Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to What Goes Up, a Bloomberg Weekly
Speaker 1: Markets podcast. I'm Sarah Ponzach, a reporter on the Cross
Speaker 1: Asset team, and I'm Joel Weber, the editor of Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Business Week, filling in for Mike Reagan and maybe trying
Speaker 1: out first job. It's great to have you here. Mike
Speaker 1: feels a bit threatened at the moment that Mike's off
Speaker 1: for the week. But this week on the show, we're
Speaker 1: going to do something a little bit different. Think of
Speaker 1: it as a special edition podcast in honor of a
Speaker 1: special edition Business Week magazine issue. This year marks the
Speaker 1: one hundred and fiftie anniversary of the periodic Table of Elements,
Speaker 1: and the team we have joining today set out to
Speaker 1: make the case for why it matters more than ever.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about the elements, commodities across the spectrum, and
Speaker 1: mine for hence regarding where we are in the economic cycle.
Speaker 1: To the nerds, this when literally goes out to all
Speaker 1: the nerds in the world. Um, we got really carried
Speaker 1: away with this idea early in the year and we
Speaker 1: decided that we wanted to go full nerd give it
Speaker 1: one whole double issue. So it is a cover to
Speaker 1: cover special issue. There's content for all eighteen elements in
Speaker 1: the issue. The Nerds appreciate it, the Nerds rejoice, and
Speaker 1: as always, will close out the episode with our tradition
Speaker 1: the craziest thing I ever saw in markets this week.
Speaker 1: But we're also going to do that with the twist.
Speaker 1: But Joel, I think we should leave the listeners hanging
Speaker 1: for now. Okay, but as always, remember we do have
Speaker 1: our very own podcast hotline. That number is six four
Speaker 1: six three to four three four nine zero. Feel free
Speaker 1: to give us a call, ask us any questions, leave
Speaker 1: us a message letting us know the craziest things that
Speaker 1: you guys have seen in markets, and if you're lucky enough,
Speaker 1: we might even play your message on the podcast. I
Speaker 1: can see Joel right here, who has his very own
Speaker 1: podcast Trillions about et s. Eric Baltunas is pretty jealous.
Speaker 1: I'm definitely jealous that you guys have a hotline. I
Speaker 1: also will say if anyone has amazing stories from chemistry
Speaker 1: class in high school that relates to the periodic table,
Speaker 1: I want to know about the stuff that went down
Speaker 1: in any chemistry class. But without further ado, I would
Speaker 1: love to introduce our great guests this week. First we
Speaker 1: have Bloomberg Business Weeks Jeremy Keane, who was really the
Speaker 1: architect behind this whole issue. That's right. Sorry, I think
Speaker 1: you could call me the chief nerd, if the chief
Speaker 1: nerd chief nerd, and I definitely call you chief nerd.
Speaker 1: Joel has described you as a walking talking person the
Speaker 1: periodic table full table. I did, yeah, no, I you know,
Speaker 1: pick a number and I will have a story QUI
Speaker 1: don't worry. Don't worry, we have a quiz in the
Speaker 1: off thing. But also joining us over in London actually
Speaker 1: is Eddie Vanderwalt of the Markets Live blog, who also
Speaker 1: helped out with issues. So Eddie, thanks for joining us. Okay,
Speaker 1: hi guys, thank you very much for having me on.
Speaker 1: Joel I figured it. I'll just start with you, even
Speaker 1: though you are doubling as co host this week. Why
Speaker 1: did you guys actually decide to dedicate not just one
Speaker 1: single issue, but a double issue special edition of Business
Speaker 1: Week to the periodic Table of elements. So one of
Speaker 1: the things we try to do business Week is take something,
Speaker 1: um that seems like I forgot about it. It It was
Speaker 1: in chemistry class, and you can kind of revisit things
Speaker 1: like that. And we try and do that through the
Speaker 1: lens of business. And one of the things that we
Speaker 1: know about when you work at Bloomberg is that you know,
Speaker 1: we were just obsessed with markets. Commodities are a huge market,
Speaker 1: and when you actually think about the periodic table of elements,
Speaker 1: not with a chemistry class in mind, but a business one, effectively,
Speaker 1: we were talking about commodities. So we felt it was
Speaker 1: a very creative way to take something that we don't
Speaker 1: often talk about in Business Week, commodities, and actually basically
Speaker 1: go full Nerd on it. And in doing that we
Speaker 1: were able to like bring stories to life that I
Speaker 1: don't think Business Week usually would touch. And I think
Speaker 1: the magic of that was really came from Jeremy, who
Speaker 1: leaned into the table, like I said, full table, and
Speaker 1: then managed to find people and stories that make you
Speaker 1: just reappreciate what it means to be a business story
Speaker 1: and a business magazine or a business journalist for that matter.
