WEBVTT - #004 Jason Flom with Derrick Hamilton

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<v Speaker 1>I came from a beautiful neighborhood. I had a beautiful life.

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<v Speaker 1>I went to sleep because September seventh was the first

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<v Speaker 1>day of my high school year. I was going to

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<v Speaker 1>be a senior.

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<v Speaker 2>At twenty two, I was set to start college.

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<v Speaker 1>I woke up and my life was never the same again.

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<v Speaker 2>Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw

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<v Speaker 2>freedom ever since after that.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like roach Mota. Once you get in, you and

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<v Speaker 1>I can't now, this is wrongful conviction with Jason Flummer today,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm honored, and I don't use that word lightly to

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<v Speaker 1>have as our guest, Derek Hamilton. Welcome to the show.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Glad you're here. Derek. Your story is extraordinary in so

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<v Speaker 1>many ways, and I don't even know where to begin,

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<v Speaker 1>but I guess we should really take it back to

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<v Speaker 1>the beginning and we'll save the reveal like they do

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<v Speaker 1>in Hollywood, to what you're doing now and what you've

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<v Speaker 1>accomplished in your life over extraordinary obstacles that are almost

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<v Speaker 1>unimaginable obstacles. But let's go back to the beginning and

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<v Speaker 1>talk about how this began. You're a New Yorker born

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<v Speaker 1>and bred like me Brooklyn from Brooklyn. Okay, Brooklyn in

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<v Speaker 1>the house, that's right, all right.

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<v Speaker 2>Bephie Stubbins in neighborhood with violence was know, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it was very tough housing project. I grew up in

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<v Speaker 2>Lafia Gardens where it was kind of like one block

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<v Speaker 2>with eighty thousand people on it, you know, in a

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<v Speaker 2>housing project. And if you got a basketball, you had

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<v Speaker 2>to go outside and fight for your basketball. If your

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<v Speaker 2>mother father bought your pet sneakers, you had to fight

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<v Speaker 2>for your sneakers. It was very depressant. And every little

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<v Speaker 2>kid wants what the next little kid has, and if

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<v Speaker 2>your family don't has it, avotate to try to take it.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was tough stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>And you had some early scraps with the law. Why

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<v Speaker 1>don't you talk about it?

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely. I was a young kid about sixteen and seventeen

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<v Speaker 2>and got into a life of crime, attempted to rob

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<v Speaker 2>someone with the prison for that. Ultimately I was released

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<v Speaker 2>and I was out. Some older guys had committed robbery

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<v Speaker 2>of a bread truck and actually killed the truck driver.

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<v Speaker 2>I was outside that day when the crime happened.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you see it?

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<v Speaker 2>I seen the action. I actually seen it, and actually

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<v Speaker 2>the guys that asked me to look out for them

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<v Speaker 2>if the cops came, just whistle or something of that sort.

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<v Speaker 2>The next day, walking down the block, the police officers

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<v Speaker 2>picked me up and they don't question me about the crime,

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<v Speaker 2>but they just take a picture of me and asked

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<v Speaker 2>me at my Derek Haunton and I said they knew

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<v Speaker 2>me previously from the incident that I had attempted robbery,

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<v Speaker 2>so I took none of it. I left out the precinct.

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<v Speaker 2>One week later, they arrested me for the murder of

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<v Speaker 2>James Wolf, and it just stunned me because I know

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't kill mister Wolf. I know I wasn't involved

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<v Speaker 2>in the crime. But what I learned is that one

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<v Speaker 2>of the older guys who actually committed the crime, who

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<v Speaker 2>car was identified as the car seen fleeing from the scene,

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<v Speaker 2>was able to convince the police officers that he loaned

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<v Speaker 2>the car to me, a seventeen year old kid with

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<v Speaker 2>no license with anything, and the cops actually believed that story.

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<v Speaker 1>And we've seen this in the number of cases where

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<v Speaker 1>the actual killer is and you could say here being smart, right,

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<v Speaker 1>they know that their way out is dependent on somebody else.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, first of all, I was from the housing project

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<v Speaker 2>right where the crime happened. He wasn't, so it seemed

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<v Speaker 2>more obvious that I was likely suspect to get But

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<v Speaker 2>in the event, I go to a trial and during

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<v Speaker 2>the course of the trial, my lawyer tells me that

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<v Speaker 2>there's a witness outside in the hallway who called her

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<v Speaker 2>out and explaining to my lawyer that she would refuse

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<v Speaker 2>to testify. Her name was Patricia Lee. She said the

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<v Speaker 2>cops had forced her to go into grand jury and

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<v Speaker 2>identify me as someone she saw outside the housing project

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<v Speaker 2>who spoke to her after the murder happened and said,

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<v Speaker 2>I panicked and I thought I shocked the guy in

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<v Speaker 2>the arm. She said she would refuse to testify. She

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't get up on the stand and tell that lie.

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<v Speaker 2>My lawyer came back in and reported this to the

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<v Speaker 2>court and said to the court there's a witness in

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<v Speaker 2>the hallway that we never knew existed who said this

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<v Speaker 2>to me. And then the court said, well, let's bring

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<v Speaker 2>the witness. And the witness comes in and the prosecutor

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<v Speaker 2>asks for something called a Soroyis hearing in New York,

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<v Speaker 2>and the Sorois hearing is people versus Croys. And what

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<v Speaker 2>this hearing does is that it puts the burden a

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<v Speaker 2>proof on the prosecutor to prove by clean, convincing evidence

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<v Speaker 2>that I waived my right to confront the witness a

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<v Speaker 2>trial if me or someone acting for me made the

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<v Speaker 2>witness of law for refuse to testify. So the judge

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<v Speaker 2>held this Croys hearing, and the witness testified that it

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<v Speaker 2>was the cops who in fact threatened her and made

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<v Speaker 2>her lie to grand jury, that me and nobody acting

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<v Speaker 2>for me ever had any involvement with her whatsoever. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>we never knew she testified in the grand jury.

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<v Speaker 1>So the judge those hearings are seek right.

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<v Speaker 2>So the judge ruled that day that he could not

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<v Speaker 2>allow the prosecutor to use this witness grand jury testimony

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<v Speaker 2>against me as evidence in chief. In fact, he had

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<v Speaker 2>heard not one iota of evidence that me or anybody

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<v Speaker 2>acting for me did anything wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, because the case was hinged on the eyewitness testimony,

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<v Speaker 1>which we know is one of the most powerful things

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<v Speaker 1>in the criminal justice system.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely right.

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<v Speaker 1>So now you're feeling like, okay, can I go home now?

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<v Speaker 1>Right day?

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<v Speaker 2>And they drenched for one day, and he said you

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<v Speaker 2>got to tomorrow to come up with something and released

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<v Speaker 2>this guy. We returned to court the next day and

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<v Speaker 2>the judge said his previous ruling the day before troubled

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<v Speaker 2>him all night, that he felt that the only one

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<v Speaker 2>that would benefit from the witness refusal to testify is

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<v Speaker 2>me or somebody acting for me, and that because of that,

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<v Speaker 2>he wouldn't allow the prosecutor to use the grand jury

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<v Speaker 2>testimony against me as evidence in chief and find that

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<v Speaker 2>I weighed my right to confrontation. At that moment, the

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<v Speaker 2>lawyer that I had candas Curt, very nice lady, asked me,

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<v Speaker 2>did I understand what was going on in the proceedings?

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<v Speaker 2>I said somewhat, And she says, kid, it is time

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<v Speaker 2>for you to learn what's going on. And she gave

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<v Speaker 2>me two cases and said you need to read those overnight.

