1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Guess what will? What's that mango? So I was organizing 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: my computer and my bookmarks folder last week and I 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: found this old story I had bookmarked forever ago. It 4 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:12,959 Speaker 1: was about this guy named Josh Silver who created these 5 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: self adjusted glasses. Have you heard about these? I do 6 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: remember this from a while back. I mean, I'm a 7 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: little foggy on it. I remember they came with these 8 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: little syringes to set them right. Yeah, that's right, and 9 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: they are amazing. So basically Silver figured out that if 10 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: you put a little bit of silicon oil in between 11 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: two pieces of round glass, you can make these adjustable 12 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: glasses for people with poor vision. And you don't even 13 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: need an optometrist like in the newest versions. I I 14 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:40,639 Speaker 1: think you can actually just adjust a dial with your 15 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: hands until it squirts in the right amount of oils 16 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: so you can see clearly. And then you just said it. 17 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: And the things only cost like twenty dollars a piece. Yeah, 18 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: and and so they're actually reusable, so you can adjust 19 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: them as your vision changes. And the whole idea was 20 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: to help people in developing nations. But apparently the frames 21 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: do have one downside, and that's that the frames have 22 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: to be circular. Well, I mean that's not terrible. Just 23 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: think John Lennon or Gandhi even I mean some big names, 24 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: that's right. And I've actually seen some competing brands online 25 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: now that use different shapes. But it's all pretty amazing. 26 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: And it got me thinking. If we have these super 27 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: smart and super cheap solutions for people with poor vision, 28 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: how far are we from giving sight to people with 29 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,960 Speaker 1: no vision? And that's our big question today. Will we 30 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: ever cure blindness? Can stem cells and gene therapy help? 31 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: And why should humans let a doctor stick a bit 32 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: of algae into their eye sockets? Let's dive in. Hey 33 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: their podcast listeners, Welcome to Part Time Genius on Will 34 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: Pearson And as always I'm joined by my good friend 35 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: main guest Shot Ticketer and on the other side of 36 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: the soundproof glass wearing a blindfold as he concentrates on 37 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: the sound. He's such an artistic genius, that's our Palin 38 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 1: producer Tristan McNeil. I guess he does that when he's 39 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: focusing now, yeah, I think it's something he picked up 40 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: while he was watching, you know, one of his favorite movies, 41 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: which was The Third Karate Kick. The most important in 42 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,119 Speaker 1: it really is a pretty important one. But but that's 43 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: Tristan anyway. You know, while Tristan can restore his site 44 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: anytime he pleases, there are millions of people with actual 45 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,639 Speaker 1: visual impairments who don't have that option. And in fact, 46 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: according to that GEO, roughly one in every two hundred 47 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: people on Earth can't see. That's about thirty nine million people. 48 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: In addition, there are another two hundred and forty six 49 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: million people with conditions that moderately or severely limit their vision. 50 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: So despite the fact that humans have spent thousands of 51 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: years searching for ways to remedy blindness, all that collective 52 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: effort hasn't been enough yet. But we're actually getting much closer. 53 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: So for today's episode, we're shining a light on the 54 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: newest sign and trying to determine will we find a 55 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 1: cure for blindness. So you know what's bonkers is I 56 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: was looking up cures for blindness and the craziest story 57 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: I found was about this guy from Foulmth, Maine. I 58 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: guess he was a trucker from the area and he'd 59 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: been in this serious accident on this icy bridge and 60 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 1: he lost his vision as a result. So his wife 61 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: had this really sweet story of I guess leading him 62 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: around the house and being his eyes for him and 63 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: and giving them all these mnemonic devices of like how 64 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: many stairs to go down then up so he could 65 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: get out of the house. And she was doing this 66 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: for years, like eight years or nine years or something. 67 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: And then one day, during a storm, he went out 68 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: to get one of his pet chickens and as he 69 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: was out there, he was struck with lightning and he 70 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: was completely stunned, but he went in after he took 71 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: a nap, and when he woke up he could actually 72 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: see again, no way from the lightning strike. Yeah, it's unbelievable, 73 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: and I he was on the news everywhere, from like 74 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: local news to the Washington Post to stations in Japan, 75 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: and like no one could figure out why it jarred 76 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: his brain into reconnecting his vision. I mean, it's just 77 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: such a crazy and amazing story. But you know, but 78 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: back to what you're saying, I'm actually glad that you 79 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: mentioned upfront that there's so much variation on the term 80 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: blind because thing of blindness as a complete lack of 81 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: functional vision and only that is actually an oversimplification. So 82 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: I didn't realize this until we started digging into the research. 