WEBVTT - Will we ever Cure Blindness? 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.040 Guess what will? What's that mango? So I was organizing 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:06.640 my computer and my bookmarks folder last week and I 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:10.000 found this old story I had bookmarked forever ago. It 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:12.959 was about this guy named Josh Silver who created these 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:16.400 self adjusted glasses. Have you heard about these? I do 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:18.000 remember this from a while back. I mean, I'm a 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.320 little foggy on it. I remember they came with these 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:23.800 little syringes to set them right. Yeah, that's right, and 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:27.520 they are amazing. So basically Silver figured out that if 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:29.880 you put a little bit of silicon oil in between 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:32.920 two pieces of round glass, you can make these adjustable 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:35.680 glasses for people with poor vision. And you don't even 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:38.479 need an optometrist like in the newest versions. I I 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:40.639 think you can actually just adjust a dial with your 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:43.320 hands until it squirts in the right amount of oils 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:45.720 so you can see clearly. And then you just said it. 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.760 And the things only cost like twenty dollars a piece. Yeah, 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:51.200 and and so they're actually reusable, so you can adjust 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:53.960 them as your vision changes. And the whole idea was 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:57.040 to help people in developing nations. But apparently the frames 0:00:57.040 --> 0:00:59.640 do have one downside, and that's that the frames have 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:02.160 to be circular. Well, I mean that's not terrible. Just 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:05.400 think John Lennon or Gandhi even I mean some big names, 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.200 that's right. And I've actually seen some competing brands online 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:11.200 now that use different shapes. But it's all pretty amazing. 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:13.319 And it got me thinking. If we have these super 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:16.320 smart and super cheap solutions for people with poor vision, 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:18.679 how far are we from giving sight to people with 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:21.960 no vision? And that's our big question today. Will we 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:25.399 ever cure blindness? Can stem cells and gene therapy help? 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:27.880 And why should humans let a doctor stick a bit 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:52.240 of algae into their eye sockets? Let's dive in. Hey 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:54.920 their podcast listeners, Welcome to Part Time Genius on Will 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:57.160 Pearson And as always I'm joined by my good friend 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.320 main guest Shot Ticketer and on the other side of 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:03.160 the soundproof glass wearing a blindfold as he concentrates on 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.120 the sound. He's such an artistic genius, that's our Palin 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:09.799 producer Tristan McNeil. I guess he does that when he's 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:12.240 focusing now, yeah, I think it's something he picked up 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:14.440 while he was watching, you know, one of his favorite movies, 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:17.880 which was The Third Karate Kick. The most important in 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:21.119 it really is a pretty important one. But but that's 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:24.880 Tristan anyway. You know, while Tristan can restore his site 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:28.600 anytime he pleases, there are millions of people with actual 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.639 visual impairments who don't have that option. And in fact, 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:34.560 according to that GEO, roughly one in every two hundred 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:38.600 people on Earth can't see. That's about thirty nine million people. 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:41.560 In addition, there are another two hundred and forty six 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:45.440 million people with conditions that moderately or severely limit their vision. 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.360 So despite the fact that humans have spent thousands of 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:52.280 years searching for ways to remedy blindness, all that collective 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:56.760 effort hasn't been enough yet. But we're actually getting much closer. 0:02:57.080 --> 0:02:59.280 So for today's episode, we're shining a light on the 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:02.480 newest sign and trying to determine will we find a 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:06.239 cure for blindness. So you know what's bonkers is I 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:09.600 was looking up cures for blindness and the craziest story 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:13.320 I found was about this guy from Foulmth, Maine. I 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:15.320 guess he was a trucker from the area and he'd 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:17.960 been in this serious accident on this icy bridge and 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:20.800 he lost his vision as a result. So his wife 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.560 had this really sweet story of I guess leading him 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.280 around the house and being his eyes for him and 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:29.040 and giving them all these mnemonic devices of like how 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:31.160 many stairs to go down then up so he could 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:33.400 get out of the house. And she was doing this 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:35.560 for years, like eight years or nine years or something. 