1 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: Couples therapist, coach and author Carolyn Sharp is back. I'm 2 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: so glad to have you back. Thank you for being 3 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: here with us. 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 2: Kelly, I am thrilled to be back. I loved our 5 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 2: conversation a year ago and I'm so excited to get 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 2: to talk to you. 7 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: So if you guys missed that podcast, Carolyn wrote a 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: book called Fire It Up, and it's all about reigniting 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: the fire in your relationships. I know that's a very 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,599 Speaker 1: common theme amongst so many couples. I'm in my forties, 11 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: so I think that's kind of the phase. I'm sure 12 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: this happens in different phases, but there's a big phase 13 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: of it happening in the forties where people just get 14 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,319 Speaker 1: really stagnant in their relationships, not that they want them 15 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: to end, but they don't know how to get back 16 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: to the fire. And so we talked about that. It 17 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: was a great conversation. Go check that one out if 18 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: you haven't heard it yet. But you're back today because 19 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: you released a ted X talk in December, and to me, 20 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: it was so much of the stuff that we talk 21 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: about on this podcast, the stuff that I want to 22 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: put out into the world, and some insight into maybe 23 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: some changes we could individually make to help bring communities 24 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: back together, because I think if anyone listening isn't feeling this, 25 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: I would be shocked. But I think all of us 26 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: are just feeling this massive disconnect and divisiveness, and it's 27 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: been happening for years now. I'm personally exhausted, and so 28 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: I'm very open to hearing any sort of ways that 29 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 1: we can come back together. But I first want to 30 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 1: talk about what's actually happening. So the teTeX is called 31 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: connection equals survival, and I think that one of the 32 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: main things happening that I see is that we do 33 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: not do that. Like we have so disconnected from each other, 34 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: from ourselves all these different things, and so we're getting 35 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: into these fights with each other and we're not realizing 36 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: a massive impact that that's actually having on our bodies, 37 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: our health, et cetera. So I'll let you get into 38 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: all that I wanted to kind of start. You talk 39 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: about that we all carry two powerful opposing drives, the 40 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: survival drive and the connection drive, and I thought that 41 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: might be a really good place to start. 42 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 3: So can you talk about that? 43 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 2: Absolutely? So it doesn't take much to imagine or to 44 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: recognize that we are animals at our core. We you know, biologically, 45 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 2: we're just animals like you know, the deer and the 46 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 2: dogs and the all of the other creatures. And as such, 47 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 2: we have two innate biological drives. One is the survival drive, 48 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 2: and that's the one that keeps us alive and safe. 49 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 2: It's what pumps our blood. It's also what keeps us 50 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: alert to threat in our environment. And so our brain 51 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: is continually and our body is continually doing what it 52 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 2: can and what it needs to to keep itself safe 53 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: and alive. This is the thing that has us focus 54 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: in these areas that are so tricky for us as 55 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: human beings. What is right versus wrong? Are you telling 56 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: me I'm bad versus good? Winning an argument, getting a 57 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 2: word in This is part of that survival drive that 58 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 2: I've got to save myself, whether that's a point or 59 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: whether that's my hind, I got to keep myself safe. 60 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 2: And some of that is about, you know, feeling safe 61 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 2: in a conversation. So that's one drive. The other is 62 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 2: the connection drive. Humans need each other. We rely on 63 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 2: each other for that survival. We need connection, We need 64 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 2: relationship in order to survive in the world. And so 65 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 2: you know babies, when you know infants. Anytime anybody's been 66 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 2: around an infant, infants look, they make eye contact, they 67 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: reach for the adults, they giggle. They are trying to 68 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: get that connection need met. We do that throughout our life. 69 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 2: So we have these two needs simultaneously, and they are 70 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 2: often in opposition. We want connection with others, and yet 71 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 2: others are you know what is the primary threat to 72 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: other human beings? It's other human beings. You know, you 73 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: are the person that can hurt men is the person 74 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: that can hurt me. The neighbor on the street, the immigrant, 75 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: the politician, all of these things. Those are the people 76 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: that can cause harm to me. And so we swing 77 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 2: between wanting, craving, needing that connection and that very connection 78 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 2: causing us to go our brain to automatically go into 79 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 2: the fight or flight that leads us into fighting and 80 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,679 Speaker 2: arguing and leaving, fleeing all of that stuff. 81 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because as I listen to you talk, 82 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: it's sort of bringing back some of our last conversation 83 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: in my head about relationships. And I know you mentioned 84 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: that you me and us and your talk, and there's 85 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 1: so much of that on a bigger scale. Too, So 86 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: can you kind of talk about because I think it's 87 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: easy for us to think about, Okay, in relationships, Yes, 88 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 1: when we get triggered, we react, and that's because our 89 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: survival need of some sort was threatened, right, But the 90 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: way back to each other is connection. So can you 91 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: talk through how that is laying out on the bigger 92 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: scale right now in the world, like where you're seeing 93 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: it happen. 