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Speaker 1: This is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. Listening to podcast,

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Speaker 1: you can't predict anything brought to you by first Light.

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Speaker 1: When I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First

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Speaker 1: Light builds, no compromise, gear that keeps me in the

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Speaker 1: field longer, no shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it

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Speaker 1: out at first light dot com. That's f I R

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Speaker 1: S T L I T E dot com. Hot Damn.

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Speaker 1: We're joining today by the one of the greatest guests,

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Speaker 1: oh man. I mean, for like in terms of just

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Speaker 1: consistent performances over the years, dude, one of the greatest

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Speaker 1: guests of all time. Greatest guests, I mean like I'm

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Speaker 1: not talking about just of Guess do you feel like

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Speaker 1: I'm buttering them up a little much?

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Speaker 2: You're going big.

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Speaker 1: I didn't expect it, dude, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Normally he tries to knock you down. First builds you back.

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Speaker 1: If you took all the greatest guests, oh man, and

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Speaker 1: then had a showdown among those guests, yeah, Carl would

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Speaker 1: emerge top. Maybe not the top, but like he would.

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Speaker 2: He might be too nice to make it to the top.

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Speaker 1: He'd be up there, Carl malc wild like wildlife biologists,

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Speaker 1: long history at the every time you've ever been on,

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Speaker 1: I think you've been on. No, every time you've ever

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Speaker 1: been on, you've been on as a guy from the

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Speaker 1: four Service. That is true. That is true.

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Speaker 3: Yep, you and I started doing podcasts not long after

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Speaker 3: I joined Federal Service, which was back in late twenty eleven.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but Carl's got a very deep history and all

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Speaker 1: things outdoors. Grew up big time hunter, big time angler,

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Speaker 1: got into things like weird stuff man like, got into

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Speaker 1: doing deer work on uh, deer work on air airport runways.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, wildlife damage management.

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Speaker 1: Wildlife damage management, got so into muskrat trapp And I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you know this, brody. Nope, Phil probably

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Speaker 1: knows about this. Got so in the muskrat trap and

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Speaker 1: that he used to put in a bid to lock

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Speaker 1: down a chunk Oh, don't tell me. I can't think

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Speaker 1: of a chunk of marsh oricon.

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Speaker 2: Marsh's famous one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah in the world like some of the best muskrats

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Speaker 1: on the planet. He used to put in a bid

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Speaker 1: to get his own private chunk of the marsh, the

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Speaker 1: Horcon Marsh. During the during the mini boom, the mini

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Speaker 1: boom of like twenty eleven to twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 2: Did you have like trapping rivals, like trapping wars.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's its own section. Yeah, with my.

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Speaker 2: People like people like didn't come in.

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Speaker 3: And no, no, I mean the federal the federal agents

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Speaker 3: out there.

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Speaker 1: Stay close that microphils. Oh, you already got yours on.

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Speaker 3: The federal agents there do not mess around and these

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Speaker 3: boundaries are very clearly defined. That was with my dear

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Speaker 3: buddy Jacob Zeiski.

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Speaker 1: Will we get how many muskrats are you guys catching?

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Speaker 1: Hundreds hundreds?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and uh during the mini boom, Yeah, because they

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Speaker 3: would do a sting out there, the federal agents would

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Speaker 3: do a sting out there. There's a highway that cuts

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Speaker 3: east west across Horicon Marsh, and there's so many muskrat

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Speaker 3: trappers going across this bridge. Federal agents would put a

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Speaker 3: road killed muskrat out there and see who had stopped

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Speaker 3: to pick it up, because that was one of one

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Speaker 3: of the ways that they could pinpoint folks who are

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Speaker 3: not following the rules because it was technically illegal to

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Speaker 3: gather up a road killed muskrat.

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Speaker 2: That seems kind of that seems kind cheap.

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Speaker 1: I knew, I knew, I knew what your sentiments would

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Speaker 1: be on that. But but the parks that situation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, point point is they strictly enforced those boundaries.

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Speaker 1: Uh. I got a return to that in a minute.

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Speaker 1: Here to tell you something interesting. The reason Carl's what

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Speaker 1: we're here to talk about is rough grouse and also

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Speaker 1: and also American woodcut because Carl is now the VP

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Speaker 1: of Conservation at the Rough Grouse Society and the American

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Speaker 1: Woodcock Society. And what we're here to find out about

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Speaker 1: is this, are rough grouse screwed? If so, how screwed?

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Speaker 1: And what? Like? Why, what's it going to take? What

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Speaker 1: is the what is the future of the bird in America?

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Speaker 1: Before we're going to get into all that. Before we do,

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you a funny story. My friend Stu, who's

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Speaker 1: a trapper and saw the Illinois. He's been on the

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Speaker 1: show Stu Miller's Stu Miller Coon Creek Outdoor. He makes

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Speaker 1: some of the best if you want to see good

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Speaker 1: fur handling information online, I don't think anybody has better

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Speaker 1: for handling information than Stu Miller from Coon Creek Outdoors.

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Speaker 1: Like if you were like how do you skin and

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Speaker 1: flash and stretch and otter raccoon, kyote whatever. Stew Is

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Speaker 1: has a phenomenal series on YouTube. Anyhow, he was trapping

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Speaker 1: in Kansas. You know, skunks are real high right now?

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Speaker 1: All he wants to tail? Interesting, Okay, Stu said when

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Speaker 1: he was in Kansas, he was seeing dead skunks on

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Speaker 1: the side of the road. Road kills skunks on the

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Speaker 1: side of the road minus their tail. Now, everybody's used

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Speaker 1: to seeing deer on the side of the road somehow

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Speaker 1: minus their head, but skunk's minus their tail on the side.

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Speaker 2: I just saw a nice skunk on the side of

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Speaker 2: the road yesterday.

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Speaker 1: Because it could be thirty bucks laying they want the

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Speaker 1: tailor bill and if you cut the tail and you

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Speaker 1: learn what you're doing, you can cut it without getting

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Speaker 1: into the sacks. How many guys hop out and cut

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Speaker 1: a little too close to the base, yeah, and have

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Speaker 1: just a mess that they are not was it worth

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Speaker 1: the thirty bucks? Ready to deal with a right grade? Like? Like,

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Speaker 1: how are just before we get in all the details

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Speaker 1: like the in your organization? What is up with rough

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Speaker 1: grouse right now? I mean, why are we seeing like

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Speaker 1: like there's states that had rough grouse seasons that don't

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Speaker 1: have rough grouse seasons, like restrictions are down. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: just doesn't you know, it just doesn't feel like we're

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Speaker 1: in the good old days of rough grouse hunting. That

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Speaker 1: is true much of the country.

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Speaker 3: That is true, and I think, you know, as we

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Speaker 3: get into the topic at hand, I want to just

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Speaker 3: kind of like zoom back, and we're going to be

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Speaker 3: talking about rough grouse in American woodcock over the course

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Speaker 3: of this conversation, but I really want to frame it

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Speaker 3: in terms of what's going on with forests and forest

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Speaker 3: habitat and kind of the history of these forested ecosystems

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Speaker 3: focus primarily east of the Mississippi River, which is sort

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Speaker 3: of the core of what we think about being habitat

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Speaker 3: for rough grouse and American woodcock and the upland bird

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Speaker 3: hunting tradition that goes with it. Recognizing there's certainly plenty

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Speaker 3: of forest grouse west of the Mississippi as well, we

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Speaker 3: can talk about that too, But I think the history

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Speaker 3: of these forests and what the status of rough grouse

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Speaker 3: in American woodcock today tell us about the status of

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Speaker 3: these forests is the most important part of this conversation

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Speaker 3: because I think, you know, I'm somebody who loves these birds.

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Speaker 3: There's plenty of people out there who do, but there's

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Speaker 3: a lot more people that really appreciate forested ecosystems. And

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Speaker 3: being able to understand the dynamics of those places and

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Speaker 3: understand what we can and should be doing differently to

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Speaker 3: make sure that we leave these places better than we

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Speaker 3: found them is a much bigger and deeper and more

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Speaker 3: significant conversation than just what's the letter grade of current

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Speaker 3: status for rough grouse American woodcock? And those two things

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Speaker 3: are inextricably linked, So I really want to anchor into

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Speaker 3: kind of the history and status of forests. But to

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Speaker 3: answer your question.

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Speaker 1: Well, I want to say that opening bit, were you saying,

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Speaker 1: we can't talk about rough grouse without talking about forest

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Speaker 1: and forest health. Yeah. Now, if I had sat down

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Speaker 1: on my chair and the first thing out of your

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Speaker 1: mouth was we can't talk about rough grouse without talking

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Speaker 1: about mosquitoes and West Noile virus, or we can't talk

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Speaker 1: about rough grouse without talking about avian influenza, like, I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have been surprised.

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Speaker 3: Well, those things, we can talk about all those things,

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Speaker 3: And I thought you cheat.

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Speaker 1: It up like it's we're talking about we're talking about

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Speaker 1: We're talking about forests for sure.

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Speaker 3: And I love the fact that you're bringing up you're

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Speaker 3: bringing up west now virus, You're bringing up avian influenza.

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Speaker 3: West now virus, by the way, a way bigger deal

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Speaker 3: for rough grouse. And I want to talk a little

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Speaker 3: bit about the sort of moderating or mediating effect that

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Speaker 3: good habitat can have on helping a species like rough

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Speaker 3: grouse while facing a stressor like an expanding disease, which

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Speaker 3: west nolvirus is. And there's some really interesting interconnections between

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Speaker 3: habitat rough grouse abundance and distribution, and climate as well.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the.

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Speaker 3: Really great examples of how shifting climate can influence a

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Speaker 3: disease vector that has very clear ramifications for the status

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Speaker 3: of a species that many people care a lot about.

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Speaker 3: But at the bottom line, the story of how these

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Speaker 3: forests have changed, and I think even just the misconceptions

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Speaker 3: of what these forests are.

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Speaker 1: Is something that.

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Speaker 3: I think we can turn some light bulbs on for folks.

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Speaker 2: Can I tee you up like a lot with this

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Speaker 2: whole thing about like going back in time, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: why was it because like rough grouse, Like I feel

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Speaker 2: like the pin of their like popularity and like king

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Speaker 2: of the forest or you know, their nickname and all that.

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Speaker 2: Like that's like in the past, that reputation that they had.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's like a thing with hunters like

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Speaker 2: it used to be. Like why was it like when

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Speaker 2: my dad was like he was a big rough grouse hunter,

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Speaker 2: Like and why was it so good in the seventies

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Speaker 2: when he was out there in Pennsylvania and there was

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Speaker 2: just grouse everywhere?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like ammo Ads shot Ads were like the featured kidder.

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Speaker 1: It was like you go back far, no cottontail rabbits

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Speaker 1: and stuff. But there's a point where like ammo Ads

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Speaker 1: was like grouse the king of the game bird, which

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Speaker 1: which I was raised to call pats Yeah partridge.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a good debate. We grew up just I

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Speaker 3: was a little bit north in the northern lord.

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Speaker 1: Within that, like what is within that you got you

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Speaker 1: probably got a way to hit this, but like what

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Speaker 1: is the sort of timeline? And then also where are

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Speaker 1: we talking about? That might be the best thing, just

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Speaker 1: real quick, Yeah, where are we talking about? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: So I think focusing the conversation on the midwestern United States,

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Speaker 3: down into Ohio, Indiana, across into the mid Atlantic and

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Speaker 3: up into the Northeast main continues to have tremendous grouse hunting,

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Speaker 3: and down into the Appalachian Mountains as well. You know,

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Speaker 3: a lot of people associate rough grouse rightly so with

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Speaker 3: the presence of aspen. Aspen's one of those species for

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Speaker 3: grouse that provides tremendous cover and also availability of food.

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Speaker 3: But if you start looking at more southern grouse habitat essentially,

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Speaker 3: if you have good structure, if you have high stem densities,

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Speaker 3: and if you have the sun hitting the forest floor

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Speaker 3: and promoting robust availability of various massed species, you can

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Speaker 3: have grouse all the way down into northern Georgia. But

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Speaker 3: the general storyline, Brody, We could talk about Pennsylvania a

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Speaker 3: little bit as an example where just in the span

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Speaker 3: of the last handful of decades, any states, particularly at

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Speaker 3: the southern extent of their range, are seeing grouse decline rapidly,

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Speaker 3: and it's noteworthy. You know, a lot of folks understand

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Speaker 3: the dynamics around sage grouse decline. Like sage grouse get

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Speaker 3: a lot of attention rightly so. Sage grouse habitat sagebrush

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Speaker 3: ecosystems are tremendously imperiled for a variety of reasons. That

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Speaker 3: story is out there, and it's noteworthy to me that

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Speaker 3: you have this species. To your point, Brody, that like

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Speaker 3: in your dad's generation in Art, in our father's generations,

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Speaker 3: grouse were.

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Speaker 1: A big deal.

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Speaker 3: And I think the simplest and best answer to why

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Speaker 3: that's not the case is that fewer and fewer people

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Speaker 3: have access to robust populations. Now where I spend a

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Speaker 3: lot of my time grouse and woodcock hunting, which is

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Speaker 3: across the northern tier of Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. We

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Speaker 3: are still in the good old days. It's phenomenal and

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Speaker 3: I had great, rough.

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Speaker 1: Good old days relative even to the good old days.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and there's a cyclical dynamic at play

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Speaker 3: with grouse woodcock, So just a sort of if we

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Speaker 3: step back and look at the big picture, the general

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Speaker 3: story is one of decline for both of these species,

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Speaker 3: having nothing to do with hunting pressure, having everything to

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Speaker 3: do with habitat and also some of these other variables,

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Speaker 3: Like we can talk about the disease issues, but habitat

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Speaker 3: is the bottom line, and at the southern extent of

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Speaker 3: their range where we start getting into some of the

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Speaker 3: more acute issues with disease dynamics, the influence of climate.

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Speaker 3: So Pennsylvania, for example, there's a really important elevational gradient

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Speaker 3: at play here where you know, you can think about

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Speaker 3: grouse contracting northward, so sort of retreating from a latitude perspective.

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Speaker 3: But then there's all this also, this elevational retreat that's

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Speaker 3: occurring where grouse are being pushed higher and higher is

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Speaker 3: one of the same, right right, exactly, because those climatic

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Speaker 3: variables are influencing the availability of habitat, and in the

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Speaker 3: case of West Nile virus, the presence of the mosquitos

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Speaker 3: that carry West Nile is influenced by longer, wetter summers,

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Speaker 3: so you have the disease sort of marching up slope

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Speaker 3: as climates continue.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned aspens for grouse, Like can you give people

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Speaker 2: like what is like the ideal chunk of rough grouse habitat?

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Speaker 2: What's it look like? Because you hear like early success, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: a lot like things like that, Like if people aren't

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Speaker 2: seeing them or around them as much anymore, Like what

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Speaker 2: does a good chunk of grouse habitat look like Yeah.

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Speaker 3: If I have one word to answer that question, the

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Speaker 3: answers young, young forest habitat super important. Yes, Early successional

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Speaker 3: habitat is very important in a lot of the work

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Speaker 3: that we do at the rough Grouse Society. In American

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Speaker 3: Woodcock Society is focused on trying to get more early

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Speaker 3: successional habitat on the ground. The reason for that is

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Speaker 3: not because early successional habitat is the only thing that matters.

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Speaker 3: The reason for that is that we are limited in

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Speaker 3: early successional habitat. We're an organization that's very interested in

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Speaker 3: overall forest health, and in terms of these eastern forests,

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Speaker 3: the bottom line there is diversity of habitat. We want

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Speaker 3: young forest, we want middle aged forest, we want old forest,

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Speaker 3: and we want these things in a juxtaposition where in

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Speaker 3: individual grouse, because these birds have a very strong site fidelity,

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Speaker 3: they do not travel to great distances, but having the

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Speaker 3: access to these different age classes over the course of

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Speaker 3: their life cycle for foraging, for raising their broods, for

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Speaker 3: escaping predators. It's that availability of diverse habitat within a

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Speaker 3: small area and being able to maintain that over time

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Speaker 3: is a huge part of the challenge. Right, So if

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Speaker 3: we go back, if we go back and think about

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Speaker 3: what these forests were like centuries ago, this idea of

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Speaker 3: diversity is critically important, and I think one of the

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Speaker 3: I'll give you two misconceptions when it comes to forests.

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Speaker 3: Number one, I think a lot of people when they

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Speaker 3: step into the forests, like where we grew up, Steve,

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Speaker 3: or where you grew up Brody, Michigan, Pennsylvania, you walk

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Speaker 3: into the woods and it's this peaceful, serene, beautiful place,

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Speaker 3: and it's easy to fall into the trap of failing

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Speaker 3: to recognize the complexity, for one, the interconnections among different

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Speaker 3: species in that system, and then also the fact that

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Speaker 3: there is a constant battle playing out among all of

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Speaker 3: these species at a time scale that makes it hard

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Speaker 3: for us to perceive. So everybody in the forest, woody vegetation, grasses, forbs, shrubs,

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Speaker 3: all the plants from the understory to the canopy are

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Speaker 3: duking it out in real time for access to nutrients,

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Speaker 3: access to sunlight. And historically in these forests there were

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Speaker 3: a lot of drivers of disturbance that are gone now.

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Speaker 3: And this is one of the things that I think

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Speaker 3: is both most interesting and also saddest to contemplate when

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Speaker 3: you think about the forests of the eastern United States,

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Speaker 3: and again I'm thinking like east of the Mississippi River.

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Speaker 3: And when the first European settlers arrived on the East coast,

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Speaker 3: they did not arrive to some massive, homogeneous, pristine, untouched forest.

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Speaker 3: What they arrived two was a very complex system that

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Speaker 3: had a tremendous diversity of drivers influencing the structure of

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Speaker 3: that forest, and it included wildlife that we all I

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Speaker 3: think we can think about these species in their own right,

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Speaker 3: but we don't often think about them as drivers of ecosystems.

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Speaker 3: So species like elk, species like bison, species like beavers,

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Speaker 3: species like passenger pigeons, and also the people who are

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Speaker 3: already here burning these landscapes to benefit those species I

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Speaker 3: just mentioned, particularly elk and bison, but maintaining the landscape

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Speaker 3: in a way that made their lives possible. So you

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Speaker 3: have all of these interesting connections between those inhabitants of

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Speaker 3: the North American continent that have been tremendously disrupted. So

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Speaker 3: elk largely gone from the east, although amazing work being done.

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Speaker 3: Of course, we're all familiar with Rocky Mountain, Elk Foundation

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Speaker 3: and the work that they're doing with state agency partners

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Speaker 3: to bring elk back. That's phenomenal. RF is a great

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Speaker 3: partner of ours, by the way, a lot of partnership

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Speaker 3: opportunities there. We're talking about el ca habitat and grouse

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Speaker 3: habitat in the same breath, Bison gone, passenger pigeons gone

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Speaker 3: gone right, and beaver's like nothing like they were at

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Speaker 3: European contact with this continent, and then indigenous fire largely gone.

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Speaker 3: So these five drivers that created all of this heterogeneity,

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Speaker 3: all of this diversity in structure, and the one that

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Speaker 3: I really wanted, like we can if any of those geeks,

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Speaker 3: either of you guys out and you want to dig

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Speaker 3: deeper into any of them, we can dig deeper. But

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Speaker 3: I want to talk about passenger pigeons just for a minute,

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Speaker 3: because I think a lot of folks, you know, we all,

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Speaker 3: if you're a nerd around conservation and wildlife in America,

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Speaker 3: we all know the stories of like the sky blackening

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Speaker 3: and the rivers of birds, and John James Audubon and

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Speaker 3: others trying to come up with estimates of the billions

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Speaker 3: of passenger pigeons, like one in four land birds in

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Speaker 3: North America being a passenger pigeon, right, just like you

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Speaker 3: can't wrap your head around it. Those are all stories

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Speaker 3: that are really familiar to us. But I want to

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Speaker 3: flag one of the most sort of haunting books that

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00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,640
Speaker 3: folks probably haven't heard of, written by a guy named

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Speaker 3: Peter Matheson, called Wildlife in America. And in that book,

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Speaker 3: Matheson does a phenomenal job of capturing the stories in

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Speaker 3: just the most haunting and poetic language around the loss

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Speaker 3: of wildlife on this continent over the span of the

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Speaker 3: last handful of centuries. And one of the things that's

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Speaker 3: most memorable about that book for me is the way

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Speaker 3: that he talks about the passenger pigeons and them as

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Speaker 3: a driver of disturbance. And this is the important part.

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Speaker 3: And there are stories like up around Potoski Mischig of

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Speaker 3: these that's what the last big shoot was well, and

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Speaker 3: these nesting events that would span for tens of miles

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Speaker 3: in length and multiple miles in width where the forest

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Speaker 3: was absolutely inundated and in some cases decimated by the

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Speaker 3: presence of nesting passenger pigeons, so they would come through.

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Speaker 3: And these were birds that were heavily dependent on mast

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Speaker 3: species like oak species like beach species like American chestnut,

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Speaker 3: And there's a whole other story of loss right the

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Speaker 3: loss of chestnut to the blight starting in nineteen oh four.

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Speaker 3: But the passenger pigeons, they'd find a place where they

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Speaker 3: had the resources that they would need to nest. They

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Speaker 3: had the structural support with the tree canopy, they had

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Speaker 3: availability of masts, et cetera. And they would they would

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Speaker 3: arrive in such numbers that they would physically level portions

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Speaker 3: of the forest. Like if you were out there during

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Speaker 3: one of these nesting events, you would just hear from

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Speaker 3: miles in any direction the sound of branches breaking, of

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Speaker 3: trees falling, of guano raining down to the point where

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Speaker 3: the forest floor would have inches of accumulated droppings that

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Speaker 3: would be so high in nutrient content that that would

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Speaker 3: have its own set of effects on vegetation, like basically

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Speaker 3: killing the understory because it was so nutrient rich with

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Speaker 3: all this pigeon guano raining down, And the birds themselves

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Speaker 3: would reset succession in those places where they would nest.

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Speaker 3: The next year, they're not coming back to nest in

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Speaker 3: that same spot again, but years down the line, those

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Speaker 3: systems would recover and promote the availability of the very

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Speaker 3: habitat features that the passenger pigeons need to thrive. So

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Speaker 3: if you step back and think about the continental scale

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Speaker 3: of that species interacting with the land, it's not unlike

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Speaker 3: any a beaver or any other ecosystem engineer, where they're

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Speaker 3: influencing their own habitat in a way that benefits themselves

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Speaker 3: over time, over generations, right, but also influences the structure

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Speaker 3: to the advantage of all of these other plant and

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Speaker 3: animal species that occupy that habitat. And that's just one

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Speaker 3: of the five examples that I gave you. You know,

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Speaker 3: we can talk about bison and they're wallowing, or the

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Speaker 3: fact that they established these movement corridors that were the

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Speaker 3: precursors to a lot of our roads and highways, right

386
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Speaker 3: roads exactly the traces right the buffalo traces they would leave.

387
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Speaker 3: They would leave a path of disruption. And so this idea,

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Speaker 3: and this is one of the biggest challenges if you

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Speaker 3: think about current conditioning these systems now and trying to

390
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Speaker 3: get good habitat back on the ground for species like

391
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Speaker 3: rough grouse in American woodcock, there's this misconception of what

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Speaker 3: forests are which I touched on, like failing to see

393
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Speaker 3: the fact that all of these species are out there,

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Speaker 3: that the vegetation is battling for resources in real time,

395
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Speaker 3: and the reality that for thousands of years, for hundreds

396
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 3: of thousands of years prior to European settlement of this continent,

397
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Speaker 3: these forests were tremendously disrupted by a whole host of

398
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Speaker 3: drivers that have been eliminated from the system. So what

399
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Speaker 3: that means in terms of current context is if we're

400
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 3: taking a hands off approach to these systems, we are

401
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,400
Speaker 3: starving them of the things that they need, the things

402
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 3: that the forest needs to provide the types of habitat

403
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Speaker 3: and diversity, not just for rough grouse in American woodcock,

404
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 3: as much as I love those two species, but for

405
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 3: a whole host of plant and animal species. And this

406
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 3: is why if we look at land bird conservation more broadly,

407
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Speaker 3: I've got to copy of the twenty twenty five US

408
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 3: State of the Birds Report here in front of me.

