1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. We're joined 6 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: by our super guest producer Max with the Facts Williams. 7 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: The one they call Ben, is currently solving a series 8 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: of ghoulish riddles to win his voice back from a witch. 9 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: But you're you, you are here, and that makes this 10 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: the stuff they don't want you to know? Is it 11 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: a sea witch kind of situation? Like a little Mermaids scenario? 12 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: I must be more well. To my knowledge, Ben was 13 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: unable to identify the witch. He just shows that it was, 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: in fact, which, yes, a dark presence of the earth 15 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: or the sea or the guy you know specifically. That's right, 16 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 1: Speaking of strange things like that, let's talk about reality, everybody. 17 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: How do you define reality? How do we define our 18 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: collective reality? Because so much of what we experience is 19 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: objectively true. This desk, this microphone, I think I'm looking 20 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: at a picture of Nol right now as I'm talking 21 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: to him. I'm pretty sure but ultimately much of it 22 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: is a It's a matter of interpretation, right, our senses 23 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: taking things in and then we decide. Our brain decides 24 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: because of previous experience, what reality is well, either interpretation 25 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: or just like blind faith right through which we filter, 26 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: you know, into interpretation. It's like, well, I choose to 27 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: believe that I'm looking at a picture of nol because 28 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: if I don't believe that, or I can't believe that, 29 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: what what can I believe? Uh? It's a slippery slope reality, right, 30 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: It's an interesting thing, this thing we're all experiencing right 31 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: now as you are you, yes, you. So these are 32 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: questions that we grappled with in an earlier episode that 33 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: we recorded in on a thing called the Latitude Society. 34 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: It's this intense, astonishing, immersive experience based on a secret society. 35 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: It pushed the boundaries of art and culture and performance. 36 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: And today again I believe, I believe this with all 37 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: my heart. We are speaking with the creator of a 38 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: thing called Nonchalance. It's a collective, a company, it's a 39 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: group that created things, many things like the Latitude Society. 40 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: His name is Jeff Hole, and I think I'm looking 41 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: at him right now. Is that true. It feels true. 42 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 1: Truer words were never spoken. Jeff, thank you for joining us. Man. 43 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: We're excited to to talk through some of your projects past, 44 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: present and future and just kind of the nature of 45 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: art and and immersive art and virtual reality and reality 46 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: and augmented I mean, so many versions of reality that 47 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: I think we can dive into. So thanks for being 48 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: here with us. Oh, likewise, it's really great to be here. 49 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: I feel like I need to bow before the lords 50 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: of the Unknown. Yeah, right, they look they love a 51 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: good bow. There's no question about that. And that's the 52 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: overlapping area of our interests. Is this idea that there's 53 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: this unknown and are you willing to explore it? Oh? Exactly. 54 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: And uh, synchronicity is one major word I just kind 55 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: of want to focus on today while we're going, you know, 56 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: while we're having discussion here, because we're talking with you 57 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: today because of a curious case of synchronicity, some unfolding events. Right, 58 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: we made that episode, and then the Latitude Society and 59 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: everything we learned about nonchalance and you personally has kind 60 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: of been come just a reference that we call back 61 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: to quite often actually on this show when we're talking 62 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: about anything alternate reality or dimensional things like that. We 63 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: talked about the latitude society, we talked about nonchalance, and 64 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: my understanding after we checked our voicemail messages and we 65 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: heard your voice on there, is that you experienced some 66 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: weird synchronicity. Could you tell us about that? Certainly it 67 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: was an unreal moment for me when I was in 68 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: uh the desert. I was in Joshua Tree, and I 69 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: had had an experience of my own. I was in 70 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: a kind of a trance psychedelic meditation, and I was 71 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: considering these questions of um participatory projects that can affect 72 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: our consciousness, our our perception of reality, and I was 73 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 1: thinking of it in those terms. And then I was, 74 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: you know, letting the music fade, and I was taking 75 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 1: some notes to myself before heading off to sleep, and 76 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: as I do, I put on a podcast and this 77 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: night it was stuff they don't want you to know, 78 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: and it was UM the episode of Orange hat Am 79 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 1: I pronouncing it right, mm hmm. And instantly you and 80 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: the other host we're discussing these projects and these kind 81 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 1: of nature of reality and immersive participatory projects, and then 82 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 1: you literally uttered the name of nonchalance in the latitude 83 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 1: and the synchronicity was just all too much and I 84 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: had to call in. I had to call in and 85 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: tell you about this experience because it it resonated quite profoundly. 86 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: I mean, that makes me happy. And I also believe 87 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,040 Speaker 1: in things like the universe, you know, and saren a 88 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: pity and all of that, and being in the right 89 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: place at the right time. Um, it's always great to 90 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: feel those connections and it kind of makes me it 91 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: almost like makes you see through the veil a little 92 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: bit and sort of see the fabric of things in 93 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: these connections between us. While they can be seen as 94 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: interpretive or sort of conceptual, I find them more often 95 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: than not to be pretty real. That's right, and so 96 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: young I talked about synchronicity is not affects that correlate 97 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: because of causality, but they correlate because of meaning or 98 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: another type of correlation than like temporal causality. Mm hmm. 99 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: It's it's so cool to me because often it feels like, 100 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: at least personally in my life, I ascribe that to things, right, 101 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: that's me deciding, oh, well, the universe wanted this to 102 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: be here or this way. Um, but it is ultimately 103 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: me deciding or deciding to believe that. I guess, I 104 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: don't know. I I it's interesting because what you do 105 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: with Nonchalance and the art that you create and you 106 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: know your teams, it's almost like you are you're not 107 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: forcing that synchronicity, but you're allowing a space for it 108 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: to just occur kind of naturally. That kind of like 109 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: a bigger meaning amongst something that maybe doesn't necessarily have 110 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: the meaning, but when the connections are made, it occurs. 111 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: So if you don't mind, I'd love to just talk 112 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: about what nonchalance is, what it does, and what an 113 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: alternate reality game is, and how you view the projects 114 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:39,679 Speaker 1: that you create. So Nonchalance began some twenty two years 115 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: ago really as a street art campaign in Oakland, and 116 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:50,559 Speaker 1: um as it always as has existed. Um it's really 117 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: a project or initiative that a team is built around 118 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: a project or an initiative, right, and then we ramp 119 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: up into a production and then that previously has had 120 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: a life of its own. And so after our last project, 121 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: we definitely wound down and we're on a hiatus right now. 122 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: People loved on their own ways, but um so it's 123 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: a really project by project thing where UM, different very 124 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: talented creators can come together to produce these projects. And 125 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: so it started off with oakland Ish, a street art 126 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: campaign really about local lore, UM, Oakland history and roots UM. 127 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: And then there was the June Institute, which was kind 128 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: of our I guess we're calling card, which was a 129 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:51,959 Speaker 1: fictional cult based in downtown San Francisco. So for the 130 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: June Institute, I just want to get of everybody make 131 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: sure they understand the scope of what we're talking about 132 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: of these projects. These initiatives. Uh, the June Institute felt 133 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: very real to me when I because I didn't get 134 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: to experience it in real time. I didn't get to 135 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: physically go anywhere or see, you know, physically see anything 136 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: because I was in Atlanta all the time that it 137 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 1: was running. But there are physical spaces that these projects 138 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: involve in, physical like real things. Yeah. So the the 139 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: scope of these projects UM is totally unwieldy and outside 140 