1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: When Thomas Jefferson acquired the eight hundred million acre Louisiana purchase, 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:10,039 Speaker 1: he launched a second major exploring expedition into the West, 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: one with an entirely different outcome than Lewis and Clark's, 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: an outcome that shines a new light on what Lewis 5 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: and Clark's journey really meant for America. I'm Dan Flory's 6 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: and this is the American West, brought to you by 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: Velvet Buck. Still in barrel, Velvet Buck arrives this summer 8 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 1: just in time for the season that calls us home. 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: A portion of every bottle supports backcountry hunters and anglers 10 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: to protect public lands, waters and wildlife enjoy responsibly. Jefferson's 11 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: other Lewis and Clark. On a gray Tuesday in November 12 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: of the year eighteen oh five, with a chill wind 13 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: scattering autumn leaves into the puddles of Washington's muddy streets, 14 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,559 Speaker 1: White House staff admitted a caller for a private dinner 15 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:24,559 Speaker 1: with the President of the United States that November evening. 16 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: Thomas Freeman must have felt his future was made. Thomas 17 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: Jefferson was about to offer him a plum appointment. The 18 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: leadership of one of his prized explorations into the Louisiana purchase, 19 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: one of the most fascinating parts of the globe for 20 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: scientific study. With Meriwether Lewis and his party already on 21 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: the shores of the Pacific, Jefferson was turning to Freeman, 22 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: a civilian astronomer who'd immigrated from Ireland, to lead an 23 00:01:55,400 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: exploring party into southwestern America. Jefferson and call this new 24 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: probe the Grand Expedition, and he was aiming it at 25 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: the Red River of the South, which natural history titan 26 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: Alexander von Humboldt had assured the President would take American 27 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: explorers into vast deserts and the southerly ranges of the 28 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: Shining Mountains. Along with Humboldt, Jefferson had canvass a number 29 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: of scientists who'd been gathering information about the Southwest, and 30 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: he was fascinated. The young United States had geopolitical reasons 31 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: for exploring Louisiana, but at heart, Jefferson was a naturalist 32 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: who dug fossils and written his own book about Virginia. 33 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: His informants about the Southwest told him wonderful stories about 34 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: volcanoes and tigers and herds, of wild horses, among innumerable 35 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: buffalo and wolves. He knew that camels, what he called 36 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: the yama or paca of Peru, still existed in similar 37 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: country in South America, and since there was already evidence 38 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: of elephants in America by then Charles Wilson Peel had laboriously, 39 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: if badly, reassembled the skeleton of one for his museum 40 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 1: in Philadelphia, elephants might still be in the West. Two 41 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: Meriwether Lewis had shipped enough reports and specimens back from 42 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,399 Speaker 1: the Missouri River that science was already buzzing about animals 43 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: and birds never seen in the Eastern States, and Jefferson's 44 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: hope was that America's most famous naturalist, William Bartram, would 45 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: accompany Freeman into the Southwest. Bartram was in his late sixties, though, 46 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: so instead promoted Alexander Wilson, soon to be America's first 47 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: great bird painter, as Freeman's naturalist. Jefferson instead chose a 48 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: young Virginian whose family he knew well. Thus did a 49 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: University of Pennsylvania medical student named Peter Custis become the 50 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: first scientist trained in an American university to when a 51 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: posting as a naturalist to the west. Congress had come 52 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: up with twice the funding for this expedition, as it 53 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: had for Lewis and Clark. So when his private dinner 54 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: with the President concluded, Thomas Freeman stepped into the Washington 55 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: Knight holding seven pages of exploring instructions written in Jefferson's 56 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: clear handwriting. He knew, he wrote, a friend, the hazards 57 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: of travel in the neighborhood of Santa Fe. A great 58 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: many difficulties, in some personal danger will attend the expedition, 59 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: but I will stick or go through the more danger, 60 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: the more honor. Jefferson's instructions, which Freeman must have scanned repeatedly, 61 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: still exists in the Library of Congress. They include intriguing 62 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 1: directions that also appeared in the exploring instructions the President 63 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: had given Meriwether Lewis. The following objects in the country 64 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: adjacent to the rivers along which you will pass will 65 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: be worthy of notice. The animals of the country generally, 66 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 1: and especially those not known in the maritime states. And 67 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: the remains and accounts of any which may be deemed extinct. 68 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: The western half of North America then was the country, 69 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: and the eighteen hundreds was the century that ultimately answered 70 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 1: many fundamental questions about America's destiny. With the Louisiana purchase, 71 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: Jefferson's administration had affected a continental future for the US, 72 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: Like a stone rolling down a mountain. The US in 73 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds would claim and buy and seize much 74 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: more of the continent. Eventually, everything from southwestern deserts to 75 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: Alaska on tundra what had been and could have remained 76 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: Native America or French, British or Mexican territory over the 77 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: next sixty years would become part of the US. Thus 78 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: did the West become ours? There was that intriguing final 79 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: line in Jefferson's Natural History Instructions too, about one of 80 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:09,119 Speaker 1: the grand scientific questions of the age, was extinction real? 81 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: Were camels and elephants still out there? Or had they, somehow, 82 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: for some unknown reason, vanished from America? Could living creatures 83 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: really entirely disappear on a planet Christianity had long believed 84 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: was designed as perfection by a creator. How could species 85 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,239 Speaker 1: God had placed on Earth vanish, leaving us with only 86 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: their enigmatic bones and skeletons. These questions, and many others, 87 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: were why Jefferson aimed a second major exploring expedition at 88 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: the West. It's a foregone conclusion that everyone listening to 89 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: this has long known about Lewis and Clark, America's most 90 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: famous explorers. I would wague that the chances are almost 91 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: non existent, though, that you've ever heard of Thomas Freeman 92 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: or doctor Peter Custis own about an eighteen oh six 93 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: American probe into the West that was known as the 94 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: Grand Expedition. Yet two centuries and two decades ago, a 95 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: party of superbly equipped American explorers was working its way 96 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: up the Red River of Louisiana, Arkansas, Texas, and Oklahoma, 97 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: painstakingly mapping the country, holding councils with all the local tribes, 98 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: and making collections of plants, wildlife, and geology. Both President 99 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: Jefferson and the party's leaders thought of this as the 100 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: Southwestern counterpart to the Lewis and Clark Party, which in 101 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: that same summer was returning from a successful exploration across 102 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: darkest North America to the Pacific by intent. Freeman, an engineer, surveyor, 103 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: and cartographer, and Custis, a student of Benjamin Smith Barton 104 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: in America's best university at the time, should today be 105 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: as famous as any historical figures who aren't President Sir 106 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: Jeah Generals, Jefferson had picked them the lead a scientific 107 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: reconnaissance across the Great Plains to the Rockies as far 108 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: as legendary Santa Fe. We ought to have heard about 109 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: them in junior high school social studies the way we 110 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: hear about Neil Armstrong's one giant Leap for mankind on 111 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:20,239 Speaker 1: the Moon, but then once so wrong with Jefferson's second 112 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: expedition to the West that it's now invisible in American history. 