409
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Speaker 3: Any bird species that depends upon that diversity of habitat

410
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 3: in a forested context is struggling, like we are seeing

411
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Speaker 3: tremendous loss. Like think about Whipperwill's. They're a good example.

412
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Speaker 3: When you grew up you're hearing that whipper will whipper

413
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Speaker 3: will call yeah, And now if you hear when you're like, oh,

414
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Speaker 3: you know, that was like the sound of summer in

415
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 3: our childhoods. Right, they have dropped off a cliff, and

416
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Speaker 3: we could go through the list. Golden wing warblers are

417
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 3: one that's commonly brought up, so it's important to recognize,

418
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Speaker 3: and I think from the standpoint of our organization too,

419
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 3: there's an advantage of being able to sort of hitch

420
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 3: our wagon up to these two iconic upland game bird species.

421
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Speaker 3: But I also want to make sure that people understand

422
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,120
Speaker 3: the why of our work is about much more than

423
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 3: thinking about having lots of grouse and woodcock to hunt.

424
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Speaker 3: What we're trying to do is find ways to redeem

425
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 3: our responsibilities to the places that we love and help

426
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 3: leave these forested ecosystems in a state that's going to

427
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 3: be better for wildlife and for people into the future.

428
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 3: So that's a that's I think a good entry point

429
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 3: into this conversation about current condition for those couple of.

430
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Speaker 2: Species you you mentioned disturbance being important, and like, if

431
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 2: you talk to a couple of my buddies in Pennsylvania

432
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Speaker 2: that are still like die hard grouse hunters despite yeah,

433
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 2: the fact that they might only flush a few birds

434
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 2: in an entire season. Yeah, Like it's always like they

435
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 2: don't log enough, they don't log enough, they don't log enough.

436
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 1: Like is that like?

437
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 2: And I know like West Nile and Avian flu like

438
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 2: play a role, but like, is that perspective from just

439
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: like a grouse hunter? Is there a lot of.

440
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 1: Truth to that? There is?

441
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 3: And I think the language is really important too, And

442
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 3: I'm just thinking about the way that we frame up

443
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 3: this work. And you know, logging, logging can be a

444
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 3: terrible thing, and it can be a tremendous thing. And

445
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 3: part of the problem is when it comes to social

446
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 3: license and public discourse around what doing right by these

447
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 3: forest means. There's not enough time or effort put into

448
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 3: having like a really thoughtful, nuanced conversation about what it

449
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 3: is we're talking about. So logging, Like, let's talk about

450
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 3: logging part of the challenge.

451
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: And like I'll just to clarify, we're talking about logging.

452
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 1: You're talking about there's these historic forest disturbers, YEP passenger pigeons,

453
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: fire by health beaver. Yeah, beaver's large animals that are

454
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: like out disturbing forests, grazing, bowling stuff over, knocking stuff down,

455
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: clearing stuff out, and over time we've developed a system

456
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 1: where we have one a lot of those places become

457
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 1: paved over or grassed over, or golf coursed over, or

458
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: parking lotted over or subdivisioned over, and so they're out. Yep,

459
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: that's all just out. What remains is wood lots. At times,

460
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: wood lots that aren't having habitat disturbance on them. They grow, grow, grow,

461
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: grow grow yep. Right, yep. So when we talk about

462
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: just for people, just for listeners, don't stand when we

463
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: talk about logging, I mean, Carl get into it, but

464
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: we're what we're talking about is like a modern disturbance driver. Yep. Right.

465
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: So when Brody's saying, if a rough grouse sky, if

466
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: a rough grouse hunter, or a guy in Lower you know,

467
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: the northern Lower Peninsula, Michigan where I grew up, when

468
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: we bitch about that there's no logging, yep. What we're

469
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: saying is there's it's not that we you know, it's

470
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: not like you know, I used to cut fire with ice,

471
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: be a tree surgeon. I understand the siren song or

472
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: the chainsaw. Right, nothing brings the old man out of you. Yeah,

473
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: anohing brings an old man out of his house, right,

474
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: hearing the chainsaw down the road. So, but when people talk,

475
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: they're not they're not lamenting the act of logging, right,

476
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: they're not necessarily meant lamenting the loss of jobs around logging.

477
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: What they're talking about is they're lamenting what happens after

478
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: you log, yeah, which is you invite a lot of

479
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: sunlight onto the forest floor and it grows up thick.

480
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: The kind of stuff where if you're out walking around

481
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: with your wife, you just go around, right, you go

482
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: around it, unless he's crossing with you, man, you might

483
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: go unless like yeah, the kind of stuff that the

484
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: only business you have going through it is grouse right,

485
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: like that thick right right, and that so we talked

486
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,719
Speaker 1: about logging. We're talking about is the thick the period

487
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: of carver tells how many years. It's a long time. Yeah,

488
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: it's enough to like kind of get used to it

489
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: where you have a thick stuff. Yeah.

490
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 3: Well, I really appreciate this question because I want to

491
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 3: I want to go back to this idea of the

492
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 3: forests that were you know, pre pre European settlement, all

493
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 3: that disturbance happening, and then there's a really important story

494
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 3: that we can't lose track of. Where this word logging, right,

495
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 3: What I want to get at is the idea that

496
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 3: not all, not all logging is the same.

497
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

498
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 3: Sure, And so if we go back to this arc

499
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 3: of time post European settlement and think about the things

500
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 3: that happened on these forests from east to west and

501
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 3: the wholesale liquidation of forest resources, I mean, like the

502
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 3: most sort of vivid, powerful example of intensive resource extraction

503
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 3: that you can imagine, right, This is when the White

504
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 3: Pines of the Lake States, our childhood home range, Steve,

505
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 3: when those forests were being liquidated. This is the chapter

506
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 3: of the Northeast and mid Atlantic and the declining chestnuts

507
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 3: being felled, and all of the clearing for agriculture, and

508
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 3: all the fragmentation that was happening, the forests just being liquidated,

509
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 3: building the cities of Chicago, all the lumber that was

510
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 3: being shipped across the Great Lakes to build these exploding communities.

511
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 3: It was a period of tremendous exploitation of the land.

512
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 3: And I think that's one of the problems is when

513
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 3: people think about word like logging, what a lot of.

514
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,239
Speaker 1: Folks here is exploitation, right.

515
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 3: So it's important to honor the reality that in a

516
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 3: lot of places in our country we do not have

517
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 3: a long history. Man, We're talking about a few centuries here,

518
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 3: and so for the majority of that time, we have

519
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 3: not had our act together in terms of how we

520
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 3: think about logging being done in service to the land

521
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 3: as opposed to being a source of exploitation of the land.

522
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 3: So I want to make sure we paint this picture

523
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 3: with a lot of intent, and we have to own

524
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 3: the fact that places like I'm thinking about the Monongahila

525
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 3: National Forest as an example right now in West Virginia,

526
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 3: where on Forest Service land like there was clear cutting,

527
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 3: there was a tremendous amount of erosion, there were huge

528
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 3: impacts to these incredibly biod verse streams. A legacy of

529
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,479
Speaker 3: terrible management, you can't even call it management, a legacy

530
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 3: of exploitation of forest resources. And if I think back

531
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 3: to like I remember being in maybe sixth or seventh

532
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 3: grade and them talking about logging the rainforest, right, and

533
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,479
Speaker 3: how much rainforest is being lost in Brazil, And you know,

534
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 3: every day there's this many square miles of rainforest being

535
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 3: cut down, spotted out on the sure the spotted owl

536
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 3: wars man like Pacific Northwest. This tension between trying to

537
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 3: keep an imperiled species on the landscape and that industry

538
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 3: that's like the backbone of those rural Northwest communities. So

539
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 3: there's all this history that gets wrapped up in this

540
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 3: word logging, right, that you have to be eyes wide

541
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 3: open about. And I think it's also a fallacy to

542
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 3: suggest that all logging that's happening today is good logging.

543
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 3: There are plenty of examples where people are high grading forests.

544
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 3: They're just basically thinking about they're thinking about what value

545
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 3: can be taken from this land now, as opposed to

546
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 3: thinking about what forest conditions for the future am I

547
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:17,479
Speaker 3: trying to create. That's a very important distinction. And that's

548
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 3: not to say that it's impossible to extract value, like

549
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 3: monetary value from a forest and also put that forest

550
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 3: on a trajectory to be healthier as a result of

551
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 3: that intervention. That is one hundred percent possible. In order

552
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 3: to do that, though you need robust industry, like there

553
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 3: has to be a market. You cannot move habitat without

554
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 3: being able to move wood and the forest products industry

555
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 3: is in a difficult state of affairs right now. So

556
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 3: there's a lot of smart people putting a lot of

557
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 3: thought into how to revitalize the forest products industry. But

558
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 3: just in the past week, I read in my home

559
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 3: state of Wisconsin. Now there's a little mill up in

560
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 3: the town of Mozennie, where by the way, I chased

561
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 3: a couple of bears around as a grad student. Right

562
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 3: there in Mosany, they are shutting down a couple of

563
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 3: their their paper production machines and and they're going to

564
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 3: be jobs lost. There's going to be an impact at

565
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 3: this Mosan email. And that's just the most recent in

566
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 3: a long string of mill reductions, mill closures, the disruption

567
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 3: of these these forest products industries that are important for

568
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 3: so many reasons. But one aspect of it is this

569
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 3: relationship between habitat and rural economies. So being able to

570
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 3: find ways to reinvigorate the forest products industry. And there's

571
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 3: some cool examples of things on the horizon, things in

572
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 3: the works, things like mass timber, trying to trying to

573
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 3: replace steel in the construction of high rise buildings with

574
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 3: mass timber. And there's there's an amazing building in down

575
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 3: On Milwaukee that was just constructed using essentially replacements for

576
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 3: where you'd have steel beams using these laminated wood products.

577
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 3: So that's an example. There's a push to find ways

578
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 3: to convert woody biomass into sustainable aviation fuel. That's a

579
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 3: budding industry. There's some amazing work going on looking at

580
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 3: very high quality packaging being derived from molded wood fiber,

581
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 3: so trying to replace all the plastic that we have

582
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 3: everywhere around us all the time. Basically anywhere you see plastic,

583
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 3: there's probably a potential to replace that plastic with a

584
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 3: molded wood fiber product. So there's reasons for optimism, but

585
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 3: in terms of the overall picture of the forest products industry,

586
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 3: there's a lot of reason for concern right now and

587
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 3: a lot of reason for action in terms of policy,

588
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 3: in terms of having conversations with the public around the

589
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:08,399
Speaker 3: importance of these concepts. But this idea that logging has

590
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 3: the potential to be good and grouse hunters grumbling like man,

591
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 3: there hasn't been enough logging. What I hope they mean is,

592
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 3: and what I think they mean, and what I mean

593
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 3: when I say that is there hasn't been enough active

594
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 3: forest management where we are thinking both about what value

595
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 3: are we extracting from these systems, and I would argue,

596
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 3: even more importantly, thinking about our long term commitment and

597
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 3: responsibility these places, and what are we leaving behind.

598
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: I think that's the key question.

599
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 3: If you're focused, if you're focused more on what you're

600
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 3: taking than what you're leaving behind, you're probably looking at

601
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 3: it from a more extractive standpoint. If you're thinking about

602
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 3: both of those things in concert, that's a beautiful space

603
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 3: to operate. And I think we've got a ton of

604
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 3: examples of the kind of work that we're doing on

605
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,280
Speaker 3: public land on private land with a lot of partners

606
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 3: to derive both forms of value.

607
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: I think about our go ahead, but you know, think

608
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: about our mutual friend Doug. Yeah, yeah, no, he needs

609
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 1: to make he manages a family farm, yeah, spending their

610
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: family a long time. He needs to make the farm

611
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: pay yeah, right right. They do timber harvest. Absolutely. This

612
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: is very small scale in terms of talking about the

613
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: entire everything east of the Mississippi. It's a little, it's

614
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: a little, it's a perfect little chunk. But when you're

615
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: looking at what Doug's gonna cut, he's explaining to you

616
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 1: what it's gonna look like in five years? Right? Do

617
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 1: you follow what I'm saying. He's like, he's got he's

618
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: got a dollar figure rolling to his head, but he's like,

619
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: and it'll be like this, yes, and then I'm gonna

620
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,399
Speaker 1: do yes. You know what I'm saying, I do. And Doug.

621
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 3: You know, I was just with Doug this past weekend.

622
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 3: We're both up in Minneapolis at Pheasant Fest, and I

623
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 3: was talking with Doug. Doug is Doug is absolutely emblematic

624
00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 3: of that philosophy where, yeah, he's got the farm, he

625
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 3: needs to make it pay. He agonized over decisions about

626
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 3: whether to cut down some of the oak trees that

627
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,959
Speaker 3: they harvested that were, you know, there for generations prior

628
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 3: to him showing up. But he's making those decisions with

629
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 3: an eye on the financial side of it, which is

630
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 3: one hundred percent his responsibility, and also thinking about that

631
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 3: that legacy. You know, it's not ours, it's it's our turn.

632
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 3: What is he doing to make sure that the folks

633
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 3: who have the next turn are grateful?

634
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 1: In hindsight, Let's be clear, too, Doug agonizes over what

635
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 1: to do about mud puddles. Well, but on the one hand,

636
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: but but he's coming at He's coming at it from

637
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: that space, man, and I think you know that.

638
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 3: So on the private land context, this is one of

639
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 3: the things. This is one of the reasons why I

640
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 3: think there's a lot of a lot of room for

641
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 3: optimism and hope as you have so many people who

642
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 3: cherish these forests for which they have personal responsibility, and

643
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 3: there's value in the forest products, and there's a need

644
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 3: for good intervention in those systems. And again, this isn't

645
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 3: a new thing, right, It's not a new thing for

646
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 3: humans to be looking at the land and trying to

647
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 3: figure out how to engage with it in a way

648
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 3: that makes the land better and makes the humans' lives better.

649
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 3: That's actually, like, that's the story of our species for millennia, right,

650
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 3: We've been in the business of manipulating the ecosystem to

651
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 3: benefit ourselves. Unfortunately, we're at a period in human history

652
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 3: now where fewer and fewer of us have those levers

653
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 3: of responsibility at our fingertips. And there are also a

654
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 3: lot of people who have those levers of responsibility at

655
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 3: their fingertips who.

656
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 1: Don't know what to do right.

657
00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 3: They don't know how to care for a forest they

658
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 3: haven't been taught that, you know, the expertise that somebody

659
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 3: like Doug has the training and the knowledge. He is

660
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 3: an outlier in that regard. But where I think he

661
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 3: is not an outlier is in having a desire to

662
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 3: do the right thing for the forest under his purview.

663
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 3: I think a lot of folks want to do the

664
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 3: right thing but don't know where to start. So for

665
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 3: an organization like ours, being able to work with those

666
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 3: private landowners and help them think through how to generate

667
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 3: revenue from their forest, but doing that through the lens

668
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 3: of what are they leaving in terms of future habitat value?

669
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 3: That is a really cool service. And you know we're

670
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 3: doing that in a private lands context as well with

671
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 3: agencies like the Forest Service, like state departments of natural Resources,

672
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 3: where we're helping them implement their management plans which are

673
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 3: always rooted in this idea of sustainable and wise use

674
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 3: but also desired future conditions. So those are really good spaces.

675
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 2: So where does the like, where does the wildlife co

676
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 2: oponent come in? Like from fishing game agencies, like are

677
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 2: they in? Are they like we want to improve this

678
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 2: for grouse and everything else? But like say Pennsylvania game commissioner.

679
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 2: Do they come to you guys and say, this patch

680
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 2: of forests like used to be good for grouse, we'd

681
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 2: like it to return to being good for grouse. Like

682
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 2: is that stuff that you guys do like working with

683
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 2: game agencies?

684
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: Totally? But wasn't it historically? Though? If you think of

685
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: the metaphor of like, you know, people say, like the

686
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: tailwag and the dog. For a long time the dog,

687
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 1: the dog was industry. They inadvertently, they accidentally created great habitat.

688
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 1: I would think the history this big chunk of ground

689
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: right like that we would walk over and hunt as

690
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: a kid. Had it always been the property of this

691
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: summer camp. I'm sure historically had been logged, but it

692
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 1: hadn't been logged in forever. And it was giant oaks

693
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: with canopies that interlocked. Yeah, and there was no now

694
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: and then the sassafrass, maybe a big white pine. But

695
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: for the most part it was just wide open and

696
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: the ground was covered in like inches of oak leaves.

697
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: It had squirrels in it, but there was nothing. There

698
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: was not much in there. It sold. The first thing

699
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 1: I did was do a timber harvest. A couple of

700
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 1: years after that timber harvest, the first time we ever

701
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: ever saw a deer in there, the first time we

702
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: ever ever saw a ruffed grouse in there, all kind

703
00:43:54,080 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 1: of grape vine, multi floor rows, thickets, and then wham houses.

704
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: But you, but you. It was like no one was saying, Hey,

705
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to go do timber stand improvement on the

706
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: old summer camp. It was inadvertent yep. So people when

707
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,320
Speaker 1: we talk about like the return of logging or forest

708
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 1: service products, we're talking about like like making the dog healthy. Yeah. Yeah.

709
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, you hear a lot about

710
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:31,240
Speaker 1: like like habitat work, But imagine habitat work is limited

711
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: in scale because it's not financing itself. Yeah, I see

712
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 1: where you're going what I'm saying. So is it more

713
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: so in restoring forests or restoring forests to have successional

714
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,280
Speaker 1: forests where you have these patchworks of different things happening,

715
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: Like can you even get at can you scale conservation

716
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:56,800
Speaker 1: work or will that never work? You'd have to scale industry.

717
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 3: I love the language of making the dog healthy again. Yeah,

718
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 3: I think that's a really good way of looking at it, because.

719
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 1: That's a broad he's bringing up. He's bringing up well,

720
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: how about when the dog wags, when the tail wags dog,

721
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: when we do like habitat work, which would woud up

722
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: being like a little chunk, yeah or whatever. I don't know,

723
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 1: maybe maybe not.

724
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 2: I mean maybe like if agencies are flush with money.

725
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, And there's a lot of different directions we

726
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 3: could go here. So so let me just focus in

727
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 3: on this idea of trying to scale up conservation outcomes

728
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 3: and forested habitats.

729
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: I like that conservation outcomes. Yeah, and.

730
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 3: It's expensive work. Yeah, Like a lot of the things

731
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 3: that we do, we're involved in non native invasive species

732
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:49,720
Speaker 3: control like buckthorn removal or timber stand improvement treatments prescribe fire.

733
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 3: Just to give folks like a sense of the cost

734
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,479
Speaker 3: of some of these treatments. Imagine anywhere between like five

735
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 3: hundred dollars an acre and a couple thousand bucks an

736
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 3: acre to do a treatment, right, Like, no one's making profit, No,

737
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,879
Speaker 3: this is so this is where there's it's non commercial work.

738
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 3: Like if we're if we're contracting or if we're going

739
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 3: in and trying to like have people in there with

740
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 3: like a hand felling crew with chainsaws trying to implement

741
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 3: a habitat project where there's not a commercial angle. It

742
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 3: is expensive, it is tremendously difficult to scale that up.

743
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 1: I'll give you a.

744
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 3: Contrasting model that I think is really powerful and really cool.

745
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 3: We've got a number of national forests where we're partnering

746
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 3: on stewardship agreements, where the Forest Service has the ability

747
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 3: to hand responsibility over for the administration of timber sales

748
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 3: to a nonprofit organization like ours. We can administer the

749
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 3: timber sale, generate revenue through the timber, cover all the

750
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 3: administrative costs of handling the sale, and then also have

751
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,439
Speaker 3: in some cases hundreds of thousands of dollars left over

752
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 3: from the value in that timber that we can put

753
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 3: right into the ground.

754
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 1: Why are they letting you do that? That's great, but

755
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: I could picture an reasons They're not going to want

756
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 1: to do that. Well, so think about it. Think about it.

757
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: They they have.

758
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 3: More work to do on these forests than they can

759
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 3: get done. They have backlogs of habitat need, they have

760
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 3: limited capacity. And the way to look at it is

761
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,760
Speaker 3: not that somehow a nonprofit organization like the Rough Grouse

762
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 3: Society is somehow benefiting in isolation. The way to look

763
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 3: at it is we have such alignment with the Forest

764
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 3: Service in mission delivery that we are joined at the

765
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 3: hip trying to implement the Forest Service's mission. We're there

766
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 3: providing additional capacity and that revenue. To be clear, that

767
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 3: revenue is not coming to the Rough Grouse Society and

768
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 3: American Woodcock Society. It's paying for our staff time to

769
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 3: help do that work. Like we have as an example,

770
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 3: we have an amazing young forester on the Green Mountain

771
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 3: National Forest, young lady named Mellie Napper, who's spent administering

772
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 3: timber sales on the Green Mountain National Forest, and she

773
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 3: basically functions as a Forest Service employee. She's there at

774
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,240
Speaker 3: the office, she's out painting the sale, she's administering the sale,

775
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 3: interacting with the folks who are executing on the sale.

776
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 3: She's fielding questions from the public. She's talking to reporters

777
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 3: about the why of the work. She's representing our organization

778
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 3: and the Forest Service, and even more importantly, she's representing

779
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,959
Speaker 3: the story about why this work is so important, which

780
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 3: is a win for everybody involved. And in a period

781
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,320
Speaker 3: of time where the Forest Service cannot hire additional people,

782
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,879
Speaker 3: they don't have enough people to implement their mission. Being

783
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 3: able to work with a partner to fill some of

784
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 3: those gaps. That is a win for the Forest Service.

785
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 2: When you get guys do that does the logging like

786
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 2: the whoever gets the actual logging work the concession for that.

787
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 2: Do they do that work differently than they would if

788
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 2: they weren't working through you, like if they were just

789
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 2: like for a service timbersale, we're going in and we're

790
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 2: getting our stuff versus for a service timbersale through the

791
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 2: rough grouse aside.

792
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 3: No, they do it the same. And here's why. In

793
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 3: order for that sale to move forward, it has to

794
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 3: be cleared through the exact same process that any other

795
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 3: activity on the forest.

796
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 2: So they're not going in there, you're not, like, this

797
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 2: is kind of the habitat results we're looking.

798
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: For in advance.

799
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 3: No, and in this case, like so this this example

800
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 3: on the Green Mountain National Forest.

801
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,280
Speaker 1: Where's that National Forest? It's in Vermont?

802
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 3: And the decision in that case, I might have a

803
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 3: word slightly off, but I believe the name of this

804
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 3: project is the Early Successional Attack Creation Project.

805
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 1: Love the Forest Service right to the point.

806
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and and and you know, and in Forest Service parlance,

807
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 3: you have what's called an interdisciplinary team that gets together

808
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 3: to develop a proposed action. So you have biologists and

809
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 3: soil scientists and silviculturists and folks who are experts on

810
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 3: heritage and our responsibilities uh to archaeological resources, et cetera.

811
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 3: Everybody gets together and looks at a piece of ground

812
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 3: and says, all right, what do we want to do here.

813
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 3: In the case of a project like this early successional

814
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 3: habitat creation project, the biologists are the ones in the

815
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 3: driver's seat. There it's a veg management project, right, there's

816
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 3: and there's valuable timber being harvested, but the whole focus

817
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 3: is on what kind of trees, like what are we

818
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:47,800
Speaker 3: leaving behind in the in the wake of this treatment?

