1 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: I came from a beautiful neighborhood. I had a beautiful life. 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: I went to sleep because September seventh was the first 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: day of my high school year. I was going to 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: be a senior. 5 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 2: At twenty two, I was set to start college. 6 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: I woke up and my life was never the same again. 7 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 2: Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw 8 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 2: freedom ever since after that. 9 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: It's like roach Mota. Once you get in, you and 10 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: I can't now, this is wrongful conviction with Jason Flummer today, 11 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: I'm honored, and I don't use that word lightly to 12 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: have as our guest, Derek Hamilton. Welcome to the show. 13 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 14 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: Glad you're here. Derek. Your story is extraordinary in so 15 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: many ways, and I don't even know where to begin, 16 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: but I guess we should really take it back to 17 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: the beginning and we'll save the reveal like they do 18 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: in Hollywood, to what you're doing now and what you've 19 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: accomplished in your life over extraordinary obstacles that are almost 20 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: unimaginable obstacles. But let's go back to the beginning and 21 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: talk about how this began. You're a New Yorker born 22 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: and bred like me Brooklyn from Brooklyn. Okay, Brooklyn in 23 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: the house, that's right, all right. 24 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 2: Bephie Stubbins in neighborhood with violence was know, you know, 25 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 2: it was very tough housing project. I grew up in 26 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 2: Lafia Gardens where it was kind of like one block 27 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 2: with eighty thousand people on it, you know, in a 28 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 2: housing project. And if you got a basketball, you had 29 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 2: to go outside and fight for your basketball. If your 30 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: mother father bought your pet sneakers, you had to fight 31 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 2: for your sneakers. It was very depressant. And every little 32 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 2: kid wants what the next little kid has, and if 33 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 2: your family don't has it, avotate to try to take it. 34 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 2: So it was tough stuff. 35 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: And you had some early scraps with the law. Why 36 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: don't you talk about it? 37 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I was a young kid about sixteen and seventeen 38 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 2: and got into a life of crime, attempted to rob 39 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 2: someone with the prison for that. Ultimately I was released 40 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 2: and I was out. Some older guys had committed robbery 41 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 2: of a bread truck and actually killed the truck driver. 42 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: I was outside that day when the crime happened. 43 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: Did you see it? 44 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 2: I seen the action. I actually seen it, and actually 45 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 2: the guys that asked me to look out for them 46 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 2: if the cops came, just whistle or something of that sort. 47 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 2: The next day, walking down the block, the police officers 48 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 2: picked me up and they don't question me about the crime, 49 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: but they just take a picture of me and asked 50 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: me at my Derek Haunton and I said they knew 51 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 2: me previously from the incident that I had attempted robbery, 52 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 2: so I took none of it. I left out the precinct. 53 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 2: One week later, they arrested me for the murder of 54 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 2: James Wolf, and it just stunned me because I know 55 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 2: I didn't kill mister Wolf. I know I wasn't involved 56 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: in the crime. But what I learned is that one 57 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 2: of the older guys who actually committed the crime, who 58 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 2: car was identified as the car seen fleeing from the scene, 59 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 2: was able to convince the police officers that he loaned 60 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 2: the car to me, a seventeen year old kid with 61 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 2: no license with anything, and the cops actually believed that story. 62 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:22,839 Speaker 1: And we've seen this in the number of cases where 63 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: the actual killer is and you could say here being smart, right, 64 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: they know that their way out is dependent on somebody else. 65 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I was from the housing project 66 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: right where the crime happened. He wasn't, so it seemed 67 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 2: more obvious that I was likely suspect to get But 68 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 2: in the event, I go to a trial and during 69 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 2: the course of the trial, my lawyer tells me that 70 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 2: there's a witness outside in the hallway who called her 71 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: out and explaining to my lawyer that she would refuse 72 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 2: to testify. Her name was Patricia Lee. She said the 73 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 2: cops had forced her to go into grand jury and 74 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 2: identify me as someone she saw outside the housing project 75 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 2: who spoke to her after the murder happened and said, 76 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 2: I panicked and I thought I shocked the guy in 77 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 2: the arm. She said she would refuse to testify. She 78 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 2: couldn't get up on the stand and tell that lie. 79 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 2: My lawyer came back in and reported this to the 80 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: court and said to the court there's a witness in 81 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: the hallway that we never knew existed who said this 82 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 2: to me. And then the court said, well, let's bring 83 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 2: the witness. And the witness comes in and the prosecutor 84 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 2: asks for something called a Soroyis hearing in New York, 85 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 2: and the Sorois hearing is people versus Croys. And what 86 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 2: this hearing does is that it puts the burden a 87 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 2: proof on the prosecutor to prove by clean, convincing evidence 88 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 2: that I waived my right to confront the witness a 89 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: trial if me or someone acting for me made the 90 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 2: witness of law for refuse to testify. So the judge 91 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 2: held this Croys hearing, and the witness testified that it 92 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 2: was the cops who in fact threatened her and made 93 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 2: her lie to grand jury, that me and nobody acting 94 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 2: for me ever had any involvement with her whatsoever. In fact, 95 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: we never knew she testified in the grand jury. 96 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 1: So the judge those hearings are seek right. 