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<v Speaker 2>But in the event, she told the judge that she

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<v Speaker 2>would have to testify and become a witness, and she

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<v Speaker 2>would have to take the stand to explain what the

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<v Speaker 2>witness told her in the hallway, in the bathroom, or

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<v Speaker 2>whatever the conversation happened, and had to, you know, show

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<v Speaker 2>that there's no evidence that me and anybody did anything wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>The judge reopened hearing, my lawyer testified, and he still

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<v Speaker 2>stuck by his decision. I was convicted based on the

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<v Speaker 2>grandjury testimonies of Patricia Lee. I was sentence to twenty

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<v Speaker 2>five years of life in prison for murder I did

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<v Speaker 2>not commit. And five years later the Appel Division second

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<v Speaker 2>apartment in the case ruled that the lower court was wrong,

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<v Speaker 2>that they violated my right to confrontation by admitting the

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<v Speaker 2>grand jury testimony as evidence achieved against me, that I

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<v Speaker 2>never forfeited my right, that there was no evidence whatsoever

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<v Speaker 2>that means need by Tampa, with the witness and every

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<v Speaker 2>verse occasion, we managed it back down for a new trial.

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<v Speaker 1>Anyone listening is gonna be going just like I'm going, Well, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>now you go free. Right, Yes, except that's not what happened.

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<v Speaker 2>Not exactly, because I was somewhat coerced to take a plea,

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<v Speaker 2>an outfit plead, because I started a second trial. When

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<v Speaker 2>the Pel Division reverses, they ordered a new trial. They

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<v Speaker 2>prosecuted and instructed the judge to jury, actually in an

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<v Speaker 2>open insummation, that they should find me guilty of attention

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<v Speaker 2>to murder and the second degree, a crime in which

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<v Speaker 2>I was acquitted of at the first trial.

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<v Speaker 1>Sounds like that with jeopardy, right.

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<v Speaker 2>I spoke to my lawyer about it, and I said,

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<v Speaker 2>I just was acquitted that he brought it to the

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<v Speaker 2>court's attention after the jury stepped out of the room

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<v Speaker 2>and the judge macker was who was at the time

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<v Speaker 2>she deceased, now indicated that well it was a mistake,

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<v Speaker 2>well not giving you a mistrial. Um, yes, the prosecutor

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<v Speaker 2>was wrong, Yes she was acquitted of it. But we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to dispose of this case one way another. And

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<v Speaker 2>my lawyer pulled me to the side and said, look,

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<v Speaker 2>as you see, they're not trying to be fair. And

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<v Speaker 2>you know I had a conviction for a weapon at

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<v Speaker 2>that time as also, so he said, you got five

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<v Speaker 2>years for the weapon. You're not going to run for man.

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<v Speaker 2>You see they trying to railroad you. They're willing to

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<v Speaker 2>give you outfit plead. And for the people that don' understand, well,

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<v Speaker 2>you're United States Supreme Court in Alphit versus North Carolina,

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<v Speaker 2>rendered that a plea can be took where a person

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't have to be allocuted, It doesn't have to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about the underlying factors of the case. You say because

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<v Speaker 2>there's a likelihood I may be convicted, not because I'm guilty.

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<v Speaker 2>I accept the conditions of this plea.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So you're not admitting guilt, but the government is

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<v Speaker 1>not admitting innocence. Yes, right, So you're basically in like

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<v Speaker 1>a sort of a gray area, so to speak. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>but basically you're allowed. You can go home, yes, which

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<v Speaker 1>is what everybody wants. Yes, but you can never sue

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<v Speaker 1>the government. You cannot sue the state. You cannot. You

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<v Speaker 1>have no recourse, no recourse at all, right, because they

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<v Speaker 1>never admitting that they were wrong. Right, Okay, so now

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<v Speaker 1>you're out, Yeah, I'm out. And what happened? So now

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<v Speaker 1>you're twenty, I'm at.

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<v Speaker 2>That point, probably about twenty three.

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<v Speaker 1>Twenty three back to Bedstock, Yes, back to It's still

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<v Speaker 1>crazy out there.

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<v Speaker 2>Still, it's crazier than when I left. I mean when

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<v Speaker 2>I left in eighty three, the drug game wasn't as

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<v Speaker 2>crack cocaine never was in the community at that time.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that hit my community in a very very

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<v Speaker 2>hard way. It was like being a different community. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>you came home, there were mothers who were shrung out

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<v Speaker 2>on crack. There was whole families who were shrunk out

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<v Speaker 2>on crack. There was individual now who were drugsars, who

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<v Speaker 2>was running the neighborhood. It was just a different environment.

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<v Speaker 1>This is eighty this is nineteen eighty nine.

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<v Speaker 2>My father was killed in Bepe Staveson a year before.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm coming home with that. I mean, there was

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of different Your father was killed, Yeah, he

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<v Speaker 2>was shouting, killed in stuyvesant On a year before that.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm coming home with, you know, the idea of

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<v Speaker 2>getting my life back together, getting my family back together.

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<v Speaker 2>I was a mechanic help at the being in garage.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm probably going to prison. And at a young age,

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<v Speaker 2>I used to always work at a gas station on

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<v Speaker 2>Franklin and Clifton and Brooklyn. And the nickname I had

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<v Speaker 2>was Amaco Junior because I love cars so much, and

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<v Speaker 2>I worked with grease monkey type of stuff. So when

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<v Speaker 2>I came home, Benjamin Oliver, my previous employer, gave me

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<v Speaker 2>a job and I was working with him, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>changing all doing little things around the shop.

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<v Speaker 1>So things are looking up.

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<v Speaker 2>I was looking up, and my father left me some

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<v Speaker 2>money to invest a got from his insurance policy to

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<v Speaker 2>invest in beauty shalon. So I opened that in new Haven, Connecticut,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm moving along with my life. I'm being known

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<v Speaker 2>to me that there was a detective and members of

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<v Speaker 2>the District Attorney's office.

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<v Speaker 1>By the way, it's an interesting combination working on cars

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<v Speaker 1>and doing beauty.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, So you got a little ultimate apparents Unisex alone man.

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<v Speaker 1>You got hairst I got a whole thank on it, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>thanks of looking up right.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, i got two children, a six year

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<v Speaker 2>old son and a six year old daughter with a

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<v Speaker 2>tw different woman. So I'm trying to be the best

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<v Speaker 2>father i can, taking them to school, picking them up.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm being knownst to me that there was some

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<v Speaker 2>individuals and law enforcement who had me on their radar,

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<v Speaker 2>who felt that the system had failed them, who still

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<v Speaker 2>believed that I was guilty for the death of James Wolf,

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<v Speaker 2>the young man that was killed, and there was some

0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:31.840
<v Speaker 2>cops that was very upset about it. In nineteen ninety

0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:35.200
<v Speaker 2>one January of nineteen ninety one, a friend of mine

0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:37.840
<v Speaker 2>by the name of Daniel Cash was shot and killed

0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:44.280
<v Speaker 2>in Brooklyn outside his home in Bepuestaves. Yes, I was

0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:47.920
<v Speaker 2>in New Haven, Connecticut that particular day, having stayed over

0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.560
<v Speaker 2>the night before for going away party for a friend

0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:55.079
<v Speaker 2>of mine, got a phone call Eddy Cayton, actually nath

0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:57.800
<v Speaker 2>Daniel's cash child mother received a phone call from a

0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:00.480
<v Speaker 2>mother who indicated him to the cash for shot and

0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:03.199
<v Speaker 2>killed in Brooklyn, and that some detectives that came by

0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:05.520
<v Speaker 2>a house looking for me said this Derek.

0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:07.400
<v Speaker 1>Hid and you weren't there because you weren't connected.

0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:09.720
<v Speaker 2>I was in Connecticut, and you know, I took it

0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:12.880
<v Speaker 2>as just talk. When I first heard that the cows

0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:15.520
<v Speaker 2>was looking for me for this murder, I didn't believe it,

0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:18.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, I said, people just saying that. But my

0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:20.480
<v Speaker 2>mother called me and said, the cops have been at

0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:20.960
<v Speaker 2>my house.

0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:22.560
<v Speaker 1>How long have you been out at this point?

0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:28.080
<v Speaker 2>At this point, I've been out probably probably six months,

0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:31.360
<v Speaker 2>because probably about six months a New York City detective

0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:34.439
<v Speaker 2>by the name of Louis Garseller comes to New Haven, Connecticut,

0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:36.760
<v Speaker 2>in the store that the owner and operated that the

0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:38.079
<v Speaker 2>Bautachelon told you about.