113 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: In a master plan Jefferson had set down in eighteen 114 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: o three, America's third president, had outlined four major expeditions 115 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: he hoped to send into the New Louisiana Purchase. In 116 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: a precient prediction of the future destiny of the US, 117 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: Jefferson believed an expedition into the southern parts of the Purchase, 118 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: aimed at what we today called the Southwest, was almost 119 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: as critical as having Lewis and Clark search for the 120 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: Northwest Passage. Fundamentally, American exploring parties in the West would 121 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: establish a national presence on North American geography that Jefferson 122 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: hoped both European powers and Native people would acknowledge, and 123 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: as with his questions about extinction, Western exploration represented the 124 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: Jefferson administration's official support of cutting edge science. What was 125 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: out there? What new wonders existed on this last continent 126 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: that humans had found on Earth? But Lewis and Clark 127 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: would leave those questions unanswered for an enormous stretch of 128 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: the Louisiana purchase. So, in an exchange of letters with 129 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: Meriwether Lewis in eighteen oh three, Jefferson had told Lewis 130 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: that the object of your mission is single, the direct 131 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: water communication from sea to sea. I will also send 132 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: a party up the Red River to its head, then 133 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: cross over to the head of the Arkansas and come down. 134 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: That this will be attempted distinctly from your mission. So 135 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: what's Lewis and Clark underway? In eighteen oh four, Jefferson 136 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: devoted the time he had for expiation to two years 137 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: of detailed planning and a budget of five thousand dollars 138 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,839 Speaker 1: from Congress to send his next grand expedition into the 139 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: heart of the West. The problems for this second expedition began, though, 140 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: with the choice of rivers. Jefferson told a friend that 141 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: he regarded the Red River of the South as next 142 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: to the Missouri, the most interesting water of the Mississippi. 143 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: But unfortunately he was smitten by the Red in part 144 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: because he misunderstood it. Soon after his purchase of the 145 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 1: Louisiana territory, Jefferson had made known his belief that its 146 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: proper southern boundary was actually the Rio grand River. That 147 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: startling claim meant that the upstart United States believed it 148 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 1: now possessed not merely the French colonies in Louisiana and Missouri, 149 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: but also Texas and New Mexico, where Spain had settlements 150 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: that dated back to the early sixteen hundreds. Spain's diplomat 151 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: to the US responded that this was absurd reasoning, but 152 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 1: Jefferson had alarmed Spain, which was already struggling to hold 153 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: on to its American colonies. The Spanish monarchy was highly 154 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: suspicious of America's claim that, as a democratic republic, it 155 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 1: represented the future for North America. Jefferson's claims unnecessarily rile Spain, 156 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: and unfortunately, his attempts to regroup and turn the Red River, 157 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,959 Speaker 1: where he was able to document far more French activity 158 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: than on the Rio Grande, into a compromise boundary failed 159 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: to appease the Spanish government. But in the world of 160 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: the Southwest and its geography, how feasible was an expiration 161 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: up the Red River and then down the Arkansas. Anyway? 162 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,439 Speaker 1: The essential first question of this pairing was where would 163 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:08,559 Speaker 1: the Red River lead American explorers. Jefferson assumed that major 164 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: rivers had in mountain ranges, and that, given its lower 165 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: course and size, the Red must have its origins somewhere 166 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: in the southern ranges of the Shining Mountains, near the 167 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: tantalizing destination of Santa Fe. That assumption appeared to be 168 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: corroborated by recent maps, particularly a brand new one drawn 169 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: by the famous Prussian naturalists himself Alexander von Humboldt, and 170 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: based on his map work in Mexico City's archives. Humboldt 171 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: knew that Lower Louisiana was bisected north and south by 172 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: a river the French called River Rouge that flowed from 173 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: the west, and he knew that from the high Rockies 174 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:53,599 Speaker 1: near Santa Fe, a reddish river flowed eastward. Surely, the 175 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: river the Spaniards saw, and one thousand miles later Fritchman saw, 176 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: was the same one the Americans who are now calling 177 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: the Red so that's how Humboldt drew it. Just as 178 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark were to open an economic route up 179 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: the Missouri to the northwest, the Red appeared poised to 180 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: do the same with a proto Santa Fe trailed trade 181 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: route between Louisiana and New Mexico. If in fact, the 182 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: Southern Rockies was where the Red River headed. Jefferson issued 183 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: a call to the American scientific community for more information 184 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: about the Southwest, and he got it. A New York 185 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: nationalist named Samuel Mitchell told the President the Red was 186 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: supposed to be navigable for one thousand miles above the 187 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: last French town on it century old Nakanish, and that 188 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: it penetrated a country of immense prairies with alligators, buffalo tigers, wolves, 189 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: and innumerable herds of wild horses. The Scottish expatriate scientist 190 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: Sir William Dunbar wrote of the Redd's long course and 191 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 1: its sources in what he called salt Mountains. Dunbar dangled 192 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: wonderful stories of wonderful productions, including possibly unicorns on the 193 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,119 Speaker 1: southern prairie, and in the wake of a recent mastodon 194 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: skeleton excavation in Kentucky. Giant water serpents too, he thought 195 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: might be in the Southwest. Dunbar also reported vague stories 196 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: of masses of metal venerated by the Indians and assumed 197 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: to be silver ore, and more of those. In the 198 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: next episode from his Indian agent in Nacrish, doctor John Sibley, 199 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: Jefferson learned one other critical bit of information. As the 200 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: gateway to New Mexico, the Upper Red, was controlled by 201 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: the horticultural Pawnees, actually the Wichitas as