WEBVTT - 15 Days in Guantánamo 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:04.240 Dear listener, before we start, just a warning that suicide 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:05.680 is going to come up in this piece. 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:06.440 Take care. 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:11.959 One is a former migrant from Venezuela. He remembers the 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:15.120 day two years ago when he posed for a photograph 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:17.280 that would end up changing his life. 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:21.280 Meto. 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:24.520 It was September of twenty twenty two, and he and 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.440 a small group of his family members had just arrived 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:31.480 in Ibake, in western Colombia. It was the first days 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:33.720 of a long journey to the United States, where he 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:36.519 hoped to find work a new life, all of it 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.640 far away from the economic and political crises in his homeland. 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:42.880 In Venezuela, the wont Eka. 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.280 Tauna Plaza Kere Antigo. 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.640 When the group spotted a monument of an old train 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:53.320 car outside the bus terminal, it felt like the perfect 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:57.840 spot to take a picture to document the moment. It's 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:02.200 an old train engine surround by colorful flowers. It's a 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:05.160 group of five men and one woman, all in their twenties, 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:09.919 and they stand there smiling at the camera. Juan sits 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:12.840 on one side of the train engine, giving a thumbs up. 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:16.240 He looks happy. He was happy. 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:22.880 Now. 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:27.120 Almost two years and two thousand miles later, this photo 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:30.080 would land one in one of the most infamous prisons 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:36.880 on earth that's run by the US government. It's called Guantanamo. 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:45.280 From Futro Media and PRX, It's Latino USA. I'm Maria Josa. 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:50.520 Today Juan's story and how the Trump administration is taking 0:01:50.560 --> 0:02:02.040 his war on immigrants to a whole new level. Producer 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:04.600 Ariel Goodman has the story. 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:07.520 Huan is one of the one hundred and seventy seven 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:11.440 Venezuelan migrants that the Trump administration sent to the Guantanamo 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:13.880 Bay detention camp in Cuba this February. 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:21.160 We have thirty thousand beds in Guantanamo to detain the 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:24.359 worst criminal illegal aliens threatening the American people. 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.960 Quan is not his real name. We're protecting his identity 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:31.760 for security reasons. He's a thirty year old construction worker 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.959 and a father of four. That photo, the one we 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.160 described at the top, would eventually be used by immigration 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:41.240 and Customs enforcement as proof that Juan was connected to 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:46.560 trender Awa. Tren means train in Spanish. In reality, Juan 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:48.520 says he took that photo to mark a memory with 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:52.400 his family and that train car. It's an antique commemorating 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:55.000 an old Colombian rail line built in the nineteen twenties. 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:59.000 But this accusation that Juan was a member of trender 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:02.200 AWA would ultimately place him in the crosshairs of the 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:06.680 newly elected Trump administration. Determined to fulfill its campaign promise 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:10.960 of waging an all out war on immigrants, Trump frequently 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:14.639 spoke about t AWA on the campaign trail, often repeating 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:17.720 false claims that the gang had taken control of neighborhoods 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:18.760 in Colorado. 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:22.880 As we speak, heavily lam Venezuela and gangs taking over 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:29.000 entire aprofit buildings and propping complexes in Aurora, Colorado, terrorizing 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:29.760 the residence. 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:33.320 On his first day in office, Trump signed an executive 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:36.920 order designating the gang as a quote foreign terrorist organization. 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:42.440 We got a hold of Juan and Venezuela, where he 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:43.880 was deported in February. 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:45.560 He Vescuccas. 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:51.200 When we spoke to him, he had just visited Marakai, 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:53.040 the city where he was born and raised. 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:59.960 Sin sing Joyani time Topuerlo at all. 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:04.280 He tells me that it felt good to be back 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:06.800 home and to see his children for the first time 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:11.680 in years, But he says nothing is the same. Marakai 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.200 is the capital state of Arawa. It's called Sudan Garvin 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.960 because of its abundance of gardens. Arawa is where trend 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:22.200 Arawa originated in a prison in twenty fourteen and got 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:26.200 its name. It's also where Juan has always dreamed of returning. 