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: of my own control. I am terrible at actually being 141 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: able to assess the scope of a project. So what 142 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: seems simple in my mind that oh, there's gonna be 143 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: an automated room, there's gonna be a pirate radio broadcast, 144 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:53,319 Speaker 1: there's gonna be these micro installations throughout the city. UM, 145 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: there's gonna be some element of augmented reality and events 146 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 1: communitability like um. Then then come of the work. So yeah, 147 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: there there were flyers and voicemails and signage around the 148 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: city that we're all for kind of metaphysical pseudoscience or 149 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: fringe science culti, things that are a little too bizarre 150 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: to exist in consensus reality. And then if you were curious, 151 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: curious enough to follow the breadcrumbs or pull on the thread, 152 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: you might dial a number or visit a U r 153 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: L or tune into this radio station and they would 154 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: eventually lead you towards the automated room at five eighty, California, 155 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: which was called the Induction Center, and that was meant 156 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: to be the real UM in Road to Adventure. Yeah, 157 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 1: it's interesting. It kind of reminds me it's not exactly 158 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: the same. But there's a band um I bet you've 159 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: heard of called King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard. Uh, 160 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: really cool psychedelic kind of program. And something they do 161 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: that's interesting to me is that many of their records 162 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: they make the like master recordings of available for free broadly, 163 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: you know, and anyone, any small label, anybody that wants 164 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: to take those masters and put out a bespoke, kind 165 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: of weirdo small press, you know, limited vinyl of it, 166 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: they can do that, and all that can. Gizzard asks 167 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: that they send them a copy. So they're all these 168 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: kind of like sanctored, like you know, legal bootlegs of 169 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: their records floating out there, which kind of creates this 170 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: participatory atmosphere around their art UM. And I think that's 171 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: not only really ingenious in terms of like creating this 172 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: community around some art, but it's also really practical and 173 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: interesting in a way of kind of like crowdsourcing, uh, 174 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: the energy of the music or art or culture that 175 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 1: you're creating UM. And it seems like that kind of 176 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: mentality is somewhat akin to what you're doing with UM 177 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: with your work. Can you kind of speak to that 178 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: the idea of what it means to be participatory as 179 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: a you know, as a fan of art or how 180 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,719 Speaker 1: how you kind of you that. Yeah, I think that's 181 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: a really good example, and it kind of points towards 182 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: the difference between entertainment and art or the potential for 183 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: transformation UM when you're consuming music or theater or whatever 184 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 1: that is. Um. I think our expectations are different than 185 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: when we are a participant in that experience. So UM 186 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: the idea that you could have a creative voice within 187 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: this project, or you could play a role a role player. UM. 188 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: And that's been one of the guiding principles of our 189 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: projects is is there a visceral, tangible aspect to it. Um. 190 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: It's not just something you listen to, it's not just 191 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: something you view on the screen. There must be some 192 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: kind of call to activity, some action that needs to 193 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: be taken and followed through on. And usually if you 194 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: are the kind of person who is curious enough to 195 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 1: answer the call. Uh, as they say, um, luck favors 196 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: the bold, there are rewards there. And with that, we're 197 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: going to take a quick break here word from our 198 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 1: sponsor and be right back with more from Jeff Hole. 199 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: We've returned. Let's get into this. So okay, in the 200 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: in the King Gizzard Lizard Wizard example, they are having 201 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,439 Speaker 1: this participatory thing and look, this is my opinion, so 202 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: they've got this art, they're creating more art with their art. 203 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: Everyone's enjoying it and doing it together. But in the 204 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: end they've got this monetization the chain, right, because the 205 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 1: more people listening to their music, the more people here, 206 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: the more people buy it, the more money they're able 207 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: to make, or their company whoever they owe money too, 208 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: gets to make money, which is kind of like in 209 00:13:55,360 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: our case, uh, just a just to interject their own 210 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: and operate their own label. They are the only books 211 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: printing their own records. So because you're making money, they're 212 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: making money. But but you can also argue that doing 213 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: it this way could take money out of their pocket. 214 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: But I think it has the opposite effect. It just 215 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: creates more interest and it just kind of makes people 216 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: more invested, you know, in in the art. You know, 217 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: I don't think it's a concern of like hijacking someone's 218 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: revenue stream per se exactly. But just my question then 219 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: is like, when you're creating this big project like the 220 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: June Institute, it doesn't seem at least to my eyes, 221 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: that it's for profit. It's like too, it's almost like 222 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: you want people to truly have an experience. Um, what 223 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: what what is the goal? I guess your goal when 224 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: you create something like this. So yeah, let me circle 225 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: back to that is King Gizzard and the lizard Wizard, 226 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: So they like add junct to the fish and jam 227 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: band scene. I mean, they're followed by similar fans, but 228 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: they're more psychedelic and kind of like, uh, they're Australian. 229 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: They're a like kind of garage e psychedelia, but they 230 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: definitely have a similar following. They're becoming that level of 231 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: ubiquitous fame and honestly they probably make most of their 232 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: money with live shows now that people can tour again, 233 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: but they also come up when come out with about 234 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: you know, ten records a year. They're just incredibly prolific. 235 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: But um, yeah, just just to to double down on 236 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: what Matt's saying as well, like and just to clarify 237 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: your projects, you want people to create their own sub 238 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: kind of experiences that sort of fit into the ecosystem 239 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: of your projects, which I think maybe the question is 240 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: how does that is there the potential for that to 241 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: take away from what you're doing that could be considered 242 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: a revenue stream or could be considered a business or 243 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: whatever it is, like, how do you view that participatory 244 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: thing in terms of like a business. Yeah, So there's 245 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: a few layers. So that one is with the example 246 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: that you gave the band who freely gives out all 247 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: of their tracks and stems for creative productions. What the 248 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: creating is meaning for people. Their level of engagement and 249 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: involvement with their work is very very personal and you're 250 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: building lifelong relationships with that, and so there are other 251 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: ways to um make that a sustainable work other than 252 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: album sales, right, And so with the ju June Institute, 253 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: I didn't know at the time that it would become 254 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: a documentary directed by Spencer McCall called The Institute, and 255 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: then that that would become the AMC TV series Dispatches 256 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: from Elsewhere. That was all unanticipated, um and delightful outcomes. 