0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:40.280
<v Speaker 1>Now let me stop there for a second. Lewis Carseller

0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.360
<v Speaker 1>is infamous, and that's a very nice.

0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:46.439
<v Speaker 2>Way of saying very much so.

0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:50.720
<v Speaker 1>Right. Lewis Garsella is probably responsible for as many or

0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:56.880
<v Speaker 1>more wrongful convictions than any detective in the history of

0:12:56.880 --> 0:12:57.480
<v Speaker 1>this country.

0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:01.200
<v Speaker 2>I believe nine people so far have been as my number.

0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:03.160
<v Speaker 1>Is correct, but there's dozens of cases that have been

0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:07.400
<v Speaker 1>reopened because it's come out that there was I mean,

0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.880
<v Speaker 1>for just one example, there were six different murder cases

0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:12.920
<v Speaker 1>where he used the same witness who was a crackhead,

0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.240
<v Speaker 1>where he was applying drugs to who he was I mean,

0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:19.640
<v Speaker 1>So this woman was so lucky that she witnessed six

0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:23.640
<v Speaker 1>different murders. I mean, that's impossible, and he was he

0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:27.800
<v Speaker 1>was bribing her, coercing her, probably not the most reliable

0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.240
<v Speaker 1>witness ever, and maybe on the fifth one you'd go

0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:33.360
<v Speaker 1>and nobody could get that lucky. I mean. But anyway,

0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:35.600
<v Speaker 1>that's just one example of what he was up to.

0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:39.440
<v Speaker 1>So he was the last guy in the world you

0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:41.200
<v Speaker 1>wanted to be involved with if you were in the

0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:43.200
<v Speaker 1>criminal justice system, because he was going to get a

0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:46.960
<v Speaker 1>conviction and he didn't care whatsoever. That was the facts

0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:51.120
<v Speaker 1>of the case. He was interested in convictions, not truth. Yes, So, okay,

0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:53.480
<v Speaker 1>so Scarcell is looking for you. You didn't know who

0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:54.440
<v Speaker 1>he was though at this point I.

0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:56.080
<v Speaker 2>Didn't know who he was at this point, never heard

0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:59.800
<v Speaker 2>of him. And he walks into the unisextionaland that I

0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:02.000
<v Speaker 2>own kissed me on the side of my face and

0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:06.839
<v Speaker 2>says Lafayette Gardens, motherfucker, excuse my vernacular, and automatically it

0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:10.280
<v Speaker 2>tells me that this guy is from Brooklyn and he

0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:13.079
<v Speaker 2>says that I'm under the rest. At that time, he

0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.719
<v Speaker 2>said it was for a parole violation. I mean it

0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:19.600
<v Speaker 2>took me to on the side of my cheek.

0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:27.760
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, okay, just what Derek, But yeah,

0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:29.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean that's like something strange, like he thought he

0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:30.480
<v Speaker 1>was in the movie type of thing.

0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:32.680
<v Speaker 2>He think he's the mafia figure. He has this biggie

0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, he looks like Joe Pessi, a taller Joe Pessy,

0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:37.800
<v Speaker 2>and I think he took on that character. But if

0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:40.560
<v Speaker 2>you ever see him testify or see his granddaughter, he

0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:44.440
<v Speaker 2>just has that you know, big Italiano Mafio so looking.

0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:46.760
<v Speaker 2>I think he just started playing that role at some point.

0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:48.680
<v Speaker 2>But he came in and kissed me on the cheek,

0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:51.440
<v Speaker 2>arrested me, took me to the Union Avenue station in

0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.160
<v Speaker 2>New Haven, Connecticut, and told me there that I was

0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:56.800
<v Speaker 2>being arrested for the definite Daniel Cash that he had

0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.240
<v Speaker 2>five woodnantses who couldn't identify me and say I killed

0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:06.000
<v Speaker 2>this young man. I told him I was innocent and that, yes, absolutely,

0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.880
<v Speaker 2>that was He said he had five witnesses that disagreed,

0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:13.960
<v Speaker 2>and that he was arresting me for I was transported

0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:17.720
<v Speaker 2>back to Brooklyn and reigned on the indictment pledge not guilty,

0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:23.280
<v Speaker 2>and we began the process. And you know the criminal

0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:25.720
<v Speaker 2>justice system, here we go again, and yes, here we

0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:29.280
<v Speaker 2>go again. The sole witness fuck that accused me of

0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:31.920
<v Speaker 2>the murder came to my lawyer four days after my

0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:35.280
<v Speaker 2>arrest explained to my lawyer that she never saw the crime.

0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:37.160
<v Speaker 1>So there wasn't five witnesses, there was one.

0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:40.040
<v Speaker 2>There was one. There was a single witness who had

0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:42.520
<v Speaker 2>told the cops immediately at the crime scene she didn't

0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:45.640
<v Speaker 2>see it, that she was at the store when she

0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.560
<v Speaker 2>came back, her boyfriend was shot and killed. She was

0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:50.840
<v Speaker 2>beat up at the scene the crime. Took to the

0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.800
<v Speaker 2>precinct with the technive Scots that have told her that

0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:56.440
<v Speaker 2>if she didn't implicate me in the murder, that she

0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.000
<v Speaker 2>herself would go to jail for the crime. She was

0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:01.760
<v Speaker 2>on parole. She had kids too, She had two children,

0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:03.800
<v Speaker 2>and they told us they would lock her up because

0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:05.920
<v Speaker 2>her boyfriend was a felon who had just got out

0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.680
<v Speaker 2>of prison himself, and she had no business being with them.

0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:10.040
<v Speaker 2>So they said because you.

0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:11.920
<v Speaker 1>In which case she would lose custody of her cats.

0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:12.680
<v Speaker 2>She would lose custy.

0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:14.400
<v Speaker 1>We see this over and over again with women. It's

0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:16.320
<v Speaker 1>one of the strongest threats that you can make to

0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:19.400
<v Speaker 1>a mother is listen, you're gonna testify the way we

0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:21.400
<v Speaker 1>want to. And they'll probably tell her too, and listen,

0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:22.880
<v Speaker 1>by the way, this guy's a bad guy. If he

0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:24.920
<v Speaker 1>didn't do this, he did some other stuff you're doing

0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:26.600
<v Speaker 1>society favorite. They tell him whatever the hell they want

0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:29.160
<v Speaker 1>to tell him. But mostly the only thing a woman

0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:31.920
<v Speaker 1>in that situation is gonna hear is you're gonna lose

0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:32.720
<v Speaker 1>custody of your kids.

0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:35.680
<v Speaker 2>And what she said was that, you know, it was

0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:39.040
<v Speaker 2>either her or meet in her mind that they told her,

0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.560
<v Speaker 2>if you don't say this, you're going to jail, and

0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:44.280
<v Speaker 2>she wasn't going to jail like you said. She had kids,

0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:48.120
<v Speaker 2>so she just went along with the statement. Deskar celebrabate

0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:52.160
<v Speaker 2>it with which indicated that she saw me come to

0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.000
<v Speaker 2>the building and some young man passed me a gun

0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:57.240
<v Speaker 2>and I got the gun and I shot down you

0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:01.600
<v Speaker 2>cash shovel times inside the vest of of the building.

0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:05.520
<v Speaker 1>But which doesn't match very well with the original story

0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:08.920
<v Speaker 1>that she gave where she wasn't there when the crime

0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:11.160
<v Speaker 1>was committed, right, so that story changed.

0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:15.040
<v Speaker 2>Yes, nor doesn't match with the science or the ballistics

0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:16.880
<v Speaker 2>evidence in the case. The guy was shot with two

0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:20.639
<v Speaker 2>different weapons and he was shot outside the vessel with

0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:22.879
<v Speaker 2>the building in the street, with an ultimate shot that

0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:28.959
<v Speaker 2>killed him which she never saw, which she was inaccurate

0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.120
<v Speaker 2>and saying he was shot in the building by one gun.

