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Speaker 3: Abrahamic ally. And this presentation is about God, the US

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Speaker 3: and Israeli vision for what Gaza's quote unquote reconstruction will

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Speaker 3: look like. And the word great itself is an acronym

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Speaker 3: that stands for Gaza reconstitution, economic acceleration, and transformation. Now,

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Speaker 3: this presentation has so much in it that horrifies any

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Speaker 3: normal human being, but essentially it outlines this vision for

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Speaker 3: how Gaza is going to be reconstructed, and throughout the

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Speaker 3: entire document, it's very clear that whatever remains of Gaza's

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Speaker 3: population will not have any political rights. There is some

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Speaker 3: gesturing at some point about handing over some governance to

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Speaker 3: quote vetted Palestinians, but there's also a repeated discussion within

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Speaker 3: this presentation, within this document of how they want to

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Speaker 3: incentivize a significant segment of Gaza's population to leave Gaza

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Speaker 3: altogether and not return, and they want to financially incentivize

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Speaker 3: them to do that. I think the entire presentation is

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Speaker 3: worth looking at. I'll put it in the show notes

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Speaker 3: because it really outlines what they think Gaza is going

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Speaker 3: to look like and what they plan for the Pileestinians.

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Speaker 3: More generally, the reason why Arab is really a normalization

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Speaker 3: is important to discuss given this presentation. Given what's happening

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Speaker 3: in Gaza after ceasefire is present very much in this document.

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Speaker 3: It's very clear from the presentation that the US and

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Speaker 3: Israel envision a particular role for Arab governments in this

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Speaker 3: reconstruction and in this new Middle East that they hope

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Speaker 3: to achieve a Middle East where Gaza is this economic zone,

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Speaker 3: connecting it to Saudi Arabia, connecting it to other parts

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Speaker 3: of the Middle East, opening up investment opportunities for different

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Speaker 3: Middle Eastern governments and companies in the Global North as well.

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Speaker 3: And it really is just an astounding vision to behold.

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Speaker 3: Referring to Gaza as a demolished Iranian proxy that they

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Speaker 3: want to turn into an Abrahamic ally is also interesting

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Speaker 3: here because we've seen this kind of language in the

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Speaker 3: last couple years, especially during the first Trump administration with

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Speaker 3: the Abraham Accords. Now the Abraham Accords, as this episode

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Speaker 3: will outline in detail, were agreements signed between Israel and

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Speaker 3: the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain and eventually Morocco and

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Speaker 3: a part of Sudan. And these agreements were billed as

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Speaker 3: this new era of peace between Arabs and Israel under

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Speaker 3: this kind of religious language and religious framing of Abraham

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Speaker 3: as the father of both Jews and Arabs, Jews and Muslims.

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Speaker 3: So to discuss this entire framework, what it means, what

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Speaker 3: it office gates today, I'm joined by Ben Schumann Stohler

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Speaker 3: and Matan Kammoner, who have created a new podcast series

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Speaker 3: called Bad Cousins. This is published by Colomdia in partnership

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Speaker 3: with the Diasporust and they recently had an event in

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Speaker 3: Berlin debuting their first episode, which full disclosure I'm on.

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Speaker 3: But essentially they tackle this question of why are the

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Speaker 3: ab Tim Accords named after Abraham? What was that intended

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Speaker 3: to denote? And why is Arab Israelian normalization such a

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Speaker 3: big piece of the puzzle in understanding both Israeli Pasdidian

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Speaker 3: conflict right now as well as the vision for the

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Speaker 3: Israeli Pastidian conflict from the American and Israeli perspective. So

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Speaker 3: please enjoy this interview with Ben and Mattan. I wanted

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Speaker 3: to give you guys a chance to introduce yourselves to

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Speaker 3: the audience, So the time would you.

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Speaker 4: Like to start?

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Speaker 5: Sure?

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Speaker 6: I'm an anthropologist. I work at Queen Mary University in London.

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Speaker 6: My main research is on migration from Thailand to Israel

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Speaker 6: for agricultural work. But this project is something of a

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Speaker 6: side project that's blossomed together with Ben, who have been

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Speaker 6: good friends with for I think.

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Speaker 5: Over a decade.

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Speaker 3: Now, all right, Yeah, I remember that first book on

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Speaker 3: the time migrants, but you have also published extensively on

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Speaker 3: the Arab is really Normalization questions, So yeah, we'll get

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Speaker 3: into it.

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Speaker 7: Ben Yeah, I'm Benjamin Sohler. I'm a founder and owner

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Speaker 7: of Colo Media here in Berlin, Germany. We're an audio publisher.

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Speaker 7: We have audiobooks and shows and documentaries in English and German.

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Speaker 7: And yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having us.

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Speaker 8: Awesome.

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Speaker 3: All right, So the listeners I'm sure are going to

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Speaker 3: be a little bit aware, but let's kind of just

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Speaker 3: define terms at the top of this. When we say

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Speaker 3: Arab is really normalization? Well, what do we mean by that?

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Speaker 5: So it's a long, long process, it's not new.

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Speaker 6: One of the interesting things that I found out when

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Speaker 6: researching this, the article that this podcast came out of,

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Speaker 6: is that more than one hundred years ago, Heine White

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Speaker 6: Span who was head of the Zionist organization, and King

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Speaker 6: Faisal were in very very close communication about an agreement

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Speaker 6: that it seems a lot like a progenitor of the

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Speaker 6: Arab courts.

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Speaker 5: Today, we had a very sort of.

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Speaker 6: Strong pro Western orientation on both sides, pro imperialists. If

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Speaker 6: you like use that language. We had a disdain for

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Speaker 6: the Palestinians as people who were not supposedly an important

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Speaker 6: factor in the politics of the area, and we had

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Speaker 6: framing of Arabs and Jews use as relatives as kin,

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Speaker 6: which is one that we trace back in the show

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Speaker 6: to the sort of Abrahamic concept that has really come

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Speaker 6: to the foe with the naming of the Abraham courts.

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Speaker 6: Of course, there's a long long history since then, with

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Speaker 6: the big landmarks being the Egyptian is rarely normalization in

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Speaker 6: the late nineteen seventies seventy nine, I think, and of

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Speaker 6: course Jordanian is really normalization in nineteen ninety four, which

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Speaker 6: came very very tightly knit with the Osloochords and the

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Speaker 6: initiation of so called peace talks between the Palestines and

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Speaker 6: the Israelis. So the Palestinans war, of course, do play

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Speaker 6: a central role here, whether as present or as a

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Speaker 6: present absentees as Israelis like to call them sometimes today.

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Speaker 6: Of course, we fast forward to the twenty twenties. The

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Speaker 6: abraham Acords were assigned between Israel, Bahrain, the UAE, Morocco

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Speaker 6: and one of the warring factions in Sudan. Back in

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Speaker 6: twenty twenty, and of course there's a kind of live

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Speaker 6: project led by the under Trump as well as Biden

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Speaker 6: to extend normalization between Israel and not only Arab countries,

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Speaker 6: but other.

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Speaker 5: So called Islamic countries like Kazakhstan. Kazakhstan, yes, which has.

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Speaker 8: Had diplomatic relations since nineteen ninety two.

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Speaker 5: But we'll get into that.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, But those other ones, of course that are

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Speaker 6: on the table. I think Indonesia has been spoken about.

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Speaker 6: Pakistan is always some harring in the background, the big

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Speaker 6: fishes in Saudi Arabia.

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Speaker 5: And we can talk about that.

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Speaker 3: As well, right, Yeah, And when we say normalization, usually

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Speaker 3: people are referring to the formal normalization of diplomatic ties,

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Speaker 3: because a lot of these countries, a lot of the

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Speaker 3: Arab countries had a position reiterated in the Arab Peace

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Speaker 3: Initiative of two thousand.

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Speaker 8: And two that they would not have normal.

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Speaker 3: Ties with the State of Israel until a resolution of

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Speaker 3: the Israeli Palestinian conflict, and the Abraham Accords was a

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Speaker 3: step away from that kind of breaking of that precedent.

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Speaker 3: But if we think about kind of under the table normalization,

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Speaker 3: of course, there are so many ways in which these

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Speaker 3: Arab country trees have had under the table normalization to

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Speaker 3: varying degrees with the state of Israel. Ben, maybe you

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Speaker 3: could tell us about what the Abraham Accords were, how

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Speaker 3: are they build and what did they include.

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Speaker 7: You have to make sure my the precision of my

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Speaker 7: language is on point. But there's two agreements, right, There's

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Speaker 7: two things that were actually signed. So one is the framework, right,

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Speaker 7: which which which discusses like Abraham Accords as this unit,

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Speaker 7: the decoration of principles, the Declaration of Principles, And the

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Speaker 7: other one is a peace treaty, right, the peace treaty

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Speaker 7: between Israel and the UE and in other countries.

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Speaker 9: Right.

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Speaker 7: So essentially that's what it is. It's these two signings.

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Speaker 7: But I think when you when you talk about how

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Speaker 7: it was presented, it's supposed to mean it's supposed to

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Speaker 7: be like a vehicle conduit for travel, for security, for economics,

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Speaker 7: for deals, for cultural interchange, for a new way to

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Speaker 7: be seen. It's like a massive pr exercise jumping and

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Speaker 7: with the specifics.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, I mean what we're kind of honing in

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Speaker 6: on here is the sort of sort of cultural or

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Speaker 6: ideological aspects. If you want to be more stern about it,

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Speaker 6: and I think, you know, that's that's the real interest

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Speaker 6: of the show is in how this sort of mythical

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Speaker 6: framework that I refer to already, and specifically the figure

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Speaker 6: of Abraham is really really central to this kind of

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Speaker 6: ideological framing of their course. Like Foer is written extensively

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Speaker 6: about how toleration and tolerance have become sort of ideological tools,

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Speaker 6: and Abraham is kind of a figurehead for that. He

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Speaker 6: does listen in to two different ways that I think

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Speaker 6: are interesting for listeners to sort of follow on. The

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Speaker 6: first is as the progenitor or the kind of a figure.

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Speaker 5: Out of Monotheism.

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Speaker 6: So Jews, Christians, and Muslims all all have a stake

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Speaker 6: in Abraham, and of course this concept of the Abrahamic

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Speaker 6: religions that's very central here. But another one, and we

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Speaker 6: already mentioned this as well, is this the sort of

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Speaker 6: language of kinship of Jews and Arabs as being related

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Speaker 6: to one another, as.

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Speaker 5: Being specifically cousins or so is called bad cousins.

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Speaker 6: Because we're kind of exploring the various modalities or the

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Speaker 6: various kind of shades of meaning and mood that this

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Speaker 6: this idea of cousins can have it can be very positive.

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Speaker 5: Of course, you know a lot of people.

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Speaker 6: Say, oh Abraham, that's so, he's a wonderful figure of peace,

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Speaker 6: of hospitality, et cetera.

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Speaker 5: But they are also really dark sides to it.

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Speaker 6: The dark size that we really get into are the

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Speaker 6: sort of misogyny that's very, very central in the Abraham myth,

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Speaker 6: the underpinnings of slavery versus freedom that are that are

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Speaker 6: really really present there, and maybe most prominent and most

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Speaker 6: important to me, maybe as somebody who also studies migration

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Speaker 6: to the area, is xenophobia. So something that you don't

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Speaker 6: have written about, you know, the similarities between the UE,

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Speaker 6: for example, and Israel that aren't really considered, that aren't

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Speaker 6: thought about much. One that's always stood out to me

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Speaker 6: is the way that migrant workers are treated.

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Speaker 5: In both these countries.

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Speaker 6: The Golf States, including including to Ae, are huge obviously

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Speaker 6: users of non citizen migrant labor. Israel is not as big,

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Speaker 6: So it's not as big as phenomenal in Israel there,

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Speaker 6: but it's growing a lot, especially since since since October seventh,

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Speaker 6: when pastina workers have been shut out of the Israeli market.

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Speaker 6: And so I think Israel is like the Golf states

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Speaker 6: in a lot of these ways, and it's also getting

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Speaker 6: more getting to be more like them, and Abraham is

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Speaker 6: kind of a prism or figuring through which we start

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Speaker 6: to explore all these issues.

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Speaker 3: So in my mind, when the Abraham Accords were you know,

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Speaker 3: whispered about and then we saw them happen, and you know,

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Speaker 3: I've been writing about Arab's really normalization since before the

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Speaker 3: Abraham Accords in smaller ways. But in my mind, when

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Speaker 3: I kind of heard that terminology being used and that

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Speaker 3: framing being used, to me, it felt deceptive that they

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Speaker 3: were using this term of like the Abraham Accords denoting

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Speaker 3: and hearkening back to like the idea of the Abrahamic

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Speaker 3: tradition and that we're kin and all of these things

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Speaker 3: for listeners who are bad at religion as I am.

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Speaker 8: Abraham had two sons, presumed, you know.

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Speaker 3: Apparently, and one of those sons is the ancestor of

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Speaker 3: Jews and the other one is the ancestor of Arabs,

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Speaker 3: if you believe that. So anyway, I'm not gonna blespheme

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Speaker 3: on this podcast, but.

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Speaker 5: I think the story is important.

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Speaker 6: I mean, it is a deception. I totally agree with

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Speaker 6: you on that, but it's important to unpack how the

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Speaker 6: deception works, right right, right, it's so effective because the

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Speaker 6: story is so well known to people in the region.

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Speaker 3: No, absolutely, absolutely, But to me, like the deception lay

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Speaker 3: in the framing of Arab and Israeli animosity through a

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Speaker 3: religious perspective, as if the conflict was a religious one.

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Speaker 3: So to me it felt kind of very shallow. But

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Speaker 3: then as you start to unpack not only the impacts

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Speaker 3: of the Abraham Accords immediately so immediately repression increases in

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Speaker 3: these countries that sign the agreement, But then you start

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Speaker 3: to unpack, like what are these accords actually serving for

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Speaker 3: the Arab countries that are signing Why are they signing

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Speaker 3: with Israel.

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Speaker 8: Well, they're re engineering.

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Speaker 3: They're attempting to re engineer society. A lot of that

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Speaker 3: tolerance language has to do with that. It's they don't

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Speaker 3: want societies that are politically active. They want them to

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Speaker 3: be interested in consumerism, they want them to be maybe

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Speaker 3: slightly socially liberal, tolerate the Israelis, tolerate more crimes and

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Speaker 3: you know, kumbaya, and never ever have the ability to

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Speaker 3: question the political leadership or the political.

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Speaker 8: Status quo in any of these countries. Or in the

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Speaker 8: region as a whole.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it's all that, but I think it's

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Speaker 6: also a global power move.

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Speaker 10: Right.

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Speaker 6: The golf countries, including Qatar, which has a different politics,

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Speaker 6: are all really trying to make a name for themselves

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Speaker 6: to become really really huge global players. They're basically all

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Speaker 6: trying to transform this gigantic oil wealth that they have

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Speaker 6: into soft power, into diplomatic power, into cultural power. You

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Speaker 6: know this, This this brings us into the comedy festival

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Speaker 6: in Saudi Arabia as well, right, And I think I

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Speaker 6: think part of the framework here is we're part of

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Speaker 6: this larger global story which is about freedom, piece and

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Speaker 6: friendship through religion.

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Speaker 5: Now, what's the deception here?

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Speaker 6: The deception is this sort of and I think been

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Speaker 6: A this is one of one of his favorite points,

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Speaker 6: so he can he can expand on this. There's a

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Speaker 6: sort of like a switcheroo game in which something else

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Speaker 6: is brought into view and the Palestinians are hidden.

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Speaker 7: Right.

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Speaker 6: The crux of the conflict, the crux of what is

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Speaker 6: basically brought is real to go wild on the entire

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Speaker 6: region attacking seven different countries simultaneously, is the Palestinians, and

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Speaker 6: it's always has been the Palestinians is always going to

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Speaker 6: be the Palestinians there is, and you've written about this

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Speaker 6: as well. There is a segment of verb society, especially

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Speaker 6: ever believes, especially in the Gulf, who want nothing to

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Speaker 6: do with the Palestinians and our andopy would be happy

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Speaker 6: to get rid of them.

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Speaker 5: But this isn't the case with the vast majority of Arabs.

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Speaker 6: It's also not the case with the vast majority of

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Speaker 6: global South, I think, and even the vast majority of

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Speaker 6: the global North right. We've seen very very clear majorities

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Speaker 6: against Israel's genocide in Gaza, even in the United States,

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Speaker 6: you know, in.

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Speaker 5: Israel's biggest, biggest stally ebroad.

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Speaker 6: So there's in order to not have to talk about this,

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Speaker 6: it's always good to be able to talk about something else.

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Speaker 6: One of the many ways, and I'm not saying this

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Speaker 6: is the only one, one of the many ways in

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Speaker 6: which the subject has changed is by talking about Abraham.

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Speaker 5: So we're doing well.

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Speaker 6: I mean, our show has a little bit of a

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Speaker 6: it's it's it's kind of a difficult to move to

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Speaker 6: make because we were trying to talk about an excuse

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Speaker 6: but also impact why that excuse is so powerful.

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Speaker 7: You know, there's like a lot of violence in this

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Speaker 7: peace framing. And if you look at I think it's

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Speaker 7: point eighteen of the peace framework that Trump talks about

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Speaker 7: the Trump presented on Gaza. I think it's eighteen. I

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Speaker 7: have the quote here, but number it's you know, an

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Speaker 7: interfaith dialogue process will be established based on the values

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Speaker 7: of tolerance and peaceful coexistence to try and change mindsets.

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Speaker 7: I mean, this is like to try and change mindsets

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Speaker 7: and narratives of Palestinians and Israelis by emphasizing the benefits

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Speaker 7: that can be derived from peace. I mean, it's like

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Speaker 7: mafia talk, right, It's like you better do it exactly,

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Speaker 7: you better you're going to love this piece so much

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Speaker 7: or else kind of thing. I cut up some audio

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Speaker 7: from the episodes and from the interview with you, Donna

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Speaker 7: at the live event that we had here in Berlin

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Speaker 7: a couple weeks ago. This topic is so feels so

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Speaker 7: urgent and relevant to so many people that like more

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Speaker 7: than fifty people came out in the rain in November

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Speaker 7: in Berlin, and one of the things I played was

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Speaker 7: was exactly when you called it an obfliscation, Like there's

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Speaker 7: this paradox where all these things are under the table

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Speaker 7: are coming up and are now explicit, these secret deals

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Speaker 7: with gold states, this normalization that you know, you two

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Speaker 7: had known about, you know, in your research, but people

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Speaker 7: like me wouldn't know about if they're not following, if

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Speaker 7: they're not academics, if they're not following this closely. And

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Speaker 7: yet the Abramccords brought this all up. Okay, now we're

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Speaker 7: now everyone knows right now, we know that like this

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Speaker 7: is about Iran, this is about security, this is about

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Speaker 7: you know, these material issues, right, But at the same

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Speaker 7: time that that that it's playing on this kind of

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Speaker 7: clarity and this openness, right, and this moderation, it's also

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Speaker 7: creating a whole new obfiscation, a whole new myth. And

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Speaker 7: you know, people love love this quote. Like there was

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Speaker 7: a lot of like nodding heads in the audience when

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Speaker 7: I played what you said, Donald, which was like as if, right,

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Speaker 7: like as if this is about religion, it's about land

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Speaker 7: and it's about sovereignty, and and that's clear, but these

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Speaker 7: aren't called the land and Sovereignty accords.

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Speaker 8: I mean, like you said, like you said, it's very violent.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I've been describing normalization under these terms as

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Speaker 3: well as the Abraham Accords in particular as authoritarian conflict management,

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Speaker 3: because it maintains structural violence. It's not attempting to solve

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Speaker 3: the underlying, you know, motivations for that violence, which, as

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Speaker 3: you said, is Israeli Palestinian conflict, which is the land,

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Speaker 3: which is the the war crimes. And I think also

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Speaker 3: I want to just emphasize for listeners that the tolerance

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Speaker 3: framing in particular, there's like the flip side to it,

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Speaker 3: which is you better like this piece or else. And

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Speaker 3: we're calling it peace and it's Abrahamic, So like, if

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Speaker 3: you don't like it, what does that say about you?

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Speaker 3: Are you intolerant? Are you an anti Semite? Are you

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Speaker 3: you know, like, it's just how could you be against peace?

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Speaker 3: The piece is in the name, but it's a very

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Speaker 3: particular type of piece.

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Speaker 5: It's a liberal I think.

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Speaker 6: I think authoritarian conflict management is a very good way

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Speaker 6: of putting it.

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Speaker 5: But also it's also very helpful.

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Speaker 6: To help to explain why the Abraham myth is so

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Speaker 6: useful in that regard. Can we can just go over

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Speaker 6: the story real, real, real quick for listeners who aren't

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Speaker 6: that familiar, Yes, please, so Abraham, who was known as

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Speaker 6: in all the so called Abrahamic religions, as the first

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Speaker 6: one to to explicitly reject idolatry. Right, So there are

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Speaker 6: there are other righteous men in the Bible before him,

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Speaker 6: but he's the first one who becomes what is in

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Speaker 6: Islam is known as the friend of God, right, so Khalid.

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Speaker 5: And he also.

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Speaker 6: In addition to having this very very intimate relationship with God,

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Speaker 6: he also has a family.

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Speaker 7: Right.

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Speaker 6: And in this family he has he has a wife

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Speaker 6: and a maid servant. The wife is named Sarah, and

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Speaker 6: and the maid servant is named Hagar. Now we're gonna

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Speaker 6: do this quick.

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Speaker 5: Don't worry.

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Speaker 6: Sarah is barren, she can't have children. And she says

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Speaker 6: to she says to Abraham, I have an idea. Why

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Speaker 6: don't you have a child with with a maid servant

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Speaker 6: with Agar, and it'll be my child. So already, already

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Speaker 6: I think we can see authoritarianism. We can see uh,

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Speaker 6: we can see authoritarian conflict management already as kind of

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Speaker 6: the seed that's that's planted in the story, Hagar has

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Speaker 6: a child. That child is named Ishmael, and Ishmael is

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Speaker 6: beloved by his father. It's the Old Testament says, so,

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Speaker 6: it's very very clear, right. But then Sarah gets jealous.

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Speaker 6: She says, well, you know this, this this son is

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Speaker 6: going to and his mother are going to be basically

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Speaker 6: the pushing me out of my of my status within

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Speaker 6: the family.

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Speaker 5: YadA YadA, yadah. There's a lot of other stuff.

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Speaker 6: That goes on, very very interesting and very fascinating, and

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Speaker 6: lots of it very well known, like so called.

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Speaker 5: Sacrifice of Isaac.

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Speaker 6: She miraculously has the child, right that child's named Isaac.

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Speaker 6: Everyone agrees within these scriptural traditions that Isaac is the

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Speaker 6: father of the Jews and Ishmael is the father of

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Speaker 6: the Arabs. This is central to both Jewish theology and

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Speaker 6: Islamic theology, and the Christians in so far as they're

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Speaker 6: involved in the story, they're also in on. Now, then

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Speaker 6: the question becomes which one of them is the blessed son,

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Speaker 6: which one of the which is one of the ones

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Speaker 6: is the one who's supposed to inherit the land that

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Speaker 6: is the Holy land, wherever that's defined, and that's a

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Speaker 6: little bit vague as well. The Jews say it's Isaac

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Speaker 6: and the muslim to say it's Ishmael. So we have

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Speaker 6: a we have a story what my dissertation advisor, Andrew

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Speaker 6: Triia are called a community of disagreement. There are people

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Speaker 6: who disagree on something, but they don't disagree on the frame. Right,

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Speaker 6: the frame in which all that that the entire story

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Speaker 6: is inserted is one in which there's no disagreement. Everybody

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Speaker 6: agrees that Abraham had two kids. Everybody agrees that the

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Speaker 6: women are basically you know that the women this part

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Speaker 6: in the story is predicated on their sons, on whether

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Speaker 6: their sons succeed. Is is what makes the women succeed

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Speaker 6: or not? And then the question becomes which one is

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Speaker 6: the favorite son? Which one is the one that the

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Speaker 6: father loves and the big father up above also loves.

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Speaker 6: Right Now, this is in itself, I think, at least

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Speaker 6: in the way that it's framed in Abrahamical courts, a

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Speaker 6: form of what do you call it, authoritarian crisis management? Right,

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Speaker 6: that's what it is. Now, that doesn't mean and I

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Speaker 6: think that this is also important. This is also one

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Speaker 6: of the reasons that we made the podcast that there's

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Speaker 6: no other ways of reading the story.

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Speaker 5: How else could we read the story?

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Speaker 6: For example, we could point out we could note that

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Speaker 6: the person who has the most intimate contact with the

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Speaker 6: God in this entire story is Hagar.

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Speaker 5: She's the first and only person in the Bible to

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Speaker 5: give God a name.

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Speaker 6: She calls him Ellroy, the God who has seen me.

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Speaker 6: She has at least two miracles done to her. In Islam,

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Speaker 6: of course, her story, in Ishmael's story becomes the story

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Speaker 6: of Mecca. All the traditions of the Hajj are based

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Speaker 6: around the story of Hagar and Ishmael. So she's a

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Speaker 6: central central figure. And she is a slave woman. She's

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Speaker 6: an Egyptian, She's the one who's cast out into the desert.

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Speaker 5: She's a migrant. Her name Hagar or Hajar in Arabic

439
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 5: means migrant or migration.

440
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 6: Right, there's all these powerful undercurrents in the story, as

441
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:01,800
Speaker 6: there are in every powerful myth, that mean that they

442
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,200
Speaker 6: can be read differently, and some people are reading it differently.

443
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 6: So I don't think the story itself is the problem.

444
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,119
Speaker 6: The problem is that the story is used in a

445
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,679
Speaker 6: very particular way, in a way which facilitates again what

446
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,560
Speaker 6: you call it, conflictual.

447
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 5: Sorry, authority and conflict conflict management.

448
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean it's a it's a mouthful.

449
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 3: Maybe that helps us to get to what the podcast does,

450
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 3: Like who do you speak to?

451
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,679
Speaker 8: I know I'm on one of the episodes, but who

452
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 8: else do you speak to? And like what trends were

453
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 8: surprising to you? How did your kind of thinking shift

454
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:33,640
Speaker 8: over time?

455
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,119
Speaker 7: I mean, let me start at least because one thing

456
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 7: we talked a lot about at the live event, there

457
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 7: was a panel and there was a discussion with the audience,

458
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 7: and one thing that's become excessively clear, like we heard

459
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 7: my time explain the story I'm not from the Middle East, right,

460
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,960
Speaker 7: and also in this Berlin audience, like the relevance of

461
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 7: the story as a Bible story. I know I've heard

462
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,719
Speaker 7: of the story, but it doesn't have that much impact

463
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,440
Speaker 7: for me, like on my life or on how I

464
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,679
Speaker 7: understand the world. It's a story, It's a Bible story.

465
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 7: And we felt this from the European audience, right. We

466
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,640
Speaker 7: heard people say something like like, okay, this is a myth,

467
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 7: but are these the myths that are worth exploring right now?

468
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 7: You know, maybe with like looking at the at other

469
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 7: myths of more like material issues, and I think what

470
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 7: we're trying to do with the show is also explained well.

471
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 7: But these do affect people's lives in the Middle East,

472
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 7: like this is something. In fact, episode two, which comes

473
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 7: in a couple of weeks, we have all these vox

474
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 7: pop interviews from the Old City of Jerusalem where we

475
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,159
Speaker 7: talk to people on the street and just ask like,

476
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 7: why do you think Jews and Arabs are cousins? And

477
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 7: what does that mean? And what does that mean with

478
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 7: the Abraham Accords? And immediately everybody had different Israelis and

479
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,120
Speaker 7: the Arabs that you talked to Himtan had different understandings

480
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,400
Speaker 7: of the Abraham Acords good and bad. But if you said,

481
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 7: why is it called the Abraham Accords, every single one

482
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 7: of them are like, oh, yeah, because we're cousins. So

483
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 7: start there, right. So so episode one was about the

484
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 7: kind of geopolitics, but that's why you were on Donna

485
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 7: episode two explaining this kind of what does that mean?

486
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 7: Then that if everybody can agree that the Jews in

487
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 7: the Arabs are cousins, but the Abraham Accords are seen

488
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 7: with all of these we already started talking about, you know,

489
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 7: all these obfuscating kind of nasty, hidden, violent undertones, but

490
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 7: also kind of like sick, you know, we can fly

491
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 7: there or whatever, like all this tourism and and high

492
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 7: fiving and entrepreneurship and you know, the biggest satyr of

493
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 7: whatever UAE history or whatever that was, you know, So

494
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 7: like so we start there and then and and the

495
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 7: idea is to really like then turn this whole thing

496
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 7: around and look at the myths and look at the

497
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 7: stories and try and understand from all these different sides

498
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 7: we go into, you know, medieval Islamic stories and texts,

499
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,679
Speaker 7: and the idea of hospitality and the idea of of

500
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 7: cousinage and what does cousins mean? And I mean my time,

501
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 7: you can you can go further here, but the idea

502
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 7: of the show really starts from there, right, And that's

503
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 7: how we're going to like start at the geopolitics and

504
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 7: end up hopefully and turning the whole Abraham idea thing

505
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 7: in such a such a somersault that it lands right

506
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,639
Speaker 7: on its head or right on its butt or something,

507
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 7: and and not only we kind of dismantle it or

508
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 7: understand it and take it apart, but then maybe like

509
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 7: reclaim it in a different way and maybe even use

510
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 7: it for some kind of positive progressive purposes, even radical ones.

511
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 7: That I mean Matan and his activism and his research,

512
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 7: you've you know, you've matan you say, you've already seen

513
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 7: and kind of he has to make the case to me.

514
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 7: You know, that's kind of the framing of the podcast, like.

515
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 5: I'm eternally making the case. But that's okay.

516
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 6: I think I think it's it's it's it's kind of

517
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 6: a it's kind of a difficult case to make.

518
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 5: And and and.

519
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 6: The fact that people keep challenging me on it, I

520
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 6: think is very is very productive. Well, one other thing

521
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 6: that came up in Berlin, and I think it was

522
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 6: really interesting, is that Ben sort of touched on this

523
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 6: at the beginning of what he was saying just now,

524
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 6: the way that framing this as the Abrahamic course, framing

525
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 6: it as the abraham story tends to make it easier

526
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 6: for people from Europe or from the United States to

527
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 6: North America to see themselves as outside of this story.

528
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 5: Right, So this is Donna, you also.

529
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 11: Alluded to this.

530
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,199
Speaker 5: There's this idea that this is like an age old conflict,

531
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 5: you know, between these these.

532
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 6: These relatives who are always quarreling between themselves and oh,

533
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 6: it's so difficult.

534
00:24:58,400 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 5: To primitive people over there.

535
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, Q like oriental music right in the background,

536
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 6: and and hence that we rational outsiders, we Westerners, we Christians,

537
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 6: et cetera, all these sort of vaguely linked identities that

538
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 6: so called outsiders have. We are sort of neutral and

539
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 6: rational outsiders who can play a mediating role and bring

540
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 6: this this, this, this whole ancient mess to an end.

541
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 12: Right.

542
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 6: But the funny thing about this is that it's also

543
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 6: a religious kind of there's also a religious undertone here.

544
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 6: There is this idea, you know, a lot a lot

545
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 6: of scholars have written about how so called secularism, so

546
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,959
Speaker 6: called enlightenment, you know, in the West, actually is a secularized.

547
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 5: Form of Christianity in a lot of ways.

548
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 6: And this is really actually very very clear in this

549
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 6: Abrahamic framing, because there is this idea that Christianity is

550
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 6: superior to these other two religions. Right, this is this

551
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 6: is this is the actual universal religion. This is the

552
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 6: one that is able to encompass and sort of transcend

553
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 6: the other ones. And hence, I think maybe this was

554
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:53,880
Speaker 6: controversial few years ago, but nowadays, I think it's quite

555
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 6: clear that the US sees itself as a as a

556
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 6: as a Christian state, right, even sees itself as a

557
00:25:58,520 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 6: crusader state.

558
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 8: I mean, they stayed pretty clearly with.

559
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 6: The Secretary of Defense having deis volt tattoos on his chest, right,

560
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 6: so this is this is no longer they're saying the

561
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 6: quiet part out loud. This this in this context as well,

562
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 6: and they think that they can come in, you know,

563
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 6: and as these sort of outsiders solve things, But they're

564
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 6: actually deeply implicated in the story themselves for much much

565
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 6: earlier than the nineteenth century.

566
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 5: We could but go back to the Crusades if we want.

567
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 6: Europe has always been involved in the Middle East, right,

568
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 6: and the Middle East has been involved in Europe. For us,

569
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 6: these are near foreigners, right, So there's no innocence here, right,

570
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 6: there's no there's nobody who's outside the story and Abrahamic framework.

571
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 6: One of the I think sort of pernicious ways in

572
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 6: which it's acting in this in this current conjuncture, in

573
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 6: this current day and age, is as this sort of

574
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 6: framing that neutralizes the Western influence.

575
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 5: It makes it seem objective and.

576
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 7: Rational, and also I think allows the Golf States to

577
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 7: claim that. Right, there's like some interesting stuff in the

578
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 7: Facult book that I didn't quite put together about the

579
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 7: you know, sort of elite Amarathi perspectives as liberal and

580
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 7: anti democratic. But if you're pro business in a certain way,

581
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 7: then you can claim this kind of you know, like

582
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 7: Donnatan you Tube have written about moderation a lot, but

583
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 7: this idea for me of like, if you can claim

584
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 7: you know, the business forward thinking, then you're also modern.

585
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 7: Then you're also considered you know, more above, Like you

586
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 7: have a different elevation and a different sort of legitimacy

587
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 7: according to this worldview than somebody that would care about

588
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 7: such things as the Jews in the Arabs. What an ancient,

589
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 7: old fashioned kind of passe, you know, the Palestinian issue,

590
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 7: you knowugh kind of thing. But you know what's cool,

591
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 7: like artificial intelligence and like shipping deals in the Indian

592
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 7: Ocean that's new. You know, golf, Yeah, that's sick, Like yeah,

593
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 7: golf and like virtual reality watching people play golf like

594
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 7: that would be awesome. Yeah, And it's sort of data

595
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 7: that's sort of invited.

596
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 5: The bichocolate, I could go on.

597
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 7: It's I still think the sator, like the biggest ator

598
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 7: in Memoradi history or whatever is my favorite anecdote. But

599
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 7: the way that it invite this space so like it's

600
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 7: almost like a genius, like maybe it was like Jared

601
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 7: Kushner's great genius was to see this, like, you know,

602
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 7: ability to let other people claim the same Christian elevation

603
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 7: right the same like I'm on the shaky ground here now,

604
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 7: so I'll stop.

605
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know. If I don't know genius, I

606
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 5: don't I might dispute, you know what I mean.

607
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 6: In a way, it's in a way, it's kind of obvious, right,

608
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 6: like they were they were always going to call these

609
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 6: Abraham McCords.

610
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 5: When they did them. In a way, right, Jared Kushner,

611
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 5: I don't know he was. He's the right guy. He's

612
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 5: the right guy in the right place at the right time,

613
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 5: more than anything else.

614
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 7: But do you understand what I mean that, like this

615
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 7: invitation into this perpector that you were saying, which is

616
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 7: kind of like Christian you know, in the in our

617
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 7: event to Berlin, someone said something like, even without the

618
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 7: Jewish Muslim context, we have this problem, we have this

619
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 7: problem in this region, and the abramccords allows the conversation

620
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 7: to happen on this level of let's talk about chips,

621
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 7: let's talk about fighter jets, you know, let's talk about drones.

622
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, dronesveillance Yeah.

623
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 6: One of the things that I think is really important

624
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,239
Speaker 6: is it's sort of normalis is this idea that there

625
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 6: is a place for everybody and the people shouldn't be mixed,

626
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 6: and there's rarely extreme right, the religious extreme right in Israel.

627
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 6: There is this notion of the distancing of Ishmael for

628
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,719
Speaker 6: his correction, right, what's the idea here is that the Ishmaelites,

629
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 6: that is the Arabs, that is the muslim that is,

630
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 6: the Palestinians, they have their place in the world. It's

631
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 6: not that that place isn't here, It's somewhere else, in

632
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 6: a place called Arabia, right, And therefore that's why we

633
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 6: can be friends with them aratis because their Martis or

634
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 6: Arabs in the right place in Arabia. The Palestinians, however,

635
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 6: they are a problems because they are Arabs who don't

636
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 6: realize what the.

637
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 5: Right place is.

638
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 6: They can stay here if they accept total subjugation basically,

639
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 6: you know Themutrich's plan is sort of a secular.

640
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 5: Raization decisive plan.

641
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, his decisiveness plan or whatever that's called is is

642
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 6: is a sort of secularization of things that Kahana was saying.

643
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 5: The so called rabbi may Or Kahana was saying in

644
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 5: the nineteen eighties.

645
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 6: The sort of spiritual father that Israeli extreme, right, they

646
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 6: can stay here if they if they're willing to be

647
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 6: our slaves, basically, if not, they can go to Arabia.

648
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 6: And once they're in Arabia they can be they can

649
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 6: be our best friends. And this is really, I think,

650
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 6: very very closely connected to the animosity towards migrants.

651
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 7: Right.

652
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 5: That brings me back to the figure of or Haja.

653
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 6: Right, she is a migrant, and because she is a migrant,

654
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 6: because she's not in the right place, that's why she's denigrated,

655
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 6: That's why she's exploited, that's why she's cast out into

656
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 6: the desert. So it's not just about the Palestinians in

657
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 6: that regard. We can see how this sort of myth

658
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 6: also plays into the hyper.

659
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 5: Exploitation of migrants in the Gulf.

660
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 6: We can see how it plays into the racist treatment

661
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 6: that the refugees from Sub Saharan Africa are receiving in

662
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 6: North Africa.

663
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 11: Right.

664
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 5: We literally saw.

665
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 6: People a couple of years ago in Tunia being cast

666
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:33,959
Speaker 6: out into the desert the way the Hagar and Ishmael was.

667
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 5: And of course this is all.

668
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 6: This is all closely related again to Europe, to global

669
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 6: imperial kind of processes, to capitalism.

670
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 5: You know what Ben was talking about, hecial hierarchy, special hierarchy.

671
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 7: Right.

672
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 6: So one of the reasons that I think we need

673
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 6: to keep our eye on this ideology is that in

674
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 6: some ways it's different from what we're used to, right.

675
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 6: It's not, for example, white supremacy. Right, We're used to

676
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 6: think about white supremacy as this sort of globally dominant

677
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 6: racial ideology. But this is something different. This is not

678
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 6: about people being better because they're white. It's about people

679
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 6: being better because they're in their right place. And that's actually,

680
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 6: I think something that's really coming up very very strong

681
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 6: on the global far right, on the far right globally,

682
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 6: this idea that you know, oh you'll see like in

683
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 6: New York, for example. It's not that we have anything

684
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 6: against black people or Arabs or Asians or anything else.

685
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 6: They just need to stay in their own countries as

686
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,479
Speaker 6: so long as everybody stays in their own countries, that's fine.

687
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 5: And you know, with climate change, with.