97 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 2: So the judge ruled that day that he could not 98 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 2: allow the prosecutor to use this witness grand jury testimony 99 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 2: against me as evidence in chief. In fact, he had 100 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: heard not one iota of evidence that me or anybody 101 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: acting for me did anything wrong. 102 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: Right, because the case was hinged on the eyewitness testimony, 103 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: which we know is one of the most powerful things 104 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: in the criminal justice system. 105 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 2: Absolutely right. 106 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: So now you're feeling like, okay, can I go home now? 107 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: Right day? 108 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: And they drenched for one day, and he said you 109 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: got to tomorrow to come up with something and released 110 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 2: this guy. We returned to court the next day and 111 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 2: the judge said his previous ruling the day before troubled 112 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 2: him all night, that he felt that the only one 113 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 2: that would benefit from the witness refusal to testify is 114 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 2: me or somebody acting for me, and that because of that, 115 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 2: he wouldn't allow the prosecutor to use the grand jury 116 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 2: testimony against me as evidence in chief and find that 117 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 2: I weighed my right to confrontation. At that moment, the 118 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 2: lawyer that I had candas Curt, very nice lady, asked me, 119 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 2: did I understand what was going on in the proceedings? 120 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 2: I said somewhat, And she says, kid, it is time 121 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 2: for you to learn what's going on. And she gave 122 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 2: me two cases and said you need to read those overnight. 123 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 2: But in the event, she told the judge that she 124 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 2: would have to testify and become a witness, and she 125 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 2: would have to take the stand to explain what the 126 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 2: witness told her in the hallway, in the bathroom, or 127 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 2: whatever the conversation happened, and had to, you know, show 128 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 2: that there's no evidence that me and anybody did anything wrong. 129 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 2: The judge reopened hearing, my lawyer testified, and he still 130 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 2: stuck by his decision. I was convicted based on the 131 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 2: grandjury testimonies of Patricia Lee. I was sentence to twenty 132 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 2: five years of life in prison for murder I did 133 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 2: not commit. And five years later the Appel Division second 134 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 2: apartment in the case ruled that the lower court was wrong, 135 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 2: that they violated my right to confrontation by admitting the 136 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 2: grand jury testimony as evidence achieved against me, that I 137 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 2: never forfeited my right, that there was no evidence whatsoever 138 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 2: that means need by Tampa, with the witness and every 139 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,119 Speaker 2: verse occasion, we managed it back down for a new trial. 140 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: Anyone listening is gonna be going just like I'm going, Well, okay, 141 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: now you go free. Right, Yes, except that's not what happened. 142 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 2: Not exactly, because I was somewhat coerced to take a plea, 143 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 2: an outfit plead, because I started a second trial. When 144 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 2: the Pel Division reverses, they ordered a new trial. They 145 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: prosecuted and instructed the judge to jury, actually in an 146 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 2: open insummation, that they should find me guilty of attention 147 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 2: to murder and the second degree, a crime in which 148 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 2: I was acquitted of at the first trial. 149 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: Sounds like that with jeopardy, right. 150 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,119 Speaker 2: I spoke to my lawyer about it, and I said, 151 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 2: I just was acquitted that he brought it to the 152 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 2: court's attention after the jury stepped out of the room 153 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 2: and the judge macker was who was at the time 154 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 2: she deceased, now indicated that well it was a mistake, 155 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: well not giving you a mistrial. Um, yes, the prosecutor 156 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 2: was wrong, Yes she was acquitted of it. But we're 157 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 2: going to dispose of this case one way another. And 158 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 2: my lawyer pulled me to the side and said, look, 159 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 2: as you see, they're not trying to be fair. And 160 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 2: you know I had a conviction for a weapon at 161 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 2: that time as also, so he said, you got five 162 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 2: years for the weapon. You're not going to run for man. 163 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 2: You see they trying to railroad you. They're willing to 164 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 2: give you outfit plead. And for the people that don' understand, well, 165 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 2: you're United States Supreme Court in Alphit versus North Carolina, 166 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: rendered that a plea can be took where a person 167 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 2: doesn't have to be allocuted, It doesn't have to talk 168 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: about the underlying factors of the case. You say because 169 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 2: there's a likelihood I may be convicted, not because I'm guilty. 170 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 2: I accept the conditions of this plea. 171 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: Right, So you're not admitting guilt, but the government is 172 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: not admitting innocence. Yes, right, So you're basically in like 173 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: a sort of a gray area, so to speak. Right, 174 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: but basically you're allowed. You can go home, yes, which 175 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: is what everybody wants. Yes, but you can never sue 176 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 1: the government. You cannot sue the state. You cannot. You 177 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: have no recourse, no recourse at all, right, because they 178 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: never admitting that they were wrong. Right, Okay, so now 179 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: you're out, Yeah, I'm out. And what happened? So now 180 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: you're twenty, I'm at. 181 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 2: That point, probably about twenty three. 182 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 1: Twenty three back to Bedstock, Yes, back to It's still 183 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: crazy out there. 184 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 2: Still, it's crazier than when I left. I mean when 185 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 2: I left in eighty three, the drug game wasn't as 186 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 2: crack cocaine never was in the community at that time. 187 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 2: I mean that hit my community in a very very 188 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: hard way. It was like being a different community. I mean, 189 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 2: you came home, there were mothers who were shrung out 190 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 2: on crack. There was whole families who were shrunk out 191 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 2: on crack. There was individual now who were drugsars, who 192 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 2: was running the neighborhood. It was just a different environment. 