819
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 3: And that's that's what that's the language that we use.

820
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 3: It's a treatment as opposed to an exploitation of a resource.

821
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 1: Right.

822
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 3: So in that case, you have the sale, you have

823
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:00,800
Speaker 3: someone bid, right, it's open to public bidding.

824
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 1: You have an operator business coming into bidding.

825
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're there to make money, right, And they are

826
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,320
Speaker 3: there to make money and also they are the source

827
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 3: of capacity to implement the vege management outcome. Period Without

828
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 3: industry we cannot get the work done. But in this model,

829
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 3: you're leveraging the value in the timber to pay for

830
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 3: all of those administrative costs, and then you have this

831
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 3: surplus of value. And this is the really cool part.

832
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 3: And in some cases we're talking literally hundreds of thousands

833
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 3: of dollars from some of these timber sales. Where you

834
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 3: then turn around and say, all right, with this money,

835
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 3: what other good things do we want to do on

836
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 3: the forest. So it could be things like replacing undersized

837
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 3: culverts at roadstream crossings to promote aquatic organism passage. It

838
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 3: could be paying for decommissioning roads that are resulting in

839
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 3: stream sedimentation. It could be helping cover the cost of

840
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,479
Speaker 3: a prescribed fire. It could be helping treat non native

841
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 3: invasive species, etc.

842
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 1: Etc. Et cetera.

843
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 3: So in that model, the forest services were lying on

844
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 3: partner organizations like ours to unlock the value in the

845
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 3: timber in a way that leaves the forest habitat better.

846
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 3: So that to me, like, that's the dog as healthy

847
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 3: as the dog can be, and the tail also like

848
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 3: really benefiting from the healthy dog. But you got to

849
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 3: have industry there to be able to have in the

850
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 3: green River Forest.

851
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: What is the product the Green Mountain? What is the

852
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 1: product they're cranking out that, like dimensional lumber? Yeah, probably hard,

853
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: They're hard. They're they're harvesting hardwood there primarily. Yeah. Okay,

854
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:33,319
Speaker 1: so like veneer logs and trim and whatever else.

855
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 3: Yep, yeah, got it. Yeah, I mean pulp. You know,

856
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 3: the pulp market has been one of the real weak spots.

857
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 1: So why why is that? Well huge cause because like

858
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 1: we're you know, you know, we grew up in the

859
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,799
Speaker 1: same area. Yeah, when stuff got when stuff happened there,

860
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 1: it was pulp, right, yeah, cutting pulp. Man that with

861
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 1: all that great rough grouse country and like the up

862
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,280
Speaker 1: or Northern Lower Peninsula was like cutting pulp. It was pulp.

863
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 1: And you were looking at stuff you weren't looking when

864
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:03,240
Speaker 1: you were a kid and you were looking at logging.

865
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:05,839
Speaker 1: You weren't looking at old growth logging, right, you were

866
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 1: looking stuff that had been logged several times.

867
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, second growth, third growth, I mean in those

868
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 3: four ESTs. But that's making paper, making paper, And you know,

869
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 3: I'm I'm I'm old school. I'm sitting here, I've got

870
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 3: like stacks of paper around me from stuff I printed off,

871
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 3: you know, notes and things for the conversation today. But

872
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 3: this is rare. Man, Like, when's the last time you

873
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,479
Speaker 3: bought a newspaper? Right, I mean now, like the thing

874
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 3: in terms of.

875
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 1: Because they and also they taught you to think it

876
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 1: was bad.

877
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 3: Well that's true, you know, like going I think about

878
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:36,720
Speaker 3: this every time I'm in the bathroom.

879
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 1: And you got both sides save tree.

880
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 3: You got paper towel, and you got the you got

881
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 3: the electric hand dryer. Right, I've gotten in the habit

882
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:44,799
Speaker 3: of going for the paper towel every time, man, like

883
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 3: use up some.

884
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 1: Of that paper towel.

885
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, but the uh, you know, now, like one area

886
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 3: where there's still I would say, like robust and growing demand,

887
00:53:56,200 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 3: like cardboard boxes for Amazon. Like there's a portion of

888
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 3: the industry where pack we're making a lot, we're shipping

889
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 3: a lot of stuff around. But when it comes to

890
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 3: when it comes to like newsprint, I mean, newsprint's basically dead. Right,

891
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 3: Like if you've got a subscription, like pick your favorite newspaper,

892
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 3: you're probably looking at it on your phone, as opposed

893
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 3: to waiting for the kid on his bicycle to throw

894
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 3: the paper against your door on a Sunday morning. Right,

895
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 3: So it's been a tremendous disruption to the demand for pulp,

896
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,399
Speaker 3: and a lot of those pulp mills have closed down

897
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 3: just in the span of the last I mean, I

898
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 3: told you about the one in Mozenee just in the

899
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 3: last week. But if you look at the last decade,

900
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 3: we've lost a tremendous amount of pulp capacity. But on

901
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 3: the wildlife side, you think of it in terms of

902
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 3: demand for those habitat outcomes to be implemented, right, So

903
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 3: there's this really important connection. And just to hammer this

904
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:51,840
Speaker 3: one more time, like, without robust forest products industry, the

905
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 3: ability to deliver habitat outcomes at scale is tremendously compromised.

906
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 2: So there's just not a situation where like wildlife management

907
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 2: agencies or the Forest Service or whatever are just going

908
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 2: to like go in and chop trees down just for

909
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 2: the sake of chopping them down.

910
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 3: So now we start getting into this whole other realm

911
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 3: that I think is also very timely and very important,

912
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 3: and we could have a whole other conversation on this one.

913
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 3: But just in terms of thinking about conservation funding and

914
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,720
Speaker 3: the constraints that a lot of state agencies are starting

915
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 3: to feel, Steve, you and I've been sharing materials and

916
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:33,240
Speaker 3: texting back and forth a bit about the financial woes

917
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:35,359
Speaker 3: of some of the some of the states that are

918
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,399
Speaker 3: near and dear to our hearts, some thinking specifically about

919
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 3: Michigan and Wisconsin. Is a couple of examples right now

920
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:43,320
Speaker 3: where just trying to make ends meet under a funding

921
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 3: model that was built on the backs of hunting and

922
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 3: fishing license sales. Where that model is, from my perspective,

923
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 3: starting to unravel. There are cracks in the foundations starting

924
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 3: to show.

925
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 4: And Carl believes that the declining numbers of hunters is

926
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 4: of is like an existential threat to conservation.

927
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I agree. I'll give you a kind of

928
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:16,399
Speaker 2: a different scenario. In Pennsylvania, there's shiploads of state game

929
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 2: lands that the Game Commission you know, owns and manages,

930
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 2: and they have like historically had tons of racking leases

931
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 2: on those lands, and that like they're flushed, like they

932
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 2: have money that they can put into potentially projects like this.

933
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 2: I understand that's like probably the rare case as far

934
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 2: as these agencies go, But yeah, you know, it's something

935
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 2: to think about.

936
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:45,479
Speaker 3: It is it is, and I you know, I would

937
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:49,840
Speaker 3: I would rephrase your characterization of my perspective on this

938
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:51,320
Speaker 3: a little bit, Steve, I think.

939
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 1: Well, I did a great job. I'll prop I'll push

940
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 1: back a little.

941
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 3: Well, I said, like half a sentence, you said I

942
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 3: that I, Carl, believe declining hunter participation poses an existential

943
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:08,840
Speaker 3: threat to conservation.

944
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:09,840
Speaker 1: You need to clarify that.

945
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, go ahead. What I think is the declining

946
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 3: participation in hunting is representative of a broader trend that

947
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 3: is a real threat to conservation.

948
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 1: What's the broader trend?

949
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 3: So from my standpoint, I look at hunting in particular,

950
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 3: but really like a whole suite of outdoor activities that

951
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:46,440
Speaker 3: are pathways to people having a connection to the land

952
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 3: as being sort of the backbone of conservation. Like if

953
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 3: you don't have people who feel a sense of connection

954
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 3: to the natural world.

955
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 2: Just less people around who give it.

956
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 3: Right, that's a blunt way of putting it, but it's like,

957
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 3: if you don't have people who feel that sense of responsibility,

958
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 3: that is an existential threat. I think the hunter participation

959
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 3: piece and I and I do believe and I'm obviously

960
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 3: biased here, but I think these activities of hunting and

961
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 3: fishing and trapping and procuring food from the land in

962
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 3: any form. It's one of the most just obvious, deep

963
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 3: significant kinds of relationship that you can have to a place.

964
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 3: It's it's it's so visceral, right, It's a very personal,

965
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 3: visceral connection to the land. Which is not to say

966
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 3: that it's the only way to develop an appreciation for place.

967
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 3: I don't believe that at all. I think there are

968
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 3: a lot of different pathways to caring for the land.

969
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:59,360
Speaker 3: But the fact that we see these declines in participation

970
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 3: in activity like hunting, which are I believe among the

971
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 3: most strong and meaningful relationships to the land that a

972
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 3: person can have, that is representative of this broader trend

973
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:15,800
Speaker 3: of disconnection and apathy around conservation, and that I believe

974
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 3: is an existential threat.

975
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 1: I want to comment on that, but I want listeners

976
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: to understand very well that this is Steve talking and

977
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 1: not Carl talking about Okay, I don't want Carl to

978
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 1: get rolled up and just.

979
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 2: Say I don't have you read it.

980
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 1: There was a I think it was the New York Times.

981
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 1: There was an op ed, but the guys arguing he's like,

982
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 1: he's arguing that part of the he argues it as

983
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 1: the Republican Party has moved away from conservation, particularly under

984
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 1: the Trump administration. And he's like, because you don't have

985
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 1: those old style hunting and fishing like in that circle,

986
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:03,240
Speaker 1: aren't like the old style hunting and fishing.

987
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:06,480
Speaker 2: Republicans don't care about hunting.

988
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 1: These are Florida golfers. Do you know what I'm saying?

989
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 1: And he was kind of saying that like that, like this,

990
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:14,360
Speaker 1: like it's kind of like this is a moment of

991
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:19,919
Speaker 1: kind of like the indoor Republican you follow me following, Yeah,

992
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 1: and had a bunch of examples, but it's like they

993
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:28,040
Speaker 1: just they don't they don't know, and they don't care. Yeah,

994
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 1: they're not. Their vacation isn't fly fishing, Yeah, Jackson Hole.

995
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 1: Like their vacation is West Palm Beach or whatever. The

996
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:39,960
Speaker 1: one I can't remember what's the nice one? Is it Western?

997
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 2: I don't know, never been.

998
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,600
Speaker 1: There's one that's like super swank. Either Palm Beach or

999
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 1: West Palm Beach is super swank. And one's not like

1000
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein lived in one but kind of did his

1001
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 1: pursuits in the other one. I can't remember how it

1002
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:56,160
Speaker 1: all worked.

1003
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 2: But like what you're talking about, like the lack of connection,

1004
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 2: and it ties into this too, whether it's Republican or Democrat.

1005
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 2: Like there's like when I grew up, people knew what

1006
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 2: a rough grouse and a woodcock word.

1007
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:11,360
Speaker 1: It was a pet I mean, But.

1008
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:14,960
Speaker 2: Like you could ask someone anywhere on the East Coast

1009
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 2: or the Midwest and they might have no They'd be like,

1010
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 2: I don't know what that thing is. What they look like,

1011
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 2: you know.

1012
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 3: Exactly, And I think, you know, this idea of finding

1013
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:35,640
Speaker 3: opportunities for folks from whatever political persuasion, but also whatever

1014
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 3: sort of circumstance in which they enter their human experience.

1015
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:45,480
Speaker 3: So whether you're born in a rural community, whether you're

1016
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 3: born in an urban community, whether you're born in a

1017
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:55,720
Speaker 3: conservative family or a liberal family, this idea of a

1018
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:58,560
Speaker 3: sense of connection to place and a sense of responsibility

1019
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,000
Speaker 3: to place and also to community. You know, we talk

1020
01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 3: a lot about in this country. We talk a lot

1021
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 3: about rights. Right rights are a big deal, and they are.

1022
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:16,480
Speaker 3: But the flip side of all of these rights that

1023
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 3: we have are certain unalienable rights. As Americans, we don't

1024
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 3: spend enough time thinking about responsibilities and what it means

1025
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:29,560
Speaker 3: to go through life in a way where we are

1026
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 3: enjoying the rights that we have been given, but also

1027
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 3: asking ourselves what are we doing to redeem the responsibilities

1028
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:41,200
Speaker 3: that we have as members of our community? Yeah, but

1029
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 3: those are those are I think big important questions that

1030
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 3: in the conservation space. It's like, if your community extends

1031
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:52,160
Speaker 3: to the places and the species that you interact with,

1032
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 3: whether it's as a hunter or otherwise, it frames your

1033
01:02:56,320 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 3: worldview such that decisions around policy you start thinking, You

1034
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:04,920
Speaker 3: start thinking in terms of what kind of world do

1035
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:06,440
Speaker 3: you want to create? What kind of world do you

1036
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 3: want to leave behind? And that that framing, to me,

1037
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:17,800
Speaker 3: is one of the keys to success in terms of

1038
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 3: having a really vibrant, healthy culture as a nation, which

1039
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 3: I would suggest we've got some room to improve right

1040
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 3: now on that front. So just thinking in terms of

1041
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 3: how are we positioning ourselves to take care of the

1042
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:34,080
Speaker 3: things that take care of us? Okay, how are we

1043
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:36,880
Speaker 3: showing up in our community. There's a there's an education

1044
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 3: component to it, for sure.

1045
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:42,760
Speaker 1: You and I don't want to hover too long on

1046
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:47,600
Speaker 1: this thing about declining hunter participation in the Midwest or wherever,

1047
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:52,320
Speaker 1: but a thought on it nationally. But nat you okay,

1048
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:57,520
Speaker 1: you'll say, you're like, well, it's it's it's a part.

1049
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 1: It's a part of people disentangling themselves, stepping away from

1050
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 1: caring about wild landscapes. There are plenty of people that

1051
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 1: aren't going to come out of those backgrounds that would say, oh,

1052
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 1: I love seeing wildlife, I love walking in the woods.

1053
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:23,800
Speaker 1: But what they don't know, because they weren't culturally educated

1054
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 1: around like a hunting, angling outdoor background, what they don't

1055
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 1: know is they don't know how to look critically at

1056
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:34,600
Speaker 1: what they're seeing. Meaning if they see someone cutting a tree, boom,

1057
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 1: that's bad, right percent. Okay, if they walk through a

1058
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 1: big closed canopy forest, it's easy to walk through and

1059
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 1: it's really pretty because there's a bunch of big trees.

1060
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:52,880
Speaker 1: They love all that stuff, but they don't know. They're

1061
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 1: not looking at it. And I'm not saying there's only

1062
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 1: one way to get there. They're not looking at it

1063
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 1: with a hunter's eye or an educated eye. About what

1064
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:09,880
Speaker 1: are you not seeing? Yeah, yes, that is true. Right,

1065
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 1: you're seeing handful woodpeckers up in the top, some squirrels,

1066
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 1: not many, right, But they're like, this is perfect, it's

1067
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:26,440
Speaker 1: a big woods. Yeah, like it takes I don't know

1068
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:31,000
Speaker 1: a level of exposure, and some kind of like professional

1069
01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 1: understanding a little bit to start to move not just

1070
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:41,640
Speaker 1: from caring about places, but to like understanding them. Yeah, well,

1071
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 1: because a lot of people care, they just don't care

1072
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:47,000
Speaker 1: in the right way. Right. It's like the kind of

1073
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:48,960
Speaker 1: people who think that the way to support wildlife is

1074
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:51,280
Speaker 1: to be an animal rights activist. Right in their mind,

1075
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, well, of course it is right. They

1076
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:55,520
Speaker 1: don't understand the damage they do.

1077
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 3: Yes, I agree with that point. I also think there

1078
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 3: are there are a lot of non hunters who care

1079
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 3: about these concepts and are very supportive of hunting. In fact,

1080
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:13,919
Speaker 3: there are more non hunters who are supportive of hunting

1081
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 3: than there are hunters. So you know, if to be

1082
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 3: careful of painting with too broad a brush, I agree.

1083
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 1: But I mean, we're in some ways I'm not countering you.

1084
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:24,640
Speaker 1: I'm saying somebodys we're saying, we're talking about the same

1085
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 1: kind of thing. And I want to say there's an instinctive.

1086
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 1: What I'm saying is, I don't think that we're going

1087
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:34,560
Speaker 1: to run out of if let's say hunting does decline

1088
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:37,680
Speaker 1: or declines long term or something. We're not going to

1089
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:40,080
Speaker 1: run out of people who would tell you they love wildlife.

1090
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:43,640
Speaker 1: I picture we run out of people who knowing what

1091
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 1: that we run, we risk running out of people who

1092
01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 1: understand what that means.

1093
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, there'd still be a lot of people around who

1094
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:54,760
Speaker 2: care about the Yellowstone version of wild Yeah.

1095
01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 1: They would tell you, like, I love wildlife. It's like,

1096
01:06:56,880 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 1: but you don't understand it.

1097
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:03,360
Speaker 3: The language that comes to my mind is I'm thinking

1098
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 3: about rather than focusing on a particular activity, whether it's

1099
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:13,480
Speaker 3: whether it's hunting or wildlife, viewing this idea of thinking

1100
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 3: in terms of encouraging experiences for people that foster a

1101
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:24,480
Speaker 3: sense of connection and responsibility to a place. Because if

1102
01:07:24,520 --> 01:07:27,680
Speaker 3: you have that sense of responsibility and you want to

1103
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 3: execute on that, you need to know what the place

1104
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:33,640
Speaker 3: needs from you. And I think hunting is a phenomenal

1105
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:38,600
Speaker 3: gateway to just like experiencing in a visceral way, a

1106
01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 3: sense of being part of a system. Right, It's like

1107
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:45,880
Speaker 3: you are not observing, you are a participant, actively engaged

1108
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:48,480
Speaker 3: in a system, which is something we have been doing

1109
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:52,280
Speaker 3: since the beginning of our species existence. But I think

1110
01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 3: in terms of messaging, as you were talking, I'm just

1111
01:07:56,200 --> 01:07:58,800
Speaker 3: looking back at this twenty twenty five State of the

1112
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:03,959
Speaker 3: Birds report, and it talks in here about there being

1113
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:08,440
Speaker 3: one hundred million Americans engaged in birding and the economic

1114
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:11,840
Speaker 3: impact of that, et cetera. So well, give me a

1115
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:15,360
Speaker 3: moment here, man. That just makes me I'm not surprised.

1116
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:17,439
Speaker 3: I'm not surprised to hear that. But listen, here's the thing.

1117
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:19,720
Speaker 3: Here's the thing. So here here, let me give you

1118
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:20,200
Speaker 3: like a sense.

1119
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:22,320
Speaker 1: You don't want to know why I'm rolling my eyes? Okay,

1120
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:24,040
Speaker 1: go ahead, so listen listen here.

1121
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:27,240
Speaker 3: I do want I do want to hear your thoughts

1122
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:28,599
Speaker 3: on this, but I want to give it give some

1123
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 3: shout outs. So organizations including American Bird Conservancy, Cornell Lab

1124
01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:35,960
Speaker 3: of Ornithology, Ducks Unlimited, National Audibond.

1125
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:38,400
Speaker 1: Society, can you tell me how many birds are? One

1126
01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:39,040
Speaker 1: hundred million?

1127
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:44,320
Speaker 2: But and that includes eighty million of those in the mean?

1128
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:46,720
Speaker 1: It means people. It means when someone asks you, you

1129
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:47,799
Speaker 1: say you like birds.

1130
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:52,080
Speaker 3: Okay, that's I think that's an important data point, man.

1131
01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:54,479
Speaker 3: I believe that's an important data point. And guess what

1132
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 3: that includes.

1133
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 1: Virtually there's so there's over two hundred million people in

1134
01:08:58,439 --> 01:08:59,360
Speaker 1: this country who.

1135
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:02,640
Speaker 2: Don't I get what you're saying about these people that

1136
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:03,880
Speaker 2: are interested.

1137
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 3: People who have enough interest to be like, yeah, birds

1138
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:08,280
Speaker 3: are cool you.

1139
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 1: I would also would roll what an extraordinarily low barrier

1140
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:16,679
Speaker 1: to entry? Do you like birds? Yes? Okay, I'm gonna

1141
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:17,800
Speaker 1: put you down on my list of.

1142
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:20,479
Speaker 2: Birders, And I would say, like you were talking about

1143
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:24,880
Speaker 2: hunters versus not hunters earlier, like a hunter a good

1144
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:27,400
Speaker 2: chance he's gonna walk around on chunk woods and be like, man,

1145
01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:31,280
Speaker 2: there's no rough browse here, there's no wood gut here.

1146
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:35,599
Speaker 2: A lot of those hundred million birders they wouldn't.

1147
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:38,400
Speaker 1: I would be like, okay, but to be on my list,

1148
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:40,760
Speaker 1: do you have a bird book? And like you gotta

1149
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:44,120
Speaker 1: like there has to be some cardinal and an oriole

1150
01:09:44,400 --> 01:09:47,800
Speaker 1: test them. So the Scheckter bookshelves. There's got to be

1151
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:50,840
Speaker 1: something other than being like I like birds. Listen.

1152
01:09:51,360 --> 01:09:53,280
Speaker 3: The reason I'm bringing this up is not to get

1153
01:09:53,320 --> 01:09:54,679
Speaker 3: you off fired up about the data.

1154
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:58,040
Speaker 1: Why live with four birders? Sure?

1155
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:00,719
Speaker 3: And by the way, the report also it talks about

1156
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 3: like including virtually every hunter, Like what hunter is going

1157
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 3: to say? You know, No, when I'm out elk hunting,

1158
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 3: I always avert my eyes when I see Lewis's wood.

1159
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:12,879
Speaker 1: Damn birds, right, these damn.

1160
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:15,559
Speaker 3: Birds keep interrupting my el cutt, right, but that's why

1161
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:18,240
Speaker 3: I rolled mys so I'm not surprised you did. But

1162
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:21,000
Speaker 3: the reason I'm bringing this up is because I think

1163
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:29,160
Speaker 3: there are going to be times where these concepts that

1164
01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:34,320
Speaker 3: I think we hold deer around people's connection to place,

1165
01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:39,680
Speaker 3: having the voices of other organizations in this space with

1166
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:42,120
Speaker 3: us who are coming at it from a different lens.

1167
01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:45,240
Speaker 3: So like American Bird Conservancy is a great example that

1168
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:49,960
Speaker 3: is that is a nonprofit where there is so much

1169
01:10:50,040 --> 01:10:51,760
Speaker 3: alignment in terms of what we want to get done

1170
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:55,280
Speaker 3: on the ground, and they're talking to a slightly different audience,

1171
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:59,519
Speaker 3: and they are one hundred percent supportive of the kinds

1172
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:05,519
Speaker 3: of hunting that we're talking about, sustainable, responsible relationship based.

1173
01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:09,360
Speaker 3: There's no mismatch in terms of what we want to

1174
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:12,200
Speaker 3: see happen, and it's rooted in good science. And so

1175
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:14,840
Speaker 3: like this State of the Birds report, you can go

1176
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:19,439
Speaker 3: ecosystem by ecosystem through the country and talk about the

1177
01:11:19,479 --> 01:11:24,599
Speaker 3: status of sea ducks, western forest birds, shore birds, dabbling,

1178
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:28,639
Speaker 3: whatever you want to look at. The point I want

1179
01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:34,439
Speaker 3: to make here though, is when it comes to a

1180
01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:37,720
Speaker 3: very troubling picture in terms of bird conservation, including but

1181
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:39,920
Speaker 3: not limited to rough grouse in American woodcock in the

1182
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:43,479
Speaker 3: eastern forests of the United States. We know what we

1183
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:46,200
Speaker 3: need to do in these systems, like we have the

1184
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:49,080
Speaker 3: science to tell us what we need to do. It's

1185
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:51,200
Speaker 3: a matter of figuring out how do you scale up

1186
01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:56,040
Speaker 3: and have those outcomes delivered. And we're watching as these species,

1187
01:11:56,120 --> 01:12:01,120
Speaker 3: whether we're talking about whipperwills or woodcock, we're watching not

1188
01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:03,800
Speaker 3: even a gradual like in the span of our lifetime.