94 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 2: Sure, and you mentioned you, me and us, and for 95 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: the listeners, that is the recognition that there are three 96 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 2: components in every relationship. There's you, there's me, and then 97 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 2: there's the connection between us. There's the relationship between us. 98 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 2: It's easy to sort of think about when you think 99 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 2: about your romantic partnership or even your work relationship that yeah, 100 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 2: like when our relationship is working, well, we collaborate, well, 101 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 2: we're creative, all that sort of stuff, But you don't 102 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 2: really think about it in terms of that neighbor that 103 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 2: won't you know, from the most petty of your neighbor 104 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 2: is slow to take their garbage bins in, or they 105 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 2: have a political flag that makes you crazy, or you 106 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 2: know whatever they yell at your dog or whatever it is. 107 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 2: You don't think about the fact that that neighbor has needs, 108 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: you have needs, and that the relationship between you has needs. 109 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 2: So from everybody, from that neighbor or your partner to 110 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 2: the stranger in the street, we are continually in relationship. 111 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 2: Maybe the relationships only thirty seconds long, or maybe it's 112 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 2: a lifetime. We have to be tending to all of 113 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 2: those things. And so you know, when we even when 114 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 2: we watch the news or listen to a podcast that 115 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: triggers us, we're in relationship to the topic. All of 116 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 2: that is a relationship, and we can get triggered by anything. 117 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: We're in relationship too, and we have to consider is 118 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 2: it what they're saying, is it my reaction? Is it 119 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 2: the interplay between these things that's causing the problem? And 120 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 2: where do I need to put my focus and my 121 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 2: energy to bring us back into healthy connection so that 122 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 2: we can move. 123 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: Forward, right, and so on the bigger scale out in 124 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: the world, I think you could easily connect that, I 125 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: mean that thing on a political scale. We're all obviously 126 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: that's very clear. And we're recording this in the week 127 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: where there's been a couple ice shootings, and so now 128 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 1: we're having all these protests, and when you're talking about 129 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 1: the you, MEI and us thinking that is what's playing out, 130 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: isn't it if everyone in their survival skills are survival 131 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: brain and each side thinks that they have it figured 132 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: out and they have it right, and we're not at 133 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: all looking at the US piece. 134 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 3: We're like yelling the here's. 135 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: Me me, me, me me piece. Yep, here's how I 136 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: need to survive. Here's what I need you to do, 137 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: have to survive. But there's no connection of us. So 138 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: what is the damage that that is causing. 139 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: Well, we're more and more isolated, We're more and more divided. 140 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 2: We are reinforcing this it's you versus me, as though 141 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: that's the only option. It's it's your perspective, it's my perspective, 142 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 2: and there is no middle ground. There is no capacity 143 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 2: to have a relationship past. One of us has to 144 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 2: be right and one of us has to be wrong. 145 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: And I don't mean to imply, because there are certainly 146 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: I have opinions about what's right what's wrong. Certainly there 147 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 2: are decisions being made on the national international stage that 148 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 2: are causing threat to real people in real time. So 149 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 2: I don't mean to imply and oversimplify this because it 150 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 2: is quite complex. But there is also your person with 151 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 2: your opinions, your person with your life experiences, with your needs, 152 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 2: all of that sort of stuff. As am I, and 153 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: we can see each other as human beings. Even if 154 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 2: I find your perspective disgusting, repulsive, horrifying, offensive, threatening to me, 155 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 2: I can still see you as a human being and 156 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 2: recognize that and sort of give you a nod of 157 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 2: respect that, Wow, I see how scared you are in 158 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 2: this moment, I see how passionate you. Whatever is the 159 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 2: adjective to describe it. And you can pick whichever political 160 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 2: figure you find most abhorrent, whether that's someone in the 161 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 2: current administration someone in the past administration. You can use 162 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 2: that as the opportunity to am I recognizing their humanity? 163 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 2: Am I seeing them as a human or am I 164 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 2: just making them into a caricature. And it's challenging because 165 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 2: I have big, big feelings and big big fears about 166 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: what's happening, and you know, quote unquote who's to blame. 167 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 2: It's challenging because I feel very strongly that you know, 168 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 2: some decisions are wrong, some decisions you know and are 169 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 2: causing harm and all of that. So again, I don't 170 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 2: mean to oversimplify it, but we're skipping over recognizing that 171 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 2: the other people are human. And I believe very strongly 172 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 2: that that is the cause of much of what is 173 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 2: going wrong right now in the US is we are 174 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 2: failing to see each other's humanity. And you can pick 175 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 2: whichever side you want to look at and say, are 176 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 2: they seeing my humanity? Am I seeing their humanity? Or 177 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 2: are we reducing them to their position or their actions 178 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 2: or all that stuff. 