WEBVTT - Ep. 07: Jefferson’s "Other" Lewis & Clark

0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:05.880
<v Speaker 1>When Thomas Jefferson acquired the eight hundred million acre Louisiana purchase,

0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:10.039
<v Speaker 1>he launched a second major exploring expedition into the West,

0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:14.280
<v Speaker 1>one with an entirely different outcome than Lewis and Clark's,

0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:18.040
<v Speaker 1>an outcome that shines a new light on what Lewis

0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:22.400
<v Speaker 1>and Clark's journey really meant for America. I'm Dan Flory's

0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:26.480
<v Speaker 1>and this is the American West, brought to you by

0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:30.600
<v Speaker 1>Velvet Buck. Still in barrel, Velvet Buck arrives this summer

0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:33.520
<v Speaker 1>just in time for the season that calls us home.

0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:38.000
<v Speaker 1>A portion of every bottle supports backcountry hunters and anglers

0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:56.720
<v Speaker 1>to protect public lands, waters and wildlife enjoy responsibly. Jefferson's

0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:07.319
<v Speaker 1>other Lewis and Clark. On a gray Tuesday in November

0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:10.760
<v Speaker 1>of the year eighteen oh five, with a chill wind

0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:14.640
<v Speaker 1>scattering autumn leaves into the puddles of Washington's muddy streets,

0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:18.559
<v Speaker 1>White House staff admitted a caller for a private dinner

0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:24.559
<v Speaker 1>with the President of the United States that November evening.

0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:31.800
<v Speaker 1>Thomas Freeman must have felt his future was made. Thomas

0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:35.560
<v Speaker 1>Jefferson was about to offer him a plum appointment. The

0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:40.120
<v Speaker 1>leadership of one of his prized explorations into the Louisiana purchase,

0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:42.840
<v Speaker 1>one of the most fascinating parts of the globe for

0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:47.520
<v Speaker 1>scientific study. With Meriwether Lewis and his party already on

0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:50.880
<v Speaker 1>the shores of the Pacific, Jefferson was turning to Freeman,

0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:55.400
<v Speaker 1>a civilian astronomer who'd immigrated from Ireland, to lead an

0:01:55.400 --> 0:02:00.920
<v Speaker 1>exploring party into southwestern America. Jefferson and call this new

0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:04.880
<v Speaker 1>probe the Grand Expedition, and he was aiming it at

0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:08.720
<v Speaker 1>the Red River of the South, which natural history titan

0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.320
<v Speaker 1>Alexander von Humboldt had assured the President would take American

0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:16.160
<v Speaker 1>explorers into vast deserts and the southerly ranges of the

0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:21.320
<v Speaker 1>Shining Mountains. Along with Humboldt, Jefferson had canvass a number

0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:25.720
<v Speaker 1>of scientists who'd been gathering information about the Southwest, and

0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:30.840
<v Speaker 1>he was fascinated. The young United States had geopolitical reasons

0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:35.120
<v Speaker 1>for exploring Louisiana, but at heart, Jefferson was a naturalist

0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:39.440
<v Speaker 1>who dug fossils and written his own book about Virginia.

0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:44.760
<v Speaker 1>His informants about the Southwest told him wonderful stories about

0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:49.960
<v Speaker 1>volcanoes and tigers and herds, of wild horses, among innumerable

0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:53.880
<v Speaker 1>buffalo and wolves. He knew that camels, what he called

0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:58.200
<v Speaker 1>the yama or paca of Peru, still existed in similar

0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:02.440
<v Speaker 1>country in South America, and since there was already evidence

0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:07.640
<v Speaker 1>of elephants in America by then Charles Wilson Peel had laboriously,

0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:11.960
<v Speaker 1>if badly, reassembled the skeleton of one for his museum

0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:15.359
<v Speaker 1>in Philadelphia, elephants might still be in the West. Two

0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.520
<v Speaker 1>Meriwether Lewis had shipped enough reports and specimens back from

0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:24.399
<v Speaker 1>the Missouri River that science was already buzzing about animals

0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:28.320
<v Speaker 1>and birds never seen in the Eastern States, and Jefferson's

0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:32.639
<v Speaker 1>hope was that America's most famous naturalist, William Bartram, would

0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:37.720
<v Speaker 1>accompany Freeman into the Southwest. Bartram was in his late sixties, though,

0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:42.000
<v Speaker 1>so instead promoted Alexander Wilson, soon to be America's first

0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:47.480
<v Speaker 1>great bird painter, as Freeman's naturalist. Jefferson instead chose a

0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:51.320
<v Speaker 1>young Virginian whose family he knew well. Thus did a

0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:56.520
<v Speaker 1>University of Pennsylvania medical student named Peter Custis become the

0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:00.520
<v Speaker 1>first scientist trained in an American university to when a

0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:05.240
<v Speaker 1>posting as a naturalist to the west. Congress had come

0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:08.960
<v Speaker 1>up with twice the funding for this expedition, as it

0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:12.360
<v Speaker 1>had for Lewis and Clark. So when his private dinner

0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:16.080
<v Speaker 1>with the President concluded, Thomas Freeman stepped into the Washington

0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:20.960
<v Speaker 1>Knight holding seven pages of exploring instructions written in Jefferson's

0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:25.240
<v Speaker 1>clear handwriting. He knew, he wrote, a friend, the hazards

0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:28.640
<v Speaker 1>of travel in the neighborhood of Santa Fe. A great

0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:32.640
<v Speaker 1>many difficulties, in some personal danger will attend the expedition,

0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:36.480
<v Speaker 1>but I will stick or go through the more danger,

0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:42.680
<v Speaker 1>the more honor. Jefferson's instructions, which Freeman must have scanned repeatedly,

0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:48.039
<v Speaker 1>still exists in the Library of Congress. They include intriguing

0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:51.840
<v Speaker 1>directions that also appeared in the exploring instructions the President

0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:55.919
<v Speaker 1>had given Meriwether Lewis. The following objects in the country

0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.080
<v Speaker 1>adjacent to the rivers along which you will pass will

0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:02.400
<v Speaker 1>be worthy of notice. The animals of the country generally,

0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:06.599
<v Speaker 1>and especially those not known in the maritime states. And

0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:11.040
<v Speaker 1>the remains and accounts of any which may be deemed extinct.

0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:15.479
<v Speaker 1>The western half of North America then was the country,

0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:19.960
<v Speaker 1>and the eighteen hundreds was the century that ultimately answered

0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:25.160
<v Speaker 1>many fundamental questions about America's destiny. With the Louisiana purchase,

0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:30.279
<v Speaker 1>Jefferson's administration had affected a continental future for the US,

0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:33.039
<v Speaker 1>Like a stone rolling down a mountain. The US in

0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:37.000
<v Speaker 1>the eighteen hundreds would claim and buy and seize much

0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:41.440
<v Speaker 1>more of the continent. Eventually, everything from southwestern deserts to

0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:45.159
<v Speaker 1>Alaska on tundra what had been and could have remained

0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:49.760
<v Speaker 1>Native America or French, British or Mexican territory over the

0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:53.200
<v Speaker 1>next sixty years would become part of the US. Thus

0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:59.600
<v Speaker 1>did the West become ours? There was that intriguing final

0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:04.200
<v Speaker 1>line in Jefferson's Natural History Instructions too, about one of

0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:09.119
<v Speaker 1>the grand scientific questions of the age, was extinction real?

0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:14.000
<v Speaker 1>Were camels and elephants still out there? Or had they, somehow,

0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:18.960
<v Speaker 1>for some unknown reason, vanished from America? Could living creatures

0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:23.760
<v Speaker 1>really entirely disappear on a planet Christianity had long believed

0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:28.080
<v Speaker 1>was designed as perfection by a creator. How could species

0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:32.239
<v Speaker 1>God had placed on Earth vanish, leaving us with only

0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:37.360
<v Speaker 1>their enigmatic bones and skeletons. These questions, and many others,

0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:41.160
<v Speaker 1>were why Jefferson aimed a second major exploring expedition at

0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:47.520
<v Speaker 1>the West. It's a foregone conclusion that everyone listening to

0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:51.040
<v Speaker 1>this has long known about Lewis and Clark, America's most

0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:54.279
<v Speaker 1>famous explorers. I would wague that the chances are almost

0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:57.840
<v Speaker 1>non existent, though, that you've ever heard of Thomas Freeman

0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:01.800
<v Speaker 1>or doctor Peter Custis own about an eighteen oh six

0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:05.240
<v Speaker 1>American probe into the West that was known as the

0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:09.840
<v Speaker 1>Grand Expedition. Yet two centuries and two decades ago, a

0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:14.040
<v Speaker 1>party of superbly equipped American explorers was working its way

0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:18.480
<v Speaker 1>up the Red River of Louisiana, Arkansas, Texas, and Oklahoma,

0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:23.200
<v Speaker 1>painstakingly mapping the country, holding councils with all the local tribes,

0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:28.440
<v Speaker 1>and making collections of plants, wildlife, and geology. Both President

0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.720
<v Speaker 1>Jefferson and the party's leaders thought of this as the

0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:35.440
<v Speaker 1>Southwestern counterpart to the Lewis and Clark Party, which in

0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:40.440
<v Speaker 1>that same summer was returning from a successful exploration across

0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:48.000
<v Speaker 1>darkest North America to the Pacific by intent. Freeman, an engineer, surveyor,

0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:52.640
<v Speaker 1>and cartographer, and Custis, a student of Benjamin Smith Barton

0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.520
<v Speaker 1>in America's best university at the time, should today be

0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:59.760
<v Speaker 1>as famous as any historical figures who aren't President Sir

0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:03.160
<v Speaker 1>Jeah Generals, Jefferson had picked them the lead a scientific

0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:06.560
<v Speaker 1>reconnaissance across the Great Plains to the Rockies as far

0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.800
<v Speaker 1>as legendary Santa Fe. We ought to have heard about

0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.440
<v Speaker 1>them in junior high school social studies the way we

0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:15.920
<v Speaker 1>hear about Neil Armstrong's one giant Leap for mankind on

0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:20.239
<v Speaker 1>the Moon, but then once so wrong with Jefferson's second

0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:24.720
<v Speaker 1>expedition to the West that it's now invisible in American history.