1189
01:12:04,040 --> 01:12:07,120
Speaker 3: We're watching these declines happen before our eyes because of

1190
01:12:07,120 --> 01:12:10,599
Speaker 3: our inability to take care of these habitats. So having

1191
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:15,400
Speaker 3: an organization or a chorus of voices that are coming

1192
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:19,240
Speaker 3: from different perspectives and talking to different audiences, and obviously

1193
01:12:19,280 --> 01:12:21,760
Speaker 3: the Rough gross Society in American Woodcock Society, we're a

1194
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:26,200
Speaker 3: very proud hunter conservationist oriented group. But I would offer

1195
01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:29,840
Speaker 3: that anybody who cares about forest health should be really

1196
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:31,680
Speaker 3: happy about the work that we're doing, whether they ever

1197
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:33,559
Speaker 3: want to pick up a shotgun or not. Like we're

1198
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:37,080
Speaker 3: in exactly the same business as the Audubon Society, American

1199
01:12:37,080 --> 01:12:40,519
Speaker 3: Bird Conservancy, the Nature Conservancy, Like we're partnering with these

1200
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:42,720
Speaker 3: organizations to try to get the same things done.

1201
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:46,560
Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying, though I don't mean a

1202
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 1: hack on all those guys. I understand what you're saying

1203
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:53,120
Speaker 1: in that if you can get again the one hundred million,

1204
01:12:53,120 --> 01:12:55,719
Speaker 1: come on. But whatever, how many are truly there.

1205
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:59,080
Speaker 3: Feeling less than one in three people who are into

1206
01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:00,240
Speaker 3: birds in there?

1207
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:04,719
Speaker 1: I don't think that's like an saying where no, Okay,

1208
01:13:06,120 --> 01:13:10,880
Speaker 1: let's say you got let's say you pulled Americans and

1209
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:14,479
Speaker 1: said do you like the thought of a beach? Okay,

1210
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 1: hmm and two hundred million ever be like yeah, y sure,

1211
01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:22,320
Speaker 1: I'd be like, hey, when was the last time you

1212
01:13:22,320 --> 01:13:26,679
Speaker 1: were at a beach? Right, it's a smaller number, okay,

1213
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:30,400
Speaker 1: And then be like, do you plan your schedule around

1214
01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:34,759
Speaker 1: visiting a beach every year? Now, there's a smaller number.

1215
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:41,800
Speaker 1: Somewhere within that hundred million is hiding a number of like.

1216
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:47,280
Speaker 3: Diehard birders, hardcore burners, or.

1217
01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:50,200
Speaker 1: Hardcore beach goers. We're like, no, next weekend, I'm flying

1218
01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:52,960
Speaker 1: down to Florida to go to the beach. I'm like that,

1219
01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:58,000
Speaker 1: I'm waxing myself to be as we speak, like that's

1220
01:13:58,000 --> 01:13:59,240
Speaker 1: a beach going to be fair to.

1221
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:03,320
Speaker 2: Carl though, like hunters suffer from myopia just as much

1222
01:14:03,320 --> 01:14:07,080
Speaker 2: as everyone else. Right, Like, I might be aware of

1223
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:11,639
Speaker 2: this this bad thing that's happening to rough grouse and

1224
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:15,000
Speaker 2: woodcock and not be aware of a bunch of other

1225
01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:19,400
Speaker 2: things that are happening with other species that the hardcore

1226
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:20,559
Speaker 2: birders might be aware.

1227
01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:22,720
Speaker 1: I know. But the reason and we spent way too

1228
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:24,479
Speaker 1: much time in this say, but I have to I

1229
01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:27,840
Speaker 1: have to have my point to hear the hunt. I

1230
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:30,200
Speaker 1: don't think, oh they If I thought to myself, oh,

1231
01:14:30,240 --> 01:14:34,600
Speaker 1: thank god, there's one hundred million die hard birder allies

1232
01:14:35,040 --> 01:14:38,719
Speaker 1: out there wanting to fix America's forests, that'd be great,

1233
01:14:38,720 --> 01:14:41,599
Speaker 1: But I don't think that. Yeah, I think it's probably

1234
01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:45,440
Speaker 1: like maybe ten million, maybe as many as there are hunters,

1235
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:48,479
Speaker 1: like like birders.

1236
01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:52,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, birders who are like America's forest ready, because when

1237
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:54,640
Speaker 3: you go out and just ask people like do you

1238
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:55,879
Speaker 3: like seeing a bird?

1239
01:14:56,120 --> 01:15:03,200
Speaker 1: You're not collecting Yeah, people who want to fix America's forests. Right.

1240
01:15:03,479 --> 01:15:06,720
Speaker 3: But so a counterpoint to that argument is, if you

1241
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:10,160
Speaker 3: were to ask the question about caring about fixing America's forests,

1242
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:12,680
Speaker 3: you might find a lot of other allies who care

1243
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:14,120
Speaker 3: about it for reasons other than birds.

1244
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:17,200
Speaker 1: Bring them on I just couldn't have you say that

1245
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:22,479
Speaker 1: number without comment. But I'm not surprised that that's here's

1246
01:15:22,479 --> 01:15:27,439
Speaker 1: the way to change, here's the way it changes. I

1247
01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:31,720
Speaker 1: picture there's two things happening with habitat, okay, okay, Like

1248
01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:40,720
Speaker 1: there's loss meaning irrevocable harm, yes, development, right, and then

1249
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:51,360
Speaker 1: neglect yeah, good word? Okay? Can I don't know, Like,

1250
01:15:51,400 --> 01:15:54,679
Speaker 1: how do you picture the relationship between those two numbers, Like, meaning,

1251
01:15:55,080 --> 01:16:00,360
Speaker 1: for every one hundred acres of subprime bird habitat in

1252
01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:06,479
Speaker 1: the eastern US, right, for every one hundred acres of

1253
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:10,439
Speaker 1: prime habitat that's been lost in the last fifty years,

1254
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:18,799
Speaker 1: what is the ratio of acres lost to irrevocable damage, yeah,

1255
01:16:19,240 --> 01:16:24,000
Speaker 1: pavement whatever. And what is the acres lost to mismanagement

1256
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:26,400
Speaker 1: or neglect? Yeah?

1257
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:28,400
Speaker 3: I'm not going to hazard a guess on that, but

1258
01:16:28,880 --> 01:16:32,120
Speaker 3: those are the two keys. And I think one thing

1259
01:16:32,160 --> 01:16:35,400
Speaker 3: that I could put a little bit finer point on here.

1260
01:16:35,439 --> 01:16:38,559
Speaker 3: I mean, we know all of us have the stories

1261
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:40,879
Speaker 3: of the places where we grew up playing the woodlot

1262
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:42,800
Speaker 3: that you describe with the oak trees getting cut and

1263
01:16:42,800 --> 01:16:44,479
Speaker 3: then all of a sudden boom houses popping up.

1264
01:16:44,479 --> 01:16:46,439
Speaker 1: We've all got those stories rights, we depressed. Every time

1265
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:47,479
Speaker 1: I visit my mom.

1266
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:51,479
Speaker 3: I listen, there's a place. There's a place where I

1267
01:16:51,520 --> 01:16:56,600
Speaker 3: had my sort of illicit campground along trout Stream in

1268
01:16:56,680 --> 01:17:00,000
Speaker 3: leland On County that the last time I went check

1269
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:02,400
Speaker 3: it out, there was a trampoline sitting where my fire.

1270
01:17:02,240 --> 01:17:02,880
Speaker 1: Pit used to be.

1271
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:08,479
Speaker 3: So we've all got those places, right. We know we're

1272
01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:17,600
Speaker 3: losing ground to development, of course, fragmentation, et cetera. The

1273
01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:20,519
Speaker 3: story of the I like the word neglect because I

1274
01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:22,280
Speaker 3: think a lot of folks, you know, if you're driving

1275
01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:25,519
Speaker 3: through the forests of the eastern United States and looking

1276
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:26,719
Speaker 3: out your window, you're like, yeah.

1277
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:28,080
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's a lot of forest here.

1278
01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:32,920
Speaker 3: What we have is a lot of the the forests

1279
01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:37,960
Speaker 3: that have regrown after that era of exploitation, and so

1280
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:42,040
Speaker 3: we have a tremendous amount of like middle aged forest

1281
01:17:42,560 --> 01:17:46,479
Speaker 3: that is very homogeneous, very much the same, like eighty

1282
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:50,760
Speaker 3: to one and twenty years old. I mean, yeah, so

1283
01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:55,320
Speaker 3: I'm using like some non precise, non scientific language, but

1284
01:17:55,320 --> 01:17:57,439
Speaker 3: if you think about the timeline of when these forests

1285
01:17:57,439 --> 01:18:01,360
Speaker 3: were slicked off, when the when the era of exploitation

1286
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:05,439
Speaker 3: and liquidation of our timber resources occurred, a lot of

1287
01:18:05,479 --> 01:18:08,280
Speaker 3: what we have now is the growth that has replaced.

1288
01:18:08,400 --> 01:18:10,879
Speaker 2: If you were standing in a middle aged forest, what would.

1289
01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:11,160
Speaker 1: You be seeing.

1290
01:18:11,320 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 3: Well, that's so, that's great, especially in these in these landscapes.

1291
01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:15,400
Speaker 3: I'll tell you a few things you're going to see.

1292
01:18:15,400 --> 01:18:20,240
Speaker 3: You're going to see. Take a canopy overhead that is

1293
01:18:20,520 --> 01:18:23,880
Speaker 3: allowing very little sunlight to hit the forest floor. You're

1294
01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:29,320
Speaker 3: going to see very little understory, plant diversity or community.

1295
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:31,640
Speaker 2: There's leaf litter on.

1296
01:18:31,800 --> 01:18:32,519
Speaker 1: A lot of leaf litter.

1297
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:34,599
Speaker 3: And I'll throw I'll throw a cool term out here

1298
01:18:34,800 --> 01:18:36,479
Speaker 3: and a shout out to one of my retired Forest

1299
01:18:36,479 --> 01:18:40,040
Speaker 3: Service colleagues, a guy named Greg Miwaki, who coined this

1300
01:18:40,160 --> 01:18:48,000
Speaker 3: term mesofication, which refers to the increasing sort of moisture

1301
01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:50,400
Speaker 3: tolerance of a forest over time. So a lot of

1302
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:52,519
Speaker 3: our forests in the East, when you think about that

1303
01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:56,679
Speaker 3: era of all this disruption occurring the passenger pigeons, the bison,

1304
01:18:56,840 --> 01:19:01,920
Speaker 3: the elk, you had four forest where things were drier

1305
01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:04,679
Speaker 3: as a result of more sunlight hitting the forest floor.

1306
01:19:05,080 --> 01:19:08,080
Speaker 3: So in places like Indiana is a perfect example where

1307
01:19:08,640 --> 01:19:14,400
Speaker 3: the species of woody vegetation that are less tolerant of shade,

1308
01:19:14,439 --> 01:19:17,040
Speaker 3: so like oaks, are a prime example, we historically had

1309
01:19:17,080 --> 01:19:20,920
Speaker 3: tons more oaks on the landscape, much more fire maintaining

1310
01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:25,000
Speaker 3: those oaks. If you just take a hands off approaching

1311
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:30,040
Speaker 3: those systems, remove all those drivers of disturbance, you'll start

1312
01:19:30,280 --> 01:19:33,479
Speaker 3: a successional process where in the understore you'll start getting

1313
01:19:33,880 --> 01:19:37,320
Speaker 3: shade tolerant species like red Maple's a good example that'll

1314
01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:39,920
Speaker 3: come up in the understory. And then if the oaks

1315
01:19:40,040 --> 01:19:44,760
Speaker 3: are dropping their acorns in a sea of red maple seedlings,

1316
01:19:45,080 --> 01:19:47,400
Speaker 3: those oak seedlings are going to be out competed because

1317
01:19:47,439 --> 01:19:49,879
Speaker 3: they don't do as well in the absence of direct sunlight.

1318
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:53,120
Speaker 3: So you have a canopy come up eventually to where

1319
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:56,559
Speaker 3: red maple will be the dominant species and the oaks

1320
01:19:56,600 --> 01:20:00,720
Speaker 3: will not come back. So that transition from shade intolerant

1321
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:05,519
Speaker 3: to shade tolerant species, which corresponds to increasing moisture content

1322
01:20:06,040 --> 01:20:10,719
Speaker 3: in the understory. That's musification referring to a more music

1323
01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:13,160
Speaker 3: site as opposed to a more it's xeric site. So

1324
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:15,360
Speaker 3: a music site is more moist, a xerox site is

1325
01:20:15,400 --> 01:20:19,439
Speaker 3: more dry. My good buddy Gregnawaki was the one who

1326
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:24,280
Speaker 3: kind of termed this this musification idea through his research

1327
01:20:24,280 --> 01:20:25,960
Speaker 3: looking at that change over time. So if you're in

1328
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:30,280
Speaker 3: this forest stand, you're going to have a very consistent

1329
01:20:30,439 --> 01:20:33,640
Speaker 3: aged overstory. Like all the trees came up in the

1330
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:37,320
Speaker 3: same cohort, made it to the canopy, they're now shading

1331
01:20:37,320 --> 01:20:40,839
Speaker 3: out the understory. You don't have the robust grass forbed

1332
01:20:40,880 --> 01:20:44,439
Speaker 3: shrub understory. You don't have a lot of mid mid

1333
01:20:44,479 --> 01:20:45,760
Speaker 3: canopy complexity.

1334
01:20:45,920 --> 01:20:48,240
Speaker 1: Squirrel, see you way too far away, squirrel, see you

1335
01:20:48,280 --> 01:20:49,040
Speaker 1: way too far away.

1336
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:51,320
Speaker 3: There's and you're not going to have. You're not going

1337
01:20:51,400 --> 01:20:56,040
Speaker 3: to have nesting habitat for a whole spec a whole

1338
01:20:56,080 --> 01:20:59,680
Speaker 3: cadre of species of birds that require that diversity. And

1339
01:20:59,720 --> 01:21:03,559
Speaker 3: also so like the understory plant community, the pollinators. You know,

1340
01:21:03,600 --> 01:21:07,160
Speaker 3: we could talk about rusty patch bumblebee comes to mind,

1341
01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:09,760
Speaker 3: a species listed under the Endangered Species Act, where we're

1342
01:21:09,760 --> 01:21:11,800
Speaker 3: not talking about birds anymore, we're talking about insects. But

1343
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:15,120
Speaker 3: it's the same story of disturbance being a limiting factor.

1344
01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:19,400
Speaker 3: So the forest is going to have a closed canopy,

1345
01:21:19,439 --> 01:21:21,240
Speaker 3: it's going to be real shady, it's going to look

1346
01:21:21,280 --> 01:21:23,720
Speaker 3: the same as far as you can see. And I

1347
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:25,640
Speaker 3: think if folks pay attention as you're driving through a

1348
01:21:25,640 --> 01:21:28,120
Speaker 3: lot of these eastern forests. You're going to notice some

1349
01:21:28,120 --> 01:21:30,400
Speaker 3: of those characteristics. And I'll throw one more thing out

1350
01:21:30,400 --> 01:21:33,160
Speaker 3: there for you. Now, that's very different from what things

1351
01:21:33,160 --> 01:21:35,840
Speaker 3: looked like three or four hundred years ago on these landscapes,

1352
01:21:36,200 --> 01:21:39,040
Speaker 3: and that is an overabundance of white tail deer, which

1353
01:21:39,040 --> 01:21:41,639
Speaker 3: are not a replacement for the elk and the bison.

1354
01:21:42,280 --> 01:21:45,719
Speaker 3: The browsing dynamics of white tail deer in these systems

1355
01:21:46,160 --> 01:21:50,200
Speaker 3: are a very different driver of disruption ecologically.

1356
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:51,840
Speaker 1: Come up, they're not.

1357
01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:56,760
Speaker 3: Letting any of those species join the you know, the

1358
01:21:56,800 --> 01:21:59,479
Speaker 3: older age classes. So this is where you get into

1359
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:01,160
Speaker 3: maybe an feature that you're going to see in a

1360
01:22:01,160 --> 01:22:03,479
Speaker 3: lot of places as a pronounced browse line from white

1361
01:22:03,479 --> 01:22:07,479
Speaker 3: tail deer, which is a whole other set of ecological issues.

1362
01:22:07,560 --> 01:22:10,840
Speaker 3: So this is where you know, we can't fall into

1363
01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:13,160
Speaker 3: the trap of thinking, oh, well, we've got deer, and

1364
01:22:13,600 --> 01:22:15,920
Speaker 3: so maybe deer playing the role that elker bison did.

1365
01:22:16,200 --> 01:22:19,679
Speaker 3: Deer in the absence of sufficient predation are another driver

1366
01:22:19,800 --> 01:22:23,400
Speaker 3: of a decline of ecological integrity in these systems. So

1367
01:22:23,439 --> 01:22:25,080
Speaker 3: that's I think a good picture of what you'd see.

1368
01:22:25,120 --> 01:22:27,880
Speaker 3: And then the other piece is if you are one

1369
01:22:27,880 --> 01:22:31,000
Speaker 3: of these maybe ten million diehard burds. And you're out

1370
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:34,400
Speaker 3: there with your Cornell Lab of Ornithology app and you're

1371
01:22:34,400 --> 01:22:37,000
Speaker 3: listening to the birds, you're going to hear very little

1372
01:22:37,439 --> 01:22:40,679
Speaker 3: diversity in those systems as well, for a variety of reasons,

1373
01:22:40,680 --> 01:22:43,439
Speaker 3: but the structural complexity lacking being one of the keys.

1374
01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:45,719
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask about the woodcock because you guys

1375
01:22:45,800 --> 01:22:49,880
Speaker 2: just recently kind of took woodcock under your officially under

1376
01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:55,400
Speaker 2: your umbrella. Yeah, are they Are they more at risk

1377
01:22:56,720 --> 01:22:59,360
Speaker 2: for these kinds of problems because they migrate? Or are

1378
01:22:59,400 --> 01:23:02,240
Speaker 2: they better able to deal with these problems because they

1379
01:23:02,280 --> 01:23:06,559
Speaker 2: migrate because rough grasse, like you said, like small home range,

1380
01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:10,000
Speaker 2: right right, woodcock might fly nine hundred one.

1381
01:23:09,920 --> 01:23:11,479
Speaker 1: Thousand, Yeah, twice a year.

1382
01:23:11,640 --> 01:23:13,320
Speaker 3: Brody, you're the man. I'm so glad we could talk

1383
01:23:13,360 --> 01:23:14,759
Speaker 3: about woodcock a little bit man.

1384
01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:20,640
Speaker 1: Timberdoodle, timberdoodle, mud bat man, bog partridge, bog sucker, the

1385
01:23:20,720 --> 01:23:23,400
Speaker 1: names go on. Uh yeah, the timberdoodle.

1386
01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:26,280
Speaker 2: Thank you, because if you asked my my buddy in

1387
01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:29,679
Speaker 2: Pennsylvania I was talking about, he would be like, holy crap,

1388
01:23:29,800 --> 01:23:31,559
Speaker 2: is the woodcock hunting good these days?

1389
01:23:31,600 --> 01:23:32,360
Speaker 1: Well? Was it really?

1390
01:23:32,400 --> 01:23:32,559
Speaker 4: Oh?

1391
01:23:32,640 --> 01:23:32,960
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1392
01:23:33,040 --> 01:23:34,639
Speaker 1: Yeah? So if you're the only birds, but we can

1393
01:23:34,680 --> 01:23:35,960
Speaker 1: trust him with his own beak.

1394
01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:40,960
Speaker 3: Listen, Woodcock Man, just do a whole separate episode just

1395
01:23:41,000 --> 01:23:41,639
Speaker 3: on Woodcock.

1396
01:23:42,760 --> 01:23:43,720
Speaker 1: Listen. Here's the thing.

1397
01:23:45,320 --> 01:23:48,240
Speaker 3: A really cool aspect of working for this organization is

1398
01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:52,120
Speaker 3: you have the opportunity to focus on this high sight

1399
01:23:52,200 --> 01:23:55,560
Speaker 3: fidelity king of king of Upland game birds, where you know,

1400
01:23:55,600 --> 01:23:59,000
Speaker 3: everything we've been talking around about forest diversity and managing

1401
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:02,000
Speaker 3: it at a tight local scale is the key. And

1402
01:24:02,000 --> 01:24:03,600
Speaker 3: then you get to shift gears and talk about a

1403
01:24:03,640 --> 01:24:07,559
Speaker 3: migratory Upland game bird that is just this like bizarre,

1404
01:24:07,760 --> 01:24:09,560
Speaker 3: amazing outlier.

1405
01:24:09,200 --> 01:24:11,679
Speaker 2: Birders love them because they do that cool little dance.

1406
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:17,000
Speaker 1: Go down to the gas line, like not a mile

1407
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:18,280
Speaker 1: away from the house and watch them.

1408
01:24:18,360 --> 01:24:21,240
Speaker 3: They are They are so damn cool. There might be

1409
01:24:22,720 --> 01:24:26,280
Speaker 3: one of my half jokingly sometimes say to folks on

1410
01:24:26,280 --> 01:24:28,880
Speaker 3: our team at RGS and AWS, I'm like, you know,

1411
01:24:28,920 --> 01:24:30,720
Speaker 3: people think I came for the rough gross, but I'm

1412
01:24:30,720 --> 01:24:34,840
Speaker 3: really here for the Woodcock Man. So I think the

1413
01:24:34,880 --> 01:24:38,720
Speaker 3: answer to your question, Brody is the fact that Woodcock

1414
01:24:39,880 --> 01:24:45,120
Speaker 3: operate ecologically at a continental scale. You need you really

1415
01:24:45,200 --> 01:24:48,439
Speaker 3: need those habitat elements to be in the right places

1416
01:24:48,479 --> 01:24:50,320
Speaker 3: at the right times. At a at a scale that

1417
01:24:50,479 --> 01:24:55,160
Speaker 3: makes it makes the system much more fragile to disruption, right,

1418
01:24:55,200 --> 01:24:58,200
Speaker 3: and we're seeing that in terms of woodcock declines. So

1419
01:24:58,400 --> 01:25:00,799
Speaker 3: I'll give you like a quick stat here that's helpful.

1420
01:25:02,320 --> 01:25:05,280
Speaker 3: State agencies. State fish and Wildlife agencies are responsible for

1421
01:25:05,320 --> 01:25:08,040
Speaker 3: developing state wildlife Action plans in order to qualify for

1422
01:25:08,080 --> 01:25:12,200
Speaker 3: federal funding through Pittman Robertson at So, every state Fish

1423
01:25:12,200 --> 01:25:15,280
Speaker 3: and Wildlife agency has a state Wildlife Action Plan. And

1424
01:25:15,320 --> 01:25:17,040
Speaker 3: one of the things that happens in these state Wildlife

1425
01:25:17,080 --> 01:25:19,960
Speaker 3: Action plans is they go through all the species and

1426
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:22,760
Speaker 3: they try to identify what ones warrant listing as a

1427
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:26,519
Speaker 3: species of greatest conservation need. That's an indicator that a

1428
01:25:26,520 --> 01:25:33,880
Speaker 3: particular critter is in some level of decline or threat.