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:32.839 To Geriaita Tolment. 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.159 Juan says that his biggest dream was to own a 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:41.799 house in Maracai that he could hand down to his children. 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.480 But at twenty two years old, Juan was unable to 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:47.080 find work in his home country, so he joined the 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:50.599 millions of Venezuelans one in every four who have left 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:55.960 their country over the past seven years. In twenty seventeen, 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:58.520 Juan moved to Ecuador with his wife and four children. 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:01.800 They lived there for six years. Ja Juan worked in construction, 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.800 but when COVID nineteen hit in twenty twenty, Ecuador became 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:08.279 an early epicenter in Latin America. 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:12.159 Ecuador is seeing one of the world's worst coronavirus outbreaks 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:13.760 what possibly thousands did. 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:16.360 More than half a million people lost their full time 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:19.640 jobs that year in Ecuador, and life there became untenable 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:35.440 for many foreigners, such as Juana. He remembers seeing Venezuelans 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:37.960 like himself, kicked out of the places they were renting 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:41.239 because they could no longer afford them. Their belongings tossed 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:45.800 on the street. That's when he decided to seek opportunities 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:50.440 somewhere else, this time north of Venezuela in the United States. 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.640 First he traveled through Colombia, where he took the photo 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.000 in front of that old train car. Then to the 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:03.479 Darien Jungle, the infamously dangerous stretch of rainforest that straddles 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:07.839 the border of Columbia and Panama. 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:18.920 Jodel Simple mediasutau Ba. 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:24.760 I went six days without eating, he says. Most of 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:27.159 the time I was running to keep up with the guides. 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:34.040 Huan's journey continued for over a year. He ran out 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:36.760 of money in Costa Rica and stayed there working in 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:39.919 construction for a year and a half. He rode on 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:42.800 top of train cars with migrants from all over South 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:47.719 and Central America, ran from immigration officials, walked through forests 0:06:47.760 --> 0:07:01.960 at night. He finally made it to the United States 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:05.520 in May of last year. Friends and family here instructed 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:08.159 him to do as they had done, turn himself over 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:11.040 to immigration authorities, where he would be processed and then 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:14.480 let free while his asylum case was determined and in 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.400 El Paso, Texas. Juan did just as he was told. 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:26.800 He felt happy he had made it across Aijata, but 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:30.280 I was wrong, he says. That was where my nightmare began. 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:35.280 Juan says that the ICE officials asked him questions about 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:43.679 his entire life. They went through his phone and found 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:45.800 that picture of him in front of the train, which 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:49.280 he says they used to connect him to Trenderrawa. That 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:51.560 and a tattoo of three stars he has on his 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:54.640 right arm, which they claimed was also proof that he 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:58.400 had ties to the gang. According to experts, though trend 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:02.600 Arawa doesn't use tattoos as a signifier of membership, Quan 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:05.200 says he got that tattoo when he was sixteen years 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:07.320 old because it looked like a tattoo that one of 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:12.120 his favorite reggaeton artists, Farruko had. According to US court records, 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:15.520 Juan has no criminal history here other than improper entry 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:19.680 into the country. He also provided a Venezuelan government document 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:22.840 to Latino USA declaring that he has no criminal history 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:23.960 in his country of origin. 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:30.840 Legas among me the policy. 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.079 I come from poverty. He says, but I have nothing 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:37.000 to hide. Quan was charged with a legal entry and 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:40.120 eventually sent to a detention center in net Baso, where 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:43.600 he stayed for several months. There, he says that every 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:46.120 day everyone in his cell block would gather around a 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:48.920 television to watch the news. It was how they stayed 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:50.400 connected to the outside world. 