0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.440
<v Speaker 1>In a master plan Jefferson had set down in eighteen

0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:35.040
<v Speaker 1>o three, America's third president, had outlined four major expeditions

0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:39.240
<v Speaker 1>he hoped to send into the New Louisiana Purchase. In

0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:42.560
<v Speaker 1>a precient prediction of the future destiny of the US,

0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.920
<v Speaker 1>Jefferson believed an expedition into the southern parts of the Purchase,

0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:50.520
<v Speaker 1>aimed at what we today called the Southwest, was almost

0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:53.720
<v Speaker 1>as critical as having Lewis and Clark search for the

0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:58.800
<v Speaker 1>Northwest Passage. Fundamentally, American exploring parties in the West would

0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:03.600
<v Speaker 1>establish a national presence on North American geography that Jefferson

0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:08.200
<v Speaker 1>hoped both European powers and Native people would acknowledge, and

0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:12.280
<v Speaker 1>as with his questions about extinction, Western exploration represented the

0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:17.640
<v Speaker 1>Jefferson administration's official support of cutting edge science. What was

0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:22.160
<v Speaker 1>out there? What new wonders existed on this last continent

0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:26.640
<v Speaker 1>that humans had found on Earth? But Lewis and Clark

0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:31.120
<v Speaker 1>would leave those questions unanswered for an enormous stretch of

0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:35.000
<v Speaker 1>the Louisiana purchase. So, in an exchange of letters with

0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.720
<v Speaker 1>Meriwether Lewis in eighteen oh three, Jefferson had told Lewis

0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:42.880
<v Speaker 1>that the object of your mission is single, the direct

0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.720
<v Speaker 1>water communication from sea to sea. I will also send

0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.840
<v Speaker 1>a party up the Red River to its head, then

0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:53.080
<v Speaker 1>cross over to the head of the Arkansas and come down.

0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:58.920
<v Speaker 1>That this will be attempted distinctly from your mission. So

0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:02.640
<v Speaker 1>what's Lewis and Clark underway? In eighteen oh four, Jefferson

0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:05.920
<v Speaker 1>devoted the time he had for expiation to two years

0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.720
<v Speaker 1>of detailed planning and a budget of five thousand dollars

0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:13.839
<v Speaker 1>from Congress to send his next grand expedition into the

0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:23.040
<v Speaker 1>heart of the West. The problems for this second expedition began, though,

0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:28.320
<v Speaker 1>with the choice of rivers. Jefferson told a friend that

0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:31.520
<v Speaker 1>he regarded the Red River of the South as next

0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:35.080
<v Speaker 1>to the Missouri, the most interesting water of the Mississippi.

0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.800
<v Speaker 1>But unfortunately he was smitten by the Red in part

0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:43.400
<v Speaker 1>because he misunderstood it. Soon after his purchase of the

0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:47.680
<v Speaker 1>Louisiana territory, Jefferson had made known his belief that its

0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:52.679
<v Speaker 1>proper southern boundary was actually the Rio grand River. That

0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:57.040
<v Speaker 1>startling claim meant that the upstart United States believed it

0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:01.679
<v Speaker 1>now possessed not merely the French colonies in Louisiana and Missouri,

0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:06.560
<v Speaker 1>but also Texas and New Mexico, where Spain had settlements

0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:11.240
<v Speaker 1>that dated back to the early sixteen hundreds. Spain's diplomat

0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.920
<v Speaker 1>to the US responded that this was absurd reasoning, but

0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:18.959
<v Speaker 1>Jefferson had alarmed Spain, which was already struggling to hold

0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:23.440
<v Speaker 1>on to its American colonies. The Spanish monarchy was highly

0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:27.920
<v Speaker 1>suspicious of America's claim that, as a democratic republic, it

0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:35.200
<v Speaker 1>represented the future for North America. Jefferson's claims unnecessarily rile Spain,

0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:39.400
<v Speaker 1>and unfortunately, his attempts to regroup and turn the Red River,

0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.959
<v Speaker 1>where he was able to document far more French activity

0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:46.920
<v Speaker 1>than on the Rio Grande, into a compromise boundary failed

0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:50.080
<v Speaker 1>to appease the Spanish government. But in the world of

0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:54.280
<v Speaker 1>the Southwest and its geography, how feasible was an expiration

0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:57.840
<v Speaker 1>up the Red River and then down the Arkansas. Anyway?

0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:02.439
<v Speaker 1>The essential first question of this pairing was where would

0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:08.559
<v Speaker 1>the Red River lead American explorers. Jefferson assumed that major

0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:11.680
<v Speaker 1>rivers had in mountain ranges, and that, given its lower

0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:15.480
<v Speaker 1>course and size, the Red must have its origins somewhere

0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:18.720
<v Speaker 1>in the southern ranges of the Shining Mountains, near the

0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:23.160
<v Speaker 1>tantalizing destination of Santa Fe. That assumption appeared to be

0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:27.600
<v Speaker 1>corroborated by recent maps, particularly a brand new one drawn

0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:32.440
<v Speaker 1>by the famous Prussian naturalists himself Alexander von Humboldt, and

0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:37.320
<v Speaker 1>based on his map work in Mexico City's archives. Humboldt

0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:41.840
<v Speaker 1>knew that Lower Louisiana was bisected north and south by

0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:45.880
<v Speaker 1>a river the French called River Rouge that flowed from

0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:48.800
<v Speaker 1>the west, and he knew that from the high Rockies

0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:53.599
<v Speaker 1>near Santa Fe, a reddish river flowed eastward. Surely, the

0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:58.080
<v Speaker 1>river the Spaniards saw, and one thousand miles later Fritchman saw,

0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:01.320
<v Speaker 1>was the same one the Americans who are now calling

0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:05.800
<v Speaker 1>the Red so that's how Humboldt drew it. Just as

0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:08.440
<v Speaker 1>Lewis and Clark were to open an economic route up

0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.880
<v Speaker 1>the Missouri to the northwest, the Red appeared poised to

0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:15.280
<v Speaker 1>do the same with a proto Santa Fe trailed trade

0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:19.880
<v Speaker 1>route between Louisiana and New Mexico. If in fact, the

0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:26.640
<v Speaker 1>Southern Rockies was where the Red River headed. Jefferson issued

0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.920
<v Speaker 1>a call to the American scientific community for more information

0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:33.679
<v Speaker 1>about the Southwest, and he got it. A New York

0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:37.000
<v Speaker 1>nationalist named Samuel Mitchell told the President the Red was

0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:40.440
<v Speaker 1>supposed to be navigable for one thousand miles above the

0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:45.040
<v Speaker 1>last French town on it century old Nakanish, and that

0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:51.760
<v Speaker 1>it penetrated a country of immense prairies with alligators, buffalo tigers, wolves,

0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:57.480
<v Speaker 1>and innumerable herds of wild horses. The Scottish expatriate scientist

0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:01.600
<v Speaker 1>Sir William Dunbar wrote of the Redd's long course and

0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:07.199
<v Speaker 1>its sources in what he called salt Mountains. Dunbar dangled

0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:12.840
<v Speaker 1>wonderful stories of wonderful productions, including possibly unicorns on the

0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:16.119
<v Speaker 1>southern prairie, and in the wake of a recent mastodon

0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:21.280
<v Speaker 1>skeleton excavation in Kentucky. Giant water serpents too, he thought

0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:26.080
<v Speaker 1>might be in the Southwest. Dunbar also reported vague stories

0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:30.480
<v Speaker 1>of masses of metal venerated by the Indians and assumed

0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.760
<v Speaker 1>to be silver ore, and more of those. In the

0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:39.240
<v Speaker 1>next episode from his Indian agent in Nacrish, doctor John Sibley,

0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:43.800
<v Speaker 1>Jefferson learned one other critical bit of information. As the

0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:47.440
<v Speaker 1>gateway to New Mexico, the Upper Red, was controlled by

0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:52.200
<v Speaker 1>the horticultural Pawnees, actually the Wichitas as we know them today,

0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:57.440
<v Speaker 1>under their forceful leader Awahakai, and a buffalo hunting people

0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:01.200
<v Speaker 1>sibly referred to as the Aton, who we now know

0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:05.360
<v Speaker 1>as the Comanches. These Indians, who had fond memories of

0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:08.720
<v Speaker 1>the days when Spanish and French traders had competed for

0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:12.960
<v Speaker 1>their friendship, were openly expressing interest in the Americans. That

0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:17.920
<v Speaker 1>was music to Jefferson's ears. While the natural history particulars

0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:22.640
<v Speaker 1>the President was hearing were vaguely real, the geography, unfortunately,

0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.360
<v Speaker 1>was not. There were those who knew the truth about

0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:30.240
<v Speaker 1>the Red even this early in the seventeen eighties and

0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:35.000
<v Speaker 1>seventeen nineties. The Spanish government had dispatched French and Spanish

0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:39.200
<v Speaker 1>explorers to link the towns of Saint Louis, Nacotish, and

0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:43.480
<v Speaker 1>San Antonio with distant Santa Fe. Some of them traveled

0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:46.440
<v Speaker 1>the Red River, and they knew it did not lead

0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:49.360
<v Speaker 1>them to Santa Fe. But what had caught the attention

0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:53.240
<v Speaker 1>of Spanish officials was acclaimed by one of them, Pierre Vial,

0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:56.800
<v Speaker 1>in seventeen ninety three, that it was possible to journey

0:15:56.800 --> 0:15:59.840
<v Speaker 1>from Saint Louis to Santa Fe in little more than

0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:04.560
<v Speaker 1>three weeks. The revolutionary Americans were that close. That was

0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:11.160
<v Speaker 1>far too close. Among Jefferson's informants, there was one who

0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:14.840
<v Speaker 1>gave the President accurate information about his choice of a river.

0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:19.840
<v Speaker 1>A scheming and controversial general named James Wilkinson presented the

0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:23.120
<v Speaker 1>President with a twenty two page letter about the Southwest,

0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:27.320
<v Speaker 1>designed to excite the presidential eye. As Wilkinson put it,

0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:32.840
<v Speaker 1>among the various details about the natural history of this

0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:36.960
<v Speaker 1>wonderful country, there was actually an accurate description of the

0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:41.200
<v Speaker 1>Upper Red River, one almost certainly based on the travels

0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:45.560
<v Speaker 1>of a young American horse trader named Philip Nolan, a

0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:48.560
<v Speaker 1>man worthy of a fuller treatment in a later episode

0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:53.880
<v Speaker 1>of this podcast above the Wichita villages. The Red River Fort.

