WEBVTT - Special Episode: Dr. Kate Clancy & Period 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:47.239 Hi, I'm Aaron Welsh and this is This Podcast Will 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:51.519 Kill You. Welcome everyone to the latest installment in this 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:56.080 season's book Club miniseries, where we get to read fascinating 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:59.720 popular science books and then chat with the authors of 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:03.280 the these amazing books. I have had so much fun 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:06.920 so far talking about topics such as the origins of sars, 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:12.000 Covy two, why we should appreciate sweat more, and most recently, 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:16.040 the disturbing persistence of race science in biological and medical 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:20.400 research today. And we have got so many more exciting 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:23.000 books on our schedule over these next few months to 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:27.440 keep you informed and entertained. We'd also love to hear 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:30.520 from you about how you're liking these book Club episodes, 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.240 what lingering questions you have that we didn't cover, and 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:36.600 if there are any books that you'd like to add 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.479 to the list. Just send us a message through our 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:42.560 contact ust form on our website This Podcast will Kill 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:46.039 You dot com, or through our email This Podcast will 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:51.320 Kill You at gmail dot com. All right, podcast business over. Now, 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.920 let's get to what we're going to be talking about today, 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:59.720 and that is menstruation. Despite the fact that about half 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:03.559 of the people on this planet have menstruated or will 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:06.640 menstruate at some point in their lives, and that, as 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:10.920 UNICEF tells me, one point eight billion people across the 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:15.440 world menstruate each month. There remains an aura of mystery 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:22.200 surrounding this completely natural biological function. Conversations about periods, about 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:26.880 flow duration, cramping, color, or consistency of discharge, they take 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:32.000 place in hushed tones. Tampons or pads or panteliners are 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:37.519 passed surreptitiously like sleight of hand style. TV commercials advertising 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:42.760 menstrual products somehow managed to not mention periods or menstruation 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:47.800 at all, and instead show people pouring a mysterious blue 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:52.840 liquid distinctly not menstrual blood, onto various pads or in 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:56.440 a beaker where it's absorbed by a tampon. The list 0:02:56.480 --> 0:03:00.560 of euphemisms for periods is seemingly never end, and I 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:02.480 bet you can think of at least three or four 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:05.040 right off the top of your head that time of 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:09.000 the month, aunt flow on the rag. These were just 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:12.400 the first three that popped into my head. And if 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:15.960 someone does dare to speak openly about menstruation, they are 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:19.359 often told that they are gross, that periods are disgusting 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:23.800 and don't make for polite conversation. This widespread shame regarding 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:28.680 periods so often leads to silence, a silence which serves 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:33.480 only those who actively want to exert control over menstruators, 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:37.480 who want to take away their bodily autonomy, and in 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:40.880 a recently proposed bill in Florida, this silence would be 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:45.320 legally enforced, with children and their teachers forbidden from talking 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:49.120 about menstruation in school until sixth grade, at which point 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.280 many of these children would have already started having periods. 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:57.760 In period The Real Story of Menstruation, published just last week, 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:02.320 author doctor Kate Clancy, explores the complex origins of these 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:06.440 attitudes to menstruation and considers their role in the perpetuation 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:12.080 of period myths, menstruation taboos, and widespread myths and disinformation 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:16.080 that reveals that what little science does know about periods 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:20.400 is often less than correct. Doctor Clancy, who is a 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:23.840 professor of anthropology at the University of Illinois at Urbana 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:28.080 Champaigne and has worked extensively on the issue of pervasive 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:33.360 sexual harassment and higher education, presents a compassionate, clear and 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:38.599 thoughtful examination of menstruation that is at once informative and inspiring. 