Speaker 1: I will be the first to admit, especially on this show,
Speaker 1: we typically talk about stocks, we talk about rates, we
Speaker 1: talk about FX. When we do talk about commodities, we
Speaker 1: usually talk about oil or something of that matter. So
Speaker 1: something that really stood out to me in the issue
Speaker 1: was one section on elements that go boom and bust
Speaker 1: and this really looks speaking um, But this is really
Speaker 1: about metals, and it's an area that we don't typically
Speaker 1: talk too much about. So Eddie, why don't you walk
Speaker 1: me through the different metals that you guys looked at,
Speaker 1: And is it true that these typically don't follow the
Speaker 1: same economic cycles as you might imagine for the likes
Speaker 1: of gold or silver that are seen as safe havens. Right,
Speaker 1: it's actually really interesting. We we looked at it. We
Speaker 1: looked at a handful of specific examples, but but this
Speaker 1: is really the story of most commodities as they come
Speaker 1: and go in and out of fashion. Because you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's really interesting when you look at the periodic
Speaker 1: table and you look at you look at the whole
Speaker 1: world around us, the vast quantity of materials and and
Speaker 1: and objects that we use day today. There's only you know,
Speaker 1: a hundred odd elements out of which all of this
Speaker 1: is made, and every once in a while, a new
Speaker 1: use is discovered for for a given element. We looked
Speaker 1: at palladium, platinum, rhodium, irridium. These are metals that are
Speaker 1: used in small quantities by really big industries. You know,
Speaker 1: suddenly one day somebody realizes this stuff is useful for
Speaker 1: something they've never thought of before. And the first thing
Speaker 1: that happens usually when when that's the case, is people think, wow,
Speaker 1: we haven't got enough of this stuff. The world only
Speaker 1: produces seven tons, and suddenly it goes into a mobile
Speaker 1: phone and we need you know, now we're gonna need
Speaker 1: hundreds of tons. So the price shoots up. Then you
Speaker 1: see you see this massive reaction. We we've got rhodium,
Speaker 1: which I think has had a you know, something like
Speaker 1: a six rally in the last couple of years because
Speaker 1: it's used in the in the exhaust pipes of of
Speaker 1: of cars, and as we want our cars to be cleaner,
Speaker 1: they use more and more rhodium, is the is the theory.
Speaker 1: Then as the price goes up, then immediately people go
Speaker 1: out and they're like, wow, we've got to you know,
Speaker 1: we used to throw this stuff away, but now we've
Speaker 1: we've got to go out and explore and find more
Speaker 1: of the stuff. And then you see the price very
Speaker 1: quickly collapse because it's gone up. So you see these
Speaker 1: kind of massive spikes in commodities in all of the
Speaker 1: elements from time to time. But these ones, particularly because
Speaker 1: they are used by large industries which aren't gonna, you know,
Speaker 1: use less of it. People are going to buy cars
Speaker 1: they use a tiny amount of palladium in the exhaust pipe.
Speaker 1: Even if the price of the palladium goes up, they're
Speaker 1: not going to buy less cars. So you you get
Speaker 1: these spectacular cycles. But you see this repeating year in
Speaker 1: year out, and then you get people who just kind
Speaker 1: of specialize in in spotting those trends early and going
Speaker 1: out there and and getting ahead of the curve. So, Eddie,
Speaker 1: what are some of the magic qualities that these particular
Speaker 1: metals have. So your platinus vir palladiums, they they're part
Speaker 1: of the platinum group metals. They are precious metals. So
Speaker 1: they are precious because they they they are noble metals.
Speaker 1: They don't they don't rust and so on. What you
Speaker 1: tend to see with them is with the platinum group
Speaker 1: metals in particular, which include the iridium and rhodium and
Speaker 1: a few others, they are useful as catalysts. So what
Speaker 1: we use them for is in the exhaust of a car.