0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:35.119
<v Speaker 2>The fact that they learned this before the trial, the

0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.280
<v Speaker 2>fact that they knew that her story was totally inaccurate

0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:40.560
<v Speaker 2>with science. No one ever went to her and said, hey,

0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:43.800
<v Speaker 2>you're lying. You know you saw it. How did you

0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:47.000
<v Speaker 2>miss this? They didn't care, And what they actually did

0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:49.520
<v Speaker 2>was force her even though she told them and she

0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:51.640
<v Speaker 2>didn't want to come to the trial to testify. They

0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:54.080
<v Speaker 2>locked it up on the maturity witness order, brought it

0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.760
<v Speaker 2>before the judge who was ever rapaport in Brooklyn, and

0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:58.480
<v Speaker 2>told her that she would go to jail, which is

0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.680
<v Speaker 2>on the record, if she didn't come in and cooperate

0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:05.919
<v Speaker 2>fully with the prosecutor, not truthfully, but fully, whatever the

0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:07.960
<v Speaker 2>prosecutor tells you to do, that's what you better do.

0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:21.760
<v Speaker 1>Derek. One of the things I find so fascinating. One

0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:23.159
<v Speaker 1>of the reasons I said I was honored to have

0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:28.720
<v Speaker 1>you here is because Derek became a very accomplished jailhouse lawyer.

0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:31.240
<v Speaker 1>If that's I don't know if that's the right way

0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:35.280
<v Speaker 1>of saying it. So in your second stay in prison, right,

0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:37.159
<v Speaker 1>which was twenty one years, so here it is, Derek's

0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:40.760
<v Speaker 1>fifty one years old, spent twenty seven years in prison

0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:44.640
<v Speaker 1>between the two different wrongful convictions. So that's more than

0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:48.560
<v Speaker 1>about sixty percent of your life, yes, in prison, right.

0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:50.480
<v Speaker 1>And this is one of the things that I find

0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:54.200
<v Speaker 1>so inspiring. You said something along the lines of I

0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:56.040
<v Speaker 1>didn't have time to work out and it's funny because

0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:58.000
<v Speaker 1>you look like I mean, he's a big, big strong guy.

0:18:58.040 --> 0:18:59.800
<v Speaker 1>I mean he kuy of looks like Mike Tyson honestly,

0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:02.640
<v Speaker 1>But you didn't have time to work out of them.

0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.560
<v Speaker 2>Because why, my whole life was spent on getting out.

0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:10.119
<v Speaker 2>I was an avid student of a law library. I

0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:12.399
<v Speaker 2>must spend all my working hours there if I could,

0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:14.879
<v Speaker 2>And when I didn't, you would find me probably in

0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:17.919
<v Speaker 2>the cell reading a book and educate myself on the

0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.880
<v Speaker 2>criminal justice system, the processes that take took a convicted

0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:25.159
<v Speaker 2>person to a pill and post previction. I had to

0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:28.200
<v Speaker 2>master that. I mean, if I was able to level

0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:30.480
<v Speaker 2>the playing field, then I had to be the most

0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.240
<v Speaker 2>intelligent person in the court. And that was my goal

0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:36.359
<v Speaker 2>to study, to walk in the courtroom, to be able

0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.600
<v Speaker 2>to understand the process. And I just read everything they

0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:41.439
<v Speaker 2>had in the law library. I just studied everything.

0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:44.520
<v Speaker 1>But it wasn't just that you had a team, right, Oh,

0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:44.800
<v Speaker 1>I mean.

0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:46.520
<v Speaker 2>Your team came later. But I'll tell you about my

0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:47.320
<v Speaker 2>great team.

0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:50.040
<v Speaker 1>Because I look at it. It was like a law firm

0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:51.000
<v Speaker 1>in prison.

0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:53.120
<v Speaker 2>Right and right it was. It was a very good team.

0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:55.520
<v Speaker 2>In two thousand and nine, I arrived at the Auburn

0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:59.359
<v Speaker 2>Corrections Facility MAXIM maximum security prison. I was in segregation

0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:01.639
<v Speaker 2>at the time. I was a very dark woman of

0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:05.720
<v Speaker 2>mine in conservation because I had began going to the

0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:07.800
<v Speaker 2>parole board in two thousand and nine. And when I

0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:09.800
<v Speaker 2>began going to the parole board, I had a dilemma

0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:13.200
<v Speaker 2>where they wanted you to meet the guilt and I

0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:15.520
<v Speaker 2>couldn't make guilt. And I felt.

0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:17.280
<v Speaker 1>That is a glimma. We see it over and over

0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:21.080
<v Speaker 1>again with guys in your situation who are faced with

0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:22.679
<v Speaker 1>You got to admit guilt if you want to have

0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:24.480
<v Speaker 1>any chance to get out. So, actually, when you have

0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.240
<v Speaker 1>a twenty five years a life sentences, it's a life

0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:29.639
<v Speaker 1>sentence unless you're going to admit to a crime that

0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:31.840
<v Speaker 1>you didn't commit. Otherwise it's life because the parole board

0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:33.439
<v Speaker 1>is never going to say, yeah, let this guy go

0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:35.760
<v Speaker 1>unless you come in and go I'm so sorry. I

0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:37.840
<v Speaker 1>never should have done this. I feel guilt, I feel remorse,

0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:39.919
<v Speaker 1>I feel every but it's hard to feel remorse for

0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:40.520
<v Speaker 1>something you didn't do.

0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:43.280
<v Speaker 2>It didn't do. So I'm at this dilemma temps suicide

0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:48.959
<v Speaker 2>if facillity no mercy says I faked the suicide attempt,

0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:51.439
<v Speaker 2>and throw me in a box twenty three hours a

0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:53.760
<v Speaker 2>day and you have one hour with about the size

0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:56.240
<v Speaker 2>of the day in a cage, a dog kennel type

0:20:56.280 --> 0:20:58.720
<v Speaker 2>of cage. If you can imagine, yeah, like TV right,

0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:02.280
<v Speaker 2>and you are I mean, you're just subjected to some

0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:04.520
<v Speaker 2>of the most horrendous treatment in the world because you're

0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:06.520
<v Speaker 2>around a lot of mentally ill prisons that bang and

0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:09.600
<v Speaker 2>throw feces and urine and you're subjected to a very

0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:14.240
<v Speaker 2>degrading time. So I'm there and I get to say

0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:17.479
<v Speaker 2>a letter from a law library because the cops bring

0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:20.840
<v Speaker 2>two books today you're allowed and special housing. And the

0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:22.840
<v Speaker 2>letter says, hey man, I'm glad you're here from a

0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:25.480
<v Speaker 2>god in law library. We waiting for you, you know,

0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:28.000
<v Speaker 2>to get out and we look forward to working for you.

0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:30.720
<v Speaker 2>And it's Dannyrincoar. And when I get out of the box,

0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:33.920
<v Speaker 2>a friend of mine say, hey, Danny.

0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:38.000
<v Speaker 1>Has a group and the group is called.

0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:40.360
<v Speaker 2>Actional Innocence and these guys want you to come work

0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:41.919
<v Speaker 2>with the Law Library and know you're smart, they know

0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:43.800
<v Speaker 2>you know what you're doing, and they need you to

0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:46.080
<v Speaker 2>come out here and lead the group. And at that

0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:49.119
<v Speaker 2>time they have Furnish Baccall, who's another scot seller victim

0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:51.840
<v Speaker 2>who's out now as well, is working as a clerk.

0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:54.480
<v Speaker 2>And I convince Shabaka to come to the Law Library

0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:58.359
<v Speaker 2>and we developed we drain actually the actual instance team

0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:00.240
<v Speaker 2>that Danny has, and we beat for the up. We

0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:01.640
<v Speaker 2>beef it up with knowledge, so.

0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:03.520
<v Speaker 1>It's like a law from like Ring country. Baka on

0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:05.600
<v Speaker 1>Hamilton and he got Richie Vazzario.

0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:07.879
<v Speaker 2>Okay, we got him in there to come with us.

0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:09.600
<v Speaker 2>He was a part of our team. And we got

0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:13.240
<v Speaker 2>a nice team of guys who was serious about their innocence.