0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:57.680
<v Speaker 1>The right hand fort flowed through a mountain ridge to

0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:01.400
<v Speaker 1>the west, but the left hand for which was the longer,

0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:07.520
<v Speaker 1>spilled off an open plain, Wilkinson said, so extensive as

0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:11.920
<v Speaker 1>to require the Indians four days in crossing it. Beyond

0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.160
<v Speaker 1>that high plain there was a river running south, and

0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:21.600
<v Speaker 1>beyond that very high mountains disappearing into northern distances. Had

0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:26.280
<v Speaker 1>the Americans understood this description, which accurately portrayed the headwaters

0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:29.879
<v Speaker 1>of the Red River in Great Canyons eroded into the

0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:33.960
<v Speaker 1>Yano Wes Tocado or the Stake Plain, with the Pecos

0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:37.480
<v Speaker 1>River flowing south beyond that, and with the Rockies in

0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:41.000
<v Speaker 1>Santa Fe still many days to the northwest, they would

0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:44.320
<v Speaker 1>have understood that the Arkansas River, not the Red, was

0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:47.920
<v Speaker 1>the correct route to the Rockies. The Arkansas would also

0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.639
<v Speaker 1>have had the added benefit that the Missouri did for

0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:54.119
<v Speaker 1>Lewis and Clark. It would have gotten American explorers farther

0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:57.760
<v Speaker 1>away from Spanish forces sent out to stop the Americans

0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:02.840
<v Speaker 1>from examining the West. The truth was that Jefferson's insistence

0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:05.800
<v Speaker 1>on the Red for his second Big Western expedition was

0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:09.480
<v Speaker 1>ill start, and the result was that Freeman's and Custos's

0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:13.200
<v Speaker 1>chances at becoming American heroes like Lewis and Clark were

0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:18.000
<v Speaker 1>about to evaporate. The letter of exploring instructions Jefferson had

0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.800
<v Speaker 1>given him in November of eighteen oh four included a

0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:23.800
<v Speaker 1>line also in the Lewis and Clark letter that would

0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:28.240
<v Speaker 1>prove far more significant in the Southwest. If at any

0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:32.560
<v Speaker 1>time a superior force, authorized or not authorized by a

0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:36.560
<v Speaker 1>nation should be arrayed against your further passage and inflexibly

0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:40.400
<v Speaker 1>determined to arrest it, you must decline its further pursuit

0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:44.919
<v Speaker 1>and return. So Freeman, it turned out, would neither stick

0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:48.840
<v Speaker 1>nor go through. In fact, he was about to bounce

0:18:49.200 --> 0:19:01.000
<v Speaker 1>right out of American history, With both Spain and Native

0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:05.600
<v Speaker 1>peoples like the Osages making threatening noises about Americans penetrating

0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:10.440
<v Speaker 1>the Southwest. Jefferson personally selected Captain Richard Sparks, familiar to

0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:13.879
<v Speaker 1>him via Lewis, as one of the best woodsman, bushfighters

0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:17.359
<v Speaker 1>and hunters in the army, to head a military contingent

0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:21.520
<v Speaker 1>to accompany the two scientific leaders. Now in the spring

0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:24.879
<v Speaker 1>of eighteen oh six, all was haste in procuring French

0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.159
<v Speaker 1>and Native guides and laying in supplies so that the

0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:32.000
<v Speaker 1>Grand Expeditions specially designed barges could take them up river

0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:35.359
<v Speaker 1>as far as the Wichitaa villages, whence they planned to

0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:39.399
<v Speaker 1>explore westward by horseback. Freeman directed the purchase of a

0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:44.879
<v Speaker 1>camera obscura to produce topographic images, a high quality chronometer

0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:49.440
<v Speaker 1>for fixing longitudes, and a portable barometer for taking elevations,

0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:54.000
<v Speaker 1>along with an acrochromatic telescope to help fix latitudes by

0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:58.760
<v Speaker 1>observing the eclipses of Jupiter's moons. Custus brought a shotgun,

0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:03.040
<v Speaker 1>plant presses, and various traps and preservation equipment, plus a

0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:08.600
<v Speaker 1>library of natural history reference volumes. By mid April of

0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.360
<v Speaker 1>eighteen oh six, the bulk of the exploring party had

0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:15.359
<v Speaker 1>assembled in Natchez, Mississippi, where they conducted a last round

0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:20.000
<v Speaker 1>of outfitting. Sparks selected two non commissioned officers and seventeen

0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:24.200
<v Speaker 1>privates for their general good health and robust temperaments. As

0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:26.760
<v Speaker 1>with Lewis and Clark, there was an African American member

0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:29.880
<v Speaker 1>of the expedition who may have arrived with Peter Custis.

0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:34.840
<v Speaker 1>Unlike York, we don't know his name. This party entered

0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:36.840
<v Speaker 1>the mouth of the Red River on May the first,

0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:41.600
<v Speaker 1>anticipating a year long probe taking them some thirteen hundred

0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:46.240
<v Speaker 1>river miles into the western interior. But despite their high spirits,

0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.119
<v Speaker 1>they couldn't miss the warning signs on the Spanish border.

0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:54.439
<v Speaker 1>As Custius would confide in his journal, this expedition seems

0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:58.960
<v Speaker 1>to have thrown their whole country in the commotion because

0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:01.840
<v Speaker 1>the Red River was got nearly so distant from Spanish

0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:05.359
<v Speaker 1>power as the Missouri Madrid got active in a hurry,

0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:09.280
<v Speaker 1>it quickly dispatched not one but two bodies of troops

0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:13.119
<v Speaker 1>to intercept Freeman and Cussis. One with two hundred cavalry,

0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:17.640
<v Speaker 1>commanded by Captain Francisco Vianna, left Nacadochus in East Texas

0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.840
<v Speaker 1>to confront the Americans on the Lower River. The other,

0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:24.720
<v Speaker 1>which Zebulun Pike, who mistakenly thought he was its target,

0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:28.880
<v Speaker 1>described as the most important expedition ever sent out from

0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:33.520
<v Speaker 1>the province of New Mexico, was the Insurance Policy, commanded

0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:36.960
<v Speaker 1>by Lieutenant Ficundo Melgari's. It left Santa Fe bound for

0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:41.560
<v Speaker 1>the Red in early June of eighteen oh six, With

0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:44.720
<v Speaker 1>that time and the summer of eighteen oh six merely

0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:50.920
<v Speaker 1>waited out the geopolitical rendezvous. When Jefferson's explorers arrived in Nacotash,

0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:54.080
<v Speaker 1>the last American outposts on the Red, and heard of

0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:57.480
<v Speaker 1>the ominous Spanish troop movements, the two questions they must

0:21:57.480 --> 0:21:59.800
<v Speaker 1>have been asking themselves were how far are we going

0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:03.760
<v Speaker 1>to get? And will I live through this? Nonetheless, this

0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:07.160
<v Speaker 1>was the President's own mission. Now brought up to fifty

0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.679
<v Speaker 1>men with French and two Indian guides and a total

0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:15.119
<v Speaker 1>of seven craft, making it the largest American exploring party

0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:19.480
<v Speaker 1>of the age. Freeman's stick or go through aphorism was

0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:26.000
<v Speaker 1>about to be tested. Confronting only nature, the aphorism worked.

0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:28.920
<v Speaker 1>In the course of their five month exploration, the party

0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:32.240
<v Speaker 1>would confront many remarkable phenomena of the Red Rivers in

0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:36.159
<v Speaker 1>natural ecology. One of those was the Great Raft, a

0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:40.000
<v Speaker 1>thousand year old logjam that entirely blocked the river for

0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:43.600
<v Speaker 1>more than one hundred miles. To get their boats around

0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:46.719
<v Speaker 1>this massive obstacle, they had to detour through a swamp

0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:52.640
<v Speaker 1>land that likely rivaled today's ok Finoki Swamp. For naturalist custos,

0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:56.320
<v Speaker 1>the Great Swamp was a botanical treasure. For everyone else,

0:22:56.400 --> 0:23:00.919
<v Speaker 1>it was pure misery. Fourteen days of incep sent fatigue,

0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:04.320
<v Speaker 1>toil and danger, doubt and uncertainty, as Freeman put it.

0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:08.400
<v Speaker 1>Beyond the route, Freeman got a first opportunity to try

0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:11.600
<v Speaker 1>out his diplomatic skills on the Indians, whose country they

0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:16.000
<v Speaker 1>now entered, an ancient but reduced population of mound builders,

0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:20.399
<v Speaker 1>the Catto Confederacy. For two weeks the Americans treated with

0:23:20.520 --> 0:23:24.159
<v Speaker 1>de Heehuitt, hereditary chief of the Caddos, to whom Freeman

0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:28.320
<v Speaker 1>presented US flags and solicited Catto endorsement of the exploration.

0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:32.680
<v Speaker 1>Custus meanwhile observed and wrote of Catto and customs and skills.

0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:36.080
<v Speaker 1>Their talents with the bow, he said, put him in

0:23:36.160 --> 0:23:39.000
<v Speaker 1>mind of stories from the Iliad, and he posted a

0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:44.320
<v Speaker 1>twenty six specimen botanical collection downriver for Custis. The beautiful

0:23:44.320 --> 0:23:47.639
<v Speaker 1>Red River Valley seemed the paradise of America, as he

0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:52.119
<v Speaker 1>called it. The naturalists Eden Jefferson and Promise the image

0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:54.359
<v Speaker 1>of Freeman and Custus ill starred as they were that

0:23:54.440 --> 0:23:58.600
<v Speaker 1>I savor Is, then proceeding upriver in July of eighteen

0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:02.240
<v Speaker 1>oh six, busily studying the river valley, made aware by

0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:05.680
<v Speaker 1>the Caddos that a Spanish force four times their number

0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:08.960
<v Speaker 1>was shadowing them in the undulating hills to the west.

0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:13.240
<v Speaker 1>Guided by the Caddos, cut Finger and grand Ose Ages,

0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:16.680
<v Speaker 1>the party engaged in a series of minor adventures, at

0:24:16.680 --> 0:24:20.200
<v Speaker 1>one point ascending a small mountain prominent in the Caddo

0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:24.159
<v Speaker 1>creation myth and consuming a bottle of whiskey with their guides.