688
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 6: All these catastrophica ecological changes that are happening in the world,

689
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 6: people are going to be moving and we already we

690
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 6: already see people in masses moving from place to place,

691
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 6: but that's going to be larger and larger movements as

692
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 6: in the coming decades. And you know, the basic test

693
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 6: of humanity is going to be the test of hospitality,

694
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 6: whether people are allowed to into new places that they

695
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 6: have to go to in order to survive. And this

696
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 6: sort of ideology I think is already sort of primed.

697
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 6: It's primed to deny that and to say no, you've

698
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 6: got to just stay in your own space, right, So

699
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 6: against that, Abraham I would like to place Huggar. I

700
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 6: think she's She's the answer.

701
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 8: So, I mean, that's fascinating.

702
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 3: I've never really kind of thought about I've never really

703
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 3: thought too hard about this story because as a Muslim

704
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 3: and Arab child, it upset me. But I do want

705
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 3: to say, like there is as as you mentioned, like

706
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 3: there is a general trending towards ethno nationalism all over

707
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 3: the world, but the Gulf States cannot manage ethno nationalism.

708
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 3: Saudi Arabia is kind of a little bit of a

709
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 3: different story. But the ones that signed, they are minorities

710
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 3: in their countries. On top of that, to their own

711
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 3: citizens to IMMORTI citizens to buy any citizens.

712
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 8: They are illegitimate. They are only legitimate.

713
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 3: By virtue of providing economic opportunities. You know, those cracks

714
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 3: have already been showing up.

715
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 13: So the way in.

716
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 3: Which these countries can build legitimacy for themselves offset possible

717
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 3: public pressure, offset any kind of accountability for their regional role.

718
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 3: People forget that the United Arab Emirates is deeply implicated

719
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 3: in the genocide in Sudan. That connect with what is

720
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 3: I think inherently white supremacist and things like this, But

721
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 3: of course they're not white, is what ya seen of

722
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 3: hash Salda Hassyrian theorist calls the ideology of modernism. He

723
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 3: was writing about the promise and the discourse of the

724
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 3: Asaid regime when Bashada Usaid came to power. But when

725
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 3: I read it, I was like, this sounds a lot

726
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 3: like the ideology of these Gulf states.

727
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 8: And so he says it has three traits.

728
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 3: It entirely neglects issues of values such as freedom, equality,

729
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 3: human dignity, mutual respect among people, in favor of morally

730
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 3: amorphous categories such as secularism, enlightenment, and modernism itself. It

731
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 3: neglects fundamental social issues related to poverty, unemployment, marginalization, life conditions,

732
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 3: gender relations, et cetera. And the advocates of this modernism

733
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 3: are politically conservative, I mean, just to.

734
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 5: A t Yeah, that's the Abraham Accords and a unchill.

735
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 8: Right there, exactly.

736
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I you know, I wrote about this in

737
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 3: the context of the Abraham Accords in a paper I

738
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 3: published in twenty twenty three, but Yasin Hashsala had like

739
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,239
Speaker 3: kind of nailed it back in twenty eleven that this

740
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 3: was the trend.

741
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 9: Yeah.

742
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 6: I think Syrians saw a lot of things earlier than

743
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 6: the rest of us.

744
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, definitely, And so this is their vision for the world.

745
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 8: And I think this is the vision of a lot.

746
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 3: Of essentially the right in the world, even in America.

747
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 8: Likely they don't care about democracy. They want this.

748
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 3: They want you to be prosperous and in your place,

749
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 3: and yeah, everybody stays separate.

750
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's a sort of like callousness around all of it,

751
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 6: which I think is it's actually a draw for some people,

752
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 6: because you know, cynicism is a big thing in the world,

753
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 6: and people are I think one of the reasons that

754
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 6: people attracted to Trump, for example, is because it's clear

755
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,959
Speaker 6: that he's a completely cynical actor, you know, who's only

756
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 6: out for his own sake, and people are sort of,

757
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 6: you know, for better or worse, sick of the.

758
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 5: Of liberal hypocrisy, so they gravitate towards that. And it's funny.

759
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 6: I mean, you would think that wouldn't go hand in

760
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 6: hand with religion or these mythical stories, but.

761
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 5: It actually does.

762
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 6: You know, speaking of prosperity, for example, there's in Evangelicalism

763
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 6: there's a very strong str of what's called like the

764
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 6: prosperity gospel, this idea and this has you know, very

765
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 6: very old roots in Calvinism as well. If you make

766
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 6: it in the world, if you're rich, if you make

767
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 6: if you make a lot of money, that means that

768
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 6: God loves you. That's like a proof, right, And so

769
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 6: there again we shouldn't think about religion too narrowly. Religion

770
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 6: is really infused in all these sorts of social ideologies,

771
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 6: among which are this, and I think this is very

772
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:21,919
Speaker 6: very prominent in the abraham A story.

773
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 5: In the Abrahamics story.

774
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 6: Is that well, you know, if they have oil, if

775
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 6: they have riches, if they've managed to sort of manipulate

776
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 6: the global economy to their own advantage. Then more power

777
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 6: to them. Right, And that's attractive. That's that's something that

778
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 6: you want to that's a train that you want to

779
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 6: get on. Maybe they'll give you a plane too, Right.

780
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 6: That was the Kataris. That wasn't ue, So we shouldn't

781
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 6: get them mixed up. But I think it's kind of

782
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 6: the same story.

783
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I completely agree.

784
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 3: So, I mean I started this discussion by talking about

785
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 3: the plants for reconstruction in Gaza mm hm. And you've

786
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 3: already mentioned that, like the big whale for the Trump

787
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 3: administration is Saudi Arabia. They want Saudi Arabia to normalize

788
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 3: with Israel. What are some things we should watch for

789
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 3: in the near future? What do you where do you

790
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 3: think this arab is really a normalization is going to go.

791
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 6: I'm always hesitant to to make predictions. I think it's

792
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 6: a it's it's an extremely volatile moment. This ceasefiring guys

793
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 6: that we God knows if it's going to hold or

794
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 6: if there are just going to go back in and.

795
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 5: Start genociding again.

796
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 6: I think we're also seeing these really really rapid movements

797
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 6: throughout the region with I mean, we keep.

798
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 5: We've kept we've kept alluding to Cutter, but Cutter and Turkey.

799
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 6: Are really playing a really much bigger role now than

800
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 6: the than they were until recently. And that's with American blessing.

801
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 6: So that's also going to change. I think the sort

802
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 6: of calculus that that that Saudi makes. But broadly speaking,

803
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 6: I think one thing that we really need to keep

804
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 6: an eye on is this iMac Corridor, this idea of that.

805
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 6: Basically Biden administration was starting up, but but Trump is

806
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 6: really sort of put into into hyperdrive, which is this

807
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 6: idea of connecting India, the Gulf, Israel, and Europe through

808
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 6: a sort of alternative to China's Belton Road initiative. It

809
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,919
Speaker 6: revolves around oil and gas, but it also revolves around

810
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 6: data centers and AI so sort of geopolitically and and

811
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 6: and geoeconomically. I think that's that's that's the big plan

812
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 6: that the Americans have hatched for for the region, and

813
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 6: that basically means turning Gaza into some sort of concentration

814
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 6: camp slash as Easy especially economic zone. Right there are

815
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 6: really really really frightening plans to ethnically clans about half

816
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 6: of the Guns in population, and to uh and to

817
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 6: sort of turn the rest of them into into well

818
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 6: basically slaves, you know, basically uh, unfree workers in these

819
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 6: in in this so called the especially economic zone that

820
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 6: the that they're that they're trying to to set up. Now,

821
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 6: whether any of this is going to actually happen, I

822
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 6: think it's anybody's it's anybody's guess at this point. But

823
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 6: it's it's it's very clear. And I just saw a

824
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 6: physiata speaking about this at the Historical Materialism conference in London.

825
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 6: It's very clear that it's their plan, right, that's the

826
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 6: planet's out there. It's it's I don't know if it's

827
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 6: even been leaked or just publicly released, that this is

828
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 6: what the the Americans, Israeli's Saudis and immioralties are are

829
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 6: planning for the region. It's a it's a really kind

830
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 6: of nightmarish vision that they're not even they're they're broadcasting

831
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 6: out loud. They're not they're not even pretending to disown

832
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 6: it or anything. So so you know, we should take

833
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 6: them at their word, and we should be very very

834
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 6: clear that this is something totally unacceptable. And I mean,

835
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 6: as you started out saying, and I think we've always

836
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 6: agreed on this. The question for the region is the

837
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 6: Palestinian question. If the Palestinians don't have sovereignty, if they

838
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 6: don't have freedom, if they don't have equality, if they

839
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 6: don't have the right of return, then things are not

840
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 6: going to are not going to calm down in the region.

841
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 6: It's just going to be more and more, more and

842
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 6: more violence, more and more of this help for everybody.

843
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 5: And you know, these have been hellish years for all

844
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 5: of us. I'm not, of course making any sort of comparison.

845
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 5: I think it's clear that the things that have been.

846
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 6: Happening in Gaza are beyond any sort of any sort

847
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 6: of description in terms of how hard the genocide has been.

848
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 6: But you know, as in ISRAELI who's currently not living

849
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 6: in Israel and I would like to return at some point.

850
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 6: I really hope that everybody in the region can come

851
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 6: to this very very clear conclusion. You know, whether you

852
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 6: phrase it in religious terms or not. And I don't

853
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 6: think there's a problem with framing it in religious terms.

854
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 6: There are ways of framing it in religious terms when

855
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 6: we can talk a little bit about that more. If

856
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 6: you want, just the fact that that that the indigenous

857
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 6: people of Palestine. The Palestinians need to need to have

858
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 6: the rights to respected and fulfilled. And that's the only

859
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 6: the only way that we can that we can bring peace.

860
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 6: That we can bring you know, these these really beautiful

861
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 6: biblical prophecies about the wolf and the and the sheep

862
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 6: lying down and the cutting down of swords into the

863
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 6: plowshires to make those reality. So some people might call

864
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 6: that messianic, but I think there's also good, good forms

865
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 6: of missionism.

866
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 8: Then, do you have any thing to add pop that?

867
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 7: My hope the past year two years has been that

868
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 7: if the Abraham Accords elevated you know, countries like the

869
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 7: AE two a certain like volume, like gave them a

870
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 7: certain audience that maybe they didn't have before internationally, that

871
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 7: then uh, what Israel has done could be criticized more

872
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 7: obviously and that they would actually have some leverage. So

873
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 7: my hope still is that as like normal partners, they

874
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 7: can normal threaten and normal criticize and normal check the

875
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 7: power of their you know, quote whatever partners Israel. And

876
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 7: so I'm keeping an eye on hopefully that that that

877
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 7: will start happening. More of what we do see is

878
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,280
Speaker 7: that like trade continues to go up, and that doesn't

879
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,439
Speaker 7: seem to have an impact. And I find that very disappointing.

880
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 7: And also at the same time, I see the polling,

881
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 7: and Donna, you know more about this than I do,

882
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 7: but the polling shows increasing criticism of normalization with Israel. So,

883
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 7: you know, the idealist to me thinks that like civil

884
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 7: society will win out eventually, that this is just untenable,

885
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 7: and that what October seventh showed was that and the

886
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 7: and the wars since then, that without dealing with the

887
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 7: central cause in the region, which is the Palacinian cause,

888
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:56,760
Speaker 7: like there will be no possible safe you know, entrepreneurial

889
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 7: dream land of a rich future, that that their claiming

890
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 7: is going to happen. So that's my old but and

891
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 7: I keep an eye out for that. I hope that

892
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 7: they use China and Russia as good countermeasures and counter

893
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 7: threats to the American agenda, and I keep my eye

894
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 7: out for that.

895
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, uh, I think really that's the That's

896
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 3: the open question moving forward is like will the political

897
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 3: elites went out, will they be able to sidestep the

898
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 3: Palestinian question, sidestep their own publics, who, as you mentioned,

899
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:33,439
Speaker 3: are extremely critical of normalization, extremely supportive of the Palestinian cause.

900
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 3: I think the Americans think that they can. I keep

901
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 3: mentioning this on this podcast, but I was on a

902
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 3: panel with Stanley McCrystal, General and commander of the Joint

903
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 3: what is it, the Joint Armed Forces or whatever in

904
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 3: I Rock in Afghanistan, and he was like, Oh, you know,

905
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 3: the Arabs really want to move past the Palestinians, like

906
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 3: it's a thing of the past. If October seventh hadn't happened,

907
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 3: like you know, we would have just moved past the Palestinians.

908
00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 8: And I was like, what the hell you're talking about.

909
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 3: That's you only say that because you think that you

910
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,919
Speaker 3: can continue to crush air publics. Yeah, like you are

911
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 3: predicating your entire strategy on authoritarianism. And it's it's not

912
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 3: a Middle East problem. It's a civil society all over

913
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 3: the world has to fight back against authoritarianism or this

914
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:17,720
Speaker 3: is our reality.

915
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, this is I think this is the moment now,

916
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 6: and this is one of the ways in which the

917
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 6: rest of the world is becoming more likely our world

918
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 6: in some ways. As we mentioned, we have large majorities

919
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 6: almost everywhere in the world. I think maybe every country

920
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 6: in the world except for Israel. We have a majority

921
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 6: of people who are now supporting past ten more than

922
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 6: support Israel, who are against the genocide, who say, you know,

923
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 6: who answer the polls in a way that that makes

924
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 6: it clear that they're that they're against what's going on, right,

925
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 6: and they're against their government supporting it. But most governments

926
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 6: in the world, most governments in the world, including ones

927
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 6: that aren't considered very pro pro us are are are

928
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,280
Speaker 6: basically letting this happen.

929
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 7: Right.

930
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 6: That means that there's no effective democracy anywhere in the

931
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 6: world really, except maybe in a few places where you

932
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 6: can say, okay, I don't know, Spain, some countries.

933
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 5: Are Island, Yeah, yeah, where even even.

934
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 6: Those countries, I don't think they're they're doing it as

935
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 6: much as as as their populations we would like them

936
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 6: to do.

937
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 5: Right.

938
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 6: So, again, this idea that the that the that the

939
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 6: West is somehow essentially different from these other countries, it's

940
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 6: also kind of a lot and it's also something it's

941
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 6: it's also it's also bogus, and we need to we

942
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 6: need we need to call bullshit on that as well. Yea,

943
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 6: many people have already have already made various arguments, and

944
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 6: there's various ways of making this argument that the Palestinian question,

945
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 6: the question of gods, or the question of the genocide

946
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 6: is kind of the global question of our time. I

947
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 6: don't think just because there's a ceasefire that that's going

948
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 6: to go away in any way. Every everything that caused

949
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 6: the explosion in the first place is still there, right,

950
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:37,879
Speaker 6: And I think we're going to keep seeing mobilizations around

951
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 6: this issue.

952
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 5: I'm sure we are.

953
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 6: The crucial question for me is how we connect this

954
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 6: to other issues, How we connect this to the question

955
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 6: of democracy. Can we connect this to the question of

956
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 6: rights for migrants, How we connect this to the questions

957
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 6: of of of climate change, right.

958
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 5: And and and various people are already doing that.

959
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 6: So I'm I'm not saying this is something that people

960
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 6: aren't working on, but this is this is this is

961
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,919
Speaker 6: kind of the challenge for our for our time, and

962
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 6: this podcast, this project is is you know, just just

963
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 6: you know, one small part of that mosaic, which is

964
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:06,439
Speaker 6: looking into the ideology that framed them the Chords after

965
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 6: Abraham and again thinking about how we can not just

966
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 6: debunk that ideology and say, oh, this is it's not

967
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 6: about this, it's about that but also about how we

968
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 6: can read those stories in a different way and sort

969
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 6: of yeah, exactly, to subvert it intimate and to read

970
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 6: those stories in a way that that that makes progressive sense.

971
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 3: Now, that's I'm really looking forward to listening to the

972
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 3: other episodes, not just my own.

973
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 6: So, yeah, you sound a little more convinced now than

974
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 6: you did after we interviewed in.

975
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 5: You I'm being really nice.

976
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 6: No, I'm just you're being hospitable like Abraham exactly.

977
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:36,800
Speaker 5: It's in my blood.

978
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 7: When we played it live, someone came up to me

979
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 7: afterwards and was like, you know, I agree with Dona, right,

980
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:43,720
Speaker 7: And I was like, no, I think we all agree.

981
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 7: Like that's kind of the point. I think we all

982
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 7: agree on the basics here. The other part is just

983
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 7: sitting in the cringe, as Madan says, oh.

984
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 14: Nice, yeah, basting basting in the cringe, yeah, basing in

985
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 14: the cringe here, and trying to find our way out

986
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 14: of like a bad mushroom trip hallucination where you can

987
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 14: do things pretend that the Palestinians don't exist.

988
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, that's that's We're trying to be the

989
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 7: orange juice that's supposed to get you out of the

990
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 7: you know of a bad munchers.

991
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 3: How do they hangover whatever? Yeah, the trip? Yeah, sorry,

992
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,879
Speaker 3: don't I don't do drugs. I don't understand anyway. Thank

993
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 3: you all so much. This has been a very interesting episode.

994
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 3: And yeah, I'll link in the show notes for for

995
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 3: listeners all of the things we mentioned.

996
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:23,439
Speaker 5: But yeah, more soon.

997
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, episode episode one is already out by the time

998
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 6: your listeners hear this, I think episode two might already

999
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 6: be out as well. Okay, in episode two, we kind

1000
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 6: of go into the into the into the backstory. Episode

1001
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 6: one was was with you and we talked about about

1002
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 6: the chords themselves. Episode two we start digging into those

1003
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 6: into those warm holes of the Abraham story. Interesting and

1004
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 6: we when we talked to people in Jerusalem again Ben

1005
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 6: mentioned this, both Palestinians and Israelis. We went and we

1006
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 6: went out and asked them what they thought about Abraham

1007
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 6: Accords and why they thought it was named after Abraham.

1008
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really excited to listen to that.

1009
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 8: Thank you all right, thanks guys, thanks for having us on.

1010
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 5: Thank you.

1011
00:45:58,040 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 3: Take care.

1012
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 4: The last week, two major news networks, CNN and CNBC,

1013
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 4: partnered with the so called prediction market Calshi, an online

1014
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 4: political betting platform to use Calshi's real time betting data

1015
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 4: in TV news segments, online news content, and, as Calshi

1016
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 4: announced on X the Everything app quote, to integrate prediction

1017
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 4: markets into CNN's global newsroom, with Calshi threatening, quote, a

1018
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 4: new era of media is here. This is it could

1019
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 4: happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. Regular CNN viewers may have

1020
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 4: noticed this integration has already been happening for some time.

1021
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 4: This past election cycle, news anchors used betting odds in

1022
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 4: place of an addition to polling data to weigh the

1023
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 4: likelihood of candidates winning elections. CNN's chief data analyst, Harry

1024
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 4: Enton Nate Silver Protege, who used to work for five

1025
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 4: point thirty eight trailblazed the use of political gambling data

1026
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 4: in news stories earlier this year. How she praised Entin

1027
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 4: by name in their announcement of the CNN partnership.

1028
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 5: Quote.

1029
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 4: Enton is an expert at translating what data and polling

1030
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 4: are saying on any given issue, and through this integration,

1031
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 4: he can tap into real time prediction markets data to

1032
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 4: better inform and fact check his reporting.

1033
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 7: Unquote.

1034
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 4: Here's an example of this reporting in a CNN segment

1035
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 4: from October twenty twenty five.

1036
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,399
Speaker 15: If you go back six months ago, you go back

1037
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,879
Speaker 15: to April K Baldwin. What were we looking at, Well,

1038
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,760
Speaker 15: we were looking at the Democrats with a very clear

1039
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 15: shot of taking control of the US House of Representatives.

1040
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,839
Speaker 15: According to the Calshi Prediction Market odds, we saw him

1041
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 15: in an eighty three percent chance. But those odds have

1042
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 15: gone par vomiting down. Now we're talking about just a

1043
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 15: sixty three percent chance, while the gopiece chances up like

1044
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 15: a rocket up like gold, up from seventeen percent to

1045
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 15: now a thirty seven percent chance. So we'll look like

1046
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 15: a pretty clear Demo likely Democratic win in the House

1047
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 15: come next year has become much closer to toss up

1048
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 15: at this point, although still slightly leading Democratic.

1049
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 4: Harry Enton never clarifies how these quote unquote odds are

1050
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 4: formed or what they really are. To a viewer who

1051
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 4: just tuned in or maybe isn't paying that much attention,

1052
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:36,280
Speaker 4: it would be very unclear that these numbers are actually

1053
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 4: from a gambling website. They're just big percentages displayed on

1054
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 4: screen the way you would see polling data or legitimate

1055
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 4: information used in a newsroom. This short section using the

1056
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 4: Calshi prediction market odds was then followed by three minutes

1057
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 4: of analysis using selective mid term voting data from twenty

1058
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 4: seventeen to twenty to support the movement in these gambling odds.

1059
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 4: The gambling ods themselves were a load bearing piece of

1060
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 4: information in this piece. Calshi's main competitor, another so called

1061
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:17,320
Speaker 4: prediction market called poly Market, partnered with x the Everything

1062
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 4: app and Yahoo Finance earlier this year to integrate their

1063
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 4: prediction data into online news content. Time Magazine and Sports

1064
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 4: Illustrated have also both launched deals with the prediction market

1065
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 4: platform Galactic. So what exactly are these prediction markets and

1066
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 4: how do they function? On poly Market and Calshi, users

1067
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 4: can bet yes or no on the outcome of a

1068
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 4: question relating to world events, which is called a market.

1069
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 4: As more money is wagered on either side, the odds

1070
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 4: of the outcome change. Currently, top questions include various predictions

1071
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,320
Speaker 4: for Time Person of the Year, will the US strike

1072
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 4: Venezuela before the end of the year, the release of

1073
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 4: the Epstein files, and who will be the next president.

1074
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 4: Kalshi has Trump's chances at six percent. Here's Polymarket CEO

1075
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 4: Shane Copelan explaining on sixty minutes, you.

1076
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 9: Make money if you're right, you lose money if you're wrong,

1077
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 9: and as a result, it creates this information that's really

1078
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 9: isful for people.

1079
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 4: These companies would like you to believe that the ratio

1080
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,240
Speaker 4: of people betting yes or no on a certain outcome

1081
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 4: of world events is somehow useful or reliable information for

1082
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 4: the general public to forecast the future, whether that's through

1083
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 4: betting on the likelihood of an upcoming recession, the winner

1084
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 4: of a sports game, which days of the week Israel

1085
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 4: will bonb Gaza, or what movie will win Best Picture.

1086
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 4: Almost fifty million dollars is currently being wagered over a

1087
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 4: potential Russia Ukraine ceasefire in twenty twenty five. Production markets

1088
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 4: currently have three billion dollars in weekly trading volume. I

1089
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 4: do need to note these companies argue that hedging outcomes

1090
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 4: of world events legally is not gambling, because that would

1091
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 4: be illegal. Payments through unauthorized gambling sites are illegal under

1092
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 4: the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of two thousand and six,

1093
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 4: which suppressed the early prediction markets of the two thousands.

1094
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 4: But CALSHI is regulated as a platform for trading financial

1095
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 4: derivatives rather than securities trading or straight up legalized gambling,

1096
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 4: and this determines what entity they have to register with

1097
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 4: and what regulations they're subject to. CALSHI launched in twenty

1098
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 4: twenty one with a federal license from the Commodity Futures

1099
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 4: Trading Commission, and after a year's long battle, in October

1100
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,720
Speaker 4: twenty twenty four, a federal appeals court ruled in favor

1101
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 4: of CALSHI, allowing online prediction market betting on US elections,

1102
00:51:56,320 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 4: rejecting claims by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission that the

1103
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 4: practice was illegal gambling and their concerns that prediction market

1104
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 4: betting could undermine election integrity. Former CFDC chairman Rostam Benham

1105
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 4: misstatement in May of twenty twenty four, reading quote contracts

1106
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 4: involving political events ultimately commoditize and degrade the integrity of

1107
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 4: the uniquely American experience of participating in the democratic electoral process.

1108
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 4: Allowing these contracts would push the CFTC, a financial market regulator,

1109
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 4: into a position far beyond its congressional mandate and expertise.

1110
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 4: A week before his dad took office in January twenty

1111
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 4: twenty five, Donald Trump Junior became a strategic advisor at

1112
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 4: Calshie Hoolymarket launched in twenty twenty without registering with the

1113
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 4: Commodity Futures Trading Commission, and was fined one point four

1114
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 4: million dollars by the CFTC in twenty twenty two for

1115
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 4: operating as an unregulated exchange and was held forth prohibited

1116
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:05,479
Speaker 4: from allowing bets from US based users, though the poly

1117
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,760
Speaker 4: Market CEO sees it a little different.

1118
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 16: It was at one point four million dollars fine and

1119
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 16: also was a settlement and you could not have customers

1120
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:14,320
Speaker 16: in the United States.

1121
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, we had to go in geoblock trading in the

1122
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 9: US and move certain operations offshore. And it wasn't hey

1123
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 9: you're banned from trading the US. It's like until you're licensed.

1124
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 16: I mean it was breaking the law.

1125
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:25,479
Speaker 9: I mean people say breaking the law. It's like which

1126
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:29,240
Speaker 9: law you know? So if anything it's incompatible.

1127
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 16: It's incompatible with the law.

1128
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1129
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:32,840
Speaker 5: With the regulatory matrix that existed.

1130
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 4: The past two years, Polymarket has found to be facilitating

1131
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:42,280
Speaker 4: illegal gambling and subsequently banned in the countries of Switzerland, France,

1132
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 4: the UK, Poland, Singapore, Belgium, Romania and Australia. Most of

1133
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 4: these bands just required geoblocking users, which can be easily

1134
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 4: circumvented through the use of a VPN, and since the

1135
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 4: financial transactions on poly market are all done through crypt currency,

1136
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 4: it's not clear that polymarket is taking any steps to

1137
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 4: enforce these bans beyond geo blocking. In the midst of

1138
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 4: facing regulatory hurdles and bands from across the globe, Polymarket

1139
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:18,399
Speaker 4: still exploded in popularity last year, attracting investment from Peter

1140
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 4: Thiel's venture capital firm and hundreds of thousands of new users,

1141
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:28,320
Speaker 4: primarily driven by betting on the US presidential election, speculation

1142
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 4: on whether Biden would drop out of the race and

1143
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 4: who Trump would pick as vice president, all despite the

1144
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 4: platform technically being banned in the United States after the

1145
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 4: first presidential debate in July twenty twenty four, around the

1146
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:46,240
Speaker 4: attempted assassination of Trump and the RNC, Polymarket gained sixty

1147
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:51,240
Speaker 4: thousand new accounts. The year prior, polymarket averaged two thousand,

1148
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:55,319
Speaker 4: three hundred new accounts per month. August twenty twenty four

1149
00:54:55,400 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 4: saw seventy thousand new accounts, September ninety thousand, October three

1150
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 4: hundred thousand. The month after Trump's second inauguration four hundred thousand. Currently,

1151
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 4: polymarket has over sixty thousand daily active traders and hundreds

1152
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 4: of thousands of monthly traders since October twenty twenty four.

1153
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 4: To give another example of their recent growth, in April

1154
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:25,799
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, Polymarket's monthly volume was about three million dollars.

1155
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 4: A year later, it was thirty nine million. In November

1156
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:36,280
Speaker 4: twenty twenty four, it was two point five billion. Last month,

1157
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:51,720
Speaker 4: it was three point seven billion. In summer twenty twenty five,

1158
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:58,320
Speaker 4: cash Ptel's, FBI and the CFTC under Trump dropped investigations

1159
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 4: into whether polymarket was illegally allowing US users to place

1160
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:08,840
Speaker 4: betts using VPNs. Shortly thereafter, Donald Trump Junior's venture capital

1161
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 4: firm invested in the platform, and Trump Junior himself joined

1162
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:18,240
Speaker 4: Polymarket's advisory board. Curiously, a few days after Trump Junior

1163
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:22,400
Speaker 4: joined Polymarket, the Commodity Futures Training Commission announced it was

1164
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 4: going to allow poly market to operate in the United

1165
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 4: States after acquiring another company that held a US license.

1166
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:34,920
Speaker 4: This past October, Trump's own truth Social announced it was

1167
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 4: partnering with Crypto dot Com to launch truth predict Quote,

1168
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 4: a revolutionary prediction market backed by President Trump for enhanced

1169
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:50,839
Speaker 4: decision making unquote. When Barry Weiss's Sixty Minutes did a

1170
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:55,240
Speaker 4: puff piece on Polymarket with its CEO last week, Anderson

1171
00:56:55,320 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 4: Cooper inquired about the risk of insider trading markets, CEO

1172
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,319
Speaker 4: Shane Kaplan seem to think that a little bit of

1173
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 4: insider trading might be good.

1174
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 16: Actually, good predictive markets do rely on someone having some

1175
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 16: inside information.

1176
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think that people going and having an edge

1177
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 9: to the market is a good thing. Obviously, you need

1178
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 9: to curate them, and you need to be really clear

1179
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 9: and strengen on where the line is drawn and like

1180
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 9: sort of ethics, and we spend a lot of time

1181
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 9: on that. But it's sort of an inevitability that this

1182
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:30,400
Speaker 9: will happen and there's a lot of benefits from it

1183
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 9: and people will adapt.

1184
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 4: The CEO did not elaborate on what poly markets practice

1185
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 4: of curating insider trading looks like and where their quote

1186
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 4: unquote stringent line is drawn, because in reality it doesn't

1187
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 4: seem this line exists. They essentially encourage insider trading through

1188
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 4: these vague statements and lack of clear enforcement. From the

1189
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 4: point of view of these platforms, insider trading makes their

1190
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 4: prediction markets more accurate, so it's a net positive, and

1191
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 4: if it fucks over some users on the other side

1192
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 4: of a bet, that's just the cost of business. Last week,

1193
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 4: an alleged insider trader won over a million dollars for

1194
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 4: bets on Google's twenty twenty five year in search rankings

1195
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:21,360
Speaker 4: listing twenty two out of twenty three in the correct order.

1196
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 4: This user has made a series of early bets related

1197
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 4: to Google the past year, like the exact release date

1198
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 4: of Google's Gemini three point zero, which they won one

1199
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty thousand dollars on. But because this polymarket

1200
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 4: user isn't trading stock, there's no clear regulatory mechanism to

1201
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:46,920
Speaker 4: stop this behavior, and polymarket can't reverse these trades because

1202
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 4: they run through the blockchain, not that they would even

1203
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 4: necessarily want to. Professional gambler, political data analyst and poly

1204
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 4: market advisor Nate Silver was also asked about insider trading

1205
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 4: on the China Talk podcast two months ago.

1206
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 17: Are you worried about insider trading with this uh, with

1207
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:09,439
Speaker 17: all this political betting, I mean there's an aspect of like, look,

1208
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 17: these are all crypto Uh, you know you get on

1209
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 17: these markets with crypto and like, like there were markets

1210
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:20,479
Speaker 17: like which way is Suzanne Collins going to vote? And

1211
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 17: you know the sort of the like you know, like

1212
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 17: the tail outcomes for like a legislative assistant in her office?

1213
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 17: Are you know you can make ten times your salary?

1214
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 17: And like a minute, right, what's your what's your think

1215
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 17: think on this?

1216
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 13: For sure?

1217
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 18: I mean, look, I think there are a couple of

1218
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 18: qualifications though, Like, first of all, I think people on

1219
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 18: the inside often aren't as well as a formed as

1220
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 18: they think, and or there are some downsides having an

1221
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 18: inside view and not an outside of you. You might

1222
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 18: drink the kool aid, so to speak, right, you might

1223
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:54,920
Speaker 18: be in a bubble.

1224
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 17: Yeah, look, I mean I mean there are ones where

1225
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 17: it's like you can literally I mean there's been a

1226
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:04,439
Speaker 17: lots of group chats people talking about like very very

1227
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 17: sketchy trades and one way bets that are being made

1228
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 17: in the stock market of like what's.

1229
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 2: Going to happen with a trade deal?

1230
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 17: I mean you can literally be the person who decides

1231
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 17: right and be vetting on the side if weird.

1232
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:20,640
Speaker 18: If there are incentives to make money in a world

1233
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 18: of eight million people, many of them are very competitive,

1234
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 18: and all of whom and on all of them, most

1235
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 18: of them acts to the Internet.

1236
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 13: Right, people are going to find a way a way

1237
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 13: to do it.

1238
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:31,600
Speaker 4: Right, Let's pause here for a sec. What do you

1239
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 4: think Nick goes on to list as a comparison to

1240
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:40,959
Speaker 4: political insider trading as like an unfortunate but somewhat inevitable

1241
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 4: consequence of our evolving system of finance.

1242
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:46,959
Speaker 18: Like in the crypto space, we've seen an increasing number

1243
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 18: of like crypto kidnappings. Right, Well, I mean, that's one

1244
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 18: of the consequences if people are worth vast amounts of

1245
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 18: wealth that isn't very secure it it's just gonna gonna

1246
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 18: happen until you up security or a better or whatever else.

1247
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 18: And so like, you know, I don't think there's necessarily

1248
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 18: anymore or less insider creating on like polymarket than there

1249
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 18: might be for in sports betting sites. We've seen a

1250
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 18: lot of sports betting scandals or for regular equities. You know,

1251
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 18: I believe the literature says that like members of Congress

1252
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:21,960
Speaker 18: achieve abnormal returns from their stock portfolios.

1253
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 13: I have to do I'm sure there's some debate about that.

1254
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 13: I have to like to double check that, right.

1255
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 4: It's fine, Bros. It's just like cryptocurrency kidnapping. It's fine.

1256
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 5: Actually.

1257
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 4: So Nay goes on to say that prediction market insider

1258
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:40,200
Speaker 4: trading isn't that different from congressmen doing insider trading on

1259
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 4: the stock market, or like rigged sports betting, but he

1260
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 4: really neglects to emphasize that those things are also bad

1261
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:53,200
Speaker 4: and should be aggressively clamped down on. That shouldn't be allowed,

1262
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 4: and prediction markets intentionally skirch regulation. They currently have far

1263
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:03,480
Speaker 4: less legal protections for users against unfair practices, and with

1264
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 4: crypto they can be pretty anonymized, enabling bad actors. And

1265
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:12,560
Speaker 4: now news companies are legitimizing turning everyone's phone into a

1266
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 4: corrupt casino for world events, whether that's Israel starving Palestine

1267
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 4: or how many tweets Elon Musk is going to publish

1268
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:25,880
Speaker 4: this week. The day before CALSH announced their partnership agreement

1269
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 4: with CNN and NCNBC, CBS aired a sixty minutes puff

1270
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:34,240
Speaker 4: piece on polymarket, anchored by Anderson Cooper.

1271
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 16: When we met with Copeland last month, more than three

1272
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 16: point six million dollars had been wagered on whether or

1273
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 16: not Venezuela's president Nicholas Muduro would be out of power

1274
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:47,520
Speaker 16: by the end of the year. Polymarket users didn't think,

1275
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 16: so they gave it only a twenty three percent chance.

1276
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 16: And if you buy no on that and you're buying

1277
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 16: it at seventy eight cents and at the end of

1278
01:02:57,040 --> 01:02:58,360
Speaker 16: the year he's still.

1279
01:02:58,120 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 5: In power, yeah, you get a dollar.

1280
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 16: So you've made a profit of.

1281
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 5: Twenty two cents for share.

1282
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 16: I wudn't see why this would be I mean, I

1283
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 16: don't want to use a term addictive, but it would

1284
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 16: be compelling. I mean, maybe it is a tick fier, well,

1285
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 16: certainly compelling.

1286
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:12,520
Speaker 5: This is how I see it.

1287
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 9: If you are into geopolitics, this creates an incentive for

1288
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 9: you to dig in to what's going on in Venezuela

1289
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:20,560
Speaker 9: and try and get an edge.

1290
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 4: Anderson Cooper, who both works for the newly Calshi partnered

1291
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:30,440
Speaker 4: CNN as well as CBS's Sixty Minutes, is so hesitant

1292
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 4: to call this clearly addictive practice addictive, quote unquote compelling.

1293
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:42,320
Speaker 4: Here's how Polymarket CEO Shane Copelan explained the platform earlier

1294
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 4: in this piece.

1295
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 9: It's a site where you can basically bet on current events,

1296
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 9: some sort of question about the future like an election,

1297
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 9: and as a result, when a ton of people are betting,

1298
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:57,200
Speaker 9: you get the betting odds, which basically tell you how

1299
01:03:57,400 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 9: likely each outcome is and how.

1300
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 16: Accurate it is.

1301
01:03:59,880 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 9: It's the most accurate thing we have as mankind right now,

1302
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 9: until someone else creates some sort of super crystal ball.

1303
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:11,959
Speaker 4: Anderson Cooper responds with narration that the CEO quote may

1304
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:17,400
Speaker 4: be prone to hyperbole, but he's definitely onto something unquote.

1305
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:21,760
Speaker 4: In explaining how poly market users attempt to seek truth

1306
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:24,720
Speaker 4: and gain an edge, Copeland told the story of how

1307
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:28,400
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty four, an anonymous French user made over

1308
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 4: eighty million dollars on poly market by betting on Trump

1309
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 4: winning the presidential election, and to bolster his bets, he

1310
01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 4: contracted you goov to conduct private polls in swing states.

1311
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:41,880
Speaker 9: People thought he'd just liked Trump, and he had actually

1312
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 9: commissioned a ton of private polls. He did something called

1313
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 9: neighbor polling, which is you ask people who they think

1314
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 9: their neighbors.

1315
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:49,440
Speaker 5: Are likely to vote for.

1316
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:52,560
Speaker 9: Four scenarios for an election where there's a stigma to

1317
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:54,520
Speaker 9: saying you're going to vote for somebody, and people feel

1318
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:56,800
Speaker 9: some sort of social awkwardness and What he noticed was

1319
01:04:56,840 --> 01:04:59,560
Speaker 9: there was huge discrepancy in the neighbor polling versus the

1320
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 9: normal pole, and the neighbor polling favored Trump enormously.

1321
01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:04,560
Speaker 5: He thought Trump was undervalued.

1322
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 9: If this guy was not able to make eighty million,

1323
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:09,360
Speaker 9: but rather able to make eighty thousand dollars, he would

1324
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:12,240
Speaker 9: have never gone through the hassle. But when you get

1325
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 9: markets that are big enough, you create this incentive for

1326
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 9: people to go above and beyond to try and find truth.

1327
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:20,920
Speaker 4: What the CEO is arguing here is that the sheer

1328
01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 4: scale of money being wagered creates incentive to quote unquote

1329
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 4: find truth. In media discussions of prediction markets, there's this

1330
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:35,720
Speaker 4: specter of objectivity around the gambled odds, which obviously the

1331
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:39,480
Speaker 4: CEO of Polymarket has a personal incentive to encourage. But

1332
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:44,720
Speaker 4: Anderson Cooper here doesn't challenge this notion of capital t

1333
01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:49,400
Speaker 4: truth even though Donald Trump was way ahead in prediction

1334
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:53,720
Speaker 4: market odds back during the twenty twenty election, which had

1335
01:05:53,720 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 4: his chances of winning that election far higher than what

1336
01:05:57,120 --> 01:06:01,640
Speaker 4: pure polling models showed. Well, she claims that prediction markets

1337
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:06,160
Speaker 4: can help journalists quote unquote fact check, but doesn't explain

1338
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 4: how fact can be determined from speculative gambling markets. Where

1339
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:15,760
Speaker 4: is the fact in gambling, Well, we will find out

1340
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:31,840
Speaker 4: after these ads. To quote from poly market advisor Nate

1341
01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:36,200
Speaker 4: Silver's blog The Silver Bulletin quote, It's basically good when

1342
01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:40,600
Speaker 4: people are more exposed to probabilities and they become more normalized.