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:43.400 Informative for the thorough debunking of long standing period myths 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:49.039 and clear explanation of biological processes, and inspiring for demonstrating 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.880 that knowledge is power, that knowing the sources of and 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:57.479 reasons for shame and disinformation is a crucial part of 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:01.640 imagining a better period future. Doctor Clancy joins me on 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:05.120 this bonus episode to discuss a bit about these period futures, 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:08.640 the inspiration behind her book Period, some of the ways 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:12.320 that different cultures vary in their perceptions of periods, why 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:15.320 the concept of a quote unquote normal period is both 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.680 untrue and can be harmful, but the sars kvy two 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:21.960 vaccine revealed about scientific attitudes towards periods, some of the 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.839 different hypotheses for why human's mens street, and so so 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:30.080 much more. Period is sure to become an instant favorite 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:34.200 among listeners, and as a longtime admirer of doctor Clancy, 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:36.960 who has kicked myself for never taking one of her 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:40.080 classes while I was at the University of Illinois, I 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.480 am so excited for today's episode. If you can already 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:46.640 tell so On that note, let's get right to the 0:05:46.680 --> 0:06:13.800 interview after this shortbreak. Thank you so very much for 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:16.839 being here. I was incredibly thrilled when I learned that 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:19.719 you were writing a book about periods, and that excitement 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:23.960 was totally justified because period the real story of menstruation, 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:28.280 is absolutely fantastic. What made you decide to write a 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:31.240 book about periods and why focus on the aspects you 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:32.200 did well? 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:34.599 First, Thank you so much. I'm so glad you liked it. 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:38.880 That makes me really happy. I will say, it's been 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:42.479 such an interesting process, going from the book idea to 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:46.279 book proposal, through multiple drafts and now this finished product. 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:48.640 And you know, what I want most of all is 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:50.640 just for people to read it. You know, I hope 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:52.480 it gets into some hands and that people will read it. 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:55.400 So that's wonderful to hear. Part of the reason that 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:58.640 I wanted to write a book about periods was that 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:02.040 I really noticed a lot of menstrual stigma in my field. 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:06.240 And when I would discuss menstruation or periods, there would 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:08.880 be these interesting body language changes in the way I 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.400 spoke to people. They would start to wrinkle their nose, 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:13.920 that was the big one. They would start to lean back. 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:16.440 There was a lot of just sort of changes that 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:18.960 made me realize that even in a scientific context, we 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:22.280 are often not ready to discuss it. And it's interesting 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:26.120 to me because my field talks endlessly about menstrual cycles, 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:30.320 and we have no problem talking about ovaries and eggs 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:34.720 and estrogen and progesterone, but you start to talk about 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:38.400 mensis and it suddenly becomes well, let's see if we 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:41.360 can sort of scientifically talk our way around this being 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:45.240 unnecessary or of no real consequence to the science of 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:47.720 menstrual cycles. So I just, I mean, really, I just 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:48.400 leaned into that. 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:52.240 It's so interesting. And in your book you discuss how 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:56.840 attitudes about menstruation in the US tend to be negative 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:01.760 right falling along, you point out three axes, activity, and communication. 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.240 What do each of these mean and what are some 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:08.320 of the ultimate consequences of these negative attitudes? 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:13.240 Sure, so concealment is, you know, around menstrual concealment. So 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:17.760 we are taught very early on that for people to 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.800 know we are menstruating or see that we are menstruating 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:24.920 is shameful. And yet at the same time, there have 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.280 been researchers who've looked at, you know, what are we 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.520 actually taught about menstruation, particularly in the US. These are 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.400 us focused studies, even though most of us are taught 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:35.880 like what is a menstrual cycle? What is the uterus for? 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:40.080 Like sort of the health class version menstrual management. So 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:42.560 how to actually do that concealing is something we're not 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:46.480 really taught. We're taught that tampons exist, that pads exist. 