Speaker 1: We would we would normally admit toxic gases, but What
Speaker 1: happens if you if you code part of your exhaust
Speaker 1: with platinum or with palladium, is you can transform that
Speaker 1: gas into a into another gas in a really quick way,
Speaker 1: just you know, purely as it passes through this catalytic converter,
Speaker 1: and you end up with instead of carbon monoxide and
Speaker 1: Knox gases, you end up with carbon dioxide, which is
Speaker 1: which is still harmful, but not not as toxic warm
Speaker 1: in the world. You know, at least you're not maybe
Speaker 1: killing people. You know, you're not getting giving people asthma
Speaker 1: and so on. And they used in slightly different ways,
Speaker 1: and as the price differential between the various metal shifts
Speaker 1: will use more of one and you know less of
Speaker 1: the other. But it does, it does create fairly spectacular
Speaker 1: rellies and beautiful charts. Jeremy flash quiz, what's the atomic
Speaker 1: number for rodium? Oh no, it's I knew it was
Speaker 1: the mid forties. I couldn't pin it down. But actually,
Speaker 1: I mean, looking through all these different elements on the table,
Speaker 1: when you think about the big industries that are out
Speaker 1: there today, does anyone or do a couple stand out
Speaker 1: as you as really being heavily in demand for the
Speaker 1: industries of today or the industries of tomorrow, and the
Speaker 1: elements themselves. Well, um, you know, certainly silicon remains awfully
Speaker 1: popular for reason. And see you would expect computer chips
Speaker 1: and and uh and they're um, you know, gold is
Speaker 1: also not only used in jewelry, but it's important. It's
Speaker 1: a component in phones. Um. You know, we talked about
Speaker 1: how for the Tokyo Olympics that are coming up next year.
Speaker 1: The story had no idea. Yeah, they're they're they're making
Speaker 1: the gold medals, silver medals, bronze medals out of materials
Speaker 1: recovered from phones. And part of the part of that
Speaker 1: is because the Japanese just have a culture of actually
Speaker 1: recycling stuff and trying to have second life for things.
Speaker 1: And so this was a huge government backed rally to
Speaker 1: basically be like bring out your your old phones. Unbelievable,
Speaker 1: and they scavenged metal from it. Right, Yeah, is awareness
Speaker 1: and get to your metals. It's also revealed a little
Speaker 1: secret about the gold medal itself, which is that it's
Speaker 1: not actually like fully made of gold. It's like the
Speaker 1: most minimal amount of gold possible. It's nine or something
Speaker 1: and the rest is silver. Gold medal is mostly silver.
Speaker 1: W Eddie, I want to come back to you just
Speaker 1: because I have to bring it back to markets in
Speaker 1: a sense. I mean, this past week we did get
Speaker 1: I s M manufacturing numbers in the US showing contraction
Speaker 1: for the first time since And one quality of the
Speaker 1: markets that we have been seeing lately is this unbelievable
Speaker 1: rally in gold and in silver. I mean, when you
Speaker 1: look at these medals right now that many market participants
Speaker 1: do very much pay attention to. What are they telling
Speaker 1: you about investor sentiment or the economic cycle. Oh, I'm
Speaker 1: so glad you asked me. That is really my home turf.
Speaker 1: Look gold. The interesting thing with gold is that it
Speaker 1: is it is useful, Bob. We use a little bit
Speaker 1: of industry. A little bit goes into your mobile phone,
Speaker 1: a little bit goes into your air bag in your car.
Speaker 1: And the reason it does is it is the best
Speaker 1: at doing what it does. But other metals can do
Speaker 1: the same thing, they just do it cheaper. But you
Speaker 1: don't want something cheap triggering your air bag in your car.
Speaker 1: You want the thing that's reliable. So in those kind
Speaker 1: of critical instances they use it. But at the right
Speaker 1: price point, we would be using gold as a conductor
Speaker 1: in almost everything, but because it's more expensive, we tend
Speaker 1: to use copper. So the fact that there's always this
Speaker 1: potential underlying demand for gold makes gold useful as an
Speaker 1: investment and a store of value because I can buy
Speaker 1: this stuff. I know, even if investment demand completely falls away,
Speaker 1: I will always be able to find a buyer if
Speaker 1: the price goes low enough. Right. But because it's so useful,
Speaker 1: that opens up the door for it to be used
Speaker 1: as this kind of squasi monetary as asset. But if
Speaker 1: you think about all of the elements in the periodic table,
Speaker 1: what they have in common is they are you know,
Speaker 1: they are real. There are in on the you know,
Speaker 1: on the planet that we live on. There's there's there's
Speaker 1: finite quantities of them. We have to you know, expend
Speaker 1: energy to get hold of them. So they are in
Speaker 1: a sense immune from inflation. When people worry about inflation,
Speaker 1: you could put some of your money in this kind
Speaker 1: of real staff. And what people are worried about right
Speaker 1: now with ultra relose monetary policy is you know that
Speaker 1: potentially so we've got we've got low interest rates and
Speaker 1: we've got high relatively high inflation. In fact, what we
Speaker 1: have is is low real rates, and that's the perfect
Speaker 1: environment for a metal like gold, for any of these
Speaker 1: elements really. But what makes gold useful, more useful than
Speaker 1: say lead to store your value in, is that gold
Speaker 1: is more expensive, it has a higher value to density.