193 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: This is eighty this is nineteen eighty nine. 194 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 2: My father was killed in Bepe Staveson a year before. 195 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 2: So I'm coming home with that. I mean, there was 196 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 2: a lot of different Your father was killed, Yeah, he 197 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: was shouting, killed in stuyvesant On a year before that. 198 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: So I'm coming home with, you know, the idea of 199 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 2: getting my life back together, getting my family back together. 200 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 2: I was a mechanic help at the being in garage. 201 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 2: I'm probably going to prison. And at a young age, 202 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 2: I used to always work at a gas station on 203 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 2: Franklin and Clifton and Brooklyn. And the nickname I had 204 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 2: was Amaco Junior because I love cars so much, and 205 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 2: I worked with grease monkey type of stuff. So when 206 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: I came home, Benjamin Oliver, my previous employer, gave me 207 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 2: a job and I was working with him, you know, 208 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 2: changing all doing little things around the shop. 209 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: So things are looking up. 210 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 2: I was looking up, and my father left me some 211 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 2: money to invest a got from his insurance policy to 212 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 2: invest in beauty shalon. So I opened that in new Haven, Connecticut, 213 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 2: and I'm moving along with my life. I'm being known 214 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 2: to me that there was a detective and members of 215 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 2: the District Attorney's office. 216 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: By the way, it's an interesting combination working on cars 217 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:50,839 Speaker 1: and doing beauty. 218 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 2: Right, So you got a little ultimate apparents Unisex alone man. 219 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: You got hairst I got a whole thank on it, Okay, 220 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: thanks of looking up right. 221 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 2: And you know, i got two children, a six year 222 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 2: old son and a six year old daughter with a 223 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: tw different woman. So I'm trying to be the best 224 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 2: father i can, taking them to school, picking them up. 225 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 2: And I'm being knownst to me that there was some 226 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 2: individuals and law enforcement who had me on their radar, 227 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 2: who felt that the system had failed them, who still 228 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 2: believed that I was guilty for the death of James Wolf, 229 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 2: the young man that was killed, and there was some 230 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 2: cops that was very upset about it. In nineteen ninety 231 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 2: one January of nineteen ninety one, a friend of mine 232 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 2: by the name of Daniel Cash was shot and killed 233 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: in Brooklyn outside his home in Bepuestaves. Yes, I was 234 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 2: in New Haven, Connecticut that particular day, having stayed over 235 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 2: the night before for going away party for a friend 236 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 2: of mine, got a phone call Eddy Cayton, actually nath 237 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 2: Daniel's cash child mother received a phone call from a 238 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 2: mother who indicated him to the cash for shot and 239 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 2: killed in Brooklyn, and that some detectives that came by 240 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 2: a house looking for me said this Derek. 241 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: Hid and you weren't there because you weren't connected. 242 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 2: I was in Connecticut, and you know, I took it 243 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 2: as just talk. When I first heard that the cows 244 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 2: was looking for me for this murder, I didn't believe it, 245 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 2: you know, I said, people just saying that. But my 246 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 2: mother called me and said, the cops have been at 247 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 2: my house. 248 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: How long have you been out at this point? 249 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 2: At this point, I've been out probably probably six months, 250 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 2: because probably about six months a New York City detective 251 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 2: by the name of Louis Garseller comes to New Haven, Connecticut, 252 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 2: in the store that the owner and operated that the 253 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 2: Bautachelon told you about. 254 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: Now let me stop there for a second. Lewis Carseller 255 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: is infamous, and that's a very nice. 256 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 2: Way of saying very much so. 257 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: Right. Lewis Garsella is probably responsible for as many or 258 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: more wrongful convictions than any detective in the history of 259 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: this country. 260 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 2: I believe nine people so far have been as my number. 261 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: Is correct, but there's dozens of cases that have been 262 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: reopened because it's come out that there was I mean, 263 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: for just one example, there were six different murder cases 264 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: where he used the same witness who was a crackhead, 265 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: where he was applying drugs to who he was I mean, 266 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: So this woman was so lucky that she witnessed six 267 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: different murders. I mean, that's impossible, and he was he 268 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: was bribing her, coercing her, probably not the most reliable 269 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: witness ever, and maybe on the fifth one you'd go 270 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: and nobody could get that lucky. I mean. But anyway, 271 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: that's just one example of what he was up to. 272 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: So he was the last guy in the world you 273 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: wanted to be involved with if you were in the 274 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: criminal justice system, because he was going to get a 275 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: conviction and he didn't care whatsoever. That was the facts 276 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: of the case. He was interested in convictions, not truth. Yes, So, okay, 277 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: so Scarcell is looking for you. You didn't know who 278 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: he was though at this point I. 279 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 2: Didn't know who he was at this point, never heard 280 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 2: of him. And he walks into the unisextionaland that I 281 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 2: own kissed me on the side of my face and 282 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:06,839 Speaker 2: says Lafayette Gardens, motherfucker, excuse my vernacular, and automatically it 283 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 2: tells me that this guy is from Brooklyn and he 284 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 2: says that I'm under the rest. At that time, he 285 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,719 Speaker 2: said it was for a parole violation. I mean it 286 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 2: took me to on the side of my cheek. 