1429
01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:37,640
Speaker 3: And for rough grouse, there are currently eighteen states that

1430
01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:40,120
Speaker 3: have rough grouse listed as.

1431
01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:42,960
Speaker 1: A species of greatest Ohio.

1432
01:25:43,520 --> 01:25:47,400
Speaker 3: Ohio is right now considering what to do with their

1433
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:49,559
Speaker 3: hunting season, and there's a proposal on the table. Just

1434
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:50,880
Speaker 3: in the next couple of weeks they're going to be

1435
01:25:51,280 --> 01:25:58,000
Speaker 3: talking about a proposal to reduce the rough grouse hunting

1436
01:25:58,040 --> 01:26:01,160
Speaker 3: season to include just a handful of properties where we

1437
01:26:01,200 --> 01:26:03,439
Speaker 3: know we still have grouse on the landscape versus just

1438
01:26:03,520 --> 01:26:07,640
Speaker 3: closing it out right. But back to this idea of

1439
01:26:07,680 --> 01:26:09,960
Speaker 3: the state Wildlife Action Plan. So eighteen of them have

1440
01:26:10,160 --> 01:26:13,040
Speaker 3: rough grouse listed, twenty nine of them have American woodcocks.

1441
01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:17,360
Speaker 3: Really the greatest conservation need, and that includes Michigan, Wisconsin,

1442
01:26:17,640 --> 01:26:20,000
Speaker 3: Minnesota like states where we're sort of in the bread

1443
01:26:20,040 --> 01:26:25,760
Speaker 3: basket of upland bird hunting. And this year, one of

1444
01:26:25,800 --> 01:26:28,880
Speaker 3: the highlights of the time I've been with this organization

1445
01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:31,040
Speaker 3: was I had a chance back in December to go

1446
01:26:31,040 --> 01:26:34,000
Speaker 3: down to Louisiana, flew down to Baton Rouge and had

1447
01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:36,360
Speaker 3: a chance to spend some time with folks from the

1448
01:26:36,400 --> 01:26:39,040
Speaker 3: state agency down there, and we went out and banded.

1449
01:26:39,080 --> 01:26:41,720
Speaker 3: We banded fifty three woodcock one night on one of

1450
01:26:41,720 --> 01:26:46,519
Speaker 3: their state game areas, which was an absolute oh man.

1451
01:26:47,640 --> 01:26:51,840
Speaker 3: It is such a cool example of technology and action.

1452
01:26:52,040 --> 01:26:56,240
Speaker 3: So the biologists down there, and I'll give a shout

1453
01:26:56,240 --> 01:26:59,160
Speaker 3: out to Richard Temple at the Louisiana Department of Wildlife

1454
01:26:59,160 --> 01:27:05,880
Speaker 3: and Fisheries, he and the team from the state. First,

1455
01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:08,960
Speaker 3: they have a drone with infrared and they fly it

1456
01:27:09,000 --> 01:27:12,519
Speaker 3: over these open fields at night and the infrared camera

1457
01:27:13,080 --> 01:27:17,120
Speaker 3: can I mean, these woodcock glow like they blow up

1458
01:27:17,200 --> 01:27:20,400
Speaker 3: out of the background. And then the drone also has

1459
01:27:20,439 --> 01:27:24,880
Speaker 3: a spotlight on it, so they can hover like I

1460
01:27:24,880 --> 01:27:27,680
Speaker 3: don't know, one hundred feet above the field see where

1461
01:27:27,680 --> 01:27:30,800
Speaker 3: these woodcock are. And then they can they have a

1462
01:27:30,880 --> 01:27:34,559
Speaker 3: camera with such incredible resolution that you can, like you

1463
01:27:34,560 --> 01:27:39,680
Speaker 3: can see the woodcock blink from the drone, and if

1464
01:27:39,720 --> 01:27:44,040
Speaker 3: a woodcock defecates, you can see like the heat of

1465
01:27:44,439 --> 01:27:48,040
Speaker 3: the splash at a woodcock's back. So it's just incredible

1466
01:27:48,280 --> 01:27:51,200
Speaker 3: view of the field. And then we go out with

1467
01:27:51,840 --> 01:27:54,080
Speaker 3: like a four wheeler and spotlights on the ground, and

1468
01:27:54,120 --> 01:27:55,960
Speaker 3: basically it's like a deer in the headlights. You shine

1469
01:27:55,960 --> 01:27:57,880
Speaker 3: a spotlight on the woodcock and you can take a

1470
01:27:57,920 --> 01:28:00,000
Speaker 3: fishing net or even you can grab them by your

1471
01:28:00,040 --> 01:28:03,920
Speaker 3: bare hand with the spotlight shining on the bird. And

1472
01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:08,200
Speaker 3: then we're aging them and sexing them and releasing them.

1473
01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:13,200
Speaker 3: And I have to say, like, after having a lot

1474
01:28:13,200 --> 01:28:16,320
Speaker 3: of woodcock, like dead woodcock in my hands, or having

1475
01:28:16,360 --> 01:28:19,479
Speaker 3: a woodcock that's crippled and you're dispatching it, to have

1476
01:28:19,560 --> 01:28:22,599
Speaker 3: these little woodcock that we're banding and releasing watching them

1477
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:24,880
Speaker 3: fly away out of my hands was it was pretty

1478
01:28:24,920 --> 01:28:27,679
Speaker 3: damn cool man. So we did all this banding work

1479
01:28:28,439 --> 01:28:30,280
Speaker 3: and then also did some hunting. I was down there

1480
01:28:30,280 --> 01:28:32,719
Speaker 3: for the opener of the woodcock season, got to hunt

1481
01:28:32,840 --> 01:28:36,880
Speaker 3: with a guy named Paul Paul Frischertz and Keene Jones,

1482
01:28:36,920 --> 01:28:38,479
Speaker 3: who are a couple of guys down there looking to

1483
01:28:39,040 --> 01:28:42,800
Speaker 3: kind of resurrect a American Woodcock Society chapter and their

1484
01:28:42,800 --> 01:28:46,720
Speaker 3: bevy of pointing dogs. But the coolest part about all

1485
01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:54,719
Speaker 3: of that experience was when the biologist, this guy, Richard Temple,

1486
01:28:55,800 --> 01:28:58,439
Speaker 3: showed me the map of the band return data. Saw

1487
01:28:58,439 --> 01:29:00,519
Speaker 3: all these woodcock that their their band right there on

1488
01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:03,720
Speaker 3: Baton Rouge. He puts up this map of where the

1489
01:29:03,760 --> 01:29:05,680
Speaker 3: bands have been returned from, Like hunters have shot a

1490
01:29:05,720 --> 01:29:07,599
Speaker 3: woodcock that's banned and they call it in, just like

1491
01:29:07,760 --> 01:29:10,120
Speaker 3: what we're used to with ducks and geese. And there

1492
01:29:10,120 --> 01:29:12,160
Speaker 3: were a couple of points that were within like fifteen

1493
01:29:12,200 --> 01:29:15,360
Speaker 3: miles of my family camp up in the west, like

1494
01:29:15,640 --> 01:29:18,919
Speaker 3: right where I grouse in Woodcock con Man. So these birds,

1495
01:29:19,080 --> 01:29:21,040
Speaker 3: you know, you're down here, like worried about your dog

1496
01:29:21,160 --> 01:29:23,880
Speaker 3: running into a cotton mouth. There's alligators hanging out in

1497
01:29:23,920 --> 01:29:27,519
Speaker 3: these like bayous hanging out with all these great Cajun

1498
01:29:27,760 --> 01:29:32,280
Speaker 3: upland bird hunting guys. But it's exactly exactly the same

1499
01:29:32,400 --> 01:29:36,639
Speaker 3: individual birds that were chasing around like in October up

1500
01:29:36,680 --> 01:29:40,840
Speaker 3: in Wisconsin, Michigan, Minnesota. Here they are down in you know,

1501
01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:44,320
Speaker 3: the Gulf coast in December. So I had that experience.

1502
01:29:44,360 --> 01:29:46,240
Speaker 3: And then I'm flying back, you know, I'm on my

1503
01:29:46,280 --> 01:29:50,559
Speaker 3: trip from Baton Rouge back up to Milwaukee, and I'm

1504
01:29:50,600 --> 01:29:54,760
Speaker 3: looking out the window, just watching the miles right pass

1505
01:29:54,840 --> 01:29:57,599
Speaker 3: under the plane, and I'm thinking about this, these little

1506
01:29:57,600 --> 01:30:02,320
Speaker 3: birds like just making that. And then they're also nesting,

1507
01:30:02,360 --> 01:30:05,880
Speaker 3: like they're they're laying eggs and hatching chicks during their

1508
01:30:05,920 --> 01:30:09,639
Speaker 3: return migrations north too. So you've got the you've got

1509
01:30:09,680 --> 01:30:12,439
Speaker 3: like the summer ground in the north, you've got the

1510
01:30:12,439 --> 01:30:15,240
Speaker 3: wintering ground, and then there's all this stopover habitat where

1511
01:30:15,760 --> 01:30:18,200
Speaker 3: we know these birds are nesting. Part of the reason

1512
01:30:18,240 --> 01:30:22,439
Speaker 3: we know that is this amazing collaborative called the Eastern

1513
01:30:22,439 --> 01:30:23,799
Speaker 3: Woodcock Migration Research.

1514
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:25,840
Speaker 1: They're not nesting in their northern chunk.

1515
01:30:26,000 --> 01:30:28,160
Speaker 3: They do most of their nesting in their northern chunk.

1516
01:30:28,200 --> 01:30:32,360
Speaker 3: But what the recent research has demonstrated is that there

1517
01:30:32,400 --> 01:30:39,880
Speaker 3: are hens rearing clutches rearing chicks during this you know,

1518
01:30:40,080 --> 01:30:41,880
Speaker 3: it's not like a cut and dried, like I'm going

1519
01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:44,599
Speaker 3: back to Minnesota to lay my eggs right like it's

1520
01:30:44,640 --> 01:30:52,240
Speaker 3: happening over that latitudinal gradient north yep. And so I've been,

1521
01:30:53,600 --> 01:30:57,240
Speaker 3: you know, academically like, oh, yeah, they're migratory. And your

1522
01:30:57,240 --> 01:30:59,679
Speaker 3: buddy him talking about man, the woodcock cutting sure has.

1523
01:30:59,560 --> 01:31:00,400
Speaker 1: Been great lately.

1524
01:31:00,640 --> 01:31:04,280
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, it might be like Monday, there's woodcock everywhere,

1525
01:31:04,360 --> 01:31:08,200
Speaker 3: and then Tuesday like right gone, right, And anybody who's

1526
01:31:08,280 --> 01:31:11,960
Speaker 3: hunted woodcock when when you hit these migration events, it

1527
01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:17,280
Speaker 3: can be like you can't you can't walk without bumping birds,

1528
01:31:17,320 --> 01:31:20,479
Speaker 3: like I've had. I've had situations where you know, I'm

1529
01:31:20,560 --> 01:31:23,600
Speaker 3: hunting pointing dogs. I'll have a dog on point, a

1530
01:31:23,600 --> 01:31:26,839
Speaker 3: bird goes up, shoot the bird, dog goes to retrieve

1531
01:31:26,880 --> 01:31:28,519
Speaker 3: the bird, but like points another bird on its way

1532
01:31:28,520 --> 01:31:30,040
Speaker 3: to get the dead bird, or it's bringing a bird

1533
01:31:30,080 --> 01:31:32,360
Speaker 3: back and pointing another bird on there. Like when you

1534
01:31:32,400 --> 01:31:34,880
Speaker 3: get into these flights, it can be amazing. But the

1535
01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:38,959
Speaker 3: big picture in terms of woodcock numbers is a gradual

1536
01:31:39,040 --> 01:31:43,120
Speaker 3: decline continentally. So you need the good habitat in the north.

1537
01:31:43,120 --> 01:31:44,519
Speaker 3: You need the good habitat in the south. You need

1538
01:31:44,520 --> 01:31:49,160
Speaker 3: the habitat along the way. And one of the really

1539
01:31:49,200 --> 01:31:52,200
Speaker 3: exciting things is this this work being let out of

1540
01:31:52,200 --> 01:31:56,680
Speaker 3: the University of Maine, the Eastern Woodcock Migration Research Cooperative.

1541
01:31:57,400 --> 01:32:03,160
Speaker 3: The two leads Eric Blomberg and doctor Amber Roth are

1542
01:32:04,439 --> 01:32:09,720
Speaker 3: leading a collaborative to try to understand the use of

1543
01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:13,680
Speaker 3: habitat during this migratory period. And they've put out at

1544
01:32:13,680 --> 01:32:16,880
Speaker 3: this point over seven hundred backpack transmitters on Woodcock. They

1545
01:32:16,920 --> 01:32:20,160
Speaker 3: and their collaborators, lots of other academic institutions. One of

1546
01:32:20,200 --> 01:32:23,400
Speaker 3: our team members, one of our forest conservation director, Sarah

1547
01:32:23,479 --> 01:32:27,880
Speaker 3: serv has been a collaborator in this work. They've got

1548
01:32:27,920 --> 01:32:33,440
Speaker 3: like thirty thousand, actually close to forty thousand GPS coordinates

1549
01:32:33,439 --> 01:32:36,760
Speaker 3: of migrating Woodcock now, so we can see at the

1550
01:32:36,800 --> 01:32:39,280
Speaker 3: flyway scale, like here are places that are very important

1551
01:32:39,280 --> 01:32:42,760
Speaker 3: for us to think about providing habitat, whether it's along

1552
01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:48,639
Speaker 3: the Atlantic coast or along the Mississippi Flyway. Being able

1553
01:32:48,640 --> 01:32:51,080
Speaker 3: to target these treatments in a way where you're providing

1554
01:32:51,520 --> 01:32:55,200
Speaker 3: key habitat in places where it might be limited, and

1555
01:32:55,280 --> 01:32:58,280
Speaker 3: it gives you just some tremendous insights into the trials

1556
01:32:58,320 --> 01:33:00,840
Speaker 3: and tribulations. I mean one thing folks are interested in.

1557
01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:04,200
Speaker 3: Looking at recent news stories, these big spring storms or

1558
01:33:04,320 --> 01:33:06,280
Speaker 3: I guess late winter storms is a better way to

1559
01:33:06,280 --> 01:33:08,960
Speaker 3: describe it. Obviously that have happened on the East coast.

1560
01:33:10,400 --> 01:33:15,040
Speaker 3: There have been some tremendous woodcock casualties as a result.

1561
01:33:16,160 --> 01:33:19,519
Speaker 3: There's a point in New Jersey called Cape May, which

1562
01:33:19,560 --> 01:33:22,719
Speaker 3: is sort of like a funnel along the Atlantic Flyway

1563
01:33:22,760 --> 01:33:26,440
Speaker 3: that is notorious for getting lots lots of young woodcock

1564
01:33:26,640 --> 01:33:30,000
Speaker 3: and into that area. And that's a place where a

1565
01:33:30,080 --> 01:33:34,520
Speaker 3: couple of big storms go between frozen ground and snowfall

1566
01:33:34,920 --> 01:33:39,599
Speaker 3: and really cold temperatures. They had hundreds of woodcock die

1567
01:33:39,760 --> 01:33:42,400
Speaker 3: on site, like freezing and starving on site during these

1568
01:33:42,439 --> 01:33:48,320
Speaker 3: migration events. So that all paints a picture of just

1569
01:33:48,400 --> 01:33:53,799
Speaker 3: how demanding for a bird of that size these seasonal

1570
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:56,559
Speaker 3: migrations are. Like any bird that makes it through one

1571
01:33:56,560 --> 01:33:59,799
Speaker 3: of those cycles and is able to reproduce and rear offspring,

1572
01:34:00,520 --> 01:34:01,680
Speaker 3: it's a hell of an accomplishment.

1573
01:34:01,800 --> 01:34:05,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like you know, a two three year old turkey's

1574
01:34:05,560 --> 01:34:08,280
Speaker 2: an old man, Like gobbler's an old man. Like how

1575
01:34:08,680 --> 01:34:11,320
Speaker 2: like rough grouse and woodcock like I assume like not

1576
01:34:11,439 --> 01:34:13,000
Speaker 2: many make a pass the first.

1577
01:34:12,800 --> 01:34:16,800
Speaker 3: Year, very high mortality from one age class to the next,

1578
01:34:16,840 --> 01:34:17,200
Speaker 3: for sure.

1579
01:34:17,479 --> 01:34:17,759
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1580
01:34:17,800 --> 01:34:21,839
Speaker 3: And in the case of woodcock, you know, the migration

1581
01:34:22,560 --> 01:34:26,599
Speaker 3: poses a whole set of risks that rough grouse aren't

1582
01:34:26,600 --> 01:34:29,000
Speaker 3: subject to. You know, they're flying into windows, they're flying

1583
01:34:29,040 --> 01:34:32,160
Speaker 3: into buildings, they're getting smoked by owls. A lot of

1584
01:34:32,200 --> 01:34:35,840
Speaker 3: the movement that woodcock are engaging in during migration is

1585
01:34:35,840 --> 01:34:40,599
Speaker 3: happening at night as well, so they Yeah, they're subject

1586
01:34:40,640 --> 01:34:43,040
Speaker 3: to very high mortality. And certainly in the case of

1587
01:34:43,080 --> 01:34:45,519
Speaker 3: grouse too, Like there's nothing in the woods that eats

1588
01:34:45,680 --> 01:34:47,920
Speaker 3: meat that doesn't want to eat a grouse, right, Like

1589
01:34:47,960 --> 01:34:50,720
Speaker 3: a grouse is a snack for anything out there, So

1590
01:34:50,960 --> 01:34:54,639
Speaker 3: very high mortality during that first Basically, if you look

1591
01:34:54,640 --> 01:34:57,120
Speaker 3: at from year zero to one, one to two, two

1592
01:34:57,200 --> 01:35:00,479
Speaker 3: to three, every one of those stages, you're seeing very

1593
01:35:00,520 --> 01:35:02,120
Speaker 3: immortality for both of these species.

1594
01:35:03,320 --> 01:35:04,880
Speaker 2: I had a question I wanted to ask you, and

1595
01:35:05,200 --> 01:35:07,559
Speaker 2: that actually has to do with turkeys and maybe a

1596
01:35:07,560 --> 01:35:13,839
Speaker 2: conspiracy theory. Is there any correlation between like the rise

1597
01:35:14,240 --> 01:35:18,320
Speaker 2: of the wild turkey, like the comeback, yeah, and the

1598
01:35:18,360 --> 01:35:21,400
Speaker 2: fall of the grouse because it's kind of like happening

1599
01:35:21,439 --> 01:35:22,479
Speaker 2: at the same time, right.

1600
01:35:22,520 --> 01:35:25,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard those stories, and I think my answer

1601
01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:29,920
Speaker 3: to that is when it comes to thinking about drivers

1602
01:35:29,960 --> 01:35:34,040
Speaker 3: of either success or failure for both rough grouse and

1603
01:35:34,160 --> 01:35:39,439
Speaker 3: wild turkeys, and like, pick your hunted species if you

1604
01:35:39,439 --> 01:35:40,760
Speaker 3: want to just look at us at this from the

1605
01:35:40,840 --> 01:35:42,760
Speaker 3: lens of hunting, I mean whitetail deer. You mentioned your

1606
01:35:42,760 --> 01:35:43,960
Speaker 3: story from Michigan, Steve.

1607
01:35:45,640 --> 01:35:46,320
Speaker 1: We're dealing with.

1608
01:35:46,280 --> 01:35:52,480
Speaker 3: Species that evolved with forests where disturbance equals habitat period.

1609
01:35:52,680 --> 01:35:54,280
Speaker 3: So when we talk about doing things that are good

1610
01:35:54,320 --> 01:35:56,040
Speaker 3: for grouse, or doing things that are good for turkey,

1611
01:35:56,400 --> 01:35:58,080
Speaker 3: or doing things that are good for white tail deer,

1612
01:35:58,560 --> 01:36:01,840
Speaker 3: we're talking about benefiting the four and the rising tide

1613
01:36:01,840 --> 01:36:04,599
Speaker 3: lifting all boats, and this idea of like, oh, we've

1614
01:36:04,600 --> 01:36:06,439
Speaker 3: got turkeys back on the landscape now, that's going to

1615
01:36:06,479 --> 01:36:08,840
Speaker 3: be terrible for grouse. My answer to that would be

1616
01:36:09,320 --> 01:36:12,280
Speaker 3: if we have good habitat and a good juxtaposition of

1617
01:36:12,320 --> 01:36:15,920
Speaker 3: that diversity that's accessible to turkeys and to grouse. There

1618
01:36:15,960 --> 01:36:19,679
Speaker 3: may be some flukey case where a turkey disturbs ground

1619
01:36:19,720 --> 01:36:22,200
Speaker 3: a ground nest. I'm sure that happens. I mean, turkeys

1620
01:36:22,200 --> 01:36:26,000
Speaker 3: are They're a source of disturbance and disruption. They're clawn

1621
01:36:26,080 --> 01:36:28,080
Speaker 3: and dig in, and I have no doubt that that

1622
01:36:28,240 --> 01:36:33,280
Speaker 3: has happened and does happen. But nest mortality is par

1623
01:36:33,439 --> 01:36:35,280
Speaker 3: for the course. There's a whole host of other things

1624
01:36:35,320 --> 01:36:37,679
Speaker 3: out there that are taking out nests too. We should

1625
01:36:37,680 --> 01:36:43,000
Speaker 3: never expect rough grouse or woodcock to you know, succeed

1626
01:36:43,040 --> 01:36:46,080
Speaker 3: in every nesting attempt. But if we have really good habitat,

1627
01:36:46,160 --> 01:36:49,160
Speaker 3: and if we have lots of females attempting to nest,

1628
01:36:49,800 --> 01:36:53,200
Speaker 3: we're going to have lots of birds. So I would

1629
01:36:53,280 --> 01:36:57,320
Speaker 3: I would debunk that a bit and say, focusing in

1630
01:36:57,360 --> 01:36:58,639
Speaker 3: on habitat, it.

1631
01:36:58,560 --> 01:37:01,720
Speaker 1: Brings up there's an interesting point to it that that

1632
01:37:02,439 --> 01:37:04,840
Speaker 1: there's an interesting point you make that I hadn't thought

1633
01:37:04,840 --> 01:37:08,559
Speaker 1: of a lot of times we because we focus on

1634
01:37:08,720 --> 01:37:11,200
Speaker 1: like as hunters or anglers or whatever, you focus on

1635
01:37:11,240 --> 01:37:14,599
Speaker 1: your favorite game species, right, meaning like you might look

1636
01:37:14,840 --> 01:37:17,200
Speaker 1: maybe you bass fish some lake and you kind of track,

1637
01:37:17,360 --> 01:37:22,200
Speaker 1: like what's going on with the bass that lake? And

1638
01:37:22,240 --> 01:37:26,400
Speaker 1: you'll you'll have pet theories about what impacted bass, right,

1639
01:37:26,560 --> 01:37:29,280
Speaker 1: Or you might look at like what's impacting mule deer? Yeah,

1640
01:37:30,720 --> 01:37:33,000
Speaker 1: And you look and it's like you find this suite

1641
01:37:33,040 --> 01:37:39,679
Speaker 1: of factors that maybe like pertains very particularly to mule deer,

1642
01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:45,160
Speaker 1: or some things that pertain very particularly to elk. Right,

1643
01:37:46,640 --> 01:37:49,639
Speaker 1: it's interesting to think of what the woodcock and rough

1644
01:37:50,040 --> 01:37:57,160
Speaker 1: grouse decline as being that like we know those ones

1645
01:37:57,160 --> 01:38:00,320
Speaker 1: and love them, but what we're talking about is like

1646
01:38:00,520 --> 01:38:05,479
Speaker 1: land birds. Yeah, forest health. Yeah, what we're talking about

1647
01:38:05,520 --> 01:38:07,880
Speaker 1: is forest health. Yeah, because I think that you tend

1648
01:38:07,880 --> 01:38:11,000
Speaker 1: to like, in my mind, like if i'm you know, whatever,

1649
01:38:11,080 --> 01:38:14,599
Speaker 1: if I'm talking about black tail deer on some island

1650
01:38:14,920 --> 01:38:18,679
Speaker 1: in Alaska, I'm usually looking at what is impacting black

1651
01:38:18,680 --> 01:38:22,800
Speaker 1: tail deer? Yeah. Right, It's interesting to take a thing

1652
01:38:22,880 --> 01:38:26,680
Speaker 1: like this and be like, what is impacting birds? Right?