0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:16.800
<v Speaker 2>Cal Harris, who ultimately just beat his beat his his

0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:18.399
<v Speaker 2>wife's murdered up the state. He was in prison for

0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:20.680
<v Speaker 2>killing his wife that he didn't do, had three trials

0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:22.320
<v Speaker 2>with Justice honor. He was a part of a team

0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:25.560
<v Speaker 2>and we would get to the law library and we

0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:28.840
<v Speaker 2>would study each other cases, help each other out and

0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:31.640
<v Speaker 2>help people in the population out. But what we would

0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:35.119
<v Speaker 2>do was be the most biggest critic on each other's case.

0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:37.600
<v Speaker 2>And if we thought that there was a question ask

0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:40.000
<v Speaker 2>to a witness credibility, we would bring it up. And

0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:42.320
<v Speaker 2>we thought they was a floor. And what I brought

0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:44.680
<v Speaker 2>to the teams, I said, look, here's the problem I'm

0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:50.119
<v Speaker 2>having is that pr we need to get public relations,

0:22:50.280 --> 0:22:55.920
<v Speaker 2>public media involved in letting society know that we exist.

0:22:56.600 --> 0:22:58.480
<v Speaker 2>And you know, they thought I was crazy at the time.

0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:00.720
<v Speaker 2>I said, I'm gonna get my family to go do

0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:03.679
<v Speaker 2>a rally outside of the Brooklyn Supreme Court. And I

0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:05.679
<v Speaker 2>had a motion at the time, and I sent my

0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:08.560
<v Speaker 2>family down to do a rally and it wound up

0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:11.520
<v Speaker 2>on the front page, well on big page whatever it was,

0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:14.359
<v Speaker 2>in the daily news, and it says inmates would go

0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:18.159
<v Speaker 2>free if the court here is witnesses. And having that

0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:21.720
<v Speaker 2>article around the Dairy News for the AI team was

0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:25.000
<v Speaker 2>a whole different level of organizing. Now Here are guys

0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:27.520
<v Speaker 2>who were downtrodden, who had been beat up by the

0:23:27.560 --> 0:23:30.479
<v Speaker 2>criminal justice system motion denied Tony, and they knew they

0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:32.920
<v Speaker 2>was innocent. There was no doubt that were innocent. There

0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:35.760
<v Speaker 2>was overwhelming evidence in each of our cases to prove that.

0:23:36.040 --> 0:23:39.240
<v Speaker 2>But we were being treated, as you know, as if we

0:23:39.240 --> 0:23:42.159
<v Speaker 2>didn't exist, that we didn't count, that the law didn't

0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:45.280
<v Speaker 2>apply to us, because society thought we were bad people,

0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:48.000
<v Speaker 2>that we wasn't human beings who deserve to be treated fair.

0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:52.040
<v Speaker 2>And when that article came out, it showed the team

0:23:52.200 --> 0:23:54.959
<v Speaker 2>how much power we have if we can organize our

0:23:55.040 --> 0:23:58.560
<v Speaker 2>families or in society to make noise. And we did that.

0:23:58.800 --> 0:24:00.920
<v Speaker 1>So now you're organizing insight and outside.

0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:03.920
<v Speaker 2>All right, So what we decided to strategize why to

0:24:03.960 --> 0:24:06.800
<v Speaker 2>contact Lonnie Sorry, who was a PR guy that worked

0:24:06.840 --> 0:24:09.680
<v Speaker 2>through the Marty tanklerf case. I reached out to Lonnie

0:24:09.840 --> 0:24:12.359
<v Speaker 2>and I sent them five hundred dollars, and I said, Lonnie,

0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:16.080
<v Speaker 2>look it's all I got man, and guy's my commentsary money. Hey,

0:24:16.200 --> 0:24:18.720
<v Speaker 2>I need the eight but we need you. And my

0:24:18.800 --> 0:24:21.880
<v Speaker 2>wife called Lonnie and said, Lonnie, well, Derek says you're

0:24:21.960 --> 0:24:24.680
<v Speaker 2>organizing a rally outside the city hall. And he says,

0:24:24.720 --> 0:24:26.960
<v Speaker 2>I didn't tell Derek I was organized in a rally

0:24:27.160 --> 0:24:29.919
<v Speaker 2>outside city Hall. And then I said, have everybody family

0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:32.080
<v Speaker 2>called him. So Lonnie was getting a phone calls from all

0:24:32.119 --> 0:24:34.960
<v Speaker 2>our families and friends, and he told my wife, what

0:24:35.000 --> 0:24:37.800
<v Speaker 2>are Derek doing to me? He got people calling me

0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:40.200
<v Speaker 2>saying I'm giving a rally. But he was convinced to

0:24:40.200 --> 0:24:42.320
<v Speaker 2>give the rally and it was our first one. We

0:24:42.359 --> 0:24:44.399
<v Speaker 2>was all in prison. Lonnie went out there with our

0:24:44.440 --> 0:24:46.960
<v Speaker 2>family about fifty people, and we was able to see

0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:48.720
<v Speaker 2>the pitches and see the news and the way he

0:24:48.800 --> 0:24:51.040
<v Speaker 2>made of it, and he empowered us, let us know

0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:54.240
<v Speaker 2>that you know, people did care about the wrong he

0:24:54.320 --> 0:24:56.600
<v Speaker 2>convicted because we was on the steps of city Hall

0:24:56.760 --> 0:24:59.600
<v Speaker 2>and had a nice turnout. So that began us really

0:24:59.720 --> 0:25:02.200
<v Speaker 2>high in a sense of power, noring what we can

0:25:02.280 --> 0:25:07.040
<v Speaker 2>do with with just you know, our families and educating

0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:10.320
<v Speaker 2>people on what's happening to us? So I mean doing

0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:14.359
<v Speaker 2>that process. I began to write lawyers asking for help.

0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:16.840
<v Speaker 2>Lonnie was helping me. He was very much an advocate

0:25:16.880 --> 0:25:19.320
<v Speaker 2>of mind at this time, helping me. And Jonathan Ellistein

0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:22.160
<v Speaker 2>from Elstein and Grossman began wrote me back and said

0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:25.440
<v Speaker 2>that he was sickened about what happened to me, being

0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:27.440
<v Speaker 2>a lawyer for seventeen years. Think he said. He said

0:25:27.480 --> 0:25:30.160
<v Speaker 2>that he was really troubled how the course was strong,

0:25:30.320 --> 0:25:32.640
<v Speaker 2>my evidence of instance in the garbage, and he said,

0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:34.240
<v Speaker 2>I think you should go to the media with this.

0:25:34.800 --> 0:25:37.080
<v Speaker 2>And I sent them a check for fifteen hundred dollars

0:25:37.320 --> 0:25:40.280
<v Speaker 2>and said this is all I got left. Would you

0:25:40.280 --> 0:25:42.080
<v Speaker 2>be my lawyer? Said, I'm sending you your check back

0:25:42.400 --> 0:25:45.399
<v Speaker 2>because I can't take your money. Your emotion is immaculate.

0:25:45.480 --> 0:25:47.600
<v Speaker 2>But what I will do is write a friende to

0:25:47.640 --> 0:25:49.879
<v Speaker 2>the court brief and asks to court the grant you

0:25:50.000 --> 0:25:53.080
<v Speaker 2>hearing on your evidence of innocent said.

0:25:52.920 --> 0:25:55.200
<v Speaker 1>Your emotion is immaculate. Yes, you must have felt pretty

0:25:55.200 --> 0:25:56.840
<v Speaker 1>good about that I did. I did? And what kind

0:25:56.840 --> 0:25:59.240
<v Speaker 1>of education did you have before this? G. D.