287 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, okay, just what Derek, But yeah, 288 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: I mean that's like something strange, like he thought he 289 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: was in the movie type of thing. 290 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 2: He think he's the mafia figure. He has this biggie 291 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 2: you know, he looks like Joe Pessi, a taller Joe Pessy, 292 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 2: and I think he took on that character. But if 293 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 2: you ever see him testify or see his granddaughter, he 294 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 2: just has that you know, big Italiano Mafio so looking. 295 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 2: I think he just started playing that role at some point. 296 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 2: But he came in and kissed me on the cheek, 297 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: arrested me, took me to the Union Avenue station in 298 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: New Haven, Connecticut, and told me there that I was 299 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 2: being arrested for the definite Daniel Cash that he had 300 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 2: five woodnantses who couldn't identify me and say I killed 301 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 2: this young man. I told him I was innocent and that, yes, absolutely, 302 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 2: that was He said he had five witnesses that disagreed, 303 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 2: and that he was arresting me for I was transported 304 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 2: back to Brooklyn and reigned on the indictment pledge not guilty, 305 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: and we began the process. And you know the criminal 306 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 2: justice system, here we go again, and yes, here we 307 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 2: go again. The sole witness fuck that accused me of 308 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 2: the murder came to my lawyer four days after my 309 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 2: arrest explained to my lawyer that she never saw the crime. 310 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: So there wasn't five witnesses, there was one. 311 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 2: There was one. There was a single witness who had 312 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 2: told the cops immediately at the crime scene she didn't 313 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 2: see it, that she was at the store when she 314 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 2: came back, her boyfriend was shot and killed. She was 315 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 2: beat up at the scene the crime. Took to the 316 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 2: precinct with the technive Scots that have told her that 317 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 2: if she didn't implicate me in the murder, that she 318 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: herself would go to jail for the crime. She was 319 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 2: on parole. She had kids too, She had two children, 320 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 2: and they told us they would lock her up because 321 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 2: her boyfriend was a felon who had just got out 322 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 2: of prison himself, and she had no business being with them. 323 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 2: So they said because you. 324 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: In which case she would lose custody of her cats. 325 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 2: She would lose custy. 326 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: We see this over and over again with women. It's 327 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: one of the strongest threats that you can make to 328 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: a mother is listen, you're gonna testify the way we 329 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: want to. And they'll probably tell her too, and listen, 330 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: by the way, this guy's a bad guy. If he 331 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: didn't do this, he did some other stuff you're doing 332 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: society favorite. They tell him whatever the hell they want 333 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: to tell him. But mostly the only thing a woman 334 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: in that situation is gonna hear is you're gonna lose 335 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: custody of your kids. 336 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 2: And what she said was that, you know, it was 337 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 2: either her or meet in her mind that they told her, 338 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: if you don't say this, you're going to jail, and 339 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 2: she wasn't going to jail like you said. She had kids, 340 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 2: so she just went along with the statement. Deskar celebrabate 341 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 2: it with which indicated that she saw me come to 342 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 2: the building and some young man passed me a gun 343 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 2: and I got the gun and I shot down you 344 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 2: cash shovel times inside the vest of of the building. 345 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: But which doesn't match very well with the original story 346 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: that she gave where she wasn't there when the crime 347 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: was committed, right, so that story changed. 348 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 2: Yes, nor doesn't match with the science or the ballistics 349 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 2: evidence in the case. The guy was shot with two 350 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 2: different weapons and he was shot outside the vessel with 351 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 2: the building in the street, with an ultimate shot that 352 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 2: killed him which she never saw, which she was inaccurate 353 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 2: and saying he was shot in the building by one gun. 354 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 2: The fact that they learned this before the trial, the 355 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 2: fact that they knew that her story was totally inaccurate 356 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 2: with science. No one ever went to her and said, hey, 357 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 2: you're lying. You know you saw it. How did you 358 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: miss this? They didn't care, And what they actually did 359 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 2: was force her even though she told them and she 360 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 2: didn't want to come to the trial to testify. They 361 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 2: locked it up on the maturity witness order, brought it 362 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 2: before the judge who was ever rapaport in Brooklyn, and 363 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 2: told her that she would go to jail, which is 364 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 2: on the record, if she didn't come in and cooperate 365 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 2: fully with the prosecutor, not truthfully, but fully, whatever the 366 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 2: prosecutor tells you to do, that's what you better do. 367 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: Derek. One of the things I find so fascinating. One 368 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 1: of the reasons I said I was honored to have 369 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: you here is because Derek became a very accomplished jailhouse lawyer. 370 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: If that's I don't know if that's the right way 371 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: of saying it. So in your second stay in prison, right, 372 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 1: which was twenty one years, so here it is, Derek's 373 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: fifty one years old, spent twenty seven years in prison 374 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 1: between the two different wrongful convictions. So that's more than 375 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: about sixty percent of your life, yes, in prison, right. 