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:38.080 And then one day, during a storm, he went out 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:40.800 to get one of his pet chickens and as he 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.840 was out there, he was struck with lightning and he 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:47.480 was completely stunned, but he went in after he took 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:49.960 a nap, and when he woke up he could actually 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:54.120 see again, no way from the lightning strike. Yeah, it's unbelievable, 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:56.280 and I he was on the news everywhere, from like 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:58.960 local news to the Washington Post to stations in Japan, 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:01.600 and like no one could figure out why it jarred 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.240 his brain into reconnecting his vision. I mean, it's just 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:07.880 such a crazy and amazing story. But you know, but 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:09.920 back to what you're saying, I'm actually glad that you 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:12.400 mentioned upfront that there's so much variation on the term 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.520 blind because thing of blindness as a complete lack of 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:20.560 functional vision and only that is actually an oversimplification. So 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:22.880 I didn't realize this until we started digging into the research. 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:24.920 But you know how someone with good vision is said 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:29.159 to have vision, Well, someone who's legally blind is defined 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.000 as having equal to or worse than, twenty two hundred 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:34.760 and their strongest die. And you might be wondering what 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:37.359 that means. If you're you can actually see an object 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.240 about two hundred feet away, but with twenty two hundred 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:43.520 you can see no further than twenty feet, which means 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:46.000 even though they're leally blind, they can still see and 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:49.440 with the aid of prescription glasses or contacts, you might 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:51.440 actually be able to see pretty clearly. Yeah, I mean, 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:54.839 twenty feet is not exactly just a short distance, and 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:57.480 I guess it does help us. Remember, just like with sidedness, 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:01.160 there's this spectrum for blindness, so some sided people see 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:04.520 better than others, and some blind people see worse than others. 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:07.039 And so I guess that nuance in all of that 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:10.479 is is easy to lose track of. Sometimes that's definitely true, 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:12.800 although I did read that people who developed even a 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:16.640 minor visual impairment like near sightedness actually have a higher 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.640 risk of developing a more serious eye condition down the line, 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:21.960 which is kind of scary to think about when you 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.520 consider that something like the current US population is actually 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:28.320 near sighted. Well, and the stats on that are getting, 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:30.400 you know, maybe even scarier than that. There was a 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.440 two thousand and sixteen study from the journal Ophthalmology, and 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:35.120 it was talking about the fact that the number of 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:39.120 people with myopia or near sightedness that's only expected to 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:42.560 grow in the coming years, and in fact, by twenty fifty, 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:46.320 half of the world's population will be near sighted. So 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:49.680 why is that, like, what's making bad vision so rampant? Well, 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:51.840 I think the guess that most people would have on 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:54.119 this is pretty accurate. You know, if you think about 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:57.880 the amount of time we spend indoors staring at our screens, 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:00.280 and so the result is that more people have eyes 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:03.120 that work well when looking at things up close, but 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:06.840 not so much when faced with far away objects. Yeah, 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:08.799 it's kind of baffling that we do this to ourselves. 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:11.000 I mean, I'm saying this as I'm taking selfie of 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:13.960 myself and also checking the weather good stuff. I don't 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:16.240 know which you do more, take selfies or check the weather. 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:20.240 But it's not stop. So, of course, the phones and 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:22.400 the tiny screens is only part of the story. There's 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:25.680 some visual impairments are obviously there from birth. You've got 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:28.520 others that developed later in life, and some like our 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:31.640 truck driver friend or the result of trauma. Yeah, you know, 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:33.679 and then they're the types of blindness that are brought 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:36.600 on by disease. And you know, all of that variation 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.479 means there's never going to be a universal cure for 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.320 vision laws. I mean, there's a whole host of things 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:44.200 that can cause and and that means we'll need a 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:46.839 wide range of treatments to cover all of our bases 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:49.760 on this. Well, let's talk about some of the most 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:52.880 promising strategies, because there are three major ones at the moment. 