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:51.160 Now we have cups and underwear and other options. But 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:53.959 you know, I don't know. I mean, maybe you have 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:56.280 a different experience, but my experience of health class was 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:59.440 definitely not that my male health teacher, who was also 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:02.720 the basketball coach, was going to be explaining tampon insertion 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.720 to any of us. And yet research has shown that 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:08.679 that is what people most desperately want to learn when 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:11.520 it comes to actually learning about periods. So, on the 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.480 one hand, there's all this enforced concealment, and there's this 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:17.640 shame when we fail to conceal. On the other hand, 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:21.400 because of the stigma, nobody talks to us about how 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:24.000 to do that concealing. So, I mean, just imagine how 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:26.320 many issues are wrapped up in that. Right. Then, in 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.079 terms of activity, there are you know, there are sort 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:33.160 of these long standing assumptions that during mensis you're more tired, 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.280 or that you might want to withdraw from society or 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:40.480 do less physical activity. Certainly, when I was younger, it 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:41.880 was one of the ways you could get out of 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:45.240 pe or physical education class was to tell your instructor 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:47.760 you have your period. You know. On the one hand, 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:49.960 you could see it as a nice thing because it's 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:52.280 a way of honoring Hey, maybe my body's doing something 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:55.160 a little different today, maybe it would be nice to rest. 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:57.880 On the other hand, though, it also is a way 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:01.040 of withdrawing from society, and so so sort of this 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:03.480 issue of activity, I think is a big one because 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:06.400 of the ways that since you're never telling anybody why 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:08.599 you're doing it, you're just because we're not supposed to 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:10.960 be talking about when we have our periods. It's sort 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:12.840 of this secret thing that we just sort of like 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:15.520 exempt ourselves from the world a little bit more around 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:18.920 this time. And then again, communication kind of ties these 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:22.080 all together, because issues of communication mean that even though 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:25.240 we somehow get this vibe that we're supposed to be concealing, 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:28.080 we're supposed to be removing ourselves. People aren't supposed to 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:31.520 know that we have our period. The how and the 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:35.480 practicalities of it completely escape us, which means many of 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:39.520 us go through all sorts of rounds of not concealing 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:42.839 mencies and having very embarrassing stories. You know, I bled 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:45.760 through my clothes multiple times in middle school and high school, 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:50.240 and I actually really enjoyed the solidarity of being supported 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:53.360 by other menstruating people in those moments of people bopping 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:55.680 shirts with me so I could wrap things around my waist, 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.640 finding tampons or pads when I ran out. I actually 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:03.199 think that we can notice the broader structural problems here 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:06.480 while also appreciate that menstruating people have found some very 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:10.040 clever ways to subvert or undercut these structural problems and 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:11.000 still support each other. 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:15.440 Absolutely. I have so many memories of middle school, just 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.440 the horror of a tampon flying out of my backpack 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:22.199 and like, oh no, someone's gonna see. And in retrospect 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:25.680 it's like, okay, that's okay, but you don't learn that. 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:26.720 Growing up, we. 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:29.040 Watched an in cake movie. I don't know if you 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:30.839 watched a movie, but when I was in fifth grade, 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:33.319 so again i'm old. You know, I'm in my forties. 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:36.439 But the movie we watched in fifth grade as part 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:40.760 of our sex ed was These Girls were having a sleepover, 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:43.079 and they were having they were in a tent out 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:45.480 in the backyard, and one of the middle of the night, 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:47.839 in the middle of the night, one of them gets 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:50.040 up and goes inside and comes back and is kind 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:52.360 of secretive about it. And then in the morning you 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.680 find out one of them got her period. And then 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:58.880 it's this whole educational thing where the mom is then 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:02.840 teaching these three girls all about periods. And it's actually 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:04.839 one of the only ones I've ever seen that even 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:07.440 talks about like the quantity of menstrul blood or anything. 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:11.120 So the really like, the really funny scene for me 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:13.160 that I will just remember for the rest of my life, 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:16.000 even though it's thirty plus years ago, is the moment 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:18.880 she's holding up some pancake batter and she says, you know, 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:21.960 a girl will menstruate about half a cup over the 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:24.120 course of her period, and then she pours out the 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:27.760 batter into the shape of the uterus and then starts explaining, 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.120 you know, the functions of the uterus and menstruation on 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:31.840 this pancake. 