376 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: And this is one of the things that I find 377 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: so inspiring. You said something along the lines of I 378 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: didn't have time to work out and it's funny because 379 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: you look like I mean, he's a big, big strong guy. 380 00:18:58,040 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: I mean he kuy of looks like Mike Tyson honestly, 381 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 1: But you didn't have time to work out of them. 382 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 2: Because why, my whole life was spent on getting out. 383 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 2: I was an avid student of a law library. I 384 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 2: must spend all my working hours there if I could, 385 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 2: And when I didn't, you would find me probably in 386 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 2: the cell reading a book and educate myself on the 387 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 2: criminal justice system, the processes that take took a convicted 388 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 2: person to a pill and post previction. I had to 389 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 2: master that. I mean, if I was able to level 390 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 2: the playing field, then I had to be the most 391 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 2: intelligent person in the court. And that was my goal 392 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 2: to study, to walk in the courtroom, to be able 393 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 2: to understand the process. And I just read everything they 394 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 2: had in the law library. I just studied everything. 395 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: But it wasn't just that you had a team, right, Oh, 396 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: I mean. 397 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 2: Your team came later. But I'll tell you about my 398 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 2: great team. 399 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: Because I look at it. It was like a law firm 400 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: in prison. 401 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 2: Right and right it was. It was a very good team. 402 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 2: In two thousand and nine, I arrived at the Auburn 403 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 2: Corrections Facility MAXIM maximum security prison. I was in segregation 404 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 2: at the time. I was a very dark woman of 405 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 2: mine in conservation because I had began going to the 406 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 2: parole board in two thousand and nine. And when I 407 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 2: began going to the parole board, I had a dilemma 408 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 2: where they wanted you to meet the guilt and I 409 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: couldn't make guilt. And I felt. 410 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: That is a glimma. We see it over and over 411 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: again with guys in your situation who are faced with 412 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 1: You got to admit guilt if you want to have 413 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: any chance to get out. So, actually, when you have 414 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: a twenty five years a life sentences, it's a life 415 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 1: sentence unless you're going to admit to a crime that 416 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: you didn't commit. Otherwise it's life because the parole board 417 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 1: is never going to say, yeah, let this guy go 418 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: unless you come in and go I'm so sorry. I 419 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: never should have done this. I feel guilt, I feel remorse, 420 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 1: I feel every but it's hard to feel remorse for 421 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: something you didn't do. 422 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 2: It didn't do. So I'm at this dilemma temps suicide 423 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,959 Speaker 2: if facillity no mercy says I faked the suicide attempt, 424 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 2: and throw me in a box twenty three hours a 425 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 2: day and you have one hour with about the size 426 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 2: of the day in a cage, a dog kennel type 427 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 2: of cage. If you can imagine, yeah, like TV right, 428 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 2: and you are I mean, you're just subjected to some 429 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 2: of the most horrendous treatment in the world because you're 430 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 2: around a lot of mentally ill prisons that bang and 431 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 2: throw feces and urine and you're subjected to a very 432 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 2: degrading time. So I'm there and I get to say 433 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,479 Speaker 2: a letter from a law library because the cops bring 434 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 2: two books today you're allowed and special housing. And the 435 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 2: letter says, hey man, I'm glad you're here from a 436 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 2: god in law library. We waiting for you, you know, 437 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 2: to get out and we look forward to working for you. 438 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 2: And it's Dannyrincoar. And when I get out of the box, 439 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 2: a friend of mine say, hey, Danny. 440 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: Has a group and the group is called. 441 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,360 Speaker 2: Actional Innocence and these guys want you to come work 442 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 2: with the Law Library and know you're smart, they know 443 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 2: you know what you're doing, and they need you to 444 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 2: come out here and lead the group. And at that 445 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 2: time they have Furnish Baccall, who's another scot seller victim 446 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 2: who's out now as well, is working as a clerk. 447 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 2: And I convince Shabaka to come to the Law Library 448 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 2: and we developed we drain actually the actual instance team 449 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 2: that Danny has, and we beat for the up. We 450 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 2: beef it up with knowledge, so. 451 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: It's like a law from like Ring country. Baka on 452 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: Hamilton and he got Richie Vazzario. 453 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 2: Okay, we got him in there to come with us. 454 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: He was a part of our team. And we got 455 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 2: a nice team of guys who was serious about their innocence. 456 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 2: Cal Harris, who ultimately just beat his beat his his 457 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 2: wife's murdered up the state. He was in prison for 458 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 2: killing his wife that he didn't do, had three trials 459 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: with Justice honor. He was a part of a team 460 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 2: and we would get to the law library and we 461 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 2: would study each other cases, help each other out and 462 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 2: help people in the population out. But what we would 463 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 2: do was be the most biggest critic on each other's case. 464 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 2: And if we thought that there was a question ask 465 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 2: to a witness credibility, we would bring it up. And 466 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 2: we thought they was a floor. And what I brought 467 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 2: to the teams, I said, look, here's the problem I'm 468 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 2: having is that pr we need to get public relations, 469 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 2: public media involved in letting society know that we exist. 