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:57.520 We've got bionic implants, stem cell research, and there's gene therapy. 0:06:57.640 --> 0:06:59.719 And the first of these has been in play the longest, 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:01.880 with different styles of bionic eyes that are popped up 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:04.039 all over the world for a while now here in 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:06.040 the States. The first to be approved by the FDA 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:08.880 was the Argus Too. This is a system that pairs 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.400 electrodes and planet in the redina with a video camera 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.440 attached to a pair of fancy classes. Well, and you 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:16.800 should talk about the kind of blindness that helps with it, 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:20.600 because if I remember, it's pretty specific right, Yeah, it's 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:22.800 so it's aimed at people who suffer from a rare 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:27.320 hereditary disease called Rednitis pigmentosa, and that causes cells in 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:30.280 the red knet to decreate over time, and they're between 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:34.160 one and two thousand people affected by it in the US. Supposedly, 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:37.080 the condition feels like looking down a tunnel that's gradually 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:41.160 gradually narrowing until it finally disappears. And what the CEO 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:42.960 of Argus claims is that the company is trying to 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:46.000 use the device to almost reopen that window that's closed 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:49.160 on them. I mean that sounds amazing. But these implants 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.000 have obviously been in development for a while now, so 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:55.800 so how advanced is the Argus too. The thing is, 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:59.160 there's actually more cutting edge technology out there. The Argus 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:01.560 is just the last one the FDA is signed off on. 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:03.840 But if you look at what's emerging from labs, you 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:06.160 can actually find devices that are even more effective at 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:09.200 helping people see. So for example, there's this one being 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:12.280 tested in the UK where a microchip is implanted in 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:15.560 the eye to stimulate the optic nerve. The chip basically 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.360 feeds visual information to the nerve, which in turn sends 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:20.280 it up to the brain. I mean, a lot of 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:23.720 this stuff sounds kind of like science fiction while also 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:27.360 being totally believable at the same time. But I'm curious, 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:29.520 I mean, how close to full sightedness to these kinds 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:33.439 of devices actually get somebody. So that's one interesting point. 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:36.800 Both the artus too and the microchip I mentioned they 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:39.800 only deliver images in black and white, and since the 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.960 argus only uses about sixty electrodes to stimulate the rediness neurons, 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:47.480 the resolution isn't actually that good yet. So these implants 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:51.000 can help patients distinguish between light and dark, which I 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:54.000 guess means they can read large printed letters or even 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.400 recognize where objects are located. But you can't exactly drive 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.880 a car or you know, pilot a plane yet. And again, 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.480 these devices are only effective for treating a rare kind 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:05.880 of visual impairment in the first place. Yeah, and we 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:07.880 should stop for a second to acknowledge the fact that, 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:10.520 you know, the leading cause of blindness around the world 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:13.120 is is something we've actually developed a cure for, and 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:16.079 and those are cataracts, And so, just as a refresher 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:19.360 on this, cataracts are basically this build up of protein 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:22.160 on the lens of the eye and a clouding that 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:24.920 results in you know, in faded colors and blurry vision, 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:28.520 and it gets worse over time. So cataracts tend to 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:31.480 occur as people get older, but they can also result 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:34.960 from congenital problems or maybe even physical trauma from time 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:38.320 to time if it happens directly to the eye. And 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:41.160 like I said, cataracts typically can be treated through surgeries 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:44.400 that they just replaced the clouded lens with artificial ones. 