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.040 It is now official CNN projects that Donald Trump has 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:58.680 been elected president, defeating Vice President Kamala Harris and making 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:03.200 a political comeback like any in modern American politics. 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:05.800 When the new president began threatening to send the so 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:10.160 called worst criminal migrants to Guantanamo Bay, fear and rumors 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:13.600 started to spread amongst the detainees, and one. 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:20.280 Night, alb Alberonier all of us. 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:24.320 One by one. They called ten people by name. 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:24.920 He says. 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:27.960 The next day he would find out in the news 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:29.600 what had happened to them. 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:32.560 The Department of Homeland Security has released the first images 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:36.280 of detained migrants arriving at Guantanamo Bay. The ten people 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.840 on the flight from El Paso, Texas are suspected members 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:43.000 of a Venezuelan gang. The Trump administration has said the 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.520 high security prison facility used to hold Al Qaeda detainees 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.119 will now also be used for so called hardened criminals 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:51.959 who do not have proper documentation. 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:56.120 Juan immediately recognized the people in those images. They were 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.320 the young Venezuelan men who had been taken from the 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:13.520 detention center the previous night. That's when the trauma started, 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:17.680 he says. The images showed the migrants shackled from head 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:22.960 to toe boarding massive military aircrafts, surrounded by heavily armed guards, 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:26.920 headed to Guantanamo Bay, and just a few days later, 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:30.560 this time by the cover of night, Kuan's name was 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:46.280 also called. He described it as a horror movie. He 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:49.679 says that he and around fifteen other migrants were treated 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:53.679 like terrorists. They were shackled from the legs, hands, and waist. 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:57.960 He estimates that he was on the plane for eight hours, 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:01.960 flanked by soldiers with rifles. When they landed, they were 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:05.040 ushered and then shackled again into seats on a bus 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:11.840 with black plastic covering the windows. It felt like a kidnapping, 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:15.600 he says. He says they were told that they were 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:19.440 going to Miami, but instead they were taken to Guantanamo Bay. 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:30.000 Join King Sailor. 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:36.199 Kuan describes the fifteen days that followed as torture. He 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:40.120 wasn't given any information about what was happening or if 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:43.520 he would ever leave. It was a hopelessness, he says, 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:49.840 that made him want to die. Lawsuits against the Trump 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:53.120 administration that have since been filed by civil rights groups 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:57.560 include testimonies from some of the Venezuelan detainees in Guantanamo. 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:02.000 They detail instances of physical abuse, use invasive strip searches, 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:05.520 lack of medical care, and no access to legal counsel. 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:16.400 Partico Domo Kwan estimates that his cell, which in place 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:19.079 of a mattress, had a piece of plastic, was seven 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:21.960 by five feet, the size of a small bathroom with 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:33.000 a tiny latrine. 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:37.240 He passed the days screaming, pacing his cell, kicking the door, 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.160 and banging his head on the wall. He says he 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:43.720 felt like he was drowning. He told us that sometimes 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.160 guards would come in and chain his body to a 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:50.480 restraint chair for hours. A US colonel recently admitted to 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:53.840 The New York Times that in one single day, prison 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.440 staff strapped six of the Venezuelan migrants to restraint chairs 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:04.000 after they attempted suicide. Cierria Zier, you couldn't tell day 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:09.800 from night Quan explains. Juan spoke of extreme cold and 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:13.280 extreme heat. He says he was barely fed and felt 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:25.440 hungry every day. I swear, He says, it feels like 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:28.040 you've been buried and that they've thrown the dirt on 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:35.480 top of you, but you're still alive. The desperation was 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:38.640 so deep that one day he chewed on his own 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:42.040 tongue repeatedly in the hopes that he would bleed to death. 