0:24:25.280 --> 0:24:27.399
<v Speaker 1>By the twenty second of July, they had rounded the

0:24:27.440 --> 0:24:30.800
<v Speaker 1>Great Band of the Red near present Texarkana and were

0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:34.320
<v Speaker 1>heading due west. On July the twenty seventh, the Caddoes

0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:37.439
<v Speaker 1>told them that they had reached the former location of

0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:41.439
<v Speaker 1>Bnard de la Harp's early eighteenth century trading post that

0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:44.760
<v Speaker 1>had been the most westerly French settlement on the Red River,

0:24:45.119 --> 0:24:49.000
<v Speaker 1>beyond which Spain now insisted that the southwest belonged to

0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:55.040
<v Speaker 1>their monarchy. There was another alarming development too. After ascending

0:24:55.040 --> 0:24:57.760
<v Speaker 1>the river for two weeks without a thunderstorm, the water

0:24:57.840 --> 0:25:01.280
<v Speaker 1>in the Red was dropping fast. Still two to three

0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:04.320
<v Speaker 1>weeks from the Wichital villages, and whatever horses they could

0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:07.520
<v Speaker 1>purchase with their flags and gifts, the explorers were having

0:25:07.560 --> 0:25:11.240
<v Speaker 1>to drag their barges, their hulls grinding on channel gravel

0:25:11.480 --> 0:25:15.320
<v Speaker 1>up the river. As for the movements of the Spanish

0:25:15.320 --> 0:25:18.439
<v Speaker 1>troops sent to oppose them, they were direct and purposeful.

0:25:19.600 --> 0:25:23.040
<v Speaker 1>After angrily cutting down the American flag he found flying

0:25:23.200 --> 0:25:27.000
<v Speaker 1>into heehus Cadat village, Captain Vianna had marched his force

0:25:27.119 --> 0:25:30.040
<v Speaker 1>north to the Red taking a position on a bluff

0:25:30.280 --> 0:25:33.840
<v Speaker 1>that's been known ever since as Spanish Bluff, near the

0:25:33.920 --> 0:25:39.119
<v Speaker 1>present boundary between Oklahoma and Arkansas, sending a post to

0:25:39.200 --> 0:25:42.800
<v Speaker 1>his superior saying that he knew the irremedial damage that

0:25:42.840 --> 0:25:45.800
<v Speaker 1>would result to this province if the Union is accomplished

0:25:45.880 --> 0:25:49.040
<v Speaker 1>of the expedition of the United States with the faceless

0:25:49.160 --> 0:25:52.680
<v Speaker 1>Wichitaal Indians and the Comanches. Vianna wrote that he would

0:25:52.720 --> 0:25:56.159
<v Speaker 1>confront the Americans above the old French posts, as this

0:25:56.400 --> 0:26:03.760
<v Speaker 1>territory is ours. Lacking a successful exploration, Freeman very well

0:26:03.920 --> 0:26:07.240
<v Speaker 1>might have ensured his name in American history had he

0:26:07.440 --> 0:26:11.679
<v Speaker 1>opted for armed conflict, but there was no violent encounter.

0:26:11.880 --> 0:26:14.359
<v Speaker 1>When the Americans rounded a bend in the river and

0:26:14.520 --> 0:26:18.639
<v Speaker 1>faced a Spanish force four times their size arrayed across it,

0:26:19.960 --> 0:26:24.359
<v Speaker 1>Vianna politely but firmly refused to allow the Americans to pass,

0:26:25.080 --> 0:26:29.000
<v Speaker 1>and Freeman, with Jefferson's instructions in hand, if at any

0:26:29.080 --> 0:26:32.920
<v Speaker 1>time a superior force, authorized or not authorized by a nation,

0:26:33.080 --> 0:26:36.720
<v Speaker 1>should be arrayed against your further passage and inflexibly determined

0:26:36.760 --> 0:26:39.920
<v Speaker 1>to arrest it, you must decline its further pursuit. In return,

0:26:40.760 --> 0:26:45.200
<v Speaker 1>he made the mature decision the confrontation called for. The

0:26:45.359 --> 0:26:50.360
<v Speaker 1>date was July thirtieth, eighteen oh six. They had ascended

0:26:50.359 --> 0:26:53.200
<v Speaker 1>the Red River, six hundred and fifteen miles to the

0:26:53.320 --> 0:26:55.600
<v Speaker 1>edge of the black Land Prairies and the Great Plains,

0:26:55.680 --> 0:26:59.000
<v Speaker 1>but still only halfway to the Great Mystery of the

0:26:59.119 --> 0:27:04.199
<v Speaker 1>Red Sources. So Freeman agreed to turn back rather than

0:27:04.280 --> 0:27:07.600
<v Speaker 1>proceeding on. As Lewis and Clark often began their journal entries,

0:27:07.960 --> 0:27:13.440
<v Speaker 1>the Grand Expedition turned around in a young country like

0:27:13.520 --> 0:27:17.480
<v Speaker 1>the US, anxious about its reputation and longing for heroes

0:27:17.560 --> 0:27:21.119
<v Speaker 1>to celebrate. Thomas Freeman and Peter Custis and their mates,

0:27:21.359 --> 0:27:25.000
<v Speaker 1>on a presidentially authorized attempt to explore the West, return

0:27:25.160 --> 0:27:28.640
<v Speaker 1>to a country that quickly turned away and forgot them.

0:27:30.560 --> 0:27:35.080
<v Speaker 1>For a total expenditure at last of eighty seven hundred dollars,

0:27:35.640 --> 0:27:39.440
<v Speaker 1>Jefferson had launched an expedition that another power had forced

0:27:39.480 --> 0:27:43.080
<v Speaker 1>to retreat. Peter Custis's natural history work on the red

0:27:43.240 --> 0:27:47.040
<v Speaker 1>was highly intriguing. He had cataloged twenty two mammals, thirty

0:27:47.080 --> 0:27:51.800
<v Speaker 1>six birds, seventeen reptiles, fishes and amphibians, fifty eight trees,

0:27:52.080 --> 0:27:54.879
<v Speaker 1>and one hundred and thirty flowering plants, twenty six of

0:27:54.960 --> 0:27:58.720
<v Speaker 1>which he collected for the Academy of Natural Sciences of Philadelphia.

0:27:59.800 --> 0:28:04.760
<v Speaker 1>The meager geographic results meant that everyone involved understood, having

0:28:04.840 --> 0:28:07.520
<v Speaker 1>failed to penetrate the great planes and reached the rockies

0:28:07.560 --> 0:28:11.040
<v Speaker 1>in Santa Fe, the expedition was a failure. There was

0:28:11.240 --> 0:28:26.200
<v Speaker 1>just no other way to spend it. The President's public

0:28:26.280 --> 0:28:29.480
<v Speaker 1>reaction was clear enough. He preferred to concentrate on the

0:28:29.560 --> 0:28:32.159
<v Speaker 1>triumphant return of Lewis and Clark and to say as

0:28:32.200 --> 0:28:36.440
<v Speaker 1>little as possible about his second expedition. There are historians,

0:28:36.520 --> 0:28:40.320
<v Speaker 1>in fact, who have called this expedition a headstrong decision

0:28:40.400 --> 0:28:43.680
<v Speaker 1>that put in danger the lives of Americans pursuing an

0:28:43.680 --> 0:28:48.880
<v Speaker 1>impossible goal, and it does appear that Jefferson's own stubbornness embarrassing.

0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:53.600
<v Speaker 1>There was also an undercut of public suspicion. At least

0:28:53.640 --> 0:28:57.760
<v Speaker 1>one prominent newspaper would editorialize that the ferment with Spain

0:28:57.920 --> 0:29:01.200
<v Speaker 1>in eighteen oh six was not caused by Aaron Burr's

0:29:01.240 --> 0:29:05.440
<v Speaker 1>plot to invade the Southwest, as newspapers favorable to Jefferson's

0:29:05.440 --> 0:29:09.960
<v Speaker 1>administration tried to spin it, But by Jefferson's secret expeditions,

0:29:10.240 --> 0:29:16.600
<v Speaker 1>secret orders, and secret plans of exploration. The fate of

0:29:16.640 --> 0:29:20.080
<v Speaker 1>Freeman and Custis does beg another question, what if the

0:29:20.160 --> 0:29:23.840
<v Speaker 1>Spaniards who sent out two different expeditions to find Lewis

0:29:23.880 --> 0:29:28.240
<v Speaker 1>and Clark had also succeeded and blocked them. I suspect

0:29:28.280 --> 0:29:31.240
<v Speaker 1>the Freeman and Custis expedition provides us with an answer.

0:29:32.640 --> 0:29:35.960
<v Speaker 1>What happened to their expedition? Seems to argue that America's

0:29:36.000 --> 0:29:40.840
<v Speaker 1>destiny in the West didn't truly rest on successful Jeffersonian exploration.

0:29:41.800 --> 0:29:45.520
<v Speaker 1>Despite their failures, US traders carrying American goods and even

0:29:45.640 --> 0:29:49.080
<v Speaker 1>US flags still traveled among the Indians of the Southwest

0:29:49.360 --> 0:29:51.840
<v Speaker 1>in the years following, and more of this in the

0:29:51.920 --> 0:29:55.720
<v Speaker 1>next episode. By eighteen nineteen, the Red River to the

0:29:55.840 --> 0:29:59.240
<v Speaker 1>hundredth Parallel did finally become the boundary between Spain and

0:29:59.280 --> 0:30:03.680
<v Speaker 1>the US, and Mexico did revolt successfully against Spain to

0:30:03.800 --> 0:30:09.080
<v Speaker 1>create its own democratic republic. In eighteen twenty one. American

0:30:09.160 --> 0:30:14.160
<v Speaker 1>expansionist policies in the three decades after Jefferson still brought Texas,

0:30:14.560 --> 0:30:18.560
<v Speaker 1>New Mexico, and the far Southwest into the American orbit.