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:48.000 So every time I think about cataracts surgeries, I always 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:50.560 think about this origin story we had from mental floss 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:53.720 And the only reason I remember is that I'm actually 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:56.560 terrified at touching my eyes or anything even being close 0:09:56.559 --> 0:10:00.120 to my eye. But the story was that, I think 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:02.400 it was like an ancient Greece or Rome, there was 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.440 this goat hurder who had a blind goat and he 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:08.160 accidentally saw it walk into a thorn bush and when 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.400 it scratched its eyes, suddenly you could start seeing again. Yeah, 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:13.320 I mean, I feel like it's definitely a story that 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:16.559 gets mentioned as as that inspiration for cataract surgeries. And 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:18.199 I don't know if it's true or not, but it's 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.680 definitely an interesting story, and the procedures have been around 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.600 for a long time. I mean, you know Celsus, the 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:29.080 old Roman physician, he actually described early cataract surgeries. And 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.000 you know, this guy was alive in like twenty five BC, 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:35.240 so this is a long, long time ago. And you know, 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.880 obviously the surgery has evolved over the centuries. But even 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:42.000 though twenty million people have done it every year, there 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:44.960 are still huge swaths of the world population who don't 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:47.400 have access to treatment, or maybe that don't even know 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:50.360 that it exists. Yeah, which is really sad. And in 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:52.640 this case, I guess the challenge isn't so much developing 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:54.480 a cure as it is finding a better way to 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:56.880 roll out the cure did those who need it. But 0:10:57.360 --> 0:10:59.439 you know, for the millions of people who do get 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:01.960 the surgery, do they return to full vision or is 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:04.319 it more of a mixed bag? Well, it varies. I mean, 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.040 for some it's a complete fix, and others still need 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:10.120 glasses or contacts in order to get the full effect. 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.199 But actually there's a new surgical technique being tested that 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:16.040 would do away with the mixed results while also making 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:18.680 the whole procedure a lot less of invasive than it is. Now, 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.400 So how does that work? Well, strangely enough, it's by 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:26.160 using the body's own stem cells to regrow a functional 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:30.120 lens for the eye. How weird is that? So? I 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:32.360 don't even know if I should be embarrassed to admit this, 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:34.640 But before this episode, I didn't know that I had 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:37.080 stem cells. Well, I don't think a lot of people do. 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:39.800 And and actually every tissue in the body contains stem 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:43.360 cells and they can replace any damage cells within that tissue. 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:45.480 And you know the problem is that stem cells tend 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:48.320 to diminish as we age, and that's why this new 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.240 approach is mainly dealt with cataracts that are in children. 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:53.520 You know, they just have more stem cells to work 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:57.400 with than adults do. That's crazy that kids can get cataracts. 0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:59.400 Like I thought it was just for goats and old people. 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:04.280 But you're learning so much today. And so if this 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:06.720 new technique uses stem cells that are already in place, 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:09.640 why is it a surgery. Well, the surgery is to 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:12.840 remove the non functional ie lens while leaving the functional 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:16.800 stem cells you know, within that lens intact in that situation. 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:19.560 But it's kind of like setting aside seeds from a 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:22.240 piece of fruit that's gone bad, Like you can't salvage 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:24.560 the flesh that's turned, but you know, the seeds can 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:28.520 still be used to produce a new fruit. And that's 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:30.560 kind of a weird analogy. I've been working on it 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:32.560 for days. I was trying to think of a good analogy, 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:36.160 but I felt good about that one. So, um, I 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:38.679 guess you've got this I fruit from these stem cell 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:41.200 seeds and and that actually ends up being useful. Yeah, 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:43.640 see it worked. This was a top shelf analogy. This 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:45.720 is this is pretty good. Well, actually, let me read 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:48.480 you this breakdown from an article I found in Popsie. 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:51.960 It says, quote, the researchers tried their procedure on twelve 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.040 human babies under two years old. They found that in 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.520 these children, the lenses were functional and regenerated faster than 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:01.280 the twenty five children who received even the standard treatment 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:04.520 for cataracts. The new technique also reduced the chance of 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:08.320 complications and increase the clarity of the visual field by 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:12.640 twenty times. Actually, looking at this, like, the only downside 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:15.200 is that older patients with cataracts would have a tougher 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:18.680 time regenerating lenses because you know, their lack of stem cells, 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.520 but this procedure could help them, it would just take 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.880 longer for the new lens to form. Well, I mean, 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.920 it's still an amazing breakthrough either way, And for elderly 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.800 patients there's always the option of stem cell