257 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: But they lead to other opportunities. And so the Latitude 258 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: Society was explicitly built for people to build and share 259 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: experiences with each other. And then there were subsequent projects 260 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: that we were trying to get off the ground during 261 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: these very uncertain times to create a platform for a 262 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: participatory play where people can build and create experiences for 263 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: each other in the real world. Um. And you know 264 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: that is an ambitious enterprise that just the timing wasn't right. Um, 265 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: But yeah, that's the notion is that through creating these 266 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: types of magical, realist, tangible experiences that have numerous qualities 267 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: that people can learn the language and the tool sets 268 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: to do it for themselves. That's awesome. And at the 269 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: at the heart of it, Jeff, is there a philosophy 270 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 1: or is there something you want people to to find 271 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: within there? Because often their puzzles, you know, And like 272 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: you said, you have to want it enough. You have 273 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: to want it enough or be curious enough to go 274 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: a level deeper every time, right, because these things have 275 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: depth to them. Is there something at the heart, like 276 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: of the j June Institute that you wanted people to 277 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: take away? Absolutely, And that central guiding light I think 278 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: is the same throughout, but it evolves and it takes 279 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: different forms. So at the very beginning, there was this 280 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: sense of playfulness, this idea that as adults we had 281 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: sacrificed our ability to play with each other um and 282 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: play has a very specific purpose in not just human life, 283 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: but mammalian life. And perhaps beyond that, play is something 284 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: that is meaning making. We create a magical circle of 285 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: understanding in which different rules apply. And so I was 286 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: looking at civic spaces and downtown San Francisco particularly in 287 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 1: saying how come why have we sacrificed this element of play? 288 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: Why is everything all down to business? Why is it 289 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: shopping and commuting and drinking a latte? And how come 290 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: all of the other spaces that are uh in a 291 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: civic society, we need spaces for dialogue, for communion, for play. 292 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: And it seemed like, through a lot of different influences 293 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: in the culture, those spaces were diminished and diminished and diminished. 294 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: So from that vantage, it's like we're trying to solve 295 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 1: a specific problem. And then I learned that UH, play 296 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: takes on all these different qualities for people, UM, that 297 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: that it goes way beyond just this idea of a 298 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: game UM and being playful. That there's a lot of 299 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: UM kind of strata beneath their well and it can 300 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: it can go a little too far to can't it? 301 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: With run a book? You know? Like that's sort of 302 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 1: what the the institutes about UM. The sort of unintended 303 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: I don't know, we'll call them consequences I guess, for 304 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: lack of a better word, of your open endedness to 305 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: this project UM. The idea of inviting people to join 306 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: sort of a secret society, UM, the latitude society. And 307 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 1: while I think your intent was more this sort of immersive, 308 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 1: choose your own adventure kind of scavenger hunt. I think 309 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 1: because it had this sort of inherent kind of exclusivity 310 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 1: to it with the invites and stuff, that people started 311 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 1: to kind of make it their own and feel like 312 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: they had agency um to control the narrative rather than 313 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: just go along with it or explore what you kind 314 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: of laid out before them. And it's sort of kind 315 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: of made the whole thing become a bit of a 316 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: bummer for you, if I'm not mistaken, Can you kind 317 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: of talk about that aspect? You kind of accidentally invented 318 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: the thing you were making fun of, which was like 319 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: a cult not invent created. You created a version of 320 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: it sort of accidentally by by doing a really damn 321 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: good parody of it, because you sort of proved the 322 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,199 Speaker 1: rule you're trying to lampoon a little bit is that 323 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: people tend to take these things on and make it 324 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: part of their identity. And I think a lot of 325 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: people didn't get the joke right. So the answer to 326 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: that question again layers here. I have suffered very real 327 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 1: consequences from doing this kind of work, and there has 328 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 1: been consequences and results that are unintended, And um, I 329 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: can take accountability for a great deal of that. In 330 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,959 Speaker 1: this regard when we create a fake religion or a 331 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: a fake cult or institute or that we kind of 332 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: like put these plaques and invite these alternate realities or 333 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: alternate histories or narratives, we are playing upon archetypal energies 334 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: within ourselves and others. And archetypes are sometimes conscious things 335 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: and sometimes they're unconscious things. And so I think that 336 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: I at that time, through naivete nonchalance could be a 337 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: synonym for naivete. You know. That's a quality of this, 338 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: this idea of like, I don't know, let's see what 339 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: could go wrong, And I looked around and found out 340 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: what can go wrong. So yeah, the the idea that 341 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: we're playing upon archetypal, subconscious um energies that activate us 342 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: in ways that we don't understand or that we're not 343 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: fully aware of, is something I can take accountability for. 344 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: And I think the community around the institute and the 345 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: Latitude Society also were activated in this primordial way that 346 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: I could describe as the religious impulse. Oh man, the 347 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: religious impulse is very strong right now. It feels in 348 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: in society. Uh, and people are just down to call 349 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: pretty much anything or religion or feel like anything is 350 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: religion right now? Isn't that funny? Too mad? Because you 351 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: think that the kind of people that would be into 352 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: something like what Jeff's creating would be people that wouldn't 353 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: necessarily gravitate towards religion. Um, but I think to Jeff's point, 354 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 1: it is something that is inherent within all of us, 355 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: and when you summon these kind of archetypes, they can 356 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: resonate in a way that people aren't even aware, you 357 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: know what I mean. Like, it's not like just because 358 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 1: I'm not a religious person doesn't mean I don't seek 359 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: answers or seek, you know, some kind of justification or 360 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: like explanation for why things are the way they are, 361 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: or some sort of way of exploring those questions. I 362 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: think everybody sort of wants that, and if you're, you know, 363 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: given that gateway, it's hard not to want to step through. Yeah, 364 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 1: it's it's fascinating to me, though, Jeff. I don't know 365 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,199 Speaker 1: what it's like to be immersed that deeply in in 366 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 1: one of the exper aariances, right because unless I'm in 367 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:04,719 Speaker 1: one right now, and I'm just not't aware of it, 368 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: which very well could be. Maybe that's just the nonchalance production. 369 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 1: But I'm imagining when somebody goes into one of these 370 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 1: experiences and you're going down that rabbit hole, wouldn't people 371 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: have some sense that this is a game or something else, 372 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: or is it just so well, you know, cloaked within 373 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: reality that people do go down the rabbit hole that deeply? 374 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: Is that? Do you think that's what it is? So 375 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: I don't think it's cloaked that deeply, and I can 376 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: speak to you know how uh, these events reverberate in 377 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: people to that depth. But first, I actually want to 378 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: back up Noll to what you were saying about what 379 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: we give our attention to is what we are worshiping. 380 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:53,719 Speaker 1: We're all worshiping something. So if you're staring at your 381 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: screen for three plus hours a day, that's what you 382 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: are worshiping. And so whether we decide to uh intentionally 383 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 1: worship something or not, we have that impulse to give 384 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: our attention to something that is maybe it's greater than ourselves, 385 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: maybe it provides meaning, and people are so thirsty right 386 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: now for meaning. So that's why we see these things 387 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: like you and on are nexium coming up. People are 388 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: pulled in these ways, and that's why we're seeing this 389 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 1: bizarre tribalism. And it also speaks to why these kinds 390 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: of projects are not very timely at the moment. We 391 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: already are in a place that we can't trust reality, 392 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: so there's no room to cavalierly suggest an alternative reality 393 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: that's playful and without consequences. There's really not the space 394 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,959 Speaker 1: for that right now, and so that's why the nature 395 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: of these projects. And I think even the immersive arts 396 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: realm is um waning. M h immersivity will continue in 397 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: v R and a R and the commodification of all 398 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: those things, but this kind of live participatory role play 399 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 1: game aspect, I don't think there's a there's a solid 400 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 1: ground for it at the moment because of the degradation 401 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: of truth. That's an interesting perspective. I'd love to just 402 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: double back on MAT's question real quick about you saying 403 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 1: your experience isn't that deeply veiled that that anyone paying 404 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: attention should kind of get a sense, Okay, this is entertainment. Um. 405 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: I would argue there are companies like Punch Drunk and 406 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: mea Wolf and stuff like that that are doing similar things, 407 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: but you buy a ticket. You know, when you