Speaker 1: So you can store loads of money in a little
Speaker 1: bit of gold, and that's what made it useful as
Speaker 1: a monetary asset over time. At the moment, what people
Speaker 1: are worried about is they worried about low real rates
Speaker 1: and that that going forward, monetary policy is going to
Speaker 1: stay loose. And that's why you've got guys like Ray
Speaker 1: Dalio and you know, these kind of really heavyweight investors,
Speaker 1: and they are and they just they're throwing man money
Speaker 1: at it. We've seen e t f s, we've seen
Speaker 1: solid inflows like I haven't seen in a few years,
Speaker 1: and that's why prices are up. How much did you
Speaker 1: guys actually think about or talk about and look into
Speaker 1: how investors can participate in these types of markets because
Speaker 1: typically you think, okay, you have the physical commodity of
Speaker 1: futures your ETFs, or maybe you invest in a country
Speaker 1: or a global economy that could benefit I mean, what
Speaker 1: are the pathways, um? You know, in some cases. We looked,
Speaker 1: for example, at the hydrogen economy via Norway, where the
Speaker 1: country has really um kind of backed it and um
Speaker 1: there are certain companies that are involved that you know,
Speaker 1: investors could certainly invest in. We also published something about
Speaker 1: how to Guy that Eddie wrote along with a few
Speaker 1: other authors, on how commodities traders do their job, especially
Speaker 1: a certain brand of adventuresome one who will go out
Speaker 1: to minds and see how small quantities of in this case,
Speaker 1: rhenium can be extracted from a mine in Chile. So
Speaker 1: you know that was that was certainly part of it,
Speaker 1: and we kind of we you know, we profiled some
Speaker 1: smaller companies that are doing interesting things. We did a
Speaker 1: feature on Assault company in Oregon that's privately held but
Speaker 1: you know, could be an interesting play for someone. Um.
Speaker 1: We looked at cold Brew nitro cold brew coffees and
Speaker 1: how how small companies are doing that and some of
Speaker 1: the chemistry of that. We looked at a company that's
Speaker 1: doing radioisotope generation called north Star UM, which you know
Speaker 1: that that's a process that they have the only market
Speaker 1: on doing a medically necessary thing that the US government
Speaker 1: has placed a priority on. So there's all sorts of
Speaker 1: little tidbits like that, I think throughout the issue. One
Speaker 1: of my other favorite little tidbits is an element that I,
Speaker 1: frankly I had never heard of, or if I had
Speaker 1: heard of it, and chemistraateutually forgot about it, Uh, lutetium,
Speaker 1: which is an ingredient and a clock. There's an effort
Speaker 1: to try and make the world's most accurate clock. And
Speaker 1: if you, if you want to step forward a couple
Speaker 1: of steps about that, because somebody else already has in
Speaker 1: the finance world, no doubt, someone's already already there before you.
Speaker 1: You think about the implications that has for finance, where
Speaker 1: milliseconds would really really matter. And uh, one of the
Speaker 1: hedge funds that seems to have some interest in in
Speaker 1: sort of this space is Renaissance. Who's found us? But
Speaker 1: the Lutetian clock, Jeremy, what's the significance of why lutetium
Speaker 1: performs so well? There? Well? And the story is actually
Speaker 1: about essentially a race among the elements. So you know,
Speaker 1: you can't exactly place a place of future is bet
Speaker 1: on on you know which one you think will will
Speaker 1: come out in front, But um, right now that can
Speaker 1: mostly for the for the moment, they're being done out
Speaker 1: of government agencies. But as you say, there are companies
Speaker 1: with a vested interest particular ones, and the leading efforts
Speaker 1: right now are one spot lower on the table. Attribum
Speaker 1: is being done out of Colorado, and we looked at
Speaker 1: one of the competing elements being investigated out of Singapore,
Speaker 1: lutetium and but aluminum others are being used in the
Speaker 1: ideas that you can measure the vibrations of these atoms,
Speaker 1: and the way that you measure the vibrations lets you
Speaker 1: calculate things to a very precise um to nanoseconds essentially um,
Speaker 1: and that has implications for GPS, it has implications for trading,
Speaker 1: for all these other things. And the it just depends
Speaker 1: on you know, a particular atoms ability to insulate itself
Speaker 1: from distractions essentially from temperature from um. But somebody bumping
Speaker 1: a table in in the next room, Um, you bump
Speaker 1: that off, your accuracy is gone. Well, it's extremely interesting.