transplants from 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:33.600 a different person's body, like the sixth year old from 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:35.880 Japan who was able to stave off blindness with little 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:39.040 help from his friend, where his friends stem cells rather well, 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:41.040 I definitely want to hear about this, and we should 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:43.360 probably talk about gene therapy while we're at it. But 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:58.800 before we dig in, let's take a quick break. You're 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:00.959 listening to part time genius. We're talking about the most 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:05.480 promising efforts to cure blindness. All right, mangoes. So, historically 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:09.079 stem cell transplantation has been an ethically touchy subject for 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:11.840 you know a lot of people. So doing your research 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:14.560 this week, did did you find anything that might ease 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:17.640 those concerns? And if not, what's the best way to 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:19.960 reach you for anybody that wants to send you, you know, 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:24.840 maybe an angry note or email. Well, first off, I 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:28.080 suggest writing your senator, not your local podcast host. But 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.720 uh yeah, we we've definitely figured out how to utilize 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:34.560 stem cells in ways that don't carry that ethical stigma 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:38.520 that I guess embryonic stem cell research does. So, as 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.360 we were teasing before the break, in March of two seventeen, 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:44.040 a Japanese men in his sixties became the first person 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:47.120 to receive a stem cell transplant from another person in 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:50.480 order to keep from going blind. So who was that donor? 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:52.400 Because you know, I'm thinking about this if if older 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:55.440 people don't have many stem cells left to donate, I mean, 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:58.080 I think you said this was ethically safe. So I 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:00.680 assume these weren't from a kid, right, So this is 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:04.080 amazing thing. The donated cells came from a living adult. 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:06.760 They just weren't stem cells when they were removed from 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:09.800 the donor. Al Right, So how does that work? Exactly? 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.440 Like did they get the mature cells to revert back 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:17.680 into stem cells? Exactly? They Benjamin button them. So scientists 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.920 basically took some mature cells and it was skin cells 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:23.640 in this case, and then they reprogrammed them back into 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:27.440 this embryonic state and from there the cells were manipulated 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:29.920 until they became a type of redinal cell that's useful 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:33.040 for slowing down map of the degeneration. All right, So 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.800 this surgery last year. What was this the first time 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:39.120 reprogrammed cells like this have been used to treat blindness? No, 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:41.760 so that's actually the crazy part. This is the first 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:45.680 time using reprogrammed cells taken from someone else's body. In 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.920 two thousand fourteen, they've done this before. A Japanese woman 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.800 received retinal cells that have been reprogrammed from a sample 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:55.000 of her own skin cells and the procedure worked. But 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:58.720 there's actually a higher risk of genetic abnormality when using 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:01.600 your own skin cells. So the success of last year's 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:05.000 transplant was this giant leap towards making stem cell transplants 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:08.560 both safer and easier to perform. Yeah, and it actually 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:10.840 reminds me of something else from nat GEO, which which 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:14.560 mentioned that neuroscientists really appreciate studies on the eye because, 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.120 as one of them said, quote, it's the only place 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:21.960 you see the brain without drilling a hole. So obviously 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.080 I see the advantage of not having to drill holes 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:27.120 in people's heads. But how exactly do we see the 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:29.800 brain through the eye. Well, the ideas that the retina 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:33.000 is basically a bundle of neurons connected to the brain 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:35.840 via the optic nerve so it sort of makes the 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:39.240 whole eye seem like, as one neuroscientist put it, an 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:44.000 out pouching of the brain. I don't think I've ever 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:46.560 heard the word out pouching before. I just wanted to 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:48.920 use the word out pouching, So I kind of crafted 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:51.480 all of my notes around being able to say that 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:55.000 because it's super useful and scrabble, but but it actually 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.360 is really fascinating it. The whole idea is that because 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:01.320 of this connection between the I and the brain, there's 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:03.200 a good chance that treatments that are effective in the 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.160 eye might also have applications in the brain or maybe 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:09.119 even the spinal cord. So, as David Dobbs puts it 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:12.840 for nat GEO quote, experimental strategies now focused on the 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:16.400 eye may drive future treatments for the whole human organism. 