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Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.

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Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan. Hi,

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Speaker 2: you guys, welcome back to Killer Thriller Docu Edition. So

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Speaker 2: there are very few names in history that evoke the

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Speaker 2: kind of fascination and actually horror as Charles Manson and

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Speaker 2: for decades, books, documentaries, and films who tried to explain

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Speaker 2: the man behind one of America's most infamous crimes. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is a man that committed crimes when I started

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Speaker 2: committing the big ones when I was one, and I

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Speaker 2: had nightmares about Charles Manson and the movie Helter Skelter

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Speaker 2: continuously throughout my childhood. But what happens when the story

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Speaker 2: isn't just history, right? What happens when it's actually in

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Speaker 2: your family. So filmmaker Sophia Maddox spent years uncovering a

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Speaker 2: truth that would forever change how she saw herself, that

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Speaker 2: Charles Manson was her grandfather, And in her deeply personal

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Speaker 2: documentary My Grandfather Charles Manson, she takes viewers on an

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Speaker 2: emotional journey through identity, family secrets, generational trauma, and the

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Speaker 2: complicated search for answers. So, when I first found out

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Speaker 2: that I was going to interview Sophia. I was a

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Speaker 2: little nervous. I'm still a little nervous, so forgive me

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Speaker 2: you guys. I'm excited though, to talk to her. It's

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Speaker 2: just so intense. So today we are going to talk

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Speaker 2: to Sophia about discovering the truth, confronting her family's past,

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Speaker 2: and why telling this story became about so much more

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Speaker 2: than Charles Manson himself. Please welcome Sophia Maddox. Hi, Sophia, Hello,

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Speaker 2: how's it going.

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Speaker 1: Hi?

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: Of course, time you been here.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I have to tell you when I got

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Speaker 2: word that we were going to be interviewing Charles Manson's granddaughter,

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Speaker 2: I was, and I hadn't seen the documentary, and I

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Speaker 2: didn't know that a documentary was even coming out. My

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Speaker 2: head exploded a little bit, right, Like I grew up

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Speaker 2: like the scariest movie of my childhood was Helter Skelter,

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Speaker 2: and I was born in nineteen sixty eight, and so

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Speaker 2: you know, I grew up knowing all about Charles Manson

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Speaker 2: and the stories and how terrifying. And I mean, I

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Speaker 2: don't know if when you found out that Charles Manson

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Speaker 2: was your grandfather, you knew who that was, you're obviously

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Speaker 2: way way way younger than me, or if you had to,

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Speaker 2: if your dad shared with you, like his history, did

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Speaker 2: you have any idea about who he was when you

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Speaker 2: guys found out?

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Speaker 1: I did. I did because I really loved the Beatles.

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Speaker 1: I was fifteen years old and I was listening to

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Speaker 1: the White Album and the Beatles discography, and I just

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Speaker 1: happened to be on the White Album and listening to

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Speaker 1: Helter Skelter. You know, I googled the meaning of it

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Speaker 1: because I was like, the song makes no sense, like

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Speaker 1: it's kind of incoherent, and the Wikipedia page for Charles

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Speaker 1: Manson came up when I googled Halter Skelter meaning, just

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Speaker 1: to see if the Beatles had, you know, any meaning

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Speaker 1: in the song, which they don't. I remember reading it

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Speaker 1: and being like, how does this guy get that meaning

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Speaker 1: from this song? That makes no sense? And I exited

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Speaker 1: out of the browser. I'm not into true crime, so

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Speaker 1: it didn't like fascinate me by any means. And then

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Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen, I think Once upon a Time in

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Speaker 1: Hollywood came out and I'm I was an aspiring actress.

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Speaker 1: I hadn't quite turned into a filmmaker when I was

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Speaker 1: seventeen yet, but I was a fan of all of

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Speaker 1: those I am a fan of all of those people

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Speaker 1: and those artists involved, Leo Margot, Robbie Tarantino, pit like

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Speaker 1: this is the big it's the biggest movie. I remember

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Speaker 1: at a theater, like waiting in line to get a ticket.

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Speaker 1: The poster was up there, and I was like, Man,

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Speaker 1: does it get bigger than Brad Pitt and Leo on

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Speaker 1: that poster? That is Hollywood.

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Speaker 2: Hell, they didn't really, if I'm remembering correctly, They didn't

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Speaker 2: really delve too deeply into the murders. I mean, it

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Speaker 2: was there, but it wasn't about that at all. It

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Speaker 2: was just part right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Tarantino like changes history, you know in all of

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Speaker 1: his movies with and glorious bastards like Hitler didn't die

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Speaker 1: that way.

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Speaker 2: And no, I know, right right, right right, But I'm

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Speaker 2: they reversed it. Yeah, yeah, like he did it, but

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Speaker 2: not too much about it was even described or touched upon,

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Speaker 2: if I remember correctly, that wasn't really right. So but

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Speaker 2: you actually I'm trying to figure out if it resonated

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Speaker 2: with you for some reason.

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Speaker 1: No, it didn't resonate at all. No, I was just

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Speaker 1: I'm a normal person consuming the movie, and there was

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Speaker 1: you know. I googled the context of Once upon a

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Speaker 1: Time in Hollywood to refresh myself, so that was like

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Speaker 1: the second time I read about Charles Manson. But what

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Speaker 1: sticks out with What stuck out to me was like

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Speaker 1: how awful those murders were, and how insane that sounds,

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Speaker 1: Like how do you get that meaning from this song

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Speaker 1: to start a race for? And what would compel anyone

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Speaker 1: to order murders to occur in order to start one?

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Speaker 1: It really, quite frankly, made no sense to me, so

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Speaker 1: I didn't give it much thought. But when my dad said, honey,

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Speaker 1: I found out who my father is, and I think

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Speaker 1: it's really dark. The darkest thing I could think of

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Speaker 1: was actually Ted Bundy, and I knew if my dad

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Speaker 1: said it was dark, it had to be famously dark,

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Speaker 1: because my dad does not talk about dark things at all.

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Speaker 1: He didn't raise me to watch dark movies, violent films,

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Speaker 1: true crime. He always called himself a pacifist and he

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Speaker 1: doesn't like to consume dark things. So if he said

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Speaker 1: it was dark, I knew it had to be famous.

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Speaker 1: And the worst thing I could think of was Ted Bundy,

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Speaker 1: and I just said it, almost facetiously but also serious,

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Speaker 1: just to be like, let's rule out Ted Bundy, and

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Speaker 1: he just said bigger. And then I thought about once

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Speaker 1: upon a time, and then I realized that guy, what's

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Speaker 1: his name, what's his name? What's name? Oh, Charles Manson,

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Speaker 1: And so I googled him because I didn't actually know

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Speaker 1: what he looked like. I realized, you know, I'd read

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Speaker 1: about him on Wikipedia, but I never looked at an

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Speaker 1: image of him. And when I looked at the image

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Speaker 1: plus that DNA test, I was like, yeah, that's your dad.