go 408 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: see Sleep No More. It's immersive and it is highly 409 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 1: psychedelic and very affecting, but you pay a couple hundred 410 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: bucks for that ticket, and I know you you pay 411 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: it something or get a pass for your thing, but 412 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: it feels a little different than going on a website, 413 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: buying a ticket and then showing up for a showtime. UM. 414 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: Can you speak a little bit to some of those 415 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: handlings of immersive entertainment and how you handle it and 416 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: kind of what makes your thing different from some of those, 417 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: like you know, the Punch Trunks of mea Wolves of 418 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: the World. Yeah, yeah, that's those are great, uh touchstones 419 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,959 Speaker 1: because Meal Wolf and Punch Drunk have very successfully built 420 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: these experiences that are very meaningful for people, and they're 421 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: very sustainable UM. And they are turnstyle events, their events 422 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: where you uh, there's a designated space and time for 423 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 1: these and there's a transactional quality that you enter into 424 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: them and then you exit from and therefore that reality 425 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: bending um element is um. It's handled very specifically, and 426 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: I think one of the since that I've come away 427 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: with is that I used to celebrate what was opaque 428 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: and unknown and mysterious, and really really want as much 429 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,919 Speaker 1: of that as possible in my projects, and I wanted 430 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: people to kind of fill in the blanks themselves. And 431 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: that place of not knowing which part of it is 432 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: real and which part of it isn't is this overlapping 433 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: of it's a superimposition upon the magical realist world and 434 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: then the reality on the ground right or the factual 435 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: history of this building and the invented history of this building, 436 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: and then this area where they overlap is called the 437 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: warp zone. It's a place of departure. It's a place 438 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: that you don't really know what the boundaries are between 439 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: the actual and the fantastic the fantastical, and so it 440 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:08,239 Speaker 1: creates a perception that is different of reality where we 441 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: just don't know the limits of this thing. When somebody 442 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: walks right up to you on a busy street and 443 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: hands you the plot card that you've been looking for, 444 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: that how's the next thing? And then suddenly you're looking 445 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: at every other person on the street and saying, are 446 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: they in on it? You're in the warp zone. You're 447 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: in a place of departure. Okay, let's take a quick 448 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: pause we're gonna hear a word from our sponsor, and 449 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,959 Speaker 1: then we'll be back with more conversation with Jeff Hall. 450 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: And we're back. Let's get right back into it. Okay. 451 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna give you a concrete example that just 452 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: happened to me as we are prepping for this episode. Okay, 453 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: when you go to the website for Signal s y 454 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: G N y L, this is an audio experience that 455 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: that you've created. Um, there is. It's very cool. By 456 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: the way, you have to check it out. Uh, don't 457 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: listen to the signal. Whatever you do, don't listen to 458 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: the signal. Um. There is a short dedication at the 459 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: bottom of the primary page. When you go there, I'm 460 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: gonna read it to you and just show you where 461 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: I went. Uh. It says a general Mystification, Volume one, 462 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: which is kind of the subtitle for Signal, at least 463 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: for the first season. It says is dedicated to the 464 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: memory of James Bower and Tony say our intangible kin 465 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: and now James name links out to a go fund 466 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: Me page, and Tony's name links out to a memorial 467 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: fund And for me, as I was going through and 468 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: really studying the signal, downloading the stuff, looking at all 469 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: the materials that are available, listening to the episodes. I 470 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,479 Speaker 1: didn't see that about me or that part of the 471 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: page until later in my exploration. I was fully convinced 472 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: that that was part of signal, that everything that I 473 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: was reading was false, that this was like, as you know, 474 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: part of the game world. I didn't know Tony or James, 475 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: so I didn't know if they were actually you know, 476 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: deceased or not. So I fully for I would say, 477 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: a couple hours this week, believed that this thing called 478 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: moon Ridge Foundation which is handling uh Tony's I guess 479 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: his fund. I thought it was fake. I was looking 480 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: through their website, reading the bios of their directors, like 481 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: trying to figure out, Okay, who in here is actually 482 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: a piece back to signal. Um. It just I just 483 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: telling that to you, just to show you how cloudy 484 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: even my judgment gets. When when I was trying to 485 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: research this this episode today. Yeah, that's super interesting, and 486 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: that is the kind of thing I think happens. It's 487 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: it's powerful when it happens, because suddenly reality takes on 488 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: a different quality to it. Um, Tony Shehay and James 489 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: Bower are actual friends of mine have passed away right 490 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: before UM I went into producing the signal, and UM, 491 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I know it wasn't even really a question, Jeff. 492 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: I just wanted to give you an example of like me, 493 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: just being confused. Yeah, it can be really really confusing. 494 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: It can be very confusing, and so that kind of 495 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: data parsing and like I'm going to go on this 496 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: site and I'm going to find out who this isn't 497 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: I'm gonna follow these links and I'm going to collect 498 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: information and I'm going to analyze it. That is one 499 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: of the ways these games or these experiences can challenge you. 500 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of different ways that they can 501 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: challenge you. One of them is creatively, one of them 502 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: is analytically, one of them is socially. They can be 503 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: physically challenging, they can be psychologically challenging, and they can 504 00:32:54,880 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: be existentially challenging. And I think you guys and your 505 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: audiences UM might lean in towards psychological and experiential or 506 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: existential challenges, but a lot of people are really into 507 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: that analytical puzzle solving cipher's data code clues puzzles, and 508 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: they lean into the analytical challenge. Um, and they might 509 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: lean away from this being challenged psychologically UM. And it's 510 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: just an interesting quality of the Uh, groups of people 511 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: that are are these projects are like a magnet towards 512 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: Oh dude, I would describe myself as psychologically challenged in general. Fair, 513 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: but also I think you're a fan of being, you know, 514 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: psychologically challenged and then experiencing that challenge. I wanted to 515 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: bring this up because both you and I, um I 516 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: think possibly you to a deeper degree, are very into 517 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: a game called elden Ring. Um. Jeff, you may have 518 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: heard of it. It's kind of the biggest game going 519 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: right now. I know you've heard you on some podcasts 520 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: say you're not really a gamer. Uh. You have to imagine, 521 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 1: you know, understand some basis of game theory to even 522 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 1: be able to join all these pieces together and make 523 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 1: these experiences fun and engaging, um and challenging, but not 524 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: so challenging that you're gonna lose people. But elden Ring 525 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: is interesting because this company from Software, they're kind of 526 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: known for making like really really difficult games, and this 527 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 1: is their first like open world kind of version of 528 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: these really difficult games. And within that it requires you 529 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: to really get your ducks in a row and like 530 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: really like learn to get good at the game because 531 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 1: there's no easy mode. But also it has all of 532 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: this lore for you to parse that if you really 533 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: want to experience it on that next level. It's all 534 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: hidden and like object descriptions of like you know, a 535 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: sword or even like a resource like a barrier or something. Um, 536 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 1: And it's so vast and a little bit esoteric and 537 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 1: kind of like you know, ephemeral, that it's easy to 538 00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 1: completely ignore that level of it. But I think that's 539 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: a layer that you know, it creates all of this 540 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: chatter it creates, you know, there's just dozens and dozens 541 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: of videos on YouTube people trying to parce all this 542 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: elden Ring lore, even if they haven't even quite fully 543 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: figured it out. UM. I was just wondering if you 544 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: see any analogs between something like that that is more 545 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: of a traditional role playing game, but it has sort 546 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: of like an open ended quality to it similar to 547 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: what you're doing. Or do you think there's really not 548 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: much connection between like game design for like you know, 549 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: video games and the kind of work that you do 550 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 1: with these kind of real world or internet kind of 551 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:39,240 Speaker 1: connected games. So I've become a student of game theory 552 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,839 Speaker 1: and some people writing on that subject, even though I'm 553 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,479 Speaker 1: not a gamer myself, and I think that those kinds 554 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: of narratives and mythological functions of a game, like so 555 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: myths themselves have a lot of different functions to them, 556 00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: and so the mythological function of the game and something 557 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,720 Speaker 1: I feel very very connected to, especially when that lore 558 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: um is ritually rewarding and correlated to something that's that's 559 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: meaningful or potentially enlightening or transformational or something like that, 560 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: like the We all use formulas and tropes when we're 561 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 1: creating our our worlds and our stories, and hopefully those 562 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:33,720 Speaker 1: uh formulas and tropes and all of that content um 563 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: can add up to something um greater than some of 564 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: its parts. I don't know if that answered your question 565 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 1: or not, but I'm definitely gonna check out the Elden Ring. 566 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: I think you should in the mad I'd love to 567 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: hear your thoughts on this, because again I just mentioned 568 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: that you know you're you've been a fan of this 569 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: company's games for a long time, and they really do 570 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: differentiate themselves because so many other I guess Western game 571 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,879 Speaker 1: design companies that do these supposedly open and did open 572 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 1: world RPGs. It feels like you're looking at a GPS 573 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: where it's guiding you, telling you exactly where to go, 574 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: exactly what object to pick up. It's all like homework assignments. 575 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: But Eldon Ring doesn't do that. There's no guide, there's 576 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: nothing telling you where to go. There's no hints really 577 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: except from community members. There's this online company where people 578 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 1: can drop a little kind of very vague clues because 579 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,720 Speaker 1: you can only use certain words. But Matt As, I'd 580 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: love to hear if you think there's any connection between 581 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:31,320 Speaker 1: that world and what we're talking about here today. Yeah, certainly, 582 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: because in those games, you can only know what you 583 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: know in any given moment, and then you add a 584 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 1: piece of information to that and now that becomes what 585 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 1: you know. Right. Um, it's very much what happens in 586 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:50,240 Speaker 1: the real world. Uh you. I I know my yard, 587 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: I know the areas that I travel to on a 588 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: regular basis. I understand the things that are transmitted to 589 00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,959 Speaker 1: me through you know, this screen when I'm searching for them. 590 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 1: But anything I don't search for, any place I don't 591 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: travel to, I have absolutely no understanding in the real world, 592 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: real world terms, right, Um, and then in these in 593 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: these video games, it's you kind of function in the 594 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: same way because if it's an open world game, you 595 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 1: just explore and travel. Then if I'm when I'm thinking 596 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: about something like, I don't know, I guess I would 597 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 1: just say, it's like the Latitude Society's uh, the myth 598 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: at the heart of the Latitude Society. Um, how everything 599 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: in that myth exists inside the book. Right, there was 600 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: a book that you could travel down physically too, and 601 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: then hear the story that's within this book, which I 602 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: think it was like a projector or something. It looked 603 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: so incredible. However, you did it, awesome work. But then 604 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 1: everyone everyone else who came along added to that myth 605 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: or or or added I guess, their own concept to 606 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,279 Speaker 1: that myth. Right, That's kind of what happened. Um. That's 607 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: why I'm I'm just talking NonStop here, But ultimately it 608 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: feels like there is some connection to there. I'm just 609 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: not smart enough to put the pieces together, if you will. 610 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: And also, I mean to your point about the Latitude 611 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 1: Society's central mythology, I don't know, I'd be interested to 612 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,839 Speaker 1: hear your thoughts and this Jefley, I mean, is there 613 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:22,879 Speaker 1: an end all, be all answer or is it kind 614 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: of all up for interpretation because this elden Ring lore, 615 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 1: there's really no hard and fact. Mean, there maybe is, 616 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,839 Speaker 1: but even like if you have the answer, it's all 617 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,320 Speaker 1: pretty cloaked in mystery and these kind of esoteric concepts 618 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,360 Speaker 1: that aren't really instantly attainable to even fully wrap your 619 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 1: head around. I feel like there's some of that in 620 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,320 Speaker 1: latitude society, where you know your central mythology isn't necessarily 621 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 1: designed to have an end all, be all final answer 622 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: that yes, this is what everything is here, all the 623 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: pieces now you don't have to wonder anymore. I think 624 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 1: that's all about the wondering to me. Yeah, so that 625 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: parallels a lot of philosophies, theologies and ideologies. It's like 626 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: you can study and you can become the monk who 627 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,839 Speaker 1: knows all of the uh you know, scriptures and um, 628 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: and ultimately there is I think when we're talking about 629 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,720 Speaker 1: those things, there's something you're gonna find within yourself. There's 630 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:20,400 Speaker 1: this interior journey and there's a lot of unknowable qualities 631 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: that are open to interpretation, and we'll always remain open 632 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 1: to interpretation. That's part of the human mystery. So if 633 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 1: your game world can parallel that kind of quest, then 634 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:38,359 Speaker 1: I think you're onto something. You're cooking. You should check 635 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 1: out another game, Jeff. It's called Control. It came out 636 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: years ago. It's from I think Remedy Entertainment. Oh lord, 637 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: let me look that up. Yes, it is Remedy Entertainment 638 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: came out twenty nineteen, maybe, okay, And it does some 639 00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 1: of the same stuff that you do with with Laura, 640 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 1: where you get bits and pieces, you go deeper, you 641 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: find the next bit and it matches up with this 642 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 1: other thing. But if you don't look back at the 643 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,399 Speaker 1: other piece to connect to those pieces together, then there's 644 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,839 Speaker 1: no meaning. The meaning only occurs when you combine like concepts. 645 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 1: I guess and I think you'd get I'll check that out. 646 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:24,400 Speaker 1: So to go back to the question and hand a 647 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 1: little bit, like is there a specific outcome or specific 648 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,799 Speaker 1: interpretation of these things? I think that Book and Projection 649 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 1: is a good analogy because what it was attempting to 650 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 1: do was represent the difference um modes of storytelling that 651 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 1: we have. It started from oral traditions, sitting around a 652 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 1: campfire and talking, and then those stories get passed on 653 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 1: then became the printing press. Right, there's a written language 654 00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: and then printing and reproduction. Right, So that's the book book. 655 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,479 Speaker 1: But then when we projected the image onto the book, 656 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 1: we're taking it into UH an age of technology and 657 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:15,359 Speaker 1: age of immersive experiential storytelling, right. And the purpose of 658 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: that story was to um let people know that there 659 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 1: is a rich history um to your own experience, that 660 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,799 Speaker 1: you're part of a greater story, and that if you 661 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,839 Speaker 1: we okay. So this is the other part to that, 662 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: that other level. After you went through that initiatory experience, 663 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 1: you would be invited to practice meetings and events and 664 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:46,719 Speaker 1: these clandestine locations, and it would always begin with a 665 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 1: telling of the fable from memory, so it would always 666 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,760 Speaker 1: be a little bit different. And then we would play 667 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 1: games where people would add on to the story and 668 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,919 Speaker 1: imagine all the things that happened between that initial origin 669 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,239 Speaker 1: in story and what's happening today. And by that activity, 670 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,840 Speaker 1: you become a storyteller yourself. And I would say that's 671 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 1: closing the loop of the endeavor. You were initiated into 672 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: a space and heard a story, and you become the 673 