83 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: But you know how someone with good vision is said 84 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: to have vision, Well, someone who's legally blind is defined 85 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: as having equal to or worse than, twenty two hundred 86 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: and their strongest die. And you might be wondering what 87 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 1: that means. If you're you can actually see an object 88 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: about two hundred feet away, but with twenty two hundred 89 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: you can see no further than twenty feet, which means 90 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: even though they're leally blind, they can still see and 91 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: with the aid of prescription glasses or contacts, you might 92 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: actually be able to see pretty clearly. Yeah, I mean, 93 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 1: twenty feet is not exactly just a short distance, and 94 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: I guess it does help us. Remember, just like with sidedness, 95 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 1: there's this spectrum for blindness, so some sided people see 96 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: better than others, and some blind people see worse than others. 97 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 1: And so I guess that nuance in all of that 98 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: is is easy to lose track of. Sometimes that's definitely true, 99 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: although I did read that people who developed even a 100 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: minor visual impairment like near sightedness actually have a higher 101 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: risk of developing a more serious eye condition down the line, 102 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: which is kind of scary to think about when you 103 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: consider that something like the current US population is actually 104 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: near sighted. Well, and the stats on that are getting, 105 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: you know, maybe even scarier than that. There was a 106 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen study from the journal Ophthalmology, and 107 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: it was talking about the fact that the number of 108 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: people with myopia or near sightedness that's only expected to 109 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: grow in the coming years, and in fact, by twenty fifty, 110 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: half of the world's population will be near sighted. So 111 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: why is that, like, what's making bad vision so rampant? Well, 112 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: I think the guess that most people would have on 113 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,119 Speaker 1: this is pretty accurate. You know, if you think about 114 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: the amount of time we spend indoors staring at our screens, 115 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 1: and so the result is that more people have eyes 116 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: that work well when looking at things up close, but 117 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 1: not so much when faced with far away objects. Yeah, 118 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:08,799 Speaker 1: it's kind of baffling that we do this to ourselves. 119 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm saying this as I'm taking selfie of 120 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: myself and also checking the weather good stuff. I don't 121 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: know which you do more, take selfies or check the weather. 122 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: But it's not stop. So, of course, the phones and 123 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: the tiny screens is only part of the story. There's 124 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: some visual impairments are obviously there from birth. You've got 125 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: others that developed later in life, and some like our 126 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: truck driver friend or the result of trauma. Yeah, you know, 127 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:33,679 Speaker 1: and then they're the types of blindness that are brought 128 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: on by disease. And you know, all of that variation 129 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 1: means there's never going to be a universal cure for 130 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: vision laws. I mean, there's a whole host of things 131 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: that can cause and and that means we'll need a 132 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: wide range of treatments to cover all of our bases 133 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: on this. Well, let's talk about some of the most 134 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: promising strategies, because there are three major ones at the moment. 135 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: We've got bionic implants, stem cell research, and there's gene therapy. 136 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: And the first of these has been in play the longest, 137 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: with different styles of bionic eyes that are popped up 138 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: all over the world for a while now here in 139 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: the States. The first to be approved by the FDA 140 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: was the Argus Too. This is a system that pairs 141 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: electrodes and planet in the redina with a video camera 142 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: attached to a pair of fancy classes. Well, and you 143 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: should talk about the kind of blindness that helps with it, 144 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: because if I remember, it's pretty specific right, Yeah, it's 145 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: so it's aimed at people who suffer from a rare 146 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: hereditary disease called Rednitis pigmentosa, and that causes cells in 147 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: the red knet to decreate over time, and they're between 148 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: one and two thousand people affected by it in the US. Supposedly, 149 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: the condition feels like looking down a tunnel that's gradually 150 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: gradually narrowing until it finally disappears. And what the CEO 151 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: of Argus claims is that the company is trying to 152 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: use the device to almost reopen that window that's closed 153 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: on them. I mean that sounds amazing. But these implants 154 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: have obviously been in development for a while now, so 155 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: so how advanced is the Argus too. The thing is, 156 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: there's actually more cutting edge technology out there. The Argus 157 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: is just the last one the FDA is signed off on. 158 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: But if you look at what's emerging from labs, you 159 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: can actually find devices that are even more effective at 160 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: helping people see. So for example, there's this one being 161 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: tested in the UK where a microchip is implanted in 162 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: the eye to stimulate the optic nerve. The chip basically 163 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: feeds visual information to the nerve, which in turn sends 164 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: it up to the brain. I mean, a lot of 165 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: this stuff sounds kind of like science fiction while also 166 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: being totally believable at the same time. But I'm curious, 167 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: I mean, how close to full sightedness to these kinds 168 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 1: of devices actually get somebody. So that's one interesting point. 