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.840 Gene therapy offers the promise of fixing faulty genes that 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:22.920 cause illnesses of all kinds. So it goes on to 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:25.160 talk about some examples here he says, you know, stem 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:28.679 cells off for the promise of replacing entire tissue structures. 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.879 Bionic implants may replace failing organs, the eyes becoming a 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:35.280 window not just to the soul, but also to the 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:39.480 possibilities and limits, of course of therapeutic approaches on which 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:42.960 medicine is betting its future. I mean, it's super cool 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:45.320 to think that the research of curing blindness is kind 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:47.720 of leading the way in all these new fields. Yeah, 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:51.240 it is. And uh, you mentioned gene therapy being used 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:55.120 to fix disease causing illnesses. I'm guessing those are diseases 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:58.159 that cause blindness as well. Well. Right, So, so instead 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:01.080 of eye conditions that are largely age related, you know, 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:05.280 like cataracts or macular degeneration, and you know, gene therapy 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.159 this would be a way to target congenital or hereditary 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:10.520 eye diseases. And you know, so the way it works 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.600 is by injecting healthy genes into the eye and that 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:17.520 then helps repair the damage or mutated cells. So have 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.040 we already tried this? Well, yeah, one of the earliest 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:23.680 successful trials was started back in two thousand seven and 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:26.880 researchers at the University of Pennsylvania they got together ten 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:31.560 blind volunteers and they all had Liber's congenital amurosis and 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:35.720 that's this hereditary disease that causes retinal degeneration. And and 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:39.159 then of course blindness soon after that. And the volunteers 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:42.439 were injected with this harmless virus, and it contained healthy 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.159 copies of a gene. It was that same gene that 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:48.080 had mutated in their eyes and caused their blindness in 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:51.359 the first place. So I'm so turned off and grossed 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:53.720 out with the idea of eye injections. I mean, it's 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:56.240 just such a horrifying thought, and it just makes me 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.440 think of like clockwork, orange or terminator and all cruise. Now, 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.200 I get that, And I was actually thinking the same 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:04.600 thing earlier when we were talking about the surgeries that 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:07.600 you know, either stick electrodes or micro chips into the 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:10.040 I mean, it's all stuff that can make you pretty queasy. 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.520 But after these injections, did the volunteers actually get their 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:15.679 sight back? They did, And some of them had been 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:18.680 unable to see even like a hand waving and right 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:22.240 in front of their face before the procedure, But afterward, 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:24.240 I mean they were able to read the first six 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.200 lines on a site chart. I mean six lines. That's 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:29.160 something I think a lot of people couldn't do even 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.760 if they were squinting. And and that's not all either. 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:33.800 I mean there were some volunteers that were even able 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.600 to make their way through a dimly lit obstacle course. 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:39.480 And so it's probably a pretty fun day and one 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:41.920 that you know, this definitely would have been possible without 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.240 this therapy. I mean, it's really miraculous. I I am 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:47.200 curious though, So, since we were talking about the eye 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:50.439 brain connection, does this gene therapy affect the brain at all? 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:54.040 Like it seems like it would have to write because 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:56.960 I guess like the pathways in the brain aren't actually 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:59.919 set up to receive visual signals, so how are they 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.280 able to register the ones sent by these new genes. 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:04.560 Well that's a good point, and the truth is the 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:07.600 researchers weren't certain of how well the volunteers would be 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:11.000 able to process the new information that the therapy allowed for. 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:13.200 And you know, the consensus for a while was that 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:16.520 there's been this limited window early in life when neurons 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.720 can be trimmed and shaped and reshaped, and you know, 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:23.480 as time goes on, that plasticity decreases. And most of 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:25.760 the gene therapy volunteers have been in their twenties at 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.080