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: teller of the story, you become the hero of the journey, 674 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,319 Speaker 1: and you're passing that on to others. Let's just you know, 675 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 1: it's a honoring the oral tradition too, in the way 676 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 1: things kind of evolve over time as they're passed down, 677 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 1: and you're sort of inviting people to be a part 678 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,319 Speaker 1: of that, like upfront. And I think that's why it's 679 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 1: so interesting to me to to go back to something 680 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 1: I asked about earlier, Um, how people were able to 681 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,799 Speaker 1: get so um, kind of bit out of shape when 682 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 1: they didn't like the direction things were going. Um, people 683 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 1: that really took this stuff on and and used it 684 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 1: as a way of kind of defining their personalities, I 685 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,960 Speaker 1: think beyond what you've ever intended. Um, can you just 686 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:56,880 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about what kind of that backlash 687 00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 1: was and why you almost kind of shut it down, um, 688 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 1: at least for all intents and purposes, when these meetings 689 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,799 Speaker 1: started getting a little aggressive, where people were kind of like, no, 690 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:10,360 Speaker 1: that's not what happens. This is what happens. Yeah, it 691 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,040 Speaker 1: that element that I was talking about. It's like, oh, 692 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,960 Speaker 1: here's a mythology you're being invited in. There's this place 693 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:22,200 Speaker 1: where you belong, and now you're the storyteller to it 694 00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 1: goes back to what we were talking about, like this 695 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 1: connecting on a on a unconscious and archetypal level. And 696 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:30,799 Speaker 1: I had no idea how powerful that that was going 697 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 1: to be for people. I really had no idea. And 698 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 1: also I am not the type of person who seeks 699 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,400 Speaker 1: belonging in the same way. I'm not like trying to 700 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,840 Speaker 1: find this inner circle of this quest because I already 701 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: have a very meaningful When I talk about community. To me, 702 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,799 Speaker 1: I'm talking about people I've known for forty years, you 703 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,920 Speaker 1: know people, you know, generations deep in California. I have 704 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: seven sisters in the Bay Area. And I'm not seeking 705 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,799 Speaker 1: a sense of belonging in that way. And so I 706 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 1: vastly underestimated the power and the and the quest for 707 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,800 Speaker 1: not just belonging but meaning. Um, this is a meaning 708 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:24,840 Speaker 1: making activity. And so this is brings us to like 709 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 1: where where is this going now? Because when you use 710 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,120 Speaker 1: these tools to create a fiction, when you use these 711 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 1: tools to create an entertainment, there is a sense of 712 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:43,719 Speaker 1: enchantment that's very very strong. Enchantment is like this enticing, 713 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:49,920 Speaker 1: delightful sense of like a mystique that it's gesturing towards 714 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,600 Speaker 1: the numinis. It is pointing towards the moon, but it 715 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 1: is not the moon. The moon is actual magic. And 716 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:02,040 Speaker 1: now we need to differentiate between enchantment and magic, right, 717 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,759 Speaker 1: So we're using the tools to create something that is 718 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,400 Speaker 1: an it's an enchantment. That's what I was doing because 719 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:12,320 Speaker 1: I didn't know that you could actually transform people's lives 720 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 1: with this. I didn't take that with the gravity and 721 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 1: the seriousness that perhaps I could have. And so when 722 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:26,600 Speaker 1: people are enchanted into a world, there is the inevitable 723 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:31,359 Speaker 1: factor of disenchantment. And with disenchantment can come a sense 724 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,839 Speaker 1: of betrayal, and with a sense of betrayal, there can 725 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,239 Speaker 1: become a sense of loss. And when you have a 726 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,480 Speaker 1: group experiencing that all at the same time, it becomes 727 00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:47,160 Speaker 1: righteous indignation, all things that I was in no way 728 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,880 Speaker 1: prepared to manage or to be a leader in that place. 729 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,080 Speaker 1: I put myself into a leadership position that I was 730 00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,759 Speaker 1: not prepared for it anyway. There is a documentary that 731 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 1: you can watch right now titled in bright Axiom B 732 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:04,799 Speaker 1: R I G H D and then A X I 733 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:10,000 Speaker 1: O m uh. It kind of details what occurred. What 734 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,000 Speaker 1: I want to know from you, Jeff, is was that 735 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 1: fully reality when I'm watching that documentary documentary or was 736 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:19,400 Speaker 1: that a part in some way of the latitude society? 737 00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:27,440 Speaker 1: So um, I don't know. Of the whole film is 738 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:32,560 Speaker 1: like actual, actual interviews, and then we do play with 739 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 1: the narrative and that's what makes these films really fun. 740 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,680 Speaker 1: Spencer McCall has been very inventive about taking that idea 741 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:44,680 Speaker 1: of a warp zone and applying it to the cinematic platform. 742 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,960 Speaker 1: The dark stuff and the reactionary stuff and the bitter 743 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:54,759 Speaker 1: bitter resentment is not even begun to be touched at 744 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:59,919 Speaker 1: in that film. That film was concluded before the real 745 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:04,520 Speaker 1: old backlash and the real accusations and the real destructive 746 00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:09,200 Speaker 1: bad faith acting that came out as a result of 747 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,200 Speaker 1: the film. And so I almost wish we caught it 748 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,000 Speaker 1: in the film, because the amount of pathos and drama 749 00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:22,040 Speaker 1: that occurred is still there. It's still there. It's still 750 00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,520 Speaker 1: just this bitter bitter thing for people. You know, it's 751 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,359 Speaker 1: so interesting though you you I was trying to come 752 00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:27,919 Speaker 1: up with the term and then you set it right away. 753 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,080 Speaker 1: The warp zone isn't that space though, where people aren't 754 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 1: sure how invested they should be. Isn't that the warp zone, 755 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:38,719 Speaker 1: like like where they kind of get they lose the 756 00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,440 Speaker 1: plot and sort of get too immersed and start like 757 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,920 Speaker 1: drinking the kool aid for real instead of like just 758 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,600 Speaker 1: kind of realizing its performance. Like isn't that sort of 759 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,080 Speaker 1: what you're after? But it just sort of maybe blew 760 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,960 Speaker 1: up a little bit in a way that you weren't expecting. 761 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,799 Speaker 1: But like, ultimately it seems like that's kind of the 762 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:58,239 Speaker 1: magic of of all of this when it's done. I 763 00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,080 Speaker 1: think this is this is a great analogy for me 764 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,520 Speaker 1: when I was talking about how are these experiences like 765 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,880 Speaker 1: really transformative and meaningful? It's like in my personal life, 766 00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:12,239 Speaker 1: my boundaries I have. It's taken me a long long 767 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,360 Speaker 1: time to learn, like the boundaries, What are the boundaries? 768 00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:16,840 Speaker 1: What am I at for? What am I not? What 769 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,360 Speaker 1: am I willing to do? What I'm just I'm not 770 00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,239 Speaker 1: able to do for you, you know? And so the 771 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,680 Speaker 1: Latitude Society is a great teacher for me about that 772 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:31,080 Speaker 1: I left the boundaries wide open, and um, so yeah, 773 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,440 Speaker 1: you can have the mystique. You can have your cake 774 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,960 Speaker 1: and eat it too. You can create numerous experiences with 775 00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:40,239 Speaker 1: a mystique and mystery and everything like that. But you 776 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,600 Speaker 1: don't have to lay down the drop bridge and give 777 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,439 Speaker 1: people the keys to the kingdom on the first date. 778 00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 1: You don't need to do that. That makes sense. But 779 00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:50,359 Speaker 1: how am I ever going to get all the way 780 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:56,040 Speaker 1: up this bridge? But I just started on that's not bad. 781 00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,000 Speaker 1: That's interesting because I mean to me and I think 782 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,200 Speaker 1: probably to tell three of us here, I mean, you know, 783 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,399 Speaker 1: scientology is so clearly a thing from the mind of 784 00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:07,319 Speaker 1: of a of a creative writer. And I used that 785 00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:11,080 Speaker 1: term very loosely creative writer. Um, you know, and it was, 786 00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:12,920 Speaker 1: you know, kind of created in his image with all 787 00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:18,120 Speaker 1: of these tropes from science fiction, Like how does it 788 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,640 Speaker 1: go so far? You know, it's because nobody checked it 789 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,320 Speaker 1: and he wanted it to. He just allowed it to happen. 790 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:26,919 Speaker 1: Like I would argue that maybe l Ron, however, didn't 791 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,759 Speaker 1: necessarily think scientology was going to go as far as 792 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:31,520 Speaker 1: it went, But when he started seeing it going in 793 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:35,000 Speaker 1: that direction, instead of pumping the brakes like you did, 794 00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,839 Speaker 1: he just kind of rolled with it. I don't know. 795 00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,239 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe I'm overreaching here, but I'm interested to hear 796 00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:43,759 Speaker 1: with both of you guys think about that. I think 797 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:47,600 Speaker 1: that's an accurate description of what is likely what likely 798 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:53,319 Speaker 1: has happened with scientology. Um, there was a fiction, there 799 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,080 Speaker 1: was a recognition that there was a need there for people. 