169 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: Both the artus too and the microchip I mentioned they 170 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: only deliver images in black and white, and since the 171 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: argus only uses about sixty electrodes to stimulate the rediness neurons, 172 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: the resolution isn't actually that good yet. So these implants 173 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: can help patients distinguish between light and dark, which I 174 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: guess means they can read large printed letters or even 175 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: recognize where objects are located. But you can't exactly drive 176 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: a car or you know, pilot a plane yet. And again, 177 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: these devices are only effective for treating a rare kind 178 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: of visual impairment in the first place. Yeah, and we 179 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: should stop for a second to acknowledge the fact that, 180 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: you know, the leading cause of blindness around the world 181 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: is is something we've actually developed a cure for, and 182 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,079 Speaker 1: and those are cataracts, And so, just as a refresher 183 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: on this, cataracts are basically this build up of protein 184 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: on the lens of the eye and a clouding that 185 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: results in you know, in faded colors and blurry vision, 186 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: and it gets worse over time. So cataracts tend to 187 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: occur as people get older, but they can also result 188 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: from congenital problems or maybe even physical trauma from time 189 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: to time if it happens directly to the eye. And 190 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: like I said, cataracts typically can be treated through surgeries 191 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: that they just replaced the clouded lens with artificial ones. 192 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: So every time I think about cataracts surgeries, I always 193 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: think about this origin story we had from mental floss 194 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: And the only reason I remember is that I'm actually 195 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: terrified at touching my eyes or anything even being close 196 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: to my eye. But the story was that, I think 197 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: it was like an ancient Greece or Rome, there was 198 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: this goat hurder who had a blind goat and he 199 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: accidentally saw it walk into a thorn bush and when 200 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: it scratched its eyes, suddenly you could start seeing again. Yeah, 201 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like it's definitely a story that 202 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: gets mentioned as as that inspiration for cataract surgeries. And 203 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's true or not, but it's 204 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: definitely an interesting story, and the procedures have been around 205 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: for a long time. I mean, you know Celsus, the 206 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: old Roman physician, he actually described early cataract surgeries. And 207 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: you know, this guy was alive in like twenty five BC, 208 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: so this is a long, long time ago. And you know, 209 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: obviously the surgery has evolved over the centuries. But even 210 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: though twenty million people have done it every year, there 211 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: are still huge swaths of the world population who don't 212 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: have access to treatment, or maybe that don't even know 213 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: that it exists. Yeah, which is really sad. And in 214 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: this case, I guess the challenge isn't so much developing 215 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: a cure as it is finding a better way to 216 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: roll out the cure did those who need it. But 217 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 1: you know, for the millions of people who do get 218 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: the surgery, do they return to full vision or is 219 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 1: it more of a mixed bag? Well, it varies. I mean, 220 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: for some it's a complete fix, and others still need 221 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: glasses or contacts in order to get the full effect. 222 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 1: But actually there's a new surgical technique being tested that 223 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: would do away with the mixed results while also making 224 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: the whole procedure a lot less of invasive than it is. Now, 225 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: So how does that work? Well, strangely enough, it's by 226 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: using the body's own stem cells to regrow a functional 227 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: lens for the eye. How weird is that? So? I 228 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: don't even know if I should be embarrassed to admit this, 229 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: But before this episode, I didn't know that I had 230 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: stem cells. Well, I don't think a lot of people do. 231 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: And and actually every tissue in the body contains stem 232 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: cells and they can replace any damage cells within that tissue. 233 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: And you know the problem is that stem cells tend 234 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: to diminish as we age, and that's why this new 235 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: approach is mainly dealt with cataracts that are in children. 236 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: You know, they just have more stem cells to work 237 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: with than adults do. That's crazy that kids can get cataracts. 238 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: Like I thought it was just for goats and old people. 239 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: But you're learning so much today. And so if this 240 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: new technique uses stem cells that are already in place, 241 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: why is it a surgery. Well, the surgery is to 242 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: remove the non functional ie lens while leaving the functional 243 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: stem cells you know, within that lens intact in that situation. 244 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: But it's kind of like setting aside seeds from a 245 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: piece of fruit that's gone bad, Like you can't salvage 246 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: the flesh that's turned, but you know, the seeds can 247 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: still be used to produce a new fruit. And that's 248 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: kind of a weird analogy. I've been working on it 249 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: for days. I was trying to think of a good analogy, 250 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: but I felt good about that one. So, um, I 251 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 1: guess you've got this I fruit from these stem cell 252 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 1: seeds and and that actually ends up being useful. Yeah, 253 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: see it worked. This was a top shelf analogy. This 254 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: is this is pretty good. Well, actually, let me read 255 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: you this breakdown from an article I found in Popsie. 