179 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, as you're talking, I'm thinking one of 180 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: the triggers for me with all of this political divisiveness 181 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: is not feeling understood right, not feeling like like when 182 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: I get really upset, it's because what I view that's 183 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: happening is very scary. And then what's so interesting is 184 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: if I read about anyone that voted another way or 185 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: the other side of the argument, even what they're scared 186 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: of is the thing that would make me feel more comfortable. 187 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: So I've really had to take a step back. And 188 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: as you said, I think everyone would say that's really 189 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: difficult right now because we all have pretty clear views 190 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: on things because we've had to because it's so loud 191 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: and in your face all the time. But when I 192 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,199 Speaker 1: really ask myself what's going on with me. It's very 193 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: similar to being in any sort of relationship dynamic, which 194 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: is I need the other person to see my side, 195 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: to feel understood, to feel heard, to feel safe. Is 196 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: what I have noticed myself doing. And that's really difficult 197 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: because the other side is doing the same thing. And 198 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: how are we ever gonna meet in the middle, because 199 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: the way to safety for each person is so complex 200 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: and different. 201 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 2: You absolutely speak my language and one hundred percent, And 202 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:07,959 Speaker 2: you can think of any argument you've had with a 203 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: romantic partner or a colleague where you're so sure that 204 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 2: you're right that you don't care about the other person's perspective, 205 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 2: and you're dismissive and even dehumanizing on a small, small 206 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 2: level of it doesn't matter to me, you know, like 207 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 2: I'm right, you're wrong, that's the end of it. And 208 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 2: we wait. We're waiting for the other person to realize 209 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 2: how stupid they're being, how wrong they are, to come forward, 210 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 2: and we're not willing. We get so like behind our 211 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 2: wall of rightness that we're not willing to meet in 212 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 2: the middle. And I've had couples that I work with 213 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 2: that are in stalemates for days, weeks, months, where they're 214 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 2: just not going to move until you come to me, 215 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 2: and they waste so much energy. The same thing has 216 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 2: just happened this week, and I've heard it from both sides. 217 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 2: The phrase I don't give a if about someone who's 218 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 2: placed a candle, about someone who's a doctor who's trying 219 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 2: to meet someone, about a politician who isn't you know, 220 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 2: isn't saying the right thing what we want to hear. 221 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 2: I'm hearing from both sides. I don't give an if 222 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 2: about what they're I'm being very self controlled and not 223 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 2: swearing because I know. 224 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 3: Go ahead, this podcast. 225 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 2: Okay, excellent. I don't give a fuck. I don't give 226 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 2: a fuck Like that is printed in the news right 227 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 2: now on both sides about the other people's perspective, and 228 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 2: that's the problem, not you know, I mean, obviously kicking 229 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: over a protester's candle, not respectful, not letting a doctor 230 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 2: go to a patient to check their pulse, really dangerous 231 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 2: and terrible. All of these things are problems. I'm not 232 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 2: saying they're not, but this moment of I don't give 233 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 2: a shit what your what your needs are, I don't 234 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 2: give a fuck what your perspective is that's the problem 235 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 2: that we're in of Like, I'm not even gonna take 236 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 2: the time your your voice is and value enough, your 237 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 2: humanity doesn't matter enough to me that I'm willing to listen. 238 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: And I want to get into some solutions of that, 239 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: But first I want to ask you about what that 240 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: is doing to us though, because I think we could 241 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: all listen to what you just said, no matter what 242 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: side you're on, and go, yeah, exactly, Like I have 243 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:21,959 Speaker 1: this perspective of all these things going on, but I 244 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: don't really want to understand the other side or like, 245 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: like truly, I think we've gotten so far from each 246 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: other that it is very difficult to understand that. Like 247 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: you're going, what, how do you think that? But both 248 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: sides are doing that, both sides are doing it. But 249 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: I think what points you make in the ted X 250 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: that are so important is that that isn't just happening 251 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: and it's not causing any damage to us personally, physically, mentally, 252 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: and emotionally. Like in fact, you say connection is not 253 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: a luxury, it's critical to our health. Disconnection is making 254 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: us sick. So can you speak to the science of 255 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: that little bit and help listeners understand the impact that 256 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: this has all happening on each of us. 257 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 2: Yep, you know, COVID was the thing that really brought 258 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 2: this to our awareness. So I think the isolation that 259 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 2: people were having we were less, you know than the 260 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 2: lockdowns and all that sort of stuff. And again we could, 261 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 2: you know, we're probably triggering people into their big, big 262 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 2: feelings about COVID and how it was handled in the 263 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 2: United States. But the lockdowns caused a lot of isolation 264 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 2: and the only contact people were having was virtual and 265 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,239 Speaker 2: it was causing health problems. We're going up, eating disorders, alcoholism, 266 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 2: all kinds of things were increasing, and so they started 267 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 2: looking at the cost of isolation and loneliness, such that 268 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: there was so much research done that the surch In 269 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: General of the United States did a study and the 270 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 2: impact of loneliness and named it a public health risk. 271 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 2: Loneliness costs our immune system, it costs our stress level, hypertension, 272 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: heart disease, dementia, depression, all of these things are increased 273 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 2: as a result of loneliness and isolation. Isolation sort of 274 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 2: contributing to loneliness the felt experience of being alone. And 275 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: as I think I talked about in our last conversation. 