we know them today, 202 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: under their forceful leader Awahakai, and a buffalo hunting people 203 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: sibly referred to as the Aton, who we now know 204 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: as the Comanches. These Indians, who had fond memories of 205 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: the days when Spanish and French traders had competed for 206 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: their friendship, were openly expressing interest in the Americans. That 207 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: was music to Jefferson's ears. While the natural history particulars 208 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: the President was hearing were vaguely real, the geography, unfortunately, 209 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: was not. There were those who knew the truth about 210 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: the Red even this early in the seventeen eighties and 211 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: seventeen nineties. The Spanish government had dispatched French and Spanish 212 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: explorers to link the towns of Saint Louis, Nacotish, and 213 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: San Antonio with distant Santa Fe. Some of them traveled 214 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: the Red River, and they knew it did not lead 215 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: them to Santa Fe. But what had caught the attention 216 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: of Spanish officials was acclaimed by one of them, Pierre Vial, 217 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: in seventeen ninety three, that it was possible to journey 218 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: from Saint Louis to Santa Fe in little more than 219 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: three weeks. The revolutionary Americans were that close. That was 220 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: far too close. Among Jefferson's informants, there was one who 221 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: gave the President accurate information about his choice of a river. 222 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: A scheming and controversial general named James Wilkinson presented the 223 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: President with a twenty two page letter about the Southwest, 224 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: designed to excite the presidential eye. As Wilkinson put it, 225 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: among the various details about the natural history of this 226 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: wonderful country, there was actually an accurate description of the 227 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: Upper Red River, one almost certainly based on the travels 228 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: of a young American horse trader named Philip Nolan, a 229 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: man worthy of a fuller treatment in a later episode 230 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: of this podcast above the Wichita villages. The Red River Fort. 231 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: The right hand fort flowed through a mountain ridge to 232 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: the west, but the left hand for which was the longer, 233 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: spilled off an open plain, Wilkinson said, so extensive as 234 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 1: to require the Indians four days in crossing it. Beyond 235 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 1: that high plain there was a river running south, and 236 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: beyond that very high mountains disappearing into northern distances. Had 237 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: the Americans understood this description, which accurately portrayed the headwaters 238 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: of the Red River in Great Canyons eroded into the 239 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: Yano Wes Tocado or the Stake Plain, with the Pecos 240 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: River flowing south beyond that, and with the Rockies in 241 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: Santa Fe still many days to the northwest, they would 242 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: have understood that the Arkansas River, not the Red, was 243 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: the correct route to the Rockies. The Arkansas would also 244 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: have had the added benefit that the Missouri did for 245 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark. It would have gotten American explorers farther 246 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: away from Spanish forces sent out to stop the Americans 247 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: from examining the West. The truth was that Jefferson's insistence 248 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: on the Red for his second Big Western expedition was 249 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: ill start, and the result was that Freeman's and Custos's 250 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 1: chances at becoming American heroes like Lewis and Clark were 251 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: about to evaporate. The letter of exploring instructions Jefferson had 252 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: given him in November of eighteen oh four included a 253 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: line also in the Lewis and Clark letter that would 254 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: prove far more significant in the Southwest. If at any 255 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: time a superior force, authorized or not authorized by a 256 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: nation should be arrayed against your further passage and inflexibly 257 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: determined to arrest it, you must decline its further pursuit 258 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 1: and return. So Freeman, it turned out, would neither stick 259 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: nor go through. In fact, he was about to bounce 260 00:18:49,200 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: right out of American history, With both Spain and Native 261 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: peoples like the Osages making threatening noises about Americans penetrating 262 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 1: the Southwest. Jefferson personally selected Captain Richard Sparks, familiar to 263 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: him via Lewis, as one of the best woodsman, bushfighters 264 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: and hunters in the army, to head a military contingent 265 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: to accompany the two scientific leaders. Now in the spring 266 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: of eighteen oh six, all was haste in procuring French 267 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: and Native guides and laying in supplies so that the 268 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: Grand Expeditions specially designed barges could take them up river 269 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: as far as the Wichitaa villages, whence they planned to 270 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 1: explore westward by horseback. Freeman directed the purchase of a 271 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: camera obscura to produce topographic images, a high quality chronometer 272 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: for fixing longitudes, and a portable barometer for taking elevations, 273 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: along with an acrochromatic telescope to help fix latitudes by 274 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: observing the eclipses of Jupiter's moons. Custus brought a shotgun, 275 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: plant presses, and various traps and preservation equipment, plus a 276 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: library of natural history reference volumes. By mid April of 277 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,360 Speaker 1: eighteen oh six, the bulk of the exploring party had 278 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: assembled in Natchez, Mississippi, where they conducted a last round 279 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: of outfitting. Sparks selected two non commissioned officers and seventeen 280 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: privates for their general good health and robust temperaments. As 281 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: with Lewis and Clark, there was an African American member 282 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 1: of the expedition who may have arrived with Peter Custis. 283 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: Unlike York, we don't know his name. This party entered 284 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: the mouth of the Red River on May the first, 285 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: anticipating a year long probe taking them some thirteen hundred 286 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: river miles into the western interior. But despite their high spirits, 287 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: they couldn't miss the warning signs on the Spanish border. 288 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: As Custius would confide in his journal, this expedition seems 289 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: to have thrown their whole country in the commotion because 290 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: the Red River was got nearly so distant from Spanish 291 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 1: power as the Missouri Madrid got active in a hurry, 292 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: it quickly dispatched not one but two bodies of troops 293 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 1: to intercept Freeman and Cussis. One with two hundred cavalry, 294 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,640 Speaker 1: commanded by Captain Francisco Vianna, left Nacadochus in East Texas 295 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: to confront the Americans on the Lower River. The other, 296 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: which Zebulun Pike, who mistakenly thought he was its target, 297 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: described as the most important expedition ever sent out from 298 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: the province of New Mexico, was the Insurance Policy, commanded 299 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: by Lieutenant Ficundo Melgari's. It left Santa Fe bound for 300 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: the Red in early June of eighteen oh six, With 301 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: that time and the summer of eighteen oh six merely 302 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: waited out the geopolitical rendezvous. When Jefferson's explorers arrived in Nacotash, 303 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: the last American outposts on the Red, and heard of 304 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: the ominous Spanish troop movements, the two questions they must 305 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: have been asking themselves were how far are we going 306 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: to get? And will I live through this? Nonetheless, this 307 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 1: was the President's own mission. Now brought up to fifty 308 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 1: men with French and two Indian guides and a total 309 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: of seven craft, making it the largest American exploring party 310 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: of the age. Freeman's stick or go through aphorism was 311 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: about to be tested. Confronting only nature, the aphorism worked. 