256 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: It says, quote, the researchers tried their procedure on twelve 257 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: human babies under two years old. They found that in 258 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: these children, the lenses were functional and regenerated faster than 259 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: the twenty five children who received even the standard treatment 260 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: for cataracts. The new technique also reduced the chance of 261 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: complications and increase the clarity of the visual field by 262 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: twenty times. Actually, looking at this, like, the only downside 263 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: is that older patients with cataracts would have a tougher 264 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 1: time regenerating lenses because you know, their lack of stem cells, 265 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: but this procedure could help them, it would just take 266 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: longer for the new lens to form. Well, I mean, 267 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: it's still an amazing breakthrough either way, And for elderly 268 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: patients there's always the option of stem cell transplants from 269 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: a different person's body, like the sixth year old from 270 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: Japan who was able to stave off blindness with little 271 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: help from his friend, where his friends stem cells rather well, 272 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: I definitely want to hear about this, and we should 273 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: probably talk about gene therapy while we're at it. But 274 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: before we dig in, let's take a quick break. You're 275 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:00,959 Speaker 1: listening to part time genius. We're talking about the most 276 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: promising efforts to cure blindness. All right, mangoes. So, historically 277 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: stem cell transplantation has been an ethically touchy subject for 278 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: you know a lot of people. So doing your research 279 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: this week, did did you find anything that might ease 280 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: those concerns? And if not, what's the best way to 281 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: reach you for anybody that wants to send you, you know, 282 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: maybe an angry note or email. Well, first off, I 283 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: suggest writing your senator, not your local podcast host. But 284 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: uh yeah, we we've definitely figured out how to utilize 285 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: stem cells in ways that don't carry that ethical stigma 286 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: that I guess embryonic stem cell research does. So, as 287 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: we were teasing before the break, in March of two seventeen, 288 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: a Japanese men in his sixties became the first person 289 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: to receive a stem cell transplant from another person in 290 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: order to keep from going blind. So who was that donor? 291 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: Because you know, I'm thinking about this if if older 292 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: people don't have many stem cells left to donate, I mean, 293 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: I think you said this was ethically safe. So I 294 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: assume these weren't from a kid, right, So this is 295 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: amazing thing. The donated cells came from a living adult. 296 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: They just weren't stem cells when they were removed from 297 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: the donor. Al Right, So how does that work? Exactly? 298 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: Like did they get the mature cells to revert back 299 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: into stem cells? Exactly? They Benjamin button them. So scientists 300 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: basically took some mature cells and it was skin cells 301 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: in this case, and then they reprogrammed them back into 302 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: this embryonic state and from there the cells were manipulated 303 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: until they became a type of redinal cell that's useful 304 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: for slowing down map of the degeneration. All right, So 305 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: this surgery last year. What was this the first time 306 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: reprogrammed cells like this have been used to treat blindness? No, 307 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: so that's actually the crazy part. This is the first 308 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: time using reprogrammed cells taken from someone else's body. In 309 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen, they've done this before. A Japanese woman 310 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: received retinal cells that have been reprogrammed from a sample 311 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: of her own skin cells and the procedure worked. But 312 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: there's actually a higher risk of genetic abnormality when using 313 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: your own skin cells. So the success of last year's 314 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: transplant was this giant leap towards making stem cell transplants 315 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: both safer and easier to perform. Yeah, and it actually 316 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: reminds me of something else from nat GEO, which which 317 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: mentioned that neuroscientists really appreciate studies on the eye because, 318 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: as one of them said, quote, it's the only place 319 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: you see the brain without drilling a hole. So obviously 320 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: I see the advantage of not having to drill holes 321 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: in people's heads. But how exactly do we see the 322 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: brain through the eye. Well, the ideas that the retina 323 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: is basically a bundle of neurons connected to the brain 324 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: via the optic nerve so it sort of makes the 325 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: whole eye seem like, as one neuroscientist put it, an 326 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: out pouching of the brain. I don't think I've ever 327 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: heard the word out pouching before. I just wanted to 328 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: use the word out pouching, So I kind of crafted 329 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: all of my notes around being able to say that 330 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: because it's super useful and scrabble, but but it actually 331 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 1: is really fascinating it. The whole idea is that because 332 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: of this connection between the I and the brain, there's 333 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: a good chance that treatments that are effective in the 334 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 1: eye might also have applications in the brain or maybe 335 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 1: even the spinal cord. So, as David Dobbs puts it 336 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: for nat GEO quote, experimental strategies now focused on the 337 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 1: eye may drive future treatments for the whole human organism. 338 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: Gene therapy offers the promise of fixing faulty genes that 339 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: cause illnesses of all kinds. So it goes on to 340 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 1: talk about some examples here he says, you know, stem 341 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 1: cells off for the promise of replacing entire tissue structures. 