470 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 2: And you know, they thought I was crazy at the time. 471 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 2: I said, I'm gonna get my family to go do 472 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 2: a rally outside of the Brooklyn Supreme Court. And I 473 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 2: had a motion at the time, and I sent my 474 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 2: family down to do a rally and it wound up 475 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 2: on the front page, well on big page whatever it was, 476 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 2: in the daily news, and it says inmates would go 477 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 2: free if the court here is witnesses. And having that 478 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 2: article around the Dairy News for the AI team was 479 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 2: a whole different level of organizing. Now Here are guys 480 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: who were downtrodden, who had been beat up by the 481 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,479 Speaker 2: criminal justice system motion denied Tony, and they knew they 482 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 2: was innocent. There was no doubt that were innocent. There 483 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 2: was overwhelming evidence in each of our cases to prove that. 484 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 2: But we were being treated, as you know, as if we 485 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 2: didn't exist, that we didn't count, that the law didn't 486 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 2: apply to us, because society thought we were bad people, 487 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 2: that we wasn't human beings who deserve to be treated fair. 488 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 2: And when that article came out, it showed the team 489 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,959 Speaker 2: how much power we have if we can organize our 490 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 2: families or in society to make noise. And we did that. 491 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: So now you're organizing insight and outside. 492 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 2: All right, So what we decided to strategize why to 493 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 2: contact Lonnie Sorry, who was a PR guy that worked 494 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 2: through the Marty tanklerf case. I reached out to Lonnie 495 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 2: and I sent them five hundred dollars, and I said, Lonnie, 496 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 2: look it's all I got man, and guy's my commentsary money. Hey, 497 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 2: I need the eight but we need you. And my 498 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 2: wife called Lonnie and said, Lonnie, well, Derek says you're 499 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 2: organizing a rally outside the city hall. And he says, 500 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 2: I didn't tell Derek I was organized in a rally 501 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 2: outside city Hall. And then I said, have everybody family 502 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: called him. So Lonnie was getting a phone calls from all 503 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 2: our families and friends, and he told my wife, what 504 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 2: are Derek doing to me? He got people calling me 505 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 2: saying I'm giving a rally. But he was convinced to 506 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 2: give the rally and it was our first one. We 507 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 2: was all in prison. Lonnie went out there with our 508 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 2: family about fifty people, and we was able to see 509 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 2: the pitches and see the news and the way he 510 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 2: made of it, and he empowered us, let us know 511 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 2: that you know, people did care about the wrong he 512 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 2: convicted because we was on the steps of city Hall 513 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 2: and had a nice turnout. So that began us really 514 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 2: high in a sense of power, noring what we can 515 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: do with with just you know, our families and educating 516 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 2: people on what's happening to us? So I mean doing 517 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 2: that process. I began to write lawyers asking for help. 518 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 2: Lonnie was helping me. He was very much an advocate 519 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 2: of mind at this time, helping me. And Jonathan Ellistein 520 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 2: from Elstein and Grossman began wrote me back and said 521 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 2: that he was sickened about what happened to me, being 522 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 2: a lawyer for seventeen years. Think he said. He said 523 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 2: that he was really troubled how the course was strong, 524 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 2: my evidence of instance in the garbage, and he said, 525 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 2: I think you should go to the media with this. 526 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 2: And I sent them a check for fifteen hundred dollars 527 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 2: and said this is all I got left. Would you 528 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 2: be my lawyer? Said, I'm sending you your check back 529 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 2: because I can't take your money. Your emotion is immaculate. 530 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 2: But what I will do is write a friende to 531 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 2: the court brief and asks to court the grant you 532 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 2: hearing on your evidence of innocent said. 533 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 1: Your emotion is immaculate. Yes, you must have felt pretty 534 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: good about that I did. I did? And what kind 535 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: of education did you have before this? G. D. 536 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 2: Blackstone School of Law, even the college courses they had, 537 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 2: You know, I just couldn't see myself spending all my 538 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 2: work when I was in college when I had to 539 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 2: actually learn law, and it wasn't teaching law courses there, 540 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 2: so I had no interest in going to college. I 541 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 2: had to be in the law library. But and at 542 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 2: that point, when mister Elistein wrote me back, I felt great. 543 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 2: And the judge denied my motion. He found that there 544 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 2: was a law of court and jurisdiction that he couldn't 545 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 2: overturn the previous judges who denied previous four forties and 546 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 2: three thirty point thirty, So he was kind in the 547 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 2: buying that he would not reverse conviction. At that point, 548 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 2: Jonathan Nelstein became my attorney. He said that he would 549 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 2: file leave to the Tell Division on my behalf free 550 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 2: of charge, and he also decided to write a letter 551 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 2: to the Parole boar on my behalf. And he wrote 552 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 2: a very touching letter to the parole Board and basically 553 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 2: told the parole board that society has no interest and 554 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,439 Speaker 2: keep an innocent man in prison. So he said, this 555 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,719 Speaker 2: man is not a risk of society because he's innocent, 556 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 2: and he outlined all the evidents that we had to 557 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 2: prove that I was innocent, and he basically invited them 558 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 2: to take a look. The parole board released me based 559 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,360 Speaker 2: on a letter, amongst other things, and wished me good 560 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 2: luck and prove my innocence. This is what year we in, 561 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 2: twenty eleven, December. 562 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: Twenty eleven, So you'd been in for twenty one years 563 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: on the second wrongful conviction at this point, right, a 564 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: total of twenty seven. Yeah, there's only three cases I 565 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: know of in the hundreds of exonerations that we've had 566 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 1: Innocence Project and other projects where there's been somebody who's 567 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 1: been wrongfully convicted twice, there's only three. 