0:30:19.680 --> 0:30:24.200
<v Speaker 1>Had Spain similarly intercepted Lewis and Clark, The analogy provided

0:30:24.240 --> 0:30:27.760
<v Speaker 1>by Freeman and Custis argues that even without their expedition,

0:30:28.440 --> 0:30:31.240
<v Speaker 1>the history of the Northwest likely would have turned out

0:30:31.520 --> 0:30:35.120
<v Speaker 1>just about the same as it did. In the big picture,

0:30:35.480 --> 0:30:38.920
<v Speaker 1>other currents of nineteenth century history were more powerful than

0:30:39.000 --> 0:30:43.840
<v Speaker 1>Jeffersonian explorers. So remove Lewis and Clark from the American

0:30:43.920 --> 0:30:47.040
<v Speaker 1>story just as the Spanish force removed Freeman in Custice,

0:30:47.360 --> 0:30:52.000
<v Speaker 1>and probably not much would have changed geopolitically. But I

0:30:52.040 --> 0:30:57.960
<v Speaker 1>should emphasize geopolitically, a successful Lewis and Clark expedition was

0:30:58.000 --> 0:31:02.280
<v Speaker 1>a truly important historical event for America. What we would

0:31:02.320 --> 0:31:04.880
<v Speaker 1>have lost without Lewis and Clark in our history then

0:31:04.960 --> 0:31:10.480
<v Speaker 1>and now is our awestruck reaction towards New worlds. Lewis

0:31:10.520 --> 0:31:14.280
<v Speaker 1>and Clark gave us a carefully recorded ultimate camping trip

0:31:14.560 --> 0:31:17.000
<v Speaker 1>in a dream world that lay at the end of

0:31:17.160 --> 0:31:20.840
<v Speaker 1>sixty thousand years of human trekking out of Africa and

0:31:20.960 --> 0:31:25.240
<v Speaker 1>around the Earth. Behind us lay our footprints in the

0:31:25.320 --> 0:31:27.920
<v Speaker 1>American West of eighteen oh four to eighteen oh six.

0:31:28.440 --> 0:31:31.360
<v Speaker 1>We got one last glimpse, through Lewis and Clark of

0:31:31.480 --> 0:31:34.320
<v Speaker 1>what the whole earth had been in the deep past,

0:31:36.760 --> 0:31:39.920
<v Speaker 1>as our robot rovers tremble across Mars and send us

0:31:40.000 --> 0:31:43.080
<v Speaker 1>photographs that are analogues of their maps of America from

0:31:43.120 --> 0:31:46.080
<v Speaker 1>only two hundred years ago. We see expiration as a

0:31:46.160 --> 0:31:50.800
<v Speaker 1>specific American legacy, but that legacy is common to humanity everywhere.

0:31:51.960 --> 0:31:54.760
<v Speaker 1>Any human who doesn't live to see our footprints on

0:31:54.880 --> 0:31:57.840
<v Speaker 1>Mars is going to experience the kind of regret I

0:31:58.000 --> 0:32:01.120
<v Speaker 1>feel that Freeman and Custus didn't get to emulate Lewis

0:32:01.160 --> 0:32:05.160
<v Speaker 1>and Clark and explore the West, a regret that intrigued

0:32:05.200 --> 0:32:09.240
<v Speaker 1>me into once writing in a book I called Horizontal Yellow,

0:32:09.760 --> 0:32:12.960
<v Speaker 1>a little novella The River that Flowed from Nowhere that

0:32:13.120 --> 0:32:17.160
<v Speaker 1>imagines Freeman and Custis continuing up the Red River into

0:32:17.280 --> 0:32:20.920
<v Speaker 1>a Southwest beyond all of Thomas Jefferson's fantasies.

0:32:38.320 --> 0:32:41.320
<v Speaker 2>How did you How did you first become aware of

0:32:41.720 --> 0:32:45.400
<v Speaker 2>the Grand Expedition until I encountered it with you?

0:32:45.720 --> 0:32:46.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Never heard of it?

0:32:47.120 --> 0:32:47.600
<v Speaker 2>Never heard of it?

0:32:47.720 --> 0:32:51.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, and I don't think most people have ever

0:32:51.440 --> 0:32:56.920
<v Speaker 1>heard of it. I encountered it for a very simple reason.

0:32:57.840 --> 0:33:04.280
<v Speaker 1>I was getting a master's degree at Northwestern State in

0:33:04.520 --> 0:33:10.000
<v Speaker 1>Louisiana and there was an archivist there named Catherine Bridges,

0:33:10.040 --> 0:33:14.160
<v Speaker 1>and she was inquiring of me, So, what are you

0:33:14.440 --> 0:33:17.040
<v Speaker 1>interested in? What do you want to, you know, maybe

0:33:17.160 --> 0:33:21.640
<v Speaker 1>write a master's thesis about? And I said, well, you

0:33:21.720 --> 0:33:24.200
<v Speaker 1>know what I'm interested in. I mean, I'm interested in

0:33:25.320 --> 0:33:28.160
<v Speaker 1>Lewis and Clark in the fur trade, and you know,

0:33:28.360 --> 0:33:32.880
<v Speaker 1>all this kind of classic early Western stuff. And she

0:33:33.320 --> 0:33:36.600
<v Speaker 1>looked at me for a second and she said, so,

0:33:36.640 --> 0:33:38.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to tell you something I'm pretty sure you

0:33:38.560 --> 0:33:38.840
<v Speaker 1>don't know.

0:33:39.920 --> 0:33:41.000
<v Speaker 2>Stephen randaller a on it.

0:33:43.720 --> 0:33:45.880
<v Speaker 1>Stephen and Randall lead this expedition.

0:33:47.760 --> 0:33:48.960
<v Speaker 2>One day there will be born.

0:33:49.240 --> 0:33:53.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So she said, I'm going to tell you something

0:33:53.320 --> 0:33:57.680
<v Speaker 1>I bet you don't know. Thomas Jefferson sent a second

0:33:57.720 --> 0:34:02.240
<v Speaker 1>expedition out two years after Lewis and and he sent

0:34:02.320 --> 0:34:04.880
<v Speaker 1>it right up the Red River, and Red River flows

0:34:04.960 --> 0:34:06.280
<v Speaker 1>right through Nacolus, right through town.

0:34:07.480 --> 0:34:11.080
<v Speaker 2>Oh really, yes, yeah. And I grew up within about

0:34:11.200 --> 0:34:12.240
<v Speaker 2>where you were at that moment.

0:34:12.400 --> 0:34:14.080
<v Speaker 1>Where I was that moment, that's where I was curious

0:34:14.080 --> 0:34:15.239
<v Speaker 1>about eight miles from there.

0:34:15.320 --> 0:34:17.400
<v Speaker 3>I was curious whether you'd gotten on this because it

0:34:17.520 --> 0:34:19.600
<v Speaker 3>was a local store, local.

0:34:19.480 --> 0:34:20.800
<v Speaker 2>Story, and you hadn't even heard of it.

0:34:21.040 --> 0:34:23.239
<v Speaker 1>No, I hadn't heard of it, nor had anybody else.

0:34:23.880 --> 0:34:27.840
<v Speaker 1>And I will say that now, back in northwestern Louisiana,

0:34:28.200 --> 0:34:31.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, I mean, there are all kinds of people

0:34:31.160 --> 0:34:34.200
<v Speaker 1>who called me up and email me and text me

0:34:34.600 --> 0:34:37.840
<v Speaker 1>with these detailed questions, sort of like people do for

0:34:38.040 --> 0:34:41.160
<v Speaker 1>Lewis and Clark about this expedition. Because once people learned

0:34:41.200 --> 0:34:44.279
<v Speaker 1>about it back there, suddenly they were just all over it.

0:34:44.880 --> 0:34:47.239
<v Speaker 3>Oh do you think they saw this rock? Do you

0:34:47.320 --> 0:34:49.279
<v Speaker 3>think they camped under this big tree?

0:34:49.400 --> 0:34:53.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean an archaeologist found a button from one

0:34:53.040 --> 0:34:56.319
<v Speaker 1>of the jackets at one of their camps about twenty

0:34:56.400 --> 0:34:59.480
<v Speaker 1>five years ago, and that was national news. By publication

0:34:59.600 --> 0:35:03.520
<v Speaker 1>of the book was not national news. The button from

0:35:03.560 --> 0:35:08.000
<v Speaker 1>the camp was national news. But anyway, I said, so,

0:35:08.120 --> 0:35:10.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, you've got to be kidding. She said, no,

0:35:10.560 --> 0:35:14.359
<v Speaker 1>there's a there was an expedition. It went right through here.

0:35:14.920 --> 0:35:17.080
<v Speaker 1>It didn't ultimately, I said, well, so I farted they

0:35:17.160 --> 0:35:19.520
<v Speaker 1>get She said, well, they didn't get very far. They

0:35:19.560 --> 0:35:22.120
<v Speaker 1>got about six hundred and fifty seven hundred miles up

0:35:22.160 --> 0:35:24.239
<v Speaker 1>the Red River, and they got turned around by a

0:35:24.280 --> 0:35:27.160
<v Speaker 1>Spanish army. So that's why hardly anybody knows about it.

0:35:27.440 --> 0:35:29.880
<v Speaker 1>Because the United States was a young country, it was

0:35:30.000 --> 0:35:33.600
<v Speaker 1>looking for heroes to celebrate, didn't want to really celebrate,

0:35:33.760 --> 0:35:33.960
<v Speaker 1>you know.

0:35:34.120 --> 0:35:35.440
<v Speaker 2>Some group that chickens.

0:35:35.600 --> 0:35:39.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, European country had sort of whisk back home. So

0:35:40.480 --> 0:35:43.640
<v Speaker 1>I said, well, is there any account of it? She said, yeah,

0:35:43.680 --> 0:35:46.960
<v Speaker 1>we've got a microfilm of it. And so what she

0:35:47.239 --> 0:35:52.520
<v Speaker 1>showed me was a microfilm of the official government report

0:35:52.840 --> 0:35:55.759
<v Speaker 1>of this expedition in eighteen oh seven, the year after

0:35:55.840 --> 0:36:03.440
<v Speaker 1>the expedition took place, and that official government report was

0:36:03.560 --> 0:36:07.880
<v Speaker 1>written by somebody else. I finally discovered when I was

0:36:07.920 --> 0:36:10.280
<v Speaker 1>doing the book. A guy named Nicholas King was hired

0:36:10.280 --> 0:36:14.960
<v Speaker 1>by the administration to redact their original journals into a

0:36:15.200 --> 0:36:19.560
<v Speaker 1>single account. And this guy, Nicholas King, he not only

0:36:19.680 --> 0:36:22.319
<v Speaker 1>redacted the journals into a single account, so you couldn't tell,

0:36:22.600 --> 0:36:25.000
<v Speaker 1>for example, whether it was Freeman talking or it was

0:36:25.120 --> 0:36:29.480
<v Speaker 1>Custos talking. He converted it into third person rather than

0:36:29.520 --> 0:36:33.080
<v Speaker 1>in the first person of their journals. And the final

0:36:33.120 --> 0:36:35.160
<v Speaker 1>thing he did is I started looking closely at it

0:36:35.760 --> 0:36:37.759
<v Speaker 1>I was gone, I mean, there's this all this rich