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Speaker 2: That must have been so hard, because I will tell

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Speaker 2: you that there is, obviously there is a resemblance. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I do not see it in you, not at all,

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Speaker 2: but I certainly see it between your dad and Charles Manson.

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Speaker 2: And I can only imagine how hard that must have

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Speaker 2: been for him. You know, I know that you guys

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Speaker 2: have been through it. I don't know where you're at

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Speaker 2: right now, but that is so completely understandable. But first

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Speaker 2: to have to take that in and then to have

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Speaker 2: to tell your daughter, I just it's inconceivable to me.

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Speaker 2: But you know what he did it, and I'm glad

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Speaker 2: he did it in my opinion, which means not a

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Speaker 2: lot in this case, but it was the right thing

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Speaker 2: to do. You deserve to know, and I don't know

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Speaker 2: how you managed to take that in as a young

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Speaker 2: I consider you a young person. So wow, So all

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Speaker 2: of it was a lot. So, but I want to

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Speaker 2: I want to ask you some questions because there were

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Speaker 2: things that I was wondering about in that document in

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Speaker 2: the documentary, and I just don't I don't think I

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Speaker 2: missed these things. But I'm going to ask you just

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Speaker 2: because so watching you and your dad and that relationship,

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Speaker 2: there was so much footage of how loving it was,

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Speaker 2: just the sweetest footage of him, you know, you in

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Speaker 2: bed and him kissing you and holding hands and all

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Speaker 2: of that. And we don't have to discuss this if

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Speaker 2: you don't want to. But I was wondering about your mom.

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Speaker 1: My mom and dad divorced when I was five, so

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Speaker 1: it was like joint custody. I saw them fifty to fifty.

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Speaker 1: My mom was always present in my life. She was

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Speaker 1: kind of like the breadwinner of the family, and she

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Speaker 1: was really consistent and uh took me to ballet class

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Speaker 1: every weekend, and she lived in one apartment my whole childhood,

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Speaker 1: whereas my dad it was a little bit turbulent, but

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Speaker 1: emost like financial struggles aside. It never you know, I

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Speaker 1: never complained once because my dad was so loving and

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Speaker 1: held my hand, kissed me on the forehead or cheek,

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Speaker 1: and you know, we watched movies and listened to music.

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Speaker 1: We spent quality time together. And my I think my mom,

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Speaker 1: that's just not her parenting style. So the love I

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Speaker 1: had as a child I really felt from my dad.

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Speaker 1: And I know my mom loved me and everything, and

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Speaker 1: she showed it in different ways by investing in ballet

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Speaker 1: classes and taking me to auditions. But there was not

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Speaker 1: a lot of verbal communication or if we're talking about

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Speaker 1: love languages right, like quality time, wheres of reformation, physical touch,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't really there. If I could, you know, guess

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Speaker 1: what my mom's love language is now would be it'd

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Speaker 1: probably be of service. But my dad and I had

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Speaker 1: the same love languages, and I think we spoke the

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Speaker 1: same language there. So yeah, my dad was my rock.

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Speaker 2: Did she ask you not to leave her out of

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Speaker 2: the documentary, because I don't think, if I'm correct, you didn't.

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Speaker 2: I don't think you spoke of her at all.

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Speaker 1: No, I did not. It was like I made a

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Speaker 1: choice for myself, like I don't want to share my

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Speaker 1: mom's side of the family with the world. I'm not

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Speaker 1: doing this doc to tell all about my life. I

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Speaker 1: did the doc to shed light on subject matter that

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Speaker 1: went overlooked in the case of Charles Manson. And then

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Speaker 1: I realized how personal it was and how much we

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Speaker 1: inherited generationally without even knowing we inherited the trauma. You know,

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Speaker 1: we had this dark cloud over our heads, especially my

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Speaker 1: dad of course, because he always wanted to know who

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Speaker 1: his father was. And even in the doc he has

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Speaker 1: I interviewed him and he recounted the time in twenty

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Speaker 1: seventeen before he found out who his father is. He

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Speaker 1: shut down. He stopped being a dad, he stopped working,

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Speaker 1: he got evicted, he lost his car. So I think

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Speaker 1: that's like something that people may not really fully fathom

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Speaker 1: and understand that it was haunting us, it was haunting him.

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Speaker 1: So this is purely about my dad's side of the

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Speaker 1: family and not my mom. So I wanted to leave

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Speaker 1: it out. I had some people on my team who

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Speaker 1: wanted to put stuff with my mom in and I

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Speaker 1: just adamantly rejected it and put my foot down and

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Speaker 1: held my boundaries up.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad that. I mean, I'm glad that I could

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Speaker 2: ask you about it, though, because I just I was

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Speaker 2: of course wondering, you know, was your mom there for

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Speaker 2: you when all of this was going down, and and

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Speaker 2: then also if your father was a single parent, what

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Speaker 2: did that look like? So I mean, and I totally

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Speaker 2: appreciate why you would have wanted to wanted to leave

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Speaker 2: out of it. Maybe she wants to be left out

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Speaker 2: of it as well, So I respect that. I'm just

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Speaker 2: but I'm appreciative that you, you know, let me in a

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Speaker 2: little bit on where she isn't all this but so

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Speaker 2: you said, you started out wanting to give context to

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Speaker 2: what the world knew about Charles Manson, and it instead

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Speaker 2: Please forgive me if I'm not stating this and the

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Speaker 2: way that you want me to, But it came about

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Speaker 2: you and your dad. Do you feel like that's true?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Definitely. The story shifted and revealed itself as I

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Speaker 1: was making the documentary, and I definitely feel like in

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Speaker 1: order to shed light on the subject matter I wanted

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Speaker 1: to shed light on, you had to look at how

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Speaker 1: that trickled down to me and how it affected me

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Speaker 1: and my dad, and that's where generational trauma kicks in.

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Speaker 1: So it was like, when I started this process, I

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Speaker 1: knew that there was generational trauma, but I but I

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Speaker 1: didn't know like the vocabulary words to say it, not

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Speaker 1: until like Hulu got me a therapist and she started

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Speaker 1: talking about coping mechanisms that have been passed down from

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Speaker 1: parent to child. So as I kept investigating and doing

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Speaker 1: the work, that story revealed itself to me in the process.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that the trauma for your dad, obviously

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Speaker 2: not knowing who his dad was was completely traumatic and

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Speaker 2: that trauma I think you're saying, was passed down to you.