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:34.680 Wow, that's one. 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.000 Of my very strong memories from childhood, is just the 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:41.360 uterus pancake and the menstrul blood batter That is amazing. 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:44.600 I have to find that on YouTube and check that out. 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:52.400 These negative attitudes or menstrual taboos, they're not universal across cultures, 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:56.080 although it's a common misconception that they are. Why do 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.520 you think this misconception is so common? And what do 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.360 you think are the origins of this Western idea of 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:07.200 menstruation as being unclean or shameful or something to hide. 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:10.840 I mean, the main misconception is that who drives the 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:14.040 majority of science in the world right now in terms 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:18.600 of what gets the most attention and what dominates right So, 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:23.920 Western science and Western medicine models and Western language are 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:27.880 what dominate in science, even if that's not obviously the 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:30.959 only way to think about westernness or Western science of 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:32.880 any kind right is it doesn't have to all be 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:35.240 English language, but in fact the majority of it is. 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:40.160 So I think a lot of that universality misconception comes 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:44.640 from the fact that Westerners, particularly white Westerners, and to 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.360 center themselves and everything and just assume that we are 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:50.360 the norm. To me, that's the biggest piece of it. 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.720 I and that's very tied to settler colonialism. You know, 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:56.600 the whole practice of settler colonialism is going in where 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.360 people already live, pretending now that this stuff belongs to you, 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:05.280 and then you know, extracting resources, committing genocide, taking over, 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:09.000 and often there's you know, there's some cultural appropriation, but 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:11.960 there's also a ton of cultural erasure, and that's a 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:15.400 lot of colonialism is about dominance, and so it's not 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:18.600 surprising then that, you know, we just come to assume 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:21.400 that a lot of the cultural practices that occur in 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:25.600 a lot of our societal contexts are universal. I think 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:28.600 the other thing is that as our ideas of menstrual 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:32.320 stigma and menstrual taboo have changed over time, I think 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:34.800 there have been a lot of folks who have at 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:38.120 first pushed for a more scientific understanding of periods and 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:42.160 then have expressly tried to neutralize a lot of the 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:46.240 language and even sometimes create a positive spin in thinking 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:49.280 about menstruation. And as we've moved in that direction, it 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:54.200 becomes very comforting to Westerners, again, especially white Westerners, to 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:57.680 conceive of menstrual stigma as something in the past, or 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:00.360 even to use really problematic language like this mus be 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.960 a primitive way of thinking because we are modernizing it. 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.560 And then that continues to reinforce this idea. Well, since 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:09.240 this is in the past, I bet this is what 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:13.640 happens to those other cultures that are less modern than ours. 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:16.040 So I think there's a couple different things going on, 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:19.320 where again, it's all about colonialism, and it's all about 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:21.240 these ways in which we are just trying to believe 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:24.440 that wherever we're at is the best place to be 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.000 in the most sort of evolved or modern take on things. 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:32.800 So, speaking of misconceptions, let's turn towards this idea of 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:37.160 quote unquote normal periods. Why do we have this idea 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.440 and why is it still often top maybe two separate questions, 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.040 that a normal period comes every twenty eight days and 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:46.440 you belied for four to five of them, and anything 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:48.720 outside of that is too heavy or too light, or 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:52.040 too long or too short. Why is it so important 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:56.840 to discuss variability in periods or normal patterns rather than 0:15:57.200 --> 0:15:58.680 a normal period? 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:04.200 Right, So, this concept of normality is actually one with 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:08.320 a eugenic origin. And when we say it used to 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:11.040 be that the term normal meant normal in terms of 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:14.640 functional though. A normal kidney is a kidney that is 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.280 functioning as it should be. A normal liver is one 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:21.520 that is functioning in the way that it was intended, right, 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:24.400 So again it was just a It just sort of 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:28.040 meant functionality. It began to be co opted and thought 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:32.120 of differently, in particular among people who liked to start 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:36.400 to imagine some people are better than other people, or 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:40.560 some processes are better than other processes. And so again, 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:44.320 these concepts of normality came directly from people who had 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:48.080 who believed in eugenics, promoted eugenics, wanted to believe that 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:52.800 some people fell within a normal range or were statistically average, 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:56.400 and that to be statistically average is the desired trait. 