312 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: In the course of their five month exploration, the party 313 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: would confront many remarkable phenomena of the Red Rivers in 314 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 1: natural ecology. One of those was the Great Raft, a 315 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: thousand year old logjam that entirely blocked the river for 316 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: more than one hundred miles. To get their boats around 317 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,719 Speaker 1: this massive obstacle, they had to detour through a swamp 318 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 1: land that likely rivaled today's ok Finoki Swamp. For naturalist custos, 319 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: the Great Swamp was a botanical treasure. For everyone else, 320 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 1: it was pure misery. Fourteen days of incep sent fatigue, 321 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: toil and danger, doubt and uncertainty, as Freeman put it. 322 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 1: Beyond the route, Freeman got a first opportunity to try 323 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: out his diplomatic skills on the Indians, whose country they 324 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: now entered, an ancient but reduced population of mound builders, 325 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 1: the Catto Confederacy. For two weeks the Americans treated with 326 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 1: de Heehuitt, hereditary chief of the Caddos, to whom Freeman 327 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: presented US flags and solicited Catto endorsement of the exploration. 328 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: Custus meanwhile observed and wrote of Catto and customs and skills. 329 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: Their talents with the bow, he said, put him in 330 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: mind of stories from the Iliad, and he posted a 331 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: twenty six specimen botanical collection downriver for Custis. The beautiful 332 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: Red River Valley seemed the paradise of America, as he 333 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: called it. The naturalists Eden Jefferson and Promise the image 334 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: of Freeman and Custus ill starred as they were that 335 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: I savor Is, then proceeding upriver in July of eighteen 336 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: oh six, busily studying the river valley, made aware by 337 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: the Caddos that a Spanish force four times their number 338 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: was shadowing them in the undulating hills to the west. 339 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: Guided by the Caddos, cut Finger and grand Ose Ages, 340 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: the party engaged in a series of minor adventures, at 341 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: one point ascending a small mountain prominent in the Caddo 342 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 1: creation myth and consuming a bottle of whiskey with their guides. 343 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: By the twenty second of July, they had rounded the 344 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: Great Band of the Red near present Texarkana and were 345 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: heading due west. On July the twenty seventh, the Caddoes 346 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 1: told them that they had reached the former location of 347 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 1: Bnard de la Harp's early eighteenth century trading post that 348 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: had been the most westerly French settlement on the Red River, 349 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: beyond which Spain now insisted that the southwest belonged to 350 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: their monarchy. There was another alarming development too. After ascending 351 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: the river for two weeks without a thunderstorm, the water 352 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: in the Red was dropping fast. Still two to three 353 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: weeks from the Wichital villages, and whatever horses they could 354 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: purchase with their flags and gifts, the explorers were having 355 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: to drag their barges, their hulls grinding on channel gravel 356 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: up the river. As for the movements of the Spanish 357 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: troops sent to oppose them, they were direct and purposeful. 358 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: After angrily cutting down the American flag he found flying 359 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: into heehus Cadat village, Captain Vianna had marched his force 360 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: north to the Red taking a position on a bluff 361 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: that's been known ever since as Spanish Bluff, near the 362 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 1: present boundary between Oklahoma and Arkansas, sending a post to 363 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: his superior saying that he knew the irremedial damage that 364 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: would result to this province if the Union is accomplished 365 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: of the expedition of the United States with the faceless 366 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: Wichitaal Indians and the Comanches. Vianna wrote that he would 367 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: confront the Americans above the old French posts, as this 368 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: territory is ours. Lacking a successful exploration, Freeman very well 369 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: might have ensured his name in American history had he 370 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 1: opted for armed conflict, but there was no violent encounter. 371 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: When the Americans rounded a bend in the river and 372 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: faced a Spanish force four times their size arrayed across it, 373 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: Vianna politely but firmly refused to allow the Americans to pass, 374 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: and Freeman, with Jefferson's instructions in hand, if at any 375 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: time a superior force, authorized or not authorized by a nation, 376 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: should be arrayed against your further passage and inflexibly determined 377 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: to arrest it, you must decline its further pursuit. In return, 378 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: he made the mature decision the confrontation called for. The 379 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: date was July thirtieth, eighteen oh six. They had ascended 380 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 1: the Red River, six hundred and fifteen miles to the 381 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: edge of the black Land Prairies and the Great Plains, 382 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: but still only halfway to the Great Mystery of the 383 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 1: Red Sources. So Freeman agreed to turn back rather than 384 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: proceeding on. As Lewis and Clark often began their journal entries, 385 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: the Grand Expedition turned around in a young country like 386 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: the US, anxious about its reputation and longing for heroes 387 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: to celebrate. Thomas Freeman and Peter Custis and their mates, 388 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: on a presidentially authorized attempt to explore the West, return 389 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 1: to a country that quickly turned away and forgot them. 390 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: For a total expenditure at last of eighty seven hundred dollars, 391 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: Jefferson had launched an expedition that another power had forced 392 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: to retreat. Peter Custis's natural history work on the red 393 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: was highly intriguing. He had cataloged twenty two mammals, thirty 394 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: six birds, seventeen reptiles, fishes and amphibians, fifty eight trees, 395 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: and one hundred and thirty flowering plants, twenty six of 396 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: which he collected for the Academy of Natural Sciences of Philadelphia. 397 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: The meager geographic results meant that everyone involved understood, having 398 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: failed to penetrate the great planes and reached the rockies 399 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: in Santa Fe, the expedition was a failure. There was 400 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: just no other way to spend it. The President's public 401 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: reaction was clear enough. He preferred to concentrate on the 402 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 1: triumphant return of Lewis and Clark and to say as 403 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: little as possible about his second expedition. There are historians, 404 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: in fact, who have called this expedition a headstrong decision 405 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: that put in danger the lives of Americans pursuing an 406 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: impossible goal, and it does appear that Jefferson's own stubbornness embarrassing. 