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Speaker 2: But for most of his life he didn't know who

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Speaker 2: his father was, so there was a whole new level

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Speaker 2: of trauma when he found out. But do you think

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Speaker 2: that Charles Manson being your grandfather somewhere in there? It's

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Speaker 2: because generational trauma is like I'm just going to give

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Speaker 2: a for instance, like they say, because I'm a Jewish women,

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Speaker 2: we have general rational trauma from the Holocaust. Your genes

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Speaker 2: literally change right as a people when you go through trauma.

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Speaker 2: So I don't think your dad ever knew Charles Manson,

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Speaker 2: But do you feel like somehow it was in there,

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Speaker 2: like some kind of like Charles Manson being his father

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Speaker 2: affected him as he was even though he didn't know it,

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Speaker 2: and it affected you. Is that kind of what you're saying?

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Speaker 1: Yes, I mean on so many levels. We can talk

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Speaker 1: about all the different examples something I actually haven't shared yet,

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Speaker 1: not even I mean, I think maybe it was like

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Speaker 1: trying to be in the doc but we only have

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Speaker 1: an hour and forty five minutes. But you know, my

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Speaker 1: dad made short films about a man who was about

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Speaker 1: to be executed for a murder that he didn't commit.

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Speaker 1: He had dreams about being wanted murder. My dad had

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Speaker 1: dreams about being wanted from murder. No idea why? Like why?

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Speaker 1: And and maybe those are coincidences because you know I

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Speaker 1: had you know, I think everyone might have a fear of,

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Speaker 1: like what if I went to prison for something that,

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Speaker 1: you know, whatever, it's, it's a fear. If everyone's fear

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Speaker 1: is to you know, be in prison at least, And

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Speaker 1: I think and but you know, my dad was born

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Speaker 1: to a teenage mom, and so was Charles. They both

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Speaker 1: took on last names that had that had nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with their family, but boyfriends that came and went.

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Speaker 2: Was he close by the way with your mom's boyfriend

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Speaker 2: when he took his name? So I was wondering that

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Speaker 2: the relation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, no. So we were the only family

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Speaker 1: we had. My dad was like homeless by the time

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Speaker 1: he was fifteen, and he made his way to Hollywood

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Speaker 1: as an actor and a model. Charles was also a

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Speaker 1: homeless kid, picked up, went to Jubi Holmes Prisons, and

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Speaker 1: he when he was released in his early thirties, he

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Speaker 1: went to Hollywood as a musician. So why are these

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Speaker 1: parallels happening? Is it? And then like these patterns of

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Speaker 1: trauma where we're very lonely or we might be failures

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Speaker 1: like there was. So there was just this huge identity

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Speaker 1: crisis like why did like my dad thinking like why

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Speaker 1: did my my mother beat me up when I was

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Speaker 1: ten years old for no reason?

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Speaker 2: That was so hard to watch.

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Speaker 1: It's like, oh, okay, that's why it's she found out

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Speaker 1: my father's Charles Manson and all of that fear, all

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Speaker 1: of that shame that you know, was so present. So

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Speaker 1: it showed up in so many different ways, and it

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Speaker 1: might be in DNA, like you said it might be spiritual.

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Speaker 1: It might be like, you know, my dad's survival mechanisms,

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Speaker 1: growing up without parents or abusive parents and then being

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Speaker 1: sleeping on park benches at fifteen. Yeah, he doesn't trust.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I'm the longest relationship he ever had.

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Speaker 1: And even that stopped when I was seventeen, then came

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Speaker 1: back around, and then stopped again when another traumatic thing happened.

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Speaker 1: So like, looking at those patterns was so important for

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Speaker 1: me to be open and honest with because I don't

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Speaker 1: think I've ever seen a doc or a movie that

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Speaker 1: really pinpoints what generational trauma looks like. And even though

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Speaker 1: we might be such a large, infamous example of it,

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Speaker 1: I think it happens more often than we think. And

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Speaker 1: I hope someone else feels a little less lonely in

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Speaker 1: their in their journey if they're going through anything like it.

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Speaker 2: I when you say generational trauma, I think about because

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Speaker 2: some may say, well, you know your father didn't know

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Speaker 2: his father. How does that? How did those genes? How

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Speaker 2: does it pass on? If let's say Charles Manson was

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Speaker 2: born without having this hideous life of you know, of

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Speaker 2: violence and trauma. But Charles Manson was incarcerated almost his

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Speaker 2: whole life, like from a very young age. I think

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Speaker 2: that's for me. That's like, okay, so Janes are changing.

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Speaker 2: Then he meets this woman and they have your father.

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Speaker 2: So that is because I think sometimes people don't Maybe

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Speaker 2: I didn't always understand what that means, right, but like

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Speaker 2: as you can even change as a people, but something

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Speaker 2: in you changes, and it's passed down. The trauma response

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Speaker 2: when it's triggered, even not knowing your father, his father

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Speaker 2: was passed down.

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Speaker 1: Right, exactly, That's exactly it. And I don't know if

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Speaker 1: everyone will understand that or get that. I think it

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Speaker 1: takes a kind of a person who's looked at science

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Speaker 1: and epigenetics or you know, I don't even have like

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Speaker 1: the scientific terms for it, but my dad would say

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Speaker 1: things like that, like it's in our blood, it's in

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Speaker 1: our DNA. But also like generational trauma with Manson aside,

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Speaker 1: like my grandmother and that trauma she realized the person

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Speaker 1: she hooked up with turned out to be, you know,

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Speaker 1: second to Hitler respond of Satan cult leader, serial killer,

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Speaker 1: and how that what trauma response she had to my

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Speaker 1: dad And that led to me. So it's like all,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's not just Manson to my dad. To me,

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Speaker 1: it's like everyone involved in the family has gone through

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Speaker 1: some sort of trauma. And yeah, the my dad would

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Speaker 1: say were dysfunctional people raised by dysfunctional people.

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Speaker 2: Welcome. I mean not, they're different. Obviously they're different levels, right,

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Speaker 2: But I think that's that description, is that you're casting

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Speaker 2: a wide net there. But I'm curious in terms of

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Speaker 2: like when you found out and I don't maybe you know,

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Speaker 2: people view things differently, and I what I saw was

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Speaker 2: your dad being so traumaize, traumatized by the information itself. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so put aside like the generational trauma that he really

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Speaker 2: didn't want to deal with this. And I thought to myself,

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Speaker 2: if I was in that position, would I want the

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Speaker 2: world to know that I was Charles Manson's son? And

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Speaker 2: what does that look like, right for the rest of

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Speaker 2: his life? What if that's something that he wanted to

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Speaker 2: keep private because it could affect him getting a job,

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Speaker 2: it could affect his relationships, it could affect So I'm wondering,

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Speaker 2: you know, I saw that from him. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if you felt that kind of a shame about it.

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Speaker 2: I felt it more and correct me if I'm wrong

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Speaker 2: from him, And then also I would think that that

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Speaker 2: would be why he was a lot of why he

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Speaker 2: was so angry. He did. He not want this documentary

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Speaker 2: to happen.