0:16:57.560 --> 0:16:58.960 And I think that's kind of it's kind of a 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.240 weird concept, right, because in some ways we have these 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:05.919 concepts of ideals, and we also have these concepts of average, 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:09.000 But what happens really often is that they get really 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:12.040 conflated and we start to see the average is ideal. 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.040 How does that happen because when we create this idea 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:18.399 of average, we only include some people in the calculation. 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:21.919 So you know, if you're trying to figure out the 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:27.320 ideal body type and you only include thin, white, able bodied, 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:31.160 cisgender women between the ages of eighteen and twenty, you're 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:34.080 going to get an average of that group. That then 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.679 if you try to say that that's the average for everybody, 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:38.960 is really not going to seem right at all. So 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:41.439 that's how those things start to get conflated. So with 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:43.760 the menstrual cycle, it's the same sort of an issue 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:47.280 where the way that we've calculated or assessed normal and 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:52.520 average has been from a very limited understanding of menstrual cycles. 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:55.639 This idea that the best menstrual cycle to have is 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:59.639 one that is twenty eight days long and always ovulates 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:03.119 that it's really not the right notion. Menstrual cycles should vary. 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:07.359 They should be really variable and long and largely in 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:12.199 ovulatory when you're a teenager. Even in your twenties, they 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.439 should still actually be the hormone should probably be on 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:17.040 the lower side, and you're still going to have some 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:21.480 n ovulations. Thirties are when the body really kind of 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:25.280 hits its stride, and so like mid twenties to mid thirties, 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:27.960 maybe even into late thirties, is when you're seeing something 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:30.399 closest to what we often say is sort of the 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:33.760 normal cycle. Even then, up to a third of the 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:36.159 time you're not ovulating, so it doesn't look anything like 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:38.560 the norm, and then things start to shift, you know, 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.119 late thirties into forties, and as we head into menopause, 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:44.479 we start to have a completely different range that you 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:48.560 can see among completely healthy people. So again I use 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:50.760 age as this one example, but there are so many 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:54.159 other ways we can also sort of parse these different 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:57.159 patterns and start to learn that this textbook that we 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:00.680 keep being shown doesn't actually represent a whole lot of people. 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:02.800 And in fact, when we look at menstrual cycles in 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:05.840 our lab, it's really hard to ever find anybody who 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.760 looks like that, even among people in our rural Polish 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:11.680 population who've had twelve children, who clearly have no problem 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:15.560 getting pregnant, superfertile, but their menstrual cycles don't look like that. 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:20.080 So when scientists and researchers began to take a closer 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:22.879 look at periods, you know, during the time when eugenics 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:26.840 began to rise in popularity as well, it also resulted 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:31.880 in many researchers proposing different hypotheses for the reasons humans menstruate, 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:34.840 and those hypotheses have changed, and there have been new ones, 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:37.880 and you know, other ones have gone out of out 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:40.640 of style. Can you take us on a brief tour 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:44.800 through some of these ideas about the evolution of menstruation, 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:47.360 and do you think it's likely that there's a one 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:50.840 size fits all hypothesis that will eventually come to light 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:52.959 or do you think it's just going to be difficult 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:56.320 because there are so many different drivers for the evolution 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:59.000 and persistence of menstruation in humans. 