276 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 2: You can feel lonely in relationship. You can feel lonely 277 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 2: on your own. You know, it's not just being isolated, 278 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 2: it's also that your needs aren't being met in relationship. 279 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 2: We're less productive when we feel lonelier, isolated, when we 280 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 2: don't have that human need of being seen and recognized 281 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 2: and valued as a human being, having our humanity named. 282 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 2: It costs all of us, and it you know, the 283 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 2: sort of trippy thing about mirror neurons and neurobiology. When 284 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 2: you are lonely, it costs me when I'm causing you loneliness. 285 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 2: It costs me because I am receiving it and feeling 286 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 2: it when I'm in relationship to someone who experiences loneliness 287 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 2: in my in my connection. So you know, this sort 288 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 2: of false narrative that we can just keep ourselves in 289 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 2: our own groups and be okay. You know, if I 290 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 2: just surround myself by people who think like me is false, 291 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 2: because I go out in the world, or I ride 292 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: the bus, or I'm in the grocery store line with 293 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 2: someone who feels differently than me, and there is you 294 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 2: can feel the wall that goes up between someone who's 295 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 2: really different you know, maybe they're looking at a newspaper 296 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 2: and they're making grass comments about X or y political party, 297 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: and you're in that political party. You can feel the 298 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 2: armor go up between the two of you. You are 299 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 2: now isolated, and you're feeling disease and unsafety and all 300 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 2: that sort of stuff. And it costs all of us. 301 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 2: It costs the person making the comments because they are 302 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: separating themselves from another human being who's right there in 303 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 2: front of them, when they could be having a smile, 304 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 2: a nod, you know, an interaction, even though there are 305 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 2: two people who who won't spend you know, wouldn't spend 306 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 2: time together. I'm not suggesting that the far right Republicans 307 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: and the far left liberals should walk hand in hand 308 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 2: down the sunset and be best friends. You know, Oh, 309 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 2: Anthony and Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsberg were buddies that 310 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 2: went to the opera together. It's possible to be friends 311 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 2: with folks that you really disagree with. But I am 312 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 2: saying that we recognize each other's humanity, That your perspective, 313 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 2: your belief about something, your political stance comes from somewhere. 314 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 2: It comes from an emotional need, a physical need that 315 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 2: you have and that's valid. 316 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: You also talk about that our brains are actually clocking 317 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: that exact emotional disconnection, So that disagreeing or even the 318 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: words if you were standing in the grocery store line 319 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: the example you just gave, our brains cannot decipher between 320 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: that emotional threat and a physical threat, right, is that correct? 321 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 2: That is correct. So the brain, the part of the 322 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:57,239 Speaker 2: brain that is scanning, you know, that survival brain, is 323 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 2: scanning our environment constantly. And this is the of lots 324 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 2: of things, the negativity bias in the brain, which has 325 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 2: us hold on to negative interactions with ten times the 326 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 2: power of positive interactions. The brain is constantly scanning the 327 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 2: environment for threat, and as I named a little while ago, 328 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 2: the primary threat to human beings as other human beings. 329 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 2: So I'm scanning your face in a fight. If you 330 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 2: and I are in connection with each other and we 331 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 2: have a fight and I see anger, discuss all of 332 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 2: that sort of stuff cross your face. Now you're a 333 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 2: threat to me. Now you're of danger because you think 334 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: less of me. You might leave me, you might abandon me, 335 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 2: you might hurt me, you might say something harmful, and 336 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 2: our brain goes into connection mode. The amygdala, the part 337 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 2: of the brain that is so fast moving doesn't know 338 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:48,360 Speaker 2: the distinction between your mad face and a masked gunman 339 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 2: coming into the room. I mean, I am being a 340 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 2: little bit exaggerating because there are varying degrees in the brain, 341 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 2: but it really is not that sophisticated and knowing, Oh, 342 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 2: she's just mad at me, it's not the end of 343 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 2: the world. The brain reacts as though its system is 344 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 2: in as much threat as if there was a masked 345 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:07,360 Speaker 2: gunman that came into the room. 346 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 3: That is wild, isn't wild? 347 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: Yeah? So even let's stick with your grocery store example 348 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: for a second. So say you're in the grocery store 349 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: line that happens where one person is reading a magazine 350 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: starts mouthing off about their perspective or whatever. It happens 351 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: to be the opposite of yours. You leave the grocery store. 