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Speaker 1: Not necessarily. He actually, first of all, kind of came

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Speaker 1: out as his son through the court system before my

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Speaker 1: doc was even in production.

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Speaker 2: But people knowing about it, I mean, like sharing it openly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean like if you googled his name a

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Speaker 1: couple of years ago, it would have popped up. But

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Speaker 1: also so when I told him I wanted to make

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Speaker 1: a doc about this and I had no money, he

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Speaker 1: had just sold a house and he gave me some

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Speaker 1: startup money and he sat in a chair and told

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Speaker 1: me his life story and signed an appearance release. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't mean it wasn't going to be hard for

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Speaker 1: him to do it with me the whole way, But

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Speaker 1: it was something he supported and he you know, told me,

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Speaker 1: you know, remember I gave you startup money. I you know,

359
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Speaker 1: I did this for you, and you know, I think

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Speaker 1: you're going in the right direction, he said in the dock,

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Speaker 1: like over the phone. I think he wanted me to

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Speaker 1: uncover the things that should be uncovered, because it didn't

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Speaker 1: seem like anyone else was going to. However, like the

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Speaker 1: information we inherited while trying to figure out who Charlie

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Speaker 1: Manson is is very traumatic, you know, we not and

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Speaker 1: like you start off with the murders themselves, right, how

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Speaker 1: many stab wounds, how many victims, their names, the people

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Speaker 1: who stab those people? That's it was traumatic for me

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Speaker 1: to read. And no doubt someone coming like two people coming,

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Speaker 1: my dad and I coming from a place where we

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Speaker 1: you know, looked at zero true crime. It was kind

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Speaker 1: of crazy. I knew about Ted Bundy. I think the

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Speaker 1: Netflix stock had come out, so I knew about him

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Speaker 1: because of that coming out. But to go from not

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Speaker 1: consuming that sort of thing to now having to completely

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Speaker 1: face it was very traumatic. And then and then further

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Speaker 1: than that, start to really investigate who Manson was as

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Speaker 1: a human being and not like a figure of Satan

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Speaker 1: or whatever. You can tell. My dad thinks everything is

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Speaker 1: a lie, and I don't blame him, But for me,

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Speaker 1: I'm like evidence based. I look at paperwork, I look

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Speaker 1: at documents, I read transcripts, I interview people face to face.

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Speaker 1: He couldn't do any of.

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Speaker 2: That, so via, yeah, can you expand upon that a

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Speaker 2: little bit. What do you think he thinks is a lie?

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to expand on it because I I

387
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Speaker 1: don't really want to. It's not I know, this is

388
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Speaker 1: like a true crime podcast, but I think I'm gonna

389
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Speaker 1: let the dogs speak for itself. It's not super helpful

390
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Speaker 1: coming from me, but I just really encourage people, you know,

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Speaker 1: to research, you know, do their own. I'm not here

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Speaker 1: to tell people what to think, but you know, my

393
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Speaker 1: there's been sensationalism, and my dad got overwhelmed and he

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Speaker 1: got fed up, and he didn't want to believe any

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Speaker 1: word anyone says anymore because because he didn't know what

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Speaker 1: to believe. And that's a very human reaction, and I

397
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Speaker 1: think that's what he couldn't handle doing. He was shocked

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Speaker 1: that I was able to like face ex convicts or

399
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Speaker 1: family members. He was like, oh, I can't do that.

400
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Speaker 1: Like I can't do that.

401
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Speaker 3: So I.

402
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Speaker 1: Was raised much differently from my dad. My dad was there,

403
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Speaker 1: and he made me strong, and so did my mom,

404
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: and so did my upbringing. I went to school, he

405
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Speaker 1: never graduated high school. I think his confidence in himself

406
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Speaker 1: is so different than mine, you know what I mean,

407
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Speaker 1: Like I felt I could take this On. I felt

408
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Speaker 1: like I could be a Joan of Arc and he

409
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Speaker 1: at sixty two years old, his life just turned upside

410
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Speaker 1: down and we just coped in different ways.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we don't talk. You know, it's hard to

412
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Speaker 2: talk to you about any of this because for me,

413
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Speaker 2: it was the documentary is obviously it's about you finding

414
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Speaker 2: out that your grandfather's Charles Manson, but it feels even

415
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 2: more about you and your dad. I mean, do you

416
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Speaker 2: feel like that I.

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Speaker 1: Tried to split it half fifty to fifty, but you know,

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Speaker 1: it is what it is.

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Speaker 2: So I'm but I had questions at the end of it.

420
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Speaker 2: So like I was saying, pay, let's put aside where

421
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Speaker 2: he stood at the end, and I didn't know exactly

422
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Speaker 2: where you stood at the end in terms of like

423
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Speaker 2: what was fabricated? What about the crimes do you believe

424
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Speaker 2: were reported not accurately? Like I couldn't. I wasn't quite

425
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Speaker 2: clear on that, Like what part of Charles Manson's story

426
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Speaker 2: because you've done so much research and you read all

427
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,959
Speaker 2: the transcripts and interviewed these people face to face, what

428
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Speaker 2: do you think is not true?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, if I can say honestly, I don't

430
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Speaker 1: know if I'm even allowed, but if you watched the documentary,

431
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Speaker 1: my conversation with Stephen Kay, the assistant prosecutor to Buliosi,

432
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the doc speaks for itself. I'll

433
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,199
Speaker 1: say this. When I found out who my grandfather was,

434
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 1: and I looked up you know, Wikipedia and watched Once

435
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: upon a Time, and I believed every headline I sincerely did.

436
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: I believed everything that was said about him. And when

437
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: I started talking to my uncle Mike, who matched with

438
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,360
Speaker 1: my dad on ancestry.

439
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 2: That's Charles Manson's other.

440
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,880
Speaker 1: Sonne Yeah, and I had interviewed him for the doc.