568 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 2: So I'm home and I'm busting my butt to find 569 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 2: a job. Contact Scott brut Snyd. I'm a previous lawyers. Hit, 570 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 2: I'm home. You know, I got a para legal degree 571 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 2: and I think post conviction is the place to go. 572 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 2: There's a lot of guys left in it as innocent. 573 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 2: We should work in these cases, and we started working. 574 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 2: My wife contacts me one day and say she gets 575 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 2: an email. We'll share emails, and some investigat or detective 576 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 2: contacted it and said they wanted to get in touch 577 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,360 Speaker 2: with you. I said, I'm going to Canada now, I'm 578 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 2: out of here. What do you mean they want to 579 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 2: get in touch with me? I don't want to speak 580 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 2: to nobody, but didn't want to talk to me about 581 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 2: now me. I'm thinking that. So I'm scared and I 582 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 2: call a guy and he says, no, I work for 583 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 2: a lawyer, a boy the name of p Assessment. He says, uh, 584 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 2: Pierre wants to speak to you about Louis Scott Seller. 585 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 2: And I says, okay, what do you want to meet 586 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 2: me at? He says, up in the bronx by the courthouse. 587 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 2: I go up and meet this guy. And you know, 588 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 2: I looks up, you know, I'm across the street, you know, 589 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 2: checking it out the scenario seeing me first, and I 590 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 2: see a guy and I called. He picks up the phone, 591 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 2: so I'm on my waist is when I'm over here waiting. 592 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 2: He looks like a hipster, you know, he got a 593 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 2: trench coat on. I said, well, you don't too much 594 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 2: look like a cop because he got you know, hippie 595 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 2: kind of looked with him. Said maybe I can trust 596 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 2: this guy. So I'll go over and introduce myself. And 597 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 2: he tells me that he has a prison inmate who 598 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 2: will be released in two weeks and that the DA's 599 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 2: office in King's County agreed that Lewis Scott Teller framed 600 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 2: this guy. And for me, it's like wow, like somebody 601 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 2: was finally able to establish that this cop has been 602 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 2: doing the things we've been arguing for a long time. 603 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 2: While I say we, I am thinking about Chabaka, Alvin, Jeannette, 604 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 2: Robert Hill, Jarard Austin, all these guys, Nelson Cruz, these 605 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 2: guys who I know that he framed personally know that 606 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 2: he's framed, and I'm saying, wow, we have an opportunity. 607 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 2: So in the course of this, he asked me about 608 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 2: my case and I said, I have a lawyer, but 609 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 2: I introduced him to Jeanette Hill in Austin, who he 610 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 2: has gotten zonerated as of now they've been as HONERATD 611 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 2: And I tell him about those guys in Teresa goldmanz 612 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 2: how Scar Seller used hunting six different homicides and he 613 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 2: was surprised to even hear that because he didn't know 614 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 2: about that at the time. And he says, okay, well, 615 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 2: I can't tell you the name of my client that's 616 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 2: going to be released, but in two weeks they're gonna 617 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 2: release and please you know, contact me again. In two 618 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 2: weeks David rant was released. The first guy who was 619 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 2: ever able to establish the scar seller had told the 620 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 2: witness to pick out the guy with the hook nose, 621 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 2: which was how he identified Ranta and then established what 622 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 2: we've been saying, that this is the tactics and the 623 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 2: strategy this cop used to convict innocent people. So after 624 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 2: having learned this and David Ranta's release, I run into 625 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 2: a reporter by the name of Francis Robus from a 626 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 2: New York Times and Robus is investigating Julio Assevedo case 627 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 2: and she calling us to learn more about Acevedo. Acevedo 628 00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 2: was a guy that was accused of killing the real 629 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 2: fifty he sent originally who fifty cent got his name from. 630 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 2: And I got Acevedo out of prison on the four 631 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: to forty motion got his judgment vacated and released because 632 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 2: he was kidnapped by drug dealers made to kill the 633 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 2: fifty cent It was under duress, and once the judge 634 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 2: charged the jury, if he can prove he did it underressed, 635 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 2: they had to find him not guilty. I got the evidence, 636 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 2: got the guy to prison. So Robers wanted to know 637 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 2: who was Assevedo, and he had a car accident in Brooklyn. 638 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 2: Three ascetic jews had died. His face was all over 639 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 2: the news recently at that time. And I got him 640 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 2: to surrender himself, come in and deal with the case, 641 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 2: don't run, because it wasn't his best interest. And she 642 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 2: asked what Why would he be afraid of the cops. 643 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 2: Why would this guy be so afraid of the cops. 644 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 2: And I said, look, here's a guy that was arrested 645 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 2: proviows he told the cops the truth, how he was kidnapped, 646 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 2: Pistolhooper made the committed murder. They didn't believe him. He 647 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 2: spent ten years in prison. Had I not got him, 648 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 2: might he probably would have still been there? I said, 649 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 2: is a guy that's a fright me. I'm a guy, 650 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 2: big guy, but I'm afraid of the cops. Cops framed 651 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 2: me twice. 652 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: And you would be afraid of the cops if they 653 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: frame you once? I mean absolutely. 654 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 2: And I said, look, I was just informed by a 655 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 2: lawyer that in two weeks the cop that framed me 656 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 2: and others is for the first time going to be 657 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 2: revealed as being that type of cop. I said, if 658 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 2: it happens. Get in touch with me. I'll give you 659 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 2: the evidence to establish that there's others. And we made 660 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 2: a deal, and in two weeks Ranter was released. I 661 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 2: got a call from Francis Rovers and says, hey, you 662 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 2: got that evidence that you was just talking basically, And 663 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 2: I introduced her to Jeanette and she she did a 664 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 2: very good investigation, and the New York Times got the 665 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 2: King's County Die's officer on the charles Es then to 666 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 2: agree to look at fifty five of scar Seller cases 667 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 2: fifty five at that time. 668 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: Fifty five people. I mean, when you think you know 669 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: and everything is it's so hard to imagine. I mean, 670 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: even what one person could go through, but fifty five 671 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: is such a huge number. Yes, one person could cause 672 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: that much destruction and damage to so many people's lives. 