352 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: So that's the threat, right, the threat happened. You put 353 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: a wall up, you shut down, you leave the grocery store, 354 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: you go home, you get on social media. So there's 355 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: two things happening in social media. Obviously, I feel like 356 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: the amount of sensationalism of every side. I mean, you 357 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 1: can find an argument for any side of any situation 358 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: happening whatever you want it to be, you can find 359 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: the argument right and it makes it really difficult to 360 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: even know what reality is. 361 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 3: And then on the. 362 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 1: Flip side, there's the fake aspect of social media where 363 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: the pretty pictures are all being shown. So the two 364 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 1: different things. So what is happening to us when we 365 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: come out of a situation like the grocery store, go 366 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: home and get on social media, Like, what's the impact 367 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 1: of all of those pieces of it? 368 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I would even take you back when 369 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 2: you're walking out of that grocery store and you've got 370 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 2: that person's voice in your head and the shit they 371 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 2: were talking about. You know, your perspective, Your brain doesn't 372 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 2: just shut it off. It's going and you can bring 373 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 2: to mind any occasion where this has happened, or you 374 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 2: can bring to mind a fight you had with a 375 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 2: partner or a friend. You're replaying in your head and 376 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 2: you are getting madder and matter and matter or more 377 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 2: and more upset or more and more scared or all 378 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 2: that sort of stuff, and it's running in your head 379 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 2: when we have that distressful interaction that is upsetting to us. 380 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 2: Once it's over, it's not like it just ends, you know, 381 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 2: we continue to spin on it. So we spin on it, 382 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 2: and then we go home and we go to social 383 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 2: media or a podcast or you know, a show of 384 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:01,959 Speaker 2: some kind to distract ourselves or to you know, because 385 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 2: we're spinning on it. We want evidence that supports our perspective. 386 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 2: We're going to gather more evidence that that person is 387 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 2: the problem. I'm not the problem. They're wrong, I'm right, 388 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff, and as you're you're naming, 389 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 2: and you know, one of the things. There was another 390 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 2: talk at the ted Ex Harford, where I was lucky 391 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 2: enough to be a member, about astroturfing, which is about 392 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 2: the sort of like grassroots fake grassroots movements that happen, 393 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 2: which are built on misinformation and disinformation. And there is 394 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 2: so much intentionally misrepresenting of information that, like you're saying, 395 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 2: we can't trust the information that we're reading, but most 396 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: of us, many of us take it at face value 397 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 2: because I'm reading it on the internet. It must be 398 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 2: true or it aligns with it's in the news I've experienced. 399 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 3: But it is not even being real anymore. 400 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 2: For sure, for sure, all over the place, both again, 401 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 2: both sides. Yeah, and so we don't know what to trust, 402 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 2: but if it aligns with our perspective, we believe it, 403 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 2: and we use it, we stockpile it as evidence, and 404 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 2: then it just gets us more and more upset. I mean, 405 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 2: it's if people tune into you know, you get on 406 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 2: the internet looking for comfort quote unquote, do you actually 407 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 2: feel better as a result of being on the internet 408 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 2: and finding sources? Not? Usually, Usually you feel more upset, 409 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 2: You're more agitated, you're more aggrieved, you're more like ready 410 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 2: to go fight. That's not actually helpful to you, that's 411 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: not bringing you back in contact with your own humanity 412 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 2: or the things that actually calm you and make you 413 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: feel better about life or your safety. And you know, simultaneously, 414 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 2: if we're using beautiful images or social media influencers that 415 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 2: are making pretty funny videos, we feel, you know, comforted 416 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 2: in this way of being amused and like this relationship 417 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 2: between you know what, ever Taylor Swift and Travis Kelcey 418 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 2: and their engagement photos or whatever, we're feeling part of that, 419 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 2: Like we're being brought into their relationship by getting to 420 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 2: be part of their intimate moment of these you know, 421 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 2: wildly wildly staged photographs, but they're also very intimate and 422 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 2: you feel like a part of it. And you know 423 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 2: they said, I think they said, and my daughter is 424 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: a swifty and so she's like, you know, I'll just 425 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: use this as the excuse. Yeah, right, caroly I stay 426 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 2: up today with Taylor Swift because of her, you know, 427 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 2: enjoyment of Taylor Swift. But Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce, 428 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 2: I think said something like your English teacher and your 429 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,919 Speaker 2: pe teacher getting married, and so they used a very casual, 430 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 2: very familial way of describing that. So you feel like 431 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 2: wink wink, you're in on that, and you feel connected. 432 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 2: So you feel warm inside as though it's actual real connection. 433 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 2: But you don't have a connection to Travis and Taylor. 434 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 2: You don't have a you don't have a relationship with that, 435 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 2: not a real one that actually feeds you. It's a 436 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 2: relationship of sorts, but it's like, you know, subsisting on 437 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 2: Doritos and cupcakes. It's not nutritious in any way for 438 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 2: what your emotional needs are. So you feel connected, but 439 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 2: you're actually disconnected. And because that connection doesn't feed you 440 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 2: in a real way, we get addicted to, like, let 441 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 2: me find the next thing that will make me feel connected. 442 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 2: Let me keep looking, Let me keep looking, Let me 443 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: keep looking to get that serotonin dopamine hit. And we 444 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 2: just keep going and keep going and keep going. And 445 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 2: people are on social media for hours. Yeah, and you know, 446 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,919 Speaker 2: fall asleep to social media because they can't put it 447 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 2: down because they don't want to lose the rush of 448 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 2: feeling part of something when they're in fact not part 449 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 2: of something. 