342 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: Bionic implants may replace failing organs, the eyes becoming a 343 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: window not just to the soul, but also to the 344 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: possibilities and limits, of course of therapeutic approaches on which 345 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: medicine is betting its future. I mean, it's super cool 346 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: to think that the research of curing blindness is kind 347 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: of leading the way in all these new fields. Yeah, 348 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: it is. And uh, you mentioned gene therapy being used 349 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 1: to fix disease causing illnesses. I'm guessing those are diseases 350 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 1: that cause blindness as well. Well. Right, So, so instead 351 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: of eye conditions that are largely age related, you know, 352 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: like cataracts or macular degeneration, and you know, gene therapy 353 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 1: this would be a way to target congenital or hereditary 354 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: eye diseases. And you know, so the way it works 355 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: is by injecting healthy genes into the eye and that 356 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: then helps repair the damage or mutated cells. So have 357 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: we already tried this? Well, yeah, one of the earliest 358 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: successful trials was started back in two thousand seven and 359 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 1: researchers at the University of Pennsylvania they got together ten 360 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: blind volunteers and they all had Liber's congenital amurosis and 361 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: that's this hereditary disease that causes retinal degeneration. And and 362 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 1: then of course blindness soon after that. And the volunteers 363 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 1: were injected with this harmless virus, and it contained healthy 364 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 1: copies of a gene. It was that same gene that 365 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: had mutated in their eyes and caused their blindness in 366 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: the first place. So I'm so turned off and grossed 367 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: out with the idea of eye injections. I mean, it's 368 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: just such a horrifying thought, and it just makes me 369 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: think of like clockwork, orange or terminator and all cruise. Now, 370 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: I get that, And I was actually thinking the same 371 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: thing earlier when we were talking about the surgeries that 372 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: you know, either stick electrodes or micro chips into the 373 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: I mean, it's all stuff that can make you pretty queasy. 374 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: But after these injections, did the volunteers actually get their 375 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 1: sight back? They did, And some of them had been 376 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: unable to see even like a hand waving and right 377 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: in front of their face before the procedure, But afterward, 378 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: I mean they were able to read the first six 379 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: lines on a site chart. I mean six lines. That's 380 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 1: something I think a lot of people couldn't do even 381 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: if they were squinting. And and that's not all either. 382 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: I mean there were some volunteers that were even able 383 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: to make their way through a dimly lit obstacle course. 384 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: And so it's probably a pretty fun day and one 385 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 1: that you know, this definitely would have been possible without 386 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: this therapy. I mean, it's really miraculous. I I am 387 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: curious though, So, since we were talking about the eye 388 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 1: brain connection, does this gene therapy affect the brain at all? 389 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: Like it seems like it would have to write because 390 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: I guess like the pathways in the brain aren't actually 391 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 1: set up to receive visual signals, so how are they 392 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: able to register the ones sent by these new genes. 393 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: Well that's a good point, and the truth is the 394 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: researchers weren't certain of how well the volunteers would be 395 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: able to process the new information that the therapy allowed for. 396 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: And you know, the consensus for a while was that 397 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: there's been this limited window early in life when neurons 398 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: can be trimmed and shaped and reshaped, and you know, 399 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: as time goes on, that plasticity decreases. And most of 400 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: the gene therapy volunteers have been in their twenties at 401 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: the time the procedure, and I think one of them 402 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: was like forty five, So there was definitely no guarantee 403 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: that their neural pathways could be repaired enough to transmit 404 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: those those visual signals. I mean it clearly worked, right, 405 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 1: I mean they were racing through obstacle courses and zooing 406 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 1: down eye charts and getting impressive. Oh it definitely isn't 407 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: you know. In fact, the researchers actually gathered the participants 408 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: again two years later and they conducted various brain scans 409 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: just to see how well their neural pathways had adjusted, 410 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: And amazingly, the scans showed that they looked very similar 411 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: to the pathways and people who didn't have any sort 412 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: of vision problems. I mean, it's just incredible when you 413 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: look at that. And according to the lead researchers name 414 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: is man Tzar ashtari Uh, there may be a critical 415 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: window of accelerated brain plasticity, but we've shown that doesn't 416 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: mean you lose the capability of restructuring pathways as an adult. 417 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: So I like this idea of old dogs that are 418 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: perfectly capable of learning new tricks. Yeah, well, all right, 419 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: there's one more form of gene therapy that I do 420 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: want to make sure that we get to. But before 421 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: we get into it, let's take a quick break. Welcome 422 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: back to part time genius. Okay, well, so what's this 423 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: other kind of gene therapy that you wanted to talk about. 