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:02.440 I kind of want to answer the second question first, 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:05.600 which is that there is never going to be I 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:12.080 don't think one perfect explanation for why menstruation evolved, and 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:13.879 the reason for that is that there isn't really a 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:17.600 good one for any trait that's evolved, and that there's 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:22.879 a fundamental problem when we create incentive structures in science 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:26.879 that require that we have, you know, the Clancy hypothesis 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:30.919 or the whoever you know, like the reason that we 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:33.800 have these ideas of the quote prime mover hypothesis so 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.400 much in evolutionary biology is that people want to stake 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:39.880 their professional claims on being the one who figured out 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:43.560 the answer. But the reality is that most of these 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:47.080 traits are operating under a number of different competing forces. 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:49.560 So I'm going to give the punchline of where I 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:51.560 of what I think is going on, which is that 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:55.320 I think there are two main really three main hypotheses, 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:58.160 all of which have some truth to them in terms 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:02.000 of why humans, in particular killer menstruate as copiously as 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:06.400 they do. We have Beverly Strassman's hypothesis on energy economy 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:09.600 that came through in the nineteen nineties. I think what 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:11.760 was really important about it is that, in addition to 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:13.680 the fact that she did some work to discount a 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:16.719 hypothesis i'll talk about in a minute, we also use 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:19.480 it as an opportunity to say, you know, there is 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:23.720 a lot of energy expenditure that goes into creating, so 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:27.320 proliferating the lining of the uterus and then differentiating it. 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:31.720 And that's like hundreds of calories. And so rather than 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:36.600 maintaining that indefinitely for some possible implantation, really we should 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:38.080 get rid of it when we don't need it and 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:42.520 start over. So the energy explanation, I mean energetics rides 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:45.280 through so much of evolution that I think it's it 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:48.199 would be silly to say that that has absolutely no bearing. 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:51.240 The next one is terminal differentiation, which is the one. 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:53.600 This is Colin finn. This is the one people like 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:56.040 the best. But I think again. Is one of really 0:21:56.119 --> 0:22:00.520 three great hypotheses that are all all valuable, and point 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:04.520 is really just like a physiological inevitability one, which is 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:06.640 that you know, if you're going to grow this endometrium, 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:10.560 you're going to differentiate it into this particular set of cells, 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:14.280 this particular structure that's great for implantation. It probably has 0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:17.560 an expiration date right most cells that once they differentiate. 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:21.000 That's where that term terminal differentiation comes from. Once cells 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:23.920 sort of get to a certain point, they can't really 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:27.080 like back up and do something else. So once they've 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:29.800 hit that point and you've kind of passed some receptive 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:32.600 window by which it's maybe not going to be as 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:36.280 effective for implantation to work, it makes sense for these 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:38.680 cells to die so that you can kind of start 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:42.280 over again. So that's where the terminal differentiation idea comes from. 0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:45.159 Once it differentiates, you know, if it's not used, we 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:47.800 kind of have to just start over. The third one, 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:51.160 which is a newer idea that I think is incredibly valuable, 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:55.440 is from Brozens and others looking at what's called preconditioning, 0:22:55.680 --> 0:23:00.280 which is basically this idea that menstruation is practice when 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:04.520 you grow and differentiate that endometrium. What you see is 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:07.359 that the more and more you do it, the better 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:12.880 those structures get, and potentially the more receptive the endometrium 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:17.040 is for implantation, it means that the implantation process might 0:23:17.119 --> 0:23:19.840 go better. And we have some really interesting lines of 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:24.520 evidence to support this, in particular around preeclamsia. So preeclamsia 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:28.199 is a condition of pregnancy that is a hypertensive So 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:31.840 it's a blood pressure disorder, and it's incredibly dangerous. It 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:36.080 has killed many people, many pregnant people, and you know, 0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:38.400 as your heart, as your blood pressure starts to go up, 0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:41.320 really the only fix is to give birth, so it 0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:44.480 can lead to premature birth, and even then that may 0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:46.520 not be enough if you don't catch it early enough. 0:23:46.520 --> 0:23:49.040 And there we now do have some drugs that will 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:52.040 help people survive preeclamsia. But I mean, if you're a 0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:53.919 down to an Abby fan, you know that one of 0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:57.840