407 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: There was also an undercut of public suspicion. At least 408 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: one prominent newspaper would editorialize that the ferment with Spain 409 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: in eighteen oh six was not caused by Aaron Burr's 410 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: plot to invade the Southwest, as newspapers favorable to Jefferson's 411 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: administration tried to spin it, But by Jefferson's secret expeditions, 412 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: secret orders, and secret plans of exploration. The fate of 413 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: Freeman and Custis does beg another question, what if the 414 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: Spaniards who sent out two different expeditions to find Lewis 415 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: and Clark had also succeeded and blocked them. I suspect 416 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: the Freeman and Custis expedition provides us with an answer. 417 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: What happened to their expedition? Seems to argue that America's 418 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: destiny in the West didn't truly rest on successful Jeffersonian exploration. 419 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: Despite their failures, US traders carrying American goods and even 420 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: US flags still traveled among the Indians of the Southwest 421 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: in the years following, and more of this in the 422 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: next episode. By eighteen nineteen, the Red River to the 423 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: hundredth Parallel did finally become the boundary between Spain and 424 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: the US, and Mexico did revolt successfully against Spain to 425 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: create its own democratic republic. In eighteen twenty one. American 426 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: expansionist policies in the three decades after Jefferson still brought Texas, 427 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: New Mexico, and the far Southwest into the American orbit. 428 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: Had Spain similarly intercepted Lewis and Clark, The analogy provided 429 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: by Freeman and Custis argues that even without their expedition, 430 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: the history of the Northwest likely would have turned out 431 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: just about the same as it did. In the big picture, 432 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: other currents of nineteenth century history were more powerful than 433 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: Jeffersonian explorers. So remove Lewis and Clark from the American 434 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: story just as the Spanish force removed Freeman in Custice, 435 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: and probably not much would have changed geopolitically. But I 436 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: should emphasize geopolitically, a successful Lewis and Clark expedition was 437 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: a truly important historical event for America. What we would 438 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: have lost without Lewis and Clark in our history then 439 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: and now is our awestruck reaction towards New worlds. Lewis 440 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: and Clark gave us a carefully recorded ultimate camping trip 441 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: in a dream world that lay at the end of 442 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: sixty thousand years of human trekking out of Africa and 443 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: around the Earth. Behind us lay our footprints in the 444 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: American West of eighteen oh four to eighteen oh six. 445 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: We got one last glimpse, through Lewis and Clark of 446 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: what the whole earth had been in the deep past, 447 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: as our robot rovers tremble across Mars and send us 448 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: photographs that are analogues of their maps of America from 449 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: only two hundred years ago. We see expiration as a 450 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: specific American legacy, but that legacy is common to humanity everywhere. 451 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: Any human who doesn't live to see our footprints on 452 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: Mars is going to experience the kind of regret I 453 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: feel that Freeman and Custus didn't get to emulate Lewis 454 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: and Clark and explore the West, a regret that intrigued 455 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: me into once writing in a book I called Horizontal Yellow, 456 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: a little novella The River that Flowed from Nowhere that 457 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: imagines Freeman and Custis continuing up the Red River into 458 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: a Southwest beyond all of Thomas Jefferson's fantasies. 459 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 2: How did you How did you first become aware of 460 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 2: the Grand Expedition until I encountered it with you? 461 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: Yeah? Never heard of it? 462 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 2: Never heard of it? 463 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I don't think most people have ever 464 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: heard of it. I encountered it for a very simple reason. 465 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: I was getting a master's degree at Northwestern State in 466 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: Louisiana and there was an archivist there named Catherine Bridges, 467 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: and she was inquiring of me, So, what are you 468 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: interested in? What do you want to, you know, maybe 469 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: write a master's thesis about? And I said, well, you 470 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: know what I'm interested in. I mean, I'm interested in 471 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark in the fur trade, and you know, 472 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: all this kind of classic early Western stuff. And she 473 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: looked at me for a second and she said, so, 474 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you something I'm pretty sure you 475 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: don't know. 476 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 2: Stephen randaller a on it. 477 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: Stephen and Randall lead this expedition. 478 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 2: One day there will be born. 479 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, So she said, I'm going to tell you something 480 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: I bet you don't know. Thomas Jefferson sent a second 481 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: expedition out two years after Lewis and and he sent 482 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: it right up the Red River, and Red River flows 483 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: right through Nacolus, right through town. 484 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 2: Oh really, yes, yeah. And I grew up within about 485 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:12,240 Speaker 2: where you were at that moment. 486 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: Where I was that moment, that's where I was curious 487 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: about eight miles from there. 488 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 3: I was curious whether you'd gotten on this because it 489 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 3: was a local store, local. 490 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 2: Story, and you hadn't even heard of it. 491 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: No, I hadn't heard of it, nor had anybody else. 492 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: And I will say that now, back in northwestern Louisiana, 493 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, there are all kinds of people 494 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: who called me up and email me and text me 495 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 1: with these detailed questions, sort of like people do for 496 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark about this expedition. Because once people learned 497 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: about it back there, suddenly they were just all over it. 498 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 3: Oh do you think they saw this rock? Do you 499 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 3: think they camped under this big tree? 500 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: Well, I mean an archaeologist found a button from one 501 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 1: of the jackets at one of their camps about twenty 502 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: five years ago, and that was national news. By publication 503 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: of the book was not national news. The button from 504 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: the camp was national news. But anyway, I said, so, 505 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: you know, you've got to be kidding. She said, no, 506 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,359 Speaker 1: there's a there was an expedition. It went right through here. 507 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: It didn't ultimately, I said, well, so I farted they 508 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: get She said, well, they didn't get very far. They 509 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: got about six hundred and fifty seven hundred miles up 510 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: the Red River, and they got turned around by a 511 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: Spanish army. So that's why hardly anybody knows about it. 512 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 1: Because the United States was a young country, it was 513 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: looking for heroes to celebrate, didn't want to really celebrate, 514 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: you know. 515 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 2: Some group that chickens. 