1653
01:38:27,880 --> 01:38:30,880
Speaker 1: One of which or two of which are these ones

1654
01:38:30,880 --> 01:38:35,040
Speaker 1: that you're intensely focused on, but that that unbeknownst to you,

1655
01:38:36,520 --> 01:38:41,840
Speaker 1: they're they're going away as well. You know, yes, but

1656
01:38:41,960 --> 01:38:44,280
Speaker 1: you missed it. You missed it because you're just thinking

1657
01:38:44,280 --> 01:38:48,120
Speaker 1: about the ones you are looking for, you know, right.

1658
01:38:49,240 --> 01:38:50,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, And even if you want to get into some

1659
01:38:50,720 --> 01:38:53,479
Speaker 3: of the specific drivers, like just briefly back to this

1660
01:38:53,600 --> 01:38:57,959
Speaker 3: idea of the West Nile virus as a cause of decline,

1661
01:38:59,520 --> 01:39:03,640
Speaker 3: they're too the idea that you can really focus on

1662
01:39:03,680 --> 01:39:07,439
Speaker 3: habitat quality to help kind of buffer the impact of

1663
01:39:07,479 --> 01:39:10,280
Speaker 3: that disease agent. If you think about a bird, that's like,

1664
01:39:11,479 --> 01:39:14,000
Speaker 3: I'm getting at this idea of cumulative effects, right.

1665
01:39:14,000 --> 01:39:15,080
Speaker 1: If you have a bird that is.

1666
01:39:15,040 --> 01:39:21,400
Speaker 3: Struggling to take in enough calories, and it's also subject

1667
01:39:21,479 --> 01:39:24,600
Speaker 3: to slightly higher predation risk because it doesn't have the

1668
01:39:24,600 --> 01:39:28,799
Speaker 3: structural complexity to hide from death from above you know, hawks,

1669
01:39:28,800 --> 01:39:33,559
Speaker 3: owls or coyotes, fox, whatever, and then on top of

1670
01:39:33,560 --> 01:39:37,800
Speaker 3: that you add a disease that's further weakening that bird

1671
01:39:38,120 --> 01:39:41,519
Speaker 3: versus a bird that is diseased but also has really

1672
01:39:41,560 --> 01:39:45,280
Speaker 3: good forage, really good habitat. It's not any one of

1673
01:39:45,320 --> 01:39:49,600
Speaker 3: these things, right. It's very rare in ecological science to

1674
01:39:49,600 --> 01:39:52,080
Speaker 3: be like, no, there's the cause, there's the effect, right.

1675
01:39:52,200 --> 01:39:57,280
Speaker 3: Much more often it's these complex interconnections and feedback loops

1676
01:39:57,360 --> 01:40:00,960
Speaker 3: and death by a thousand cuts as a to well,

1677
01:40:00,960 --> 01:40:04,800
Speaker 3: here's the one thing that explains it all. But in

1678
01:40:04,840 --> 01:40:07,639
Speaker 3: the case of these eastern forests, it's like, the one

1679
01:40:07,720 --> 01:40:11,080
Speaker 3: thing that explains it all is that we have not

1680
01:40:11,320 --> 01:40:16,160
Speaker 3: done a good job of maintaining the diversity and disturbance,

1681
01:40:16,240 --> 01:40:22,160
Speaker 3: and that includes everything ranging from driving passenger pigeons to

1682
01:40:22,240 --> 01:40:31,120
Speaker 3: extinction extirpating eastern elk and bison up through. I love

1683
01:40:31,160 --> 01:40:33,439
Speaker 3: the word use neglect because I think that is a

1684
01:40:33,439 --> 01:40:36,280
Speaker 3: perfect label for many of our eastern forests, is that

1685
01:40:36,320 --> 01:40:39,439
Speaker 3: they have been neglected. And part of the tragedy is

1686
01:40:39,479 --> 01:40:42,760
Speaker 3: that now you have people who I think their hearts

1687
01:40:42,760 --> 01:40:46,240
Speaker 3: are in the right place, but they're strongly advocating for

1688
01:40:46,320 --> 01:40:50,120
Speaker 3: continuing to neglect the forests that they claim to love.

1689
01:40:52,479 --> 01:40:56,080
Speaker 2: Cutting down all those trees in this place, neglect by inaction,

1690
01:40:56,400 --> 01:40:57,200
Speaker 2: just letting them sit.

1691
01:40:57,479 --> 01:41:01,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, this idea, that this idea, and I think this

1692
01:41:01,479 --> 01:41:09,880
Speaker 3: is such a powerful it's such a powerful thing to

1693
01:41:09,880 --> 01:41:15,559
Speaker 3: really think about, because a lot of folks, who I

1694
01:41:15,600 --> 01:41:18,760
Speaker 3: believe have their hearts in the right place, they think

1695
01:41:18,800 --> 01:41:22,799
Speaker 3: about human beings as being only capable of making things

1696
01:41:22,840 --> 01:41:28,200
Speaker 3: worse in the environment. We're the problem too many people.

1697
01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:34,479
Speaker 3: You know, all we do is pillage and pollute. And

1698
01:41:34,560 --> 01:41:36,799
Speaker 3: when you really start looking at our history as a species,

1699
01:41:36,840 --> 01:41:40,680
Speaker 3: and you start looking at all the different cultures and

1700
01:41:40,720 --> 01:41:44,200
Speaker 3: relationships that people have to different ecosystems around the planet

1701
01:41:44,880 --> 01:41:48,879
Speaker 3: and thinking about it more carefully, for the vast majority

1702
01:41:48,880 --> 01:41:50,840
Speaker 3: of our existence, we have been in the business of

1703
01:41:51,680 --> 01:41:55,360
Speaker 3: actively taking care of the places that support our existence.

1704
01:41:55,720 --> 01:41:59,960
Speaker 3: We have been we have been dependent on the act

1705
01:42:00,320 --> 01:42:05,240
Speaker 3: that we take mediated through the land for our very survival.

1706
01:42:05,400 --> 01:42:08,280
Speaker 3: So this idea that somehow you step back and take

1707
01:42:08,320 --> 01:42:10,679
Speaker 3: a hands off approach nature will take care of itself.

1708
01:42:11,240 --> 01:42:15,280
Speaker 3: That ignores the reality that we are fundamentally a part

1709
01:42:15,320 --> 01:42:23,240
Speaker 3: of nature, right So it it it's a troubling worldview

1710
01:42:24,439 --> 01:42:28,400
Speaker 3: at the deepest of levels because it takes this role

1711
01:42:28,640 --> 01:42:32,960
Speaker 3: that we should be embracing and points to that as

1712
01:42:32,960 --> 01:42:36,280
Speaker 3: if it's a problem. The only thing we can do

1713
01:42:36,360 --> 01:42:38,200
Speaker 3: is make things worse in the environment. That is just

1714
01:42:38,280 --> 01:42:41,040
Speaker 3: simply not the case. We have been in the business

1715
01:42:41,040 --> 01:42:43,679
Speaker 3: of interacting with and being a part of these systems.

1716
01:42:43,720 --> 01:42:45,920
Speaker 3: And that's the thing, man, the more I'm thinking through this,

1717
01:42:46,520 --> 01:42:51,120
Speaker 3: that's the problem is it takes us and removes us

1718
01:42:51,320 --> 01:42:54,840
Speaker 3: from the system and we you know, we look over there,

1719
01:42:54,840 --> 01:42:57,400
Speaker 3: there's nature. Don't mess it up, as opposed to we

1720
01:42:57,479 --> 01:43:00,639
Speaker 3: are in this thing. And if you want to zoom

1721
01:43:00,640 --> 01:43:03,680
Speaker 3: back to like a global scale, whether you live in

1722
01:43:03,680 --> 01:43:07,120
Speaker 3: an urban environment, whether you live in a rural landscape,

1723
01:43:07,160 --> 01:43:10,439
Speaker 3: whether you're in a flavella somewhere in South America, or

1724
01:43:10,439 --> 01:43:15,160
Speaker 3: whether you're living in remote Alaska, all of us are

1725
01:43:15,200 --> 01:43:17,880
Speaker 3: existing within this closed system, right, and we're all making

1726
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:22,360
Speaker 3: decisions individually and cumulatively that influenced the trajectory of that

1727
01:43:22,400 --> 01:43:25,479
Speaker 3: closed system. So approaching it in a way where you're

1728
01:43:25,479 --> 01:43:29,040
Speaker 3: actually embracing the fact that you have a responsibility to

1729
01:43:29,120 --> 01:43:31,799
Speaker 3: take action to try to make things better for the future,

1730
01:43:32,439 --> 01:43:34,760
Speaker 3: as opposed to, well, that's nature over there. I'm over

1731
01:43:34,760 --> 01:43:38,000
Speaker 3: here doing my thing, let nature figure it out like

1732
01:43:38,080 --> 01:43:40,519
Speaker 3: that is a very deeply flawed worldview in my opinion,

1733
01:43:41,240 --> 01:43:41,519
Speaker 3: m H.

1734
01:43:46,360 --> 01:43:50,439
Speaker 1: When we talk about the anthroposcene meaning that, like the

1735
01:43:50,479 --> 01:43:54,559
Speaker 1: anthroposcene is this concept that you know, like we think

1736
01:43:54,560 --> 01:43:57,040
Speaker 1: of the places scene as the ice ages that was

1737
01:43:57,080 --> 01:44:01,760
Speaker 1: followed by the Holocene, let me be very quickly entered the anthropoiscene,

1738
01:44:01,880 --> 01:44:05,160
Speaker 1: meaning that humans. When people use that term, what they're

1739
01:44:05,160 --> 01:44:09,799
Speaker 1: saying is that humans are the dominant force, the dominant

1740
01:44:09,800 --> 01:44:14,760
Speaker 1: global force on habitats, the dominant global force on ecology,

1741
01:44:15,640 --> 01:44:24,120
Speaker 1: or the dominant force. Part of recognizing that needs to

1742
01:44:24,160 --> 01:44:31,240
Speaker 1: be embracing that role to be like, Okay, if that's

1743
01:44:31,280 --> 01:44:34,200
Speaker 1: the case, then maybe we need to be the dominant

1744
01:44:34,240 --> 01:44:37,000
Speaker 1: force of good as well in someplace love that.

1745
01:44:37,160 --> 01:44:41,400
Speaker 3: You know, I mean, there's no more powerful ecosystem engineer

1746
01:44:41,520 --> 01:44:45,120
Speaker 3: than Homo sapiens, right, Like, we have been manipulating the

1747
01:44:45,120 --> 01:44:50,559
Speaker 3: face of this planet to benefit ourselves for forever, but

1748
01:44:50,680 --> 01:44:52,840
Speaker 3: we have we have absolutely reached a point in our

1749
01:44:53,000 --> 01:44:56,920
Speaker 3: history as a species where we have we have these

1750
01:44:56,960 --> 01:44:59,240
Speaker 3: controls at our disposal and we can either do things

1751
01:44:59,280 --> 01:45:04,559
Speaker 3: that will promote a future of continued prosperity or and

1752
01:45:04,600 --> 01:45:07,160
Speaker 3: in a lot of places, this is already reality. We've

1753
01:45:07,200 --> 01:45:10,439
Speaker 3: gone so far down this path of manipulating the system

1754
01:45:11,080 --> 01:45:14,680
Speaker 3: for short term gain that we've compromised the ability of

1755
01:45:14,720 --> 01:45:17,439
Speaker 3: those systems to be a source of prosperity to us.

1756
01:45:17,880 --> 01:45:19,720
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of cleanup work to do in

1757
01:45:19,760 --> 01:45:22,519
Speaker 3: those places. But I think what you just said is

1758
01:45:22,840 --> 01:45:24,240
Speaker 3: a super important message.

1759
01:45:24,240 --> 01:45:24,679
Speaker 1: It's like.

1760
01:45:26,400 --> 01:45:29,599
Speaker 3: We need to acknowledge that reality and then approach that

1761
01:45:29,960 --> 01:45:33,720
Speaker 3: with a focus on what are our responsibilities in light

1762
01:45:33,760 --> 01:45:35,880
Speaker 3: of that reality?

1763
01:45:36,720 --> 01:45:40,880
Speaker 1: Do you think that how relational is it? Like? Do

1764
01:45:40,960 --> 01:45:46,240
Speaker 1: you think that I want to see relational? It's a

1765
01:45:46,320 --> 01:45:51,799
Speaker 1: terrible word choice. How much do you think a habitat project,

1766
01:45:52,360 --> 01:45:56,120
Speaker 1: Let's say you do a habitat project on one thousand acres?

1767
01:45:57,160 --> 01:45:59,719
Speaker 1: Can you do a habitat project on one thousand acres?

1768
01:45:59,720 --> 01:46:01,519
Speaker 1: And then come back a couple of years later and

1769
01:46:01,520 --> 01:46:02,800
Speaker 1: be like, oh, the grouse are back.

1770
01:46:04,080 --> 01:46:07,040
Speaker 3: It really depends on where you are. I think in

1771
01:46:07,080 --> 01:46:08,760
Speaker 3: a lot of places the answer is going to be no.

1772
01:46:10,240 --> 01:46:14,240
Speaker 3: Once grouse are gone and you lose like a source population.

1773
01:46:14,400 --> 01:46:17,679
Speaker 3: And they do this, they have this life history trait

1774
01:46:17,920 --> 01:46:21,280
Speaker 3: where you know they hatch in the spring. The broods

1775
01:46:21,320 --> 01:46:23,320
Speaker 3: kind of stick together. If you think about bumping into

1776
01:46:23,479 --> 01:46:25,960
Speaker 3: grouse early season when you're hunting them, oftentimes you'll flush

1777
01:46:26,000 --> 01:46:27,920
Speaker 3: like broods of birds. You'll get almost like a covey

1778
01:46:28,479 --> 01:46:31,719
Speaker 3: flush of grouse. But then they get into a dispersal

1779
01:46:31,760 --> 01:46:36,280
Speaker 3: mode mid fall and birds start striking out to essentially

1780
01:46:36,280 --> 01:46:40,440
Speaker 3: occupy new territory, spread their genes across the landscape, avoid competition,

1781
01:46:41,000 --> 01:46:46,600
Speaker 3: avoid in breeding. So they will cover considerable distances to

1782
01:46:47,360 --> 01:46:51,599
Speaker 3: pioneer unoccupied habitat. But if you do a restoration project

1783
01:46:51,640 --> 01:46:54,280
Speaker 3: in an area where there's no source of rough grouse,

1784
01:46:55,600 --> 01:46:59,080
Speaker 3: they're not They're not gonna find it, and we're not.

1785
01:46:59,640 --> 01:47:02,920
Speaker 3: There is a very poor track record of trying to

1786
01:47:02,920 --> 01:47:06,080
Speaker 3: relocate grouse into previously occupied habitat.

1787
01:47:05,760 --> 01:47:07,040
Speaker 1: They don't do well.

1788
01:47:07,760 --> 01:47:09,320
Speaker 3: So being able to hold on to grouse where we

1789
01:47:09,360 --> 01:47:12,479
Speaker 3: still have them and then focus on trying to restore

1790
01:47:12,520 --> 01:47:15,320
Speaker 3: habitat around the places that are occupied.

1791
01:47:15,439 --> 01:47:18,680
Speaker 1: Very much better course of action. We had a researcher,

1792
01:47:18,760 --> 01:47:20,800
Speaker 1: we had a deer, but you know, it does a

1793
01:47:20,840 --> 01:47:23,400
Speaker 1: lot of work with servants on the podcast one time

1794
01:47:23,439 --> 01:47:25,599
Speaker 1: and he was talking about when you look like, let's

1795
01:47:25,600 --> 01:47:28,000
Speaker 1: say your mealed your hunt, and you look in that

1796
01:47:28,120 --> 01:47:31,080
Speaker 1: perfect stuff and you're like, God, it seems like they'd

1797
01:47:31,120 --> 01:47:33,479
Speaker 1: be here. It looks like it would be perfect. Yeah,

1798
01:47:33,800 --> 01:47:38,719
Speaker 1: He's like, it might be they're not there. Yeah, something

1799
01:47:38,800 --> 01:47:41,599
Speaker 1: happened to They have a lot of fidelity to their area.

1800
01:47:42,200 --> 01:47:44,880
Speaker 1: Something happened to that group. Yeah, and it might be

1801
01:47:44,920 --> 01:47:46,840
Speaker 1: a long time. It might be perfect, It might be

1802
01:47:46,840 --> 01:47:49,400
Speaker 1: the most perfect meal to your country or in your area,

1803
01:47:49,479 --> 01:47:52,479
Speaker 1: but there's just not any there. Yeah, because they don't

1804
01:47:52,520 --> 01:47:56,280
Speaker 1: they haven't colonized it. Yep. They got their own. The

1805
01:47:56,320 --> 01:47:59,679
Speaker 1: ones nearby have their little plan and they're not looking

1806
01:47:59,680 --> 01:48:01,479
Speaker 1: for a new spot, and it can take a long

1807
01:48:01,520 --> 01:48:04,599
Speaker 1: time to put them back when you have an event. Yeah,

1808
01:48:04,680 --> 01:48:05,920
Speaker 1: carry them away, yep.

1809
01:48:06,000 --> 01:48:09,040
Speaker 3: I think there's some applicability there, and that's in obviously

1810
01:48:09,479 --> 01:48:12,519
Speaker 3: direct contrast with Woodcock, where they're they're going to find

1811
01:48:12,520 --> 01:48:13,720
Speaker 3: it they're going to find it, which is one of

1812
01:48:13,760 --> 01:48:16,040
Speaker 3: the advantages. We've talked about some of the disadvantages of

1813
01:48:16,080 --> 01:48:20,360
Speaker 3: being a migratory species, but in advantages, you're surveying that

1814
01:48:21,080 --> 01:48:24,720
Speaker 3: landscape with fresh eyes every year and taking advantage where

1815
01:48:24,720 --> 01:48:25,679
Speaker 3: habitats popping out.

1816
01:48:25,840 --> 01:48:28,040
Speaker 1: It's interesting to me that putting grouse out on the

1817
01:48:28,080 --> 01:48:30,320
Speaker 1: ground doesn't work like putting turkeys out on the ground.

1818
01:48:30,479 --> 01:48:32,320
Speaker 3: They have not done well with reintroduction.

1819
01:48:33,400 --> 01:48:34,840
Speaker 1: What do you think it is, because it's they just

1820
01:48:34,880 --> 01:48:37,360
Speaker 1: don't they don't carry with them like a sort of

1821
01:48:37,479 --> 01:48:40,519
Speaker 1: generational land use plan. It's a good question.

1822
01:48:40,600 --> 01:48:40,720
Speaker 4: Man.

1823
01:48:40,760 --> 01:48:43,040
Speaker 3: I wish I knew. I wish I knew more about

1824
01:48:43,560 --> 01:48:49,920
Speaker 3: the constraints on survivorship of translocated grouse. I I know

1825
01:48:50,040 --> 01:48:54,120
Speaker 3: that it has been attempted in many settings, and I'm

1826
01:48:54,160 --> 01:48:57,040
Speaker 3: aware of no successful reintroduction efforts.

1827
01:48:57,080 --> 01:48:58,120
Speaker 1: They got to do their own thing.

1828
01:48:58,840 --> 01:49:01,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you got to preserve those pockets yea, and

1829
01:49:01,320 --> 01:49:04,040
Speaker 3: build out from there. And and you know, we do

1830
01:49:04,120 --> 01:49:09,040
Speaker 3: have just some tremendous strongholds still. But that the thing

1831
01:49:09,080 --> 01:49:13,320
Speaker 3: that is both both like most frustrating and most encouraging

1832
01:49:13,520 --> 01:49:17,559
Speaker 3: is that it's not we're not scratching our heads like man,

1833
01:49:17,600 --> 01:49:20,519
Speaker 3: if we could just figure out right, it's like we know,

1834
01:49:21,400 --> 01:49:24,760
Speaker 3: we know what needs to be done, and it's also

1835
01:49:25,520 --> 01:49:30,719
Speaker 3: a set of actions that is broadly beneficial beyond these

1836
01:49:30,720 --> 01:49:34,640
Speaker 3: two iconic species. So that's where like the idea of

1837
01:49:34,680 --> 01:49:40,840
Speaker 3: trying to get some coalitions built around leaving those conditions,

1838
01:49:40,880 --> 01:49:43,559
Speaker 3: like the partnership with the Rocky Mount Elk Foundation, the

1839
01:49:43,600 --> 01:49:50,519
Speaker 3: partnership with American Bird Conservancy, we have a shared vision

1840
01:49:50,560 --> 01:49:52,240
Speaker 3: of what needs to be done.

1841
01:49:52,600 --> 01:49:55,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, those kinds of things are frustrating in their own way.

1842
01:49:55,680 --> 01:49:58,920
Speaker 1: I think when you look at big conservation problems, you

1843
01:49:58,960 --> 01:50:02,240
Speaker 1: have the ones you'd be like like acidification of the oceans.

1844
01:50:03,040 --> 01:50:04,920
Speaker 1: You know, you're like, good luck with that, do you

1845
01:50:05,000 --> 01:50:08,360
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like like something that would call

1846
01:50:08,439 --> 01:50:12,880
Speaker 1: for sort of like a global change in habits that

1847
01:50:12,920 --> 01:50:17,840
Speaker 1: would impact every person on the planet. Yep, you know,

1848
01:50:18,280 --> 01:50:22,560
Speaker 1: like that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. But then you

1849
01:50:22,640 --> 01:50:25,240
Speaker 1: got conservation problems where you're like, dude, it's read at

1850
01:50:25,240 --> 01:50:28,080
Speaker 1: our fingertips. Yeah, it's right at our fingertips. It's not

1851
01:50:28,160 --> 01:50:34,200
Speaker 1: even like it's so achievable, right Yeah, And King Sam

1852
01:50:34,200 --> 01:50:36,439
Speaker 1: and people are like they don't even know where to begin. Yeah,

1853
01:50:36,600 --> 01:50:38,320
Speaker 1: deal me with king salmon, It's hard to know where

1854
01:50:38,360 --> 01:50:38,679
Speaker 1: to begin.

1855
01:50:38,920 --> 01:50:42,360
Speaker 2: It'd be a bummer to see like that species, that

1856
01:50:42,479 --> 01:50:46,880
Speaker 2: hunting opportunity to like blink out in your lifetime because

1857
01:50:46,920 --> 01:50:50,080
Speaker 2: so much of it has gotten better over time. Right, Like,

1858
01:50:50,520 --> 01:50:52,400
Speaker 2: if you're an elk hunter, it's a pretty good time

1859
01:50:52,400 --> 01:50:54,320
Speaker 2: to be an elk hunter, white tail hunter, you know,

1860
01:50:54,960 --> 01:50:59,120
Speaker 2: you name it. It's pretty good. But to see, like,

1861
01:50:59,479 --> 01:51:02,760
Speaker 2: do you and vision the trend being more states closing

1862
01:51:02,800 --> 01:51:08,439
Speaker 2: seasons or restricting seasons or status quo or.