800 00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,960 Speaker 1: There there was an odyssey that was created, and mythology 801 00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,359 Speaker 1: and these things are so powerful that they take on 802 00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,840 Speaker 1: a life of their own. They have a power that 803 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,719 Speaker 1: is beyond any individual in that organization. And so now 804 00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:14,200 Speaker 1: you're talking about godlike powers, um, And which is the 805 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:18,319 Speaker 1: function of mythology and religion in the first place? There 806 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,280 Speaker 1: is a power that is beyond our own power. Yes, 807 00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:26,720 Speaker 1: but see these are mythological powers, and it's contained with 808 00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:29,879 Speaker 1: within a group of people who choose to believe right 809 00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:34,200 Speaker 1: or or do fully believe right. Now, they suspend disbelief. 810 00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:37,640 Speaker 1: There you go, There you go. But what happens when 811 00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:39,839 Speaker 1: that kind of mythos is built up around let's say 812 00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:43,840 Speaker 1: a political campaign, right, or something that does have real world, 813 00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,920 Speaker 1: actual effects on human beings and real consequences. And uh, 814 00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,160 Speaker 1: not that a religion doesn't have real consequence, and not 815 00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:53,399 Speaker 1: that scientology hasn't had real consequences, but I mean far 816 00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:57,399 Speaker 1: reaching global consequences. When let's say a new president comes 817 00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,280 Speaker 1: into power and there's a mythos that's built up around 818 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,799 Speaker 1: that just through a campaign, Right, I don't know, like 819 00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,040 Speaker 1: what happens then, because it feels like we've been experiencing 820 00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,000 Speaker 1: that for a while now. No, that's the world we're 821 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,640 Speaker 1: living in. You just described the world we're living in. 822 00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,080 Speaker 1: Now what happens you're looking at what happened, but you're 823 00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,560 Speaker 1: seeing You made such a good point though, Jeff earlier 824 00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:20,919 Speaker 1: to kind of commenting on that, about how it's hard 825 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:24,120 Speaker 1: to play in these quote unquote virtual spaces out in 826 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,239 Speaker 1: the world because everything feels that way and nothing is 827 00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:29,720 Speaker 1: to be believed. So it's like, you know, we're living 828 00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,520 Speaker 1: in this post truth world. That's sort of a buzz term, 829 00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:35,359 Speaker 1: but I think it applies here um where it's all 830 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:37,800 Speaker 1: fake news, you know, on both sides, and it's almost 831 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:39,000 Speaker 1: like we just talked to who's that guy? We talked 832 00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:43,279 Speaker 1: to Matt the lovely British journalists who wrote about kind 833 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:49,080 Speaker 1: of belief and um Um cautionary Tales, Tim Harford. Tim Harford, 834 00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:52,480 Speaker 1: he pointed out that you know, when you're living like 835 00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,920 Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists and people that like really go all in 836 00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,479 Speaker 1: on conspiracy theorists, to them, it's not it's not about 837 00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,640 Speaker 1: belief so much. So much is it's about disbelief. It's 838 00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,280 Speaker 1: about like I choose to follow the person who's telling 839 00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:08,120 Speaker 1: me not to believe this other person, and so in 840 00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:10,239 Speaker 1: in that inherent that is sort of this lack of 841 00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:14,040 Speaker 1: belief in anything, and it sort of causes this weird 842 00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:18,799 Speaker 1: stymying of like forward momentum and thought and culture. Uh, 843 00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:24,160 Speaker 1: and it's really scary. Sorry, I just don't know it 844 00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:28,360 Speaker 1: is it is. Yeah, this, um, I don't have anything 845 00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:32,200 Speaker 1: this thing to say about that, but I'm following you. Well, 846 00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:36,600 Speaker 1: I guess, uh, we'll just have to find some kind 847 00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:41,120 Speaker 1: of experience to like get a catharsis, to achieve a 848 00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:47,239 Speaker 1: crystallized moment, right. How do we do that? Though? That's 849 00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:52,080 Speaker 1: a great question. And so this catharsis that you're talking 850 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:56,960 Speaker 1: about is something that human beings uh, really need to 851 00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:01,719 Speaker 1: reckon with the exact world that you described, it's um, 852 00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:07,279 Speaker 1: a unraveling of a common narrative. It's the ground of 853 00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:11,640 Speaker 1: of what we perceive as truth has just deteriorated underneath 854 00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,160 Speaker 1: us and the world is no longer what we knew, 855 00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,640 Speaker 1: And so before we can bring in a new era, 856 00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:20,040 Speaker 1: we need to mourn the death of the world that 857 00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:24,960 Speaker 1: we knew, and there hasn't been an experience that I 858 00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:30,560 Speaker 1: know of that is adequately answering that in a cultural way, 859 00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:36,160 Speaker 1: in a performative way, in a ritual and a ceremonial way, 860 00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,800 Speaker 1: and I think there's a way to do that. I'm 861 00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:44,279 Speaker 1: actively um working on these ideas right now, and it's 862 00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:48,919 Speaker 1: more of a of a procession or a pageantry um 863 00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:54,239 Speaker 1: that is performative. But the takeaway and the layer that 864 00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:59,880 Speaker 1: I think is maybe a new direction is having call 865 00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:06,040 Speaker 1: cutivating and developing the choreography of a cathartic and wordless 866 00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:11,440 Speaker 1: experience that involves music and and role playing. And when 867 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:16,440 Speaker 1: I say wordless, I mean pre lingual. This is something 868 00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:20,560 Speaker 1: that can affect us in our bodies, in our hearts, 869 00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:24,239 Speaker 1: and it can resonate in our sensory capacities. But when 870 00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:29,640 Speaker 1: we apply language to it, that gets attached to mythology 871 00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:34,040 Speaker 1: and these archetypal ideas of ideology theology, and it gives 872 00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:40,239 Speaker 1: this kind of container or this fixation around ideas and 873 00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,120 Speaker 1: beliefs and words and ideologies, and that's what we're all 874 00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:49,680 Speaker 1: wrapped up in, these distrust of other people's beliefs and ideas. Well. 875 00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,080 Speaker 1: There is a place beyond beliefs and ideas. And I 876 00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,200 Speaker 1: think that's what you were speaking to of, Like what 877 00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:58,400 Speaker 1: is this cathartic experience? Um? So these are some of 878 00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:03,360 Speaker 1: the ideas I'm playing around right now and seeking collaborators. 879 00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:07,200 Speaker 1: Oh wait, oh no, you're seeking collaborators. Oh that's dangerous 880 00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:10,400 Speaker 1: for me. No no, no, no, no, no, no no no. 881 00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:14,480 Speaker 1: I mean I will say, you know to that that point, 882 00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,879 Speaker 1: you know, I find Catharsis in music. I I find 883 00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:21,440 Speaker 1: Catharsis in cinema. I find Catharsis in literature. Um. And 884 00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:23,560 Speaker 1: the combination of all of all of those things, which 885 00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:25,879 Speaker 1: I think is largely what you're doing. So I think 886 00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,640 Speaker 1: there's obviously real value in there. It's like can it 887 00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:33,320 Speaker 1: can changing someone's brain or the way we interpret the 888 00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:36,840 Speaker 1: world around us actually lead to substantive change in the 889 00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:39,160 Speaker 1: way people interact with the world. Like I have a 890 00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:44,400 Speaker 1: daughter who's thirteen and thinks everything is is fucked um, 891 00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:47,719 Speaker 1: but also has a lot of hope UM. And I 892 00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:50,200 Speaker 1: see that and see the way she interprets art and 893 00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:53,000 Speaker 1: how important music and literature and culture all these things 894 00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:55,839 Speaker 1: are to her. And I see the lessons she's learning, uh, 895 00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,759 Speaker 1: and how sponged like she and her kind of generation 896 00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:03,960 Speaker 1: are and orbing these things, and I see some hope. 897 00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:07,120 Speaker 1: I don't know that. I don't know if like I 898 00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:08,840 Speaker 1: can direct. All I can do is talk on this 899 00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,719 Speaker 1: podcast and maybe make a record, you know, with the 900 00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:13,319 Speaker 1: music that I that I like to do. Matt and 901 00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,879 Speaker 1: I make music together as well, that maybe we'll change 902 00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,240 Speaker 1: someone's opinion or someone's mind. That's all I can, I 903 00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:20,400 Speaker 1: think hope to do. But I think there are future 904 00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:23,480 Speaker 1: generations that are just so much smarter, so much younger 905 00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:26,040 Speaker 1: than I certainly was, And I just wanted to know 906 00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:28,439 Speaker 1: what your thoughts are and like on that on how 907 00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,480 Speaker 1: younger generations have access to the wealth of human knowledge 908 00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,440 Speaker 1: and the wealth of human art and culture and whether 909 00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:37,120 Speaker 1: that's a good thing or a bad thing are kind 910 00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:39,360 Speaker 1: of a mixed bag. And what you see for the 911 00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:42,520 Speaker 1: future of like the next generation, how they might be 912 00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:46,960 Speaker 1: able to make a difference substantively. Yeah, that's the biggest one, 913 00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:50,840 Speaker 1: isn't it. Um. I've got a teenager too