516 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, European country had sort of whisk back home. So 517 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: I said, well, is there any account of it? She said, yeah, 518 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: we've got a microfilm of it. And so what she 519 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: showed me was a microfilm of the official government report 520 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 1: of this expedition in eighteen oh seven, the year after 521 00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: the expedition took place, and that official government report was 522 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 1: written by somebody else. I finally discovered when I was 523 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,280 Speaker 1: doing the book. A guy named Nicholas King was hired 524 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: by the administration to redact their original journals into a 525 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: single account. And this guy, Nicholas King, he not only 526 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 1: redacted the journals into a single account, so you couldn't tell, 527 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: for example, whether it was Freeman talking or it was 528 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: Custos talking. He converted it into third person rather than 529 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 1: in the first person of their journals. And the final 530 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: thing he did is I started looking closely at it 531 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: I was gone, I mean, there's this all this rich 532 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: natural history in this expedition, and I start trying to 533 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: figure out, so what was this tree? Shit? I can't 534 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 1: find anything that looks like it's named that. And what 535 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,320 Speaker 1: I began to realize, and finally when I found the 536 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: original in the letters of the War Department where the 537 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 1: original accounts, journals and all were stored, and I found 538 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: the originals, I realized that this guy, Nicholas King, evidently 539 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: he couldn't read Peter Custis's handwriting, and so he just 540 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: destroyed all the Latin binomials of all the plants and 541 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: over and stuff. And so one of the things that 542 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: happened is the result of that is that Custice kind 543 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: of emerges from it with the American scientific community going, 544 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: what in the hell this guy? He's from the University 545 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania. He has said under Benjamins a bit of Barton, 546 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: and he doesn't know any of the scientific names of 547 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 1: the plants and animals. And in fact it was the 548 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,399 Speaker 1: guy who redacted it. So what I did, ultimately when 549 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 1: I wrote the book was I found the original accounts, 550 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: and that's what I ended up, you know, I mean, 551 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,240 Speaker 1: it's a big thing with the Lewis and Clark journals 552 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 1: that you published, the original journals of the account. So 553 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,319 Speaker 1: once I found Freeman and Custis's stuff, I was able 554 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: to put together a story of it where the proper 555 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: stuff was a tribute to each one of them, and 556 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: all the scientific nomenclature was correct. And so it turned 557 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: it suddenly into two hundred years later, two hundred frigging 558 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: years later, into a really worthwhile scientific expedition that just 559 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 1: got cut off before they really could quite get out 560 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: to the great planes and start seeing all that stuff 561 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 1: that Lewis and Clark saw, all those new animals. They 562 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 1: stopped just short of that by about two days. 563 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:36,720 Speaker 3: One of the things you see in especially popular history 564 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 3: is there's a tend towards these hypotheticals of like what 565 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,359 Speaker 3: if Patten had sent the tanks this way or that way, 566 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 3: or what if so and so, you know never wrote 567 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 3: this book, and then there's sort of this hypothetical. 568 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 2: I think that's occurring in your mind. 569 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 3: Oh no, I think this is I think there's all 570 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 3: kinds of like TV show. I feel like this account 571 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 3: manterfactual as calls yeah, counterfactual. Yeah, Like there are all 572 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 3: these questions of like counterfactuals in history, and in this 573 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 3: case you highlight that what if Lewis and Clark never 574 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 3: made it to the Pacific, you have sort of the 575 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 3: actual counterfactual here that suggests that probably things would have 576 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 3: been folded very similarly to the way in which they 577 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 3: did with the success of the Lewis and Clark expedition. 578 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,320 Speaker 3: And so I think that's one of the really interesting 579 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 3: aspects of this story. You often, I think when I 580 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 3: when I read about the Lewis and Clark expedition, you 581 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 3: read about sort of all the natural science that they 582 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 3: brought back, and you read about sort of the Lewis 583 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,240 Speaker 3: and Clark as ethnographers, and Lewis and Clark in terms 584 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,880 Speaker 3: of adding to our knowledge of this place. But you 585 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 3: here able to answer question of what is the actual 586 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 3: significance in terms of territorial expansion. 587 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think know at least if the Freeman 588 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:07,720 Speaker 1: and Custis expedition is indicative if the Spaniards and they tried, 589 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 1: by the way, they sent two expeditions up to the 590 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: Missouri River to try to find Lewis and Clark, but 591 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 1: they it's just too big a country. They couldn't find 592 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,360 Speaker 1: them that if they had managed to stop them and 593 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 1: turn them around, and had Lewis and I've had, you know, 594 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,880 Speaker 1: I mean, there are a lot of uh Marriwether Lewis's 595 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: an American hero. He would have never stopped for a 596 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: bunch of Spaniards. He would have just plowed right on. 597 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: He would have never stopped. But had they been stopped, 598 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,760 Speaker 1: I think, judging by the Freeman and Custis expedition, things 599 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: probably would have been folded in the Northwest pretty much 600 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: as they did anyway. But you know, as I was 601 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 1: trying to point out what we would lose though, is 602 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: that incredible description of the early American West that those 603 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 1: guys did, and that you know, nobody wants to sacrifice. 604 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 1: To me, that's the real contribution that those guys made. 605 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 1: I don't think they you know, they didn't find the 606 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,439 Speaker 1: Northwest Passage for sure. I mean, they tried to cross 607 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,320 Speaker 1: the bitter Root Mountains and think that was going to 608 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 1: lead them to the Northwest Passage, you know, and it 609 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: didn't didn't do it at all. I mean, there's not 610 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: even a Northwest Passage kind of highway across the bitter 611 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 1: Root Mountains these days. So they didn't find that they 612 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,240 Speaker 1: kind of actually failed in their ultimate goal of finding 613 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: a northwest passage. But and they didn't really you know, 614 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,360 Speaker 1: their presence on the Pacific coast was important for that 615 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,479 Speaker 1: winner of eighteen oh five, but eighteen oh five, eighteen 616 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 1: oh six, but you know, Astoria's Fort was probably more important. 