1343
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:45,160
Speaker 4: But of course I also analyze poles and build probabilistic

1344
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 4: models myself in that capacity, I strongly disagree with the

1345
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:53,600
Speaker 4: notion that prediction markets can serve as a good substitute

1346
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:57,120
Speaker 4: for poles. These sorts of claims are sometimes advanced by

1347
01:06:57,160 --> 01:07:01,400
Speaker 4: the prediction market companies themselves, including Polymarket. To be fair,

1348
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:06,200
Speaker 4: one minor pet peeve is that both reporters and readers

1349
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:12,640
Speaker 4: often confuse probabilities for poll results unquote, As Nate goes

1350
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:15,840
Speaker 4: on to explain, if Trump is up fifty five to

1351
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:20,040
Speaker 4: forty five over Kamala Harris on a prediction market, that's

1352
01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:24,040
Speaker 4: not saying that Trump is expected to win by ten points.

1353
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:27,960
Speaker 4: It means that ten percent more users on the website

1354
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:31,919
Speaker 4: favor Trump winning, which is pretty close to a toss up.

1355
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:36,440
Speaker 4: This confusion is a huge problem which is bolstered in

1356
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:40,600
Speaker 4: both how prediction market companies market their platform but also

1357
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 4: how journalists use gambling data in news stories. If you

1358
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:48,400
Speaker 4: see a social media post, an advertisement, or a random

1359
01:07:48,440 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 4: news segment showing percentages tied to pictures of two politicians

1360
01:07:53,600 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 4: in a race without context, those betting numbers could be

1361
01:07:56,320 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 4: interpreted in a number of ways and influence someone's percent

1362
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:03,320
Speaker 4: exception of an election, and maybe even their choice on

1363
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:06,360
Speaker 4: who to vote for or even whether to vote at all.

1364
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:11,120
Speaker 4: In an October speech, Zora Mumdani reference to Calshi billboards

1365
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:14,920
Speaker 4: predicting a Cuomo victory in the Democratic primary.

1366
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:17,960
Speaker 19: When I walked the length of Manhattan just a few

1367
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:23,200
Speaker 19: days before the election, hundreds of New Yorkers marched alongside me.

1368
01:08:26,120 --> 01:08:27,600
Speaker 13: And when we strolled.

1369
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:30,559
Speaker 19: Into Times Square under a billboard with betting odds that

1370
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:34,680
Speaker 19: showed Cuomo's chances of winning at nearly eighty percent, we

1371
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:37,240
Speaker 19: knew that the so called experts were set to get

1372
01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:46,320
Speaker 19: it wrong yet again. Andrew Cuomo was supposed to be inevitable.

1373
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:50,000
Speaker 19: When you see the Calshi odds that have our chances

1374
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:54,559
Speaker 19: of victory in the nineties, know this. You are reading

1375
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 19: the same things that Andrew Cuomo read when he went

1376
01:08:58,040 --> 01:09:02,360
Speaker 19: to sleep each night in June, believing that his victory

1377
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:08,320
Speaker 19: was promised. We cannot allow complacency to infiltrate this movement.

1378
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:14,040
Speaker 4: Cal She excitedly shared the latter half of that clip,

1379
01:09:14,360 --> 01:09:20,440
Speaker 4: proclaiming breaking zoron Mamdani references his Calci odds on stage,

1380
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:26,920
Speaker 4: Calshi is mainstream unquote despite this clip demonstrating how prediction

1381
01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:32,959
Speaker 4: markets often suffer from inaccurate bias. Last week, Discount Steve Kornaki,

1382
01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:36,320
Speaker 4: former five point thirty eight analyst and now CNN's data expert,

1383
01:09:36,400 --> 01:09:41,320
Speaker 4: Harry Enton shared this segment about the Tennessee District seven

1384
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:44,799
Speaker 4: special election on x the Everything app with the caption

1385
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:48,720
Speaker 4: odds are Dems will come within ten points of a win,

1386
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:50,760
Speaker 4: if not outright win.

1387
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:52,880
Speaker 20: I would say, if you had to look at the

1388
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:56,679
Speaker 20: congressional map any district that Donald Trump won by twenty

1389
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 20: two points, you would say, you know, you've got like

1390
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:01,559
Speaker 20: nearly a one one hundred percent chance of winning if

1391
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:02,680
Speaker 20: you're running for Congress there.

1392
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:04,240
Speaker 13: But what are the prediction markets saying right now?

1393
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:05,840
Speaker 15: You know, what are we talking about in terms of

1394
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:08,599
Speaker 15: the prediction market? Us, Look, the Democrat has a fifteen

1395
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:11,200
Speaker 15: percent chance of winning in that race, Okay, a fifteen

1396
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:13,960
Speaker 15: percent chance, which ain't nothing in a district that Donald

1397
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:17,320
Speaker 15: Trump won by twenty two points. But here I think

1398
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 15: is the key nugget on this side of the of

1399
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 15: the ledger, and that is a GOP win by under

1400
01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:24,439
Speaker 15: ten points. There's a sixty eight percent chance of that.

1401
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:27,680
Speaker 15: So there is a more than two thirds chance that

1402
01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:31,559
Speaker 15: the Republican candidate, Yes, they win, but they win by

1403
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:35,280
Speaker 15: a significantly lower margin than Donald Trump. We're talking about

1404
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:39,960
Speaker 15: double digits, smaller. We're talking about a huge, huge shift.

1405
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:40,080
Speaker 13: To the left.

1406
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:42,559
Speaker 15: We're talking about when you add these two together, we're

1407
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:45,400
Speaker 15: talking about a more than eighty percent chance that there

1408
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:48,080
Speaker 15: is a clear double digit shift to the left, and

1409
01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:50,600
Speaker 15: a fifteen percent chance the Democrat actually wins in a

1410
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:53,320
Speaker 15: district that Donald Trump won by twenty two points. That

1411
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:56,960
Speaker 15: just shows you how bad the environment is for Republicans

1412
01:10:57,040 --> 01:10:58,840
Speaker 15: right now, that the Democrat has any sort of a chance,

1413
01:10:58,840 --> 01:10:59,080
Speaker 15: and this.

1414
01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:02,400
Speaker 4: They talk to you about this, he's just authoritatively rattling

1415
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:07,680
Speaker 4: off complete speculation on a Democrat victory. As big screens

1416
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:13,480
Speaker 4: display percentages in huge text with source Calci in tiny

1417
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:17,880
Speaker 4: text the bottom of the screen. Ordinary polling showed that

1418
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:21,200
Speaker 4: this was a close race that leaned red by two

1419
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:24,559
Speaker 4: to eight points, and the Republican did end up winning

1420
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:29,519
Speaker 4: by nine points. To quote the broken clock Nate silver quote.

1421
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:33,559
Speaker 4: Without having polls to look at, the prediction markets would

1422
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:39,120
Speaker 4: probably kind of suck at making election forecasts. Translating poles

1423
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:43,120
Speaker 4: into probabilities is considerably more complicated when there are many

1424
01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:46,600
Speaker 4: correlated races at once, such as in the battle for

1425
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:51,160
Speaker 4: the electoral College or control of Congress. Prediction markets had

1426
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:54,679
Speaker 4: a strong twenty twenty four in this regard. They leaned

1427
01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:57,880
Speaker 4: toward Trump when our model had it at fifty to fifty.

1428
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:01,400
Speaker 4: I don't think this was because of any special modeling

1429
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:05,160
Speaker 4: insight per se, but because they incorporated some sort of

1430
01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:11,519
Speaker 4: prior intuition that Trump would overperform his polls. Again, so

1431
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:15,479
Speaker 4: give the markets credit for that. These sorts of soft

1432
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:20,920
Speaker 4: quote unquote intangible intuitions can be valuable, though you'd need

1433
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:24,080
Speaker 4: a lot of data to determine whether they add or

1434
01:12:24,120 --> 01:12:28,840
Speaker 4: subtract value in the long run unquote, As Nate himself acknowledges,

1435
01:12:29,240 --> 01:12:32,639
Speaker 4: someone like Andrew Cuomo had much higher betting odds throughout

1436
01:12:32,640 --> 01:12:36,520
Speaker 4: the entire New York mayoral race than a purely statistical

1437
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:40,719
Speaker 4: model would show. A contention. I have with Nate. One

1438
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:46,200
Speaker 4: of many is though I call prediction market numbers gambling odds.

1439
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:53,760
Speaker 4: They are not actual probabilities. These odds aren't based on objective,

1440
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:57,839
Speaker 4: mathematical principles like flipping a coin, the three door problem,

1441
01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 4: or even something like blackjack. These odds are created whole

1442
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:07,920
Speaker 4: cloth through guessing, sometimes educated or data informed guessing, but

1443
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:13,560
Speaker 4: still primarily through people's intuition, which is susceptible to group impulses.

1444
01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:19,080
Speaker 4: Many random world events lack a reliable basis of continuous

1445
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:22,840
Speaker 4: controlled data that's needed to form a probability, like that

1446
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:26,160
Speaker 4: which is applied to legalized sports betting. This is quite

1447
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:29,480
Speaker 4: evident in the betting odds around the Last People Conclave,

1448
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 4: which had very little relevant data to use for informed predictions.

1449
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 4: There was no existing probability to support the election of

1450
01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:42,400
Speaker 4: an American pope, a first time occurrence. With prediction markets,

1451
01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:45,639
Speaker 4: people can still do research to make an informed bet,

1452
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:49,000
Speaker 4: but it's not really the case that X candidate is

1453
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:52,920
Speaker 4: mathematically expected to win an election. Eighty out of one

1454
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:57,760
Speaker 4: hundred instances a hive mind of users have formed that

1455
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:01,920
Speaker 4: statistical division through the power of money, eighty percent of

1456
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:05,759
Speaker 4: users are betting that a certain result is likely to occur.

1457
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:10,320
Speaker 4: So the problem isn't just that, like Nate says, people

1458
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:15,759
Speaker 4: are confusing probabilities for polls. It's that they're confusing prediction

1459
01:14:15,960 --> 01:14:21,320
Speaker 4: market betting odds for mathematical probabilities. It's this difference that

1460
01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:25,599
Speaker 4: allows betting on sports outcomes via Calshian poly market, even

1461
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:29,840
Speaker 4: in states that ban typical sports betting, because you're not

1462
01:14:29,960 --> 01:14:34,680
Speaker 4: actually betting on fixed odds, you're betting against other investors.

1463
01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:39,519
Speaker 4: And now news companies are not just manufacturing consent and

1464
01:14:39,720 --> 01:14:45,000
Speaker 4: normalizing political gambling, but are actively encouraging the use of

1465
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:50,679
Speaker 4: these platforms and endorsing the predictive capacity of these gambling markets.

1466
01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:54,880
Speaker 4: Anderson Cooper calls it the quote unquote wisdom of crowds.

1467
01:14:55,439 --> 01:15:00,840
Speaker 4: But we already have methods for learning group consensus, which

1468
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:05,240
Speaker 4: may have problems, but frankly far fewer problems than gambling

1469
01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:09,759
Speaker 4: on world events. Beyond the moral qualms of betting money

1470
01:15:09,760 --> 01:15:13,880
Speaker 4: on human suffering, prediction markets are susceptible to not just

1471
01:15:14,120 --> 01:15:17,839
Speaker 4: personal bias, but group bias based on the current ratio

1472
01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:21,120
Speaker 4: of odds. This in group consensus can be influenced by

1473
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 4: short lived trending topics, and these platforms cater to a

1474
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:30,200
Speaker 4: hyper online point of view. Prediction market users provide a

1475
01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:35,960
Speaker 4: very non representational sample variety pulling from a very specific

1476
01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:41,080
Speaker 4: type of guy who regularly uses these platforms. To quote

1477
01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:45,960
Speaker 4: from Calsh's CNN Partnership announcement quote, cal she has become

1478
01:15:46,000 --> 01:15:48,559
Speaker 4: the definitive source for staying informed about the future and

1479
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:52,000
Speaker 4: is used by reporters, politicians, pundits, Wall Street and Main

1480
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:54,960
Speaker 4: Street get recently called the New York City mayoral election

1481
01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:59,040
Speaker 4: eight minutes after polls closed, hours before the media. It's

1482
01:15:59,080 --> 01:16:02,599
Speaker 4: because of this accuracy that calci's data will serve as

1483
01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:07,280
Speaker 4: a powerful compliment to CNN's reporting. Journalists can more easily

1484
01:16:07,320 --> 01:16:10,360
Speaker 4: surface credible information to their audiences about the real time

1485
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:16,080
Speaker 4: probabilities of future cultural and political events unquote. In practice,

1486
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:21,840
Speaker 4: this reporting mixes gambling data and actually reputable or credible

1487
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:27,080
Speaker 4: pulls in a confusing way, like this recent CNN segment

1488
01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:30,880
Speaker 4: which cites CALCI odds on whether Trump will send tariff

1489
01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:35,519
Speaker 4: stimulus checks as well as CBS you gov polling data

1490
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:39,160
Speaker 4: on if tarif's lower prices back to back in the

1491
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:41,559
Speaker 4: same segment, do they.

1492
01:16:41,439 --> 01:16:44,639
Speaker 15: Think that the tariffs that these rebate checks are actually coming?

1493
01:16:44,840 --> 01:16:45,679
Speaker 13: And at this point.

1494
01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:50,320
Speaker 15: No, No, I mean chance Trump tariff, the tariff stimulus

1495
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:54,160
Speaker 15: checks are sent to Americans by August of twenty twenty six.

1496
01:16:54,280 --> 01:16:56,599
Speaker 15: It's a twenty five percent chance. That's one in four.

1497
01:16:56,960 --> 01:17:00,320
Speaker 15: So that's not nothing. But the American people right now

1498
01:17:00,439 --> 01:17:04,120
Speaker 15: are craving, craving some relief, and at this point it

1499
01:17:04,200 --> 01:17:06,720
Speaker 15: doesn't look like it is coming. Although I will note

1500
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 15: John Berman, this twenty five percent, it is greater than

1501
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:13,920
Speaker 15: this six percent who say that tars decrease prices, or

1502
01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:16,200
Speaker 15: that five percent back in March, which are just you

1503
01:17:16,280 --> 01:17:19,679
Speaker 15: never see one, two, three, four, five percent. So look,

1504
01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:22,960
Speaker 15: twenty five percent ain't nothing, but at this point it's low.

1505
01:17:23,040 --> 01:17:25,240
Speaker 20: Yeah, it's interesting the prediction markets think they only one

1506
01:17:25,280 --> 01:17:27,000
Speaker 20: in four chance that will actually happen.

1507
01:17:27,040 --> 01:17:31,720
Speaker 4: There is this really what the future of political forecasting

1508
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:36,120
Speaker 4: is going to be? Maybe, maybe not, but there are

1509
01:17:36,280 --> 01:17:41,599
Speaker 4: four horsemen of this political gambling apocalypse. Nate Silver via

1510
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:45,080
Speaker 4: his gamification of election predictions based on his time as

1511
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:49,160
Speaker 4: a professional gambler. Sports betting, especially since the Supreme Court

1512
01:17:49,200 --> 01:17:52,160
Speaker 4: struck down a federal law banning sports betting outside of

1513
01:17:52,200 --> 01:17:56,400
Speaker 4: Nevada in twenty eighteen, resulting in almost forty states subsequently

1514
01:17:56,479 --> 01:17:59,840
Speaker 4: legalizing some form of sports betting, which has facilitated because

1515
01:18:00,280 --> 01:18:02,519
Speaker 4: of gambling to grow dramatically across the country in the

1516
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:06,080
Speaker 4: past ten years through the spread of online sports betting apps.

1517
01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:10,599
Speaker 4: The third horseman is Trump for the Trump administration through

1518
01:18:10,720 --> 01:18:15,920
Speaker 4: their removal of regulatory hurdles facing prediction markets. And finally

1519
01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:20,240
Speaker 4: that CNN guy Harry Enton, a Nate Silver protege who

1520
01:18:20,280 --> 01:18:23,719
Speaker 4: trailblazed the use of political gambling data in news stories

1521
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:28,880
Speaker 4: the past year. These four horsemen, Nate Silver, sports betting, Trump,

1522
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:33,320
Speaker 4: and Harry Enton have created the cultural and political conditions

1523
01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:38,080
Speaker 4: for political gambling to spread. Like wildfire, which, hey, is

1524
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:41,759
Speaker 4: also something you can bet on. During the LA Fires

1525
01:18:42,120 --> 01:18:45,519
Speaker 4: prediction market, users could bet on how many acres would burn.

1526
01:18:46,600 --> 01:18:50,320
Speaker 4: So what is the endgame of this, this gambling apocalypse

1527
01:18:50,320 --> 01:18:52,919
Speaker 4: that seems to be inching its way closer and closer

1528
01:18:53,640 --> 01:18:57,000
Speaker 4: To answer that, Here's a clip from Calshi co founder

1529
01:18:57,040 --> 01:18:59,000
Speaker 4: and CEO Derek Manser.

1530
01:19:00,160 --> 01:19:03,120
Speaker 12: Long term vision is to financialize everything and create a

1531
01:19:03,160 --> 01:19:05,599
Speaker 12: tradable asset out of any difference in opinion. We are

1532
01:19:05,640 --> 01:19:08,240
Speaker 12: living in a word where like we have an abundance

1533
01:19:08,240 --> 01:19:10,080
Speaker 12: of information, but there's a lot of noise, and like

1534
01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:12,280
Speaker 12: we don't really understand what's real from what's not. Our

1535
01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:14,519
Speaker 12: prediction markets are an antidote to that. They do a

1536
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:18,240
Speaker 12: very very good job at distilling information and surfacing truth

1537
01:19:18,280 --> 01:19:20,120
Speaker 12: to people. And you're seeing the sort of massive shift

1538
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:23,000
Speaker 12: where like people are using them whenever they think about

1539
01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:25,920
Speaker 12: questions about the future, you know, whenever they're debating about anything.

1540
01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:28,040
Speaker 12: And I think that trajectory is going to keep going.

1541
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:29,840
Speaker 12: That's a new consumer habit that I don't think is

1542
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:30,639
Speaker 12: going to be undone.

1543
01:19:31,560 --> 01:19:36,080
Speaker 4: This is the demon child of crypto and sports betting,

1544
01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:40,559
Speaker 4: this financialization of everything to form a tradable asset out

1545
01:19:40,560 --> 01:19:45,440
Speaker 4: of any difference in opinion, creating new addictive consumer habits.

1546
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:49,559
Speaker 4: These companies want to apply the logic of smartphone sports

1547
01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:54,400
Speaker 4: betting to everything, where everyone gets to be their own

1548
01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:58,599
Speaker 4: little Nate Silver while carrying around their own digital casino

1549
01:19:58,680 --> 01:20:02,519
Speaker 4: in their pocket, getting addicted to gambling on speculation of

1550
01:20:02,640 --> 01:20:06,960
Speaker 4: world suffering. And CNN is complicit in this. CNN and

1551
01:20:07,040 --> 01:20:10,640
Speaker 4: others have decided to partner with platforms that enable the

1552
01:20:10,680 --> 01:20:12,840
Speaker 4: people who decide when to drop bombs around the world

1553
01:20:12,880 --> 01:20:16,240
Speaker 4: to win millions of dollars by betting money on the

1554
01:20:16,360 --> 01:20:20,240
Speaker 4: choices they themselves are making at the expense of the

1555
01:20:20,280 --> 01:20:23,400
Speaker 4: rest of the world, and these companies think this is

1556
01:20:23,479 --> 01:20:27,040
Speaker 4: a good thing because the betting odds can serve as

1557
01:20:27,040 --> 01:20:30,400
Speaker 4: a potential heads up that something is likely to happen.

1558
01:20:31,280 --> 01:20:35,400
Speaker 4: Simple consumer protections for users, which currently are non existent,

1559
01:20:35,800 --> 01:20:39,519
Speaker 4: are just not enough. Congress needs to be far more

1560
01:20:39,560 --> 01:20:43,080
Speaker 4: involved in regulating online betting, and in the case of

1561
01:20:43,120 --> 01:20:47,240
Speaker 4: political events, it should just be completely banned. It is

1562
01:20:47,320 --> 01:20:51,800
Speaker 4: detrimental to a healthy society. It incentivizes corruption, cruelty, and

1563
01:20:51,880 --> 01:20:56,200
Speaker 4: erodes public trust. Gambling doesn't need to go away entirely,

1564
01:20:56,439 --> 01:20:59,479
Speaker 4: but it should return to being time and location locked.

1565
01:20:59,840 --> 01:21:04,280
Speaker 4: Go to Las Vegas like a fucking adult. Currently, there

1566
01:21:04,400 --> 01:21:10,639
Speaker 4: is no existing mechanism for individual states to regulate prediction markets.

1567
01:21:11,400 --> 01:21:15,960
Speaker 4: Only the federal government can, and Trump's federal government certainly

1568
01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:19,679
Speaker 4: seems like it's not going to considering the President's Sun

1569
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:24,559
Speaker 4: works for both of the main platforms, Klshi and poly market,

1570
01:21:25,320 --> 01:21:29,439
Speaker 4: and while news companies are legitimizing this, these platforms are

1571
01:21:29,479 --> 01:21:34,400
Speaker 4: now working as their own news aggregators, specifically Polymarket's social

1572
01:21:34,439 --> 01:21:38,000
Speaker 4: media account, which is acting as a news aggregation account.

1573
01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:41,360
Speaker 4: Because that drives traffic back to their website, where people

1574
01:21:41,360 --> 01:21:44,400
Speaker 4: can bet on the news stories that poly market is sharing,

1575
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:48,960
Speaker 4: even if those news stories are speculative or completely made up.

1576
01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:54,760
Speaker 4: On December fifth, Polymarket posted quote just in suspected J.

1577
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:58,280
Speaker 4: Six pipe Bomber's legal council projected to argue he was

1578
01:21:58,320 --> 01:22:03,680
Speaker 4: included in Trump's pardon of those involved in January sixth unquote.

1579
01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:07,639
Speaker 4: This claim subsequently spread all around the Internet, parroted by

1580
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:11,640
Speaker 4: people of a variety of political orientations. But if you

1581
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:16,360
Speaker 4: read closely, the original post says suspected J six Pipe

1582
01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:22,160
Speaker 4: Bomber's legal council projected to argue he was included in

1583
01:22:22,240 --> 01:22:27,240
Speaker 4: Trump's pardon, polymarket is just spreading gambling information as if

1584
01:22:27,280 --> 01:22:31,720
Speaker 4: it is news content. Quote unquote. Projected just means that

1585
01:22:31,800 --> 01:22:36,719
Speaker 4: polymarket users are betting on this, But these projected posts

1586
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:40,439
Speaker 4: are mixed in with other posts just aggregating the day's news.

1587
01:22:41,320 --> 01:22:44,840
Speaker 4: So unless you are paying super close attention, which rarely

1588
01:22:44,880 --> 01:22:48,280
Speaker 4: people on the Internet are, this becomes a trojan horse

1589
01:22:48,479 --> 01:22:53,320
Speaker 4: of disinformation. When news companies use the term projected on

1590
01:22:53,400 --> 01:22:58,960
Speaker 4: election night, usually that indicates with pretty clear mathematical certainty

1591
01:22:59,000 --> 01:23:02,800
Speaker 4: that an event is going to happen. When Polymarket uses

1592
01:23:02,920 --> 01:23:08,000
Speaker 4: projected in news tweets, It only indicates that Internet gamblers

1593
01:23:08,360 --> 01:23:11,360
Speaker 4: are swinging around money in an effort to create truth

1594
01:23:12,120 --> 01:23:16,320
Speaker 4: with once legitimate news companies not just complicit but active

1595
01:23:16,360 --> 01:23:21,320
Speaker 4: participants in this process. That doesn't for us today at

1596
01:23:21,400 --> 01:23:36,080
Speaker 4: it could happen here. See you on the other side.

1597
01:23:37,080 --> 01:23:41,800
Speaker 11: Hello, and welcome to Achnapan Here. I'm Andrew's age also

1598
01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:49,599
Speaker 11: known as Andreism, and I'm joined once again by That's.

1599
01:23:49,439 --> 01:23:54,880
Speaker 13: A q mea Wong girl who was really really the

1600
01:23:54,920 --> 01:23:57,280
Speaker 13: first time was like I Am not going to miss

1601
01:23:57,280 --> 01:24:00,800
Speaker 13: my cue this time, and then this time I was like, oh,

1602
01:24:00,840 --> 01:24:02,639
Speaker 13: I'm waiting for the queue, and then it was like shit,

1603
01:24:02,760 --> 01:24:05,599
Speaker 13: that's the cue. And it took my brain like several

1604
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:09,519
Speaker 13: seconds to be like, oh no, it would be very

1605
01:24:09,520 --> 01:24:11,840
Speaker 13: funny if the editors just edited out the pause so

1606
01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:14,040
Speaker 13: everyone has no idea what I'm talking about.

1607
01:24:14,800 --> 01:24:19,840
Speaker 11: That's that would be hilarious actually, But there was unaware

1608
01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:23,000
Speaker 11: that was like a ten second pause before me I

1609
01:24:23,040 --> 01:24:23,479
Speaker 11: came in.

1610
01:24:24,439 --> 01:24:28,960
Speaker 13: No really truly, this is mia on like three hours

1611
01:24:28,960 --> 01:24:33,040
Speaker 13: of sleep brain. I was like, oh, yeah, right, the

1612
01:24:33,120 --> 01:24:36,000
Speaker 13: cue is going to come. But then it things going

1613
01:24:36,040 --> 01:24:39,120
Speaker 13: great for BeO Loong, the other person who's on the show.

1614
01:24:39,960 --> 01:24:42,320
Speaker 13: You know who I am statistically if you're listening to

1615
01:24:42,320 --> 01:24:44,679
Speaker 13: the show who, of course?

1616
01:24:46,000 --> 01:24:49,040
Speaker 11: I mean speaking of seconds. By the way, in those

1617
01:24:49,080 --> 01:24:53,720
Speaker 11: ten seconds that you were waiting for your queue that

1618
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:58,800
Speaker 11: had already passed, hundreds of people were born, you know,

1619
01:24:58,880 --> 01:25:04,240
Speaker 11: every second where someone is being born. Like other animals,

1620
01:25:04,320 --> 01:25:09,640
Speaker 11: humans have this tendency to multiply. But should they That

1621
01:25:09,760 --> 01:25:12,320
Speaker 11: is the question of the day. This is the last

1622
01:25:12,360 --> 01:25:16,800
Speaker 11: episode I was on. We spoke about the worries surrounding populasia.

1623
01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:19,280
Speaker 11: You know, whether we have too many people or too

1624
01:25:19,320 --> 01:25:22,840
Speaker 11: few people. But the question of making people or not

1625
01:25:23,040 --> 01:25:27,000
Speaker 11: making them has been the subject of a few ideological classes.

1626
01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:30,719
Speaker 11: There's a whole movement of thinkers who argue that bringing

1627
01:25:31,040 --> 01:25:34,400
Speaker 11: new life into the world is a big mistake. These

1628
01:25:34,439 --> 01:25:38,200
Speaker 11: are the anti natilists. And on the other side you

1629
01:25:38,280 --> 01:25:42,920
Speaker 11: have those who say that having children is good and essential.

1630
01:25:43,080 --> 01:25:46,559
Speaker 11: That's the pro natalist camp. So in this episode will

1631
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:50,120
Speaker 11: be getting into that tug of war philosophically and weighing

1632
01:25:50,160 --> 01:25:52,559
Speaker 11: the issues with both. Because I'm not going to make

1633
01:25:52,600 --> 01:25:55,640
Speaker 11: it a secret, I'm not a fan of either of them.

1634
01:25:55,880 --> 01:25:57,320
Speaker 11: I don't know how do you feel.

1635
01:25:57,120 --> 01:25:59,800
Speaker 13: About Yeah, this is the one good Stalin quote. They're

1636
01:25:59,800 --> 01:26:05,800
Speaker 13: both worse, So we have to pick among those twos.

1637
01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:08,000
Speaker 13: Let's start with the anti natilists.

1638
01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:11,479
Speaker 11: I don't what's the kind of gut reaction or impression

1639
01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:14,480
Speaker 11: you get from those those folks.

1640
01:26:15,120 --> 01:26:15,519
Speaker 5: I don't know.

1641
01:26:15,560 --> 01:26:19,640
Speaker 13: I think there's a combination of stuff that's largely harmless

1642
01:26:20,240 --> 01:26:25,040
Speaker 13: and sometimes is funny. Like you get protested people pulling

1643
01:26:25,120 --> 01:26:26,680
Speaker 13: up signs that are like I didn't ask to be

1644
01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:29,200
Speaker 13: born or didn't consent to be born. It's like, sure,

1645
01:26:29,640 --> 01:26:32,120
Speaker 13: but then then there's also people just doing masshootings about it.

1646
01:26:32,160 --> 01:26:34,600
Speaker 13: So it's great, it's it's a good time. It's a

1647
01:26:34,680 --> 01:26:36,240
Speaker 13: very normal time for politics.

1648
01:26:37,280 --> 01:26:42,240
Speaker 11: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean when I think of them,

1649
01:26:42,280 --> 01:26:45,880
Speaker 11: I tend to think cringe and Reddit. But they actually

1650
01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:50,800
Speaker 11: have a philosophy outside of Reddit forums. So, according to

1651
01:26:50,840 --> 01:26:54,800
Speaker 11: the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, anti natilism is the view

1652
01:26:54,840 --> 01:27:01,080
Speaker 11: that it is either always or usually morally impermissible to Brookery. Now,

1653
01:27:01,160 --> 01:27:03,120
Speaker 11: most of us grew up with the idea that life

1654
01:27:03,240 --> 01:27:07,599
Speaker 11: is inherently valuable, right, but anti natilists disagree. They see

1655
01:27:07,640 --> 01:27:11,000
Speaker 11: life as a bruden rather than a gift. Very edgy,

1656
01:27:11,640 --> 01:27:14,280
Speaker 11: very read it but you know, it's something that has

1657
01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:18,160
Speaker 11: been around since before the Internet. While not himself an

1658
01:27:18,200 --> 01:27:23,000
Speaker 11: anti natalist, the German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer, who lived in

1659
01:27:23,000 --> 01:27:26,400
Speaker 11: the nineteenth century, is taught by some anti natalists as

1660
01:27:26,400 --> 01:27:30,760
Speaker 11: a contributor to their philosophical foundations. In his descriptions of

1661
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:36,599
Speaker 11: life as constant, striving, frustration and pain. In the twentieth century,

1662
01:27:36,800 --> 01:27:42,240
Speaker 11: the Romanian writer Emil Choran argued that non existence is

1663
01:27:42,280 --> 01:27:47,360
Speaker 11: the ultimate form of peace. His philosophical pessimism regarded individual

1664
01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:50,439
Speaker 11: life and human history as a whole as a record

1665
01:27:50,600 --> 01:27:55,960
Speaker 11: of error, illusion and futility, and most famously, South African

1666
01:27:55,960 --> 01:27:59,360
Speaker 11: philosopher David Bennetta laid out one of the main anti

1667
01:27:59,439 --> 01:28:03,080
Speaker 11: natilists are in his book Better Never to Have been

1668
01:28:03,640 --> 01:28:07,240
Speaker 11: the harm of coming into existence. It's a bang a siteo.

1669
01:28:07,280 --> 01:28:12,360
Speaker 11: Though now you can find theoretical contributions to anti natilists

1670
01:28:12,400 --> 01:28:16,679
Speaker 11: thought in Buddhism's idea that life is suffering or incidant

1671
01:28:16,720 --> 01:28:20,960
Speaker 11: interpretations of it rather or incident gnostic traditions that sow

1672
01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:25,479
Speaker 11: the material world itself as a kind of cosmic mistake. Now,

1673
01:28:25,479 --> 01:28:27,800
Speaker 11: there are a lot of reasons that anti natilists put

1674
01:28:27,840 --> 01:28:32,080
Speaker 11: forward for their stance. There are philanthropic and misanthropic arguments

1675
01:28:32,080 --> 01:28:35,840
Speaker 11: of antinautilism. You know, the philanthropic ones focus on harm

1676
01:28:35,880 --> 01:28:38,960
Speaker 11: to the individual who is brought into existence, while the

1677
01:28:39,120 --> 01:28:41,800
Speaker 11: misanthropic arguments tend to focus on the harm that new

1678
01:28:41,800 --> 01:28:45,599
Speaker 11: people cause to the will. So there's the consent argument

1679
01:28:45,720 --> 01:28:48,240
Speaker 11: that Mia would have mentioned. You know, basically a child

1680
01:28:48,240 --> 01:28:51,080
Speaker 11: that cannot consent to be inborn, so by creating them,

1681
01:28:51,120 --> 01:28:53,680
Speaker 11: you're forcing them into life. They didn't ask for a

1682
01:28:53,800 --> 01:28:58,400
Speaker 11: life that will inevitably include suffering. Another argument is in

1683
01:28:58,479 --> 01:29:01,800
Speaker 11: that sort of negative utilityanism camp. It's the idea that

1684
01:29:01,880 --> 01:29:06,880
Speaker 11: our moral priority should be reducing suffering, not increase in happiness.

1685
01:29:07,400 --> 01:29:11,200
Speaker 11: In fact, they don't see the potential or actuality of

1686
01:29:11,240 --> 01:29:15,400
Speaker 11: pleasure as an offset to suffering at all. You know,

1687
01:29:15,600 --> 01:29:19,240
Speaker 11: under their view, even a single unit of suffering is unacceptable,

1688
01:29:19,560 --> 01:29:23,439
Speaker 11: and since every new life will include suffering, not creating

1689
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:26,759
Speaker 11: life is the surest way to reduce it. If Benetta

1690
01:29:26,960 --> 01:29:30,960
Speaker 11: had the famous asymmetry argument, which is that the presence

1691
01:29:31,000 --> 01:29:33,840
Speaker 11: of pain is bad, the presence of pleasure is good,

1692
01:29:34,200 --> 01:29:37,160
Speaker 11: but the absence of pain is always good. Even if

1693
01:29:37,200 --> 01:29:40,439
Speaker 11: no one appreciates that good and the absence of pleasure

1694
01:29:40,680 --> 01:29:44,719
Speaker 11: isn't bad unless there's someone missing out. So put simply,

1695
01:29:44,760 --> 01:29:48,040
Speaker 11: according to the argument, by not having a child, you

1696
01:29:48,160 --> 01:29:53,799
Speaker 11: avoid guaranteed suffering without depriving any person of joy because

1697
01:29:53,840 --> 01:29:58,320
Speaker 11: that person doesn't exist. So that equation is probably one

1698
01:29:58,320 --> 01:30:00,040
Speaker 11: of the main pillars i'd say of the ant i

1699
01:30:00,120 --> 01:30:13,120
Speaker 11: need lists as a movement. You know, you might be

1700
01:30:13,160 --> 01:30:16,800
Speaker 11: thinking to yourself, Oh, but I'm glad to be alive. No,

1701
01:30:16,880 --> 01:30:22,280
Speaker 11: you're not. According according to Bennetta and the anti natalists,

1702
01:30:23,040 --> 01:30:24,439
Speaker 11: you're deluded to think.

1703
01:30:24,520 --> 01:30:24,600
Speaker 21: So.

1704
01:30:24,960 --> 01:30:32,080
Speaker 11: The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy calls it the deluded gladness argument. Basically,

1705
01:30:32,240 --> 01:30:36,320
Speaker 11: your positive view of your own life is unreliable. Better

1706
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:40,200
Speaker 11: argues that we have cognitive biases like optimism and selective

1707
01:30:40,240 --> 01:30:44,200
Speaker 11: memory and so on, which distort how viciously we assess

1708
01:30:44,240 --> 01:30:47,640
Speaker 11: our own suffering. So many good life reports, even if

1709
01:30:47,680 --> 01:30:49,679
Speaker 11: you think you have a good life or a decent life,

1710
01:30:50,120 --> 01:30:53,080
Speaker 11: you're deceiving yourself, according to him, Do you think people

1711
01:30:53,120 --> 01:30:55,920
Speaker 11: are deceiving themselves when they say that they enjoy their lives?

1712
01:30:56,920 --> 01:31:02,960
Speaker 13: You know, this entire line of argument is just making

1713
01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:05,360
Speaker 13: me be like, you need to do less philosophy and

1714
01:31:05,439 --> 01:31:09,719
Speaker 13: like go outside and live. Like it's just.

1715
01:31:09,600 --> 01:31:11,559
Speaker 11: Like, yeah, I mean I get the whole thing about

1716
01:31:11,640 --> 01:31:14,680
Speaker 11: you know, all mental bias towards optimism and that kind

1717
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:19,280
Speaker 11: of thing, but that doesn't invalidate the joy of people

1718
01:31:19,560 --> 01:31:20,639
Speaker 11: appreciating their life.

1719
01:31:21,240 --> 01:31:25,160
Speaker 13: Yeah, it's like this. This sounds like the exact script

1720
01:31:25,240 --> 01:31:30,200
Speaker 13: you get in your head when you're really depressed. It's like, okay,

1721
01:31:30,320 --> 01:31:34,880
Speaker 13: like have you considered getting your depression managed and getting

1722
01:31:34,880 --> 01:31:38,840
Speaker 13: help for it instead of like doing philosophy about it.

1723
01:31:39,439 --> 01:31:41,480
Speaker 11: I feel like you would be an antenatilist.

1724
01:31:41,920 --> 01:31:44,640
Speaker 13: Oh you're yeah.

1725
01:31:45,040 --> 01:31:46,960
Speaker 11: Another thing murders well.

1726
01:31:46,960 --> 01:31:51,000
Speaker 13: And it's also frustrating because it's like the most compelling

1727
01:31:51,360 --> 01:31:55,920
Speaker 13: version of this argument is about like this world right

1728
01:31:55,960 --> 01:31:59,719
Speaker 13: now is absolutely dog shit and I can't justify bringing

1729
01:31:59,760 --> 01:32:04,040
Speaker 13: someone into it. But that's like too grounded. It's all

1730
01:32:04,080 --> 01:32:06,280
Speaker 13: these people are like, no, no, no, no, Actually, here's like

1731
01:32:06,320 --> 01:32:09,439
Speaker 13: this philosophy that proves that that life bad.