0:26:00.920 --> 0:26:04.040
<v Speaker 2>Blackstone School of Law, even the college courses they had,

0:26:04.080 --> 0:26:06.199
<v Speaker 2>You know, I just couldn't see myself spending all my

0:26:06.200 --> 0:26:07.720
<v Speaker 2>work when I was in college when I had to

0:26:08.080 --> 0:26:11.080
<v Speaker 2>actually learn law, and it wasn't teaching law courses there,

0:26:11.119 --> 0:26:12.840
<v Speaker 2>so I had no interest in going to college. I

0:26:12.920 --> 0:26:16.400
<v Speaker 2>had to be in the law library. But and at

0:26:16.400 --> 0:26:19.600
<v Speaker 2>that point, when mister Elistein wrote me back, I felt great.

0:26:19.800 --> 0:26:25.600
<v Speaker 2>And the judge denied my motion. He found that there

0:26:25.680 --> 0:26:28.359
<v Speaker 2>was a law of court and jurisdiction that he couldn't

0:26:28.400 --> 0:26:31.280
<v Speaker 2>overturn the previous judges who denied previous four forties and

0:26:31.440 --> 0:26:33.399
<v Speaker 2>three thirty point thirty, So he was kind in the

0:26:33.440 --> 0:26:36.560
<v Speaker 2>buying that he would not reverse conviction. At that point,

0:26:36.680 --> 0:26:40.439
<v Speaker 2>Jonathan Nelstein became my attorney. He said that he would

0:26:40.480 --> 0:26:43.520
<v Speaker 2>file leave to the Tell Division on my behalf free

0:26:43.560 --> 0:26:50.000
<v Speaker 2>of charge, and he also decided to write a letter

0:26:50.000 --> 0:26:52.760
<v Speaker 2>to the Parole boar on my behalf. And he wrote

0:26:52.760 --> 0:26:55.800
<v Speaker 2>a very touching letter to the parole Board and basically

0:26:55.880 --> 0:26:59.679
<v Speaker 2>told the parole board that society has no interest and

0:26:59.760 --> 0:27:02.439
<v Speaker 2>keep an innocent man in prison. So he said, this

0:27:02.520 --> 0:27:04.719
<v Speaker 2>man is not a risk of society because he's innocent,

0:27:04.960 --> 0:27:06.960
<v Speaker 2>and he outlined all the evidents that we had to

0:27:07.000 --> 0:27:09.400
<v Speaker 2>prove that I was innocent, and he basically invited them

0:27:09.400 --> 0:27:12.639
<v Speaker 2>to take a look. The parole board released me based

0:27:12.680 --> 0:27:15.360
<v Speaker 2>on a letter, amongst other things, and wished me good

0:27:15.440 --> 0:27:20.000
<v Speaker 2>luck and prove my innocence. This is what year we in,

0:27:20.000 --> 0:27:21.960
<v Speaker 2>twenty eleven, December.

0:27:21.800 --> 0:27:24.399
<v Speaker 1>Twenty eleven, So you'd been in for twenty one years

0:27:24.400 --> 0:27:26.760
<v Speaker 1>on the second wrongful conviction at this point, right, a

0:27:26.760 --> 0:27:29.720
<v Speaker 1>total of twenty seven. Yeah, there's only three cases I

0:27:29.760 --> 0:27:33.920
<v Speaker 1>know of in the hundreds of exonerations that we've had

0:27:34.240 --> 0:27:38.120
<v Speaker 1>Innocence Project and other projects where there's been somebody who's

0:27:38.160 --> 0:27:42.679
<v Speaker 1>been wrongfully convicted twice, there's only three.

0:27:53.400 --> 0:27:58.359
<v Speaker 2>So I'm home and I'm busting my butt to find

0:27:58.359 --> 0:28:02.119
<v Speaker 2>a job. Contact Scott brut Snyd. I'm a previous lawyers. Hit,

0:28:02.160 --> 0:28:04.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm home. You know, I got a para legal degree

0:28:04.119 --> 0:28:06.120
<v Speaker 2>and I think post conviction is the place to go.

0:28:06.280 --> 0:28:08.000
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of guys left in it as innocent.

0:28:08.040 --> 0:28:10.399
<v Speaker 2>We should work in these cases, and we started working.

0:28:11.640 --> 0:28:13.840
<v Speaker 2>My wife contacts me one day and say she gets

0:28:13.840 --> 0:28:18.320
<v Speaker 2>an email. We'll share emails, and some investigat or detective

0:28:18.800 --> 0:28:20.840
<v Speaker 2>contacted it and said they wanted to get in touch

0:28:20.880 --> 0:28:23.360
<v Speaker 2>with you. I said, I'm going to Canada now, I'm

0:28:23.400 --> 0:28:24.560
<v Speaker 2>out of here. What do you mean they want to

0:28:24.600 --> 0:28:26.240
<v Speaker 2>get in touch with me? I don't want to speak

0:28:26.280 --> 0:28:28.440
<v Speaker 2>to nobody, but didn't want to talk to me about

0:28:28.480 --> 0:28:34.399
<v Speaker 2>now me. I'm thinking that. So I'm scared and I

0:28:34.480 --> 0:28:36.560
<v Speaker 2>call a guy and he says, no, I work for

0:28:36.600 --> 0:28:40.600
<v Speaker 2>a lawyer, a boy the name of p Assessment. He says, uh,

0:28:41.040 --> 0:28:44.000
<v Speaker 2>Pierre wants to speak to you about Louis Scott Seller.

0:28:45.000 --> 0:28:47.960
<v Speaker 2>And I says, okay, what do you want to meet

0:28:47.960 --> 0:28:50.800
<v Speaker 2>me at? He says, up in the bronx by the courthouse.

0:28:50.880 --> 0:28:53.280
<v Speaker 2>I go up and meet this guy. And you know,

0:28:53.440 --> 0:28:55.280
<v Speaker 2>I looks up, you know, I'm across the street, you know,

0:28:55.400 --> 0:28:58.000
<v Speaker 2>checking it out the scenario seeing me first, and I

0:28:58.040 --> 0:29:01.000
<v Speaker 2>see a guy and I called. He picks up the phone,

0:29:01.280 --> 0:29:03.080
<v Speaker 2>so I'm on my waist is when I'm over here waiting.

0:29:03.120 --> 0:29:05.040
<v Speaker 2>He looks like a hipster, you know, he got a

0:29:05.040 --> 0:29:06.920
<v Speaker 2>trench coat on. I said, well, you don't too much

0:29:06.960 --> 0:29:09.040
<v Speaker 2>look like a cop because he got you know, hippie

0:29:09.080 --> 0:29:11.320
<v Speaker 2>kind of looked with him. Said maybe I can trust

0:29:11.320 --> 0:29:13.760
<v Speaker 2>this guy. So I'll go over and introduce myself. And

0:29:13.800 --> 0:29:18.480
<v Speaker 2>he tells me that he has a prison inmate who

0:29:18.480 --> 0:29:21.640
<v Speaker 2>will be released in two weeks and that the DA's

0:29:21.720 --> 0:29:25.320
<v Speaker 2>office in King's County agreed that Lewis Scott Teller framed

0:29:25.320 --> 0:29:30.960
<v Speaker 2>this guy. And for me, it's like wow, like somebody

0:29:31.120 --> 0:29:34.560
<v Speaker 2>was finally able to establish that this cop has been

0:29:34.600 --> 0:29:37.480
<v Speaker 2>doing the things we've been arguing for a long time.

0:29:37.680 --> 0:29:41.640
<v Speaker 2>While I say we, I am thinking about Chabaka, Alvin, Jeannette,

0:29:41.720 --> 0:29:45.000
<v Speaker 2>Robert Hill, Jarard Austin, all these guys, Nelson Cruz, these

0:29:45.040 --> 0:29:47.720
<v Speaker 2>guys who I know that he framed personally know that

0:29:47.760 --> 0:29:50.680
<v Speaker 2>he's framed, and I'm saying, wow, we have an opportunity.