424 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 1: I think you said it's like lawless and a miracle cure. 425 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: Isn't that right? No, I definitely did not say that, 426 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: But actually, in all honesty that this one isn't without 427 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: its drawbacks, just like the other treatments. I mean, all 428 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: of these treatments and advancements do have some drawbacks at 429 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: this point, but at the end of the day, it's 430 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: too cool not to talk about this one, all right. So, 431 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: first of all, have you ever heard of optogenetics? I 432 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: don't think so. Know. Well, optogenetics is typically used in animals, 433 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 1: and it helps researchers get a better sense of how 434 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: exactly the brain works. And if you think about the 435 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 1: name and what it implies the technique, it's it's really 436 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 1: a combination of optics and genetics. So basically, it's a 437 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: way to change the DNA of nerve cells so that 438 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: they can be controlled by light, which sounds super cool, 439 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: but I have no idea what that means. Well, basically, 440 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: it helps researchers illuminate certain parts of the brain and 441 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: then monitor and animals brain behavior after doing that. And 442 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: in the past, optogenetics hasn't been utilized in humans, you know, 443 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: namely because of what it involves. I mean, it normally 444 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: involves attaching a wire to the brain through a hole 445 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: in the head, and for some reason, people just don't 446 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: seem that excited about that. But as we mentioned earlier, 447 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: I mean, the eye is a pretty handy way to 448 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 1: access the brain without the need for the power tools 449 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: involved in the other ways. Wait, so what kind of 450 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: light detecting gene are they injecting and and what are 451 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: we trying to do to the brain? Exactly? All right, Well, 452 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: let's talk about this one company. There's a French company 453 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: called gen Site Biologics, and they actually recently got approval 454 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 1: to start human trials with opti genetics, and they're actually 455 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: gearing up for it right now. I think the target 456 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: is the first quarter of this year, if I'm not mistaken, 457 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: And their hope is to restore sight to people with 458 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: retinitis pigmentosa. But here's the really cool part. The gene 459 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: the company is using is derived from a single celled algae, Yes, algae, 460 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: I mean it's actually the gene that the algae uses 461 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: to detect light. So in this human application, the ideas 462 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: that the algae gene will convert the ganglion cells and 463 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: the human eye into these photo receptor cells. So I'm sorry, 464 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: but you're actually gonna have to refresh me on what 465 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: ganglion cells are. I'm a little fuzzy on Well. So, 466 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: normally these ganglion cells relate visual information from the eye 467 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: to the brain, but in people with this disorder, this 468 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 1: retinitis pigment tosa, the cells are actually just too damaged 469 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 1: in order to function. So so by injecting these light 470 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: detecting cells to fill in for those damage cells, the 471 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: hope is to kind of, you know, restart that conversation 472 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: between the eye and the brain. I just think that's 473 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: so wild to think about. I mean, it's like a 474 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: cure for blindness using genes from a single cell organism 475 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: that that can't see on its own. Yeah, it is 476 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: pretty weird. It actually reminds me this Wired article I 477 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: read that it was pointing out how different this kind 478 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: of treatment was compared to the other type of gene 479 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: therapy that you know, we mentioned earlier, and you know, 480 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: as the author put it, a company isn't inserting a 481 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: gene from another human, another mammal, or even another animal, 482 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: but from algae. Forget cross species, this is cross domain. 483 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: So it sounds like it's working out though, right, So 484 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,239 Speaker 1: what kind of vision does this algae gene supply? All? Right, Well, 485 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: this is where we do get into the whole imperfect 486 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: cure thing, because these algae genes would only boost the 487 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: eyes detection of red light. So what does that mean? 488 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: That that means that the new photoreceptors wouldn't be able 489 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: to perceive green or blue light, and as a result 490 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: of that, the patients would only be able to see 491 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: in black and white. So it winds up being about 492 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: as useful for treating this form of blindness as the 493 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: bionic argus I I was talking about earlier, since that 494 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: was also limited to black and white. Right, Well, that 495 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: is true, but I think you were saying the argus 496 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: used what like sixty electrodes, and you know, so if 497 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: this algae gene can convert even just ten of the 498 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: eyes retinal ganglion cells into photo receptors, that would actually 499 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: be the equivalent of roughly a hundred thousand electrodes. So 500 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: while the vision granted by this algae gene would would 501 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: still lack color. It's definitely a whole other level in 502 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: terms of clarity. I mean, this would be pretty much 503 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: unprecedented in terms of blindness treatment, which is super impressive. 