1863
01:51:08,439 --> 01:51:10,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think we're on a trajectory that

1864
01:51:10,880 --> 01:51:14,000
Speaker 3: we're likely to see continued loss of opportunity.

1865
01:51:14,080 --> 01:51:15,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know a couple examples.

1866
01:51:15,960 --> 01:51:19,639
Speaker 3: New Jersey's of state where they had a season that's

1867
01:51:19,680 --> 01:51:22,600
Speaker 3: been closed. I think twenty nineteen for that one. Indiana

1868
01:51:23,640 --> 01:51:26,439
Speaker 3: lost its season in twenty fifteen, and now rough grouse

1869
01:51:26,479 --> 01:51:31,400
Speaker 3: are listed on the state endangered species list. Missouri no season,

1870
01:51:31,520 --> 01:51:37,479
Speaker 3: Ohio flirting with potentially a steeply restricted season.

1871
01:51:37,560 --> 01:51:37,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1872
01:51:37,760 --> 01:51:40,640
Speaker 2: I think Pennsylvania had an early and a late and

1873
01:51:40,680 --> 01:51:43,040
Speaker 2: they got rid of one. Maybe the late season like

1874
01:51:43,120 --> 01:51:44,599
Speaker 2: after Christmas.

1875
01:51:44,120 --> 01:51:46,760
Speaker 1: Got Michigan still just got a doozy of a season. Man.

1876
01:51:46,920 --> 01:51:49,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's long, Yeah, yeah, them right up through the

1877
01:51:49,840 --> 01:51:53,759
Speaker 3: end of the calendar year and September fifteen, right, Yeah,

1878
01:51:54,000 --> 01:51:58,679
Speaker 3: that's right, Opener, a sacred day for those hillbelly kids

1879
01:51:58,680 --> 01:52:01,160
Speaker 3: of the North woods man take that day off of school.

1880
01:52:01,400 --> 01:52:07,880
Speaker 1: Go squirrel and grouse, Hutton. Those are all restrictions that

1881
01:52:07,920 --> 01:52:10,919
Speaker 1: came out like in our lifetimes for sure. Oh yeah,

1882
01:52:11,280 --> 01:52:12,840
Speaker 1: what else? What else you got on that list?

1883
01:52:13,960 --> 01:52:14,680
Speaker 3: Uh?

1884
01:52:15,840 --> 01:52:19,639
Speaker 1: Well, I just I think this is not but speak

1885
01:52:19,640 --> 01:52:22,160
Speaker 1: to the fact that this is all southern extent, right,

1886
01:52:22,520 --> 01:52:26,120
Speaker 1: is it because it was the poorest populations? Well, I

1887
01:52:26,120 --> 01:52:28,920
Speaker 1: think it was just kind of naturally borderline, it was

1888
01:52:29,080 --> 01:52:30,639
Speaker 1: naturally fringe habitat. Yeah.

1889
01:52:30,720 --> 01:52:32,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you're starting to get you're starting to

1890
01:52:32,560 --> 01:52:37,120
Speaker 3: get into areas where the if you look at the

1891
01:52:37,160 --> 01:52:39,800
Speaker 3: distribution aspen. I made the comment earlier that aspen is

1892
01:52:39,840 --> 01:52:43,120
Speaker 3: not the key, but it's a really important aspect of

1893
01:52:43,800 --> 01:52:45,880
Speaker 3: gross habitat in many places, you're starting to get into

1894
01:52:45,880 --> 01:52:49,040
Speaker 3: areas where that species is not available to provide food

1895
01:52:49,080 --> 01:52:53,240
Speaker 3: and cover. You're also looking at places where these forest

1896
01:52:53,600 --> 01:52:57,520
Speaker 3: change dynamics that we've talked about musification lack of disturbance.

1897
01:52:57,960 --> 01:52:59,919
Speaker 3: That is absolutely the case. One of the most compelling

1898
01:53:00,000 --> 01:53:02,919
Speaker 3: examples of that going back to Doug Duran the Driftless

1899
01:53:02,920 --> 01:53:05,840
Speaker 3: area in southwest Wisconsin, if you look like twenty five,

1900
01:53:05,960 --> 01:53:09,160
Speaker 3: thirty forty years ago, grouse numbers in southwest Wisconsin were

1901
01:53:09,160 --> 01:53:14,720
Speaker 3: off the charts, like phenomenal rough grouse habitat. Now it's

1902
01:53:14,880 --> 01:53:17,479
Speaker 3: unusual to hear that I've talked about a drumming grouse

1903
01:53:17,520 --> 01:53:22,360
Speaker 3: in the Driftless area. So yeah, so what happened just

1904
01:53:22,600 --> 01:53:27,280
Speaker 3: the habit habitat change, lack of change gone gone for now.

1905
01:53:27,520 --> 01:53:30,000
Speaker 3: And the problem is, you know, like we were just

1906
01:53:30,040 --> 01:53:32,519
Speaker 3: talking about with the sort of mule deer story there,

1907
01:53:33,360 --> 01:53:35,080
Speaker 3: if you get to the point where the habitat's gone

1908
01:53:35,120 --> 01:53:38,320
Speaker 3: long enough in the populations dwindled to the point you're

1909
01:53:40,000 --> 01:53:41,439
Speaker 3: I'm not going to say you're never going to get

1910
01:53:41,479 --> 01:53:43,679
Speaker 3: him back, but you are facing a very steep uphill

1911
01:53:43,680 --> 01:53:44,080
Speaker 3: battle at that.

1912
01:53:44,160 --> 01:53:49,800
Speaker 2: So if we're like the northern populations, like whatever, northern Wisconsin, Maine, Minnesota,

1913
01:53:50,720 --> 01:53:54,080
Speaker 2: where they're doing well, is it just like why are

1914
01:53:54,080 --> 01:53:57,000
Speaker 2: they doing like, is it just that stuff's not getting

1915
01:53:57,040 --> 01:53:59,479
Speaker 2: messed with? It's the right habitat and it's staying the

1916
01:53:59,560 --> 01:54:03,160
Speaker 2: right habit like because if it if this good habitat

1917
01:54:03,560 --> 01:54:08,000
Speaker 2: depends on disturbance, Like what kind of disturbance is going

1918
01:54:08,040 --> 01:54:09,639
Speaker 2: on up there that keeps things?

1919
01:54:09,920 --> 01:54:11,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you're you're right, you're right in the core

1920
01:54:11,760 --> 01:54:14,080
Speaker 3: of their range in terms of climate, in terms of

1921
01:54:14,120 --> 01:54:17,200
Speaker 3: the vegetation community. You know, I'm thinking, I'm envisioning this

1922
01:54:17,240 --> 01:54:20,559
Speaker 3: spot right now in the in the up where it's

1923
01:54:20,640 --> 01:54:24,559
Speaker 3: just like this tangle of fifteen ten to fifteen year

1924
01:54:24,560 --> 01:54:29,599
Speaker 3: old aspen understory of which hazel. It's like every you've

1925
01:54:29,600 --> 01:54:35,440
Speaker 3: got like winter green, it's it's just food everywhere, covers phenomenal.

1926
01:54:37,000 --> 01:54:39,880
Speaker 3: Typically you have a good snowpack and rough grouse will

1927
01:54:39,880 --> 01:54:42,919
Speaker 3: burrow into the snow and see thermal refuge in cold conditions.

1928
01:54:42,920 --> 01:54:45,120
Speaker 3: So having that snow cover is a big deal. If

1929
01:54:45,120 --> 01:54:48,880
Speaker 3: you have crappy snow snow years grouser at higher risk

1930
01:54:48,920 --> 01:54:51,000
Speaker 3: of freezing in cold temperatures.

1931
01:54:50,480 --> 01:54:52,160
Speaker 1: It's not good news around here, you know.

1932
01:54:52,720 --> 01:54:55,800
Speaker 3: So so you're in a really sweet spot. It's like,

1933
01:54:55,840 --> 01:54:58,520
Speaker 3: you're right, You're right in the wheelhouse of where those

1934
01:54:58,520 --> 01:55:04,160
Speaker 3: birds evolve to be. And so now I'm thinking about

1935
01:55:04,400 --> 01:55:07,160
Speaker 3: some very cool work that's been happening in the central

1936
01:55:07,280 --> 01:55:10,400
Speaker 3: Upper Peninsula, Michigan looking at the management of these remnant

1937
01:55:10,400 --> 01:55:12,840
Speaker 3: boreal forest ecosystems where you're kind of on the fringe,

1938
01:55:13,320 --> 01:55:17,160
Speaker 3: like I'm thinking about snowshoe hares as well, right populations

1939
01:55:17,160 --> 01:55:22,240
Speaker 3: of snowshoe hares, ruffed grouse, a whole host of species

1940
01:55:22,280 --> 01:55:25,160
Speaker 3: that have significance from the standpoint of food and medicine

1941
01:55:25,200 --> 01:55:27,360
Speaker 3: for tribal communities. So there's some really cool work my

1942
01:55:27,400 --> 01:55:30,560
Speaker 3: buddy Eric Clark and collaborators from the Susaint Retribe of

1943
01:55:30,640 --> 01:55:34,000
Speaker 3: Chippewa Indians working on the Hiawatha National Forest to get

1944
01:55:34,000 --> 01:55:39,240
Speaker 3: more fireback into those systems to promote the diversity of habitat.

1945
01:55:39,280 --> 01:55:43,200
Speaker 3: And if you go back, there are places where, particularly

1946
01:55:43,240 --> 01:55:46,440
Speaker 3: in red pine, you can look at the dendochronology, like

1947
01:55:46,480 --> 01:55:52,640
Speaker 3: the tree history of fire activity in those systems. There's

1948
01:55:52,640 --> 01:55:55,800
Speaker 3: a place called Bechelor's Marsh as an example on the

1949
01:55:55,880 --> 01:56:02,760
Speaker 3: Hiawatha National Forest where red pine dendochronology data shows how

1950
01:56:02,800 --> 01:56:06,560
Speaker 3: frequently fire was burning through those systems prior to European settlement,

1951
01:56:07,240 --> 01:56:10,680
Speaker 3: and it was very high frequency, so very often fire

1952
01:56:11,280 --> 01:56:13,800
Speaker 3: at a low enough severity that the trees were surviving it.

1953
01:56:14,600 --> 01:56:16,200
Speaker 3: And as they've been starting to get some of those

1954
01:56:16,200 --> 01:56:22,640
Speaker 3: fire regimes back into those systems with the tribe really

1955
01:56:22,720 --> 01:56:28,200
Speaker 3: leading that work. The grouse response has been phenomenal, but

1956
01:56:28,240 --> 01:56:30,640
Speaker 3: it's also great habitat. Like they're doing a lot of

1957
01:56:30,640 --> 01:56:33,040
Speaker 3: work trying to keep moose on the landscape. We haven't

1958
01:56:33,040 --> 01:56:34,960
Speaker 3: talked about moose at all. A lot of the work

1959
01:56:35,000 --> 01:56:37,320
Speaker 3: that we're doing thinking about rough grouse habitat in those

1960
01:56:37,320 --> 01:56:42,240
Speaker 3: northern Lake states, A ton of it is also phenomenal

1961
01:56:42,480 --> 01:56:45,680
Speaker 3: moose habitat. There's a collaborative up on the Arrowhead in

1962
01:56:45,720 --> 01:56:49,320
Speaker 3: Minnesota focused on moose habitat. We're right in the mix,

1963
01:56:49,560 --> 01:56:52,120
Speaker 3: partnering with the Forest Service, partnering with the state, partnering

1964
01:56:52,160 --> 01:56:54,800
Speaker 3: with the tribes, trying to get moose habitat on the ground.

1965
01:56:55,720 --> 01:56:57,200
Speaker 3: You call it whatever the hell you want. Yeah, it's

1966
01:56:57,200 --> 01:56:59,800
Speaker 3: great moose habitat. It's also great for all these other species.

1967
01:57:00,080 --> 01:57:02,520
Speaker 3: Talking about I think two.

1968
01:57:02,320 --> 01:57:06,040
Speaker 1: In those northern latitudes you get. I don't really, It's

1969
01:57:06,080 --> 01:57:08,440
Speaker 1: just like just something I sort of noticed and suspect,

1970
01:57:08,480 --> 01:57:11,760
Speaker 1: I guess, is that in those northern latitudes are the

1971
01:57:11,840 --> 01:57:17,520
Speaker 1: really deep snow, different vegetation regimes, whatever, good habitat lingers

1972
01:57:17,640 --> 01:57:20,200
Speaker 1: long time. Hmmm, do you know what I mean? Like,

1973
01:57:20,200 --> 01:57:22,880
Speaker 1: like it's a it seems like successional force is a

1974
01:57:22,920 --> 01:57:27,120
Speaker 1: slower process. Yeah, then it might be in other places. Yeah,

1975
01:57:27,160 --> 01:57:29,000
Speaker 1: I mean those sites like it just take a place,

1976
01:57:29,000 --> 01:57:31,160
Speaker 1: is that that stayed good. I can think of like

1977
01:57:31,240 --> 01:57:34,720
Speaker 1: good grouse spots that have just stayed good for forever. Yeah,

1978
01:57:34,840 --> 01:57:37,320
Speaker 1: then I can think of good grouse spots. It was

1979
01:57:37,360 --> 01:57:40,240
Speaker 1: like they were very ephemeral. Yeah, yeah, they were good

1980
01:57:40,240 --> 01:57:42,320
Speaker 1: for a minute, totally. Yeah, you know, so there's not

1981
01:57:42,360 --> 01:57:43,560
Speaker 1: a minute, but I mean they were good for a

1982
01:57:43,560 --> 01:57:46,160
Speaker 1: few years. But places seem like you're like, shoot, we

1983
01:57:46,200 --> 01:57:49,040
Speaker 1: shot grouse out of there for twenty years. Yeah. Yeah.

1984
01:57:49,120 --> 01:57:51,960
Speaker 3: We talk about like site index or site site richness,

1985
01:57:52,040 --> 01:57:55,960
Speaker 3: site quality, and and that takes into account. It's basically

1986
01:57:55,960 --> 01:57:59,040
Speaker 3: like the capacity of a particular place to grow vegetation.

1987
01:57:59,240 --> 01:58:02,120
Speaker 3: And there's obviously a strong climate component to that. There's

1988
01:58:02,160 --> 01:58:05,720
Speaker 3: also a really strong soil component to that. And a

1989
01:58:05,760 --> 01:58:07,800
Speaker 3: lot of the places when I think about really good

1990
01:58:08,160 --> 01:58:11,720
Speaker 3: grouse and woodcock habitat places where I grew up hunting,

1991
01:58:12,280 --> 01:58:14,200
Speaker 3: you're dealing with pretty poor soils too.

1992
01:58:14,320 --> 01:58:14,440
Speaker 1: Right.

1993
01:58:14,480 --> 01:58:19,880
Speaker 3: It's not like it's not like you you expose the

1994
01:58:19,960 --> 01:58:23,760
Speaker 3: earth to the solar rays and you get like a

1995
01:58:23,880 --> 01:58:27,120
Speaker 3: jungle immediately growing. It's a it's a more drawn out process.

1996
01:58:27,320 --> 01:58:29,320
Speaker 3: And that's in contrast. And I'm thinking back to the

1997
01:58:29,360 --> 01:58:35,040
Speaker 3: time down in Louisiana this past winter, and the site

1998
01:58:35,120 --> 01:58:37,320
Speaker 3: richness on those sites is like off the charts. So

1999
01:58:37,360 --> 01:58:42,080
Speaker 3: they'll they the amount of effort and investment that they

2000
01:58:42,120 --> 01:58:46,760
Speaker 3: have to make in order to keep woodcock habitat on

2001
01:58:46,760 --> 01:58:49,760
Speaker 3: some of those state game lands. Oh it's crazy because

2002
01:58:49,760 --> 01:58:51,520
Speaker 3: like they'll mow it and the next year it's like

2003
01:58:51,560 --> 01:58:54,400
Speaker 3: a jungle has re emerged. Right, So you're you're pointing

2004
01:58:54,400 --> 01:58:55,120
Speaker 3: to something that's.

2005
01:58:54,960 --> 01:58:57,280
Speaker 1: In a lot of that northern grouse habitat, Like in

2006
01:58:57,320 --> 01:59:00,200
Speaker 1: the Upper Great Lakes region, you'd be like, one, why

2007
01:59:00,280 --> 01:59:03,480
Speaker 1: no one's farming this? But because you can't, dude, because

2008
01:59:03,880 --> 01:59:04,880
Speaker 1: in Norwegian.

2009
01:59:06,360 --> 01:59:08,120
Speaker 3: There were a lot of there were a there a

2010
01:59:08,120 --> 01:59:10,920
Speaker 3: lot of frustrated potato farms in the up man a deal.

2011
01:59:10,960 --> 01:59:13,760
Speaker 1: I've noticed too, Man, you probably have seen this, Like

2012
01:59:13,800 --> 01:59:15,840
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of in the county where I grew up

2013
01:59:15,920 --> 01:59:19,000
Speaker 1: and around that area, a lot of times a good

2014
01:59:19,040 --> 01:59:23,960
Speaker 1: grouse pocket would be centered around It's gonna sound weird,

2015
01:59:24,000 --> 01:59:26,280
Speaker 1: it'd be centered around Christmas tree plantations.

2016
01:59:26,320 --> 01:59:28,200
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, doesn't sound weird.

2017
01:59:28,040 --> 01:59:30,720
Speaker 1: Because when you go out and hunt in late season,

2018
01:59:30,800 --> 01:59:33,080
Speaker 1: like you go home for Christmas break or something, Yeah,

2019
01:59:33,120 --> 01:59:35,760
Speaker 1: and you go out, Yeah, all the grouse are in

2020
01:59:35,800 --> 01:59:38,720
Speaker 1: the Christmas tree plantations. Yeah. And it always be that

2021
01:59:38,880 --> 01:59:42,120
Speaker 1: around those big blocks, like you know whatever you got

2022
01:59:42,160 --> 01:59:44,800
Speaker 1: like ten twenty acres of Christmas trees or something. Yeah,

2023
01:59:44,840 --> 01:59:48,520
Speaker 1: it would always be good grouse. Yep. But there's a

2024
01:59:48,560 --> 01:59:50,800
Speaker 1: certain look to those areas too. But I'm just saying

2025
01:59:50,800 --> 01:59:52,520
Speaker 1: it would be like that was sort of like a

2026
01:59:52,560 --> 01:59:55,960
Speaker 1: real holding position. I can think of one on I

2027
01:59:55,960 --> 01:59:58,640
Speaker 1: can think of one of these that was on public land,

2028
01:59:59,040 --> 02:00:02,200
Speaker 1: a man of see Nash Forest was a pine plantation. Yeah,

2029
02:00:02,480 --> 02:00:04,920
Speaker 1: always good grouse in the area because they had that,

2030
02:00:05,280 --> 02:00:07,680
Speaker 1: like you said, their homebodies and they had that like

2031
02:00:07,800 --> 02:00:10,440
Speaker 1: feature and this other on this dude's place used to

2032
02:00:10,480 --> 02:00:12,600
Speaker 1: grow pumpkins. Nice. He'd hired me for a couple days

2033
02:00:12,680 --> 02:00:14,880
Speaker 1: here to pick pumpkins and bring them down and sell them.

2034
02:00:15,160 --> 02:00:18,920
Speaker 1: But he had a pine tree plant to Christmas tree plantation. Yeah,

2035
02:00:19,320 --> 02:00:22,760
Speaker 1: and always good whether they were in there or not. Yeah,

2036
02:00:22,840 --> 02:00:24,360
Speaker 1: And it was just that like I think of them

2037
02:00:24,360 --> 02:00:28,200
Speaker 1: in there like it's where they go to survive the cold. Yeah, totally.

2038
02:00:28,240 --> 02:00:30,160
Speaker 1: So so I love that. And one of the things.

2039
02:00:30,160 --> 02:00:32,880
Speaker 3: When I'm looking for grouse, like really good grouse habitat,

2040
02:00:33,480 --> 02:00:38,280
Speaker 3: having a component of conifer in the mix is awesome.

2041
02:00:38,480 --> 02:00:43,200
Speaker 3: You know, it might be spruce or fur, but in

2042
02:00:43,320 --> 02:00:46,960
Speaker 3: terms of shelter from predators and also in terms of

2043
02:00:47,520 --> 02:00:52,640
Speaker 3: thermal protection and hiding from pre sip too, like they

2044
02:00:52,640 --> 02:00:53,560
Speaker 3: do not like getting.

2045
02:00:53,360 --> 02:00:57,160
Speaker 2: Oh man, they can disappear in those those trees, those conifers.

2046
02:00:57,520 --> 02:00:59,760
Speaker 2: Get a kid trying to find one that's perched up.

2047
02:01:00,200 --> 02:01:02,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because they're not sitting way out. They'll sit

2048
02:01:02,760 --> 02:01:03,920
Speaker 1: up closer towards the thing.

2049
02:01:04,560 --> 02:01:06,280
Speaker 3: So that's where you get, like if you're in a

2050
02:01:06,320 --> 02:01:10,480
Speaker 3: hunting scenario taking turns, flanking like Kevin one dude on

2051
02:01:10,560 --> 02:01:11,360
Speaker 3: the back side.

2052
02:01:11,680 --> 02:01:13,240
Speaker 2: Sometimes they just don't budge.

2053
02:01:13,320 --> 02:01:16,320
Speaker 1: Man, that's true. And oftentimes you know you're here, you'll

2054
02:01:16,360 --> 02:01:19,000
Speaker 1: hear him flushing. You'll never see him. But dude, the

2055
02:01:19,040 --> 02:01:21,600
Speaker 1: guys when you're hitting those patches, I'm talking about, the

2056
02:01:21,640 --> 02:01:23,200
Speaker 1: dudes that are going to get the shooting are the

2057
02:01:23,280 --> 02:01:27,840
Speaker 1: dudes on the outside, right, That's what I'm saying. Fank

2058
02:01:27,960 --> 02:01:30,000
Speaker 1: and you and you want to kind of go like

2059
02:01:30,040 --> 02:01:33,720
Speaker 1: if you picture a Christmas tree plantation like a lap

2060
02:01:33,720 --> 02:01:37,200
Speaker 1: picture laptop computer. Okay, okay, and you got your pushers

2061
02:01:37,280 --> 02:01:40,640
Speaker 1: and you're pushing it the long way. Yep. A lot

2062
02:01:40,680 --> 02:01:42,280
Speaker 1: of guys are going to make the mistake of having

2063
02:01:42,320 --> 02:01:46,000
Speaker 1: their pushers out Like you're entering one end of the laptop. Yeah,

2064
02:01:46,440 --> 02:01:49,800
Speaker 1: your pushers are, and you've got your sitters. Yeah, you're

2065
02:01:49,800 --> 02:01:52,120
Speaker 1: thinking you're going to position them off the points off

2066
02:01:52,160 --> 02:01:53,200
Speaker 1: the other end of the lap.

2067
02:01:53,240 --> 02:01:55,680
Speaker 3: Strategy, man, that's a good trick is to have a

2068
02:01:55,680 --> 02:01:56,800
Speaker 3: guy mid laptop.

2069
02:01:57,040 --> 02:02:02,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, the one because a conceptualized in that pine tree

2070
02:02:02,000 --> 02:02:04,520
Speaker 1: pass the way you are. But you think he's gonna

2071
02:02:04,520 --> 02:02:07,360
Speaker 1: go to the end right and then hop out right,

2072
02:02:07,600 --> 02:02:10,360
Speaker 1: you know, but they're blowing outsides and you have a gun.

2073
02:02:10,560 --> 02:02:12,960
Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying. Flank Like you'll never hear me

2074
02:02:12,960 --> 02:02:15,640
Speaker 3: talk about a standard. A flanker is somebody mobile.