Speaker 1: I guess I may even call it crazy. But this
Speaker 1: time around for our craziest thing I ever saw on markets,
Speaker 1: we're all going to go around to uh pretty quick
Speaker 1: fire around on the craziest thing we actually think is
Speaker 1: on the periodic table of elements. So Joel, why don't
Speaker 1: why don't you kick us off? That was not the
Speaker 1: question that I was prepared for. But I have I
Speaker 1: have a story that actually brings me back to Eddie
Speaker 1: because Eddie and I have had this ongoing email chain
Speaker 1: for a couple of years relating to gold, which is
Speaker 1: a little hobby of Eddie's as he as he mentioned earlier.
Speaker 1: So and as you know, Sarah, you've been a guest
Speaker 1: on Trillions before. I have a little side hobby um
Speaker 1: talking about e t f s on our podcast with
Speaker 1: Eric Baltus All Trillions, Uh. In the process of learning
Speaker 1: about gold ETFs, we learned that, you know, there's a
Speaker 1: vault that basically stores the gold that is the underlying
Speaker 1: value associated with the e t F And being a
Speaker 1: journalist and when that primarily works in magazines, I always
Speaker 1: try and put a photo hat on and be like, oh,
Speaker 1: that'd be an amazing photo. I want to see golden vaults.
Speaker 1: I would go so far as to say it's impossible.
Speaker 1: So Eddie can probably attest to this, but at various
Speaker 1: moments in time, we've found vaults of gold and I've
Speaker 1: invited the people who are stewards have said gold to
Speaker 1: put a bag over my head to like, let me
Speaker 1: go in. I don't need to know where the vault is.
Speaker 1: I don't need to see the door of the vault
Speaker 1: or the combo on it. I just want to see
Speaker 1: the golden the vault. Um. It's a standing offer. If
Speaker 1: anybody has access to one of these vaults and would
Speaker 1: like to let me do that, I would love to
Speaker 1: see it. But to date I have seen no gold
Speaker 1: in said vaults. We'll see if you have any luck
Speaker 1: going forwards totally, Eddie, why don't you go next? So
Speaker 1: I've got to say, I've got to say working on
Speaker 1: this issue and then reading it when it was done
Speaker 1: was one of the funnest things I've done in absolutely years,
Speaker 1: and the reason being I thought I knew a lot
Speaker 1: about you know, metals and about commodities in general, but
Speaker 1: there's so many you know, niche metals that you that
Speaker 1: you don't hear about and so on. But my favorite
Speaker 1: by far was gallium. And the reason I chose gallium
Speaker 1: is because gallium it is a solid room temperature, but
Speaker 1: it's a quid at body temper. You know this was
Speaker 1: going to be mine too. Store. Let's see, let's see
Speaker 1: if I can top you there. Let's see, let's see
Speaker 1: what you were going to bring to the table and galleon.