1732
01:32:09,600 --> 01:32:14,400
Speaker 11: And it's like, uh, I mean there are antonielists arguments

1733
01:32:14,400 --> 01:32:17,720
Speaker 11: that do get into that more grounded Oh yeah, definitely, yeah,

1734
01:32:17,760 --> 01:32:21,840
Speaker 11: thing you know that they have one argument about multiplying suffering, right,

1735
01:32:21,880 --> 01:32:23,880
Speaker 11: because every child you bring into the bull is in

1736
01:32:24,120 --> 01:32:26,840
Speaker 11: just one pouson. You know, they have the potential to

1737
01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:30,360
Speaker 11: have truer themselves and grandchildren and so on, multiplying the

1738
01:32:30,439 --> 01:32:34,240
Speaker 11: chances of pain, disease, loss suffering down the generations.

1739
01:32:34,400 --> 01:32:36,880
Speaker 13: It's like, this is like long termism. Shit, it's just

1740
01:32:36,920 --> 01:32:40,320
Speaker 13: like instead of like actually analyzing the world, we're going

1741
01:32:40,360 --> 01:32:46,200
Speaker 13: to build unbelievably complicated and completely meaningless, like abstract models

1742
01:32:46,240 --> 01:32:50,479
Speaker 13: of it and try to base our things off of that.

1743
01:32:51,160 --> 01:32:51,360
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1744
01:32:51,439 --> 01:32:54,360
Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean it's it's destally ridiculous. Now I understand.

1745
01:32:54,439 --> 01:32:56,640
Speaker 11: You know, our truck record isn't the best. You know,

1746
01:32:56,680 --> 01:32:59,960
Speaker 11: they have their plagues and slavery and genocide, environmental the strut,

1747
01:33:01,280 --> 01:33:03,519
Speaker 11: and some of them say, well that's the best thing.

1748
01:33:03,640 --> 01:33:06,679
Speaker 11: The best thing we could do is to voluntarily go extinct,

1749
01:33:06,800 --> 01:33:08,519
Speaker 11: you know, to step off the stage of the earth.

1750
01:33:09,280 --> 01:33:12,240
Speaker 11: And that connects with the general misanthropy, and I think

1751
01:33:12,280 --> 01:33:15,439
Speaker 11: the misanthropic argument that humans are some kind of blight

1752
01:33:16,040 --> 01:33:19,880
Speaker 11: on the world. Yeah, and they're antilists who take it

1753
01:33:19,880 --> 01:33:22,760
Speaker 11: a step further as well, And they're not just antilists

1754
01:33:22,800 --> 01:33:26,720
Speaker 11: for humans, they're universal antiists. So they believe that not

1755
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:31,439
Speaker 11: just human births are problematic, but existence itself. Sentient beings

1756
01:33:31,520 --> 01:33:34,760
Speaker 11: across the board, human or animal are better off never

1757
01:33:34,880 --> 01:33:36,400
Speaker 11: being brought into life at all.

1758
01:33:37,360 --> 01:33:40,519
Speaker 13: Really, truly, at this point, brother, this is a you problem.

1759
01:33:41,320 --> 01:33:45,240
Speaker 13: You just don't like existing, Like we can work on that.

1760
01:33:45,360 --> 01:33:49,320
Speaker 13: But this is not a philosophical thake, like you're just depressed, Like,

1761
01:33:49,400 --> 01:33:51,320
Speaker 13: come on, what are we doing here?

1762
01:33:52,240 --> 01:33:52,439
Speaker 9: Yeah?

1763
01:33:52,479 --> 01:33:55,720
Speaker 11: I mean, antonism is making some very heavy claims and

1764
01:33:55,720 --> 01:33:58,200
Speaker 11: they're obviously going to be coming to arguments because people

1765
01:33:58,240 --> 01:34:00,360
Speaker 11: are going to roll over with the kind of as

1766
01:34:00,400 --> 01:34:04,200
Speaker 11: solutions that it makes. The most intuitive anser I would

1767
01:34:04,200 --> 01:34:08,439
Speaker 11: give is that yes, life involves suffering, but it also

1768
01:34:08,479 --> 01:34:12,960
Speaker 11: includes pleasure and joy and creativity and achievements, and for

1769
01:34:13,160 --> 01:34:17,720
Speaker 11: most people, those positives outweigh the negatives. And if you're

1770
01:34:17,720 --> 01:34:20,880
Speaker 11: a radical, you recognize that some of the negatives of

1771
01:34:21,000 --> 01:34:25,919
Speaker 11: life are not inevitable. The famines, the wars, the suffering,

1772
01:34:25,960 --> 01:34:29,160
Speaker 11: the poverty, it's not inevitable. It's a product of economic

1773
01:34:29,160 --> 01:34:32,160
Speaker 11: and political systems that we have the power to change.

1774
01:34:32,680 --> 01:34:35,799
Speaker 11: And yes, there will always be suffering. They may always

1775
01:34:35,800 --> 01:34:40,320
Speaker 11: be some diseases, there will always be death, right, but

1776
01:34:40,680 --> 01:34:44,360
Speaker 11: that doesn't mean that existence is worse than non existence.

1777
01:34:45,000 --> 01:34:47,679
Speaker 11: I'm glad to exist me, I feel like you're probably

1778
01:34:47,720 --> 01:34:49,720
Speaker 11: glad to exist. I'm glad you.

1779
01:34:49,720 --> 01:34:53,880
Speaker 13: Exist, yeah, most of the time. Like this is a

1780
01:34:53,880 --> 01:34:57,120
Speaker 13: distinct improvement for positions I have been in. But like, yeah,

1781
01:34:57,320 --> 01:35:01,360
Speaker 13: it's nice. Yes, you know, like even even in the

1782
01:35:01,400 --> 01:35:04,599
Speaker 13: middle of like the hell world, it's nice.

1783
01:35:04,920 --> 01:35:10,360
Speaker 11: Yeah, And yeah, the biases may skew our perspective, but

1784
01:35:10,560 --> 01:35:13,960
Speaker 11: the fact that we overwhelmingly choose life itself is a

1785
01:35:14,000 --> 01:35:17,360
Speaker 11: reason too not throw it out, you know, whis people

1786
01:35:17,400 --> 01:35:19,479
Speaker 11: are given the choice do you want to live right now?

1787
01:35:19,520 --> 01:35:21,880
Speaker 11: And I mostly people want to say they're going to live,

1788
01:35:22,439 --> 01:35:26,320
Speaker 11: you know. Yeah, and yes, we don't consent to be inborn,

1789
01:35:27,160 --> 01:35:28,920
Speaker 11: but there are other things that we don't consent to

1790
01:35:29,000 --> 01:35:32,080
Speaker 11: that we still benefit from. You know, in funds, don't

1791
01:35:32,240 --> 01:35:36,800
Speaker 11: consent to be vaccinated, but it's it's something that benefits them,

1792
01:35:36,920 --> 01:35:41,679
Speaker 11: you know. We educate in funds, we restrain them from danger.

1793
01:35:41,800 --> 01:35:44,320
Speaker 11: We don't ask their permission necessarily to do these things,

1794
01:35:44,360 --> 01:35:47,599
Speaker 11: but it's just for their well being, for their benefit.

1795
01:35:47,920 --> 01:35:50,360
Speaker 11: And I don't think while consent is an important factor

1796
01:35:50,800 --> 01:35:52,880
Speaker 11: in the way that we engage as others, I don't

1797
01:35:52,880 --> 01:35:56,600
Speaker 11: think consent is the only factor for a framework of

1798
01:35:56,640 --> 01:36:00,560
Speaker 11: determining what is moral and immoral. You know, you can't

1799
01:36:01,200 --> 01:36:05,200
Speaker 11: use consent to determine whether it's moral or not to exist.

1800
01:36:05,880 --> 01:36:09,280
Speaker 11: I don't feel like those two pieces mashed together very well.

1801
01:36:10,080 --> 01:36:10,400
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1802
01:36:10,479 --> 01:36:12,880
Speaker 13: Well, and also I think like there are so many

1803
01:36:12,920 --> 01:36:15,920
Speaker 13: other things that we didn't consent to, you know, like

1804
01:36:16,200 --> 01:36:17,360
Speaker 13: this is another thing that's talking. It is like we

1805
01:36:17,400 --> 01:36:20,880
Speaker 13: never consented to die. On a less metaphysical level, I

1806
01:36:20,920 --> 01:36:24,040
Speaker 13: don't know, like I didn't consent to like to live

1807
01:36:24,200 --> 01:36:28,400
Speaker 13: under this state, yeah, where you know they're like doing

1808
01:36:28,479 --> 01:36:32,280
Speaker 13: helicopter raids on apartment buildings and like dragging naked children

1809
01:36:32,360 --> 01:36:34,280
Speaker 13: screaming away from their parents in the middle of the night,

1810
01:36:34,360 --> 01:36:37,280
Speaker 13: Like you know that, And that's a thing that you

1811
01:36:37,360 --> 01:36:41,000
Speaker 13: can actually actively do something about that you didn't consent to.

1812
01:36:41,080 --> 01:36:43,400
Speaker 13: That is actively harming you and everyone else around you

1813
01:36:43,960 --> 01:36:48,400
Speaker 13: versus like being born and making that the thing that

1814
01:36:48,479 --> 01:36:51,320
Speaker 13: you're doing is like okay, like we didn't get to

1815
01:36:51,320 --> 01:36:53,040
Speaker 13: live in or capitalism. We didn't we didn't get sent

1816
01:36:53,080 --> 01:36:55,160
Speaker 13: to colonialism, Like we didn't geet to any of the shit,

1817
01:36:55,400 --> 01:36:58,880
Speaker 13: and that's something you could, you know, make not happen

1818
01:36:59,400 --> 01:37:02,840
Speaker 13: versus you being born, which there is nothing you can

1819
01:37:02,880 --> 01:37:05,120
Speaker 13: do to change the fact that you were born. And

1820
01:37:05,160 --> 01:37:07,280
Speaker 13: it's like, oh, well, focus the next generation. Yeah, you

1821
01:37:07,280 --> 01:37:10,360
Speaker 13: want you want to focus on like reducing the amount

1822
01:37:10,400 --> 01:37:12,599
Speaker 13: of suffering the next generation will create in the world.

1823
01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:14,879
Speaker 13: Have you considered like climate change?

1824
01:37:15,160 --> 01:37:20,800
Speaker 11: Yeah? Yeah, I also think that on a broader level, right,

1825
01:37:21,360 --> 01:37:23,160
Speaker 11: I think it's good to be questioned some of the

1826
01:37:23,200 --> 01:37:27,240
Speaker 11: intuitions that we may have, you know, even if they're

1827
01:37:27,240 --> 01:37:30,080
Speaker 11: our deepest moral intuitions. I think it's good to maybe

1828
01:37:30,880 --> 01:37:34,479
Speaker 11: consider them or to be thoughtful about them. But also,

1829
01:37:34,680 --> 01:37:39,479
Speaker 11: as the incent Encyclopedia of Philosophy argues, if a theory

1830
01:37:39,560 --> 01:37:42,360
Speaker 11: implies that the creation of all human life is a

1831
01:37:42,400 --> 01:37:47,559
Speaker 11: moral mistake, that conclusion itself might be reason to doubt

1832
01:37:47,600 --> 01:37:53,479
Speaker 11: the theory. This is something called the repugnant conclusion objection.

1833
01:37:54,280 --> 01:37:57,960
Speaker 11: I mean, because it's it's repugnant. It's intuitively repugnant to

1834
01:37:58,040 --> 01:38:01,559
Speaker 11: most people to hear that existence is a mistake. Nobody

1835
01:38:01,560 --> 01:38:02,240
Speaker 11: should be alive.

1836
01:38:02,920 --> 01:38:03,160
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1837
01:38:03,200 --> 01:38:05,720
Speaker 13: I was like, well, no, absolutely not.

1838
01:38:07,680 --> 01:38:10,080
Speaker 11: Get your shit worked out exactly.

1839
01:38:10,720 --> 01:38:12,479
Speaker 13: Betray to logic here, not great.

1840
01:38:12,600 --> 01:38:14,680
Speaker 11: Like you were saying, Yeah, there'll be a lot of

1841
01:38:14,680 --> 01:38:18,080
Speaker 11: things in the world that suck right now that cause suffering,

1842
01:38:18,600 --> 01:38:21,400
Speaker 11: and there's a lot of present joy is alongside that

1843
01:38:21,439 --> 01:38:24,559
Speaker 11: present suffering. But there's also the value to be had

1844
01:38:24,680 --> 01:38:30,320
Speaker 11: in that potential joy. You know, the potential possibilities have value.

1845
01:38:30,360 --> 01:38:35,360
Speaker 11: If potential suffering has value, potential joys should also have value.

1846
01:38:35,680 --> 01:38:39,120
Speaker 11: The potential of creating a batter world, each new child

1847
01:38:39,280 --> 01:38:45,480
Speaker 11: bringing the potential for greater love, for incredible arts and crafts,

1848
01:38:45,720 --> 01:38:48,840
Speaker 11: for scientific breakthrough, is for reshaping the world in a

1849
01:38:48,880 --> 01:38:53,280
Speaker 11: positive direction. You know, the potential for the unique goods

1850
01:38:53,360 --> 01:38:57,640
Speaker 11: that each individual life can bring, I believe justifies the

1851
01:38:57,760 --> 01:39:01,040
Speaker 11: risk of suffering because the world without those future goods

1852
01:39:01,400 --> 01:39:07,639
Speaker 11: would be worse than a world with them. And yes,

1853
01:39:07,840 --> 01:39:10,680
Speaker 11: humanity can cause harm. Where we are also capable of

1854
01:39:10,720 --> 01:39:15,000
Speaker 11: extraordinary good we can change, we can reduce suffering over time,

1855
01:39:15,080 --> 01:39:17,160
Speaker 11: new generations are going to be part of that solution,

1856
01:39:18,120 --> 01:39:21,920
Speaker 11: I will say, though two anti nationalists credit. One of

1857
01:39:21,960 --> 01:39:26,040
Speaker 11: the points of the Internet and Psychlopedia of Philosophy points

1858
01:39:26,040 --> 01:39:29,520
Speaker 11: out is that the debate of what anti natialism is theoretical.

1859
01:39:29,680 --> 01:39:35,519
Speaker 11: You know, this is stuffy philosophers sitting around exchanging notes

1860
01:39:35,600 --> 01:39:39,120
Speaker 11: and writing books. Right, Most of its advocates are not

1861
01:39:39,200 --> 01:39:44,439
Speaker 11: actually putting forward policies that are restricting people's ability to

1862
01:39:44,520 --> 01:39:47,439
Speaker 11: create life. But the same cannot be said for the

1863
01:39:47,560 --> 01:40:02,200
Speaker 11: other side of the coin, the pro natalists. Yep. So,

1864
01:40:02,280 --> 01:40:06,280
Speaker 11: in broad terms, pronatalism or just natalism is the belief

1865
01:40:06,280 --> 01:40:09,799
Speaker 11: that reproduction is a societal good or even the society

1866
01:40:09,920 --> 01:40:14,000
Speaker 11: needs more children. This movement is getting louder and louder

1867
01:40:14,040 --> 01:40:17,439
Speaker 11: these days. It's shaping policy debates in the US, in Europe,

1868
01:40:17,479 --> 01:40:19,840
Speaker 11: in Asia and beyond, because, as I mentioned in the

1869
01:40:19,880 --> 01:40:25,000
Speaker 11: previous episode, fertility rates are falling almost everywhere. Countries like

1870
01:40:25,120 --> 01:40:27,679
Speaker 11: South Korea, Italy, Japan, and the US are seeing fewer

1871
01:40:27,680 --> 01:40:30,920
Speaker 11: booths than needed to sustain their current populations. So you're

1872
01:40:30,920 --> 01:40:33,920
Speaker 11: going to be seeing pronatalism in various forms, shown up

1873
01:40:33,960 --> 01:40:37,679
Speaker 11: in politics and even in tech circles, especially in those

1874
01:40:37,720 --> 01:40:42,760
Speaker 11: ways texicles. Now, pronatalism is a broad umbrella. You know,

1875
01:40:42,920 --> 01:40:46,840
Speaker 11: you can have the mild position of supporting families with policies,

1876
01:40:47,439 --> 01:40:49,760
Speaker 11: and most people are not opposed to that, but you

1877
01:40:49,840 --> 01:40:53,719
Speaker 11: also have the strong pronatalist stands which is actually urging

1878
01:40:53,960 --> 01:40:59,920
Speaker 11: or incentivizing or mandating both for cultural, economic, or ideological reasons.

1879
01:41:00,880 --> 01:41:04,880
Speaker 11: Pronatalism was motivated by a few different reasons. You know,

1880
01:41:04,880 --> 01:41:08,040
Speaker 11: there's the economic anxiety of a shrink in population meaning

1881
01:41:08,120 --> 01:41:12,439
Speaker 11: fewer workers, more retirees, and strained pension systems. There's a

1882
01:41:12,560 --> 01:41:17,600
Speaker 11: nationalistic argument of worries about cultural continuity which tend to

1883
01:41:17,680 --> 01:41:23,400
Speaker 11: tita into the reactionary directions, and the pronatalism today is

1884
01:41:23,600 --> 01:41:26,760
Speaker 11: very much political as a result. In the US, Republicans

1885
01:41:26,800 --> 01:41:29,760
Speaker 11: have been leaning into it, framing the low booth rates

1886
01:41:29,760 --> 01:41:33,240
Speaker 11: as a national crisis. And in Europe you have countries

1887
01:41:33,320 --> 01:41:37,120
Speaker 11: like Hungary under Victor Auburn which have made pronatalism a

1888
01:41:37,240 --> 01:41:41,840
Speaker 11: signature policy. It's very in effectiveness. The religious motivations of

1889
01:41:41,840 --> 01:41:44,360
Speaker 11: pronatalism are also pretty interesting. You know, you have the

1890
01:41:44,600 --> 01:41:49,479
Speaker 11: being fruitful and multiply directive in the Bible, which some

1891
01:41:49,680 --> 01:41:52,760
Speaker 11: take as far as the quiver full movement, which is

1892
01:41:52,760 --> 01:41:56,240
Speaker 11: the whole thing about having children by like the dozen

1893
01:41:56,320 --> 01:41:56,759
Speaker 11: no more.

1894
01:41:57,360 --> 01:41:58,120
Speaker 13: Yeah.

1895
01:41:58,200 --> 01:42:01,439
Speaker 11: Then you have the tech elite circles pronatalism because it

1896
01:42:01,479 --> 01:42:04,760
Speaker 11: connected with the ideas of human progress. One of the

1897
01:42:04,840 --> 01:42:10,240
Speaker 11: prontalists who most famously practices what he preaches mostly for

1898
01:42:10,360 --> 01:42:14,960
Speaker 11: worse is he on Musk. Yep, right, he's He's a

1899
01:42:14,960 --> 01:42:18,639
Speaker 11: big Nazi about it. For one, because of us, we'll

1900
01:42:18,640 --> 01:42:21,519
Speaker 11: worry about white facility rates but he also thinks that

1901
01:42:21,600 --> 01:42:24,360
Speaker 11: globoth rates as a whole or a bigger threat than

1902
01:42:24,439 --> 01:42:28,000
Speaker 11: climate change. So I mean it seems like he's single

1903
01:42:28,000 --> 01:42:32,960
Speaker 11: handedly trying to fix that with his seed is spreading. Yeah,

1904
01:42:33,920 --> 01:42:37,679
Speaker 11: is his assembly line of children with the accompanying product

1905
01:42:37,720 --> 01:42:41,599
Speaker 11: barcodes for names, And I just feel bad for them, honestly,

1906
01:42:42,240 --> 01:42:43,360
Speaker 11: to have that as a father.

1907
01:42:44,320 --> 01:42:47,400
Speaker 13: No, it sucks. Yeah, it's not great.

1908
01:42:47,560 --> 01:42:48,280
Speaker 7: It's not good.

1909
01:42:48,760 --> 01:42:51,519
Speaker 11: And so he and his billionairem bodies of the belief

1910
01:42:51,560 --> 01:42:54,599
Speaker 11: that civilization will collapse if we don't make more babies.

1911
01:42:55,360 --> 01:42:59,080
Speaker 11: Silicon Valley circles a fund in pronatalist think tanks and

1912
01:42:59,240 --> 01:43:04,200
Speaker 11: embryo optimization projects. A lot of policies are also coming

1913
01:43:04,240 --> 01:43:08,440
Speaker 11: out of the pronates list camp. Unlike the anti natalists historically,

1914
01:43:08,479 --> 01:43:11,080
Speaker 11: countries like the Soviet Union hand their off medals like

1915
01:43:11,200 --> 01:43:14,639
Speaker 11: Mother Heroine for women with large families, and the Russia

1916
01:43:14,640 --> 01:43:18,760
Speaker 11: of today has revived similar awards recently, alongside like I

1917
01:43:18,840 --> 01:43:23,680
Speaker 11: mentioned in the previous episode, banning anti natalist propaganda. Now

1918
01:43:23,680 --> 01:43:27,360
Speaker 11: some countries are offering tax incentives for booths and even

1919
01:43:27,479 --> 01:43:31,719
Speaker 11: proposing baby bonuses of thousands of dollars paid for each booth.

1920
01:43:32,200 --> 01:43:34,360
Speaker 11: Thousands of dollars per birth is kind of a spit

1921
01:43:34,479 --> 01:43:36,559
Speaker 11: in the face because that's not even going to last

1922
01:43:36,600 --> 01:43:40,320
Speaker 11: the first couple months of a child being born. Let's

1923
01:43:40,360 --> 01:43:42,960
Speaker 11: be real, children are extremely expensive.

1924
01:43:43,240 --> 01:43:44,320
Speaker 13: Yeah yeah.

1925
01:43:44,960 --> 01:43:48,840
Speaker 11: Proniceists also tend to push things like expanded family benefits,

1926
01:43:49,720 --> 01:43:53,200
Speaker 11: child allowances or holes and subsidies for pearents. These, I

1927
01:43:53,200 --> 01:43:56,559
Speaker 11: would say, are the more liberal minded or progressive minded

1928
01:43:56,600 --> 01:43:58,919
Speaker 11: pronac lists as much as you can be a progressive

1929
01:43:58,960 --> 01:44:02,920
Speaker 11: and a pronac list, because they actually considering the ways

1930
01:44:02,920 --> 01:44:06,880
Speaker 11: that they can make actually bearing children and raising children

1931
01:44:06,880 --> 01:44:08,840
Speaker 11: a bit easier for the people who have to do it.

1932
01:44:09,520 --> 01:44:14,000
Speaker 11: That sort of support also includes things like expanding IVF access,

1933
01:44:14,439 --> 01:44:18,960
Speaker 11: subsidized and fertility treatments, you know, improving embryo screening, that

1934
01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:23,160
Speaker 11: sort of thing. Places like Scandinavia also have generous leave policies,

1935
01:44:23,240 --> 01:44:26,200
Speaker 11: which are often cited as a model of soft pronatalism

1936
01:44:26,600 --> 01:44:29,200
Speaker 11: because it makes it easier for people to balance work

1937
01:44:29,400 --> 01:44:32,080
Speaker 11: and child. Are it. But you don't tend to hear

1938
01:44:32,120 --> 01:44:38,360
Speaker 11: these policies coming out of the much louder pronatalist conservative camp. Right,

1939
01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:40,960
Speaker 11: What do you get from them and from their pronatalism

1940
01:44:41,040 --> 01:44:44,559
Speaker 11: tends to be restrictions and women restrictions and abortion and

1941
01:44:44,600 --> 01:44:48,200
Speaker 11: body autonomy policies that conflict with the goals of reproductive

1942
01:44:48,320 --> 01:44:52,320
Speaker 11: justice and gender equality, sometimes putting women's health at risk.

1943
01:44:53,000 --> 01:44:57,400
Speaker 11: And also conservatives push lots of narrative with their pronatalism,

1944
01:44:57,520 --> 01:45:01,360
Speaker 11: large families, sense of valories. They frame childbearing as a

1945
01:45:01,439 --> 01:45:04,719
Speaker 11: civic duty. You know, they appeal to legacy and culture

1946
01:45:04,760 --> 01:45:08,559
Speaker 11: and identity when you get into that white supremacist camp,

1947
01:45:09,160 --> 01:45:12,000
Speaker 11: and you also get the whole eugenics of it, you know,

1948
01:45:12,040 --> 01:45:15,760
Speaker 11: the tech elite, praiselest wing. They're pushing for things like

1949
01:45:15,880 --> 01:45:20,360
Speaker 11: gene editing, embryo selection, and the sort of stuff that

1950
01:45:20,520 --> 01:45:24,800
Speaker 11: Musk is talking about with his racial replacement anxieties. In

1951
01:45:24,840 --> 01:45:28,840
Speaker 11: any case, the effectiveness of even the few positive policies

1952
01:45:29,360 --> 01:45:33,840
Speaker 11: has been pretty mixed. Countries have tried pumping billions into subsidies,

1953
01:45:33,920 --> 01:45:38,760
Speaker 11: and often fertility rates have barely budged deep structural issues

1954
01:45:39,479 --> 01:45:44,080
Speaker 11: like the cost of living, cultural norms around gender, career paths,

1955
01:45:44,680 --> 01:45:48,640
Speaker 11: health concerns. All these often ugwe the incentives of a

1956
01:45:48,640 --> 01:45:52,720
Speaker 11: couple of thousand dollars or extended opportunity leaves. You know,

1957
01:45:52,760 --> 01:45:55,799
Speaker 11: if people don't want to have babies, they're not gonna

1958
01:45:55,840 --> 01:45:58,559
Speaker 11: have babies. If they're not confident in their ability to

1959
01:45:58,600 --> 01:46:02,839
Speaker 11: have children raising environment that they feel is best for them,

1960
01:46:03,040 --> 01:46:05,880
Speaker 11: they're not going to have children. You know, people, more

1961
01:46:05,920 --> 01:46:10,880
Speaker 11: than ever have that choice. And unfortunately, a lot of

1962
01:46:10,960 --> 01:46:16,280
Speaker 11: the pronatalist policies don't care about making child bearing easier,

1963
01:46:16,800 --> 01:46:19,439
Speaker 11: you know, easing the path to make that choice. They

1964
01:46:19,479 --> 01:46:22,880
Speaker 11: just want to pressure people to have children. Yep, you know,

1965
01:46:23,040 --> 01:46:26,240
Speaker 11: the loose straight back to massogyny, a reaction against women's freedom,

1966
01:46:26,360 --> 01:46:29,240
Speaker 11: pushing them back into the kitchen, pushing them back into

1967
01:46:29,600 --> 01:46:34,800
Speaker 11: that subservient position in society. So, after looking at both sides, right,

1968
01:46:34,840 --> 01:46:38,439
Speaker 11: you have the anti natalists and the pronatalists. Don't create

1969
01:46:38,479 --> 01:46:41,200
Speaker 11: life to avoid suffering, or you must create life to

1970
01:46:41,240 --> 01:46:44,400
Speaker 11: preserve society. I guess you could call me a centrist.

1971
01:46:45,160 --> 01:46:51,559
Speaker 11: The anti natalists repulse me, and the pronatalists equally repulse me.

1972
01:46:52,040 --> 01:46:55,120
Speaker 11: You know, I'm wary of anyone claiming that you must

1973
01:46:55,160 --> 01:46:58,080
Speaker 11: have children or you must not have children. I'm weary

1974
01:46:58,120 --> 01:47:00,720
Speaker 11: of a world where these kinds of choices are coerced

1975
01:47:00,840 --> 01:47:03,759
Speaker 11: by others. You know, as an anarchist, I'm a firm

1976
01:47:03,760 --> 01:47:07,280
Speaker 11: believer in autronomy, in personal freedom and the ability to

1977
01:47:07,320 --> 01:47:11,080
Speaker 11: decide one's own life. That's what matters to me. You know,

1978
01:47:11,080 --> 01:47:13,800
Speaker 11: I don't intend to have children myself. I do like

1979
01:47:13,920 --> 01:47:16,519
Speaker 11: children a lot. I was once a child myself, and

1980
01:47:16,560 --> 01:47:18,960
Speaker 11: I look forward to being an uncle, a godfather and

1981
01:47:19,040 --> 01:47:22,040
Speaker 11: all that. But that's my choice. You know, Let your

1982
01:47:22,120 --> 01:47:24,320
Speaker 11: choice be your choice and my choice be my choice.

1983
01:47:24,680 --> 01:47:28,640
Speaker 11: Make choices freely, resist the pressure from either camp, and

1984
01:47:28,760 --> 01:47:31,720
Speaker 11: keep the agency intact. That's all I have to say

1985
01:47:31,720 --> 01:47:31,920
Speaker 11: on it.

1986
01:47:32,000 --> 01:47:34,280
Speaker 13: Honestly, Yeah, I mean honestly, that covers my stuff.

1987
01:47:34,280 --> 01:47:35,040
Speaker 5: I was gonna say so.

1988
01:47:36,000 --> 01:47:41,240
Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean with that if speaking rapid Yeah, all

1989
01:47:41,320 --> 01:47:43,840
Speaker 11: power to all the people. This has been It could

1990
01:47:43,840 --> 01:47:45,920
Speaker 11: happen here, Peace.

1991
01:47:59,400 --> 01:48:02,559
Speaker 22: Hello, and welcome back to it could happen here. I

1992
01:48:02,600 --> 01:48:06,240
Speaker 22: am your occasional host, Molly Conger, and today I have

1993
01:48:07,160 --> 01:48:10,000
Speaker 22: exactly the kind of story you probably expect when you

1994
01:48:10,080 --> 01:48:13,559
Speaker 22: hear my voice on this feed. A white nationalist has

1995
01:48:14,080 --> 01:48:16,439
Speaker 22: gone and done something we all wish that he was

1996
01:48:16,479 --> 01:48:20,519
Speaker 22: not doing. If you listen to my show Weird Little Guys,

1997
01:48:21,120 --> 01:48:23,719
Speaker 22: you already know a little bit about this particular guy.

1998
01:48:24,680 --> 01:48:28,120
Speaker 22: On that show, I talk about white nationalists, neo Nazis,

1999
01:48:28,240 --> 01:48:33,479
Speaker 22: right wing extremists, aspiring terrorists, things of that nature. My

2000
01:48:33,560 --> 01:48:37,200
Speaker 22: domain is mostly guys you've never heard of because they

2001
01:48:37,320 --> 01:48:40,080
Speaker 22: failed to live up to their goal of becoming the

2002
01:48:40,080 --> 01:48:44,479
Speaker 22: next Hitler or whatever. It's funnier than it sounds, I swear,

2003
01:48:45,320 --> 01:48:49,400
Speaker 22: But unfortunately for all of us, sometimes one of those

2004
01:48:49,439 --> 01:48:54,360
Speaker 22: guys breaches containment. The guy we're talking about today wants

2005
01:48:54,400 --> 01:48:56,880
Speaker 22: to be more than just one of the weird little

2006
01:48:56,880 --> 01:48:59,000
Speaker 22: guys trying to make a name for himself on the

2007
01:48:59,040 --> 01:49:02,640
Speaker 22: fringes of the white nationalist movement. He wants to be

2008
01:49:02,680 --> 01:49:09,040
Speaker 22: a congressman. He's trying to make himself everybody's problem, and

2009
01:49:09,080 --> 01:49:14,599
Speaker 22: that makes him part of what is happening here. Back

2010
01:49:14,640 --> 01:49:18,200
Speaker 22: in August, Representative Nancy Mace announced that she wouldn't seek

2011
01:49:18,240 --> 01:49:22,320
Speaker 22: re election in South Carolina's first congressional district and she

2012
01:49:22,360 --> 01:49:26,040
Speaker 22: would instead focus on making a run for governor. And

2013
01:49:26,080 --> 01:49:30,479
Speaker 22: that announcement opened the floodgates. All but one of the

2014
01:49:30,520 --> 01:49:34,360
Speaker 22: ten Republicans vying for the nomination to replace her filed

2015
01:49:34,400 --> 01:49:38,760
Speaker 22: their paperwork after the announcement. I don't pay a ton

2016
01:49:38,800 --> 01:49:41,200
Speaker 22: of attention to this sort of thing. It's not really

2017
01:49:41,240 --> 01:49:45,320
Speaker 22: my wheelhouse. But last month a man named Tyler Dikes

2018
01:49:45,880 --> 01:49:49,600
Speaker 22: joined the race, filing paperwork as a congressional candidate in

2019
01:49:49,680 --> 01:49:54,520
Speaker 22: Mace's district. Now, like I said, it's a crowded field.

2020
01:49:54,880 --> 01:49:58,200
Speaker 22: There are ten people in this primary, and it's Nancy

2021
01:49:58,240 --> 01:50:01,720
Speaker 22: Mace's district, So being a little bit of a conspiracy

2022
01:50:01,760 --> 01:50:05,880
Speaker 22: theorist with an extremely right wing policy platform doesn't really

2023
01:50:05,920 --> 01:50:11,000
Speaker 22: set you apart. They all kind of blend together most years.

2024
01:50:11,360 --> 01:50:13,960
Speaker 22: I probably couldn't tell you a whole lot about every

2025
01:50:13,960 --> 01:50:17,800
Speaker 22: primary candidate in my own district, let alone won two

2026
01:50:17,800 --> 01:50:22,879
Speaker 22: states away. So on the surface, he's just another carbon

2027
01:50:23,000 --> 01:50:26,960
Speaker 22: copy America first zelot trying to fit this particular mold.

2028
01:50:27,680 --> 01:50:31,519
Speaker 22: He's created an image for his campaign that's not unlike

2029
01:50:31,840 --> 01:50:35,880
Speaker 22: Nancy Mace's, and I guess that makes sense, right. These

2030
01:50:35,920 --> 01:50:39,040
Speaker 22: people voted for her, so maybe that's what works here.

2031
01:50:40,160 --> 01:50:44,719
Speaker 22: Tyler Diykes's campaign website is pretty similar to Nancy Mace's.

2032
01:50:45,640 --> 01:50:50,639
Speaker 22: They both emphasize their personal connection to military service. Nancy

2033
01:50:50,640 --> 01:50:54,559
Speaker 22: Mace graduated from the Citadel Military College and Tyler Diykes

2034
01:50:54,560 --> 01:50:57,439
Speaker 22: features photos of himself and his Marine Corps dress blues.

2035
01:50:58,240 --> 01:51:02,599
Speaker 22: They both describe themselves as entrepreneurs and business owners, and

2036
01:51:03,360 --> 01:51:07,640
Speaker 22: they both hate immigrants so much that their lust for

2037
01:51:07,800 --> 01:51:12,519
Speaker 22: mass deportation isn't even confined only to the pages devoted

2038
01:51:12,520 --> 01:51:16,400
Speaker 22: to their position on the issue. It's in their candidate biographies,

2039
01:51:17,360 --> 01:51:20,400
Speaker 22: and they frame themselves as fighters. There's a lot of

2040
01:51:21,040 --> 01:51:25,200
Speaker 22: fight based language, fighting for America, fighting for Christ, and

2041
01:51:25,240 --> 01:51:29,120
Speaker 22: they both really position their devotion to God as something

2042
01:51:29,160 --> 01:51:33,320
Speaker 22: they have to fight for and fight against the christ

2043
01:51:33,479 --> 01:51:37,559
Speaker 22: hating whardes on the left to keep like this is

2044
01:51:37,600 --> 01:51:42,200
Speaker 22: something someone's trying to take from them. Their platforms are

2045
01:51:42,240 --> 01:51:47,920
Speaker 22: pretty similar to America First, South Carolina first, law and order,

2046
01:51:48,080 --> 01:51:52,160
Speaker 22: tough on crime, deport millions of people. Nancy Mace is

2047
01:51:52,200 --> 01:51:55,599
Speaker 22: running for governor on eliminating the state income tax and

2048
01:51:56,240 --> 01:51:58,639
Speaker 22: if he gets to Congress, Tyler Diyke says he wants

2049
01:51:58,680 --> 01:52:02,479
Speaker 22: to slash taxes two but of the five main policy

2050
01:52:02,520 --> 01:52:05,960
Speaker 22: ideas on his congressional campaign website, the one that's about

2051
01:52:06,200 --> 01:52:09,320
Speaker 22: taxes the tax that he will cut as a congressman.

2052
01:52:09,840 --> 01:52:15,280
Speaker 22: He wrote that he will end property taxes. Now, regardless

2053
01:52:15,280 --> 01:52:18,960
Speaker 22: of how you feel about property taxes, those are imposed

2054
01:52:19,000 --> 01:52:22,679
Speaker 22: by your state and local government. The federal government doesn't

2055
01:52:22,760 --> 01:52:26,600
Speaker 22: tax your property. So I guess he's got that Republican

2056
01:52:26,920 --> 01:52:32,040
Speaker 22: tax cut spirit. But he's a little confused, but overall

2057
01:52:33,040 --> 01:52:37,080
Speaker 22: just another far right America First candidate trying to elbow

2058
01:52:37,120 --> 01:52:41,160
Speaker 22: his way into this attention economy. It's distasteful, it's bigoted,

2059
01:52:41,200 --> 01:52:47,400
Speaker 22: it's chrysto fascist, enophobic, poorly articulated, economically unsound, but it's

2060
01:52:47,400 --> 01:52:52,479
Speaker 22: not unique or interesting. These guys are a dime a dozen,

2061
01:52:52,600 --> 01:52:55,280
Speaker 22: and they'll mostly be gone by the time the primaries end.

2062
01:52:55,960 --> 01:53:01,439
Speaker 22: But there is one really weird thing about Tyler's campaign messaging.

2063
01:53:02,360 --> 01:53:07,360
Speaker 22: He keeps bringing up that he's not a Nazi. He

2064
01:53:07,400 --> 01:53:11,120
Speaker 22: wants you to know that no one's asking him this.

2065
01:53:11,479 --> 01:53:15,799
Speaker 22: He's bringing it up preemptively. I am not a Nazi.

2066
01:53:15,880 --> 01:53:18,160
Speaker 22: Letters that he mailed to the homes of hundreds of

2067
01:53:18,240 --> 01:53:22,080
Speaker 22: voters in his district are starting to raise questions he

2068
01:53:22,120 --> 01:53:23,960
Speaker 22: thinks are already answered in those letters.

2069
01:53:24,360 --> 01:53:25,000
Speaker 11: And here's the thing.

2070
01:53:25,040 --> 01:53:26,760
Speaker 5: They still call me a Nazi to this lick.

2071
01:53:26,920 --> 01:53:31,000
Speaker 21: They still random me is all these evil, horrific things.

2072
01:53:31,479 --> 01:53:34,519
Speaker 21: But let me tell you this what makes me a Nazi.

2073
01:53:35,439 --> 01:53:39,519
Speaker 21: I love Christ, I love God. I love my country.

2074
01:53:39,840 --> 01:53:42,960
Speaker 21: I love my state, my family, and my community and

2075
01:53:43,040 --> 01:53:45,479
Speaker 21: the entirety of the Low Country area. And that's why

2076
01:53:45,520 --> 01:53:46,440
Speaker 21: I live here.

2077
01:53:46,200 --> 01:53:47,519
Speaker 14: Because I love you so much.

2078
01:53:49,000 --> 01:53:51,640
Speaker 21: So does that make me a Nazi? Does love in

2079
01:53:51,720 --> 01:53:55,400
Speaker 21: your family? Does loving God? Does love in your country?

2080
01:53:55,439 --> 01:54:00,439
Speaker 21: Does that make you a Nazi? That makes you a nazi? Sophet?