0:36:37.920 --> 0:36:42.000
<v Speaker 1>natural history in this expedition, and I start trying to

0:36:42.200 --> 0:36:45.560
<v Speaker 1>figure out, so what was this tree? Shit? I can't

0:36:45.640 --> 0:36:49.840
<v Speaker 1>find anything that looks like it's named that. And what

0:36:50.080 --> 0:36:53.320
<v Speaker 1>I began to realize, and finally when I found the

0:36:53.440 --> 0:36:56.400
<v Speaker 1>original in the letters of the War Department where the

0:36:56.520 --> 0:37:01.239
<v Speaker 1>original accounts, journals and all were stored, and I found

0:37:01.280 --> 0:37:04.680
<v Speaker 1>the originals, I realized that this guy, Nicholas King, evidently

0:37:04.920 --> 0:37:08.759
<v Speaker 1>he couldn't read Peter Custis's handwriting, and so he just

0:37:09.040 --> 0:37:12.680
<v Speaker 1>destroyed all the Latin binomials of all the plants and

0:37:12.760 --> 0:37:16.200
<v Speaker 1>over and stuff. And so one of the things that

0:37:16.280 --> 0:37:18.560
<v Speaker 1>happened is the result of that is that Custice kind

0:37:18.600 --> 0:37:21.960
<v Speaker 1>of emerges from it with the American scientific community going,

0:37:23.080 --> 0:37:26.560
<v Speaker 1>what in the hell this guy? He's from the University

0:37:26.600 --> 0:37:28.920
<v Speaker 1>of Pennsylvania. He has said under Benjamins a bit of Barton,

0:37:29.440 --> 0:37:32.080
<v Speaker 1>and he doesn't know any of the scientific names of

0:37:32.160 --> 0:37:34.880
<v Speaker 1>the plants and animals. And in fact it was the

0:37:34.920 --> 0:37:38.399
<v Speaker 1>guy who redacted it. So what I did, ultimately when

0:37:38.440 --> 0:37:43.719
<v Speaker 1>I wrote the book was I found the original accounts,

0:37:44.440 --> 0:37:47.239
<v Speaker 1>and that's what I ended up, you know, I mean,

0:37:47.280 --> 0:37:49.240
<v Speaker 1>it's a big thing with the Lewis and Clark journals

0:37:49.280 --> 0:37:51.560
<v Speaker 1>that you published, the original journals of the account. So

0:37:51.880 --> 0:37:55.319
<v Speaker 1>once I found Freeman and Custis's stuff, I was able

0:37:55.360 --> 0:37:59.080
<v Speaker 1>to put together a story of it where the proper

0:37:59.160 --> 0:38:01.560
<v Speaker 1>stuff was a tribute to each one of them, and

0:38:02.080 --> 0:38:06.440
<v Speaker 1>all the scientific nomenclature was correct. And so it turned

0:38:06.480 --> 0:38:11.880
<v Speaker 1>it suddenly into two hundred years later, two hundred frigging

0:38:12.000 --> 0:38:17.680
<v Speaker 1>years later, into a really worthwhile scientific expedition that just

0:38:17.800 --> 0:38:20.719
<v Speaker 1>got cut off before they really could quite get out

0:38:20.800 --> 0:38:23.120
<v Speaker 1>to the great planes and start seeing all that stuff

0:38:23.160 --> 0:38:25.880
<v Speaker 1>that Lewis and Clark saw, all those new animals. They

0:38:25.960 --> 0:38:27.759
<v Speaker 1>stopped just short of that by about two days.

0:38:31.480 --> 0:38:36.720
<v Speaker 3>One of the things you see in especially popular history

0:38:36.800 --> 0:38:40.560
<v Speaker 3>is there's a tend towards these hypotheticals of like what

0:38:40.760 --> 0:38:44.359
<v Speaker 3>if Patten had sent the tanks this way or that way,

0:38:44.400 --> 0:38:47.120
<v Speaker 3>or what if so and so, you know never wrote

0:38:47.160 --> 0:38:52.480
<v Speaker 3>this book, and then there's sort of this hypothetical.

0:38:52.200 --> 0:38:53.680
<v Speaker 2>I think that's occurring in your mind.

0:38:54.800 --> 0:38:57.160
<v Speaker 3>Oh no, I think this is I think there's all

0:38:57.280 --> 0:38:59.880
<v Speaker 3>kinds of like TV show. I feel like this account

0:39:00.040 --> 0:39:03.080
<v Speaker 3>manterfactual as calls yeah, counterfactual. Yeah, Like there are all

0:39:03.120 --> 0:39:05.440
<v Speaker 3>these questions of like counterfactuals in history, and in this

0:39:05.600 --> 0:39:09.279
<v Speaker 3>case you highlight that what if Lewis and Clark never

0:39:09.360 --> 0:39:13.719
<v Speaker 3>made it to the Pacific, you have sort of the

0:39:13.840 --> 0:39:18.560
<v Speaker 3>actual counterfactual here that suggests that probably things would have

0:39:18.600 --> 0:39:20.759
<v Speaker 3>been folded very similarly to the way in which they

0:39:20.840 --> 0:39:23.520
<v Speaker 3>did with the success of the Lewis and Clark expedition.

0:39:23.640 --> 0:39:26.320
<v Speaker 3>And so I think that's one of the really interesting

0:39:26.360 --> 0:39:31.880
<v Speaker 3>aspects of this story. You often, I think when I

0:39:32.200 --> 0:39:34.520
<v Speaker 3>when I read about the Lewis and Clark expedition, you

0:39:34.600 --> 0:39:38.160
<v Speaker 3>read about sort of all the natural science that they

0:39:38.480 --> 0:39:42.000
<v Speaker 3>brought back, and you read about sort of the Lewis

0:39:42.040 --> 0:39:45.240
<v Speaker 3>and Clark as ethnographers, and Lewis and Clark in terms

0:39:45.280 --> 0:39:49.880
<v Speaker 3>of adding to our knowledge of this place. But you

0:39:50.200 --> 0:39:53.160
<v Speaker 3>here able to answer question of what is the actual

0:39:54.880 --> 0:39:57.680
<v Speaker 3>significance in terms of territorial expansion.

0:39:58.760 --> 0:40:01.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I think know at least if the Freeman

0:40:01.719 --> 0:40:07.720
<v Speaker 1>and Custis expedition is indicative if the Spaniards and they tried,

0:40:07.800 --> 0:40:10.480
<v Speaker 1>by the way, they sent two expeditions up to the

0:40:10.520 --> 0:40:12.560
<v Speaker 1>Missouri River to try to find Lewis and Clark, but

0:40:12.640 --> 0:40:15.200
<v Speaker 1>they it's just too big a country. They couldn't find

0:40:15.239 --> 0:40:19.360
<v Speaker 1>them that if they had managed to stop them and

0:40:19.480 --> 0:40:22.040
<v Speaker 1>turn them around, and had Lewis and I've had, you know,

0:40:22.480 --> 0:40:24.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean, there are a lot of uh Marriwether Lewis's

0:40:24.880 --> 0:40:26.759
<v Speaker 1>an American hero. He would have never stopped for a

0:40:26.800 --> 0:40:30.520
<v Speaker 1>bunch of Spaniards. He would have just plowed right on.

0:40:32.680 --> 0:40:36.040
<v Speaker 1>He would have never stopped. But had they been stopped,

0:40:36.760 --> 0:40:40.760
<v Speaker 1>I think, judging by the Freeman and Custis expedition, things

0:40:41.160 --> 0:40:43.640
<v Speaker 1>probably would have been folded in the Northwest pretty much

0:40:44.239 --> 0:40:47.279
<v Speaker 1>as they did anyway. But you know, as I was

0:40:47.400 --> 0:40:50.719
<v Speaker 1>trying to point out what we would lose though, is

0:40:50.920 --> 0:40:56.279
<v Speaker 1>that incredible description of the early American West that those

0:40:56.360 --> 0:40:59.840
<v Speaker 1>guys did, and that you know, nobody wants to sacrifice.

0:41:00.400 --> 0:41:03.759
<v Speaker 1>To me, that's the real contribution that those guys made.

0:41:04.120 --> 0:41:06.239
<v Speaker 1>I don't think they you know, they didn't find the

0:41:06.320 --> 0:41:09.439
<v Speaker 1>Northwest Passage for sure. I mean, they tried to cross

0:41:09.480 --> 0:41:11.320
<v Speaker 1>the bitter Root Mountains and think that was going to

0:41:11.400 --> 0:41:13.640
<v Speaker 1>lead them to the Northwest Passage, you know, and it

0:41:13.760 --> 0:41:16.160
<v Speaker 1>didn't didn't do it at all. I mean, there's not

0:41:16.280 --> 0:41:20.160
<v Speaker 1>even a Northwest Passage kind of highway across the bitter

0:41:20.239 --> 0:41:23.120
<v Speaker 1>Root Mountains these days. So they didn't find that they

0:41:23.200 --> 0:41:26.240
<v Speaker 1>kind of actually failed in their ultimate goal of finding

0:41:26.280 --> 0:41:30.080
<v Speaker 1>a northwest passage. But and they didn't really you know,

0:41:30.760 --> 0:41:34.360
<v Speaker 1>their presence on the Pacific coast was important for that

0:41:34.480 --> 0:41:37.479
<v Speaker 1>winner of eighteen oh five, but eighteen oh five, eighteen

0:41:37.480 --> 0:41:42.040
<v Speaker 1>oh six, but you know, Astoria's Fort was probably more important.

0:41:42.560 --> 0:41:44.880
<v Speaker 1>And even that fort got taken away by the Brits

0:41:45.280 --> 0:41:48.719
<v Speaker 1>in the War of eighteen twelve. But it's it's those

0:41:49.000 --> 0:41:54.200
<v Speaker 1>journals and all that description of the landscape and the animals,

0:41:54.280 --> 0:41:57.400
<v Speaker 1>and the ethnographic stuff on the native people, you know,

0:41:57.520 --> 0:42:00.719
<v Speaker 1>however flawed. Sometimes it might have been Jesus Man. That

0:42:00.840 --> 0:42:04.680
<v Speaker 1>stuff nobody. I certainly don't want to ever lose that.

0:42:05.239 --> 0:42:06.840
<v Speaker 1>Lewis and Clark count count.

0:42:07.280 --> 0:42:09.920
<v Speaker 2>I want to hear more about the Big Raft, the

0:42:10.000 --> 0:42:12.879
<v Speaker 2>Great Raft, a thousand year old log jam.