2075
02:02:15,800 --> 02:02:16,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's movement.

2076
02:02:16,640 --> 02:02:19,400
Speaker 3: They're flanking and maybe a few steps up ahead.

2077
02:02:19,160 --> 02:02:21,520
Speaker 1: And he's recognizing those gaps in the trees that he

2078
02:02:21,600 --> 02:02:23,560
Speaker 1: knows they're going to use to get out of there. Man.

2079
02:02:23,640 --> 02:02:25,080
Speaker 3: The other thing that's nice is then you can be

2080
02:02:25,160 --> 02:02:27,080
Speaker 3: within eyesight of each other too, so you can take

2081
02:02:27,120 --> 02:02:29,560
Speaker 3: your shot knowing where your buddy is. Yeah, right, Because

2082
02:02:29,560 --> 02:02:31,400
Speaker 3: a lot of times in grouse habitat, like you can

2083
02:02:31,840 --> 02:02:33,880
Speaker 3: if you're more than like thirty yards from your friend,

2084
02:02:33,920 --> 02:02:34,960
Speaker 3: you're not gonna be able to see him.

2085
02:02:35,040 --> 02:02:38,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, Carl, I had one more question for it. It's like,

2086
02:02:39,520 --> 02:02:41,880
Speaker 2: I'm surprised it didn't come up because it like it

2087
02:02:42,000 --> 02:02:44,480
Speaker 2: usually comes up in these kind of conversations, which is

2088
02:02:44,520 --> 02:02:48,680
Speaker 2: like predators and predator management, Like does it matter on

2089
02:02:48,760 --> 02:02:52,440
Speaker 2: grouse because I know a lot of grouse hunters be

2090
02:02:52,480 --> 02:02:56,000
Speaker 2: like raccoons are eating or whatever. I don't know, like I.

2091
02:02:55,960 --> 02:03:00,280
Speaker 1: Feel like, but there's something there with turkeys. But anyways, yeah, man,

2092
02:03:00,560 --> 02:03:02,160
Speaker 1: so who's killing.

2093
02:03:01,960 --> 02:03:05,640
Speaker 2: Every nobody anymore? That's part of why you.

2094
02:03:05,600 --> 02:03:08,320
Speaker 3: Know, Yeah, everybody's killing them, man, Like grouse and woodcock

2095
02:03:08,440 --> 02:03:15,080
Speaker 3: are delicious. Uh, they are little nuggets of energy on

2096
02:03:15,160 --> 02:03:17,600
Speaker 3: the landscape waiting to get eaten. And the nests too,

2097
02:03:18,160 --> 02:03:19,840
Speaker 3: and these systems are full of things that are going

2098
02:03:19,840 --> 02:03:21,920
Speaker 3: to eat them. And that's okay.

2099
02:03:22,640 --> 02:03:22,760
Speaker 4: Uh.

2100
02:03:23,480 --> 02:03:27,440
Speaker 3: The lever that matters is the habitat to be thinking about, like, oh,

2101
02:03:27,480 --> 02:03:29,360
Speaker 3: if I kill all the coyotes, kill all the fox

2102
02:03:29,480 --> 02:03:30,879
Speaker 3: or these possums getting nests.

2103
02:03:30,760 --> 02:03:35,400
Speaker 1: Or whatever, that is like that is not going to

2104
02:03:35,480 --> 02:03:38,360
Speaker 1: move the lever and people stay focused. I want people

2105
02:03:38,400 --> 02:03:42,320
Speaker 1: thinking about habitat. Man, let let all the sort itself out.

2106
02:03:42,440 --> 02:03:44,800
Speaker 1: And and and the thing is, we had a guy this,

2107
02:03:45,040 --> 02:03:47,400
Speaker 1: We had a guy in your seat came on top

2108
02:03:47,400 --> 02:03:54,640
Speaker 1: of the same conversation, Bob White Quail. He was your

2109
02:03:54,640 --> 02:03:57,840
Speaker 1: thing with habitat. He didn't do what you're doing down

2110
02:03:59,200 --> 02:04:03,600
Speaker 1: and he was like parasites, parasites, parasites, parasites. And man,

2111
02:04:06,800 --> 02:04:13,320
Speaker 1: we got just more negative feedback and pissed off people. Yeah,

2112
02:04:13,440 --> 02:04:20,080
Speaker 1: because he jumped to h he had the addacity to

2113
02:04:20,200 --> 02:04:20,880
Speaker 1: talk about.

2114
02:04:21,160 --> 02:04:22,760
Speaker 2: He also had a product he.

2115
02:04:22,840 --> 02:04:26,640
Speaker 1: Was that he worked on. Yes, yes, let me throw

2116
02:04:26,640 --> 02:04:30,600
Speaker 1: a couple of things in what I'm saying. He shifted

2117
02:04:30,760 --> 02:04:34,000
Speaker 1: and people were like, you gotta stay on the habitat.

2118
02:04:34,160 --> 02:04:37,480
Speaker 1: You can't talk about right, And people were pissed. They

2119
02:04:37,480 --> 02:04:38,920
Speaker 1: should be. Here's the thing.

2120
02:04:39,520 --> 02:04:42,600
Speaker 3: Here's the thing, man, let's talk about parasite loads not

2121
02:04:42,720 --> 02:04:46,440
Speaker 3: unlike the conversation around West Nile. A lot of these

2122
02:04:46,440 --> 02:04:52,920
Speaker 3: birds are gonna pick up all sorts of maladies, diseases, parasites,

2123
02:04:52,920 --> 02:04:59,080
Speaker 3: et cetera. Having quality habitat is going to mediate those effects.

2124
02:04:59,600 --> 02:05:02,760
Speaker 3: It's like the thing to do. And since you brought

2125
02:05:02,840 --> 02:05:08,000
Speaker 3: up Quail, I want to just briefly point out the

2126
02:05:08,080 --> 02:05:10,760
Speaker 3: fact that we spend a lot of time talking about

2127
02:05:10,760 --> 02:05:13,520
Speaker 3: eastern forests, and again I'm looking at the State of

2128
02:05:13,520 --> 02:05:19,040
Speaker 3: the Birds report in terms of declines Eastern bird Eastern

2129
02:05:19,080 --> 02:05:24,400
Speaker 3: forest birds twenty seven percent decline over the course of

2130
02:05:24,440 --> 02:05:29,280
Speaker 3: the last forty years. Looking at this graph from this

2131
02:05:29,320 --> 02:05:34,680
Speaker 3: report that there are two categories that have steeper declines

2132
02:05:35,240 --> 02:05:38,280
Speaker 3: that I want to highlight arid land birds and grassland birds.

2133
02:05:38,960 --> 02:05:41,880
Speaker 3: So grassland birds in particular, and I want to tie

2134
02:05:41,880 --> 02:05:47,560
Speaker 3: this back to the conversation about quail. We have talked

2135
02:05:47,560 --> 02:05:51,200
Speaker 3: today about the importance of markets and being able to

2136
02:05:51,240 --> 02:05:54,000
Speaker 3: move wood and not being able to move habitat without

2137
02:05:54,000 --> 02:05:56,680
Speaker 3: being able to move wood. One of the challenges with

2138
02:05:56,720 --> 02:06:02,320
Speaker 3: grassland ecosystems is figuring out how those ecosystems can pay

2139
02:06:02,320 --> 02:06:04,240
Speaker 3: their way right This is where the Farm Bill and

2140
02:06:04,280 --> 02:06:10,920
Speaker 3: programs like CRP incentivizing stewardship, and there's.

2141
02:06:10,840 --> 02:06:13,640
Speaker 1: Which isn't paying their way in the same way right now,

2142
02:06:14,680 --> 02:06:16,280
Speaker 1: and those are long term invest.

2143
02:06:16,080 --> 02:06:19,280
Speaker 3: Long term investments, and there's there's just some amazing success

2144
02:06:19,320 --> 02:06:24,880
Speaker 3: stories of ranchers taking a long view on habitat and

2145
02:06:24,920 --> 02:06:29,800
Speaker 3: trying to you know, trying to do right by grassland

2146
02:06:29,800 --> 02:06:34,280
Speaker 3: birds and also right by their herds and their bottom line.

2147
02:06:34,440 --> 02:06:36,720
Speaker 3: And it's it's harder in a system where you don't

2148
02:06:36,720 --> 02:06:41,320
Speaker 3: have the timber helping with those economics. But I want

2149
02:06:41,360 --> 02:06:47,120
Speaker 3: to just highlight, you know, folks have opportunities to be

2150
02:06:47,520 --> 02:06:50,760
Speaker 3: really involved with moving the needle. And I'm thinking back

2151
02:06:50,800 --> 02:06:54,720
Speaker 3: to last week being at pheasant Fest. You mentioned quail

2152
02:06:55,000 --> 02:06:58,440
Speaker 3: decline and quail in a lot of places in most

2153
02:06:58,440 --> 02:07:01,200
Speaker 3: places continue to struggle, and in fact, that's one of

2154
02:07:01,200 --> 02:07:04,000
Speaker 3: the reasons woodcock aer getting more attention is people who

2155
02:07:04,040 --> 02:07:07,960
Speaker 3: have historically loved hunting quail and have pointing dogs and

2156
02:07:07,960 --> 02:07:10,520
Speaker 3: all that, they're like discovering woodcock as an alternative in

2157
02:07:10,560 --> 02:07:13,920
Speaker 3: some places where quail, like in the quail Stronghold. But

2158
02:07:13,960 --> 02:07:17,680
Speaker 3: I just want to highlight the experience of last week

2159
02:07:17,840 --> 02:07:20,560
Speaker 3: being up in Minneapolis at pheasant Fest, so hosted by

2160
02:07:20,680 --> 02:07:24,920
Speaker 3: Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever, another organization that's really dialed

2161
02:07:24,960 --> 02:07:28,240
Speaker 3: in on this habitat piece in a different system right

2162
02:07:28,320 --> 02:07:35,640
Speaker 3: thinking about these grassland systems, and I'm a big proponent

2163
02:07:35,880 --> 02:07:40,880
Speaker 3: for folks to think about being affiliated with lots of

2164
02:07:40,880 --> 02:07:44,560
Speaker 3: different organizations and finding ways to support the missions of

2165
02:07:44,600 --> 02:07:47,879
Speaker 3: lots of different organizations, and I couldn't be more impressed

2166
02:07:47,920 --> 02:07:52,120
Speaker 3: with how Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever rolled out a

2167
02:07:52,160 --> 02:07:55,560
Speaker 3: red carpet for our organization and a whole host of

2168
02:07:55,560 --> 02:07:58,839
Speaker 3: other like prairie grouse organizations. We had this little corner,

2169
02:07:59,200 --> 02:08:01,400
Speaker 3: not a little corner. We had a great space at

2170
02:08:01,440 --> 02:08:04,600
Speaker 3: the at Pheasant Fest to talk about grouse conservation, both

2171
02:08:04,640 --> 02:08:09,280
Speaker 3: forest grouse and prairie grouse. And the thing I love

2172
02:08:09,320 --> 02:08:13,800
Speaker 3: about what Pheasants Forever is doing is taking this stance.

2173
02:08:13,880 --> 02:08:15,800
Speaker 3: Like I think it'd be really easy for folks to

2174
02:08:15,840 --> 02:08:19,440
Speaker 3: imagine there being a lot of competition among conservation organizations.

2175
02:08:19,680 --> 02:08:21,040
Speaker 1: It does not have to be that way. Man.

2176
02:08:21,080 --> 02:08:24,000
Speaker 3: There's so much work that needs to be done across

2177
02:08:24,040 --> 02:08:28,280
Speaker 3: these different ecosystems. We've got a niche with thinking about

2178
02:08:28,280 --> 02:08:30,920
Speaker 3: forest grouse, thinking about woodcock. But I've already told you

2179
02:08:30,960 --> 02:08:34,560
Speaker 3: like there are other nonprofits, American Bird Conservancy, Audubon Society,

2180
02:08:34,560 --> 02:08:38,600
Speaker 3: tnc there's so much work that needs to be done

2181
02:08:38,880 --> 02:08:42,880
Speaker 3: that from my perspective, there's no excuse for there to

2182
02:08:42,920 --> 02:08:45,760
Speaker 3: be a sense of competition among these organizations. We've got

2183
02:08:45,840 --> 02:08:49,080
Speaker 3: to be taking the tact that I saw last week

2184
02:08:49,120 --> 02:08:51,440
Speaker 3: from Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever, where they're creating a

2185
02:08:51,480 --> 02:08:54,080
Speaker 3: space to try to elevate the missions of all these

2186
02:08:54,080 --> 02:08:55,160
Speaker 3: different organizations.

2187
02:08:55,440 --> 02:08:59,360
Speaker 1: So my hope is that, well, it could be that

2188
02:08:59,400 --> 02:09:02,120
Speaker 1: it's it could be that there's a problem where the

2189
02:09:02,120 --> 02:09:09,120
Speaker 1: efforts are too scattered and not streamlined. Well, that's there.

2190
02:09:09,160 --> 02:09:11,160
Speaker 3: There is a risk there, and that's where I think

2191
02:09:11,200 --> 02:09:16,800
Speaker 3: having some strong alignment among collaborators and keeping your eye

2192
02:09:17,120 --> 02:09:21,800
Speaker 3: on the prize and finding ways to leverage the strengths

2193
02:09:22,160 --> 02:09:26,920
Speaker 3: and expertise of different partner organizations. I mentioned Rocky mountin

2194
02:09:26,960 --> 02:09:29,880
Speaker 3: Olk Foundation earlier, another group where you know they've got

2195
02:09:29,880 --> 02:09:31,560
Speaker 3: a strong presence in the West, they want to be

2196
02:09:31,560 --> 02:09:34,080
Speaker 3: able to implement work in the east. We can help

2197
02:09:34,120 --> 02:09:36,840
Speaker 3: them do that, so we're able to funnel some of

2198
02:09:36,880 --> 02:09:39,440
Speaker 3: their conservation investments through our organization.

2199
02:09:40,720 --> 02:09:44,360
Speaker 1: So I just I hope as folks.

2200
02:09:44,080 --> 02:09:51,120
Speaker 3: Are thinking about all of the needs, taking some time

2201
02:09:51,240 --> 02:09:54,840
Speaker 3: to learn about the bigger picture and not just not

2202
02:09:54,920 --> 02:09:58,480
Speaker 3: just focus on one ecosystem or one species, but think

2203
02:09:58,480 --> 02:10:02,120
Speaker 3: about these big concepts of what these landscapes need from us,

2204
02:10:02,200 --> 02:10:05,360
Speaker 3: and then finding ways to align and become a member

2205
02:10:05,360 --> 02:10:07,800
Speaker 3: of communities with organizations that are trying.

2206
02:10:07,640 --> 02:10:08,160
Speaker 1: To drive that.

2207
02:10:08,360 --> 02:10:10,760
Speaker 3: And I want to throw one other thing out that

2208
02:10:10,840 --> 02:10:15,760
Speaker 3: I'm really excited about right now in terms of collaboration,

2209
02:10:16,120 --> 02:10:19,920
Speaker 3: and that is when we were at pheasant Fest, one

2210
02:10:19,920 --> 02:10:23,360
Speaker 3: of the coolest things happen in there was we had

2211
02:10:23,720 --> 02:10:26,880
Speaker 3: a partnership with the all the Leopold Foundation at pheasant Fest.

2212
02:10:27,520 --> 02:10:32,320
Speaker 3: So anybody who was joining RGS and AWS as a

2213
02:10:32,320 --> 02:10:34,920
Speaker 3: conservation member, they were all getting copies of Sand County

2214
02:10:34,920 --> 02:10:43,280
Speaker 3: Almanac through the Leopold Foundation. And I think that's a

2215
02:10:43,320 --> 02:10:48,680
Speaker 3: significant collaboration because what we are, what we are doing

2216
02:10:48,680 --> 02:10:51,280
Speaker 3: with our work, and what I've been trying to communicate

2217
02:10:51,320 --> 02:10:56,560
Speaker 3: through the conversation today is that the significance of this

2218
02:10:56,640 --> 02:10:59,560
Speaker 3: effort is much It's about much more than just having

2219
02:10:59,600 --> 02:11:02,080
Speaker 3: really good grouse and woodcock hunting, right we're asked, we're

2220
02:11:02,080 --> 02:11:05,920
Speaker 3: trying to approach these big questions around responsibility to place

2221
02:11:06,120 --> 02:11:10,520
Speaker 3: and thinking about showing up in community in a meaningful way.

2222
02:11:10,640 --> 02:11:14,080
Speaker 3: And for anybody who's familiar with Leopold's work, those should

2223
02:11:14,120 --> 02:11:19,560
Speaker 3: sound like familiar concepts, and so this idea of highlighting

2224
02:11:20,480 --> 02:11:22,720
Speaker 3: those ideas and that legacy through the work that we're

2225
02:11:22,720 --> 02:11:26,160
Speaker 3: doing and trying to be exemplary ambassadors of that land

2226
02:11:26,200 --> 02:11:29,280
Speaker 3: ethic and action is something I'm really excited about. So

2227
02:11:29,560 --> 02:11:33,200
Speaker 3: just in the last week, we've gotten a h further

2228
02:11:33,280 --> 02:11:37,440
Speaker 3: commitment from the Elder Leopold Foundation for anyone who joins

2229
02:11:37,760 --> 02:11:42,440
Speaker 3: our organization in our membership drive right now, that deal

2230
02:11:42,920 --> 02:11:45,760
Speaker 3: is going to continue online.

2231
02:11:46,040 --> 02:11:46,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2232
02:11:46,400 --> 02:11:49,920
Speaker 3: So yeah, so if you go, we've got to We've

2233
02:11:49,920 --> 02:11:51,840
Speaker 3: got a slick little u r L now to use,

2234
02:11:51,880 --> 02:11:55,800
Speaker 3: which is ruffed dot org and make sure you spell ruffed.

2235
02:11:56,360 --> 02:12:00,560
Speaker 3: Are you f f ed rough dot org? And you'll

2236
02:12:00,560 --> 02:12:03,440
Speaker 3: get that's your guys website now it's this is this

2237
02:12:03,480 --> 02:12:05,400
Speaker 3: is a tight little u ur L that will take

2238
02:12:05,440 --> 02:12:08,840
Speaker 3: you to our rough do It'll take you to our

2239
02:12:08,920 --> 02:12:11,520
Speaker 3: membership campaign right now, not rough like roughed yep, but

2240
02:12:11,680 --> 02:12:15,240
Speaker 3: rough right you are you are you f f ed

2241
02:12:15,760 --> 02:12:18,520
Speaker 3: dot org? And get a copy of a sand County

2242
02:12:18,560 --> 02:12:22,720
Speaker 3: Almanac and get yourself a cool trucker hat with the

2243
02:12:22,760 --> 02:12:26,160
Speaker 3: grouse and a woodcock on it, and uh, get newsletters

2244
02:12:26,160 --> 02:12:29,840
Speaker 3: from both the Leopold Foundation and the Rough Grouse Society

2245
02:12:29,880 --> 02:12:34,800
Speaker 3: in American Woodcock Society and and the thing I want

2246
02:12:34,800 --> 02:12:38,520
Speaker 3: to highlight here, like memberships are great, but we're really

2247
02:12:38,520 --> 02:12:40,880
Speaker 3: trying to figure out is building this idea of building

2248
02:12:40,920 --> 02:12:45,800
Speaker 3: community around taking care of the land. That's what we're about,

2249
02:12:46,120 --> 02:12:49,640
Speaker 3: taking care of these forests, and we do that with memberships.

2250
02:12:49,680 --> 02:12:51,560
Speaker 3: We also have people who are volunteering, and I want

2251
02:12:51,560 --> 02:12:53,000
Speaker 3: to I want to say a huge thank you to

2252
02:12:53,040 --> 02:12:57,320
Speaker 3: everybody who volunteers to support our mission. We have tremendous

2253
02:12:57,320 --> 02:12:59,360
Speaker 3: We have folks who have been volunteering for this organization

2254
02:12:59,440 --> 02:13:03,400
Speaker 3: for decades, hosting banquets, fundraisers, all that kind of stuff,

2255
02:13:03,480 --> 02:13:05,720
Speaker 3: just pouring a ton of time and passion. We had

2256
02:13:05,800 --> 02:13:07,960
Speaker 3: volunteers at pheasant Fest helping staff our booth. So I

2257
02:13:08,000 --> 02:13:10,720
Speaker 3: want to say a huge thank you to the volunteers

2258
02:13:10,720 --> 02:13:13,640
Speaker 3: who are part of this organization. We have some incredibly

2259
02:13:13,720 --> 02:13:20,080
Speaker 3: generous private philanthropists who support our mission. But this idea

2260
02:13:20,120 --> 02:13:23,960
Speaker 3: of just having a community of people who are affiliated

2261
02:13:24,000 --> 02:13:25,920
Speaker 3: with the work that we do and want to see

2262
02:13:26,480 --> 02:13:28,960
Speaker 3: these forests left in a better condition than we found them,

2263
02:13:29,480 --> 02:13:31,560
Speaker 3: that's what we're trying to build. And I think in

2264
02:13:31,600 --> 02:13:34,400
Speaker 3: the conservation space, with some of the trends that we've

2265
02:13:34,400 --> 02:13:37,320
Speaker 3: talked about around declining participation, like what is the future

2266
02:13:38,360 --> 02:13:42,320
Speaker 3: of the funding model for conservation in this country, these

2267
02:13:42,400 --> 02:13:45,200
Speaker 3: questions about how do we build community around these ideas

2268
02:13:45,200 --> 02:13:47,880
Speaker 3: of responsibility to place. I think that is where the

2269
02:13:47,920 --> 02:13:50,080
Speaker 3: answer lies, and so we want to be one of

2270
02:13:50,120 --> 02:13:53,840
Speaker 3: the leaders along with our partners, in helping drive that

2271
02:13:53,920 --> 02:13:56,840
Speaker 3: kind of community building. So rough dot org check it out,

2272
02:13:56,920 --> 02:13:57,320
Speaker 3: join us.

2273
02:13:57,560 --> 02:14:01,720
Speaker 1: Thank you, Carl, Thanks Kyle, and again this is Carl Malcolm.

2274
02:14:01,760 --> 02:14:07,000
Speaker 1: He's the VP of Conservation with the Roffed Grouse Society

2275
02:14:07,160 --> 02:14:11,640
Speaker 1: and the American Woodcock Society. Thanks so much for coming

2276
02:14:11,640 --> 02:14:14,440
Speaker 1: on man, and please go check out so easy. Remember

2277
02:14:14,600 --> 02:14:18,600
Speaker 1: Ruffed are you f feed dot org Get yourself a

2278
02:14:18,680 --> 02:14:24,080
Speaker 1: membership Rough Grouse Society in the American Woodcock Society. Get

2279
02:14:24,120 --> 02:14:28,400
Speaker 1: perhaps the greatest, not even perhaps the greatest conservation book

2280
02:14:28,440 --> 02:14:31,400
Speaker 1: ever written. I won't to argue with that the greatest

2281
02:14:31,400 --> 02:14:36,320
Speaker 1: conservation book ever written San Connie Almanac, but Aldo Leopold

2282
02:14:36,960 --> 02:14:40,520
Speaker 1: and Carl doubles as a Leopold expert for you guys

2283
02:14:40,520 --> 02:14:43,280
Speaker 1: that you guys know that if you watch Me Eater

2284
02:14:43,360 --> 02:14:46,440
Speaker 1: the TV show and have listened to Carl's past appearances

2285
02:14:46,480 --> 02:14:48,400
Speaker 1: on this podcast. Again, thank you, Carl.

2286
02:14:49,000 --> 02:14:50,640
Speaker 3: Appreciate the opportunity, Steve get to see it.