2081
01:54:00,800 --> 01:54:05,639
Speaker 22: Oh, wow, he's just another tragic victim of cancel culture.

2082
01:54:06,240 --> 01:54:09,400
Speaker 22: He's being attacked by the woke mobs who hate good

2083
01:54:09,479 --> 01:54:12,519
Speaker 22: Christian men and that's why they're calling him nazi.

2084
01:54:13,280 --> 01:54:13,479
Speaker 4: Right?

2085
01:54:14,360 --> 01:54:17,680
Speaker 22: Is there another reason that this keeps coming up? Or

2086
01:54:17,720 --> 01:54:20,360
Speaker 22: is it just because he loves his family so much?

2087
01:54:21,160 --> 01:54:22,040
Speaker 13: So it's quite interesting.

2088
01:54:22,080 --> 01:54:24,519
Speaker 5: You know, my experience is anily six.

2089
01:54:24,600 --> 01:54:27,839
Speaker 23: For example, my brand is the neo Nazi domestic terrorists

2090
01:54:28,040 --> 01:54:28,839
Speaker 23: because hwave.

2091
01:54:29,920 --> 01:54:34,280
Speaker 22: Oh, it's not just because he loves his family. It's

2092
01:54:34,280 --> 01:54:38,240
Speaker 22: because he's a peaceful, patriotic supporter of Donald Trump who

2093
01:54:38,800 --> 01:54:41,560
Speaker 22: visited the Capitol Building and the communists who run the

2094
01:54:41,600 --> 01:54:46,400
Speaker 22: mainstream media are unfairly showing a photograph of him where

2095
01:54:46,400 --> 01:54:49,240
Speaker 22: he was simply waving hello to a friend. And that's

2096
01:54:49,240 --> 01:54:52,160
Speaker 22: why they're calling him nazi because he loves America too

2097
01:54:52,240 --> 01:54:54,960
Speaker 22: much and he waved Helloa to a friend while on

2098
01:54:55,000 --> 01:54:58,600
Speaker 22: a sightseeing trip to the Capitol Building. It probably won't

2099
01:54:58,600 --> 01:55:02,360
Speaker 22: surprise you to know that that is not the whole story.

2100
01:55:03,520 --> 01:55:07,640
Speaker 22: He's getting closer. It's definitely a little bit more about

2101
01:55:07,760 --> 01:55:10,640
Speaker 22: what specifically he was doing with his right arm at

2102
01:55:10,640 --> 01:55:12,920
Speaker 22: the top of the east stairs of the Capitol Building

2103
01:55:12,920 --> 01:55:15,600
Speaker 22: a little after two pm on January sixth, twenty twenty one.

2104
01:55:16,160 --> 01:55:19,440
Speaker 22: It's more about that than it is about his love

2105
01:55:19,480 --> 01:55:22,400
Speaker 22: of his family. He's getting warmer.

2106
01:55:34,280 --> 01:55:34,680
Speaker 6: See.

2107
01:55:35,120 --> 01:55:37,920
Speaker 22: The reason he keeps bringing up that he doesn't want

2108
01:55:37,920 --> 01:55:42,840
Speaker 22: to be called a Nazi is because there are Nazi allegations.

2109
01:55:43,880 --> 01:55:47,760
Speaker 22: But these allegations aren't just lies from the evil left

2110
01:55:47,760 --> 01:55:51,280
Speaker 22: wing media. It's something he's been asked about by the

2111
01:55:51,360 --> 01:55:57,320
Speaker 22: FBI and by the DOJ, and the Marine Corps and

2112
01:55:57,520 --> 01:56:02,560
Speaker 22: police in multiple jurisdictions across several states. A lot of

2113
01:56:02,600 --> 01:56:06,720
Speaker 22: people are asking him about the Nazi thing, So it

2114
01:56:06,800 --> 01:56:08,640
Speaker 22: makes sense that he'd want to get out ahead of

2115
01:56:08,680 --> 01:56:11,720
Speaker 22: it and assure the voters that there's a good explanation

2116
01:56:12,720 --> 01:56:16,000
Speaker 22: when he brings up that innocent wave that's being taken

2117
01:56:16,000 --> 01:56:18,960
Speaker 22: out of context to smear him as a Nazi. He's

2118
01:56:19,000 --> 01:56:23,560
Speaker 22: talking about a photograph, a particular photograph and one of

2119
01:56:23,640 --> 01:56:27,760
Speaker 22: many that federal prosecutors included in their sentencing memorandum. After

2120
01:56:27,840 --> 01:56:31,440
Speaker 22: Tyler Dykes accepted a plea agreement in federal court. He

2121
01:56:31,520 --> 01:56:35,160
Speaker 22: pleaded guilty to two counts of assaulting an officer during

2122
01:56:35,160 --> 01:56:37,760
Speaker 22: the breach of the Capitol on January sixth, twenty twenty one.

2123
01:56:38,640 --> 01:56:41,920
Speaker 22: In exchange for his cooperation, the government dropped the other

2124
01:56:42,080 --> 01:56:46,920
Speaker 22: eight counts on the indictment. So in that sentencing memorandum,

2125
01:56:47,080 --> 01:56:50,360
Speaker 22: there's a picture. It's a still frame that was taken

2126
01:56:50,360 --> 01:56:53,720
Speaker 22: from a video, but obviously you can't put a video

2127
01:56:53,960 --> 01:56:57,320
Speaker 22: on paper, so it's just a still frame, and it

2128
01:56:57,400 --> 01:57:00,040
Speaker 22: shows a mass of people making their way up the

2129
01:56:59,880 --> 01:57:02,640
Speaker 22: east steps of the Capitol Building on the afternoon of

2130
01:57:02,720 --> 01:57:06,280
Speaker 22: January sixth. Whoever's taking the video was standing at the

2131
01:57:06,280 --> 01:57:09,680
Speaker 22: bottom of the stairs, so you're just seeing the backs

2132
01:57:09,840 --> 01:57:11,840
Speaker 22: of the people in this crowd who are walking up

2133
01:57:11,920 --> 01:57:15,600
Speaker 22: the stairs, except for the figure in the center. In

2134
01:57:15,680 --> 01:57:18,320
Speaker 22: the center of the picture, at the top of the stairs,

2135
01:57:19,280 --> 01:57:21,880
Speaker 22: a very tall man in a black jacket and a

2136
01:57:21,920 --> 01:57:26,320
Speaker 22: gray mask has turned around so he's facing the plaza below,

2137
01:57:27,000 --> 01:57:30,720
Speaker 22: and he's sort of squared up facing down the stairs,

2138
01:57:31,480 --> 01:57:35,240
Speaker 22: and his right arm is completely extended at about a

2139
01:57:35,280 --> 01:57:41,240
Speaker 22: forty five degree angle elbow straight wrists, straight, fingers together.

2140
01:57:42,600 --> 01:57:47,200
Speaker 22: The government's caption reads still from video showing Dikes performing

2141
01:57:47,200 --> 01:57:49,680
Speaker 22: what appears to be the see Kyle's salute after he

2142
01:57:49,760 --> 01:57:52,360
Speaker 22: arrives on the landing in front of the East Rotunda doors.

2143
01:57:53,680 --> 01:57:57,680
Speaker 22: He maintains that he was waving to a friend. For

2144
01:57:57,760 --> 01:58:01,200
Speaker 22: what it's worth, I've seen a lot of these waves,

2145
01:58:01,960 --> 01:58:04,440
Speaker 22: and I know what it looks like to me, and

2146
01:58:04,960 --> 01:58:08,560
Speaker 22: regardless of what it looks like to you in this photograph,

2147
01:58:08,880 --> 01:58:11,320
Speaker 22: I have a video of him doing the exact same

2148
01:58:12,000 --> 01:58:15,960
Speaker 22: wave at a Nazi rally, so it's not just a picture.

2149
01:58:17,120 --> 01:58:19,840
Speaker 22: He only served three of the fifty seven months he

2150
01:58:19,920 --> 01:58:22,640
Speaker 22: was sentenced to spend in prison before he was released

2151
01:58:22,920 --> 01:58:25,360
Speaker 22: in January of twenty twenty five as a result of

2152
01:58:25,400 --> 01:58:29,840
Speaker 22: Trump's blanket pardons for the nearly sixteen hundred January sixth defendants.

2153
01:58:30,560 --> 01:58:33,880
Speaker 22: But that's not the issue here. He's not ashamed of

2154
01:58:33,920 --> 01:58:37,400
Speaker 22: being a January sixth defendant. That's a badge of honor.

2155
01:58:37,640 --> 01:58:41,920
Speaker 22: That's not a problem. If he can spin this Nazi

2156
01:58:41,960 --> 01:58:46,240
Speaker 22: thing into a story that reinforces this narrative of brave

2157
01:58:46,440 --> 01:58:50,720
Speaker 22: January sixth patriots who are being persecuted by communists and

2158
01:58:50,920 --> 01:58:54,920
Speaker 22: liberals and the woke mob, it stops being a problem

2159
01:58:55,400 --> 01:58:58,640
Speaker 22: for the people whose attention and votes and donations he wants.

2160
01:59:00,600 --> 01:59:03,520
Speaker 22: His story is pretty simple. All the people calling him

2161
01:59:03,520 --> 01:59:06,960
Speaker 22: a Nazi are lying. They're taking a single photograph out

2162
01:59:07,000 --> 01:59:10,280
Speaker 22: of context. It's not a Nazi salute, it's a wave.

2163
01:59:11,560 --> 01:59:15,400
Speaker 22: And all of this, all of this Nazi talk, it's

2164
01:59:15,440 --> 01:59:18,040
Speaker 22: all just about this one single incident, this one picture,

2165
01:59:18,080 --> 01:59:22,640
Speaker 22: this one wave, and the government, the government is preventing

2166
01:59:22,720 --> 01:59:23,560
Speaker 22: him from proving that.

2167
01:59:23,520 --> 01:59:26,760
Speaker 23: To you, and then the honorable judge that I had

2168
01:59:27,120 --> 01:59:29,240
Speaker 23: denied me being able to get that evidence and being

2169
01:59:29,240 --> 01:59:31,840
Speaker 23: able to show that people, and so a lot of

2170
01:59:31,840 --> 01:59:34,120
Speaker 23: these people, unfortunately, because of a lot of the news

2171
01:59:34,160 --> 01:59:36,520
Speaker 23: media and because of the outforts of the Biden administration,

2172
01:59:36,560 --> 01:59:38,280
Speaker 23: they see me as an enemy and as a terrorist.

2173
01:59:39,160 --> 01:59:42,480
Speaker 22: That's Tyler Dyke's in mid October of this year telling

2174
01:59:42,560 --> 01:59:45,839
Speaker 22: a local TV news crew in Hiltonhead that the media

2175
01:59:45,960 --> 01:59:49,120
Speaker 22: is complicit in spreading these lies the government told about

2176
01:59:49,160 --> 01:59:52,280
Speaker 22: him in court. When he was interviewed last month by

2177
01:59:52,280 --> 01:59:55,960
Speaker 22: a conspiracy theorist and right wing podcaster named Anne Vandersteele,

2178
01:59:56,440 --> 01:59:59,760
Speaker 22: she was on his side, She was earnest, and she

2179
01:59:59,800 --> 02:00:02,520
Speaker 22: won to get to the bottom of this. He told

2180
02:00:02,520 --> 02:00:05,480
Speaker 22: her that the government's entire case was lie after lie,

2181
02:00:05,520 --> 02:00:07,480
Speaker 22: and there's proof that he never did any of those

2182
02:00:07,520 --> 02:00:10,920
Speaker 22: things on January sixth. And she's excited to hear this,

2183
02:00:11,560 --> 02:00:14,480
Speaker 22: and she wants to see these videos because she would

2184
02:00:14,480 --> 02:00:17,640
Speaker 22: love to see proof that the government is persecuting our

2185
02:00:17,720 --> 02:00:22,440
Speaker 22: brave January sixth patriots. But there's one little problem.

2186
02:00:22,840 --> 02:00:24,480
Speaker 5: Well, you know, that's a very funny thing.

2187
02:00:24,720 --> 02:00:27,760
Speaker 10: The honorable judge in my case actually put out a

2188
02:00:27,840 --> 02:00:30,960
Speaker 10: gaggle order banning me from being able to have any

2189
02:00:31,000 --> 02:00:33,080
Speaker 10: of the discovery evidence for me to be able to

2190
02:00:33,080 --> 02:00:37,360
Speaker 10: defend myself from the force that is in the dockets.

2191
02:00:38,200 --> 02:00:42,360
Speaker 22: Oh, it's in the dockets. It's in the dockets. Phenomenal.

2192
02:00:42,880 --> 02:00:44,400
Speaker 22: I can look at the dockets. We can look at

2193
02:00:44,400 --> 02:00:47,880
Speaker 22: that together. That's easy. And I do see here that

2194
02:00:48,240 --> 02:00:51,800
Speaker 22: there is a protective order filed in this case. Shortly

2195
02:00:51,840 --> 02:00:55,200
Speaker 22: after he was first arrested, the judge entered an order

2196
02:00:55,280 --> 02:00:59,680
Speaker 22: prohibiting the public dissemination of certain discovery materials. If you

2197
02:00:59,680 --> 02:01:02,680
Speaker 22: look at enough J six cases, this kind of protective

2198
02:01:02,800 --> 02:01:07,000
Speaker 22: order was almost universal. The government didn't want to publicly

2199
02:01:07,040 --> 02:01:11,600
Speaker 22: release stuff like the names of confidential informants, security footage

2200
02:01:11,600 --> 02:01:15,960
Speaker 22: from inside certain secure government areas, personal information about witnesses,

2201
02:01:17,040 --> 02:01:19,480
Speaker 22: just a laundry list of kinds of evidence that was

2202
02:01:20,000 --> 02:01:24,240
Speaker 22: likely to be produced in these cases that would be sensitive.

2203
02:01:25,080 --> 02:01:27,120
Speaker 22: So they're not saying they can't turn it over to

2204
02:01:27,160 --> 02:01:31,600
Speaker 22: the defense in discovery. They're just saying this stays between us, right,

2205
02:01:31,680 --> 02:01:34,600
Speaker 22: This doesn't get released to the public. This was normal

2206
02:01:35,200 --> 02:01:38,680
Speaker 22: and it was routine, and it was agreed to by

2207
02:01:38,760 --> 02:01:43,720
Speaker 22: everyone involved. The defense council agreed to this. So okay,

2208
02:01:43,840 --> 02:01:46,040
Speaker 22: off to a good start. I do see a protective

2209
02:01:46,120 --> 02:01:49,640
Speaker 22: order on the docket. But if you skip down a

2210
02:01:49,760 --> 02:01:51,920
Speaker 22: year down to the bottom of the docket, to the

2211
02:01:52,040 --> 02:01:55,480
Speaker 22: end of the case. After the guilty plea, the government

2212
02:01:55,520 --> 02:01:58,880
Speaker 22: filed their exhibit list for the sentencing hearing, and in

2213
02:01:58,920 --> 02:02:03,440
Speaker 22: that document, the federal prosecutor wrote, the government does not

2214
02:02:03,520 --> 02:02:07,400
Speaker 22: object to any photo or video evidence being released.

2215
02:02:07,040 --> 02:02:07,600
Speaker 8: To the public.

2216
02:02:08,600 --> 02:02:10,840
Speaker 22: So of the exhibits they planned to show in court

2217
02:02:10,880 --> 02:02:15,040
Speaker 22: at sentencing, they said, it's okay if everyone sees these,

2218
02:02:15,240 --> 02:02:17,840
Speaker 22: the media can have these. And so the judge in

2219
02:02:17,840 --> 02:02:22,200
Speaker 22: turn asked defense counsel how they felt about that, and

2220
02:02:22,240 --> 02:02:26,920
Speaker 22: the defense replied, defendant Tyler Bradley Dyke's by and through

2221
02:02:26,920 --> 02:02:30,320
Speaker 22: his attorneys, does not object to the video and photo

2222
02:02:30,360 --> 02:02:33,640
Speaker 22: evidence identified and the government's noticed ECF number forty four

2223
02:02:34,280 --> 02:02:39,839
Speaker 22: being made publicly available. Defendant does subject to any public

2224
02:02:39,880 --> 02:02:44,320
Speaker 22: disclosure of his military records identified in Exhibit nineteen, and

2225
02:02:44,360 --> 02:02:47,160
Speaker 22: so the judge signed an order the exhibits that the

2226
02:02:47,200 --> 02:02:51,240
Speaker 22: government identified for the sentencing hearing, which the file names

2227
02:02:51,240 --> 02:02:54,800
Speaker 22: are in that document. It includes the video of the wave,

2228
02:02:55,320 --> 02:02:58,880
Speaker 22: the video of him grabbing the policeman's shield, the things

2229
02:02:58,920 --> 02:03:02,200
Speaker 22: he's saying he can't get yet. Based on the file names,

2230
02:03:03,080 --> 02:03:07,000
Speaker 22: those videos can absolutely be requested from the court. These

2231
02:03:07,040 --> 02:03:10,360
Speaker 22: aren't under seal. There's not a gag order. He can

2232
02:03:10,400 --> 02:03:14,000
Speaker 22: request these, and I think he should do that. There

2233
02:03:14,040 --> 02:03:16,000
Speaker 22: are a lot of videos on that exhibit list, and

2234
02:03:16,520 --> 02:03:19,800
Speaker 22: I'm sure people would like to decide for themselves if

2235
02:03:19,840 --> 02:03:34,400
Speaker 22: he's describing them faithfully. The only exhibit on that list

2236
02:03:34,800 --> 02:03:38,240
Speaker 22: for the defense objected to making publicly available, the only

2237
02:03:38,320 --> 02:03:41,919
Speaker 22: one that remains sealed and isn't available for public access,

2238
02:03:42,560 --> 02:03:48,600
Speaker 22: are his military records. Those military records are specifically the

2239
02:03:48,680 --> 02:03:52,520
Speaker 22: ones related to the other than honorable discharge he received

2240
02:03:52,680 --> 02:03:56,880
Speaker 22: from the Marines. See those campaign flyers, the ones he

2241
02:03:56,920 --> 02:04:00,120
Speaker 22: was mailing to people's houses. They're all signed at the

2242
02:04:00,120 --> 02:04:05,360
Speaker 22: bottom Tyler Dykes, US Marine Corps veteran business owner, pardoned

2243
02:04:05,480 --> 02:04:09,760
Speaker 22: J six's patriot On November tenth, the Marine Corps birthday.

2244
02:04:10,360 --> 02:04:12,760
Speaker 22: He posted a photo of himself in his dress blues

2245
02:04:12,840 --> 02:04:16,480
Speaker 22: on the campaign's Instagram account. Being a Marine Corps veteran

2246
02:04:16,600 --> 02:04:19,960
Speaker 22: is as big a part of his campaign identity as

2247
02:04:20,400 --> 02:04:23,160
Speaker 22: talking about how he's not a Nazi. These are kind

2248
02:04:23,160 --> 02:04:26,920
Speaker 22: of the top two things. He's a Marine, and he

2249
02:04:26,960 --> 02:04:30,840
Speaker 22: really wants you to know that Nazi stuff isn't true.

2250
02:04:30,960 --> 02:04:34,800
Speaker 22: And he was a Marine. That's true. He definitely was

2251
02:04:35,160 --> 02:04:38,760
Speaker 22: in the Marine Corps. But those military records that he

2252
02:04:38,800 --> 02:04:43,720
Speaker 22: doesn't want released would really undermine his narrative about being

2253
02:04:43,760 --> 02:04:48,840
Speaker 22: a proud, honorable veteran who definitely isn't a Nazi, because

2254
02:04:48,880 --> 02:04:51,960
Speaker 22: they would show that he received an other than honorable

2255
02:04:52,000 --> 02:04:57,960
Speaker 22: discharge for participating in prohibited extremist activity on November eighth,

2256
02:04:58,040 --> 02:05:02,280
Speaker 22: twenty twenty. And that's in the file. I know that

2257
02:05:02,360 --> 02:05:06,640
Speaker 22: specifically is in that sealed file because in other documents

2258
02:05:06,640 --> 02:05:10,520
Speaker 22: that refer to it, that's all it says. I don't

2259
02:05:10,520 --> 02:05:12,680
Speaker 22: know what else is in that record. All I know

2260
02:05:12,760 --> 02:05:16,480
Speaker 22: for sure is that the stated reason for his other

2261
02:05:16,560 --> 02:05:20,920
Speaker 22: than honorable discharge is something that happened on November eighth,

2262
02:05:21,360 --> 02:05:25,920
Speaker 22: twenty twenty. Now, luckily for us, I know that on

2263
02:05:25,960 --> 02:05:30,000
Speaker 22: November eighth, twenty twenty, a security camera in Sumter County,

2264
02:05:30,000 --> 02:05:34,480
Speaker 22: South Carolina recorded footage of two men. One of the

2265
02:05:34,520 --> 02:05:38,160
Speaker 22: men looked exactly like Tyler Diykes. Even his father had

2266
02:05:38,200 --> 02:05:41,480
Speaker 22: to agree it kind of did. And the men were

2267
02:05:41,480 --> 02:05:45,080
Speaker 22: putting up flyers with swastikas on them outside local businesses.

2268
02:05:46,440 --> 02:05:50,800
Speaker 22: I don't know if his military discharge records include anything else.

2269
02:05:52,080 --> 02:05:55,000
Speaker 22: Was it really just the flyers, just the one time

2270
02:05:55,040 --> 02:05:58,360
Speaker 22: with the swastika flyers and that was it. I don't

2271
02:05:58,360 --> 02:06:01,680
Speaker 22: know if the military was a where that he'd been

2272
02:06:01,720 --> 02:06:05,760
Speaker 22: attending things like a paramilitary training weekend at a compound

2273
02:06:05,760 --> 02:06:08,560
Speaker 22: in Michigan hosted by members of the neo Nazi group

2274
02:06:08,640 --> 02:06:11,760
Speaker 22: the Base. I don't know if there's a memo in

2275
02:06:11,840 --> 02:06:14,480
Speaker 22: there about the time in January of twenty nineteen that

2276
02:06:14,560 --> 02:06:17,839
Speaker 22: an FBI agent from the Joint Terrorism Task Force questioned

2277
02:06:17,920 --> 02:06:22,960
Speaker 22: him about his possible connections to domestic extremist groups. I

2278
02:06:23,000 --> 02:06:25,880
Speaker 22: don't know if the Marine Corps knew that he was

2279
02:06:25,920 --> 02:06:29,800
Speaker 22: one of just a handful of white nationalists who attended

2280
02:06:29,840 --> 02:06:33,160
Speaker 22: the Unite the Right to the flop of a Nazi

2281
02:06:33,280 --> 02:06:36,720
Speaker 22: rally held in Washington, d C. In twenty eighteen to

2282
02:06:36,760 --> 02:06:39,600
Speaker 22: commemorate the deadly rally that had happened a year earlier,

2283
02:06:40,440 --> 02:06:43,040
Speaker 22: and along that same line of thought. I don't know

2284
02:06:43,120 --> 02:06:46,160
Speaker 22: if the Marine Corps knew back then the Tyler Dykes

2285
02:06:46,160 --> 02:06:48,360
Speaker 22: had attended the Unite the Right rally in Charlesville in

2286
02:06:48,360 --> 02:06:51,960
Speaker 22: twenty seventeen. I don't know if they saw the videos

2287
02:06:52,000 --> 02:06:54,480
Speaker 22: of him marching with a tiki torch or the videos

2288
02:06:54,480 --> 02:06:57,560
Speaker 22: of him punching wildly at counter protesters that he'd helped

2289
02:06:57,640 --> 02:07:01,560
Speaker 22: trap in that sea of flames. And with the exception

2290
02:07:01,640 --> 02:07:04,440
Speaker 22: of the United the Right rally in twenty seventeen, which

2291
02:07:04,560 --> 02:07:08,120
Speaker 22: was before he enlisted, all of the rest of that

2292
02:07:08,280 --> 02:07:13,400
Speaker 22: conduct occurred while Tyler Dykes was a Marine. He went

2293
02:07:13,440 --> 02:07:17,080
Speaker 22: to Nazi rallies, he joined Nazi groups, he put up

2294
02:07:17,160 --> 02:07:19,880
Speaker 22: Nazi flyers, he went to Nazi training camps to prepare

2295
02:07:19,920 --> 02:07:22,200
Speaker 22: for the race war, and he fought his way into

2296
02:07:22,240 --> 02:07:28,000
Speaker 22: the Capitol Building on January sixth. So, okay, yeah, he

2297
02:07:28,040 --> 02:07:31,120
Speaker 22: was a United States Marine. He can post that picture

2298
02:07:31,120 --> 02:07:33,480
Speaker 22: in his uniform on his campaign website. I don't care

2299
02:07:34,440 --> 02:07:37,640
Speaker 22: I'm not personally offended about him being a stain on

2300
02:07:37,680 --> 02:07:41,360
Speaker 22: the honor of the US military or whatever, but I

2301
02:07:41,400 --> 02:07:44,640
Speaker 22: think a lot of voters would feel like this isn't

2302
02:07:44,680 --> 02:07:48,720
Speaker 22: quite honest. By the time Tyler Dykes was arrested in

2303
02:07:48,720 --> 02:07:51,960
Speaker 22: twenty twenty three and extradited back to Virginia to face

2304
02:07:52,080 --> 02:07:55,320
Speaker 22: charges for menacing those counter protesters with a lit torch,

2305
02:07:55,920 --> 02:07:58,840
Speaker 22: he'd already been kicked out of the Marines. He had

2306
02:07:58,880 --> 02:08:02,480
Speaker 22: apparently hidden that from his parents, and there was a

2307
02:08:02,520 --> 02:08:05,280
Speaker 22: lot they didn't know about their son. The day he

2308
02:08:05,320 --> 02:08:08,160
Speaker 22: was arrested in twenty twenty three, he'd been out with

2309
02:08:08,240 --> 02:08:11,360
Speaker 22: other members of a group called the Southern Son's Active Club,

2310
02:08:12,200 --> 02:08:16,000
Speaker 22: a sort of white supremacist fight club for friendless young men.

2311
02:08:16,880 --> 02:08:20,080
Speaker 22: They were trying to hang Nazi banners from a highway overpass,

2312
02:08:20,240 --> 02:08:22,800
Speaker 22: but Tyler Dykes was bitten by a dog and had

2313
02:08:22,840 --> 02:08:26,360
Speaker 22: to go to the hospital instead. He eventually pleaded guilty

2314
02:08:26,400 --> 02:08:29,520
Speaker 22: to that felony charge in Almarle County, Virginia, related to

2315
02:08:29,560 --> 02:08:32,080
Speaker 22: the torch march, and he spent a few months in

2316
02:08:32,120 --> 02:08:35,040
Speaker 22: the local jail. On the day he was supposed to

2317
02:08:35,120 --> 02:08:38,200
Speaker 22: go home, he was picked up by a federal Marshal.

2318
02:08:39,160 --> 02:08:42,040
Speaker 22: The DOJ had waited until the last day of his

2319
02:08:42,120 --> 02:08:46,360
Speaker 22: sentence here to unseal the charges against him for January sixth,

2320
02:08:47,560 --> 02:08:49,480
Speaker 22: and after that he spent a year out on pre

2321
02:08:49,560 --> 02:08:52,120
Speaker 22: trial bond in that case. And then he eventually pleaded

2322
02:08:52,120 --> 02:08:54,880
Speaker 22: guilty to those charges in the summer of twenty twenty four,

2323
02:08:55,400 --> 02:08:58,000
Speaker 22: and he finally reported to federal prison in October of

2324
02:08:58,040 --> 02:09:01,879
Speaker 22: twenty twenty four to be there for almost five years,

2325
02:09:03,120 --> 02:09:06,680
Speaker 22: but he was released a few months later in January

2326
02:09:06,680 --> 02:09:11,400
Speaker 22: of this year after receiving a federal pardon, and now

2327
02:09:12,400 --> 02:09:15,400
Speaker 22: he wants to go back to the Capitol Building, not

2328
02:09:15,480 --> 02:09:19,600
Speaker 22: as a rioter this time, but as a congressman. The

2329
02:09:19,680 --> 02:09:23,280
Speaker 22: campaign is barely a month old. He's using a right

2330
02:09:23,280 --> 02:09:27,080
Speaker 22: wing crowdfunding site for campaign donations, so you can see

2331
02:09:27,120 --> 02:09:30,320
Speaker 22: that he hasn't cracked two hundred dollars yet. The only

2332
02:09:30,320 --> 02:09:33,760
Speaker 22: photo of his launch party is so tightly cropped that

2333
02:09:33,840 --> 02:09:36,760
Speaker 22: you can only see the candidate himself standing in an

2334
02:09:36,760 --> 02:09:39,960
Speaker 22: empty field in a public park. I don't think there's

2335
02:09:40,000 --> 02:09:42,520
Speaker 22: a lot of grassroots excitement for Tyler Diykes in South

2336
02:09:42,560 --> 02:09:46,320
Speaker 22: Carolina's first district. But if he does keep making the rounds,

2337
02:09:46,880 --> 02:09:48,360
Speaker 22: and if he ever ends up in front of a

2338
02:09:48,360 --> 02:09:52,240
Speaker 22: real reporter, I hope they'll ask him why doesn't he

2339
02:09:52,360 --> 02:09:56,000
Speaker 22: just produce those exhibits. The videos he's claiming are being

2340
02:09:56,080 --> 02:10:00,320
Speaker 22: kept from him under seal aren't. And if he so

2341
02:10:00,440 --> 02:10:03,080
Speaker 22: against any exhibits being held back from the court of

2342
02:10:03,080 --> 02:10:06,080
Speaker 22: public opinion, he could go ahead and release the one

2343
02:10:06,120 --> 02:10:09,480
Speaker 22: he actually has in his own possession, the only one

2344
02:10:09,560 --> 02:10:15,120
Speaker 22: that is sealed. He has his own discharge records show

2345
02:10:15,200 --> 02:10:18,960
Speaker 22: him to us. I'm dying to know how many of

2346
02:10:19,000 --> 02:10:22,160
Speaker 22: those Nazi rallies the Marine Corps knew about before they

2347
02:10:22,200 --> 02:10:25,720
Speaker 22: finally kicked him out. If you're interested in hearing more

2348
02:10:25,720 --> 02:10:29,200
Speaker 22: about this particular weird little Guy, there are two episodes

2349
02:10:29,200 --> 02:10:31,600
Speaker 22: available right now over on the Weird Little Guy's feed.

2350
02:10:32,240 --> 02:10:34,400
Speaker 22: Let's say Cool Zone Media show you can listen to

2351
02:10:34,960 --> 02:10:38,280
Speaker 22: wherever you get your podcasts. If you're in the Charleston area,

2352
02:10:38,520 --> 02:10:42,800
Speaker 22: or more importantly, if your conservative boomer parents are, it

2353
02:10:42,840 --> 02:10:45,280
Speaker 22: can't hurt to let folks know that one of your

2354
02:10:45,320 --> 02:10:49,840
Speaker 22: local candidates isn't being entirely forthcoming about why people are

2355
02:10:49,840 --> 02:10:53,680
Speaker 22: calling him a Nazi and wherever your conservative parents live.

2356
02:10:54,400 --> 02:10:57,320
Speaker 22: Maybe this is a useful example of the kind of

2357
02:10:57,360 --> 02:11:00,919
Speaker 22: thing you might find when you start at least scratching

2358
02:11:00,960 --> 02:11:04,080
Speaker 22: the surface of these America First candidates.

2359
02:11:18,440 --> 02:11:21,800
Speaker 2: All right, everybody, this is an emergency episode of it

2360
02:11:21,840 --> 02:11:24,920
Speaker 2: could happen here. We're dropping everything else for the most

2361
02:11:24,920 --> 02:11:29,240
Speaker 2: important breaking news in the country. Andy Dick has overdosed

2362
02:11:29,280 --> 02:11:33,080
Speaker 2: in public in the city of Los Angeles. Thankfully, in

2363
02:11:33,120 --> 02:11:36,240
Speaker 2: preparation for this, we've had our entire team deployed to

2364
02:11:36,280 --> 02:11:39,240
Speaker 2: the areas around Andy Dick's home. James, do you have

2365
02:11:39,240 --> 02:11:40,600
Speaker 2: any updates on the situation.

2366
02:11:41,880 --> 02:11:43,960
Speaker 24: No, I'm not sure who Andy Dick is. It's just

2367
02:11:44,040 --> 02:11:45,320
Speaker 24: like a public figure in a bout.

2368
02:11:45,400 --> 02:11:50,800
Speaker 2: I couldn't planned this out better. Andy Dick is America's

2369
02:11:50,800 --> 02:11:53,920
Speaker 2: sweetheart and he's going through some troubled times. But it's okay.

2370
02:11:53,800 --> 02:11:57,760
Speaker 2: They narcandem in public. No, it's Andy Dick's fault. This

2371
02:11:57,880 --> 02:12:00,760
Speaker 2: is entirely on Andy Dick. Ye on the person who

2372
02:12:00,800 --> 02:12:01,960
Speaker 2: had not Kerry Narkan.

2373
02:12:02,160 --> 02:12:02,360
Speaker 21: Yeah.

2374
02:12:02,480 --> 02:12:05,320
Speaker 2: No, one should never feel sorry for Andy Dick. I

2375
02:12:05,360 --> 02:12:06,680
Speaker 2: feel bad for the narcan.

2376
02:12:07,560 --> 02:12:10,600
Speaker 4: This is it could happen here. Executive Disorder, our weekly

2377
02:12:10,640 --> 02:12:13,880
Speaker 4: newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world,

2378
02:12:13,880 --> 02:12:18,440
Speaker 4: and Andy Dick. I'm Garrison Davis. This episode, I'm joined

2379
02:12:18,440 --> 02:12:19,520
Speaker 4: by do.

2380
02:12:19,560 --> 02:12:21,560
Speaker 25: We've refer to someone the first time we only used

2381
02:12:21,560 --> 02:12:22,600
Speaker 25: the last name Garrison.

2382
02:12:22,760 --> 02:12:26,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm joined by being James Shout, Robert Evans, and

2383
02:12:26,360 --> 02:12:30,240
Speaker 4: Sophy Lechter. We are covering the week of December fourth,

2384
02:12:30,320 --> 02:12:31,640
Speaker 4: December tenth.

2385
02:12:31,920 --> 02:12:35,040
Speaker 2: So one of the big stories of the last week

2386
02:12:35,160 --> 02:12:38,920
Speaker 2: or so is something that would seem would be unequivocally

2387
02:12:39,000 --> 02:12:41,800
Speaker 2: a bad thing in any other political climate, which is

2388
02:12:41,960 --> 02:12:45,880
Speaker 2: Netflix buying Warner Brothers and contributing to the shrinking ever

2389
02:12:46,000 --> 02:12:48,680
Speaker 2: further of like America's like the number of people who

2390
02:12:48,720 --> 02:12:51,120
Speaker 2: actually own all of the media that Americans consume.

2391
02:12:51,240 --> 02:12:53,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, monopolization is obviously bad.

2392
02:12:53,240 --> 02:12:55,800
Speaker 2: But in this case, I mean it's it's it's bad

2393
02:12:55,960 --> 02:12:59,000
Speaker 2: that on that end, it's probably better that Netflix buy

2394
02:12:59,040 --> 02:13:02,320
Speaker 2: it than Paramount. Yes, so I guess I'm like, well, okay,

2395
02:13:02,440 --> 02:13:04,000
Speaker 2: it's gonna be work creditor.

2396
02:13:03,720 --> 02:13:04,919
Speaker 13: Versus alien situation.

2397
02:13:05,200 --> 02:13:07,720
Speaker 4: It's a really a weird situation, right, because a lot

2398
02:13:07,720 --> 02:13:11,800
Speaker 4: of people are really dooming about you know, Netflix acquiring

2399
02:13:11,800 --> 02:13:13,640
Speaker 4: Warner Brothers and what that'll mean for like, you know,

2400
02:13:13,880 --> 02:13:16,640
Speaker 4: art and the you know, theatrical model of film distribution,

2401
02:13:17,400 --> 02:13:24,480
Speaker 4: and then not realizing that Paramount's counterbid based on Saudi money. Yeah,

2402
02:13:24,600 --> 02:13:28,320
Speaker 4: would place Warner Brothers in the control of one of

2403
02:13:28,360 --> 02:13:32,320
Speaker 4: the most Trump aligned like media enterprises in the United States,

2404
02:13:32,400 --> 02:13:33,560
Speaker 4: right now, Yeah.

2405
02:13:33,440 --> 02:13:35,560
Speaker 13: Yeah, So let's let's let's roll back a second and

2406
02:13:35,600 --> 02:13:37,640
Speaker 13: look at what is actually going on here. And it's

2407
02:13:37,640 --> 02:13:41,840
Speaker 13: actually very important to note this is being recorded on Wednesdays,

2408
02:13:41,920 --> 02:13:45,040
Speaker 13: Zeber tenth. This whole situation is changing extremely quickly. There

2409
02:13:45,240 --> 02:13:48,880
Speaker 13: could be some another unhinged thing could have happened by

2410
02:13:48,880 --> 02:13:52,640
Speaker 13: the time you're listening to this. But the basics here

2411
02:13:52,760 --> 02:13:56,440
Speaker 13: is that Paramount which was recently acquired by sky Dance,

2412
02:13:56,480 --> 02:13:56,880
Speaker 13: Which is.

2413
02:13:57,440 --> 02:13:59,400
Speaker 4: Which direction did that acquisition go?

2414
02:13:59,760 --> 02:14:01,720
Speaker 13: I mean, technically speaking was a merger, but it was

2415
02:14:01,800 --> 02:14:05,640
Speaker 13: really but it was Skydance taking control of Paramount. Skydance

2416
02:14:05,640 --> 02:14:09,360
Speaker 13: had been run by Larry Ellison's son, David Ellison.

2417
02:14:09,880 --> 02:14:10,240
Speaker 5: David.

2418
02:14:10,480 --> 02:14:12,600
Speaker 13: Yeah. So and this is this is this is this

2419
02:14:12,640 --> 02:14:16,040
Speaker 13: is the regime that sort of imposed Barry Weiss on CBS,

2420
02:14:16,800 --> 02:14:20,440
Speaker 13: which has become increasingly right wing under her quote unquote leadership.

2421
02:14:20,480 --> 02:14:23,200
Speaker 13: We're going to do a full episode about this, I

2422
02:14:23,240 --> 02:14:24,440
Speaker 13: think on Monday.

2423
02:14:24,840 --> 02:14:28,160
Speaker 4: We're gonna be tuning into the Charlie Kirka Erica kirktown

2424
02:14:28,200 --> 02:14:29,960
Speaker 4: Hall on CBS this Saturday.

2425
02:14:30,120 --> 02:14:33,920
Speaker 13: Oh God, they can't make me. I will have recorded

2426
02:14:33,920 --> 02:14:36,920
Speaker 13: this episode before they did this. I'm going to be

2427
02:14:36,920 --> 02:14:42,120
Speaker 13: tuning in because it looks phenomenal, so it's worth putting out.