0:42:13.120 --> 0:42:15.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the Great Raft is really interesting.

0:42:15.960 --> 0:42:17.200
<v Speaker 2>I presume it's not there anymore.

0:42:17.360 --> 0:42:19.400
<v Speaker 1>It's not there anymore, but it took the invention of

0:42:19.520 --> 0:42:22.480
<v Speaker 1>nitroglycerin in the eighteen seventies to remove it.

0:42:23.680 --> 0:42:24.840
<v Speaker 2>How many miles long was it?

0:42:25.200 --> 0:42:27.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, when it was finally removed, it was one hundred

0:42:27.960 --> 0:42:28.919
<v Speaker 1>and forty miles long.

0:42:29.120 --> 0:42:30.719
<v Speaker 2>I just want people to picture what we're talking about.

0:42:30.719 --> 0:42:33.759
<v Speaker 2>It like if if you've seen just like picture, you're

0:42:33.800 --> 0:42:37.000
<v Speaker 2>on a creek and you know, at the end of

0:42:37.040 --> 0:42:39.880
<v Speaker 2>spring runoff or whatever, and there's a bunch of logs

0:42:39.960 --> 0:42:43.360
<v Speaker 2>piled up like toothpicks or match sticks, all jumbled up,

0:42:44.640 --> 0:42:46.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, and there's usually that a be or cooler

0:42:46.400 --> 0:42:49.719
<v Speaker 2>in a bottle and someone's dog toy floating there because

0:42:49.719 --> 0:42:52.160
<v Speaker 2>it can't get by. But then the next year it

0:42:52.239 --> 0:42:55.040
<v Speaker 2>floods and washes it out, washes it out, and it's

0:42:55.200 --> 0:42:56.959
<v Speaker 2>you know, but you see them pop up and go away.

0:42:57.200 --> 0:43:00.800
<v Speaker 2>But the fact that one of those ad a thousand

0:43:00.880 --> 0:43:04.359
<v Speaker 2>years and accumulated over one hundred miles of logs, and yeah,

0:43:04.520 --> 0:43:07.880
<v Speaker 2>not only totally obstructed any kind of navigation.

0:43:07.600 --> 0:43:12.240
<v Speaker 1>Completely obstructed navigation, and not only that it was climbing

0:43:12.400 --> 0:43:16.359
<v Speaker 1>the river. It started out we think a thousand years ago,

0:43:16.880 --> 0:43:20.040
<v Speaker 1>down at the mouth of the Red River, and when

0:43:20.320 --> 0:43:23.120
<v Speaker 1>Freeman and Custis encountered it, they were like about two

0:43:23.239 --> 0:43:25.920
<v Speaker 1>hundred and fifty miles up the river. So it had

0:43:26.040 --> 0:43:30.239
<v Speaker 1>receded for two hundred and fifty miles up river as

0:43:30.360 --> 0:43:33.040
<v Speaker 1>the bottom end had rotted off and it had been

0:43:33.120 --> 0:43:35.800
<v Speaker 1>swept away by floods. But every time there was a

0:43:35.960 --> 0:43:39.520
<v Speaker 1>big freshet out on the plains, the upper end stacked

0:43:39.560 --> 0:43:42.719
<v Speaker 1>up again, and so it was just climbing the Red

0:43:42.840 --> 0:43:45.920
<v Speaker 1>River like a snake. And by the time of.

0:43:46.040 --> 0:43:48.480
<v Speaker 2>Year, that was a frustrated many a cat fisherman.

0:43:48.640 --> 0:43:54.400
<v Speaker 1>Ohnot of structure, though, it frustrated, you know, So on

0:43:54.480 --> 0:43:57.200
<v Speaker 1>the Missouri once we had steamboats, I mean you could

0:43:57.239 --> 0:43:59.479
<v Speaker 1>go up the Missouri and you could you know, you'd

0:43:59.520 --> 0:44:03.080
<v Speaker 1>haul back bison ropes, heavy stuff from the planes. But

0:44:03.400 --> 0:44:06.759
<v Speaker 1>on the Red River you could not navigate that thing

0:44:07.400 --> 0:44:09.120
<v Speaker 1>until the eighteen seventies and they.

0:44:09.120 --> 0:44:10.080
<v Speaker 2>Blasted it out of there.

0:44:10.160 --> 0:44:13.200
<v Speaker 1>They blasted it out. Our guy named Captain Henry Shreve

0:44:14.160 --> 0:44:18.160
<v Speaker 1>from the US Army Corps of Engineers used nitro glycerin.

0:44:18.239 --> 0:44:20.760
<v Speaker 1>It took him about ten years to blast.

0:44:20.760 --> 0:44:22.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's all I was gonna ask. So he didn't

0:44:22.480 --> 0:44:26.200
<v Speaker 2>find like some magical pinch point. No, you just kept

0:44:26.480 --> 0:44:26.799
<v Speaker 2>doing it.

0:44:26.880 --> 0:44:28.560
<v Speaker 1>Just kept blowing it out, doing it. I mean, I've

0:44:28.560 --> 0:44:32.839
<v Speaker 1>got photographs of it in that book. I mean, it's

0:44:32.960 --> 0:44:37.400
<v Speaker 1>kind of unbelievable. And people said, you could be walking

0:44:37.640 --> 0:44:42.000
<v Speaker 1>out on the ground what you thought was just the ground,

0:44:43.480 --> 0:44:47.240
<v Speaker 1>and you'd cock your ear and damn, there's water running

0:44:47.320 --> 0:44:51.120
<v Speaker 1>under my feet, and they would realize, shit, we're standing

0:44:51.239 --> 0:44:54.200
<v Speaker 1>on the great raft and underneath us the Red River

0:44:54.719 --> 0:44:57.280
<v Speaker 1>is flowing, but it's timber coming out of where ultimately

0:44:58.000 --> 0:45:02.200
<v Speaker 1>it's coming from, primarily the woods upstream on the Red River.

0:45:02.360 --> 0:45:05.080
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, so it's cottonwood logs. Yeah, some of my

0:45:05.200 --> 0:45:08.280
<v Speaker 2>mind I was picturing. Yeah, some of them were Jennifer

0:45:08.680 --> 0:45:11.640
<v Speaker 2>picturing like like a coniferous tree of some sort or

0:45:12.280 --> 0:45:12.680
<v Speaker 2>I got you.

0:45:12.920 --> 0:45:15.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there were there were. There was a big expanse

0:45:15.520 --> 0:45:20.240
<v Speaker 1>of junipers on the middle Red not rocky mountain junipers,

0:45:20.320 --> 0:45:23.000
<v Speaker 1>but there were Virginia junipers and they were really tall,

0:45:23.120 --> 0:45:23.560
<v Speaker 1>really big.

0:45:24.120 --> 0:45:26.480
<v Speaker 2>People compared it was mostly cottonwoods tipping into the river.

0:45:26.560 --> 0:45:28.839
<v Speaker 1>It was mostly cotton woods. And of course cottonwoods that's

0:45:28.880 --> 0:45:31.719
<v Speaker 1>why it would rot away, is because you know, they're

0:45:31.880 --> 0:45:37.200
<v Speaker 1>soft and kind of easily damaged by water. And so yeah,

0:45:37.280 --> 0:45:39.640
<v Speaker 1>this thing was just climbing the river.

0:45:40.239 --> 0:45:44.360
<v Speaker 3>Were there are there oral traditions that I mean, it

0:45:44.400 --> 0:45:48.600
<v Speaker 3>seems like this sort of thing that's just so grand

0:45:48.760 --> 0:45:52.800
<v Speaker 3>and strange, and I wonder like if there if we

0:45:52.920 --> 0:45:56.200
<v Speaker 3>have any sort of sense of how native people in

0:45:56.280 --> 0:45:58.920
<v Speaker 3>that area described.

0:45:58.480 --> 0:46:03.560
<v Speaker 1>It, well, I don't have a good native account, but

0:46:04.040 --> 0:46:07.960
<v Speaker 1>I can tell you this. In two thousand and six,

0:46:08.160 --> 0:46:14.160
<v Speaker 1>the two hundredth anniversary of this expedition, Lsu Shreetport put

0:46:14.200 --> 0:46:19.280
<v Speaker 1>on a three day symposium celebrating the Freeman and Custis expedition.

0:46:19.640 --> 0:46:22.080
<v Speaker 1>And so they had me back there to do a

0:46:22.200 --> 0:46:25.200
<v Speaker 1>keynote and do various other things. And while I was there,

0:46:25.719 --> 0:46:28.239
<v Speaker 1>there was a group of Catto Indian guys and they

0:46:28.360 --> 0:46:32.920
<v Speaker 1>came up to me and they said, so, you know

0:46:33.120 --> 0:46:39.960
<v Speaker 1>where Chikhania is, don't you? And I said, yeah, I

0:46:40.080 --> 0:46:43.360
<v Speaker 1>do and Chakanie and I I mentioned in the podcast

0:46:43.719 --> 0:46:46.600
<v Speaker 1>that Freeman and Custis climbed this little small mountain in

0:46:46.719 --> 0:46:50.200
<v Speaker 1>southwestern Arkansas with their two guides and drank a bottle

0:46:50.239 --> 0:46:53.840
<v Speaker 1>of whiskey in order to converse with the Great Spirit.

0:46:54.719 --> 0:47:01.640
<v Speaker 1>And these Caddos who were removed from Louisiana by treaty

0:47:01.719 --> 0:47:05.160
<v Speaker 1>in eighteen thirty five and they were relocated to western

0:47:05.200 --> 0:47:10.919
<v Speaker 1>Oklahoma around a lot in Oklahoma, they had had kind

0:47:10.960 --> 0:47:15.600
<v Speaker 1>of oral traditions of this mountain that was supposed to

0:47:15.640 --> 0:47:20.840
<v Speaker 1>be part of their origin story, but they didn't know

0:47:20.880 --> 0:47:24.160
<v Speaker 1>where it was. And somebody told them, I don't know

0:47:24.200 --> 0:47:28.160
<v Speaker 1>if they told them at that conference or they already

0:47:28.200 --> 0:47:31.560
<v Speaker 1>knew about it when they came. But they came to

0:47:31.680 --> 0:47:34.200
<v Speaker 1>me and said, so, you know where Chickny and aias

0:47:34.719 --> 0:47:36.520
<v Speaker 1>And I said yeah, because I had gone up and

0:47:36.600 --> 0:47:39.480
<v Speaker 1>found it and climbed the mountain and you know, I

0:47:39.520 --> 0:47:41.319
<v Speaker 1>didn't drink a whole bottle of whiskey, but I drank

0:47:41.400 --> 0:47:46.279
<v Speaker 1>some whiskey up on top of it. And I said yeah.