504 00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: But you know, even in trying to keep an even 505 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: keeled approach to the subject, there's one downside to gene 506 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: therapy for blindness that we haven't touched on yet, and 507 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: that's price. So I'm not sure if you saw this, 508 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: but late last year, the first gene therapy in the 509 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 1: US was approved by the FDA. It's called lux Turna 510 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: and it's designed to treat libres, that form of inherited 511 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: blindness that you mentioned earlier. Yeah, I remember hearing about 512 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: this in December, and it's when we were first starting 513 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: to talk about maybe doing this episode. But but I 514 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 1: don't think they'd settled on a sticker price. But from 515 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: what you're saying, it sounds like it's on the higher end. Yeah. 516 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: So the final price is eighty dollars pur patient. Wow, 517 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: that's definitely on the higher end. That actually makes it 518 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: the most expensive medicine sold in the US. Yeah, And 519 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: and if you consider like only a couple of thousand 520 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: people are affected by libres each year, so it's hard 521 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: to imagine that's going to get cheaper fast. But still 522 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: there's no question that people LIKEX Turner would would help. 523 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: I guess they would say it's worth the price. Maybe, 524 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: So That's what I would have said at first, but 525 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: now I'm not so sure. We've spent a lot of 526 00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: the show weighing the pros and cons of different treatment 527 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: options and trying to get a sense of how close 528 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: we are to effective cures for blindness. But one thing 529 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 1: we haven't stopped to consider is whether the people who 530 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: actually live with blindness and other visual impairments whether they 531 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: even want vision. Yeah, and I remember reading, you know, 532 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: I think it was in an Oliver Sacks work years ago, 533 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: just about how overwhelming that experience could be for those 534 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 1: that suddenly regained vision. And I have to admit, like 535 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: I'd always been under the assumption that, you know, most 536 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: people who were blind, or almost everyone who was blind 537 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: would want to see. But I don't know, do do 538 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: you think that's a safe assumption to make? Yeah? So 539 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: I I read a few accounts from blind people while 540 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: researching that made me think it might not be that 541 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: cut and dry. So in fact, there seems to be 542 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: a good bit of debate within the blind community over 543 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: which treatments or even which potential cures are actually worth 544 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: the hassle. So, for example, some people might only go 545 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: for a treatment if it could deliver full color vision, 546 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: while others would be content with the blurry black and 547 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: vision that you know I mentioned a while back. And 548 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: and also there are also plenty of blind people who 549 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 1: say they don't care about the prospect of site, and 550 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: I'm curious about that. And again, we have no experience 551 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: like this to be able to even understand it. But 552 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: were you able to get a sense of of why 553 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: that is, maybe there is this article in The Atlantic 554 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: that gave almost a different perspective, and I've got the 555 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,479 Speaker 1: quote here, So the author rights, for some people who 556 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 1: are blind, particularly if they've been blind since birth, gaining 557 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: site can actually be a bizarre, disruptive experience. People who 558 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: have regained sight, such as through a corneal transplant, report 559 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: being unable to recognize objects until they picked them up 560 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: in their hands, as they've been doing their whole life. Well, 561 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: and you know, so that's something that I really hadn't 562 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: thought about that much before, but it does make a 563 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: lot of sense. And I mean, researching new ways to 564 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: cure eye disease is obviously a good thing and worth doing, 565 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: but it's maybe a little naive to assume that all 566 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: blind people would even consider themselves in need of a cure. Definitely, 567 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: And actually there was another good quote in the Atlantic piece. 568 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: So it was from a woman named us Stacy Cervenka, 569 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: who was born blind because our optic nerve hadn't developed. 570 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: And she works as an executive officer for the California 571 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: State Rehab Clinic and her husband, who is blinded by 572 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: a gunshot, also teaches there and he teaches people to 573 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: get around independently anyway. Stacy said, it's not like we've 574 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: been sitting in rocking chairs for decades and we were 575 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: waiting until we can go to the hospital for treatment. 576 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: Blind people who have lives that are as busy and 577 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: chaotic and full as any sided people. Yeah, I like 578 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: that quote. It's definitely something we should we should always remember. 579 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: But alright, Mango, I think you know what time it is. 580 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: Time for the fact off, let's do it. So here's 581 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: a quick one. In Crayola's Top crayon maker, a man 582 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: named Emerson Moser retired after thirty eight years at the job, 583 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: and just before he did, he revealed that he'd been 584 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: color blind the whole time. That's hilarious. I'm curious, though, 585 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: do you know if it affected his job at all? 586 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: I I mean, he made over one point four billion 587 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: crayons and and Crayola exacts. We're all praised for him, 588 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: so I don't think so. Though he did admit to 589 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: double checking his work a lot. And uh. Also, this 590 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: is a cute aside, his his work boots, which were 591 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: ankle high and coated in all these different colors of 592 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: crown drippings from his work days are now on display 593 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: at the Crayola Hall of Fame. It's pretty fun. Well, 594 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: I've got a pretty good one too here. So Ralph Tater, 595 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: who invented cruise control, was actually blind. Now he was 596 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: a genius inventor who was an incredible engineer, but he 597 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: actually got the idea for cruise control when he was 598 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: riding around in the car with his lawyer. And