450 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 1: So one of the things that I find really interesting 451 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: about all of that is that I do do that, 452 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: like I will find myself when I get really scared 453 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 1: out in the world right now because of all the 454 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: things happening, because I don't know what to believe anymore 455 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 1: because we're getting so many narratives all the time. Is 456 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: that you do want to find the thing that goes okay, no, no, no, 457 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: what you thought was right, this is happening. And I'll 458 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 1: even call some friends of mine and be like, wait, 459 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: this just happened. I'm not crazy, right, which is a 460 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: similar dynamic to like my past relationships with narcissists. You know, 461 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: it's that gas lighting thing, so it's almost like that's 462 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: happening on a big scale. But then you mentioned this, 463 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: like Taylor Swift Travis Kelcey situation. So the other thing 464 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: that happens to me is I'll go looking for the 465 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: information I need to calm myself down, and then it's 466 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 1: like another whole universe is happening where that isn't even 467 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: happening in the world of Like I don't know, does 468 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: that make sense. It's like then all of a sudden, 469 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: there's all these other people posting, and I'm like, wait, 470 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: are y'all not seeing what's happening? And then like it 471 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,959 Speaker 1: is messing with my brain to such a high level 472 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: that at most of the time now I just have 473 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: to put it all down and go I don't even 474 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: know what to believe about this. I'm just gonna sit 475 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: with myself and have to get quiet and trust the 476 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 1: things that I know in my body and also know 477 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,479 Speaker 1: that like I kind of just got to turn this 478 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: over to the universe because like there's not that much 479 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: I can participate in at this moment because I don't 480 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:28,959 Speaker 1: even know what reality is. My brain is so scrambled 481 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: when I get on social media because there's the two 482 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: different sides basically fighting and seeming like they're saying the truth, 483 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: and then there's the other people that are like Ladi, Daddy, 484 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: dad da da, Like we're Travis and Taylor are getting 485 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: married and that's all they're caring about. 486 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 3: And I'm like, wait, what what is happening? 487 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 2: Right? 488 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 3: How do we even hear about this right now? 489 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 2: Yeah? The same you know, how are we talking about 490 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 2: wedding dresses when there are people being killed? How are 491 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 2: we you know, like it just it's and yet again, 492 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 2: you know, with curiosity, people are doing the best they 493 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 2: can to cope, and we all like to. For me, 494 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 2: it's my social media kryptonite is baby goats and baby cows. 495 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 2: That's what I That's when I go and let's get 496 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 2: comfort and that's my comfort. Or toddler's swearing, I also am. 497 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 2: I'm a sucker for a toddler swearing. I think it's hilarious. Anyway, 498 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 2: we all have the thing that we do to make 499 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 2: ourselves feel better about the state of the world, to 500 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 2: either completely distract or to reassure ourselves, well, there's still 501 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 2: good in the world. That's the other thing that people 502 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 2: are looking for. Is there still good in the world, 503 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,479 Speaker 2: and yet none of us feel very trusting of what's happening. 504 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 3: So what is the solution? 505 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: Because We've said a lot about what the problem is here, 506 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: and I think the comparison to a long term relationship 507 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: is very high. So I see why this is such 508 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 1: a part of your work now. But what can we 509 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 1: do if we need connection yet we're scared to go 510 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: out in the world, or we're scared to talk to anyone, 511 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: How are we ever going to find that true connection? 512 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 2: We have to remember that this is in play in 513 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 2: our biology all the time, that survival brain and connection brain. 514 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 2: We have to do the work, and this is one 515 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 2: of the tricky pieces to remember that we don't actually 516 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 2: get anywhere by making the other person the problem. We 517 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 2: don't grow any closer, we don't build any healthy communication. 518 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 2: It's easier to look over there at the other people 519 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 2: and say you're the problem for all my distrust, disease, 520 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 2: you know, all that sort of stuff, but it doesn't 521 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 2: actually bring us closer to connections. So that's that's a 522 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 2: tricky piece. It's hard to do, but that allows us 523 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 2: to take responsibility for the things we can control. I 524 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 2: can't control you at all. No one can control another 525 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 2: human being. And how many couples out there raise your 526 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 2: imaginary hands out there and listening, world tried to get 527 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 2: your partner to be better at X or y, doing 528 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: the dishes, picking up the socks, whatever it is, putting 529 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 2: the toilet paper right. We try to change another person, 530 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 2: but we fail. We can't do it. We can only 531 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 2: control ourselves. So the only source of possibility here is 532 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,959 Speaker 2: for each of us to do what we can. And 533 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 2: this is going to sound woo woo. Is all get 534 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 2: out to put more good, more love, more compassion, more 535 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 2: curiosity into the world because that is what the world needs, 536 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 2: and it's what I need. If I have that interaction 537 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 2: with that person, in my mind, I've made him an 538 