673 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 2: Ironians identification, false confessions, fail to turn over discovery. This 674 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 2: is our criminal justice system, man. When you deal with 675 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 2: the ones that we can fix, like Ironians identifications, there 676 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 2: have been studies that you know about and I know 677 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 2: about that says that we can fix Eronianus identifications by 678 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: having something called double blind lineups. Well, the cops doesn't 679 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 2: know who the suspect is, so there's no fear that 680 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 2: they will sugges to pick out number three or pick 681 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 2: out the guy with the hook nose. 682 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: I want to go back that for a seconds. I'm 683 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: glad you brought that up. So the Supreme Court actually 684 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: took on this issue. Yes, and I'm reading from a 685 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: book I consider like the Bible. It's just called Convicting 686 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: the Innocent by Brandon Garrett. Shout out to him, Shout out, Brandon. So. 687 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: In Manson versus Breathway, a case involving a prison custodian Naemanson, 688 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: not the famous serial, the US Supreme Court noted the 689 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: dangers of suggestive identification procedures. The Court had long recognized 690 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: quote the vagaries of eyewitness identification where the annals quote 691 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: the annals of criminal law are rife with instances of 692 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: mistake and identification. And in that decision, the Court affirmed 693 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 1: that the due process clause of the Constitution, which everybody's 694 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: familiar with, embraces the right to be free from unduly 695 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:19,479 Speaker 1: suggestive eyewitness identification procedures. Okay, now we're on the right track, 696 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: Thank you, Supremes. Right, Okay, such as showing the eyewitness 697 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: a single photograph of the suspect or telling the witness 698 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 1: whom to identify in a lineup, yes, which we know 699 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 1: has happened over and over again, including in some ways 700 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:32,919 Speaker 1: in your case. 701 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 2: Yes. 702 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: However, and this is where it all falls apart. However, 703 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: the Court and Manson, in the same rule added a 704 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: caveat that undercut the power of that holding, because they 705 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: found that even if the police engage in suggestive procedures 706 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 1: so potentially suggestive that they violate due process, the identification 707 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: may still be admitted at trial if it is otherwise 708 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,800 Speaker 1: quote reliable. Yes, I mean that is just I mean okay, 709 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 1: So so they said you can't do this, but it's 710 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: okay if you do. 711 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:03,439 Speaker 2: Yes. 712 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 1: Basically that's what they said, right, yes. 713 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 2: Yes, basically because who determines reliability number one? And they 714 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,800 Speaker 2: didn't set for for tests to determine the reliability. But 715 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 2: they says, if there's an independent source. So now what 716 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 2: they do is they instruct the witness, Hey, hey, you've 717 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,399 Speaker 2: seen a guy before, right, it was seen before. Yeah, 718 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 2: I've seen him once or twice in the supermarket with 719 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,760 Speaker 2: his mother, and they make that the independent source. However, 720 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 2: if the person could have identified you, then when the 721 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 2: cops first accident who committed the crime. He should have said, Hey, 722 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 2: a guy that I saw on the supermarket with his mother, 723 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 2: you know, was a guy that committed his crime. That's 724 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 2: the problem. A lot of times when they say something suggestive, 725 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 2: they allow them to use a reason that they believe 726 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 2: is reliable that no reasonable person would find to be. 727 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: Liiable, which they can invent. And we all know, so 728 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: basically that that's a that's a ruling that has to 729 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: be amended. Yes, because it's so, it's so, it's really 730 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: such a terrible missed opportunity where the Supreme Court recognized 731 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: this problem that has been responsible for so many wrongful convictions, 732 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: including yours. Yes, but then they undercut their own decision 733 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: and made it basically toothless and meaningless. Yes, and so 734 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: so then we wind up in the situation that we're in. 735 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,760 Speaker 2: I think that the audience should work on with us 736 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 2: putting prosecutors in office to understand the dangers of wrong 737 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 2: for conviction. In Brooklyn, we had a prosecutor run on 738 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,320 Speaker 2: that platform. We need you know what I mean, shout 739 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 2: out to him. One of the best there ever was 740 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 2: twenty something wrong for convictions and overturns. Yes, over turn 741 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 2: in two years. We need prosecutors who are willing to 742 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 2: understand that a part of their job, a part of 743 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 2: their role, it's quasi jd issue, you know, candid to 744 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,240 Speaker 2: the court, fitess to the queues. And we get that, 745 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 2: then we can change the system all around the country. 746 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 2: We just need prosecutors who just don't believe in locking 747 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 2: them up, throwing the key away, but in justice. 748 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you 749 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: get your podcast. It really helps. And I'm a proud 750 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll 751 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping 752 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org 753 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like 754 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. 755 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR 756 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on 757 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. 758 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava 759 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one