Speaker 1: But it's not just that because because it changes, it
Speaker 1: fluxes if you were to pick it up. People say
Speaker 1: that in the you know, Chemists a few years back,
Speaker 1: it made cutlery from it, and they would they would
Speaker 1: use it to play tricks on one another, like I
Speaker 1: don't know, like a Gary Larson cartoon, and they make it,
Speaker 1: they make a knife for a spoon. I took this
Speaker 1: back to my to my guy Anthony Lippman, and I
Speaker 1: talked to him about this. He actually stopped by the
Speaker 1: other day and I talked about this, and he said, yeah,
Speaker 1: but you know what people think, this is how Uri Geller,
Speaker 1: you know, the magician, This is how he did He's
Speaker 1: bending spoon thing. Yeah, I feel like inside the magician's
Speaker 1: in a circle at this point. It'd be a huge
Speaker 1: commitment to magic my view. When I thought of Galllet
Speaker 1: and I feel like, it's like you're a superhero. You
Speaker 1: can hold metal on your hands and you can make
Speaker 1: it melts the me. How crazy is that? But Jeremyson's
Speaker 1: Eddie stole my thunder. Anyways, why don't you give us here? Well,
Speaker 1: I can. That actually reminds me of one that my
Speaker 1: father in law told me about nitt and all um,
Speaker 1: which is a nickel titanium blend that has shape memory,
Speaker 1: so at a certain temperature, it will reconstitute itself as
Speaker 1: say a coil um. And you know, it has very
Speaker 1: specialized uses, but it's not that widely used, partly because
Speaker 1: it's such a specialist thing to do. But it looks
Speaker 1: really cool on YouTube. But that wasn't actually the one
Speaker 1: that I was going to pick. I was gonna pick
Speaker 1: a story about naming rights, which um, you know they
Speaker 1: and that's what the element one of six Seaborgium um.
Speaker 1: It's one of the synthetic elements, which we did a
Speaker 1: big story on on how uh it's sort of became
Speaker 1: inefficient to smash atoms together to create synthetic elements. But
Speaker 1: there was a period in time when it was really
Speaker 1: important to national pride during the Cold War. There was
Speaker 1: a U S Lab at Berkeley led by Glenn Seaborg,
Speaker 1: after whom this element is named, and they got really
Speaker 1: good at it. They invented or they discovered more of
Speaker 1: the new elements that have been added over the last
Speaker 1: seventy years than anyone. But then a Russian lab got
Speaker 1: in on the game, West German lab gun in on
Speaker 1: the game, and there started to be sort of an
Speaker 1: arms race to like get your own square on the
Speaker 1: periodic table, and there was a lot of disputes over
Speaker 1: who actually created you know, element one o four, who
Speaker 1: created element one oh six and uh an international body
Speaker 1: had to be brought in to resolve the dispute. They
Speaker 1: sent scientists to all the labs to say, like, okay,
Speaker 1: we think you guys actually discovered it um, so you
Speaker 1: get to name it. And some of the elements they
Speaker 1: couldn't really figure it out, so they the panel sorted out,
Speaker 1: you know, which one would be named after who, So
Speaker 1: you got elements like dubnium named after the Russian lab
Speaker 1: and um Seaboard. Game was controversial both because it was
Speaker 1: named after a living scientist, which was regarded as a
Speaker 1: little ghosh um, but also because the body came out
Speaker 1: saying you can't do this, we we won't name it
Speaker 1: after you, and the US basically said, well to heck
Speaker 1: with that, and a powerful chemistry body that published journals
Speaker 1: that all this I just wanted to be in stood
Speaker 1: up and said, yep, we're going to keep using Seborg.
Speaker 1: Giam and the international community back down and said, all right,
Speaker 1: Seborg game it is. So that's now element one O six.
Speaker 1: I've got to say, I never really thought about the
Speaker 1: naming of periodic elements before. I'm missing out. I love
Speaker 1: that American scientists are like, no, we're putting our foot down.
Speaker 1: Yeah we got this one. Oh yeah. And with that said,
Speaker 1: if you're interested, you can go out find an issue,
Speaker 1: pick up Bloomberg Business Week, and you can read more
Speaker 1: about all we've discussed in more Subscribers always welcome. You
Speaker 1: can also find the issue at Bloomberg dot com, slash elements,
Speaker 1: or if you're a terminal user, go to mag Go.
Speaker 1: Joel Weber, thank you so much for co hosting. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. Mike. I'm sorry that I'm in the
Speaker 1: running for your job again. He's scared. He's scared. And
Speaker 1: Jeremy Kean, Eddie Vanderwalt, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, guys. What goes up. We'll be
Speaker 1: back next week. Until then, you can find us on
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg terminal website and app, or wherever you your podcasts.
Speaker 1: We'd love it if you took the time to rate
Speaker 1: and interview the show on Apple Podcast so more listeners
Speaker 1: can find us, and you can find us on Twitter.
Speaker 1: Follow me at at Sarah Pontack, Mike is at Reaganonymous,
Speaker 1: Joel Webber is at Joel Webber Show, and check out
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business Week at b W. You can also follow
Speaker 1: Bloomberg podcasts at podcast What Goes Up is produced by
Speaker 1: tiber Forehead. The head of Bloomberg Podcast is Francesca Leavie.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you next time.