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.880 Soon before they were released, Juan says that he and 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:56.240 the other migrants attempted to wage a hunger strike, which 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:59.240 they organized by yelling to one another through the cell walls. 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.040 Juan stopped what little betting he had into the latrine 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:07.320 to flood his cell refuse food, and continued to spend 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:09.880 his days kicking the door of his cell and yelling, 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.760 hoping that it would call attention to his case or 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:22.400 bring him answers. On February twenty first, all one hundred 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.760 seventy seven Venezuelan men who were detained at Guantanamo Bay, 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:28.400 the first but not the last migrants sent there by 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:34.240 the Trump administration, were deported back to Venezuela. In this video, 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:37.360 the men, the youngest of which was nineteen years old, 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:42.480 are dismounting a plane surrounded by Venezuelan officials. Some smile, 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:45.360 one throws his hands up in the air and looks 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:54.360 at the sky, appearing to thank God. While the Trump 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.480 administration first accused the group of being the quote worst 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.600 of the worst, it later admitted in court for that 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:03.360 close to thirty percent of the detainees did not have 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:07.640 criminal records other than unauthorized entry into the United States, 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:11.360 and that they were considered quote low threat illegal aliens. 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:15.080 When Juan arrived in Venezuela, he says that he was 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:18.640 ten pounds lighter, he had no money or clothes other 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.040 than the ones that he was wearing. Now he's slowly 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.000 trying to piece his life back together. He wants to 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:28.400 work on what he does best, construction, but he says 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:30.880 that the pay is so low in Venezuela that he 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:34.840 practically would be doing it for free. Instead, he's considering 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:38.800 selling bananas to help pay the bills. Juan tries to 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:41.640 fill his days with his family, but at night, he 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:45.840 says he can't sleep unless he takes pills. Once he 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:49.400 dreamed of making it to the US. Now the memories 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:51.359 of it manifest as nightmares. 0:15:57.600 --> 0:15:58.280 I assume. 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.280 At night is when the real terror comes. He says, 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.160 I fall into a loop remembering what I lived through. 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:11.480 It's something I can't let go of. 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:23.800 One was deported to his home country of Venezuela in February, 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:28.920 and just weeks later, over two hundred Venezuelans under similar 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:33.320 circumstances were sent from the US to another infamous prison, 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:37.600 this time in El Salvador. When we come back, we 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:41.440 dive into the new phase of Trump's war on immigrants 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:54.080 that's coming up. Stay with us, Yes, hey, we're back. 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.240 And before the break, we heard the story of jue 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:03.280 A Venezuelan and immigrants who spent fifteen days in Guantanamo 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.800 after the Trump administration accused him of being a member 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:11.040 of the Venezuelan gang trin Zagwa. But now Trump is 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:14.560 taking his war on immigrants to another level. Just a 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:17.800 couple of weeks ago, he in vote the Alien Enemies 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:22.040 Act of seventeen ninety eight. It's a wartime law. This 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:25.560 Alien Enemies Act has only been invoked three times, most 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:28.280 recently during World War Two, when it was used to 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:32.080 put Japanese immigrants in internment camps. By claiming that then 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:36.200 n Ahwa is conducting quote irregular warfare in the United States. 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:40.040 The Trump administration is using the Act to deport migrants 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:43.280 who it claims have ties to the gang, all of 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:47.560 this without due process, and in March it deported more 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:52.720 than two hundred Venezuelans to El Salvador's infamous mega prison secote. 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.000 To better understand all of this, we're going to speak 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:59.960 to Ramsey Kassim. He's professor of law at the City 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:04.280 University of New York. Professor Cassim has represented detainees at 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:08.840 Guantanamo Bay over the last twenty years. He's also one 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.680 of the lead lawyers defending Mahur Khalil. 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:15.360 Ice agents detained a leader of the Gaza Solidarity encampment 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:19.720 at Columbia University. Mahan Khalil is an Algerian citizen of 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:23.560 Palestinian descent who's a Green Card holder and a lawful 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:28.160 permanent resident of the United States. Immigration officials told Khalil's 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:30.960 lawyer his green card is being revoked. 