2428
02:14:42,160 --> 02:14:44,200
Speaker 13: So Larry Ellison, who is the father of David Ellison,

2429
02:14:44,320 --> 02:14:46,240
Speaker 13: is one of the most terrifying of all of the

2430
02:14:46,320 --> 02:14:49,800
Speaker 13: right wing billionaires. Yeah, he's kind of more quiet than

2431
02:14:49,840 --> 02:14:54,320
Speaker 13: someone like Andresen or Elon Musk about being a unhinged

2432
02:14:54,400 --> 02:14:56,879
Speaker 13: right wing fanatic. But he's one of Trust's biggest supporters.

2433
02:14:56,880 --> 02:14:58,920
Speaker 13: He has a whole thing about how everyone's inevitably going

2434
02:14:58,960 --> 02:15:01,200
Speaker 13: to be under total cont surveillalists that will make everyone

2435
02:15:01,240 --> 02:15:06,120
Speaker 13: behave Well, we'll cover this more later, but the Ellison's

2436
02:15:06,160 --> 02:15:10,200
Speaker 13: the father son Ellison duo and paramounts backed by the Saudis,

2437
02:15:10,240 --> 02:15:11,280
Speaker 13: Abu Dhabi and Catter.

2438
02:15:11,440 --> 02:15:14,839
Speaker 2: They want Bugs Bunny desperately because he keeps My sources

2439
02:15:14,880 --> 02:15:17,840
Speaker 2: are saying he keeps pranking Mohammed Ben Salmon.

2440
02:15:17,640 --> 02:15:19,840
Speaker 4: By cross dressing. Yeah, and it's really.

2441
02:15:19,600 --> 02:15:23,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, the entire Saudi military is incapable of stopping bugs Bunny,

2442
02:15:23,640 --> 02:15:25,920
Speaker 2: I mean, bet for taking him down.

2443
02:15:26,480 --> 02:15:30,120
Speaker 4: Well, I think what's what's an interesting fact in these

2444
02:15:30,200 --> 02:15:34,640
Speaker 4: various bids for control of Warner Brothers. The Netflix deal

2445
02:15:34,760 --> 02:15:37,720
Speaker 4: does not include CNN. The Paramount deal does.

2446
02:15:38,120 --> 02:15:41,120
Speaker 13: Yeah, before we get intoff, should we should say what

2447
02:15:41,760 --> 02:15:45,000
Speaker 13: Paramount is doing now, which is Paramounts on Monday began

2448
02:15:45,080 --> 02:15:48,120
Speaker 13: to try to just do a hostile takeover by just

2449
02:15:48,160 --> 02:15:51,000
Speaker 13: straight up buying out the shares at what they're claiming

2450
02:15:51,120 --> 02:15:52,600
Speaker 13: is the higher share price. There's a whole lot of

2451
02:15:52,640 --> 02:15:55,320
Speaker 13: complicated stuff yeah about share pricing here that you don't

2452
02:15:55,360 --> 02:15:55,920
Speaker 13: really care about.

2453
02:15:56,000 --> 02:15:58,240
Speaker 2: And there have been so many dishonest headlines, like one

2454
02:15:58,280 --> 02:16:00,600
Speaker 2: being like Paramount lost the bid by just eventy five

2455
02:16:00,680 --> 02:16:02,760
Speaker 2: cents and seventy five cents to share. That's like hundreds

2456
02:16:02,760 --> 02:16:04,080
Speaker 2: and hundreds of millions of dollars.

2457
02:16:03,920 --> 02:16:07,400
Speaker 13: Gags, And that's not even it's it's all, it's all ridiculous. Yeah,

2458
02:16:07,560 --> 02:16:09,520
Speaker 13: the Wall Street Journal has been getting a lot of

2459
02:16:09,520 --> 02:16:12,200
Speaker 13: the information about this. We've gotten to a point on

2460
02:16:12,320 --> 02:16:15,160
Speaker 13: Wednesday where investors are going to the Wall Street Journal

2461
02:16:15,160 --> 02:16:16,600
Speaker 13: and being like, there's gonna be a bidding war. There's

2462
02:16:16,600 --> 02:16:18,720
Speaker 13: gonna be a bidding war. But the Wall Street Journal

2463
02:16:18,760 --> 02:16:20,760
Speaker 13: points out, and I think this is an interesting thing

2464
02:16:20,880 --> 02:16:24,400
Speaker 13: here that's important to say, these hostile takeover attempts almost

2465
02:16:24,440 --> 02:16:26,840
Speaker 13: never work. It's like thirty percent of the time. Yeah,

2466
02:16:26,880 --> 02:16:28,840
Speaker 13: and it's like sub thirty percent that these that these

2467
02:16:28,840 --> 02:16:32,200
Speaker 13: things kind of work. But the other card that the

2468
02:16:33,040 --> 02:16:38,520
Speaker 13: father's son Ellison duo have is claiming that Trump is

2469
02:16:38,560 --> 02:16:41,680
Speaker 13: more likely to back Paramount's buyout than the Netflix one

2470
02:16:41,720 --> 02:16:45,120
Speaker 13: because Trump can sort of stop this through anti trust yeah,

2471
02:16:45,240 --> 02:16:50,600
Speaker 13: or quote unquote anti trust stuff. Per Axios, Jared Kushner's

2472
02:16:50,640 --> 02:16:55,680
Speaker 13: consultancy firm is part of Paramount's buyout plan, and per

2473
02:16:55,720 --> 02:16:58,280
Speaker 13: Wall Street Journal, David Ellison met with TRUP with Trump

2474
02:16:58,320 --> 02:17:02,080
Speaker 13: administration officials in quote recent days, yeah, and has offered

2475
02:17:02,120 --> 02:17:03,720
Speaker 13: to you know this this comes back to what Garrison

2476
02:17:03,800 --> 02:17:05,720
Speaker 13: was saying about CNN being part about the part of

2477
02:17:05,760 --> 02:17:08,959
Speaker 13: this package they have been offering to effectively do to

2478
02:17:09,000 --> 02:17:11,120
Speaker 13: CNA what they did to CBS, which is put it

2479
02:17:11,200 --> 02:17:14,080
Speaker 13: under the control of the right wing fanatic and turn

2480
02:17:14,120 --> 02:17:17,920
Speaker 13: it into a propaganda pure propaganda outlet. This is you know,

2481
02:17:17,959 --> 02:17:23,640
Speaker 13: obviously corruption of a sort of mind blowing yeah, yeah,

2482
02:17:23,680 --> 02:17:25,080
Speaker 13: and a broad to the fact that like our quote

2483
02:17:25,120 --> 02:17:28,240
Speaker 13: unquote free press is literally just for sale. Amazingly, this

2484
02:17:28,280 --> 02:17:29,840
Speaker 13: is not this doesn't seem to be working.

2485
02:17:30,440 --> 02:17:33,440
Speaker 4: No, I mean, and Trump has spoken positively about Netflix

2486
02:17:33,440 --> 02:17:36,000
Speaker 4: and the Netflix CEO the past two days.

2487
02:17:36,040 --> 02:17:39,320
Speaker 13: But he's also speaking negatively about both of them.

2488
02:17:39,520 --> 02:17:43,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, both the Netflix's negatively about Ellison recently. And there's

2489
02:17:43,800 --> 02:17:47,000
Speaker 2: a there's a quote from an article I found uh

2490
02:17:47,080 --> 02:17:50,120
Speaker 2: in the Wall Street Journal. Trump is so far avoided

2491
02:17:50,120 --> 02:17:52,640
Speaker 2: publicly backing a bitterer. None of them are particularly great

2492
02:17:52,640 --> 02:17:54,320
Speaker 2: friends of mine, he said at a White House round

2493
02:17:54,320 --> 02:17:56,760
Speaker 2: table on Monday. A person close to Trump said the

2494
02:17:56,760 --> 02:17:58,879
Speaker 2: President will want Paramount and Netflix to compete for his

2495
02:17:58,920 --> 02:18:01,360
Speaker 2: approval of a deal, which does sound very Trump.

2496
02:18:02,160 --> 02:18:05,640
Speaker 13: Yeah, and apparently the specific think he's mad at Paramount

2497
02:18:05,720 --> 02:18:08,920
Speaker 13: about is for having mergery Taylor Creen on CBSS.

2498
02:18:09,080 --> 02:18:10,240
Speaker 4: Yeah funny.

2499
02:18:10,240 --> 02:18:11,920
Speaker 2: Oh, he's so really funny.

2500
02:18:12,000 --> 02:18:14,400
Speaker 13: There is no amount of sort of ass kissing that

2501
02:18:14,440 --> 02:18:17,959
Speaker 13: you can do to actually make Trump consistently be on

2502
02:18:18,040 --> 02:18:20,879
Speaker 13: your side. It's really hideous. This is all disgusting.

2503
02:18:20,520 --> 02:18:24,920
Speaker 4: Unless unless you give him the FIFO World Peace Prize trophy.

2504
02:18:25,080 --> 02:18:27,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, he'll die for FIFA now. Yeah, can I just

2505
02:18:27,520 --> 02:18:32,280
Speaker 2: say fuck me? He's actually renaming American football to soccer.

2506
02:18:33,680 --> 02:18:33,960
Speaker 11: God.

2507
02:18:34,280 --> 02:18:39,640
Speaker 4: I love the FIFA trophy because it looks disgusting trophy.

2508
02:18:39,680 --> 02:18:41,840
Speaker 2: Yes, I have fifteen minutes on that.

2509
02:18:43,160 --> 02:18:46,640
Speaker 4: It's just all all those hands grasping that ball.

2510
02:18:46,800 --> 02:18:47,440
Speaker 13: Ohh my god.

2511
02:18:47,520 --> 02:18:47,720
Speaker 21: Yeah.

2512
02:18:47,920 --> 02:18:50,439
Speaker 25: Really genuinely one of the one of the most impressive

2513
02:18:50,440 --> 02:18:54,400
Speaker 25: actors sports sick fantasy since nineteen thirty three.

2514
02:18:54,160 --> 02:18:57,720
Speaker 4: But but yeah, it doesn't seem like Trump is as

2515
02:18:57,920 --> 02:19:01,360
Speaker 4: keen to back Paramount's bit as what some of the

2516
02:19:01,360 --> 02:19:05,560
Speaker 4: Paramount people thought he might be. The Netflix deal might

2517
02:19:05,640 --> 02:19:07,040
Speaker 4: just end up actually going through.

2518
02:19:07,720 --> 02:19:10,160
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, and we'll see about this. This is all

2519
02:19:10,160 --> 02:19:12,920
Speaker 13: gonna change probably by the time you're reading this or

2520
02:19:13,120 --> 02:19:14,720
Speaker 13: listening to this. That's that's the one that you do.

2521
02:19:15,400 --> 02:19:18,199
Speaker 13: But it's so cool that we live in an economy

2522
02:19:18,240 --> 02:19:22,240
Speaker 13: where your two options are Netflix destroys Film Forever and

2523
02:19:22,720 --> 02:19:28,440
Speaker 13: the Nazis gained control of CNN. It's great, great system. Yeah, no, no, no, no.

2524
02:19:28,520 --> 02:19:31,480
Speaker 4: Notes, And what what would really be damaging if if

2525
02:19:31,520 --> 02:19:34,560
Speaker 4: Paramount's able to buy Warner Brothers is that then they

2526
02:19:34,600 --> 02:19:38,000
Speaker 4: would be in charge of Nathan Fielder's rehearsal, which which

2527
02:19:38,040 --> 02:19:43,879
Speaker 4: does which does target the fascistic Paramount regime. Yeah, James,

2528
02:19:43,640 --> 02:19:46,960
Speaker 4: what's some what's some small news stories we can uh,

2529
02:19:47,240 --> 02:19:49,560
Speaker 4: we can go with here before our first break.

2530
02:19:49,640 --> 02:19:52,520
Speaker 25: Yeah, okay, I'm operating on a couple of computers here,

2531
02:19:52,560 --> 02:19:55,760
Speaker 25: so this is gonna I'm gonna have to work around

2532
02:19:55,800 --> 02:19:56,599
Speaker 25: some constraints.

2533
02:19:56,640 --> 02:19:59,120
Speaker 4: Fam good thing you're wearing your five eleven uniform to

2534
02:19:59,160 --> 02:20:01,240
Speaker 4: help maintain the discipline necessary.

2535
02:20:01,680 --> 02:20:02,000
Speaker 5: Girls.

2536
02:20:02,000 --> 02:20:04,039
Speaker 25: And this is not five eleven, my friend, this is

2537
02:20:04,120 --> 02:20:07,080
Speaker 25: five dot one dot one. Yeah, you can all get

2538
02:20:07,080 --> 02:20:09,480
Speaker 25: this ship outside of Syria and Iraq, and I fucking

2539
02:20:09,560 --> 02:20:09,840
Speaker 25: love it.

2540
02:20:10,160 --> 02:20:14,000
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. I still have my knockoff Timberland shirt which

2541
02:20:14,080 --> 02:20:17,360
Speaker 2: just says fixing gand and looks honestly, the label looks

2542
02:20:17,400 --> 02:20:19,800
Speaker 2: like an AI slop tried to put the Timberland logo.

2543
02:20:19,840 --> 02:20:20,440
Speaker 2: It's amazing.

2544
02:20:20,480 --> 02:20:23,400
Speaker 25: My favorite is the one that just says sixteen five

2545
02:20:23,720 --> 02:20:26,520
Speaker 25: plus eleven. I love fake five eleven.

2546
02:20:26,520 --> 02:20:26,720
Speaker 24: Shit.

2547
02:20:26,800 --> 02:20:28,640
Speaker 25: If you have fake five eleven ship, I have a

2548
02:20:28,680 --> 02:20:31,160
Speaker 25: collection of it. Send it to me. I will retire

2549
02:20:31,200 --> 02:20:33,879
Speaker 25: and make a museum one day. I cannot get enough

2550
02:20:33,920 --> 02:20:35,280
Speaker 25: of it. I love that it started as a rock

2551
02:20:35,280 --> 02:20:37,200
Speaker 25: climbing brand in New Smite and now it is a

2552
02:20:37,240 --> 02:20:38,800
Speaker 25: lifestyle brand in Syria.

2553
02:20:39,160 --> 02:20:39,879
Speaker 24: It's perfect.

2554
02:20:40,360 --> 02:20:43,520
Speaker 2: I tell you, I missed my Adodus tracksuit that I got.

2555
02:20:43,280 --> 02:20:46,680
Speaker 24: A I got some I got some merle boots as well.

2556
02:20:47,320 --> 02:20:49,879
Speaker 24: Yeah I love that ship.

2557
02:20:50,200 --> 02:20:56,640
Speaker 25: I got a fake Gerban knife graber that that yeah.

2558
02:20:57,160 --> 02:21:02,879
Speaker 24: Yeah, bullshit knives. Yeah, one of my.

2559
02:21:02,800 --> 02:21:04,840
Speaker 13: Face putting out women's hats very soon.

2560
02:21:05,080 --> 02:21:06,000
Speaker 24: Yeah yeah.

2561
02:21:06,080 --> 02:21:08,800
Speaker 25: Okay, let's talk about the news. So this is a

2562
02:21:08,800 --> 02:21:11,520
Speaker 25: fun one. Schroding does permit, We're going to call it.

2563
02:21:11,800 --> 02:21:15,800
Speaker 25: In Pensacola, somebody participating in Food not Bombs was arrested

2564
02:21:16,200 --> 02:21:20,680
Speaker 25: Following that, at a press conference, the city announced that

2565
02:21:20,720 --> 02:21:23,560
Speaker 25: a person was arrested for being in a park too late, right,

2566
02:21:23,600 --> 02:21:25,480
Speaker 25: I guess in Florida, of course, yeah, this is this

2567
02:21:25,560 --> 02:21:28,199
Speaker 25: is the most serious crime, yes, and also giving food

2568
02:21:28,240 --> 02:21:31,119
Speaker 25: to poor people, which is probably like a felony in Florida.

2569
02:21:31,600 --> 02:21:34,600
Speaker 25: So the city then announced issue have been resolved because

2570
02:21:34,720 --> 02:21:37,240
Speaker 25: there had been there was a permit issued to Food

2571
02:21:37,320 --> 02:21:39,879
Speaker 25: not Bombs for them to.

2572
02:21:39,959 --> 02:21:42,039
Speaker 24: Be in the park late and give people food.

2573
02:21:42,800 --> 02:21:45,000
Speaker 25: Food not Bombs did not apply for the permit, nor

2574
02:21:45,040 --> 02:21:47,840
Speaker 25: do they want the permit, right, there's no kind of

2575
02:21:47,840 --> 02:21:49,600
Speaker 25: That's not how Food on Bombs works. Food not Bombs

2576
02:21:49,600 --> 02:21:52,440
Speaker 25: is an is an action, not an entity, right like

2577
02:21:52,560 --> 02:21:57,080
Speaker 25: it is a protest action. The city is now reviewing

2578
02:21:57,200 --> 02:22:00,600
Speaker 25: if the permit is releasable under public records law, so

2579
02:22:00,720 --> 02:22:03,560
Speaker 25: someone can find out who attempted to white Knight food

2580
02:22:03,600 --> 02:22:04,800
Speaker 25: not bombs.

2581
02:22:05,959 --> 02:22:06,279
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2582
02:22:06,320 --> 02:22:08,520
Speaker 25: Some of the suggestions is as a guy who runs

2583
02:22:08,520 --> 02:22:10,440
Speaker 25: some kind of we will cooperate with the cops to

2584
02:22:10,440 --> 02:22:13,720
Speaker 25: get people off fentanyl charity, which uses some incredible AI

2585
02:22:13,800 --> 02:22:16,600
Speaker 25: imagery on its Instagram page.

2586
02:22:17,080 --> 02:22:18,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds good.

2587
02:22:18,440 --> 02:22:21,560
Speaker 25: Yeah, so I will keep you updated on this, this

2588
02:22:21,720 --> 02:22:22,720
Speaker 25: Florida story.

2589
02:22:22,879 --> 02:22:23,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for that.

2590
02:22:23,640 --> 02:22:24,000
Speaker 7: James.

2591
02:22:24,400 --> 02:22:28,120
Speaker 25: In the Oregon versus Trump case regarding National Guard deployment,

2592
02:22:28,240 --> 02:22:31,520
Speaker 25: Judge J. Biby, not normally a guy associated with WOKE,

2593
02:22:31,920 --> 02:22:35,080
Speaker 25: a George W. Bush appointee, has penned an extensive opinion

2594
02:22:35,120 --> 02:22:38,000
Speaker 25: I think of sixty four pages on the domestic violence

2595
02:22:38,080 --> 02:22:40,280
Speaker 25: Clause at the Constitution and how it ought to restrain

2596
02:22:40,360 --> 02:22:42,680
Speaker 25: the use of the Guard. So it's like a different

2597
02:22:42,800 --> 02:22:46,440
Speaker 25: argument than we've seen previously, right in discussions about the

2598
02:22:46,480 --> 02:22:48,119
Speaker 25: National Guards, because.

2599
02:22:47,959 --> 02:22:52,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've read the other judge opinion pieces, but not

2600
02:22:52,120 --> 02:22:52,680
Speaker 4: this one.

2601
02:22:53,160 --> 02:22:53,560
Speaker 24: Yeah.

2602
02:22:53,720 --> 02:22:56,039
Speaker 25: So Biby's been been in it for a while, and ye,

2603
02:22:56,200 --> 02:22:59,600
Speaker 25: like he's been someone who has previously not really been

2604
02:22:59,640 --> 02:23:01,400
Speaker 25: in a post of what I might see as of

2605
02:23:01,560 --> 02:23:04,160
Speaker 25: overreach in terms of state power and violence.

2606
02:23:04,560 --> 02:23:05,520
Speaker 24: But yeah, using this.

2607
02:23:05,520 --> 02:23:07,680
Speaker 25: This is a different close at a constitution, right, So

2608
02:23:07,800 --> 02:23:12,200
Speaker 25: it's now moving along in that discussion. Yesterday as we're

2609
02:23:12,240 --> 02:23:14,800
Speaker 25: recording this, so that would be on Tuesday. At the

2610
02:23:14,879 --> 02:23:18,119
Speaker 25: ninth the Democrats held they buy cameral shadow quote unquote

2611
02:23:18,160 --> 02:23:21,599
Speaker 25: shadow hearing on the detention of US citizens by DHS

2612
02:23:22,240 --> 02:23:24,280
Speaker 25: that doesn't really have the power to do much. And

2613
02:23:24,320 --> 02:23:26,039
Speaker 25: I have not had time to listen to the entire

2614
02:23:26,480 --> 02:23:29,480
Speaker 25: recording because it was only streamed on Facebook. I love

2615
02:23:29,520 --> 02:23:31,119
Speaker 25: that we have an opposition in this country.

2616
02:23:31,440 --> 02:23:32,880
Speaker 4: God, I love the Democrats.

2617
02:23:33,080 --> 02:23:36,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're really I like how together they've got it,

2618
02:23:36,160 --> 02:23:38,760
Speaker 2: like after a rough patch, they're really firing out.

2619
02:23:39,040 --> 02:23:43,080
Speaker 25: Yeah, like a phoenix from the ashes of an absolute

2620
02:23:43,120 --> 02:23:44,400
Speaker 25: ass for being in the election.

2621
02:23:44,640 --> 02:23:46,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like an ass phoenix exactly.

2622
02:23:47,040 --> 02:23:50,000
Speaker 25: Yeah, ass phoenix. That's that's my band. Actually, I can't

2623
02:23:50,040 --> 02:23:51,680
Speaker 25: believe that you plugged us on there.

2624
02:23:51,720 --> 02:23:53,320
Speaker 24: Thank you. Okay.

2625
02:23:53,760 --> 02:23:57,440
Speaker 25: Trump's ongoing barrage of hate about Somali people has been

2626
02:23:57,440 --> 02:23:59,959
Speaker 25: met with some incredible posting. People who are not on

2627
02:24:00,160 --> 02:24:02,920
Speaker 25: x dot com will have miss this, but like genuinely

2628
02:24:02,959 --> 02:24:05,360
Speaker 25: some of the funniest response to some of the most

2629
02:24:05,400 --> 02:24:09,400
Speaker 25: hateful shit. Like Trump and Miller have both been on

2630
02:24:09,440 --> 02:24:13,240
Speaker 25: a and I guess Fox News. Fox News went to

2631
02:24:13,360 --> 02:24:16,200
Speaker 25: Minneapolis and heard a call to prayer and had a

2632
02:24:16,240 --> 02:24:19,280
Speaker 25: meltdown about it. But this is this campaign, I guess

2633
02:24:19,320 --> 02:24:22,520
Speaker 25: by Trump and Miller is very much ongoing. We spoke

2634
02:24:22,520 --> 02:24:24,560
Speaker 25: about that last week with a TPS and people an't familiar.

2635
02:24:24,600 --> 02:24:27,280
Speaker 25: They can check that out last week. Yeah, Aileen Higgins

2636
02:24:27,720 --> 02:24:31,400
Speaker 25: won the Miami mayoral election. Do I want to make

2637
02:24:31,400 --> 02:24:32,080
Speaker 25: a pit bull joke?

2638
02:24:33,160 --> 02:24:35,680
Speaker 5: The dog you're talking about, mister worldwide?

2639
02:24:35,840 --> 02:24:37,879
Speaker 25: Well, we could do. Margat is a major issue. I'm

2640
02:24:37,879 --> 02:24:39,119
Speaker 25: just trying to work on that acronym.

2641
02:24:39,680 --> 02:24:43,480
Speaker 2: Oh God, because I'm always thinking about mister worldwide James's

2642
02:24:43,520 --> 02:24:45,000
Speaker 2: He's never a far from my thoughts.

2643
02:24:45,200 --> 02:24:47,720
Speaker 25: No, I often think about Pitbull and how he and

2644
02:24:47,760 --> 02:24:49,880
Speaker 25: Hillary Clinton often were exactly the same thing.

2645
02:24:50,360 --> 02:24:52,480
Speaker 2: That's right, they have a lot in common. Actually, the

2646
02:24:53,520 --> 02:24:54,200
Speaker 2: primary thing is.

2647
02:24:59,320 --> 02:25:02,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I don't know, yes, but this is the

2648
02:25:02,440 --> 02:25:05,400
Speaker 4: first time a Democrat has won the mayoral office in

2649
02:25:05,440 --> 02:25:07,920
Speaker 4: Miami in almost thirty years, which is and it is

2650
02:25:08,000 --> 02:25:09,119
Speaker 4: wild significant.

2651
02:25:09,720 --> 02:25:10,560
Speaker 13: This is astonishing.

2652
02:25:10,680 --> 02:25:10,880
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2653
02:25:10,920 --> 02:25:13,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, this was like a pretty decent win. This was

2654
02:25:13,200 --> 02:25:16,480
Speaker 4: a runoff election, but it's still a pretty pretty substantial win.

2655
02:25:16,560 --> 02:25:18,800
Speaker 13: Yeah, And I think there's there's There's a few important

2656
02:25:18,800 --> 02:25:21,880
Speaker 13: notes here. One is that even the Miami Cuba demographics

2657
02:25:21,879 --> 02:25:25,520
Speaker 13: swung massively towards the Democrats, which is sort of apocalyptic

2658
02:25:25,560 --> 02:25:29,160
Speaker 13: news for the Republicans, really really bad. If you're losing

2659
02:25:29,160 --> 02:25:30,920
Speaker 13: the Miami Cuban population.

2660
02:25:30,720 --> 02:25:36,720
Speaker 2: If you have got Miami Cubans to think critically about politics,

2661
02:25:37,440 --> 02:25:40,080
Speaker 2: things are dire. Yeah.

2662
02:25:39,720 --> 02:25:42,560
Speaker 13: And and the other thing here too is that the

2663
02:25:42,600 --> 02:25:47,040
Speaker 13: Florida Democratic Party, like I would compare them to clowns,

2664
02:25:47,080 --> 02:25:50,000
Speaker 13: but like these these motherfuckers make Bobo the Clown look

2665
02:25:50,040 --> 02:25:53,120
Speaker 13: like fucking Napoleon. These are the most some of the

2666
02:25:53,160 --> 02:25:56,680
Speaker 13: most incompetent people the entire history of politics, and the

2667
02:25:56,720 --> 02:25:59,800
Speaker 13: Republicans are losing to them. That's astonished.

2668
02:26:00,760 --> 02:26:04,440
Speaker 4: There were a couple of other results like this, Yeah,

2669
02:26:04,800 --> 02:26:08,160
Speaker 4: this week, Democrats flipped a Georgia State House seat. The

2670
02:26:08,200 --> 02:26:10,680
Speaker 4: seat moved blue by twenty two points.

2671
02:26:10,840 --> 02:26:11,760
Speaker 5: Geez yep.

2672
02:26:12,200 --> 02:26:16,480
Speaker 13: They flipped Albuquerque City council. There's all of these little results,

2673
02:26:16,520 --> 02:26:18,760
Speaker 13: and this has been happening basically since we got the

2674
02:26:18,760 --> 02:26:22,680
Speaker 13: first special elections of the Trump administration, where the Republicans

2675
02:26:22,680 --> 02:26:25,320
Speaker 13: are losing like ar plus twenty two districts. They're getting

2676
02:26:25,320 --> 02:26:27,720
Speaker 13: destroyed in places that it shouldn't be possible for them

2677
02:26:27,720 --> 02:26:31,160
Speaker 13: to lose. And this is another major confirmation of the

2678
02:26:31,240 --> 02:26:34,440
Speaker 13: media everyone hates them theory. Every day it gets more

2679
02:26:34,480 --> 02:26:37,760
Speaker 13: and more validated. Everyone can hate them.

2680
02:26:38,160 --> 02:26:40,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, last a small news story that I think is

2681
02:26:40,959 --> 02:26:43,640
Speaker 4: worth mentioning because it's a I think pretty important. Actually,

2682
02:26:43,920 --> 02:26:47,840
Speaker 4: conservative podcaster Benny Johnson is threatening to sue Milo Iianopolis

2683
02:26:47,840 --> 02:26:51,040
Speaker 4: for alleging that he is gay. So we're gonna be

2684
02:26:51,160 --> 02:26:53,959
Speaker 4: keeping up with this story pretty close. I know this

2685
02:26:54,000 --> 02:26:56,720
Speaker 4: has a lot of ramifications for listeners.

2686
02:26:57,320 --> 02:27:09,560
Speaker 26: Yeah, great, cool, we should do ads.

2687
02:27:15,600 --> 02:27:19,279
Speaker 2: We're back and we're talking about the January sixth pipe

2688
02:27:19,280 --> 02:27:20,760
Speaker 2: bomb guy suspect.

2689
02:27:21,320 --> 02:27:21,879
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2690
02:27:22,360 --> 02:27:24,560
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, we know there's a person. We don't

2691
02:27:24,560 --> 02:27:26,199
Speaker 2: know that it was a guy. We know someone planted

2692
02:27:26,240 --> 02:27:28,439
Speaker 2: those pipe bombs. I'm going to talk about the suspect.

2693
02:27:28,520 --> 02:27:28,600
Speaker 4: Ye.

2694
02:27:29,360 --> 02:27:31,200
Speaker 2: I want to start just for a little bit by

2695
02:27:31,680 --> 02:27:35,000
Speaker 2: again talking about the degree to which I really hope

2696
02:27:35,000 --> 02:27:38,840
Speaker 2: this is apocalyptic for the Blaze. Yeah, what they did

2697
02:27:39,040 --> 02:27:41,840
Speaker 2: is a case study and what you should never do

2698
02:27:42,120 --> 02:27:47,640
Speaker 2: as a publication. It was unethical, it was idiotic, and

2699
02:27:47,720 --> 02:27:51,920
Speaker 2: it was deeply dangerous. And if the Capitol police officer

2700
02:27:52,160 --> 02:27:54,600
Speaker 2: does not sue them. I don't know what kind of

2701
02:27:54,640 --> 02:27:57,040
Speaker 2: advice she's getting other than maybe just sheer terror at

2702
02:27:57,040 --> 02:27:59,920
Speaker 2: the number of death threats she's already received. But like ma'am,

2703
02:28:00,200 --> 02:28:02,360
Speaker 2: getting all of Glennbeck's money is the only thing that

2704
02:28:02,440 --> 02:28:04,760
Speaker 2: will keep you safe right now. Please do it now.

2705
02:28:04,840 --> 02:28:07,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, So you were out last week when we got

2706
02:28:08,879 --> 02:28:11,480
Speaker 4: some the very first reporting on the pipe bomb arrest.

2707
02:28:11,640 --> 02:28:13,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, is the only thing I regret about

2708
02:28:13,920 --> 02:28:14,520
Speaker 2: my vacation.

2709
02:28:15,120 --> 02:28:17,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, but very little information was out last week, and

2710
02:28:18,040 --> 02:28:22,240
Speaker 4: we have more information now regarding the alleged January sixth

2711
02:28:22,280 --> 02:28:26,039
Speaker 4: pipe bomber, or technically January fifth pipe bomber, who is

2712
02:28:26,080 --> 02:28:28,920
Speaker 4: now charged with transporting an explosive device with attempt to kill,

2713
02:28:28,959 --> 02:28:32,320
Speaker 4: injure or damaged property, and attempted malicious destruction by means

2714
02:28:32,360 --> 02:28:36,560
Speaker 4: of fire and explosive materials. According to court records, the

2715
02:28:36,680 --> 02:28:42,160
Speaker 4: FBI identified the suspect through cell tower records, license plate readers,

2716
02:28:42,560 --> 02:28:47,000
Speaker 4: and purchases of potential bomb making materials, including the pipes,

2717
02:28:47,080 --> 02:28:51,360
Speaker 4: the cap ends, the wires, steel, and nine volt batteries.

2718
02:28:52,040 --> 02:28:55,880
Speaker 4: It doesn't appear that they gained possession of new information,

2719
02:28:56,520 --> 02:28:59,240
Speaker 4: but by changing the agents looking at the information they

2720
02:28:59,280 --> 02:29:03,720
Speaker 4: were able to piece piece this together to actually make

2721
02:29:03,760 --> 02:29:05,520
Speaker 4: inaction on it, leading to the arrest.

2722
02:29:05,560 --> 02:29:07,720
Speaker 2: So it's a classic FBI story of they had all

2723
02:29:07,760 --> 02:29:09,879
Speaker 2: the information they needed to have caught this guy very

2724
02:29:09,920 --> 02:29:12,759
Speaker 2: long ago and did not yeah.

2725
02:29:12,560 --> 02:29:14,440
Speaker 4: Right, or lack the ability to like put the piece

2726
02:29:14,480 --> 02:29:17,040
Speaker 4: together in a way that makes them able to do arrest.

2727
02:29:17,320 --> 02:29:19,039
Speaker 2: But as is always the case, this was not an

2728
02:29:19,080 --> 02:29:21,480
Speaker 2: issue if they didn't have enough access to information. There

2729
02:29:21,560 --> 02:29:24,760
Speaker 2: was too much encryptied there, you know, they need more power. No,

2730
02:29:24,840 --> 02:29:27,240
Speaker 2: they had everything they needed. They just didn't think right,

2731
02:29:27,840 --> 02:29:29,480
Speaker 2: That's what it was. They weren't thinking right, you know.

2732
02:29:30,520 --> 02:29:33,960
Speaker 4: Still, very little has come out officially about the alleged

2733
02:29:33,959 --> 02:29:35,440
Speaker 4: bomber's potential motivation.

2734
02:29:36,080 --> 02:29:39,679
Speaker 2: Who may be innocent, let's be clear, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2735
02:29:39,280 --> 02:29:42,680
Speaker 4: There's nothing alluding to his motivation in the charging documents

2736
02:29:42,920 --> 02:29:46,199
Speaker 4: besides just an interest, a year's long interest in bombmaking,

2737
02:29:46,760 --> 02:29:51,280
Speaker 4: starting in twenty nineteen and continuing into like twenty twenty one. Now,

2738
02:29:51,440 --> 02:29:56,400
Speaker 4: NBC has reported based on sources inside the law enforcement

2739
02:29:56,440 --> 02:30:00,920
Speaker 4: investigation team, but Embassy's reported that before for the suspect

2740
02:30:00,920 --> 02:30:04,800
Speaker 4: acquired an attorney, he confessed to investigators and told the

2741
02:30:04,840 --> 02:30:09,000
Speaker 4: FBI that he believed in twenty twenty election conspiracy theories.

2742
02:30:10,360 --> 02:30:13,320
Speaker 4: But some new information from the New York Post, which

2743
02:30:13,320 --> 02:30:16,960
Speaker 4: I have verified, may have actually cracked this story wide open.

2744
02:30:17,840 --> 02:30:23,280
Speaker 4: They have learned that the suspect is a Brony. My

2745
02:30:23,320 --> 02:30:27,760
Speaker 4: Little Pony fan draws a lot of actually relatively good

2746
02:30:27,840 --> 02:30:30,879
Speaker 4: quality My Little Pony fan art and writes fins my

2747
02:30:30,920 --> 02:30:34,080
Speaker 4: Little Pony fan fiction. I could read some here.

2748
02:30:33,879 --> 02:30:36,679
Speaker 2: Garrison, what is the quality of their fan fiction? Yeah's

2749
02:30:36,680 --> 02:30:38,160
Speaker 2: just just give us like fifteen minutes.

2750
02:30:38,560 --> 02:30:41,760
Speaker 4: I'll read a paragraph. Quote Apple Bloom's eyes. It snapped

2751
02:30:41,760 --> 02:30:44,400
Speaker 4: open and she sat up in her bed, hinting heavily

2752
02:30:44,520 --> 02:30:47,280
Speaker 4: and sweat dripping from her red mane. It was another

2753
02:30:47,360 --> 02:30:50,200
Speaker 4: bad dream about that village she had discovered back in

2754
02:30:50,240 --> 02:30:53,880
Speaker 4: the ever Free Forest sunny Town. At first, it seemed

2755
02:30:53,920 --> 02:30:57,160
Speaker 4: like a normal, peaceful little village, kind of like Ponyville.

2756
02:30:57,760 --> 02:31:00,280
Speaker 4: What was strange was that none of the inhabitants had

2757
02:31:00,360 --> 02:31:03,680
Speaker 4: qut marks. In fact, they hadn't the slightest clue as

2758
02:31:03,680 --> 02:31:05,039
Speaker 4: to what a qutie mark was.

2759
02:31:05,800 --> 02:31:07,160
Speaker 2: So could you send me that link?

2760
02:31:08,560 --> 02:31:08,720
Speaker 7: Yeah?

2761
02:31:08,760 --> 02:31:09,039
Speaker 3: Thank you.

2762
02:31:09,200 --> 02:31:12,279
Speaker 4: H I'll actually I'll send this to the entire team chat.

2763
02:31:12,879 --> 02:31:17,920
Speaker 13: I'm demanding Hazard pay at the next union negotiations hazard pay.

2764
02:31:18,400 --> 02:31:22,039
Speaker 4: Actually like this is very standard but relatively good quality.

2765
02:31:22,040 --> 02:31:26,240
Speaker 4: My Little Pony broni activity non sexual entirely Like. I've

2766
02:31:26,240 --> 02:31:29,160
Speaker 4: looked at a lot of this guy's art. It's fairly clear, pros,

2767
02:31:29,640 --> 02:31:31,920
Speaker 4: fairly high quality. My Little Pony fan are in a

2768
02:31:32,000 --> 02:31:34,760
Speaker 4: variety of styles from different eras oft the show not

2769
02:31:34,959 --> 02:31:38,000
Speaker 4: like a sexually fetishistic depiction.

2770
02:31:38,440 --> 02:31:41,039
Speaker 2: Can't wait to see the headlines from this. Yeah, cool

2771
02:31:41,120 --> 02:31:44,439
Speaker 2: Zone host defends Capital bipe bombers pros.

2772
02:31:45,600 --> 02:31:46,039
Speaker 13: But no like.

2773
02:31:46,080 --> 02:31:49,800
Speaker 4: A high school classmate told Washington Post that he was

2774
02:31:49,840 --> 02:31:52,680
Speaker 4: bullied for having My Little Pony backpack in school.

2775
02:31:52,760 --> 02:31:53,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense.

2776
02:31:53,840 --> 02:31:55,840
Speaker 4: He's had this interest for quite a while, kind of

2777
02:31:56,080 --> 02:31:59,240
Speaker 4: kind of tapered off a few years before before the bombing,

2778
02:31:59,600 --> 02:32:01,520
Speaker 4: But for a while this was like kind of one

2779
02:32:01,520 --> 02:32:05,720
Speaker 4: of his main hobbies. On a Tumblr profile, he lists

2780
02:32:05,720 --> 02:32:10,720
Speaker 4: his interest as quote hardcore music, video games, mainly horror drawing,

2781
02:32:11,160 --> 02:32:17,080
Speaker 4: improving myself philosophically, and anime. Unquote. Well, his grandmother has

2782
02:32:17,080 --> 02:32:20,920
Speaker 4: described him as quote almost autistic, like because he doesn't

2783
02:32:21,000 --> 02:32:22,360
Speaker 4: understand a lot of stuff.

2784
02:32:22,480 --> 02:32:23,039
Speaker 5: Unquote.

2785
02:32:23,280 --> 02:32:26,240
Speaker 4: He's only ever worked for the family bail bond business.