617 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:44,880 Speaker 1: And even that fort got taken away by the Brits 618 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,719 Speaker 1: in the War of eighteen twelve. But it's it's those 619 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: journals and all that description of the landscape and the animals, 620 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 1: and the ethnographic stuff on the native people, you know, 621 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 1: however flawed. Sometimes it might have been Jesus Man. That 622 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: stuff nobody. I certainly don't want to ever lose that. 623 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:06,840 Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark count count. 624 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 2: I want to hear more about the Big Raft, the 625 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,879 Speaker 2: Great Raft, a thousand year old log jam. 626 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, the Great Raft is really interesting. 627 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 2: I presume it's not there anymore. 628 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,400 Speaker 1: It's not there anymore, but it took the invention of 629 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: nitroglycerin in the eighteen seventies to remove it. 630 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:24,840 Speaker 2: How many miles long was it? 631 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: Well, when it was finally removed, it was one hundred 632 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:28,919 Speaker 1: and forty miles long. 633 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:30,719 Speaker 2: I just want people to picture what we're talking about. 634 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,759 Speaker 2: It like if if you've seen just like picture, you're 635 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 2: on a creek and you know, at the end of 636 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,880 Speaker 2: spring runoff or whatever, and there's a bunch of logs 637 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,360 Speaker 2: piled up like toothpicks or match sticks, all jumbled up, 638 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,320 Speaker 2: you know, and there's usually that a be or cooler 639 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 2: in a bottle and someone's dog toy floating there because 640 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 2: it can't get by. But then the next year it 641 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 2: floods and washes it out, washes it out, and it's 642 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:56,959 Speaker 2: you know, but you see them pop up and go away. 643 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,800 Speaker 2: But the fact that one of those ad a thousand 644 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,359 Speaker 2: years and accumulated over one hundred miles of logs, and yeah, 645 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,880 Speaker 2: not only totally obstructed any kind of navigation. 646 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:12,240 Speaker 1: Completely obstructed navigation, and not only that it was climbing 647 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,359 Speaker 1: the river. It started out we think a thousand years ago, 648 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 1: down at the mouth of the Red River, and when 649 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 1: Freeman and Custis encountered it, they were like about two 650 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty miles up the river. So it had 651 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: receded for two hundred and fifty miles up river as 652 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 1: the bottom end had rotted off and it had been 653 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,800 Speaker 1: swept away by floods. But every time there was a 654 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 1: big freshet out on the plains, the upper end stacked 655 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,719 Speaker 1: up again, and so it was just climbing the Red 656 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 1: River like a snake. And by the time of. 657 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,480 Speaker 2: Year, that was a frustrated many a cat fisherman. 658 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:54,400 Speaker 1: Ohnot of structure, though, it frustrated, you know, So on 659 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 1: the Missouri once we had steamboats, I mean you could 660 00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,479 Speaker 1: go up the Missouri and you could you know, you'd 661 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: haul back bison ropes, heavy stuff from the planes. But 662 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,759 Speaker 1: on the Red River you could not navigate that thing 663 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 1: until the eighteen seventies and they. 664 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:10,080 Speaker 2: Blasted it out of there. 665 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 1: They blasted it out. Our guy named Captain Henry Shreve 666 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 1: from the US Army Corps of Engineers used nitro glycerin. 667 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,760 Speaker 1: It took him about ten years to blast. 668 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:22,440 Speaker 2: Oh that's all I was gonna ask. So he didn't 669 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 2: find like some magical pinch point. No, you just kept 670 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:26,799 Speaker 2: doing it. 671 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 1: Just kept blowing it out, doing it. I mean, I've 672 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,839 Speaker 1: got photographs of it in that book. I mean, it's 673 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:37,400 Speaker 1: kind of unbelievable. And people said, you could be walking 674 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:42,000 Speaker 1: out on the ground what you thought was just the ground, 675 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,240 Speaker 1: and you'd cock your ear and damn, there's water running 676 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 1: under my feet, and they would realize, shit, we're standing 677 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 1: on the great raft and underneath us the Red River 678 00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,280 Speaker 1: is flowing, but it's timber coming out of where ultimately 679 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: it's coming from, primarily the woods upstream on the Red River. 680 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 2: Oh okay, so it's cottonwood logs. Yeah, some of my 681 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,280 Speaker 2: mind I was picturing. Yeah, some of them were Jennifer 682 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 2: picturing like like a coniferous tree of some sort or 683 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 2: I got you. 684 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, there were there were. There was a big expanse 685 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:20,240 Speaker 1: of junipers on the middle Red not rocky mountain junipers, 686 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 1: but there were Virginia junipers and they were really tall, 687 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: really big. 688 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,480 Speaker 2: People compared it was mostly cottonwoods tipping into the river. 689 00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:28,839 Speaker 1: It was mostly cotton woods. And of course cottonwoods that's 690 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,719 Speaker 1: why it would rot away, is because you know, they're 691 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:37,200 Speaker 1: soft and kind of easily damaged by water. And so yeah, 692 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,640 Speaker 1: this thing was just climbing the river. 693 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,360 Speaker 3: Were there are there oral traditions that I mean, it 694 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:48,600 Speaker 3: seems like this sort of thing that's just so grand 695 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,800 Speaker 3: and strange, and I wonder like if there if we 696 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,200 Speaker 3: have any sort of sense of how native people in 697 00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,920 Speaker 3: that area described. 698 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:03,560 Speaker 1: It, well, I don't have a good native account, but 699 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,960 Speaker 1: I can tell you this. In two thousand and six, 700 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:14,160 Speaker 1: the two hundredth anniversary of this expedition, Lsu Shreetport put 701 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:19,280 Speaker 1: on a three day symposium celebrating the Freeman and Custis expedition. 702 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 1: And so they had me back there to do a 703 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: keynote and do various other things. And while I was there, 704 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 1: there was a group of Catto Indian guys and they 705 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,920 Speaker 1: came up to me and they said, so, you know 706 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:39,960 Speaker 1: where Chikhania is, don't you? And I said, yeah, I 707 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,360 Speaker 1: do and Chakanie and I I mentioned in the podcast 708 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,600 Speaker 1: that Freeman and Custis climbed this little small mountain in 709 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 1: southwestern Arkansas with their two guides and drank a bottle 710 00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,840 Speaker 1: of whiskey in order to converse with the Great Spirit. 711 00:46:54,719 --> 00:47:01,640 Speaker 1: And these Caddos who were removed from Louisiana by treaty 712 00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 1: in eighteen thirty five and they were relocated to western 713 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:10,919 Speaker 1: Oklahoma around a lot in Oklahoma, they had had kind 714 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:15,600 Speaker 1: of oral traditions of this mountain that was supposed to 715 00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:20,840 Speaker 1: be part of their origin story, but they didn't know 716 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 1: where it was. And somebody told them, I don't know 717 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:28,160 Speaker 1: if they told them at that conference or they already 718 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,560 Speaker 1: knew about it when they came. But they came to 719 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 1: me and said, so, you know where Chickny and aias 720 00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:36,520 Speaker 1: And I said yeah, because I had gone up and 721 00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 1: found it and climbed the mountain and you know, I 722 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:41,319 Speaker 1: didn't drink a whole bottle of whiskey, but I drank 723 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:46,279 Speaker 1: some whiskey up on top of it. And I said yeah. 724 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:48,759 Speaker 1: And they said, well, can you show us where it is? 725 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,640 Speaker 1: I said, well, absolutely, yeah, I can take you there. 