0:29:51.560 --> 0:29:54.080
<v Speaker 2>So in the course of this, he asked me about

0:29:54.080 --> 0:29:55.840
<v Speaker 2>my case and I said, I have a lawyer, but

0:29:55.920 --> 0:29:58.360
<v Speaker 2>I introduced him to Jeanette Hill in Austin, who he

0:29:58.400 --> 0:30:01.600
<v Speaker 2>has gotten zonerated as of now they've been as HONERATD

0:30:02.120 --> 0:30:06.160
<v Speaker 2>And I tell him about those guys in Teresa goldmanz

0:30:06.360 --> 0:30:10.320
<v Speaker 2>how Scar Seller used hunting six different homicides and he

0:30:10.480 --> 0:30:12.280
<v Speaker 2>was surprised to even hear that because he didn't know

0:30:12.280 --> 0:30:15.160
<v Speaker 2>about that at the time. And he says, okay, well,

0:30:15.840 --> 0:30:18.040
<v Speaker 2>I can't tell you the name of my client that's

0:30:18.080 --> 0:30:20.360
<v Speaker 2>going to be released, but in two weeks they're gonna

0:30:20.400 --> 0:30:24.280
<v Speaker 2>release and please you know, contact me again. In two

0:30:24.280 --> 0:30:28.200
<v Speaker 2>weeks David rant was released. The first guy who was

0:30:28.240 --> 0:30:31.200
<v Speaker 2>ever able to establish the scar seller had told the

0:30:31.280 --> 0:30:33.600
<v Speaker 2>witness to pick out the guy with the hook nose,

0:30:34.040 --> 0:30:37.320
<v Speaker 2>which was how he identified Ranta and then established what

0:30:37.360 --> 0:30:40.000
<v Speaker 2>we've been saying, that this is the tactics and the

0:30:40.040 --> 0:30:43.960
<v Speaker 2>strategy this cop used to convict innocent people. So after

0:30:44.120 --> 0:30:47.840
<v Speaker 2>having learned this and David Ranta's release, I run into

0:30:47.880 --> 0:30:50.400
<v Speaker 2>a reporter by the name of Francis Robus from a

0:30:50.480 --> 0:30:54.400
<v Speaker 2>New York Times and Robus is investigating Julio Assevedo case

0:30:54.760 --> 0:30:58.080
<v Speaker 2>and she calling us to learn more about Acevedo. Acevedo

0:30:58.200 --> 0:30:59.680
<v Speaker 2>was a guy that was accused of killing the real

0:30:59.720 --> 0:31:02.840
<v Speaker 2>fifty he sent originally who fifty cent got his name from.

0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:05.640
<v Speaker 2>And I got Acevedo out of prison on the four

0:31:05.640 --> 0:31:08.880
<v Speaker 2>to forty motion got his judgment vacated and released because

0:31:09.120 --> 0:31:11.600
<v Speaker 2>he was kidnapped by drug dealers made to kill the

0:31:11.640 --> 0:31:15.360
<v Speaker 2>fifty cent It was under duress, and once the judge

0:31:15.440 --> 0:31:17.440
<v Speaker 2>charged the jury, if he can prove he did it underressed,

0:31:17.560 --> 0:31:19.720
<v Speaker 2>they had to find him not guilty. I got the evidence,

0:31:19.720 --> 0:31:22.040
<v Speaker 2>got the guy to prison. So Robers wanted to know

0:31:22.080 --> 0:31:25.200
<v Speaker 2>who was Assevedo, and he had a car accident in Brooklyn.

0:31:25.280 --> 0:31:28.120
<v Speaker 2>Three ascetic jews had died. His face was all over

0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:31.920
<v Speaker 2>the news recently at that time. And I got him

0:31:31.920 --> 0:31:35.200
<v Speaker 2>to surrender himself, come in and deal with the case,

0:31:35.360 --> 0:31:38.680
<v Speaker 2>don't run, because it wasn't his best interest. And she

0:31:38.840 --> 0:31:42.840
<v Speaker 2>asked what Why would he be afraid of the cops.

0:31:43.320 --> 0:31:46.520
<v Speaker 2>Why would this guy be so afraid of the cops.

0:31:46.560 --> 0:31:48.760
<v Speaker 2>And I said, look, here's a guy that was arrested

0:31:48.760 --> 0:31:51.360
<v Speaker 2>proviows he told the cops the truth, how he was kidnapped,

0:31:51.360 --> 0:31:53.960
<v Speaker 2>Pistolhooper made the committed murder. They didn't believe him. He

0:31:54.040 --> 0:31:56.280
<v Speaker 2>spent ten years in prison. Had I not got him,

0:31:56.320 --> 0:31:58.680
<v Speaker 2>might he probably would have still been there? I said,

0:31:59.000 --> 0:32:01.560
<v Speaker 2>is a guy that's a fright me. I'm a guy,

0:32:01.840 --> 0:32:03.920
<v Speaker 2>big guy, but I'm afraid of the cops. Cops framed

0:32:03.920 --> 0:32:04.760
<v Speaker 2>me twice.

0:32:05.080 --> 0:32:06.760
<v Speaker 1>And you would be afraid of the cops if they

0:32:06.760 --> 0:32:08.800
<v Speaker 1>frame you once? I mean absolutely.

0:32:09.040 --> 0:32:11.280
<v Speaker 2>And I said, look, I was just informed by a

0:32:11.360 --> 0:32:14.600
<v Speaker 2>lawyer that in two weeks the cop that framed me

0:32:14.640 --> 0:32:17.080
<v Speaker 2>and others is for the first time going to be

0:32:17.080 --> 0:32:20.200
<v Speaker 2>revealed as being that type of cop. I said, if

0:32:20.200 --> 0:32:22.560
<v Speaker 2>it happens. Get in touch with me. I'll give you

0:32:22.640 --> 0:32:25.640
<v Speaker 2>the evidence to establish that there's others. And we made

0:32:25.640 --> 0:32:28.120
<v Speaker 2>a deal, and in two weeks Ranter was released. I

0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:31.320
<v Speaker 2>got a call from Francis Rovers and says, hey, you

0:32:31.440 --> 0:32:34.160
<v Speaker 2>got that evidence that you was just talking basically, And

0:32:34.440 --> 0:32:38.160
<v Speaker 2>I introduced her to Jeanette and she she did a

0:32:38.280 --> 0:32:42.000
<v Speaker 2>very good investigation, and the New York Times got the

0:32:42.120 --> 0:32:44.880
<v Speaker 2>King's County Die's officer on the charles Es then to

0:32:44.960 --> 0:32:48.720
<v Speaker 2>agree to look at fifty five of scar Seller cases

0:32:49.640 --> 0:32:50.760
<v Speaker 2>fifty five at that time.

0:32:50.880 --> 0:32:53.000
<v Speaker 1>Fifty five people. I mean, when you think you know

0:32:53.040 --> 0:32:55.800
<v Speaker 1>and everything is it's so hard to imagine. I mean,

0:32:55.840 --> 0:32:58.400
<v Speaker 1>even what one person could go through, but fifty five

0:32:58.560 --> 0:33:01.840
<v Speaker 1>is such a huge number. Yes, one person could cause

0:33:01.920 --> 0:33:04.920
<v Speaker 1>that much destruction and damage to so many people's lives.

0:33:05.000 --> 0:33:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Ironians identification, false confessions, fail to turn over discovery. This

0:33:10.040 --> 0:33:12.280
<v Speaker 2>is our criminal justice system, man. When you deal with

0:33:12.320 --> 0:33:17.200
<v Speaker 2>the ones that we can fix, like Ironians identifications, there

0:33:17.240 --> 0:33:19.160
<v Speaker 2>have been studies that you know about and I know

0:33:19.240 --> 0:33:23.280
<v Speaker 2>about that says that we can fix Eronianus identifications by

0:33:23.280 --> 0:33:26.520
<v Speaker 2>having something called double blind lineups. Well, the cops doesn't

0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:29.360
<v Speaker 2>know who the suspect is, so there's no fear that

0:33:29.440 --> 0:33:32.280
<v Speaker 2>they will sugges to pick out number three or pick

0:33:32.280 --> 0:33:33.360
<v Speaker 2>out the guy with the hook nose.