2786
02:32:26,480 --> 02:32:31,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean, look, I'll say this, he wasn't bad,

2787
02:32:31,520 --> 02:32:34,160
Speaker 2: Like he could have had a future in a private

2788
02:32:34,200 --> 02:32:36,800
Speaker 2: security or something like that, like not bad ops as

2789
02:32:36,800 --> 02:32:39,360
Speaker 2: it turned out. Yeah, but I don't know.

2790
02:32:39,959 --> 02:32:42,480
Speaker 4: A funny slash a dark thing is that in the

2791
02:32:42,600 --> 02:32:45,840
Speaker 4: right wace just desperate effort to make everything about trans people.

2792
02:32:46,080 --> 02:32:48,880
Speaker 4: They have turned this Brony thing into like a you

2793
02:32:48,879 --> 02:32:52,280
Speaker 4: know the trans people also like my little pony and

2794
02:32:52,400 --> 02:32:55,760
Speaker 4: like Bronie and like like quotes from like psychologists in

2795
02:32:56,080 --> 02:32:59,120
Speaker 4: some of these articles about how how how Bronie is

2796
02:32:59,200 --> 02:33:04,520
Speaker 4: like play with like gender boundaries by by being fans

2797
02:33:04,560 --> 02:33:08,240
Speaker 4: of like a girl's, like a propery that's usually enjoyed

2798
02:33:08,240 --> 02:33:11,560
Speaker 4: by girls. So this was like a slight attempt to

2799
02:33:11,600 --> 02:33:13,879
Speaker 4: try to kind of paint this and like in like

2800
02:33:13,920 --> 02:33:17,039
Speaker 4: a pseudo translate, but that's not getting much traction because

2801
02:33:17,040 --> 02:33:18,760
Speaker 4: like people know what Bronie's are, and like, come on,

2802
02:33:19,080 --> 02:33:21,360
Speaker 4: I think this, this whole strategy is is on the

2803
02:33:21,400 --> 02:33:22,400
Speaker 4: out in some ways.

2804
02:33:22,760 --> 02:33:25,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, am I am I incorrect here because I had

2805
02:33:25,240 --> 02:33:26,880
Speaker 2: just caught this, but I didn't. Actually this is like

2806
02:33:26,920 --> 02:33:28,720
Speaker 2: while I was on vacation, I had heard that he

2807
02:33:28,800 --> 02:33:31,160
Speaker 2: expressed a belief that the twenty twenty election was stolen

2808
02:33:31,160 --> 02:33:31,560
Speaker 2: from Trump.

2809
02:33:31,640 --> 02:33:32,720
Speaker 24: Yeah, that's see.

2810
02:33:32,720 --> 02:33:34,720
Speaker 2: Do we know if that's accurate? Okay, Okay, so he

2811
02:33:34,760 --> 02:33:35,600
Speaker 2: does seem that's been.

2812
02:33:35,600 --> 02:33:39,160
Speaker 4: Reported by the NBC that that he told investigators that

2813
02:33:39,240 --> 02:33:44,320
Speaker 4: he believed in like twenty twenty election conspiracy theories. Okay,

2814
02:33:44,360 --> 02:33:45,760
Speaker 4: the ones that were spread by Trump.

2815
02:33:46,040 --> 02:33:47,920
Speaker 2: So, I mean it seems like, from what we have,

2816
02:33:48,040 --> 02:33:51,440
Speaker 2: one of the more predictable ones. And like it's not

2817
02:33:51,840 --> 02:33:54,600
Speaker 2: if this is like a weird right wing you know, Bronie.

2818
02:33:54,600 --> 02:33:57,600
Speaker 2: This is not the first time right wing Bronie has

2819
02:33:57,680 --> 02:33:58,640
Speaker 2: done something violent.

2820
02:33:58,720 --> 02:34:01,400
Speaker 4: He doesn't seem super politic in my opinion, like none

2821
02:34:01,440 --> 02:34:06,279
Speaker 4: of his owne activity points towards a deep interest in politics.

2822
02:34:07,160 --> 02:34:09,480
Speaker 2: No, but if he said he thought the election was stolen,

2823
02:34:09,560 --> 02:34:12,680
Speaker 2: then that makes sense as being a contributing fact.

2824
02:34:12,720 --> 02:34:17,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, a factor perhaps, but not a huge like online

2825
02:34:17,840 --> 02:34:20,760
Speaker 4: presence that revolves around politics. Like a lot of people

2826
02:34:20,760 --> 02:34:23,480
Speaker 4: who aren't super into politics maybe thought the election was

2827
02:34:23,480 --> 02:34:24,760
Speaker 4: like stolen or like rigged.

2828
02:34:24,920 --> 02:34:27,560
Speaker 2: I mean, as we try to point out periodically, the

2829
02:34:27,640 --> 02:34:30,000
Speaker 2: vast majority of people who will carry out a shooting

2830
02:34:30,160 --> 02:34:33,600
Speaker 2: or other act of mass public violence in the US

2831
02:34:34,000 --> 02:34:36,000
Speaker 2: are going to have more in common with other people

2832
02:34:36,040 --> 02:34:40,080
Speaker 2: who do that than anyone specifically, just in political terms

2833
02:34:40,240 --> 02:34:43,200
Speaker 2: for the most part, because most of them are you know,

2834
02:34:43,280 --> 02:34:46,400
Speaker 2: there's their shooter stands there, they're they're that sort of thing,

2835
02:34:46,560 --> 02:34:49,279
Speaker 2: like this is their special interest bombings or whatever.

2836
02:34:49,560 --> 02:34:51,039
Speaker 4: He does seem to have, Like it's a lot of

2837
02:34:51,080 --> 02:34:53,640
Speaker 4: special interests, right. It used to be my little ponies,

2838
02:34:54,160 --> 02:34:56,720
Speaker 4: then it became bomb making that just seemed to be

2839
02:34:56,800 --> 02:34:59,680
Speaker 4: a special interest of his for like three or four years.

2840
02:34:59,879 --> 02:35:01,879
Speaker 4: Was just like the practice of bomb making. This is

2841
02:35:01,920 --> 02:35:04,080
Speaker 4: just just something he got like into, And I think

2842
02:35:04,120 --> 02:35:07,040
Speaker 4: that's more of a motivating force and like a specific

2843
02:35:07,240 --> 02:35:09,920
Speaker 4: partisan political motivation. And I think it's really funny, like

2844
02:35:09,920 --> 02:35:14,400
Speaker 4: reflecting on a statement that that that law enforcement leaked

2845
02:35:14,520 --> 02:35:17,039
Speaker 4: last week saying that he had like anarchist like leanings,

2846
02:35:17,040 --> 02:35:19,720
Speaker 4: which is very very amusing now in light of in

2847
02:35:19,760 --> 02:35:21,560
Speaker 4: light of all of that, for a long.

2848
02:35:21,400 --> 02:35:24,920
Speaker 25: Time, they have used anarchism to mean like a predilection

2849
02:35:25,040 --> 02:35:26,400
Speaker 25: for violence or chaos.

2850
02:35:26,720 --> 02:35:30,800
Speaker 2: Doesn't less like the government, right, Like yeah, yeah, part

2851
02:35:30,800 --> 02:35:32,400
Speaker 2: of this is just the way people tend to use

2852
02:35:32,440 --> 02:35:34,840
Speaker 2: the term anarchism. When I was doing my research for

2853
02:35:34,920 --> 02:35:38,080
Speaker 2: like the nuclear Doomstate device episodes, there's a bunch of

2854
02:35:38,120 --> 02:35:40,280
Speaker 2: otherwise great pieces that are like and then in the

2855
02:35:40,520 --> 02:35:43,080
Speaker 2: in the wake of a global nuclear war, society will

2856
02:35:43,120 --> 02:35:46,480
Speaker 2: collapse and all that will be left is anarchy. It's like, guys, like,

2857
02:35:46,560 --> 02:35:48,800
Speaker 2: it's not anarchy. That's that's going to be the problem

2858
02:35:48,879 --> 02:35:52,480
Speaker 2: that like, like you realize that the cause of a

2859
02:35:52,560 --> 02:35:58,039
Speaker 2: nuclear war is like, yeah, all of this, Yeah, it's

2860
02:35:58,200 --> 02:36:01,920
Speaker 2: it is not an anarchy as opposed to nuclear war.

2861
02:36:01,959 --> 02:36:06,840
Speaker 2: I'm worried about, for example, Yeah, yeah, then yeah, I'm

2862
02:36:06,879 --> 02:36:11,600
Speaker 2: worried about like democracy, fucking authoritarianism. I'm worried about all

2863
02:36:11,600 --> 02:36:14,360
Speaker 2: of those things. Anarchists would never have built the nuclear

2864
02:36:14,400 --> 02:36:15,279
Speaker 2: doom sdat of fights.

2865
02:36:15,840 --> 02:36:17,280
Speaker 24: Yeah. Yeah.

2866
02:36:17,320 --> 02:36:20,560
Speaker 25: It's why I used left libertarian sometimes in my academic writing,

2867
02:36:20,600 --> 02:36:24,120
Speaker 25: because it was just the term. It's just not comprehensible,

2868
02:36:24,240 --> 02:36:27,920
Speaker 25: especially someone coming having been raised on US media.

2869
02:36:27,560 --> 02:36:29,720
Speaker 2: And in the wake of a global nuclear war, you'll

2870
02:36:29,760 --> 02:36:32,119
Speaker 2: be lucky to get some anarchy because it probably means

2871
02:36:32,120 --> 02:36:34,520
Speaker 2: someone's found some food and it's cooking it for you.

2872
02:36:34,879 --> 02:36:37,800
Speaker 25: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Food no bombs on like food off.

2873
02:36:37,840 --> 02:36:40,800
Speaker 25: They've rebranded, but that's still going food common.

2874
02:36:41,000 --> 02:36:45,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, bomb is actually done with bombs.

2875
02:36:48,680 --> 02:36:49,240
Speaker 13: We did it.

2876
02:36:49,320 --> 02:36:49,640
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2877
02:36:51,200 --> 02:36:55,240
Speaker 5: Food One other update. I'll squeeze in here quick.

2878
02:36:55,240 --> 02:36:55,800
Speaker 2: It's short.

2879
02:36:55,879 --> 02:36:56,080
Speaker 12: Yeah.

2880
02:36:56,160 --> 02:36:58,879
Speaker 4: Last week, the Supreme Court ruled that Texas can use

2881
02:36:58,920 --> 02:37:02,480
Speaker 4: its newly on congressional map in the upcoming twenty twenty

2882
02:37:02,520 --> 02:37:05,400
Speaker 4: six midterms, likely adding five Republican seats.

2883
02:37:06,240 --> 02:37:07,760
Speaker 5: The lower court order, which.

2884
02:37:07,600 --> 02:37:10,840
Speaker 4: Found the new map was racially jerry mannered intentionally, has

2885
02:37:10,879 --> 02:37:15,440
Speaker 4: been stayed indefinitely as the Supreme Court prepares to consider

2886
02:37:15,520 --> 02:37:19,640
Speaker 4: whether to overturn the lower court's ruling entirely, a process

2887
02:37:19,640 --> 02:37:22,960
Speaker 4: which could take months go well into the midterm cycle.

2888
02:37:23,360 --> 02:37:26,360
Speaker 4: So the Supreme Court is authorized the use of that

2889
02:37:26,440 --> 02:37:28,640
Speaker 4: new map for this next election.

2890
02:37:29,560 --> 02:37:33,360
Speaker 25: Talking of fan fiction and covers of things, here is

2891
02:37:33,760 --> 02:37:36,879
Speaker 25: a song that was originally the worst song by the

2892
02:37:36,879 --> 02:37:39,040
Speaker 25: Clash and now it's about tariffs.

2893
02:37:43,720 --> 02:37:53,880
Speaker 27: Jazz right jazz Bo Sorry, Locking jazz Bomb, Locking jazz Bob.

2894
02:37:55,600 --> 02:37:57,640
Speaker 4: I think the cover is of a similar quality as

2895
02:37:57,680 --> 02:38:02,240
Speaker 4: the alleged Bombers fan art in my opinion, Dear God,

2896
02:38:02,560 --> 02:38:04,680
Speaker 4: there's a lot of good twilight sparkle stuff that he

2897
02:38:05,280 --> 02:38:05,680
Speaker 4: was draw in.

2898
02:38:05,720 --> 02:38:09,400
Speaker 5: Come sorry, So all right.

2899
02:38:09,560 --> 02:38:15,840
Speaker 13: China is technically once again buying American soybeans. Is part

2900
02:38:15,879 --> 02:38:19,200
Speaker 13: of the sort of giant trade deal that Chi Jinping

2901
02:38:19,400 --> 02:38:24,400
Speaker 13: and Trump negotiated, but come it is not buying soybeans

2902
02:38:24,400 --> 02:38:25,960
Speaker 13: at the rate that the White House said it would

2903
02:38:25,959 --> 02:38:27,760
Speaker 13: in the fact sheet that was released by the White

2904
02:38:27,760 --> 02:38:31,720
Speaker 13: House about the negotiations. This is a huge problem because

2905
02:38:32,600 --> 02:38:36,440
Speaker 13: farmers are still not being able to sell enough soybeans

2906
02:38:36,480 --> 02:38:40,800
Speaker 13: to not get completely fucked, and the White House is

2907
02:38:40,800 --> 02:38:42,560
Speaker 13: now putting out a bunch of statements saying, oh no,

2908
02:38:42,640 --> 02:38:44,680
Speaker 13: we actually screwed up the fact sheet. They said that

2909
02:38:44,720 --> 02:38:47,360
Speaker 13: they would buy the soybeans not before the end of

2910
02:38:47,400 --> 02:38:49,120
Speaker 13: the year, before they at the end of like the

2911
02:38:49,160 --> 02:38:50,039
Speaker 13: growing season.

2912
02:38:50,120 --> 02:38:51,760
Speaker 24: That's good, that's good.

2913
02:38:52,400 --> 02:38:56,360
Speaker 13: Yeah. So and his other solution to this has been

2914
02:38:57,000 --> 02:39:01,080
Speaker 13: a twelve billion dollar farmer bail which is funny because

2915
02:39:01,120 --> 02:39:03,280
Speaker 13: he did a twelve billion dollar farm bailout in his

2916
02:39:03,400 --> 02:39:06,200
Speaker 13: first term when exactly the same thing happened and it

2917
02:39:06,320 --> 02:39:07,160
Speaker 13: didn't really do anything.

2918
02:39:07,240 --> 02:39:09,480
Speaker 4: Well, at least we're not bailing out let's say Argentina.

2919
02:39:09,720 --> 02:39:12,000
Speaker 24: Funny example, Garston, what makes you choose that one?

2920
02:39:12,320 --> 02:39:13,840
Speaker 13: Oh god? Yeah.

2921
02:39:13,879 --> 02:39:14,000
Speaker 9: So.

2922
02:39:14,480 --> 02:39:17,520
Speaker 13: The issue with this farmer's bailout is, and this is

2923
02:39:17,560 --> 02:39:20,760
Speaker 13: something that farmers have been saying through all of the

2924
02:39:20,840 --> 02:39:23,920
Speaker 13: trade press, any regular press. They can get access to,

2925
02:39:24,000 --> 02:39:28,640
Speaker 13: every local media outlet. Every single farmer who anyone has

2926
02:39:28,680 --> 02:39:31,520
Speaker 13: interviewed has gone, we don't want to bail out. We

2927
02:39:31,560 --> 02:39:34,640
Speaker 13: want to be able to sell our blasted soybeans, and

2928
02:39:34,680 --> 02:39:37,760
Speaker 13: they still can't. And this is, you know, a becoming

2929
02:39:37,840 --> 02:39:41,640
Speaker 13: a real problem for this administration that even after their

2930
02:39:41,720 --> 02:39:43,879
Speaker 13: giant negotiations to get tried out of by soybeans, they

2931
02:39:43,879 --> 02:39:46,959
Speaker 13: still can't do it. And farmers are continuing to be

2932
02:39:47,560 --> 02:39:51,119
Speaker 13: very very pissed off about this. Where are my beans? Yeah,

2933
02:39:51,400 --> 02:39:54,880
Speaker 13: they're sitting in the silos, They're still there. They can't

2934
02:39:54,879 --> 02:39:55,360
Speaker 13: sell them.

2935
02:39:55,400 --> 02:39:57,119
Speaker 25: How am I going to keep up my soy consumption

2936
02:39:57,560 --> 02:39:59,880
Speaker 25: and going to be for us to become a known

2937
02:40:00,120 --> 02:40:02,360
Speaker 25: the vegan Ocean era some other kind of boy, I guess.

2938
02:40:02,800 --> 02:40:04,480
Speaker 13: Yeah, Well, we'll just have to get it from Brazil.

2939
02:40:04,520 --> 02:40:05,960
Speaker 5: Ands that Brazil mentioned.

2940
02:40:06,000 --> 02:40:08,360
Speaker 2: Everyone cheer, Hey, they're doing good these days.

2941
02:40:09,360 --> 02:40:12,480
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, hasn't there been some Bolsonnaro news recently?

2942
02:40:12,600 --> 02:40:13,119
Speaker 5: I feel like.

2943
02:40:13,120 --> 02:40:15,200
Speaker 2: There has been. Let's roll to ads and then we'll

2944
02:40:15,240 --> 02:40:15,840
Speaker 2: talk about it.

2945
02:40:16,040 --> 02:40:23,040
Speaker 13: Okay, this has been ur talk.

2946
02:40:30,720 --> 02:40:33,680
Speaker 2: We're back, and you know who's not free to listen

2947
02:40:33,720 --> 02:40:39,760
Speaker 2: to podcasts? Hear Bolsonnaro. We can hope after trying to

2948
02:40:39,879 --> 02:40:43,120
Speaker 2: cut off his ankle monitor. He has been taken into

2949
02:40:43,160 --> 02:40:47,800
Speaker 2: custody for attempting or probably trying to escape. Trump had

2950
02:40:47,800 --> 02:40:52,280
Speaker 2: made comments about it, expecting to see him soon. Yeah,

2951
02:40:52,360 --> 02:40:54,160
Speaker 2: I don't think. I think he's going to die in prison.

2952
02:40:54,800 --> 02:40:57,080
Speaker 2: He's not doing well. I will say one thing we

2953
02:40:57,160 --> 02:40:59,439
Speaker 2: got to do. You know, back when he got stabbed,

2954
02:40:59,640 --> 02:41:02,440
Speaker 2: I think everyone's opinion on it was like, oh, fuck,

2955
02:41:02,480 --> 02:41:04,760
Speaker 2: you've just you know, you've made him a martyr. You

2956
02:41:04,840 --> 02:41:07,200
Speaker 2: got to look cool and seem like a bad ass.

2957
02:41:07,280 --> 02:41:09,039
Speaker 2: This has done nothing but empower him.

2958
02:41:09,200 --> 02:41:09,959
Speaker 24: Yeah, no, it cares.

2959
02:41:10,120 --> 02:41:10,160
Speaker 7: No.

2960
02:41:10,320 --> 02:41:13,360
Speaker 2: Actually that stab did a lot of damage, Like that

2961
02:41:13,560 --> 02:41:15,480
Speaker 2: ruined his life, low key.

2962
02:41:15,440 --> 02:41:15,520
Speaker 27: Ye.

2963
02:41:15,800 --> 02:41:18,720
Speaker 2: So thoughts and prayers to that guy wherever he is.

2964
02:41:19,160 --> 02:41:21,480
Speaker 2: You know, we just didn't realize the level of game

2965
02:41:21,520 --> 02:41:22,560
Speaker 2: that you had, my man.

2966
02:41:23,040 --> 02:41:24,959
Speaker 4: No, I mean it's it's it's tough. I mean we

2967
02:41:25,080 --> 02:41:27,520
Speaker 4: used to have the two like of the world sickest men,

2968
02:41:27,920 --> 02:41:30,400
Speaker 4: Bolsonaro and Stephen Crowder just fighting it out to see

2969
02:41:30,400 --> 02:41:31,879
Speaker 4: who would stay sicker for a long But.

2970
02:41:32,040 --> 02:41:34,160
Speaker 24: Jordan Peterson that seems like erasia.

2971
02:41:34,600 --> 02:41:38,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's taking the spot because he's still vanished from

2972
02:41:38,520 --> 02:41:40,320
Speaker 4: the Daily Wire because of his like.

2973
02:41:40,560 --> 02:41:43,080
Speaker 2: Bizarre His daughter says he's basically dead.

2974
02:41:43,280 --> 02:41:46,400
Speaker 25: Yeah, he's like patient zero for CWD and humans or something.

2975
02:41:46,480 --> 02:41:50,200
Speaker 4: Right, Like the Daily Wire still is acting like Peterson's

2976
02:41:50,280 --> 02:41:51,119
Speaker 4: is like still a person.

2977
02:41:51,440 --> 02:41:55,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it turns out Cold Turkey quitting Benzos via a

2978
02:41:55,520 --> 02:41:58,039
Speaker 2: fucking coma in Russia is a bad call.

2979
02:41:58,600 --> 02:42:01,640
Speaker 4: Speaking of Crowder, I did watch the two hours Stephen

2980
02:42:01,680 --> 02:42:05,400
Speaker 4: Crowder Nick Fuente's interview this week. Oh god, and it

2981
02:42:05,560 --> 02:42:08,000
Speaker 4: was really uncomfortable.

2982
02:42:08,280 --> 02:42:10,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll bet I can imagine.

2983
02:42:10,760 --> 02:42:12,959
Speaker 5: They were just like jerking each other off for two hours.

2984
02:42:13,240 --> 02:42:15,720
Speaker 4: Nick was trying to be nice and like not act

2985
02:42:15,840 --> 02:42:19,520
Speaker 4: like Steven's this like like totally irrelevant like boomer, and

2986
02:42:19,560 --> 02:42:22,480
Speaker 4: Stephen was trying to make Nick think he was cool,

2987
02:42:22,520 --> 02:42:24,760
Speaker 4: and it was so painful to watch.

2988
02:42:24,480 --> 02:42:25,400
Speaker 5: The entire time.

2989
02:42:25,959 --> 02:42:27,960
Speaker 13: Sat Yeah, it was.

2990
02:42:28,120 --> 02:42:30,600
Speaker 4: It was bad. There was nothing else notable from that.

2991
02:42:31,160 --> 02:42:34,440
Speaker 4: I guess let's actually move to some notable notable stories

2992
02:42:34,480 --> 02:42:35,680
Speaker 4: to close this episode.

2993
02:42:36,280 --> 02:42:38,879
Speaker 25: Yeah, so I want to talk about the case of

2994
02:42:38,920 --> 02:42:43,160
Speaker 25: Faustino Pablo Pablo. A US District court in El Paso,

2995
02:42:43,280 --> 02:42:47,000
Speaker 25: Texas has grown too Mister Pablo Pablo a tentative restraining

2996
02:42:47,120 --> 02:42:50,400
Speaker 25: order directing the government to return him to the United

2997
02:42:50,440 --> 02:42:53,200
Speaker 25: States by the twelfth of this month, which will be

2998
02:42:53,200 --> 02:42:53,959
Speaker 25: the day that you were.

2999
02:42:53,879 --> 02:42:58,199
Speaker 24: Hearing this episode. Mister Pablo Pablo enter the USA in twenty.

3000
02:42:57,920 --> 02:43:01,680
Speaker 25: Twelve and was found removal by However, that judge granted

3001
02:43:01,680 --> 02:43:05,080
Speaker 25: his application for withholding of removal under the Convention against

3002
02:43:05,200 --> 02:43:09,080
Speaker 25: Torture because he would likely be tortured if he was

3003
02:43:09,160 --> 02:43:12,640
Speaker 25: returned to Guatemala, which is where he's from. In theory,

3004
02:43:12,920 --> 02:43:16,240
Speaker 25: he was removable therefore to a place where he would

3005
02:43:16,240 --> 02:43:19,800
Speaker 25: not likely be tortured. Right, this is what we've seen

3006
02:43:19,840 --> 02:43:22,760
Speaker 25: the US government doing more and more in the last year. Really,

3007
02:43:23,600 --> 02:43:26,080
Speaker 25: he spent more than a decade. He moved to California,

3008
02:43:26,120 --> 02:43:29,039
Speaker 25: attended his ICE check ins until he was detained at

3009
02:43:29,040 --> 02:43:31,760
Speaker 25: an ICE check in on the fifth of November. Mister

3010
02:43:31,800 --> 02:43:35,320
Speaker 25: Pablo Pablo's lawyer filed a habeas petition and asked the

3011
02:43:35,400 --> 02:43:38,160
Speaker 25: court to enjoin ICE from removing him from the Western

3012
02:43:38,200 --> 02:43:40,720
Speaker 25: District of Texas, which is where they took him on

3013
02:43:40,760 --> 02:43:43,680
Speaker 25: the seventeenth of November. Right, so he was detained on

3014
02:43:43,720 --> 02:43:47,039
Speaker 25: the fifth. People who listened to my immigration series a

3015
02:43:47,040 --> 02:43:48,800
Speaker 25: couple of weeks ago will be familiar with this. Right,

3016
02:43:48,800 --> 02:43:52,200
Speaker 25: people were detained in La ferried all around California and

3017
02:43:52,240 --> 02:43:53,199
Speaker 25: then sent to Texas.

3018
02:43:53,200 --> 02:43:54,400
Speaker 24: This is what happened in his case.

3019
02:43:55,040 --> 02:43:56,520
Speaker 25: He wouldn't have been sent to the same place for

3020
02:43:56,560 --> 02:43:58,680
Speaker 25: people of my serious work, because that's for family detention.

3021
02:43:59,400 --> 02:44:01,760
Speaker 25: By the time the court ordered the government not to

3022
02:44:01,800 --> 02:44:05,400
Speaker 25: remove him, they had already sent him back to Guatemala,

3023
02:44:05,920 --> 02:44:07,840
Speaker 25: just to cover There is one country in the world

3024
02:44:07,879 --> 02:44:10,800
Speaker 25: that he has with holding of removal to because he

3025
02:44:10,840 --> 02:44:13,240
Speaker 25: will be tortured there most likely, and that is where

3026
02:44:13,280 --> 02:44:16,640
Speaker 25: they sent him. The government conceded that they had made

3027
02:44:16,680 --> 02:44:19,480
Speaker 25: a mistake and said they quote tentatively scheduled a flight

3028
02:44:19,520 --> 02:44:22,640
Speaker 25: for the fourth of December. He did not take that flight.

3029
02:44:23,240 --> 02:44:25,560
Speaker 25: As far as we know, he is dolling Gatemalae. He's

3030
02:44:25,600 --> 02:44:28,080
Speaker 25: in hiding and the court has ordered that the government

3031
02:44:28,160 --> 02:44:31,080
Speaker 25: facilitate his return by the twelfth of this month, so

3032
02:44:31,360 --> 02:44:33,640
Speaker 25: we'll probably update you on that in next week's ed.

3033
02:44:34,400 --> 02:44:37,640
Speaker 4: I'm going to talk about an expansion of social media monitoring,

3034
02:44:37,879 --> 02:44:41,360
Speaker 4: which we've already seen for visa applicants, but now expanding

3035
02:44:41,400 --> 02:44:44,680
Speaker 4: out to tourists as well. Customs of Border Protection and

3036
02:44:45,000 --> 02:44:48,480
Speaker 4: DHS have posted a sixty day notice for a proposal

3037
02:44:48,600 --> 02:44:54,000
Speaker 4: to revise the electronics system for travel Authorization Application, which

3038
02:44:54,040 --> 02:44:57,320
Speaker 4: is a waiver that some foreign tourists can use to

3039
02:44:57,440 --> 02:45:03,600
Speaker 4: avoid getting a tourist visa. The proposal is to add

3040
02:45:03,760 --> 02:45:09,039
Speaker 4: mandatory social media collection for all foreign tourists using the

3041
02:45:09,440 --> 02:45:14,320
Speaker 4: ESTA visa waiver. This proposal would require that applicants provide

3042
02:45:14,360 --> 02:45:18,280
Speaker 4: the social media information from the past five years, citing

3043
02:45:18,320 --> 02:45:22,320
Speaker 4: a January Executive order quote protecting the United States from

3044
02:45:22,440 --> 02:45:27,120
Speaker 4: foreign terrorists and other national security and public safety threats unquote.

3045
02:45:27,520 --> 02:45:29,560
Speaker 4: This would match the sort of social media monitoring we've

3046
02:45:29,560 --> 02:45:34,440
Speaker 4: seen applied to some visa applicants and immigrants, just now

3047
02:45:34,480 --> 02:45:39,560
Speaker 4: extending out to tourists using the ESTA application, and to

3048
02:45:39,640 --> 02:45:44,560
Speaker 4: comply with this January Executive order. CBP is also planning

3049
02:45:44,600 --> 02:45:49,440
Speaker 4: to add quote several high value data fields to the

3050
02:45:49,800 --> 02:45:56,320
Speaker 4: ESTA application when feasible unquote. This would include quote telephone

3051
02:45:56,360 --> 02:45:59,080
Speaker 4: numbers used in the last five years, email address is

3052
02:45:59,120 --> 02:46:02,800
Speaker 4: used in the last ten year, IP addresses, and metadata

3053
02:46:02,800 --> 02:46:08,440
Speaker 4: from electronically submitted photos. Family member names, parents, spouse, siblings, children,

3054
02:46:08,840 --> 02:46:12,640
Speaker 4: family telephone numbers used in the last five years, family

3055
02:46:12,680 --> 02:46:16,680
Speaker 4: member dates of birth, family member places of birth, family

3056
02:46:16,680 --> 02:46:23,520
Speaker 4: member residences, biometric face, fingerprint, DNA and IRIS, business telephone

3057
02:46:23,600 --> 02:46:26,760
Speaker 4: numbers used in the last five years and business email

3058
02:46:26,800 --> 02:46:30,039
Speaker 4: addresses used in the last ten years unquote.

3059
02:46:30,400 --> 02:46:33,400
Speaker 25: Yeah, this is a wild amount of data. I mean

3060
02:46:33,640 --> 02:46:35,720
Speaker 25: they can flash some of this like really quickly again

3061
02:46:35,760 --> 02:46:39,160
Speaker 25: against like quote unquote watch lists, right, Yeah, but some

3062
02:46:39,240 --> 02:46:42,920
Speaker 25: of this A like to gather this data to gather

3063
02:46:42,959 --> 02:46:46,360
Speaker 25: biometric data, that's not possible with like you say, you're

3064
02:46:46,360 --> 02:46:49,039
Speaker 25: applying on your cell phone or your your home computer, right,

3065
02:46:49,120 --> 02:46:51,440
Speaker 25: so this might require an appointment.

3066
02:46:51,720 --> 02:46:54,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, for some of the fingerprint stuff. Part of the

3067
02:46:54,360 --> 02:46:58,640
Speaker 4: proposal is also requiring selfie be submitted with this application,

3068
02:46:59,160 --> 02:47:02,240
Speaker 4: separate from what iver is on the ID that is

3069
02:47:02,280 --> 02:47:05,120
Speaker 4: being used, and so they can extract some like facial

3070
02:47:05,160 --> 02:47:08,080
Speaker 4: biometrics from that. Yeah, but they can also they can

3071
02:47:08,080 --> 02:47:10,520
Speaker 4: also collect that stuff like at the airport reports of entry.

3072
02:47:10,560 --> 02:47:13,240
Speaker 4: They have fingerprint scanners now at a lot of these

3073
02:47:13,320 --> 02:47:14,560
Speaker 4: like entry kiosks.

3074
02:47:14,800 --> 02:47:15,000
Speaker 9: Yeah.

3075
02:47:15,080 --> 02:47:18,360
Speaker 25: Yeah, the selfie isn't just a selfie, it's what's called

3076
02:47:18,360 --> 02:47:21,920
Speaker 25: a facial liveness scan, which is what we've spoken about

3077
02:47:21,959 --> 02:47:25,360
Speaker 25: before with CBP one right that like notoriously was very

3078
02:47:25,400 --> 02:47:28,520
Speaker 25: poor at capturing black faces. Generally, you sort of have

3079
02:47:28,600 --> 02:47:31,200
Speaker 25: to like move the phone around your face to check

3080
02:47:31,240 --> 02:47:33,280
Speaker 25: that It's like, it's not me holding up a life

3081
02:47:33,280 --> 02:47:36,080
Speaker 25: sized copy of Garrison, it's actually Garrison.

3082
02:47:35,959 --> 02:47:37,240
Speaker 5: A three D Garrison.

3083
02:47:37,360 --> 02:47:41,080
Speaker 25: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, the Garrison mannequin that we all

3084
02:47:41,080 --> 02:47:42,200
Speaker 25: got for Christmas last year.

3085
02:47:42,240 --> 02:47:43,600
Speaker 4: Can you can excuse that one to me?

3086
02:47:44,080 --> 02:47:46,240
Speaker 24: Sorry, it's not legal in New York.

3087
02:47:46,840 --> 02:47:49,720
Speaker 25: Yeah, this will make it a lot harder for people

3088
02:47:49,760 --> 02:47:53,240
Speaker 25: to apply forest divisas. It's going to create a massive,

3089
02:47:53,840 --> 02:48:00,160
Speaker 25: like dragnet of data for people applying forest visas. Yes,

3090
02:48:00,160 --> 02:48:05,560
Speaker 25: seeing that kind of is the goal already, right, So,

3091
02:48:05,640 --> 02:48:08,200
Speaker 25: like if you live in these countries, you don't always

3092
02:48:08,280 --> 02:48:10,240
Speaker 25: qualify for an esther. There are certain things you could

3093
02:48:10,240 --> 02:48:12,360
Speaker 25: have done, certain countries you could have been to, certain

3094
02:48:13,120 --> 02:48:16,160
Speaker 25: like if you have a criminal record, et cetera, where

3095
02:48:16,200 --> 02:48:18,000
Speaker 25: there you wouldn't be able to get an esther. So

3096
02:48:18,280 --> 02:48:20,560
Speaker 25: this is kind of already a something of a like

3097
02:48:20,600 --> 02:48:25,560
Speaker 25: a pre vetted group and countries who from which systems

3098
02:48:25,600 --> 02:48:26,480
Speaker 25: can apply for esters?

3099
02:48:26,560 --> 02:48:29,840
Speaker 24: Is that in itself? It's like a tea, right, Not

3100
02:48:29,920 --> 02:48:31,600
Speaker 24: everyone in the world can apply for an esther.

3101
02:48:32,440 --> 02:48:37,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's already a semi exclusive waiver with like a

3102
02:48:37,160 --> 02:48:38,120
Speaker 4: cost burden as well.

3103
02:48:38,680 --> 02:48:44,280
Speaker 25: Yes, yeah, yeah, it creates a massive data data mind

3104
02:48:44,320 --> 02:48:46,920
Speaker 25: which I'm guessing might be what they what they're going for.

3105
02:48:47,400 --> 02:48:49,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, just the normalization of this sort of

3106
02:48:49,320 --> 02:48:54,240
Speaker 4: like social media scetting to identify, you know, undesirable political

3107
02:48:54,240 --> 02:48:58,240
Speaker 4: beliefs that Mark Rubio in the Department in the Department

3108
02:48:58,240 --> 02:49:01,680
Speaker 4: of State or DHS seems is like a national security threat.

3109
02:49:02,160 --> 02:49:02,360
Speaker 7: Yeah.

3110
02:49:02,680 --> 02:49:05,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I also have kind of my fringe fears that

3111
02:49:05,680 --> 02:49:12,680
Speaker 2: this will be used to train but yeah, we'll say, yeah,

3112
02:49:12,680 --> 02:49:16,160
Speaker 2: how is this not going to be catastrophic for any

3113
02:49:16,280 --> 02:49:22,400
Speaker 2: business that relies on tourism, any state that relies on tourism, Like.

3114
02:49:21,560 --> 02:49:23,359
Speaker 24: Like yeah, Florida.

3115
02:49:23,800 --> 02:49:26,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that's not the top risk, but like

3116
02:49:27,280 --> 02:49:30,720
Speaker 2: it just seems again they're they're they're going out of

3117
02:49:30,760 --> 02:49:34,359
Speaker 2: their way to fuck over every single demographic in the country,

3118
02:49:35,400 --> 02:49:36,800
Speaker 2: which I don't think is going to work out.

3119
02:49:36,640 --> 02:49:37,960
Speaker 5: For them in the long term.

3120
02:49:38,640 --> 02:49:41,760
Speaker 25: Yeah, it's a uh, this is yeah, this is a

3121
02:49:41,800 --> 02:49:43,880
Speaker 25: weird one for me because it's the Yeah, the economic

3122
02:49:44,440 --> 02:49:45,800
Speaker 25: cost is so obvious.

3123
02:49:46,200 --> 02:49:48,800
Speaker 2: It's a it's a catastrophe, And there's a part of

3124
02:49:48,879 --> 02:49:50,920
Speaker 2: me that's like, maybe this is a good thing, just

3125
02:49:51,080 --> 02:49:54,640
Speaker 2: because it's part of like, right, we've always known and

3126
02:49:54,680 --> 02:49:57,359
Speaker 2: have been trying to say for years every single aspect,

3127
02:49:57,440 --> 02:50:00,080
Speaker 2: like they these people are bad for everybody. There's like

3128
02:50:00,080 --> 02:50:02,480
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty people in the country who benefit

3129
02:50:02,520 --> 02:50:06,240
Speaker 2: from the policies that like the most extreme parts of

3130
02:50:06,240 --> 02:50:09,800
Speaker 2: the right wants to push, and everyone else is going

3131
02:50:09,840 --> 02:50:12,280
Speaker 2: to be completely fucked over by it, and we might

3132
02:50:12,320 --> 02:50:15,400
Speaker 2: as well just take the mask off. And maybe that's

3133
02:50:15,440 --> 02:50:17,280
Speaker 2: some of what we're seeing in the collapse of Trump's

3134
02:50:17,360 --> 02:50:19,920
Speaker 2: approval is people realizing, like, oh my god, these guys

3135
02:50:19,959 --> 02:50:23,960
Speaker 2: really just want to destroy everything good about life like that.

3136
02:50:23,959 --> 02:50:25,879
Speaker 2: That is conservatism in a nutshell.

3137
02:50:25,959 --> 02:50:27,240
Speaker 5: We hate life and ourselves.

3138
02:50:27,640 --> 02:50:30,560
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, well yeah, that's that was the Democratic Party

3139
02:50:30,600 --> 02:50:31,800
Speaker 2: in that symptoms garrison.

3140
02:50:31,879 --> 02:50:36,320
Speaker 25: But we want what's worse for everybody there that's yes, yeah,

3141
02:50:37,160 --> 02:50:40,200
Speaker 25: you got it. Yeah yeah, talking of worse for everybody.

3142
02:50:40,320 --> 02:50:43,720
Speaker 25: Do we want to talk about the National Security Strategy

3143
02:50:43,760 --> 02:50:46,199
Speaker 25: document that the Trump administration releases.

3144
02:50:45,840 --> 02:50:46,200
Speaker 5: Go for it.

3145
02:50:46,320 --> 02:50:48,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, we should do a dedicated episode about that, but

3146
02:50:48,920 --> 02:50:50,119
Speaker 2: we could talk briefly about it.