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 2: elderly gentleman. I don't know why. I don't know why. 539 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 2: But anyway, if I have this interaction with this person 540 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 2: in the grocery store, the next time this happens to you, 541 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 2: an interaction with a person that cuts you off in traffic, 542 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 2: or is reading the wrong paper, or has the wrong 543 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 2: hat on, or whatever it is, play a little game 544 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 2: with yourself. Scowl at them. See how it feels in 545 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 2: your body versus smiling at them and wishing them well. 546 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 3: It's so We're true. 547 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 2: It feels better in our bodies to smile at someone, 548 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 2: even if while you smile, you think they're a complete moron, 549 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 2: still smiling and wishing them well. I mean, if you're 550 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 2: patronized zing while you smile at them, it doesn't feel 551 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 2: quite as good as if you genuinely I wish you well, 552 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 2: I wish you even. I wish you wisdom to know 553 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 2: better than the position you have. I wish you real news. 554 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 2: I wish you real, trustworthy information so that you could 555 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 2: learn a different path out of the position that you're 556 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 2: in that's better than you fucking moron or criminal or 557 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 2: sleepy whatever or you know, whatever is the particular way 558 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 2: you dehumanize your enemy. And I say you to you, 559 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 2: I say me to me, because we all do it. 560 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 2: I disregard people like you know, I'm talking about this 561 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 2: as though it's easy, and then like I'm I'm you know, 562 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 2: the Buddha under the tree, and I've got it all 563 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 2: figured out. It is a practice. I have to do 564 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 2: it because you know, when I think of someone who 565 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 2: has abused their power and hurts someone in the process, 566 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 2: I dismiss their humanity like you must just be a 567 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 2: bad person for abusing your power and hurting someone. And 568 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 2: insert whatever person of power that you you know fill 569 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 2: in the blank for what sends your what sends your 570 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 2: nervous system going. It's a practice for me as well. 571 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 2: I have to do it. But it doesn't feel good 572 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 2: to be imagining these people as monsters, not humans, but monsters. 573 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 2: It doesn't actually help my nervous system. It doesn't help 574 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 2: my life. It doesn't help the fear that I carry 575 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 2: every day about the state of our country. It doesn't 576 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 2: actually help me to be keeping that narrative going of 577 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 2: you're a monster and you're the cause of all our problems. 578 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 2: I'm a citizen too, I'm an engager in the democracy. 579 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 2: I have a job to do to bring more curiosity 580 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 2: and kindness and compassion and love to the country as 581 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 2: they do. 582 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that I really actually like that 583 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: as a starting point, because the idea of being able 584 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: to have a conversation like you mentioned to Ruth Bader 585 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: Ginsburg and I can't remember who else. 586 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 2: Back in the day. 587 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: Oh yes, I mean they had completely opposing views, right, 588 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: but we're able to embrace a friendship, which seems like 589 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,239 Speaker 1: it was a lot easier in the past. I know, 590 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: I typically wasn't talking even about politics with my friends. 591 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: I would call myself not political back in the day, 592 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,719 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, I think all of us 593 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: are like, no, we're political because you have to be. 594 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: You have to have an opinion nowadays. And that's good 595 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: for some things, but it's also like it's really impossible 596 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: almost to have a conversation with someone that doesn't have 597 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: the same views as you because we're so far So 598 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: maybe the way right now isn't to talk about shit yet, 599 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: it's to actually just say, hey, I'm going to try 600 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: to start looking at you as a human and kind 601 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: of like the only thing that's worked for me with 602 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: that is literally looking at the safety piece of it. 603 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: And I was so glad to hear you talking about 604 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: the survival brain. But for whatever reason, people who vote 605 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: differently than me or have different opinions about this stuff, 606 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: I'm like, for whatever reason, their security is based on 607 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: something different than mine. And we're all different humans, right, 608 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: So of course it is. We've all had different life experiences, 609 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: we all have different values and priorities, so of course 610 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: we're gonna have different views. But to stop labeling the 611 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: other side as terrible names and like just the enemy 612 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: and all of that, like just sending positive energy. I 613 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: really feel like that might be the first step in 614 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: some significant changes, because right now we just look at 615 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: the other side as monsters on both. 616 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 2: Sides absolutely well, And I know the challenge to your listeners, 617 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 2: to the people listening to us, is if they're having 618 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 2: a negative response to this, like if they think you're naive, 619 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 2: you don't really take politics seriously, you don't really understand 620 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 2: the gravity of the situation in Israel and Palestine from anything, 621 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 2: like you're too privileged to even talk about you moron 622 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 2: that you think it's so simplistic. There's the opportunity to 623 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 2: pause your own body as you're listening to this and go, 624 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,439 Speaker 2: is there another way for me to hear this such 625 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 2: that I don't make Carolyn or Kelly the idiot? And 626 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 2: I just go, Wow, interesting that that's what they think. 