726 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,799 Speaker 1: So I took these four cattle guys, one of them 727 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,560 Speaker 1: was really pretty old, he was in his eighties probably, 728 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: and went up to this mountain that was there as 729 00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:07,200 Speaker 1: part of their creation myth story. That was very cool. 730 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,600 Speaker 1: I don't know who owned the hill. Uh, there were 731 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,840 Speaker 1: there was nobody really living very close to it. And 732 00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,960 Speaker 1: so sort of like the way you and I did, 733 00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,440 Speaker 1: uh a blackwater draw A blackwater draw, we had a 734 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:26,799 Speaker 1: self tour and I did a self guided tour up 735 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,719 Speaker 1: on top of that. Now. Yeah, just climbed up there 736 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 1: and uh yeah. So these guys, uh And since then, 737 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,280 Speaker 1: and this happened within the last year, I've had another 738 00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,400 Speaker 1: guy who tells me. He's a cat Oak historian, and 739 00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,040 Speaker 1: he's wanting me to show him where it is and 740 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,000 Speaker 1: take him out there. Of course I don't ever really, 741 00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:50,600 Speaker 1: my parents are gone. I've got aunts and uncles and 742 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:56,400 Speaker 1: things back in Louisiana. But yeah, so yeah, I actually 743 00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:58,719 Speaker 1: sent him a you know, I took a photograph of 744 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,040 Speaker 1: a USGS seven point five quad and sent it to 745 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:04,400 Speaker 1: him and showed him the road that went by, a 746 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,000 Speaker 1: little dirt road two track that went by, and circle 747 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,000 Speaker 1: it and said, this is where it is. That's right here. 748 00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:15,040 Speaker 2: So the expedition had they not been turned around, what 749 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:18,680 Speaker 2: name brand features would they have? 750 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:19,480 Speaker 1: Like? 751 00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,040 Speaker 2: What things that people today are? Where might they have been? 752 00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,560 Speaker 2: Like holy cologe of that? Like what would they run into? 753 00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:26,840 Speaker 1: Well, they would have. They would have been out on 754 00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:33,839 Speaker 1: the equivalent of the Mandan Lakota country farther south. I mean, 755 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:35,720 Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark of course, get up to the Mandan 756 00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:40,640 Speaker 1: villages and they've already passed some Lakota bands, and then 757 00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:42,480 Speaker 1: they go from the Mandan villages to the Rockies and 758 00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:47,200 Speaker 1: they don't really see anybody, but they would less Freeman 759 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,120 Speaker 1: Custis would have been amongst a similar group of people 760 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:55,800 Speaker 1: farther south. But in this case it was Pawnees, a 761 00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,279 Speaker 1: group we call the Wichitas now, and they had It's 762 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,759 Speaker 1: the same group, by the way, that Carnado when he 763 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:05,279 Speaker 1: was going to Quavera, was trying to find. And when 764 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:07,479 Speaker 1: Carnado went to try to find them, they were living 765 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,239 Speaker 1: up on the Arkansas River, but they had moved down 766 00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,360 Speaker 1: to the Red River, I don't know, fifty or sixty 767 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,520 Speaker 1: years before Freeman Incussus. And so that's where they were going, 768 00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,319 Speaker 1: and they were gonna leave their craft there, those seven 769 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,359 Speaker 1: boats they had, and they were gonna purchase horses from 770 00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,400 Speaker 1: the Wichitas and head up the river. And as I 771 00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,360 Speaker 1: said when I was trying to describe how that river works, 772 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:31,759 Speaker 1: you would reach a point maybe one hundred miles beyond 773 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,320 Speaker 1: the Wichita villages, where it would fork, kind of like 774 00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:39,239 Speaker 1: a three forks thing, except depending on which way you went. 775 00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:43,320 Speaker 1: The right hand one would go through the Wichita Mountains 776 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:47,040 Speaker 1: in the Quartz Mountains of southwestern Oklahoma, and it really 777 00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,400 Speaker 1: wouldn't go much farther than that. It wouldn't get you, 778 00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:53,360 Speaker 1: for example, to the front range of the Rockies. The 779 00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:57,320 Speaker 1: left fork, though, and this is the one that everybody 780 00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,279 Speaker 1: thought that's the one that's going to go to Santa Fe. 781 00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:05,360 Speaker 1: That fork would actually take you to the canyons of 782 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:09,719 Speaker 1: the eastern escarpment of the Aano Estacata. And so in 783 00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:11,239 Speaker 1: the primary one is Paalo Duro. 784 00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:12,840 Speaker 2: Can they would have been in a commanche country. 785 00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:14,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, they would have been in Commanchee country with the. 786 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,200 Speaker 2: Commandche have demolished them. 787 00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,400 Speaker 1: You know, I don't think so. No, I don't think so. 788 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:22,640 Speaker 2: I mean, at that time, it wouldn't have been hostile. 789 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:27,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. The next episode I'm going to do is about 790 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:32,000 Speaker 1: a guy, a trader named Anthony Glass who two years 791 00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:36,720 Speaker 1: after Freeman Custis are turned around the Jefferson Administration, Indian 792 00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,800 Speaker 1: Asia and Nacolas shown Sibley. They give this guy the 793 00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:43,960 Speaker 1: responsibility of going out and make the diplomatic arrangements with 794 00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,520 Speaker 1: the Wichitas and the command She take American flags out, 795 00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,279 Speaker 1: give them American flags, tell them they're now, you know, 796 00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,719 Speaker 1: part of the Great Father in Washington's tribes and we're 797 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 1: going to start trading with him and all that. And 798 00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:59,239 Speaker 1: that guy he was among the Wichitas and the Comanches 799 00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:03,320 Speaker 1: for about ten months and he didn't ever really experience 800 00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,520 Speaker 1: any kind of danger. And what it was, I think 801 00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:09,640 Speaker 1: is if you were a trader, if you had trade 802 00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:13,440 Speaker 1: goods and they were, they were a okay with you. 803 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,960 Speaker 1: And Glass of course took trade goods out with him, 804 00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:21,280 Speaker 1: so I don't think the Comanches would have screwed around 805 00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:23,560 Speaker 1: with him. They didn't screw around with the Long Expedition 806 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:28,759 Speaker 1: fifteen years later. They just let them go through. They 807 00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:33,080 Speaker 1: didn't really have any reason yet, I think to be 808 00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,400 Speaker 1: hostile and who they became who the Commanches became hostile 809 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,719 Speaker 1: towards by the eighteen forties, eighteen fifties, eighteen sixties was 810 00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:44,719 Speaker 1: the Texans, and they distinguished between Texans and Americans. Yeah. 811 00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:49,640 Speaker 2: Well, I look forward to that episode coming up. Man, 812 00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:50,319 Speaker 2: that's gonna be great. 813 00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:52,959 Speaker 1: It'll be fun because there's a it's got a little 814 00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:55,320 Speaker 1: Oh Henry twist to it. Think you 815 00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:06,439 Speaker 2: To the game when Moses the vis