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.480 Professor Ramsey Cassim, welcome to Latino, USA. 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:40.320 Thank you so much for having me Adia So, Ramsey. 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:44.120 We're looking today at Trump's move to incarcerate migrants abroad, 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:48.320 first in Guantanamo, now in El Salvador, and we're going 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:50.359 to get into that in a moment. But to start off, 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.560 can you connect the dots for us? How is the 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:59.359 Trump administration's detention of your client Mahmour Khalil connected to 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:04.639 the administration's move to incarconate migrants, as civil rights groups 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:07.320 like yours are arguing in these unlawful ways. 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:11.720 One way to connect the dots, Maria is to point 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:17.879 out that when the Trump administration decides to fly migrants 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:23.600 who it claims without much support, are affiliated with gangs 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:26.840 to Guantanamo, and when it also makes a move on 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:30.400 someone like Marmo Trallier, who his only offense, as far 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:33.720 as anybody can see, is that he has said things 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.840 that the government happens to disagree with in support of 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:40.359 Palestinian lives and rights and freedom. The through line between 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:45.040 those two actions is that these are essentially communications efforts, 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:49.320 and so when it comes to leveraging the horrible symbolism 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:53.639 of Guantanamo, the intended message is we are doing the 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:59.320 most hard nosed thing to quash migrants, and migration we're 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:03.600 sending them to and so that's a politically valuable message 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:06.920 that comforts the Trump Administration's political base here in the 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:12.080 United States, and the administration also intends to deter migrants 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:14.719 from coming to the United States again by leveraging and 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.639 mobilizing the horrific symbolic weight of Guantanamo and all the 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:24.840 associations with torture, with indefinite incarceration, without fair process, without trial, 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:29.159 without conviction for decades on end. And once again, the 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:32.359 people who are being brought to Guantanamo are brown and 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:36.120 black folks. That was the case with the nearly eight 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:40.439 hundred Sunny Muslim prisoners who were incarcerated there since nine 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:44.840 to eleven, and that's the case today with the LATINX migrants, 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:49.200 whom the administration claims are gang affiliated again without much support, 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:52.919 much like previous administrations claimed that the Muslim man at 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:56.600 Guantanamo were affiliated with terrorist groups and with mister Khalil, 0:20:56.800 --> 0:21:00.440 the message is taking the harshest possible measures by targeting 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:02.560 a Green card holder in New York City with no 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:05.680 criminal convictions, and it also wants to send a message 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:09.399 to protesters that their speech will not be tolerated and 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:12.160 it will be punished. They want to silence folks who 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:14.879 stand up in support of Palestinians and who stand up 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:18.080 against genocide, and that has already backfired. Frankly, I mean, 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:21.440 you've seen Mariyap, the thousands of people who have taken 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.879 to the streets and solidarity with him and solidarity with 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:29.040 the Palestinian people, and also to stand up for rights 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:30.479 in this country to speak up. 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:33.920 You know what's incredible, Ramsey, is that when we first 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:36.920 reached out to you to talk about Guantanamo, you told 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:41.800 me that your last client had just been released from 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:46.439 Guantanamo earlier this year, and all of a sudden, you 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:51.080 find yourself now having to talk about Guantanamo again. So 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:55.040 you did represent men on Guantanamo as a result of 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:59.080 George W. Bush's post nine to eleven quote unquote war 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:02.840 on Terror, and back then the Bush administration justified their 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:07.560 indefinite detention without due process and the human rights abuses 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:11.280 that they endured by arguing that this was quote unquote 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:15.359 a new kind of warfare with a new kind of enemy. 