441
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 1: He didn't end up being in it, but he was

442
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: very supportive too. So my dad and my uncle, you know,

443
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 1: both gave their blessing to do this. But he went

444
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 1: his whole life believing the same thing too. The headlines

445
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 1: the Wikipedia page Helter Skelter Vincent Buliosi, the prosecutor's book

446
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: Helter Skelter Bugliosis, also in the Helter Skeltered movie, the

447
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: one that you referenced earlier in the interview. He believed

448
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: everything as as did I. It wasn't until Manson died

449
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: that Mike started looking into things and he had some regret,

450
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,479
Speaker 1: so he you know, reached out and was like, if

451
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: you're interested in looking into this more, because there's more,

452
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: and then meets the eye. Here are some books and

453
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: he left me. He left me with some books and

454
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 1: like pointed me to tr out trial transcripts. And I

455
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 1: looked at raw transcripts, and I looked at who was where,

456
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: and I also looked into Vincent Buliosi and what kind

457
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: of person he is. He was he was a prosecutor,

458
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 1: he had domestic violence tendencies as well. I don't know,

459
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 1: I just started, like the wall started crumbling down. It

460
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: was like a rude awakening to like, oh, you should

461
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 1: trust him. You shouldn't just trust the media all the time,

462
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: like you should question, you should critically think. And Buliosi's

463
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: word doesn't mean it's fact. His job was to make up,

464
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 1: to build a story to prosecute, and he did it

465
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: very successfully. He's a very smart guy. But like my

466
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: therapist said in the beginning of the doc, it's she said, Sophia,

467
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: it sounds like you're inheriting some there's some sensationalism around

468
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: your grandfather, and it's your god given right to as

469
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: a descendant of someone sensationalized to figure out who exactly

470
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: you come from, because otherwise you are inheriting sensational wounds

471
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 1: and that's not going to be helpful to break generational traumas.

472
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 1: So yeah, I could have stopped at the headlines and

473
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 1: just like worked through Okay, you know he is all

474
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: of these things. I could have, but I don't know.

475
00:27:45,800 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: I dove right in.

476
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 2: Well, you said at the beginning of the interview that

477
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 2: you wanted to do there was two things that were

478
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: going on here, right, You wanted to sort of expose

479
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 2: I don't know if you put it that way, but

480
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 2: maybe just expose the reality some of the untruths. And

481
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: also it became about you and your dad. So like,

482
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's right. Those are the two

483
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 2: halves of what's happening in this documentary. You are researching

484
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 2: the reality of Charles Manson and also looking at the

485
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 2: reality of what you, you know, and your dad have become.

486
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: So I guess, well that was later the first few

487
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: months of knowing and investigating, I had no idea I'd

488
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: ever do a documentary, you know what I mean, Like,

489
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: I was just for myself. I'm like, I don't really

490
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: know who this guy is like, I guess Wikipedia doesn't

491
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: have all the answers, right.

492
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 2: I guess, yeah. But what I want to know is

493
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: what's important to you in terms Often you can't you know,

494
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 2: you're not. People will believe what they want to believe,

495
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: and they'll they'll watch to the doc and they'll, you know,

496
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: draw their own conclusions. But I guess I want to

497
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 2: know what's important. What's the message from you? And so

498
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 2: you and your dad and that relationship is complex and

499
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 2: obviously a lot of the focuses on that what you

500
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: don't really want to speak to what was true and

501
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 2: what was not true? But which parts of it? Like

502
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 2: do you think you I was a viewer? I am

503
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 2: a viewer. I walk away. Would you like me to

504
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: walk away feeling like maybe he wasn't he didn't physically

505
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 2: commit the crimes.

506
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 1: No, I don't want I don't have any expectation or

507
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: want anyone to walk away with a certain like belief

508
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: system over what happened. But I think what I wanted

509
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: the audience to take away from is that let's go

510
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,479
Speaker 1: like the family side of the generational trauma side. I

511
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: wanted people to walk away from it understanding like you

512
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: can come from the worst of the worst, infamously or

513
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: not infamously. And if you decide to be a good person,

514
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: if you want to be a good person, if you

515
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: do the work, and if you believe in who you are,

516
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: and it's really hard to love yourself when it feels

517
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: like no one else loves you back. That's a very

518
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: hard thing to learn. My dad had to learn it.

519
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: He didn't feel like anyone loved him. You know, I

520
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: was lucky and I was born with a dad who

521
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: loved me. But to find love within yourself that and

522
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: especially if you come from a dark place, that it

523
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: shoudn't matter that your dreams are going to be valid

524
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: and your life is going to have great meaning. Right

525
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: That was the you know, main takeaway I wanted people

526
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: to walk away with. And like regards to Manson, I

527
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: think like I think doctor Shug the rorshack exam examiner

528
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: who's a criminal psychologist, so his job is to work

529
00:30:55,120 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: with criminals who are incarcerated right now. And Dan who

530
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: was the juvenile justice reform expert who spoke with me

531
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: at Indiana Boys' School. It's so important to look at

532
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: the root cause of violence in order for it to

533
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: stop happening. In order for cycles to end, you must

534
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: look at the root cause of things. I think labeling,

535
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: you know, evil hitler like person that might wrap it

536
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: up in a bow for many people, and it's easy

537
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: palatable for people to take that in. It gets complicated

538
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: when you look at how a human was able to

539
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: do some like be a part of something so awful.

540
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: You definitely included a lot in terms of, you know,

541
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 2: the history of him a person hurting people, and in

542
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: terms of the drugs of it all.

543
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, my interest is like trying to stop the cycle.

544
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: So if it's like stopping the cycle of abuse in

545
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: family dynamics and traumas, like also, how can we stop

546
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: crimes like this from happening again?

547
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 2: So I have questions about I know that at least

548
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: from what I understand. Correct me if I'm wrong. You

549
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 2: and your dad are not in contact right now.

550
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:14,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he's blocked me.

551
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 2: I saw obviously the scene in the car, which was

552
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 2: very upsetting and sad, and I'm sorry for that, and

553
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: I am wondering though, you know, he it was so

554
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 2: clear to see how much he loves you and you

555
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 2: love him, and so what is he? What was I

556
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 2: don't really what happened that you're not speaking now? Was

557
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 2: it after the car scene?

558
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I yeah, I mean it was a fight

559
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: we had. We've had lots of fights, like you can

560
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: even see it when I was a child, and I

561
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: don't really remember that child car fight happening. But my team,

562
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: my dad gave me a hard drive of all the

563
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: childhood videos and photos he ever took of me, Like

564
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: you could make a whole documentary of my childhood just

565
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: from those videos. And he gave it to me, you know,

566
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: to help with the doc and I gave it to

567
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: my team and the editors. There's just so much footage

568
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: of me as a baby, and they found how they

569
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: found a car fight you know, when I was I

570
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: think I must have been like thirteen, and it really

571
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: resembles and mirrors what happened as an adult. I say, like,

572
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: I'm not mad, I'm not mad. I'm trying to like

573
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: de escalate, de escalate, and you know he's having, you know,

574
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: some sort of mental health thing going on, and it's

575
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: taking it out on me. And I think what I

576
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: can glean looking back, my dad can break in stressful

577
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: situations and in the car fight, in the car fight

578
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: with me as a kid. I don't know if you

579
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: can really tell, but he's really stressed about money, and

580
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: he's stressed about working, and you know, I'm taking care

581
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: of you and I'm sticking around. I've got to work.

582
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: And then as an adult, it's like we found out

583
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: who were related to and we found out we've inherited

584
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: some huge conspiracy. Like it's unprece attented. It's like it's

585
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: wild and frankly, the fight started with something so small

586
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: and minute, and it just kept escalating.