0:47:46.520 --> 0:47:48.759
<v Speaker 1>And they said, well, can you show us where it is?

0:47:49.120 --> 0:47:51.640
<v Speaker 1>I said, well, absolutely, yeah, I can take you there.

0:47:52.080 --> 0:47:54.799
<v Speaker 1>So I took these four cattle guys, one of them

0:47:54.920 --> 0:47:57.560
<v Speaker 1>was really pretty old, he was in his eighties probably,

0:47:58.520 --> 0:48:02.040
<v Speaker 1>and went up to this mountain that was there as

0:48:02.120 --> 0:48:07.200
<v Speaker 1>part of their creation myth story. That was very cool.

0:48:08.760 --> 0:48:11.600
<v Speaker 1>I don't know who owned the hill. Uh, there were

0:48:11.840 --> 0:48:15.840
<v Speaker 1>there was nobody really living very close to it. And

0:48:16.239 --> 0:48:18.960
<v Speaker 1>so sort of like the way you and I did,

0:48:19.600 --> 0:48:22.440
<v Speaker 1>uh a blackwater draw A blackwater draw, we had a

0:48:22.480 --> 0:48:26.799
<v Speaker 1>self tour and I did a self guided tour up

0:48:26.800 --> 0:48:30.719
<v Speaker 1>on top of that. Now. Yeah, just climbed up there

0:48:31.200 --> 0:48:35.680
<v Speaker 1>and uh yeah. So these guys, uh And since then,

0:48:36.719 --> 0:48:39.280
<v Speaker 1>and this happened within the last year, I've had another

0:48:39.360 --> 0:48:42.400
<v Speaker 1>guy who tells me. He's a cat Oak historian, and

0:48:42.520 --> 0:48:45.040
<v Speaker 1>he's wanting me to show him where it is and

0:48:45.120 --> 0:48:47.000
<v Speaker 1>take him out there. Of course I don't ever really,

0:48:47.160 --> 0:48:50.600
<v Speaker 1>my parents are gone. I've got aunts and uncles and

0:48:50.640 --> 0:48:56.400
<v Speaker 1>things back in Louisiana. But yeah, so yeah, I actually

0:48:56.480 --> 0:48:58.719
<v Speaker 1>sent him a you know, I took a photograph of

0:48:58.800 --> 0:49:02.040
<v Speaker 1>a USGS seven point five quad and sent it to

0:49:02.200 --> 0:49:04.400
<v Speaker 1>him and showed him the road that went by, a

0:49:04.440 --> 0:49:07.000
<v Speaker 1>little dirt road two track that went by, and circle

0:49:07.040 --> 0:49:09.000
<v Speaker 1>it and said, this is where it is. That's right here.

0:49:09.600 --> 0:49:15.040
<v Speaker 2>So the expedition had they not been turned around, what

0:49:16.840 --> 0:49:18.680
<v Speaker 2>name brand features would they have?

0:49:19.440 --> 0:49:19.480
<v Speaker 1>Like?

0:49:19.560 --> 0:49:22.040
<v Speaker 2>What things that people today are? Where might they have been?

0:49:22.120 --> 0:49:24.560
<v Speaker 2>Like holy cologe of that? Like what would they run into?

0:49:24.840 --> 0:49:26.840
<v Speaker 1>Well, they would have. They would have been out on

0:49:27.640 --> 0:49:33.839
<v Speaker 1>the equivalent of the Mandan Lakota country farther south. I mean,

0:49:33.920 --> 0:49:35.720
<v Speaker 1>Lewis and Clark of course, get up to the Mandan

0:49:35.840 --> 0:49:40.640
<v Speaker 1>villages and they've already passed some Lakota bands, and then

0:49:40.680 --> 0:49:42.480
<v Speaker 1>they go from the Mandan villages to the Rockies and

0:49:42.480 --> 0:49:47.200
<v Speaker 1>they don't really see anybody, but they would less Freeman

0:49:47.200 --> 0:49:50.120
<v Speaker 1>Custis would have been amongst a similar group of people

0:49:50.880 --> 0:49:55.800
<v Speaker 1>farther south. But in this case it was Pawnees, a

0:49:55.920 --> 0:49:59.279
<v Speaker 1>group we call the Wichitas now, and they had It's

0:49:59.320 --> 0:50:01.759
<v Speaker 1>the same group, by the way, that Carnado when he

0:50:01.920 --> 0:50:05.279
<v Speaker 1>was going to Quavera, was trying to find. And when

0:50:05.320 --> 0:50:07.479
<v Speaker 1>Carnado went to try to find them, they were living

0:50:07.760 --> 0:50:10.239
<v Speaker 1>up on the Arkansas River, but they had moved down

0:50:10.280 --> 0:50:13.360
<v Speaker 1>to the Red River, I don't know, fifty or sixty

0:50:13.440 --> 0:50:16.520
<v Speaker 1>years before Freeman Incussus. And so that's where they were going,

0:50:16.840 --> 0:50:20.319
<v Speaker 1>and they were gonna leave their craft there, those seven

0:50:20.400 --> 0:50:23.359
<v Speaker 1>boats they had, and they were gonna purchase horses from

0:50:23.360 --> 0:50:26.400
<v Speaker 1>the Wichitas and head up the river. And as I

0:50:26.719 --> 0:50:29.360
<v Speaker 1>said when I was trying to describe how that river works,

0:50:29.800 --> 0:50:31.759
<v Speaker 1>you would reach a point maybe one hundred miles beyond

0:50:31.760 --> 0:50:34.320
<v Speaker 1>the Wichita villages, where it would fork, kind of like

0:50:34.400 --> 0:50:39.239
<v Speaker 1>a three forks thing, except depending on which way you went.

0:50:39.600 --> 0:50:43.320
<v Speaker 1>The right hand one would go through the Wichita Mountains

0:50:43.360 --> 0:50:47.040
<v Speaker 1>in the Quartz Mountains of southwestern Oklahoma, and it really

0:50:47.080 --> 0:50:49.400
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't go much farther than that. It wouldn't get you,

0:50:49.680 --> 0:50:53.360
<v Speaker 1>for example, to the front range of the Rockies. The

0:50:53.560 --> 0:50:57.320
<v Speaker 1>left fork, though, and this is the one that everybody

0:50:57.360 --> 0:50:59.279
<v Speaker 1>thought that's the one that's going to go to Santa Fe.

0:51:00.120 --> 0:51:05.360
<v Speaker 1>That fork would actually take you to the canyons of

0:51:05.520 --> 0:51:09.719
<v Speaker 1>the eastern escarpment of the Aano Estacata. And so in

0:51:09.840 --> 0:51:11.239
<v Speaker 1>the primary one is Paalo Duro.

0:51:11.320 --> 0:51:12.840
<v Speaker 2>Can they would have been in a commanche country.

0:51:12.920 --> 0:51:14.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they would have been in Commanchee country with the.

0:51:14.560 --> 0:51:17.200
<v Speaker 2>Commandche have demolished them.

0:51:17.440 --> 0:51:20.400
<v Speaker 1>You know, I don't think so. No, I don't think so.

0:51:20.560 --> 0:51:22.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean, at that time, it wouldn't have been hostile.

0:51:22.800 --> 0:51:27.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. The next episode I'm going to do is about

0:51:27.440 --> 0:51:32.000
<v Speaker 1>a guy, a trader named Anthony Glass who two years

0:51:32.080 --> 0:51:36.720
<v Speaker 1>after Freeman Custis are turned around the Jefferson Administration, Indian

0:51:36.760 --> 0:51:39.800
<v Speaker 1>Asia and Nacolas shown Sibley. They give this guy the

0:51:39.840 --> 0:51:43.960
<v Speaker 1>responsibility of going out and make the diplomatic arrangements with

0:51:44.040 --> 0:51:46.520
<v Speaker 1>the Wichitas and the command She take American flags out,

0:51:46.719 --> 0:51:49.279
<v Speaker 1>give them American flags, tell them they're now, you know,

0:51:49.480 --> 0:51:52.719
<v Speaker 1>part of the Great Father in Washington's tribes and we're

0:51:52.760 --> 0:51:54.960
<v Speaker 1>going to start trading with him and all that. And

0:51:55.680 --> 0:51:59.239
<v Speaker 1>that guy he was among the Wichitas and the Comanches

0:51:59.280 --> 0:52:03.320
<v Speaker 1>for about ten months and he didn't ever really experience

0:52:03.400 --> 0:52:06.520
<v Speaker 1>any kind of danger. And what it was, I think

0:52:06.719 --> 0:52:09.640
<v Speaker 1>is if you were a trader, if you had trade

0:52:09.680 --> 0:52:13.440
<v Speaker 1>goods and they were, they were a okay with you.

0:52:14.520 --> 0:52:17.960
<v Speaker 1>And Glass of course took trade goods out with him,

0:52:18.040 --> 0:52:21.280
<v Speaker 1>so I don't think the Comanches would have screwed around

0:52:21.280 --> 0:52:23.560
<v Speaker 1>with him. They didn't screw around with the Long Expedition

0:52:24.320 --> 0:52:28.759
<v Speaker 1>fifteen years later. They just let them go through. They

0:52:28.800 --> 0:52:33.080
<v Speaker 1>didn't really have any reason yet, I think to be

0:52:33.200 --> 0:52:35.400
<v Speaker 1>hostile and who they became who the Commanches became hostile

0:52:35.440 --> 0:52:38.719
<v Speaker 1>towards by the eighteen forties, eighteen fifties, eighteen sixties was

0:52:38.760 --> 0:52:44.719
<v Speaker 1>the Texans, and they distinguished between Texans and Americans. Yeah.

0:52:44.960 --> 0:52:49.640
<v Speaker 2>Well, I look forward to that episode coming up. Man,

0:52:49.680 --> 0:52:50.319
<v Speaker 2>that's gonna be great.

0:52:50.560 --> 0:52:52.959
<v Speaker 1>It'll be fun because there's a it's got a little

0:52:53.280 --> 0:52:55.320
<v Speaker 1>Oh Henry twist to it. Think you

0:53:02.320 --> 0:53:06.439
<v Speaker 2>To the game when Moses the vis