0:33:34.480 --> 0:33:35.680
<v Speaker 1>I want to go back that for a seconds. I'm

0:33:35.680 --> 0:33:37.800
<v Speaker 1>glad you brought that up. So the Supreme Court actually

0:33:37.800 --> 0:33:40.520
<v Speaker 1>took on this issue. Yes, and I'm reading from a

0:33:40.520 --> 0:33:42.920
<v Speaker 1>book I consider like the Bible. It's just called Convicting

0:33:42.960 --> 0:33:46.320
<v Speaker 1>the Innocent by Brandon Garrett. Shout out to him, Shout out, Brandon. So.

0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:50.320
<v Speaker 1>In Manson versus Breathway, a case involving a prison custodian Naemanson,

0:33:50.400 --> 0:33:53.360
<v Speaker 1>not the famous serial, the US Supreme Court noted the

0:33:53.440 --> 0:33:57.400
<v Speaker 1>dangers of suggestive identification procedures. The Court had long recognized

0:33:57.440 --> 0:34:01.440
<v Speaker 1>quote the vagaries of eyewitness identification where the annals quote

0:34:01.480 --> 0:34:03.800
<v Speaker 1>the annals of criminal law are rife with instances of

0:34:03.880 --> 0:34:08.600
<v Speaker 1>mistake and identification. And in that decision, the Court affirmed

0:34:08.600 --> 0:34:11.320
<v Speaker 1>that the due process clause of the Constitution, which everybody's

0:34:11.320 --> 0:34:14.480
<v Speaker 1>familiar with, embraces the right to be free from unduly

0:34:14.520 --> 0:34:19.479
<v Speaker 1>suggestive eyewitness identification procedures. Okay, now we're on the right track,

0:34:19.560 --> 0:34:23.920
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Supremes. Right, Okay, such as showing the eyewitness

0:34:23.920 --> 0:34:26.640
<v Speaker 1>a single photograph of the suspect or telling the witness

0:34:26.640 --> 0:34:28.840
<v Speaker 1>whom to identify in a lineup, yes, which we know

0:34:28.960 --> 0:34:32.320
<v Speaker 1>has happened over and over again, including in some ways

0:34:32.320 --> 0:34:32.919
<v Speaker 1>in your case.

0:34:33.040 --> 0:34:33.279
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

0:34:33.800 --> 0:34:38.600
<v Speaker 1>However, and this is where it all falls apart. However,

0:34:38.719 --> 0:34:41.200
<v Speaker 1>the Court and Manson, in the same rule added a

0:34:41.239 --> 0:34:45.080
<v Speaker 1>caveat that undercut the power of that holding, because they

0:34:45.080 --> 0:34:48.000
<v Speaker 1>found that even if the police engage in suggestive procedures

0:34:48.160 --> 0:34:52.400
<v Speaker 1>so potentially suggestive that they violate due process, the identification

0:34:52.520 --> 0:34:55.040
<v Speaker 1>may still be admitted at trial if it is otherwise

0:34:55.120 --> 0:34:59.800
<v Speaker 1>quote reliable. Yes, I mean that is just I mean okay,

0:34:59.840 --> 0:35:02.239
<v Speaker 1>So so they said you can't do this, but it's

0:35:02.320 --> 0:35:03.000
<v Speaker 1>okay if you do.

0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:03.439
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

0:35:03.480 --> 0:35:05.360
<v Speaker 1>Basically that's what they said, right, yes.

0:35:05.320 --> 0:35:09.120
<v Speaker 2>Yes, basically because who determines reliability number one? And they

0:35:09.120 --> 0:35:12.800
<v Speaker 2>didn't set for for tests to determine the reliability. But

0:35:12.960 --> 0:35:16.359
<v Speaker 2>they says, if there's an independent source. So now what

0:35:16.400 --> 0:35:19.040
<v Speaker 2>they do is they instruct the witness, Hey, hey, you've

0:35:19.080 --> 0:35:21.399
<v Speaker 2>seen a guy before, right, it was seen before. Yeah,

0:35:21.440 --> 0:35:23.640
<v Speaker 2>I've seen him once or twice in the supermarket with

0:35:23.719 --> 0:35:26.760
<v Speaker 2>his mother, and they make that the independent source. However,

0:35:27.360 --> 0:35:29.880
<v Speaker 2>if the person could have identified you, then when the

0:35:29.880 --> 0:35:32.799
<v Speaker 2>cops first accident who committed the crime. He should have said, Hey,

0:35:32.840 --> 0:35:35.279
<v Speaker 2>a guy that I saw on the supermarket with his mother,

0:35:35.880 --> 0:35:38.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, was a guy that committed his crime. That's

0:35:38.239 --> 0:35:41.600
<v Speaker 2>the problem. A lot of times when they say something suggestive,

0:35:41.800 --> 0:35:44.120
<v Speaker 2>they allow them to use a reason that they believe

0:35:44.200 --> 0:35:46.560
<v Speaker 2>is reliable that no reasonable person would find to be.

0:35:46.600 --> 0:35:48.480
<v Speaker 1>Liiable, which they can invent. And we all know, so

0:35:48.520 --> 0:35:51.600
<v Speaker 1>basically that that's a that's a ruling that has to

0:35:51.640 --> 0:35:55.560
<v Speaker 1>be amended. Yes, because it's so, it's so, it's really

0:35:55.760 --> 0:35:59.520
<v Speaker 1>such a terrible missed opportunity where the Supreme Court recognized

0:35:59.560 --> 0:36:03.560
<v Speaker 1>this problem that has been responsible for so many wrongful convictions,

0:36:03.600 --> 0:36:07.120
<v Speaker 1>including yours. Yes, but then they undercut their own decision

0:36:07.400 --> 0:36:10.680
<v Speaker 1>and made it basically toothless and meaningless. Yes, and so

0:36:10.680 --> 0:36:12.759
<v Speaker 1>so then we wind up in the situation that we're in.

0:36:12.960 --> 0:36:15.760
<v Speaker 2>I think that the audience should work on with us

0:36:16.040 --> 0:36:20.000
<v Speaker 2>putting prosecutors in office to understand the dangers of wrong

0:36:20.040 --> 0:36:23.160
<v Speaker 2>for conviction. In Brooklyn, we had a prosecutor run on

0:36:23.200 --> 0:36:27.320
<v Speaker 2>that platform. We need you know what I mean, shout

0:36:27.320 --> 0:36:29.279
<v Speaker 2>out to him. One of the best there ever was

0:36:29.560 --> 0:36:32.960
<v Speaker 2>twenty something wrong for convictions and overturns. Yes, over turn

0:36:33.040 --> 0:36:36.440
<v Speaker 2>in two years. We need prosecutors who are willing to

0:36:36.560 --> 0:36:38.960
<v Speaker 2>understand that a part of their job, a part of

0:36:38.960 --> 0:36:41.759
<v Speaker 2>their role, it's quasi jd issue, you know, candid to

0:36:41.800 --> 0:36:44.240
<v Speaker 2>the court, fitess to the queues. And we get that,

0:36:44.480 --> 0:36:47.160
<v Speaker 2>then we can change the system all around the country.

0:36:47.160 --> 0:36:49.840
<v Speaker 2>We just need prosecutors who just don't believe in locking

0:36:49.840 --> 0:36:51.960
<v Speaker 2>them up, throwing the key away, but in justice.

0:36:56.640 --> 0:36:59.279
<v Speaker 1>Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

0:36:59.320 --> 0:37:03.000
<v Speaker 1>get your podcast. It really helps. And I'm a proud

0:37:03.040 --> 0:37:05.600
<v Speaker 1>donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll

0:37:05.680 --> 0:37:09.080
<v Speaker 1>join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

0:37:09.200 --> 0:37:13.120
<v Speaker 1>to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org

0:37:13.239 --> 0:37:16.040
<v Speaker 1>to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like

0:37:16.080 --> 0:37:19.040
<v Speaker 1>to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

0:37:19.360 --> 0:37:21.680
<v Speaker 1>The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

0:37:21.680 --> 0:37:24.719
<v Speaker 1>nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

0:37:24.760 --> 0:37:29.560
<v Speaker 1>Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

0:37:29.960 --> 0:37:33.000
<v Speaker 1>Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

0:37:33.040 --> 0:37:36.600
<v Speaker 1>for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one