587
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 2: Why were you guys taping it? Were you going somewhere

588
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 2: that you were?

589
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: I was taking him to get acupuncture for his back

590
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 1: and neck, I offered, And when I was driving back home,

591
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: we got in a fight and he started calling me names.

592
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: So I pulled over and put my emergency lights on

593
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 1: and started recording, like not for the doc, but for

594
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: safety purposes, because I felt if someone else was in

595
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: the car right now, you would not be calling me

596
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: those names. Like you cannot get away with this, you

597
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 1: cannot keep getting away with this, So I record. I

598
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: showed it him. I was like, say that again to me,

599
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: and he said, and he starts saying, no, no, I'm

600
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,760
Speaker 1: not going to do that because he knows now someone

601
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,959
Speaker 1: could watch this one day, and then once they start

602
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: pulling back into the road, he starts calling me names again.

603
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: So it was just like for me, a stress response

604
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: of like, this isn't right, this isn't okay. I'm not

605
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,399
Speaker 1: mad at you, I love you, I'm holding space for you,

606
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,439
Speaker 1: but this isn't okay for you to say these things

607
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: to me. So I started recording, and that's why I'm like,

608
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 1: that's when I say, like, do you want to say

609
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: those things again to me? Because I'm recording it.

610
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 2: Now right right? Why was he so mad? What happened

611
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 2: in the car before that?

612
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: You know? I told him it's gonna sound really, really silly.

613
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: I told him that he shouldn't tell women to smile.

614
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: For me, it was like a thing that happened to

615
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: me as a kid all the time. I would take

616
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: Uber cars Uber rides to like Ballet and the drivers

617
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: to be male sometimes and they'd always be like, you

618
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: should smile, you should smile more. And so I saw

619
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: him do it to a woman. I was like, Dad,

620
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:12,959
Speaker 1: don't tell women a smile, And it just escalated from there. Yeah,

621
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: it could have been anything though, if it wasn't that

622
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: My dad's mechanism for coping with stressful things is to

623
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: push people away. And he's I'm not the only one

624
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: he's pushed away. He's pushed away everyone in his life.

625
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 1: So I have sibling, like one sibling and a half

626
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 1: sibling who hasn't spoken to him in a year and

627
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: a half.

628
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 2: It's not just me, So okay, So now so I'm sorry,

629
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 2: But the sibling thing, where are they? Are you in

630
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 2: touch with them? Are you? Are these people that you?

631
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I'm in touch, but they don't want

632
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: to They didn't want to be in the dock. They

633
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: appreciated it and they saw it and yeah.

634
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so he I mean, it's hard to imagine

635
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 2: a father block like I can father blocking a daughter.

636
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 2: That must be so hard and so so hurtful. Give

637
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 2: any idea like why would he say that he did

638
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 2: it because he was so angry with you for recording him?

639
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 2: Do you think that's that was his bottom line?

640
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: No, because he's blocked me before when I was like

641
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: a teenager. So it's funny because like out of context,

642
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 1: everyone might be like, oh, it's because she recorded him.

643
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: Oh it's because she's doing this doc but these these

644
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: things have been happening before Manson came up on the scene.

645
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: He blocked me when I was seventeen, eighteen years old too.

646
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: I didn't speak for a couple of years. That was

647
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: before Manson came up in our lives. He blocked my

648
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 1: half sister a year prior to blocking me, and I

649
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: told him. I was like, you know, I'm afraid you'll

650
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: do that to me one day. He's like, no, no,

651
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: I won't. But it's you know, I can't speculate. He

652
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: hasn't taken any mental health tests, but in speaking to

653
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: my therapist or the Worshack exam psychiatrist, you know, those

654
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: behaviors align with someone who struggles with you know what

655
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: I think might be X y Z. I'm not going

656
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 1: to say it because those aren't like it's not certain.

657
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: There's not a test that I can confirm them.

658
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: Are you saying mental illness or you're saying something bigger

659
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 2: than that?

660
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: No, hypomania, bipolar like, narcissism like these are speculation, you know,

661
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: but you know, without I asked them to get a test,

662
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,919
Speaker 1: and I asked him to seek therapy and to talk

663
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: to people. But when I talk about my experiences with

664
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: my therapists. She does say, like those behaviors and actions

665
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: aligned with someone who has X, Y and Z, not psychopathy,

666
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 1: not like schizophrenia. Like I think people jump there because

667
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,919
Speaker 1: of the Manson of it all. But even Manson wasn't schizophrenic.

668
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 1: He was schitz a tipple, which actually skits a tipple

669
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: if you google it. It's not seeing things that aren't there.

670
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: It's pushing people away and isolating yourself. So you know,

671
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: I took that rorshack exam compared it to Manson's results

672
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: for a reason to see what was in my nature

673
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: if I inherited anything in my nature, to look at

674
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 1: what he had in his nature, I think it's a

675
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: fair thing for me to be curious about. Yeah, definitely,

676
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: And luckily I didn't have anything there. But I also know,

677
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: like if he was born with schizotypal hypomania, bipolar I'm

678
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: talking about Manson, I know that if he was born

679
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: with those things, it was only exacerbated by his time

680
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: in those institutions and in prisons. And I also know

681
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: that my dad had similar experiences as a child, being abandoned,

682
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: being homeless, having gone to Mount Low Military Academy. So

683
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 1: like I don't think my dad is a bad person.

684
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 1: I think I have a lot of you know, grace

685
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: with him, and we've talked about, you know, potential mental

686
00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: health stuff that he might have. And unfortunately, I think

687
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 1: my generation is more open and destigmatize those types of

688
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: things aptly, yes, and the older generation doesn't want to

689
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 1: look at it. So you know, I can't force him.

690
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 1: I can't force him to do anything.

691
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 2: And yeah, it was I have to say, I was

692
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 2: a fascinating documentary. And when you took the warshack, I

693
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 2: was not at all surprised that you had no traits

694
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 2: like your grandfather. That was not a surprise to me,

695
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 2: just and not that I don't know you, but in

696
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 2: what I was observing on the documentary. But I definitely

697
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 2: feel like at the end of it, I still had

698
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 2: questions and maybe that's what Maybe that was purposeful on

699
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 2: your end, And I started reading a little bit about

700
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 2: what other people thought, and I saw sort of like

701
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 2: the same questions are you experiencing that that people are asking?

702
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 2: Are people asking you the same questions? Are there are

703
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 2: the rec how do you how are you finding the

704
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 2: reactions to the documentary.

705
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: As it relates to like the case or me and.

706
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 2: My dad, you your dad, I mean yeah.

707
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: I mean like people are always asking me have you

708
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: talked to him since then? And the answer is truthful

709
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: and it is no. But I guess I guess that's it.