627 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 2: I wonder how they came to think that. Can you 628 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 2: practice it at any moment in any conversation, to pause 629 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 2: and to be curious about what you're hearing and why 630 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 2: that's causing the reaction that it is. The reaction may 631 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 2: be entirely valid, it may be entirely maybe entirely right, 632 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 2: that the other person you're talking to or looking at 633 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 2: that are engaging with is threatening you or threatening others, 634 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,399 Speaker 2: and they are doing the wrong thing. But there's still 635 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 2: a human being and there's still an opportunity for you 636 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 2: to feel better and for you to contribute something other 637 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 2: than hate and divisiveness. 638 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the way that I was saying all of 639 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,439 Speaker 1: that just for the listener, I'm not at all trying 640 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: to downplay things. I literally have had to get to 641 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 1: this place in my own brain to be able to 642 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: function in this world right now. I could literally not 643 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 1: get out of bed every day if I let myself 644 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 1: take on the energy and the fear like it's there's 645 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,800 Speaker 1: so there's so much that we can grip to fear wise, 646 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: and for me, that's crippling, and I have to be 647 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: able to function like the world is still going on, 648 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: you know, life as we know it is still passing 649 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 1: us by, and so to be able to actively participate 650 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: in my own life, these are the things that I'm 651 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,800 Speaker 1: thinking of and asking myself because what we've been doing 652 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: with this fighting, in this desperate need to be heard 653 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: and say our side and fight our side, it ain't working. 654 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 1: It's just go look at social media this week, and 655 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: it's not working. It's only getting work feels like a 656 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: pressure cooker, and I'm just like, I want to participate 657 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: in a different way. So how do I do that? 658 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: Which is exactly why we're having this conversation. Yeah, yeah, Well, 659 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: if you guys want to go watch Carolyn's Ted talk 660 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: and learn more about this topic and what loneliness, like 661 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,399 Speaker 1: almost the epidemic, is doing to our brains, I will 662 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,320 Speaker 1: attach that in the description of this podcast. 663 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,439 Speaker 3: Also, your book Fired Up could be applied to any 664 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 3: of the things that we've talked. 665 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 2: About hundred percent. Like that's the dirty little Secret. Yeah, 666 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,919 Speaker 2: I mean it's written for couples, but the dirty little 667 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 2: secret that I wrote it to try and heal the 668 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 2: division in the world. You know that, Like you read 669 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 2: it and it applies to all your relationships. I mean 670 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 2: I've had friends that their relationships are solid and stable 671 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 2: and they read it out of loyal tuned me and 672 00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 2: they're like, I took what you wrote and I applied 673 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 2: it at my office. I'm like, exactly, it's relationship skills 674 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 2: or relationship skills regardless of the context of the relations. 675 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 3: That's a sneaky little thing. I love that. 676 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: And I know you mentioned when we first got on 677 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: the podcast that you're doing a retreat in Italy for 678 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 1: a couple of years, fee a lot of people might 679 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: want to know about because. 680 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 3: We all are in Italy right to come to Italy. 681 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I am a retreat later. My favorite thing 682 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 2: professionally is to take people on retreat, to have people 683 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,919 Speaker 2: in a contained place and take them. It takes us 684 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 2: two deeper places. So you know, I took that and went, 685 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,839 Speaker 2: you know, to eleven. I took it to eleven and 686 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 2: am doing week long retreats in Tuscany. So I've rented 687 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 2: a fourteenth century villa with a private chef, and it's 688 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 2: got pools and olive groves around us. And for a week, 689 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 2: we're in this beautiful place and we go between these 690 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 2: opportunities to deepen your relationship with going to Florence and 691 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 2: going to museums, going to wineries, going to an Italian 692 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,240 Speaker 2: spa where no one speaks English except us, and eating 693 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 2: these extraordinary meals and just being in the most beautiful place. 694 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 2: It's a transformative experience. 695 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 3: For calls us a blast that sounds like a dream. 696 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 3: It is, it really is. So if you're feeling, if you're. 697 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: Listening to the podcast being like, yes, I'm so bogged down. 698 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: Maybe go on this retreat. 699 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:25,439 Speaker 3: It gets your. 700 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,320 Speaker 1: Partner to go on the retreat. Try to find some 701 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: joy out there in the world. Where can people find 702 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: that if they are interested in signing up or getting 703 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 1: more information. 704 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 2: That is all on my website, which is Secure Connections Retreats, 705 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 2: And they can find me through Instagram. It's all on 706 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 2: my Instagram bio link in bio as they say, so 707 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,399 Speaker 2: they can find me anywhere and googling Carolyn Sharp It'll 708 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 2: all come up okay for them. 709 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: Okay, Well again, all of that will be in the 710 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: description of this podcast for you guys. Carolyn, Thank you 711 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,399 Speaker 1: so much for being here and for spreading this idea. 712 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: I love having this conversation. I'm hoping here's to twenty 713 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: twenty six, hoping sing it kinder. 714 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, we got to go in that direction because 715 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 2: the direction we're heading right now is it ain't working. 716 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:11,959 Speaker 3: No agreed, no greed. 717 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: All right, Well, thank you so much for being here, 718 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: and thank you guys so much for listening.