3147
02:50:50,160 --> 02:50:51,280
Speaker 4: We have fifteen minutes.

3148
02:50:51,600 --> 02:50:53,480
Speaker 2: That's not you saw fifteen Yeah.

3149
02:50:53,600 --> 02:50:56,160
Speaker 25: I've pulled a lot of quotations from it, and we're

3150
02:50:56,160 --> 02:50:57,760
Speaker 25: not gonna be able to discus sort of the mare.

3151
02:50:57,800 --> 02:51:00,320
Speaker 25: I think we will have to discuss this probably next

3152
02:51:00,440 --> 02:51:04,400
Speaker 25: year when we do the whole episode on it. It

3153
02:51:04,480 --> 02:51:08,039
Speaker 25: is one of the more like especially in terms of

3154
02:51:08,120 --> 02:51:11,160
Speaker 25: like foreign relations, one of the more like sort. This

3155
02:51:11,200 --> 02:51:13,200
Speaker 25: is our ideology, this is our outlook, and these are

3156
02:51:13,240 --> 02:51:16,840
Speaker 25: our goals documents that I've seen from this administration. Right,

3157
02:51:17,600 --> 02:51:20,320
Speaker 25: they talk about how I'll just quote from it here.

3158
02:51:20,360 --> 02:51:22,280
Speaker 25: American strategy since the end of the Cold War have

3159
02:51:22,320 --> 02:51:25,440
Speaker 25: fallen short. They have been laundry lists of wishes or

3160
02:51:25,520 --> 02:51:28,240
Speaker 25: desired end states, and have not clearly defined what we want,

3161
02:51:28,560 --> 02:51:32,240
Speaker 25: instead stated vague platitudes and have often misjudged what we

3162
02:51:32,320 --> 02:51:37,200
Speaker 25: should want. They talk about how they are going to

3163
02:51:37,240 --> 02:51:40,959
Speaker 25: retain soft power. Soft power people now familiar is a

3164
02:51:41,000 --> 02:51:44,640
Speaker 25: theory that Joseph Nye had an international relations It's a

3165
02:51:44,680 --> 02:51:47,480
Speaker 25: power to compel or persuade rather than to force. Right,

3166
02:51:48,080 --> 02:51:51,520
Speaker 25: the United States has been hemorrhaging soft power like someone

3167
02:51:51,560 --> 02:51:54,119
Speaker 25: with their artery cut, like in the last twelve months,

3168
02:51:54,160 --> 02:51:57,720
Speaker 25: like seft power is a fraction of what it was

3169
02:51:57,760 --> 02:51:59,520
Speaker 25: a year ago. I find it very odd to see

3170
02:51:59,560 --> 02:52:02,840
Speaker 25: them even mentioning that, to be honest, when like I mean,

3171
02:52:02,879 --> 02:52:05,800
Speaker 25: they have soft power of your victor orban talking of

3172
02:52:06,040 --> 02:52:10,160
Speaker 25: orban there's this incredible stuff about Europe. Here quote we

3173
02:52:10,200 --> 02:52:12,640
Speaker 25: want to support our allies in preserving the freelom and

3174
02:52:12,680 --> 02:52:17,160
Speaker 25: security of Europe while restoring Europe's civilizational self confidence and

3175
02:52:17,200 --> 02:52:20,120
Speaker 25: Western identity ha riste.

3176
02:52:20,640 --> 02:52:23,480
Speaker 24: Another quote that's good, this is wild.

3177
02:52:23,680 --> 02:52:26,200
Speaker 25: The larger issues facing Europe include the activities of the

3178
02:52:26,240 --> 02:52:30,600
Speaker 25: European Union, other transnational bodies undermine political liberty and sovereignty,

3179
02:52:31,000 --> 02:52:34,480
Speaker 25: migration policies that are transforming the continent and creating strife,

3180
02:52:34,720 --> 02:52:38,560
Speaker 25: censorship of free speech and suppression of political opposition, creatoring

3181
02:52:38,600 --> 02:52:42,879
Speaker 25: birth rates, and the loss of national identities and self confidence.

3182
02:52:43,480 --> 02:52:47,160
Speaker 25: Should present trends continue, the continent will be unrecognizable in

3183
02:52:47,240 --> 02:52:49,760
Speaker 25: twenty years or less, and then a missing skipping of

3184
02:52:49,800 --> 02:52:52,680
Speaker 25: it here. We want Europe to remain European.

3185
02:52:52,879 --> 02:52:55,080
Speaker 4: This just sounds like your average like white nationalists like

3186
02:52:55,080 --> 02:52:55,760
Speaker 4: Twitter posts.

3187
02:52:56,320 --> 02:52:58,959
Speaker 25: Yeah no, yes, it comes from Twitter, right, this is

3188
02:52:59,000 --> 02:52:59,720
Speaker 25: just the Twitter.

3189
02:52:59,480 --> 02:53:03,640
Speaker 4: Replies, like very twitter brained like types of politics.

3190
02:53:04,000 --> 02:53:07,720
Speaker 13: Yeah yeah, this guy has like a Greek statue avatar exactly.

3191
02:53:08,600 --> 02:53:11,800
Speaker 4: I think it's really fun to think of Europe being like,

3192
02:53:12,040 --> 02:53:15,000
Speaker 4: I'm Europe. I have a lot of self confidence issues.

3193
02:53:15,480 --> 02:53:19,560
Speaker 4: I can't really speak up for myself in in in

3194
02:53:19,640 --> 02:53:23,400
Speaker 4: big groups like the European Union, Like come on, what

3195
02:53:23,400 --> 02:53:25,440
Speaker 4: do you mean self confidence to grow up?

3196
02:53:26,240 --> 02:53:27,039
Speaker 24: Yeah, it's wild.

3197
02:53:27,120 --> 02:53:29,480
Speaker 25: They're like, you know, they're they're saying that, like what

3198
02:53:29,640 --> 02:53:33,560
Speaker 25: European people don't have enough, like like what European pride?

3199
02:53:33,760 --> 02:53:37,600
Speaker 4: People don't respect my Western identity Like okay, yeah.

3200
02:53:38,320 --> 02:53:41,080
Speaker 25: Notably, like for instance, the country of France, a country

3201
02:53:41,080 --> 02:53:43,520
Speaker 25: which lacks self confidence and pride in this identity.

3202
02:53:43,600 --> 02:53:45,240
Speaker 24: This is this has been an issue for a long time.

3203
02:53:46,400 --> 02:53:48,360
Speaker 4: It's it's very funny to have this in like a

3204
02:53:48,680 --> 02:53:52,080
Speaker 4: this is like a US foreign policy or national security documentary.

3205
02:53:52,160 --> 02:53:54,720
Speaker 25: Yeah, this is like these are the guiding principles of

3206
02:53:54,720 --> 02:53:56,640
Speaker 25: our foreign policy going forward.

3207
02:53:56,840 --> 02:54:00,240
Speaker 4: And they're like jerking off about like Europe remaining European.

3208
02:54:00,640 --> 02:54:03,960
Speaker 25: Yeah yeah, it's just like shit talking an entire continent.

3209
02:54:04,160 --> 02:54:06,959
Speaker 4: No, America should think Europe is gay and we should

3210
02:54:06,959 --> 02:54:09,280
Speaker 4: stay away from it. That's what our national security party

3211
02:54:09,280 --> 02:54:11,959
Speaker 4: should be is Europe is gay. We don't want to

3212
02:54:11,959 --> 02:54:14,240
Speaker 4: deal with whatever Europe is doing. We're America.

3213
02:54:14,400 --> 02:54:15,520
Speaker 24: Yeah, leave us alone.

3214
02:54:15,680 --> 02:54:18,040
Speaker 2: Yeah that ended really well for us in the theory.

3215
02:54:18,879 --> 02:54:19,119
Speaker 13: Yeah.

3216
02:54:19,400 --> 02:54:22,440
Speaker 25: Well, there's almost like a like a like an early

3217
02:54:22,480 --> 02:54:25,160
Speaker 25: twentieth century vibe to this document. They talk about the

3218
02:54:25,240 --> 02:54:28,039
Speaker 25: Monroe doctrine, Yeah, they do, and they talk about the

3219
02:54:28,040 --> 02:54:31,680
Speaker 25: Trump corrollary to the Monroe doctrine, which they define as quote,

3220
02:54:31,680 --> 02:54:35,080
Speaker 25: we will deny non hemispheric competitors the ability to position

3221
02:54:35,240 --> 02:54:39,440
Speaker 25: forces or other threatening capabilities, or to own or control

3222
02:54:39,480 --> 02:54:44,440
Speaker 25: strategically vital assets in our hemisphere. Which the people aren't

3223
02:54:44,440 --> 02:54:47,160
Speaker 25: familiar with the Monroe doctrine. It's the US sort of

3224
02:54:47,280 --> 02:54:50,920
Speaker 25: has a right and obligation to exercise some control over

3225
02:54:50,959 --> 02:54:54,640
Speaker 25: the outcome to the entire Western hemisphere, like say Venezuela. Yes,

3226
02:54:54,760 --> 02:54:56,480
Speaker 25: that would be one example, Keraton.

3227
02:54:56,560 --> 02:54:59,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, see, it's totally different from Iraq because this is

3228
02:54:59,480 --> 02:55:02,440
Speaker 4: on our ham So it's good intervention actually mm hmm.

3229
02:55:03,000 --> 02:55:03,280
Speaker 7: Yeah.

3230
02:55:03,560 --> 02:55:05,840
Speaker 25: Manifest destiny has given us the right to all of

3231
02:55:05,879 --> 02:55:08,360
Speaker 25: the Americas, and so we can we can intervene in

3232
02:55:08,640 --> 02:55:12,520
Speaker 25: outcomes there. There's a lot about the nation state in here,

3233
02:55:12,560 --> 02:55:15,720
Speaker 25: and like the idea that they quote unquote nation state

3234
02:55:15,959 --> 02:55:21,880
Speaker 25: should prioritize its own interests. I wonder what they're talking

3235
02:55:21,959 --> 02:55:24,240
Speaker 25: about there, because like we have many nations that are

3236
02:55:24,240 --> 02:55:26,560
Speaker 25: exclude different states all around the world, right, like the

3237
02:55:26,680 --> 02:55:31,640
Speaker 25: Kurds being one example, Right, like they are they saying

3238
02:55:31,680 --> 02:55:35,240
Speaker 25: that nations and states should always align, whilst like their

3239
02:55:35,280 --> 02:55:38,560
Speaker 25: special envoyage Syria is saying that he said this week

3240
02:55:38,600 --> 02:55:41,400
Speaker 25: the decentralization has never succeeded in the Middle East, which

3241
02:55:41,440 --> 02:55:44,959
Speaker 25: is a wild statement to be saying in a place

3242
02:55:45,040 --> 02:55:48,000
Speaker 25: where like you can drive in a single day to

3243
02:55:48,040 --> 02:55:51,760
Speaker 25: the sites of three different genocides from northeastern Syria, right,

3244
02:55:51,800 --> 02:55:54,360
Speaker 25: you can see how the place where the Armenian genocide happened,

3245
02:55:54,520 --> 02:55:56,600
Speaker 25: the u CD genocide, and the Anphal Like you can

3246
02:55:56,640 --> 02:55:57,960
Speaker 25: do that driving a day if you don't get hung

3247
02:55:58,080 --> 02:55:58,680
Speaker 25: up at the border.

3248
02:55:59,040 --> 02:56:01,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, honestly before now if we're counting some

3249
02:56:01,640 --> 02:56:06,400
Speaker 2: of what was done against the White Yeah, yeah, that's

3250
02:56:06,440 --> 02:56:09,680
Speaker 2: a little unclear at the moment, but yeah, sure yeah.

3251
02:56:09,800 --> 02:56:11,840
Speaker 25: Like to say that centralization is the only way from

3252
02:56:11,840 --> 02:56:15,400
Speaker 25: the Middle East is a wild statement. So I don't

3253
02:56:15,400 --> 02:56:18,039
Speaker 25: know how some of this pans out. There's also a

3254
02:56:18,280 --> 02:56:22,360
Speaker 25: lot here on border security as national security, right, sure,

3255
02:56:22,440 --> 02:56:25,480
Speaker 25: I'm just going to read one. They use the word

3256
02:56:25,640 --> 02:56:28,800
Speaker 25: nation a lot. Nationalism was a sub field of by PhD.

3257
02:56:28,959 --> 02:56:32,200
Speaker 25: So obviously, like I'm interested in the exact understanding of

3258
02:56:32,280 --> 02:56:35,920
Speaker 25: nation they have here because there are several, but throughout history,

3259
02:56:35,959 --> 02:56:40,400
Speaker 25: sovereign nations prohibited uncontrolled migration a grated citizenship only rarely

3260
02:56:40,440 --> 02:56:44,640
Speaker 25: to foreigners who also had to meet demanding criteria. The

3261
02:56:44,680 --> 02:56:49,080
Speaker 25: West experience over the past decades vindicates this enduring wisdom

3262
02:56:49,400 --> 02:56:52,760
Speaker 25: in country throughout the world, mass migration as strained domestic resources,

3263
02:56:52,879 --> 02:56:57,200
Speaker 25: increased violence out of the crime, weakened social cohesion, distorted

3264
02:56:57,280 --> 02:57:01,360
Speaker 25: labor markets, and undermined national security. The era of mass

3265
02:57:01,400 --> 02:57:05,720
Speaker 25: migration must end. Border security is the primary element of

3266
02:57:05,879 --> 02:57:06,960
Speaker 25: national security.

3267
02:57:07,240 --> 02:57:09,520
Speaker 4: Great, this is the only terrain they have left because

3268
02:57:09,520 --> 02:57:12,720
Speaker 4: they've abandoned class interests and like exploitation. So the only

3269
02:57:12,760 --> 02:57:15,119
Speaker 4: thing they can actually focus this on, and they focus

3270
02:57:15,600 --> 02:57:20,240
Speaker 4: focus the economy on, is through nationalist immigration policies. This

3271
02:57:20,280 --> 02:57:23,160
Speaker 4: is like the last refuge for the right once they're

3272
02:57:23,240 --> 02:57:25,959
Speaker 4: still trying to appeal to some sort of populism but

3273
02:57:26,360 --> 02:57:29,400
Speaker 4: don't actually want to address real class conditions.

3274
02:57:29,480 --> 02:57:31,680
Speaker 25: Yeah, and for a lot of the right, when they

3275
02:57:31,680 --> 02:57:35,120
Speaker 25: talk about nationalism, they are talking about ethno nationalism, right.

3276
02:57:35,280 --> 02:57:38,280
Speaker 25: The people, you know, the people are the nation, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,

3277
02:57:38,320 --> 02:57:42,440
Speaker 25: the vulk like which is not always the bloods nationalism.

3278
02:57:42,480 --> 02:57:45,280
Speaker 25: It's one type of nationalism. It's not all types of nationalism, right, Like.

3279
02:57:45,440 --> 02:57:46,920
Speaker 4: That's the cool thing about the United States, And this

3280
02:57:46,959 --> 02:57:49,959
Speaker 4: is the one country, one of the only countries where

3281
02:57:50,000 --> 02:57:53,680
Speaker 4: this that principle has been like opposed in variy degrees

3282
02:57:53,920 --> 02:57:55,120
Speaker 4: since the country is founding.

3283
02:57:55,320 --> 02:57:58,520
Speaker 25: Yeah, like it's supposed to be the example maybe along

3284
02:57:58,520 --> 02:58:01,280
Speaker 25: with France, right of like subscriptive now where nationalism was

3285
02:58:01,360 --> 02:58:04,400
Speaker 25: not an ethnic quality, it was subscribing to a set

3286
02:58:04,440 --> 02:58:07,720
Speaker 25: of values and belief philosophical idea. Yeah, that does not

3287
02:58:07,920 --> 02:58:11,280
Speaker 25: seem to be the vibe I'm picking up. There's a

3288
02:58:11,560 --> 02:58:15,920
Speaker 25: lot more in this document. They spend a decent part

3289
02:58:15,920 --> 02:58:19,720
Speaker 25: of its ship talking other document, other previous national security strategies. Yea,

3290
02:58:20,320 --> 02:58:22,600
Speaker 25: these are always good for both. But we're going to

3291
02:58:22,720 --> 02:58:26,280
Speaker 25: keep it brief and then off they go. But yeah,

3292
02:58:26,360 --> 02:58:28,480
Speaker 25: I think it's it's worth us maybe doing the whole

3293
02:58:28,480 --> 02:58:31,879
Speaker 25: episode on because I think it's one of the more

3294
02:58:32,280 --> 02:58:36,120
Speaker 25: like coherent statements of believery. Not not a lot of

3295
02:58:36,160 --> 02:58:38,039
Speaker 25: this stuff is new. We knew that's how they thought

3296
02:58:38,040 --> 02:58:40,640
Speaker 25: about immigration. Yeah, you hear them talk about it on

3297
02:58:40,760 --> 02:58:44,600
Speaker 25: Fox on News Max. Like any Stephen Miller like public

3298
02:58:44,600 --> 02:58:46,720
Speaker 25: statement is you know, it's going to talk about talk

3299
02:58:46,760 --> 02:58:51,160
Speaker 25: about how immigration is changing, you know, the economic makeup

3300
02:58:51,200 --> 02:58:53,480
Speaker 25: of the country, and like the core identity of the

3301
02:58:53,480 --> 02:58:56,879
Speaker 25: country is changing wei to defend Western identity, that sort

3302
02:58:56,920 --> 02:59:00,640
Speaker 25: of stuff. Yes, seeing it all written in document together,

3303
02:59:00,720 --> 02:59:04,560
Speaker 25: I think is where this has value totally. And I think, yeah,

3304
02:59:04,600 --> 02:59:06,320
Speaker 25: seeing that all laid out, seeing that, you know, the

3305
02:59:06,360 --> 02:59:09,199
Speaker 25: way these things play into their view of the world.

3306
02:59:09,240 --> 02:59:13,440
Speaker 25: And then as I following what's actually happening in the world,

3307
02:59:13,520 --> 02:59:16,640
Speaker 25: and like you know clearly that when they're talking, they're

3308
02:59:16,640 --> 02:59:17,240
Speaker 25: talking about.

3309
02:59:17,040 --> 02:59:17,840
Speaker 24: The United States.

3310
02:59:17,879 --> 02:59:20,480
Speaker 25: When they're talking about nations, right, they're not talking about

3311
02:59:20,480 --> 02:59:23,920
Speaker 25: the Kurds, They're not talking about your Zds, the Catalans,

3312
02:59:23,959 --> 02:59:25,240
Speaker 25: southern nations that don't have states.

3313
02:59:25,320 --> 02:59:28,039
Speaker 4: Right. It's just so funny because they lay out all

3314
02:59:28,040 --> 02:59:32,119
Speaker 4: these economic things, right, straining domestic resources, violence and crime,

3315
02:59:32,200 --> 02:59:36,160
Speaker 4: weakened social cohesion, and destroyed labor markets. Right, they lay

3316
02:59:36,160 --> 02:59:38,480
Speaker 4: out all of these things which have direct like like

3317
02:59:38,640 --> 02:59:43,400
Speaker 4: economic cause hole drivers. Yeah, and they're like, no, no, no, no,

3318
02:59:43,800 --> 02:59:48,240
Speaker 4: it's actually not about these economic factors. It's just about immigration,

3319
02:59:48,920 --> 02:59:50,760
Speaker 4: like they're so it's so blatant.

3320
02:59:50,879 --> 02:59:53,320
Speaker 25: Yeah, no, other ideology and history escape go to a

3321
02:59:53,360 --> 02:59:56,200
Speaker 25: certain group for the economic disaster in the country. That's

3322
02:59:56,200 --> 02:59:57,039
Speaker 25: never happened before.

3323
02:59:57,320 --> 02:59:59,640
Speaker 13: Yeah, it's just one for one. If you go back

3324
02:59:59,680 --> 03:00:03,879
Speaker 13: to moish Postone's theory of like structural anti Semitism as

3325
03:00:03,959 --> 03:00:06,920
Speaker 13: the driver of the Holocaust, it's literally just this, right,

3326
03:00:06,920 --> 03:00:09,600
Speaker 13: except this is an even more blatant version of it.

3327
03:00:10,200 --> 03:00:13,160
Speaker 4: Seem like the Nazis, even though did try to do

3328
03:00:13,280 --> 03:00:16,640
Speaker 4: some like populist economic policies as well.

3329
03:00:16,840 --> 03:00:20,400
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, yeah, the Strength through Joy program.

3330
03:00:20,680 --> 03:00:23,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, the modern American right doesn't even try to do that.

3331
03:00:23,800 --> 03:00:26,520
Speaker 4: It's just the immigration. They're not even doing like a

3332
03:00:26,600 --> 03:00:29,280
Speaker 4: weird like like right wing like socialized there.

3333
03:00:29,440 --> 03:00:32,000
Speaker 2: There's all this I'll push back. There's a little bit

3334
03:00:32,040 --> 03:00:33,840
Speaker 2: of like the talk with oh, we're gonna have a

3335
03:00:34,280 --> 03:00:38,480
Speaker 2: give every American thousand dollars that will be invested in that.

3336
03:00:38,640 --> 03:00:40,200
Speaker 2: Like there's there they are like.

3337
03:00:40,560 --> 03:00:42,160
Speaker 4: They talk about it, they don't do it.

3338
03:00:42,200 --> 03:00:42,760
Speaker 5: They don't do it.

3339
03:00:42,959 --> 03:00:45,959
Speaker 25: They talk about it. Yes, sometimes, Yeah, he talked about

3340
03:00:45,959 --> 03:00:48,000
Speaker 25: a tariff check. Right, Trump was going to give every

3341
03:00:48,040 --> 03:00:50,760
Speaker 25: every American check. Yeah yeah, yeah. The first time they

3342
03:00:50,840 --> 03:00:53,560
Speaker 25: date during COVID, Right, they threw some money around, but.

3343
03:00:53,879 --> 03:00:56,280
Speaker 4: There was that like, yeah, one or two stimulus checks

3344
03:00:56,280 --> 03:00:58,080
Speaker 4: we got at the end of COVID. Yeah, the end

3345
03:00:58,120 --> 03:01:01,400
Speaker 4: of a first you know, back of the pandemic cycle

3346
03:01:01,480 --> 03:01:02,240
Speaker 4: to be more accurate.

3347
03:01:02,560 --> 03:01:04,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Robert.

3348
03:01:04,120 --> 03:01:05,959
Speaker 4: Was there one other thing you wanted to talk about?

3349
03:01:06,240 --> 03:01:06,760
Speaker 24: We have time.

3350
03:01:07,320 --> 03:01:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is basically related to the Warner Brothers acquisition.

3351
03:01:12,520 --> 03:01:16,760
Speaker 2: For whatever reason, Reddit's algorithm will periodically give me little

3352
03:01:17,080 --> 03:01:20,440
Speaker 2: hints and bits of the war between Zack Snyder fans

3353
03:01:20,480 --> 03:01:21,560
Speaker 2: and the rest of the world.

3354
03:01:21,760 --> 03:01:24,440
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I know a lot about this. I know

3355
03:01:24,480 --> 03:01:25,039
Speaker 4: a lot about this.

3356
03:01:25,440 --> 03:01:25,640
Speaker 7: Yeah.

3357
03:01:25,640 --> 03:01:28,480
Speaker 2: I'm not a big Zack Snyder fan, you know, but

3358
03:01:28,560 --> 03:01:31,280
Speaker 2: I don't care. Like I didn't feel strongly anti or

3359
03:01:31,360 --> 03:01:35,520
Speaker 2: pro his his DC movies. There are some crazy people

3360
03:01:35,600 --> 03:01:37,879
Speaker 2: out there who believe and they are like reading the

3361
03:01:37,959 --> 03:01:40,600
Speaker 2: tea leaves. They think the Saudis are going to like

3362
03:01:40,840 --> 03:01:42,400
Speaker 2: kill his enemies.

3363
03:01:42,000 --> 03:01:43,760
Speaker 5: They're going to restore the Snyder for Strobert.

3364
03:01:43,959 --> 03:01:48,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is I've been following this just as like

3365
03:01:48,080 --> 03:01:50,119
Speaker 4: a personal interest for you nuts.

3366
03:01:50,560 --> 03:01:51,320
Speaker 5: It's crazy.

3367
03:01:51,360 --> 03:01:56,680
Speaker 4: They're fascinating people like they're fascinating you. Unique people to study,

3368
03:01:57,040 --> 03:01:57,240
Speaker 4: like the.

3369
03:01:57,280 --> 03:01:59,840
Speaker 2: Number of people who literally believe that it like it.

3370
03:02:00,040 --> 03:02:03,840
Speaker 2: There should be people executed publicly for for not letting

3371
03:02:03,920 --> 03:02:06,959
Speaker 2: Zack Snyder finish his movies. That didn't make money is.

3372
03:02:06,959 --> 03:02:11,200
Speaker 4: Out because well because Netflix has parted with Snyder for years,

3373
03:02:11,320 --> 03:02:14,520
Speaker 4: when when if Netflix takes over, they're obviously going to

3374
03:02:14,560 --> 03:02:16,440
Speaker 4: restore the Snyder Verse. James Gunn is going to be You're.

3375
03:02:16,280 --> 03:02:20,400
Speaker 2: Going to restore the Snyder paramount, take over the saudis.

3376
03:02:20,080 --> 03:02:21,040
Speaker 13: We can do it too.

3377
03:02:21,160 --> 03:02:24,440
Speaker 4: So it's it's really for Snyder bros. Things are looking up.

3378
03:02:24,640 --> 03:02:27,520
Speaker 4: So put your money in Snyder coin right now.

3379
03:02:27,680 --> 03:02:30,600
Speaker 2: Well, my favorite thing about that is that like as

3380
03:02:30,600 --> 03:02:32,520
Speaker 2: soon as they announced the deal, they were like and

3381
03:02:32,640 --> 03:02:35,400
Speaker 2: James Gunn is staying. They talked a lot about him

3382
03:02:35,440 --> 03:02:37,760
Speaker 2: on the call because like his movies are a big

3383
03:02:37,800 --> 03:02:41,400
Speaker 2: part of what makes what are valuable right now? Right,

3384
03:02:41,480 --> 03:02:44,400
Speaker 2: Like he's good at making money for the people that

3385
03:02:44,440 --> 03:02:47,840
Speaker 2: he works for. And the level of conspiracy theories like

3386
03:02:47,879 --> 03:02:50,440
Speaker 2: no they have, it's like it's great have to hide

3387
03:02:50,640 --> 03:02:53,640
Speaker 2: Zack Snyder's back because they can't let people know yet,

3388
03:02:53,720 --> 03:02:54,840
Speaker 2: but he's already been told.

3389
03:02:54,879 --> 03:02:56,920
Speaker 4: He's been doing this for like eight years.

3390
03:02:57,280 --> 03:03:01,320
Speaker 2: It's so funny. I had not realized how crazy they were.

3391
03:03:01,600 --> 03:03:04,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love it. It's really fun.

3392
03:03:05,680 --> 03:03:09,000
Speaker 2: Anyway. That that's I always enjoy encountering a new cult.

3393
03:03:09,920 --> 03:03:12,680
Speaker 2: I think Zach is kind of taking advantage to them

3394
03:03:12,720 --> 03:03:16,120
Speaker 2: to get his insight follower account. Yes, it's very funny

3395
03:03:16,160 --> 03:03:19,959
Speaker 2: because he's like posting stuff that's like they're reading. Is

3396
03:03:20,000 --> 03:03:22,440
Speaker 2: like he's messaging that it's coming back, even when guys

3397
03:03:22,520 --> 03:03:24,680
Speaker 2: like Ben Affleckx like it was the worst. I hated

3398
03:03:24,720 --> 03:03:26,760
Speaker 2: being Batman. I would never do that again. I don't

3399
03:03:26,760 --> 03:03:29,800
Speaker 2: want to be it's I I love it. I just

3400
03:03:29,840 --> 03:03:33,400
Speaker 2: love seeing deranged people be it arranged about something that's

3401
03:03:33,440 --> 03:03:36,400
Speaker 2: actually harmless for once. Yeah, we could get we could

3402
03:03:36,400 --> 03:03:38,960
Speaker 2: get a Snyder verse related shooting. That's not impossible.

3403
03:03:39,320 --> 03:03:44,000
Speaker 4: Snyder does encourage it a little bit. But yeah, Snyder

3404
03:03:44,080 --> 03:03:46,160
Speaker 4: is not I think the villain of this story.

3405
03:03:46,240 --> 03:03:49,920
Speaker 2: And no, he's clearly friends with Gun like they're they're no, no.

3406
03:03:49,879 --> 03:03:55,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and I uh. Specifically, he has dropped his plans,

3407
03:03:55,680 --> 03:03:58,720
Speaker 4: which which he had for years, to do some mind

3408
03:03:58,760 --> 03:04:01,560
Speaker 4: randed adaptions, which I'm bummed about because I think Snyder's

3409
03:04:01,560 --> 03:04:05,760
Speaker 4: heron raand would be great and instead instead he's writing

3410
03:04:05,760 --> 03:04:10,280
Speaker 4: this like this like lesbian movie with someone with yeah,

3411
03:04:10,320 --> 03:04:14,240
Speaker 4: and so unfortunately we're trading iron rand for like this

3412
03:04:14,360 --> 03:04:17,119
Speaker 4: like lesbian cinema slop, which I'm I.

3413
03:04:17,040 --> 03:04:19,680
Speaker 2: Am just lesbian I am really about because.

3414
03:04:19,440 --> 03:04:21,840
Speaker 4: I think I think Zack Snyder's Iron Rand would be

3415
03:04:21,840 --> 03:04:23,480
Speaker 4: a much more fascinating piece of art.

3416
03:04:23,520 --> 03:04:26,440
Speaker 2: No, No, I want to see Ben Shapiro get one

3417
03:04:26,480 --> 03:04:27,360
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty million.

3418
03:04:28,720 --> 03:04:29,400
Speaker 13: That's what I've got.

3419
03:04:29,800 --> 03:04:30,000
Speaker 10: Yeah.

3420
03:04:30,120 --> 03:04:34,720
Speaker 4: No, they bought exclusive TV rights to one of the

3421
03:04:34,840 --> 03:04:36,440
Speaker 4: one of the books I for I forget if I forget

3422
03:04:36,480 --> 03:04:38,800
Speaker 4: if it was Funtain Head or Atlas Shrugged. But since

3423
03:04:38,879 --> 03:04:41,120
Speaker 4: the Daily Wires like finances have collapsed, I do not

3424
03:04:41,200 --> 03:04:42,800
Speaker 4: think they're going forward with that right now.

3425
03:04:43,200 --> 03:04:46,160
Speaker 2: Oh but but gare the pendragonsight it's coming out though.

3426
03:04:46,320 --> 03:04:48,480
Speaker 13: I'm excited, right, we got.

3427
03:04:48,280 --> 03:04:50,280
Speaker 2: To watch that together, but you gotta find it.

3428
03:04:50,440 --> 03:04:50,840
Speaker 5: We gotta.

3429
03:04:50,879 --> 03:04:52,680
Speaker 2: We gotta have the company pay for us to meet

3430
03:04:52,720 --> 03:04:55,600
Speaker 2: in the Airbnb in a state and and just just

3431
03:04:55,720 --> 03:04:56,760
Speaker 2: watch that, son of a bit.

3432
03:04:57,000 --> 03:04:59,039
Speaker 4: If we want to this year to plan some kind

3433
03:04:59,080 --> 03:05:02,800
Speaker 4: of a cool zone convergence to to to watch uh,

3434
03:05:03,080 --> 03:05:05,000
Speaker 4: to watch the pen Dragon cycle together, I would I

3435
03:05:05,000 --> 03:05:06,080
Speaker 4: would hapily travel for that.

3436
03:05:06,600 --> 03:05:08,720
Speaker 2: I think we're ethically obligated to do that.

3437
03:05:08,800 --> 03:05:14,160
Speaker 13: Okay, final final closing note. Trans housing insecurity continuing to increase.

3438
03:05:14,400 --> 03:05:17,040
Speaker 13: But if you have an extra room, put a transperson

3439
03:05:17,080 --> 03:05:19,200
Speaker 13: in if you have a couch, put a transgirl on

3440
03:05:19,240 --> 03:05:21,640
Speaker 13: your couch. This is going to be bea the message

3441
03:05:21,720 --> 03:05:25,959
Speaker 13: going forward. Jesus Christ. People put a trans girl on

3442
03:05:26,040 --> 03:05:28,360
Speaker 13: your couch. You can figure out how to live together.

3443
03:05:28,480 --> 03:05:32,039
Speaker 13: It will be fine. People are going homeless and dying.

3444
03:05:32,800 --> 03:05:33,360
Speaker 13: Please do this.

3445
03:05:33,600 --> 03:05:36,280
Speaker 2: Wait, is there like data on like what's what's that?

3446
03:05:36,680 --> 03:05:39,760
Speaker 2: Is this just as a result of like the continuing

3447
03:05:40,120 --> 03:05:41,560
Speaker 2: like people being forced out.

3448
03:05:41,400 --> 03:05:41,959
Speaker 24: Of their jobs?

3449
03:05:42,040 --> 03:05:43,880
Speaker 13: Yeah, this is this is this is this is all

3450
03:05:44,200 --> 03:05:46,480
Speaker 13: this is. This is me finally talking about something I've

3451
03:05:46,480 --> 03:05:48,840
Speaker 13: been tracking for a very very long time, which is

3452
03:05:49,160 --> 03:05:50,680
Speaker 13: I mean I say a very long time. But you know,

3453
03:05:50,800 --> 03:05:53,160
Speaker 13: even over about the past four or five years, has

3454
03:05:53,200 --> 03:05:57,240
Speaker 13: been massive transmigration into places like Portland, into places like Chicago,

3455
03:05:57,320 --> 03:05:58,520
Speaker 13: into places like New York.

3456
03:05:59,400 --> 03:06:01,800
Speaker 4: They're getting how in New York there's a lot of

3457
03:06:02,160 --> 03:06:04,600
Speaker 4: a lot of transh housing in New York. I think this. Yeah,

3458
03:06:04,600 --> 03:06:06,680
Speaker 4: there's there's some regional aspects of this.

3459
03:06:07,480 --> 03:06:08,600
Speaker 24: Don't come to San Diego.

3460
03:06:08,920 --> 03:06:11,160
Speaker 2: We yeah, it make it makes sense that the cities

3461
03:06:11,200 --> 03:06:13,320
Speaker 2: that are safer having like a big influence and there's

3462
03:06:13,320 --> 03:06:15,240
Speaker 2: a lot of people, those are also cities that do

3463
03:06:15,320 --> 03:06:18,759
Speaker 2: not have great housings supply that yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

3464
03:06:18,920 --> 03:06:19,600
Speaker 2: nearly balloon.

3465
03:06:19,720 --> 03:06:21,320
Speaker 13: And there's been a lot of issues with it, and

3466
03:06:21,360 --> 03:06:23,920
Speaker 13: that's something that can be mitigated by just putting people

3467
03:06:23,959 --> 03:06:24,560
Speaker 13: on your couch.

3468
03:06:25,360 --> 03:06:29,200
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, that's as a short terms maybe I

3469
03:06:29,240 --> 03:06:31,520
Speaker 4: don't honestly the couch thing freaks me out. As a

3470
03:06:31,560 --> 03:06:32,360
Speaker 4: long term solution.

3471
03:06:32,680 --> 03:06:34,080
Speaker 13: Well, but I mean that's the thing though, it doesn't

3472
03:06:34,120 --> 03:06:36,400
Speaker 13: have to be a long term.

3473
03:06:36,280 --> 03:06:39,360
Speaker 4: If people have connections to help other people get jobs.

3474
03:06:39,640 --> 03:06:42,400
Speaker 13: Yeah, so they can like just like pay.

3475
03:06:42,360 --> 03:06:44,160
Speaker 4: Pay a low amount of rent for like a room

3476
03:06:44,640 --> 03:06:48,280
Speaker 4: that's way more solid than like this like forever couch

3477
03:06:48,360 --> 03:06:51,800
Speaker 4: surfing thing that sometimes people like refer to as like

3478
03:06:51,879 --> 03:06:53,039
Speaker 4: quote unquote transhusing.

3479
03:06:53,160 --> 03:06:53,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

3480
03:06:53,920 --> 03:06:56,800
Speaker 13: Okay, but again, but the the the idea here is

3481
03:06:56,840 --> 03:06:58,440
Speaker 13: that there and this is something that I have running

3482
03:06:58,440 --> 03:06:59,959
Speaker 13: too extensively, is there are a bunch of people who

3483
03:07:00,040 --> 03:07:03,200
Speaker 13: basically just need to get out and need like a

3484
03:07:03,280 --> 03:07:05,640
Speaker 13: couple of months or a month to get back on

3485
03:07:05,680 --> 03:07:08,039
Speaker 13: their feet and don't have the ability to do it

3486
03:07:08,080 --> 03:07:10,199
Speaker 13: and are going homeless because of that, and it's killing

3487
03:07:10,240 --> 03:07:13,400
Speaker 13: people and it fucking sucks. Yeah, and that is something

3488
03:07:13,480 --> 03:07:15,879
Speaker 13: that can be mitigated with sort of cultural shifts towards

3489
03:07:15,879 --> 03:07:17,959
Speaker 13: sharing space more, and we're all gonna have to do

3490
03:07:17,959 --> 03:07:20,760
Speaker 13: it more because the economy's about to collapse even more so.

3491
03:07:21,600 --> 03:07:22,560
Speaker 2: Great fun.

3492
03:07:23,440 --> 03:07:25,160
Speaker 13: Yay, put a transcoll on your couch.

3493
03:07:25,640 --> 03:07:27,760
Speaker 25: If you would like to email us, you can do

3494
03:07:27,879 --> 03:07:31,600
Speaker 25: so by emailing cool Zone Tips at proton dot me.

3495
03:07:32,080 --> 03:07:34,520
Speaker 25: Many of you already have, I'm sure there are more

3496
03:07:34,560 --> 03:07:36,520
Speaker 25: of you to come. If you want it to be encrypted,

3497
03:07:36,560 --> 03:07:39,200
Speaker 25: you should send it from a proton mail address as well.

3498
03:07:39,600 --> 03:07:43,360
Speaker 4: Okay, everybody, Well, happy holidays. I think we have one

3499
03:07:43,360 --> 03:07:46,039
Speaker 4: more ed episode before the end of the year. We

3500
03:07:46,200 --> 03:07:47,640
Speaker 4: reported the news.

3501
03:07:48,120 --> 03:07:49,480
Speaker 5: We reported the news.

3502
03:07:53,240 --> 03:07:56,400
Speaker 2: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3503
03:07:56,440 --> 03:07:58,360
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

3504
03:07:59,120 --> 03:08:01,720
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3505
03:08:01,800 --> 03:08:04,800
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3506
03:08:04,920 --> 03:08:08,520
Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3507
03:08:08,560 --> 03:08:10,640
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

3508
03:08:10,280 --> 03:08:11,599
Speaker 5: You listen to podcasts.

3509
03:08:11,920 --> 03:08:13,840
Speaker 1: You can now find sources for It Could Happen here,

3510
03:08:13,840 --> 03:08:16,840
Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.