710
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 1: I think people just I had a few people go like, oh,

711
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: I was waiting for you guys to get back together.

712
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,240
Speaker 1: But then I realized this is documentary. It's real life,

713
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: and that doesn't happen a lot. So a lot of

714
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 1: people who have been abandoned my parent by parents or

715
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: had to abandon their parents for their own boundaries and

716
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 1: protection really could like come to me and be like

717
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: that was so real.

718
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like because I still I don't

719
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 2: quite get it. I don't quite get why and how

720
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,439
Speaker 2: could I am not? But I wonder if I'm seeing

721
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 2: it the way you see it, like you don't quite

722
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 2: get it why he has done this and why he

723
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 2: has blocked you in the way that he has because

724
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 2: I left, you know, when the documentary is over, I

725
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 2: had definitely it wasn't wrapped up in a bow in

726
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 2: any way, shape or form, which I think you probably

727
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 2: intended it not to be. But like you know, a

728
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 2: lot of times, because I do do true crime documentaries,

729
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 2: there's some some kind of there's an ending and there's

730
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 2: a finality to it or some kind of closure to it, right,

731
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 2: And didn't feel as much that way with this. I

732
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 2: wonder if you feel like still there's not a lot

733
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 2: of closure in the sense that you aren't talking to

734
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 2: your dad and you know, and again I don't really

735
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't think I truly understood what was

736
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 2: what were we going for here? Like was there a

737
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 2: lot are there a lot of questions about the authenticity

738
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 2: of his of Charles Manson's conviction and was he set up?

739
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 2: I left it with again with just tons of questions,

740
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 2: And maybe that's what you intended.

741
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been encouraged to write a book about everything

742
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: that I've learned, and lots of testimony and evidence did

743
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: not end up in the dock. But you know, I

744
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: think the finality of the movie is that I walk

745
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: away a little bit more free, free from my dad,

746
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 1: free from Charles Manson aka my grandfather. Right, Like I

747
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: had to go through the process of feeling like I

748
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,919
Speaker 1: was really tethered to this story because I was so young.

749
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: I found out when I was twenty two, and like

750
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 1: I say in the dock, or my therapist says, I

751
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: was groomed to carry victimhood. I'm a parentified child. There's

752
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: like this thing online that's a lot of memes about

753
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 1: the oldest daughter or like a lot of viral videos

754
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 1: about oldest daughter syndrome to take care of everyone, carrying

755
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 1: everyone's burdens. So for me, the final scene in the

756
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 1: movie is really finding my own identity, no longer carrying

757
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 1: the burdens that you know, my father, my grandfather you know,

758
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:23,360
Speaker 1: passed down on to me, no longer taking responsibility for

759
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: people's thoughts or opinions or actions. And also like the

760
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: survivor's guilt thing too, because my because Charles was complicit

761
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: in it no matter what. He may not have been there,

762
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 1: but you know, and it's up for speculation whatever you

763
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: might think, but he was undoubtedly a part of it

764
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: and complicit. And for me, like learning about his criminal

765
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: code and what he learned in prison as survival mechanisms

766
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 1: like to not snitch or get a brother out of jail.

767
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: Like that for me spoke more volume than just like

768
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 1: the evil guy that I read about in headlines, and

769
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: it makes me want to go into philanthropic work work

770
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 1: like helping at risk youth, or you know, looking at

771
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: prison reform and what can we be doing to stop

772
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 1: the cycles of abuse, to help people cope with the

773
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: outside world if they've been in prison their whole lives.

774
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:35,280
Speaker 1: I read in a parole letter right before Charles Manson

775
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 1: got out of prison. He wrote his parole board. He

776
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: was like thirty years old, and he begged not to

777
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: get out of prison. He begged to stick, for them

778
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 1: to keep him because he said, they're telling me I'm

779
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: too old for halfway housing. My recorders to my record

780
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 1: is too bad to get a job. I have no family,

781
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 1: and I have nowhere to go, and no one is

782
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 1: going to help me. And they let him out and

783
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: two years later the murders happened. Yeah, So for me,

784
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: looking at that route is so much more. It means

785
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: so much more to me because I feel like there's

786
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: actionable steps we can take to stop violence and to

787
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: stop these crimes from happening. And like I even though

788
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: that pro letter wasn't in the documentary, of course, and

789
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: like I still go to Indiana Boys' School. I still,

790
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: you know, look at how institutionalized he was. So I'm

791
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: hoping people you know, it'll it'll rise to the surface

792
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 1: for people when they walk away from the film, maybe

793
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:38,959
Speaker 1: like a few days later, it'll come up and they'll

794
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 1: be like, oh wow, yeah, I mean, and have their

795
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: own thoughts and opinions about it.

796
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 2: But was it hard for you to and I don't

797
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 2: know how much input you had, like final word what

798
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 2: was included and what wasn't was were you the decider

799
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 2: of that or I'm assuming there was some the director

800
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 2: and the producer, But were there things that you wanted

801
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 2: in it that didn't get in it or by or

802
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:03,839
Speaker 2: were there things that you did not want in it?

803
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: Yes, there's always things in every filmmaking like a process.

804
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: So it's not just me, but every film maker goes

805
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 1: through a grieving period because something that they loved couldn't

806
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 1: make it in their film. And of course I had that,

807
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: I definitely did. But I got as much as I

808
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,240
Speaker 1: could in and yeah, I'm a director and an EP

809
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: on it. But then it would it would have started

810
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:38,320
Speaker 1: getting into Wikipedia, you know, bullet point like evidence, evidence, evidence, evidence,

811
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 1: and you're getting to less storytelling. So I think I

812
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: was encouraged to like find another outlet for all of

813
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 1: the evidence that I gathered if I choose to one

814
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: day put it in a book. But I'm also like.

815
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 3: Listen, I'm also not a true crime enthusiast. I inherited

816
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 3: the most insane true crime story, but my goodness, I

817
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,280
Speaker 3: was like pursuing the arts. I dropped out of college

818
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 3: when I was twenty.

819
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 1: My mom really wanted me to work a corporate job

820
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 1: and be in human resources, and I tried and I

821
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,240
Speaker 1: couldn't do it, so I dropped out of school. I

822
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: founded my production company, Joan of Arc Pictures. I was

823
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 1: twenty one years old. I made a short film. I

824
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:26,240
Speaker 1: realized the friends that I had suddenly were all filmmakers.

825
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: I don't talk to one person from my high school,

826
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 1: elementary school, middle school because none of them are filmmakers

827
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 1: or artists. My best friends, a DP, my best friends,

828
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 1: and actress. So like, I'm not even a part of

829
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 1: this true crime world. And I always have to like

830
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 1: find a way to tow the line between manson crime

831
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 1: enthusiast because I am very well versed and researched, but

832
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 1: also remembering like I'm also so separate from it.