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.919 And now Trump has invoked the Alien Enemies Act saying 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:24.639 this is a time of war, describing an influx of 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:30.160 migrants and immigrants and refugees as quote an invasion. So 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:34.200 what part of Trump's actions are unprecedented and what part 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:37.480 of them are actually part of a direct lineage to 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:39.119 Bush era policies. 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:44.600 The continuity is remarkable, and everything from the visuals on 0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:48.000 the first plane full of so called War on Terror 0:22:48.040 --> 0:22:52.479 prisoners landed there. The US government had photographers there. There 0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:56.960 are these notorious, infamous pictures of Muslim, black and brown 0:22:57.040 --> 0:23:01.280 men on their knees shackled. You know, their eyes are 0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:04.919 covered and they're being photographed because the point was to 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:07.840 message to the outside world that the United States was 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:10.880 responding to nine to eleven in the harshest possible way. 0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:14.840 And so it's the same now with the Venezuelan migrants. 0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:18.040 There were photographers on the tarmac as the men in 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:22.240 jumpsuits and shackles were being taken aboard a plane that 0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:25.119 was going to fly them to Guantanamo. It's really just 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:27.919 about the politics, the messaging, and the authority that they 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:31.320 are invoking. It's very similar to what they did after 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:34.560 nine to eleven, when they claimed on all sorts of 0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:38.560 novel grounds, that they had the authority to incarcerate anyone, 0:23:38.600 --> 0:23:42.600 including a US citizen, as an enemy combatant quote unquote, 0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:45.040 without having to charge them without having to try them 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:48.920 and without even having to abide by the Geneva Conventions. 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:59.959 What happened with El Salvador, right, is that the deportee 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:04.159 planes tool Salvador were already in the air when a 0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:07.520 judge ordered that they return. The judge had issued a 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:10.639 verbal order in time to stop those deportations, but the 0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:14.760 Trump administration did not comply with that order. So Ramsey, 0:24:14.800 --> 0:24:17.400 what is your level of alarm about a president defying 0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:20.960 the American court system and how much in danger are 0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:25.879 our checks and balances in terms of what upholds our democracy? 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:29.359 You know, I think that is certainly troubling that the 0:24:29.359 --> 0:24:32.560 administration was under an order not to do something, not 0:24:32.600 --> 0:24:36.639 to fly these mental Salvador, and that it did it anyway. Now, 0:24:36.800 --> 0:24:39.479 one might say we are not yet in the worst 0:24:39.640 --> 0:24:43.840 possible place, in the sense that the Trump administration's position 0:24:44.040 --> 0:24:47.240 is not that it openly defied a court order or 0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:51.720 disregarded it's making arguments about why the right people were 0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:55.160 not aware of the judge's order at the right time. 0:24:55.720 --> 0:24:58.480 They're making those sorts of excuses, And I only highlight 0:24:58.560 --> 0:25:01.320 that not to excuse it, but just to distinguish it 0:25:02.000 --> 0:25:04.800 from where we might be headed, which is a place 0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:09.679 where the US government will just ignore or openly disregard 0:25:10.080 --> 0:25:12.960 a court order and say that it's doing that. And 0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:16.760 these are all steps towards sort of the open defiance 0:25:16.800 --> 0:25:20.360 and disregard of judicial authority that I'm talking about. They're 0:25:20.400 --> 0:25:24.040 all flirtations with, but we might be headed towards, and 0:25:24.080 --> 0:25:26.400 so it's very important to take note of what's happening 0:25:26.640 --> 0:25:27.440 and to push back. 0:25:30.480 --> 0:25:34.000 Professor Ramsey Kassum, thank you so much for taking the 0:25:34.040 --> 0:25:36.639 time out of your really busy schedule to speak to 0:25:36.720 --> 0:25:37.760 us here at let you Know USA. 0:25:37.840 --> 0:25:38.680 We appreciate it. 0:25:38.800 --> 0:25:40.800 Thank you so much, Maria for your work and for 0:25:40.880 --> 0:25:41.639 this opportunity. 0:25:42.640 --> 0:25:45.719 Don't miss the rest of my conversation with Professor Ramsey 0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:50.600 Kassum dropping on Sunday, we go deeper into Mahmu Khalil's 0:25:50.640 --> 0:25:53.400 case and what it signals about the right to free 0:25:53.440 --> 0:25:56.440 speech and do process in the United States for. 0:25:56.600 --> 0:25:57.120 All of us. 0:26:15.320 --> 0:26:18.320 Our episode was produced by Ariel Goodman and edited by 0:26:18.320 --> 0:26:22.199 Andrea Lopez Gruzzado, mixing and scoring by Stephanie Lebou and 0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:27.040 JJ Carubin. The Ladiro USA team also includes Roxanna Guire, 0:26:27.280 --> 0:26:33.760 Julia Caruso, Felicia Romguez, Fernando Chavari, Jessica Elis, Victoria Strada, Dominiquinestrosa, 0:26:33.880 --> 0:26:38.200 Renando Lanos Junior, Luis Luna Marta Martinez, Monica Moreles Garcia, 0:26:38.400 --> 0:26:43.000 Rasha Sandoval, Lur Saudi and Nancy Trujillo, Penilee, ramidez Wal 0:26:43.080 --> 0:26:46.280 and Bishop Maria Garcia and myself are co executive producers 0:26:46.320 --> 0:26:49.080 and I'm your host, Marie la Posa. Join us again 0:26:49.119 --> 0:26:51.479 on our next episode. In the meantime, I'll see you 0:26:51.520 --> 0:26:55.080 on social media. Asta la proxima note bajas chao. 0:26:56.560 --> 0:27:00.439 Latino USA is made possible in part by the John D. 0:27:00.680 --> 0:27:05.240 And Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, the Ford Foundation, working with 0:27:05.359 --> 0:27:09.600 visionaries on the front lines of social change worldwide, and 0:27:10.359 --> 0:27:13.840 funding for Latino usas. Coverage of a Culture of Health 0:27:14.040 --> 0:27:16.119 is made possible in part by a grant from the 0:27:16.200 --> 0:27:17.800 Robert Wood Johnson Foundation