apparently 599 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,719 Speaker 1: the guy was a terrible driver, and as they were 600 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: driving around, he kept breaking and jerking, and so Ralph 601 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: realized there's got to be a better way. I love that. 602 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: So had you heard the Egyptians thought you could actually 603 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: cure blindness by dropping a little bat blood in your eyes. 604 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: They assumed that because bats could see at night, the 605 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: blood might have some superpower. That's not the craziest idea 606 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: in the world. But actually, speaking of bats, have you 607 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: heard about these ultrasonic helmets that allow you to see 608 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: like about So it's called the Sonic Eye, and it's 609 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: still in development, but basically what it does it it 610 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: sends out these ultrasonic chirps and then it catches them 611 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: in these two bat shaped ears. And then you've got 612 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: this processor that slows the sounds down by a factor 613 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: of like twenty or something, and that helps, you know, 614 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: make it audible for the person who's wearing it. But 615 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: the results are actually pretty amazing. So not only can 616 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: the people wearing them navigate on this hike through the forest, 617 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: but they can also decipher when these little changes happen, 618 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: Like you've got a plate that's moved in front of 619 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: them by less than twenty centimeters. They can actually detect that. 620 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: And in the future, scientists expect to reduce the devices 621 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: to look a little bit more like a sporty headband 622 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: than an awkward bat helmet, which I have to me, 623 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: it made me laugh a little bit when they were saying, Oh, 624 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: but don't worry. One day, we'll make it look like 625 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: a sporty headband. Well, I mean, I love that idea 626 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: and that you can actually see a nighttime it's pretty incredible. 627 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,959 Speaker 1: But that thing did remind me of a little life hack. Uh, 628 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: this is something I actually do. It's when you're getting 629 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: up at night to use the bathroom or whatever. If 630 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: you cut a hand over one eye before you turn 631 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: the lights on, and then keep that eye closed or 632 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: covered until you turn the lights back off, and then 633 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: switch eyes like whichever I a're using it. It's amazing, 634 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: but you'll actually be able to see in the dark 635 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: because the eye you kept closed never actually bothered to 636 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: adjust to the light. All right, Well here's a cool 637 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: one from Johns Hopkins. So did you know that when 638 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: blind people solve math problems, they use the same brain 639 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: areas as sighted people, not surprisingly, but they actually also 640 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: used parts of the brain that others only use for vision. 641 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: So the scientists were stunned to learn that they've basically 642 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: repurposed this part of their brain specifically for math. That's 643 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: pretty awesome. So this is what I think you'll like, 644 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: and it comes from pops. I. So apparently transplanting an 645 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: eyeball is really difficult because the optic nerve is super finicky, 646 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: but the way the article puts it, you might not 647 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: need to factor the optic nerve into the equation at all. 648 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: Eyes and perhaps other sensory organs can hook up to 649 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: any available central nervous system PORT and boot right up 650 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: if manipulated properly. So scientists are toughs have actually done this, 651 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: and they've taken blind tadpoles and grafted eyes to their 652 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: tails so that you can actually see from the backsides. 653 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: Oh man, mango. I can't compete with that, especially because 654 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: I know this is the fact that my kids are 655 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: going to remember of some creature being able to see 656 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: with their butts. So yeah, just outpouch something back there. 657 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: Yeah I did say outpout, so I think I deserve 658 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: some bonus points for that, But I'm gonna have to 659 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: give you the fact off trophy this week. Congratulations, Thank 660 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: you so much. That's it for today's episode. But as always, 661 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: if we've forgotten any great facts, whether it's about today's 662 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: subject or anything you feel like, we should know. We 663 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: would love to hear from you. You can email us 664 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: part Time Genius at how stuff Works dot com. You 665 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: can always call us on our in fact hot line 666 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: that's one eight four four pt Genius, or hit us 667 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: up on Facebook or Twitter. We love hearing from you. 668 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: We've loved hearing all the great questions and suggestions coming 669 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: in from listeners. But that's it for today's episode. Thanks 670 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:28,879 Speaker 1: so much for listening. Thanks again for listening. Part Time 671 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: Genius is a production of How Stuff Works and wouldn't 672 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: be possible without several brilliant people who do the important 673 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: things we couldn't even begin to understand. Tristan McNeil does 674 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,320 Speaker 1: the editing thing. Noel Brown made the theme song and 675 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: does the mixy mixy sound thing. Jerry Rowland does the 676 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: exact producer thing. Gave Bluesier is our lead researcher, with 677 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: support from the research Army including Austin Thompson, Nolan Brown 678 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: and Lucas Adams and Eve Jeff Cook gets the show 679 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: to your ears. Good job, Eves. If you like what 680 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: you heard, we hope you'll subscribe, And if you really 681 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: really like what you've heard, maybe you could leave a 682 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: good review for us. We could we forget Jason, who, 683 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: depending different