833
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 2: I so am, well, it's interesting because I have a

834
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,720
Speaker 2: true crime podcast. So then assume that I'm a true

835
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 2: crime aficionado fan. But the truth is, before the podcast,

836
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 2: I watched true crime, but I wasn't addicted to true

837
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 2: crime at all, not like so I didn't realize how

838
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,879
Speaker 2: many people are and how many people are just true

839
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 2: crime fanatics, but what I like about it. I am

840
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 2: now a true crime enthusiast. But it's not because I

841
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 2: don't get scared, and it's not because I enjoy watching

842
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 2: people in pain or blood, guts and gore. I've found

843
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:37,320
Speaker 2: that through this process there is always something that shines

844
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 2: through somehow, right, So whether I'm interviewing people who whose

845
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 2: sons were murdered when they were they were being there,

846
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 2: they were hazed, you know, at a fraternity, but like

847
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 2: now all these years later, these people that have been

848
00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 2: through it, their courage and they're resilient and now they

849
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 2: are changing laws. So that's that's an example. Or we've

850
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 2: been through, we've done you know, people that were wrongfully

851
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 2: convicted and watching that process and seeing what they've been through.

852
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 2: But there's always, at least so far I'm there's always

853
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 2: something that is human human, thank you, Yes, human, Yes.

854
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: Which is brilliant, that's beautiful.

855
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 2: Yes, And you certainly are that in this documentary and

856
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,839
Speaker 2: I told you already, but I was very taken aback

857
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 2: to think that we were going to even talk about

858
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 2: Charles Manson, so you know, to know that his look

859
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 2: at this genealogy, but look at this beautiful young woman

860
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 2: who is doing her thing and who is you may

861
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 2: have you know, there maybe generational trauma, but clearly, uh

862
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 2: you know you are not a product of him and

863
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:59,320
Speaker 2: what he did. So you know, it's it's scary, it's sad.

864
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 2: I'm very sad for you and your father. That was.

865
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 2: I'm sad that you're not talking now because I really

866
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 2: you were very good about showing what a loving dad

867
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 2: he was and how close that you were. So I

868
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 2: hope that you guys can can find each other again.

869
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 2: But yeah, it was. It was really fascinating and amazing

870
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 2: for someone I don't mean to be condescending, but your

871
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 2: age to have you know, been able to just express

872
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 2: yourself deal with this. I can't imagine. I mean, my

873
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 2: I have a twenty four year old daughter, twenty six

874
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 2: year old son. I'm assuming you're round.

875
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: I'm twenty six.

876
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 2: Well there you go, so I don't I can't imagine

877
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 2: them having to take all of this in and then

878
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 2: be productive with it. So good for you, yank you.

879
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 1: So not everyone's understanding that, but I think when I mean,

880
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 1: first of all, your kids are very lucky to have

881
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 1: you and have oh supportive parents, serious.

882
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 2: And nice thing to say, thank you.

883
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:01,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's the difference between me having done

884
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 1: this doc and me not. If I had two parents

885
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,879
Speaker 1: that really like held my hand through this, I may

886
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 1: not have made this dock. But because no one was

887
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 1: holding my hand through this, I you kind of go

888
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: a little crazy with it just being here that there

889
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:25,479
Speaker 1: was no physical manifestation of my life turning upside down

890
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 1: because everyone else was walking Lottie do.

891
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 2: So, how long after you found out did you make

892
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 2: the dock or did you begin to make the dock?

893
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,839
Speaker 1: So I found out May twenty twenty two, and by

894
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: December I realized I had a story and maybe I

895
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 1: could make a dock.

896
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 2: Maybe six months later. In that six months, did you

897
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 2: guys discuss it or was it just like we're putting

898
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 2: that away?

899
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 1: Yeah?

900
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 2: Was it?

901
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 1: It was like conversations here and there, Like I remember

902
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: looking up Manson's early life and a picture of him

903
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 1: popped up as a child, and I it hit me

904
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: like a freight train. I was like, I did text

905
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 1: my dad and I called him actually and I was like,

906
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 1: he looks exactly like you as a kid. This is insane.

907
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 2: You show the pictures.

908
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there was there's actually a different photo two

909
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,800
Speaker 1: of them near their the same age where they're a

910
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 1: little bit older and they have the same smile lines

911
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 1: and the eyes. And I'm just like, what is going on?

912
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: So there was like a few things here and there.

913
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,359
Speaker 1: My dad sent me this Tarantino Joe Rogan podcast where

914
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: they're talking about MK Ultra, and he'd be like, look

915
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:36,360
Speaker 1: at this, what are you know? What are they talking

916
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 1: about here? So I decided to read the book Chaos

917
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 1: by Tom O'Neil. So it was like few exchanges here

918
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,839
Speaker 1: and there, but you know, we didn't officially sit down

919
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 1: to talk about it until I interviewed him for my

920
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 1: documentary Sizzle Reel, which was like a year later. I

921
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 1: put my like, my dad gave me some some seed money.

922
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 1: My producer put his own money into it. I had

923
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 1: like no money to my name, was nannying teaching ballet.

924
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 1: I was a commercial actress. I wasn't telling anyone then

925
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: and there. It was just like I might have a

926
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 1: doc idea. I'm going to sit down with my dad

927
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: and interview him for a movie. And my dad and

928
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,400
Speaker 1: I are filmmakers, so he understood like the drive and

929
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 1: desire to make something out of something that we've been

930
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 1: dealt with, the cars that we've been dealt with. So

931
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 1: you know, it felt really lonely until like I was

932
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 1: actually on set and I had crew, producers and subjects

933
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: going through it with me. Yeah, which I felt bad for.

934
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 1: I'm like, I feel like I'm burdening people now.

935
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 2: But oh really had not been in the true crime world.

936
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 2: Then my friends believe me. Yeah, there's no time to

937
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,240
Speaker 2: feel bad. It is it is. It's a trip.

938
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

939
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 2: Well, listen, I'm so glad that you joined us, and

940
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you made the movie, and I'm

941
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 2: send you prayers and love and again, whatever is meant

942
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 2: to be will be. But I personally am rooting for

943
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 2: you and your dad, not that it means that doesn't

944
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 2: mean anything. Whatever's best for you, whatever's best for you.

945
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 2: But he my impression of him throughout the movie, of

946
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 2: course that scene was not good. But this is a

947
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,280
Speaker 2: man who really has been a devoted, loving father.

948
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's like my therapist said, what happens when

949
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,839
Speaker 1: you love from hurt places. Sometimes it's not always going

950
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 1: to be you know, healthy.

951
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 2: Well, nothing ever is completely healthy anyway. Yeah, thank you

952
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 2: so much for having me my pleasure. Good luck to you.

953
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: Thanks