and a 914 00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:57,640 Speaker 1: young daughter, and they, um, they have similar advantage on 915 00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:00,800 Speaker 1: the world right now. And it's it's like there's a 916 00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,720 Speaker 1: lot of uh doom and gloom in the narrative and 917 00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:07,919 Speaker 1: it's and it's real and it I think it kind 918 00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:13,120 Speaker 1: of goes back to UM that sense of like, yes, 919 00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:17,400 Speaker 1: there needs to be major change and all of our 920 00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:21,320 Speaker 1: policies and all of the way we do things as institutions, 921 00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:27,880 Speaker 1: and we're getting into like major global climate economic issues 922 00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:30,280 Speaker 1: like that, and it and it starts with what you're 923 00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:34,480 Speaker 1: doing right now. Your podcast leads people to the right 924 00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:38,160 Speaker 1: questions at the very least and the right answers, and 925 00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:41,120 Speaker 1: the way that you discuss it in such a kind 926 00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:48,400 Speaker 1: of genuine thorough way is really admirable. And that's what 927 00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:50,800 Speaker 1: I love about the podcast, as one my wife loves 928 00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,040 Speaker 1: about the podcast. And so you know, you guys are 929 00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:59,360 Speaker 1: cultural creators, right, You've chosen that realm. It's not directly political, 930 00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:03,600 Speaker 1: but it is UM a chance for people to engage 931 00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:07,200 Speaker 1: with with meaningful content. And so the kids are gonna 932 00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,640 Speaker 1: do something totally unexpected. They're going to continue to do that, 933 00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:12,480 Speaker 1: and they're going to do things that we don't even 934 00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:21,240 Speaker 1: understand UM, but we're UM hopefully providing them with stories 935 00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:27,400 Speaker 1: that involve the challenges. The stories we're telling involved the 936 00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,360 Speaker 1: challenges that involves going into that cave that we fear 937 00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:32,520 Speaker 1: to enter and coming out with the boon and being 938 00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:34,720 Speaker 1: able to share with others. And it goes back to 939 00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:38,840 Speaker 1: that individual journey of like being able to um like 940 00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:44,120 Speaker 1: really reckon with what we're most afraid of in ourselves 941 00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:46,640 Speaker 1: and then being able to come out and give something 942 00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:51,840 Speaker 1: to others. So I know that's uh, seems like platitudes, 943 00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:55,000 Speaker 1: but with the enormity of the issue is going on 944 00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:58,440 Speaker 1: and we are just these little individuals, it's like that's 945 00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:01,480 Speaker 1: I think that's a challenge at hand, is to look 946 01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,520 Speaker 1: inward and to come out and contribute. Well, I don't 947 01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,560 Speaker 1: accept any of the kind of things that you just 948 01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,880 Speaker 1: said to us towards us, but the other stuff right on, 949 01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:19,760 Speaker 1: Yes you do, Matt, and you're grateful man, Jeff. The 950 01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:23,040 Speaker 1: concept you described just a few moments ago sounds so 951 01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:26,520 Speaker 1: exciting to me. I was joking about being afraid of 952 01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:28,160 Speaker 1: being a part of it. I'm I just know I'm 953 01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:31,080 Speaker 1: one of those people that would fox Molder down the 954 01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:33,080 Speaker 1: rabbit hole of whatever it is, and even if I 955 01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:36,480 Speaker 1: helped create it, I would be all in. I don't 956 01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:38,560 Speaker 1: want to be I don't want to be that guy, 957 01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:42,120 Speaker 1: but I know everyone out there listening is very excited 958 01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:45,720 Speaker 1: just to to hear, to see and experience whatever the 959 01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:49,640 Speaker 1: next thing is that you work on. Uh, just as 960 01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:53,000 Speaker 1: I am. Thank you so much for joining us, so 961 01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:55,320 Speaker 1: for a great kind of central location to check out 962 01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:58,560 Speaker 1: everything that Jeff and his collaborators are working on. Head 963 01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:00,800 Speaker 1: on over two and O n E H A L 964 01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:04,120 Speaker 1: A n c E dot com. That's non chalance dot Com. 965 01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:06,640 Speaker 1: From there it links out to oaklandsh kind of the 966 01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:09,680 Speaker 1: sort of like original concept that led to the the 967 01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:13,080 Speaker 1: June Institute, which led to the Latitude Society, which led 968 01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:15,520 Speaker 1: to the signal projects that we've talked about. The kind 969 01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:18,400 Speaker 1: of audio experience of all this, and they're all kind 970 01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:22,000 Speaker 1: of fingers on a hand or where branches on a tree. 971 01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:26,440 Speaker 1: And the design of all these pages is beautifully obscure 972 01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:28,280 Speaker 1: and like kind of at first like what even am 973 01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:30,520 Speaker 1: I looking at? Um? But if you want to go 974 01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:33,040 Speaker 1: to that website, nonchalance dot com, click on the icon 975 01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:35,240 Speaker 1: at the top and it gives you a link to 976 01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:36,880 Speaker 1: all of these other sites and they're like I mean 977 01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:39,000 Speaker 1: they honestly, Jeff, they remind me of the kind of 978 01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:43,280 Speaker 1: experimental websites of yesteryear. I'm trying to think of a few, 979 01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:46,040 Speaker 1: but there were some really cool ones that just used 980 01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:50,600 Speaker 1: like text and image overlays. These don't feel like particularly 981 01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:53,040 Speaker 1: like web three point oh or whatever, like there's a 982 01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:56,320 Speaker 1: cool analogu nous to all of your designs and UH, 983 01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:59,440 Speaker 1: and yet they still feel like you're interfacing with some weird, 984 01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:03,560 Speaker 1: esoteric machine that also kind of essentient in some way. 985 01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:06,080 Speaker 1: I just I like the whole vibe of these pages. 986 01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:08,120 Speaker 1: And if you want to just do a dive into 987 01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:09,840 Speaker 1: some of these sites, you're gonna spend some time, because 988 01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:11,200 Speaker 1: each one of them is kind of a game in 989 01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:13,600 Speaker 1: and of itself. Just the website. I got a tip 990 01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:18,120 Speaker 1: my hat to UH designer Linda Dong who was able 991 01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:21,760 Speaker 1: to synthesize all that content into this vision which did 992 01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:28,240 Speaker 1: have that you know, low key retrotech aesthetic to which 993 01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:33,360 Speaker 1: she really delivered on on that site. Definitely not that's 994 01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:35,560 Speaker 1: beautiful stuff. They're kind of works of art in and 995 01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:38,920 Speaker 1: of themselves, and we'll give you tons of places to go. Um. Also, 996 01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:42,960 Speaker 1: Matt the documentary as well. Where can people stream that? Well? 997 01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:46,800 Speaker 1: I found it just through a Google search in bright Axiom. 998 01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:50,800 Speaker 1: You can find it streaming, I think in several places. Still, 999 01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:54,360 Speaker 1: I remember when we watched it for the Latitude Society 1000 01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:58,920 Speaker 1: episode it was it was available widely, and then also 1001 01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:02,400 Speaker 1: the AMC series that was based on that is available 1002 01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:06,200 Speaker 1: um on Hulu presumably and AMC if you have a 1003 01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:08,920 Speaker 1: subscription to that, And I actually was not aware of that. 1004 01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,560 Speaker 1: And I love I love the cast. It's got some 1005 01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:14,920 Speaker 1: really cool folks in it, Um Jason siegel Um and 1006 01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:18,600 Speaker 1: some other and Andre three thousand of E. T alien 1007 01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:21,720 Speaker 1: Um from right here, So very much looking forward to 1008 01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:24,080 Speaker 1: checking that one out as well. Yeah, Matt, you know, 1009 01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:28,040 Speaker 1: this has been a wonderful conversation. I'd really appreciate, uh, 1010 01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:30,880 Speaker 1: the time to chop it up with you guys. Let's 1011 01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:34,040 Speaker 1: do it again for sure. In the meantime, if you 1012 01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:36,240 Speaker 1: would like to find us as a show, you can 1013 01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:39,000 Speaker 1: do so. We are all over the internet anywhere you 1014 01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:42,360 Speaker 1: get internets. Yes, you can find us on Twitter and 1015 01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:46,560 Speaker 1: Facebook and YouTube where we are conspiracy stuff. On Instagram 1016 01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:50,080 Speaker 1: we are conspiracy stuff show, just a little extra show 1017 01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:53,320 Speaker 1: in there. If you don't like social media, we understand, 1018 01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:57,000 Speaker 1: trust us. You can instead use your phone for its 1019 01:03:57,040 --> 01:04:00,200 Speaker 1: intended purpose. It's right. You can call one three S 1020 01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:02,640 Speaker 1: T D W y t K, just like Jeff did 1021 01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:05,560 Speaker 1: take a page out of his book, leave us a message, 1022 01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:07,600 Speaker 1: let us know what to call you, what not to 1023 01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:10,600 Speaker 1: call you, give us permission to use your voice, and boom. 1024 01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:13,000 Speaker 1: You might hear yourself on one of our weekly listener 1025 01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:15,919 Speaker 1: Maile episodes. Uh. If you don't want to do any 1026 01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:18,840 Speaker 1: of that stuff, we've got another option for you. You 1027 01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:21,400 Speaker 1: can write us a good old fashioned email where we 1028 01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:43,800 Speaker 1: are conspiracy at i heart radio dot com. Stuff they 1029 01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:45,720 Speaker 1: Don't want you to know is a production of I 1030 01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:48,960 Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit 1031 01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:51,720 Speaker 1: the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 1032 01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:52,960 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows,