1
00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:09,160
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:13,800
Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

3
00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,840
Speaker 2: Chuck And this is another edition of Stuff you Should

4
00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:21,680
Speaker 2: Know is ongoing low key true crime. Sweet.

5
00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:24,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been a while, if you.

6
00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,599
Speaker 2: Like, I'm trying to think of the last one, but yeah,

7
00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:28,560
Speaker 2: I mean clearly it has been if I can't think

8
00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,000
Speaker 2: of the last one, but yeah, I like it every

9
00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:32,120
Speaker 2: once in a while. I was just kind of add

10
00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:34,800
Speaker 2: to it. And it's just this kind of thing because

11
00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,839
Speaker 2: they're interesting, especially if you're not looking at them like

12
00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:39,479
Speaker 2: a total gawker, you know.

13
00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:40,960
Speaker 1: Agreed.

14
00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:43,800
Speaker 2: So we're talking today about what I hadn't heard of.

15
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,240
Speaker 2: Let me ask you this before we get started. Yeah,

16
00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:51,680
Speaker 2: did you get your idea from People Magazine? No? Because

17
00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:56,160
Speaker 2: People Magazine ran an article on this very murder on

18
00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:58,920
Speaker 2: June twenty sixth, twenty twenty five.

19
00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,480
Speaker 1: Oh really, Yes, Like, where did you get this idea?

20
00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,640
Speaker 3: Well, I know it wasn't People, because you know, I

21
00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,840
Speaker 3: just I didn't read People. I'm not against it. If

22
00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,959
Speaker 3: I'm like, you know, waiting for the doctor or something, Well.

23
00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:13,600
Speaker 2: You're really digging yourself into a hole. Here.

24
00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:15,640
Speaker 1: I'll pick up a People magazine. That's fine.

25
00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,120
Speaker 3: I'm wondering now if this was a listener suggestion that

26
00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:22,039
Speaker 3: I need to look up.

27
00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,640
Speaker 2: I searched it and I did not really anything about it.

28
00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,319
Speaker 2: That's why I was like, holy cow, People magazine. He

29
00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:28,600
Speaker 2: really got it from there.

30
00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:29,319
Speaker 1: I don't know.

31
00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,600
Speaker 3: Maybe, I mean sometimes I might go so low as

32
00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:37,000
Speaker 3: to search for, you know, unsolved crimes or something.

33
00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:37,399
Speaker 1: I don't know.

34
00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,160
Speaker 2: Sure, there's nothing wrong with that. That my ideas well.

35
00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,480
Speaker 2: The crazy thing about this is it's I've seen it

36
00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,600
Speaker 2: described as like the first truly sensationalized trial of the

37
00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,040
Speaker 2: century in the United States, or that it was like

38
00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:54,880
Speaker 2: their first big trial of the century, something like that,

39
00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,639
Speaker 2: and I was definitely up there. I've seen it compare

40
00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,680
Speaker 2: with some other ones. Yeah, that came later closely on

41
00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:05,280
Speaker 2: the heels. But I never heard any of this. I've

42
00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:07,680
Speaker 2: never heard of any of these people. And yet some

43
00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,080
Speaker 2: other people say, hey, this might have even inspired the

44
00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:12,840
Speaker 2: Great Gatsby in some ways.

45
00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:15,680
Speaker 1: I have a feeling that's how it came to me.

46
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,200
Speaker 3: And now I'm wondering if that was the search term

47
00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,200
Speaker 3: that I should have used for listener's suggestion.

48
00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,200
Speaker 2: Oh Great Gatsby, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't search

49
00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,360
Speaker 2: for that either. Well, well, I have to get to

50
00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,560
Speaker 2: the bottom of this, like a couple of true detectives.

51
00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,200
Speaker 1: Now, because you feel like we're letting someone down.

52
00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, we probably are, but we do need to get

53
00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,080
Speaker 2: their name. But I wonder if if this thing is

54
00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,200
Speaker 2: sent post June twenty six, twenty twenty five. Bet they

55
00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,400
Speaker 2: got it from People, Okay, because the People magazine article,

56
00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,639
Speaker 2: like in the headline it said that it inspired the

57
00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:50,440
Speaker 2: Great Gatsby.

58
00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I definitely remember. That's what drew my

59
00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,320
Speaker 3: attention to it. But if you're trying to root me

60
00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,600
Speaker 3: out as a People Magazine reader, you're going to fail.

61
00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:01,960
Speaker 2: I'm not going to stop. I'm not going to stop

62
00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,840
Speaker 2: until i'm successful. So just look out, buddy, because you're

63
00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:06,079
Speaker 2: my crosschairs. Now.

64
00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:06,880
Speaker 1: Who knows.

65
00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,240
Speaker 2: So let's talk about this crime. In short, there was

66
00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,280
Speaker 2: a reverend, well known reverend in New Brunswick, New Jersey,

67
00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:19,240
Speaker 2: home of Rutgers, and this reverend was having an affair

68
00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,960
Speaker 2: with one of his church members, a woman named Eleanor Mills.

69
00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,920
Speaker 2: The reverend's name was Edward Hall. He was about seven

70
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,040
Speaker 2: years her senior from what I understand, and one night

71
00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,200
Speaker 2: or one morning, I should say, they turned up murdered,

72
00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,360
Speaker 2: brutally murdered, and it became, like I said, a very

73
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,520
Speaker 2: sensational story, not just in New Brunswick, not just in

74
00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,480
Speaker 2: nearby New York, but everywhere across the country. I would guess,

75
00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:51,680
Speaker 2: probably out of the country as well. Who knows, how

76
00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,000
Speaker 2: would you find something like that out I.

77
00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:58,360
Speaker 3: Don't know, People magazine probably, yeah, probably in People International.

78
00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,920
Speaker 3: So yeah, Ed Hall was in his early forties, forty

79
00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:04,440
Speaker 3: one years old at the time of his death, and

80
00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,880
Speaker 3: he was a pastor, like you said, at Saint John's Episcopal.

81
00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,080
Speaker 1: About twenty miles from where I lived in New Jersey.

82
00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,160
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, that's right.

83
00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:17,480
Speaker 3: And his wife's name was Francis Hall. She was seven

84
00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:23,080
Speaker 3: years older than him, interestingly, because I guess his mistress,

85
00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:24,839
Speaker 3: Eleanor Mills, was seven years younger.

86
00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:31,200
Speaker 1: Anything to that, I think it's just a fluke of nature. Yeah,

87
00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,680
Speaker 1: I think so too. But and this is kind of

88
00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:34,200
Speaker 1: key here.

89
00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,960
Speaker 3: She his wife had come from a you know, it

90
00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,520
Speaker 3: seems like a pretty wealthy, well to do, well connected

91
00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,480
Speaker 3: family in the area because he was just a pastor,

92
00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,560
Speaker 3: and you know, they didn't make a lot of dough.

93
00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,920
Speaker 3: Yet they lived in a really fancy house they had

94
00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,800
Speaker 3: a chauffeur, they had a staff, they had maids that

95
00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,200
Speaker 3: work there, which will come into play in this story.

96
00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:00,280
Speaker 3: And they had been married about eleven years. His miss Dress,

97
00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,960
Speaker 3: who was also brutally murdered. She was a homemaker, married

98
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,560
Speaker 3: to a school janitor named James, who also kind of

99
00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:09,320
Speaker 3: helped take care of the church. They had a couple

100
00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,359
Speaker 3: of kids. She sang in the choir, and this is

101
00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,600
Speaker 3: also key. She acted as sort of a very close

102
00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,920
Speaker 3: personal assistant to the reverend, like very closely assisted him,

103
00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:20,720
Speaker 3: if you know what I'm saying.

104
00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do know what you're saying. So one other

105
00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:29,440
Speaker 2: thing about Edward Hall and his wife Francis's fortune. He apparently,

106
00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,159
Speaker 2: when he first got to take over the church, the

107
00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,680
Speaker 2: Saint John's Episcopal Church, it was a hostel takeover. He

108
00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,760
Speaker 2: started courting a lovely parishioner, but she didn't really have

109
00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,640
Speaker 2: any money. He dropped her and put his sights on

110
00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:47,000
Speaker 2: Francis Stevens, who would become Francis Hall his wife. And

111
00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:51,520
Speaker 2: from what I've read, there's not a lot of note,

112
00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,040
Speaker 2: or there wasn't a lot of note about Francis Stevens

113
00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,000
Speaker 2: aside from her wealth, and she was wealthy. She shared

114
00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,320
Speaker 2: what would be worth today a forty million dollar fortune

115
00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,160
Speaker 2: between herself and her two other brothers, So she was

116
00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:07,480
Speaker 2: definitely wealthy, and so in addition to running around on her,

117
00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,640
Speaker 2: he also seemed to just have been after her money.

118
00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,880
Speaker 2: And let's not forget he's an episcopal reverend leading an

119
00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,760
Speaker 2: entire church. So that to me, when I put all

120
00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,039
Speaker 2: those things together, I was like, I don't really like

121
00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:19,520
Speaker 2: this guy.

122
00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:25,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, fair enough. So it was not a secret

123
00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:27,160
Speaker 3: among the church. You know, it's kind of one of

124
00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,719
Speaker 3: those things, you know, back in nineteen twenty two where

125
00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:32,760
Speaker 3: people might it might have been pretty clear and even

126
00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,799
Speaker 3: probably in a modern day church that somebody was having an affair,

127
00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:37,400
Speaker 3: but you didn't really talk about that kind of thing,

128
00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,920
Speaker 3: and so it was basically an open secret. After you know,

129
00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,280
Speaker 3: the sermons and after Sunday would end, they would spend

130
00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,440
Speaker 3: a lot of time together in his study. Apparently they

131
00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,000
Speaker 3: would leave love notes, and that will come into playing

132
00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,359
Speaker 3: the story for each other with a little secret system

133
00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:56,120
Speaker 3: where they would put it in a book on his

134
00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,120
Speaker 3: shelf and trade notes that way. Well, do you think

135
00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:03,000
Speaker 3: it was the Great gatsty just.

136
00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:04,080
Speaker 2: They traveled in time?

137
00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,400
Speaker 3: They did the day that the news broke though, The

138
00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,320
Speaker 3: New York's Time, The New York Times came out and said,

139
00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:12,200
Speaker 3: and this is how they would have to put this

140
00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:14,360
Speaker 3: kind of thing back then, they said they had long

141
00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:15,320
Speaker 3: been friendly.

142
00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,560
Speaker 2: Right, so yeah, like you said, this is an open secret.

143
00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:26,640
Speaker 2: Apparently their spouses knew. James Mills and Francis Hall both

144
00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,920
Speaker 2: seemed to have known about the affair. For one, when

145
00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,920
Speaker 2: they turned up missing that first day. Apparently, Francis Hall

146
00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:38,080
Speaker 2: the first time she spoke to James Mill, her husband's

147
00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:44,440
Speaker 2: mistress's husband, James said, do you think they eloped? That

148
00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,360
Speaker 2: was his response when he found out that they were

149
00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:51,240
Speaker 2: both missing. And apparently, also this is important too, Francis

150
00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:55,480
Speaker 2: Hall had a informal network of spies among the congregation

151
00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,720
Speaker 2: who kept tabs on those two and informed her of

152
00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,280
Speaker 2: their doing. Essentially, so both of them knew full well

153
00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:03,400
Speaker 2: what was going on.

154
00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,840
Speaker 3: Right, they knew, but they didn't project that publicly. Publicly

155
00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,680
Speaker 3: they both said, like my head didn't know this was

156
00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,640
Speaker 3: going on. And as we'll see later in court, she

157
00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,720
Speaker 3: even testified that you know, her marriage was perfect and

158
00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,880
Speaker 3: those these supposed love notes are fake and they were

159
00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:22,760
Speaker 3: not having an affair.

160
00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,360
Speaker 2: No, for sure, I think her first public response was

161
00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,320
Speaker 2: go wois So.

162
00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:36,400
Speaker 3: On the day of the murder, this was Thursday, September fourteenth,

163
00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,800
Speaker 3: they each you know, left their respective houses, and another

164
00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,840
Speaker 3: couple reported to seeing them meeting up on a bridge nearby.

165
00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,920
Speaker 3: And then a couple of days later another couple came forward.

166
00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,480
Speaker 3: This woman named well woman, she was fifteen years old.

167
00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,440
Speaker 3: She was a young girl named Pearl Bomber. Yet she

168
00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:55,800
Speaker 3: was in a relationship because this was in nineteen twenty

169
00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,320
Speaker 3: two with a guy who was anywhere from nineteen to

170
00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,480
Speaker 3: twenty three who can tell. His name was Raymond Schneider.

171
00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,079
Speaker 3: They came upon the bodies a couple of days later

172
00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,160
Speaker 3: on Old Philip Swarm. This is the other side of

173
00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,319
Speaker 3: the Raritan River there, and this is about ten thirty

174
00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,640
Speaker 3: in the morning. They went to the closest house, had

175
00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:15,600
Speaker 3: the owner called the cops, and the cops showed up

176
00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:16,280
Speaker 3: pretty quickly.

177
00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, the bodies. They it was pretty disturbing. So they'd

178
00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,120
Speaker 2: been left on a path off of Derusi's Lane. This

179
00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,720
Speaker 2: is a dure road I think in Somerset County, and

180
00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:28,960
Speaker 2: it was a well known lover's lane. Like this is

181
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,520
Speaker 2: the kind of time where you had to go out

182
00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,160
Speaker 2: to a lover's lane to either have an affair or

183
00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,880
Speaker 2: have premarital sex or both. This is where their bodies

184
00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,880
Speaker 2: were found, on a path off of this lover's lane. Right, Yeah,

185
00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,920
Speaker 2: a reverend Hall had been shot once through the temple

186
00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:49,240
Speaker 2: and exited the opposite temple and that was it for him.

187
00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:54,280
Speaker 2: But Eleanor Mills, his mistress, she had really been worked over.

188
00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,400
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, she was shot three times in the head

189
00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,440
Speaker 3: and her neck was cut so severely that she was

190
00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,960
Speaker 3: close to being decapitated. His shot was point blank, sort

191
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,319
Speaker 3: of you know what we'd call execution style, with a

192
00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:10,640
Speaker 3: thirty two caliber pistol.

193
00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,520
Speaker 1: And the bodies were posed.

194
00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,840
Speaker 3: Together after that, they were under a crab apple tree,

195
00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:21,360
Speaker 3: kind of posed as cuddling lovers. Her head was placed

196
00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,640
Speaker 3: on his arm, not you know, separate from her body,

197
00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,000
Speaker 3: just laid against him, and a scarf was draped over

198
00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,640
Speaker 3: her cutthroat, and he had a hat, a Panama hat

199
00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,800
Speaker 3: kind of partially covering his space. So, you know, from

200
00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,720
Speaker 3: twenty yards away or whatever, looked like a couple just

201
00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,640
Speaker 3: sort of laying there, cuddling, maybe taking a nap under

202
00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:40,080
Speaker 3: a tree.

203
00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's how they were found. But apparently as

204
00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,560
Speaker 2: Pearl and Raymond were coming upon them, they saw very

205
00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:50,040
Speaker 2: quickly that they were dead. There was one other thing

206
00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,200
Speaker 2: that wasn't noted at the time when the bodies were

207
00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,840
Speaker 2: found in nineteen twenty two, but it would be noted

208
00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,920
Speaker 2: when the case was reignited four years later in nineteen

209
00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:04,560
Speaker 2: twenty six, that that Eleanor mills tongue and vocal cords

210
00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,480
Speaker 2: had been cut out and removed. That had been missed

211
00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,520
Speaker 2: in the first autopsy, but a subsequent optopsy found that.

212
00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,200
Speaker 2: So this was the state that these bodies were found in.

213
00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:19,000
Speaker 2: I think also, the Reverend Hall's business card was found

214
00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,120
Speaker 2: propped up against his foot. I think that's the only

215
00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,120
Speaker 2: other thing we left out. Oh no, there's one other thing.

216
00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,080
Speaker 2: This is really important too. This is the clue to me.

217
00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,560
Speaker 2: You ready, Chuck, I'm ready. There were love letters that

218
00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,120
Speaker 2: Eleanor Mills had written to Edward Hall, the Reverend Hall,

219
00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,000
Speaker 2: and they had been placed all around them. So this

220
00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:43,400
Speaker 2: was a highly staged crime scene. Not just the bodies

221
00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:48,120
Speaker 2: were staged, but there were actual props involved among an

222
00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:53,000
Speaker 2: executed and a mutilated body left out in public, essentially

223
00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,680
Speaker 2: to be found almost immediately after they were killed.

224
00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the business card almost feels like, hey,

225
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,480
Speaker 3: if anyone stumbles upon this, who's not from around here?

226
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:04,520
Speaker 1: This is who this is?

227
00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,000
Speaker 2: Right? You know, yeah for sure?

228
00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:08,320
Speaker 1: Like what else could that be?

229
00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,240
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean they're sending some sort of message.

230
00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,400
Speaker 2: If that's not that, there's something else that they're sending,

231
00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:16,800
Speaker 2: Like that's a that's pretty in your face, you know.

232
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. So the bodies were found locals. You know,

233
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,079
Speaker 3: word gets around a little bit, locals starts showing up.

234
00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,560
Speaker 3: Then once the new newspapers get a hold of it,

235
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:26,160
Speaker 3: like you said.

236
00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,760
Speaker 1: Earlier, it became a big deal. And I guess this

237
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:30,439
Speaker 1: was such a.

238
00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:32,640
Speaker 3: Sensational thing at a time where this kind of thing

239
00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:36,200
Speaker 3: didn't happen much that like people really started coming to

240
00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,760
Speaker 3: this town to like just see what happened. They wanted

241
00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,680
Speaker 3: to walk on the grounds of that road and near

242
00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:45,680
Speaker 3: that farm, and they wanted to like literally take pieces

243
00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,720
Speaker 3: of that tree and dig up dirt around there as

244
00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:48,360
Speaker 3: a keepsake.

245
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:50,479
Speaker 1: Apparently, they said.

246
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:51,960
Speaker 3: You know, they were showing up at a rate of

247
00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,800
Speaker 3: a thousand cars a day. Sounds a little overblown, maybe,

248
00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,560
Speaker 3: mm hmm. But there were like vendors selling popcorn and

249
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,400
Speaker 3: balloons and you know, the dirt they were selling for

250
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,560
Speaker 3: twenty five cents a bag. It was really out of

251
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:05,760
Speaker 3: hand very quickly.

252
00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:07,800
Speaker 2: You don't. It reminded me of was like the circus

253
00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,920
Speaker 2: atmosphere that grew up when Floyd Collins was trapped in

254
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,440
Speaker 2: sand Cave. Yeah, around it was around the same time,

255
00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:15,400
Speaker 2: so people were.

256
00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:16,640
Speaker 1: Just looking for something.

257
00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty bored apparently. Yeah, so yeah, it was a

258
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,040
Speaker 2: big deal. There was a huge problem with all of

259
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:30,959
Speaker 2: those people showing up combined with incompetent an incompetent police investigation,

260
00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,360
Speaker 2: and that was that these people trod all over the

261
00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:40,240
Speaker 2: crime scene. They apparently messed with the scarf, they took

262
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,360
Speaker 2: samples from the tree. Apparently the tree was stripped of

263
00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,439
Speaker 2: everything except its trunk. After everyone was done with it.

264
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:51,440
Speaker 2: There's the guy selling the dirt. This stuff was really important, Like,

265
00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,640
Speaker 2: for example, the dirt was important because that's how they

266
00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,400
Speaker 2: would establish whether those two had been murdered in the

267
00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,400
Speaker 2: spot they were found in or somewhere else and transport

268
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,120
Speaker 2: it because the blood they found trickled into the dirt,

269
00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,480
Speaker 2: which is a sure sign that they had had been

270
00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,480
Speaker 2: killed there on the on the spot. But with people

271
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,520
Speaker 2: stealing dirt from that there goes all of that evidence too,

272
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,640
Speaker 2: So the crime scene was completely useless. And this is

273
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,480
Speaker 2: at a time when people knew, like, no, you really

274
00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:21,080
Speaker 2: need to preserve crime scenes.

275
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, I think that's a good spot for

276
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:29,800
Speaker 3: a break a A. All right, Well, since Josh said, ah,

277
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:31,440
Speaker 3: we're gonna take a little break and come back with

278
00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,120
Speaker 3: more of this grizzly murder right after this.

279
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:11,800
Speaker 1: All right, so we're back.

280
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,920
Speaker 3: When we last left you, Josh was sort of detailing

281
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,480
Speaker 3: the problems with the crime scene and people trotting about

282
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,880
Speaker 3: and messing that up, and you mentioned something about the

283
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,600
Speaker 3: police work wasn't so good. One of the issues was

284
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,200
Speaker 3: and this is something it seems like it happens a lot,

285
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,240
Speaker 3: if you believe TV and movies at least, is that

286
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,040
Speaker 3: there were various jurisdictions kind of battling for this case.

287
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,600
Speaker 3: They lived in Middlesex County, the old Phillips farm was

288
00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,080
Speaker 3: in Somerset County, like you mentioned, and initially, like you said,

289
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,200
Speaker 3: they didn't even know where their murders took place. They

290
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,920
Speaker 3: later found out that they were alive when they got

291
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,440
Speaker 3: to the farm, so they finally found that out. But

292
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,880
Speaker 3: at the beginning, you had Middlesex County in Somerset County,

293
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:54,320
Speaker 3: both saying like, no, this is my case.

294
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:55,120
Speaker 1: This is my case.

295
00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:57,920
Speaker 3: And for a while, it seems like for a pretty

296
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,320
Speaker 3: great while they had two sort of separate investigations going on,

297
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,080
Speaker 3: which never, at least in the movies, seems to be

298
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:04,680
Speaker 3: a good idea.

299
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:06,720
Speaker 2: No, not at all. Apparently the governor had to get

300
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,440
Speaker 2: involved and be like, you guys need to join forces,

301
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,280
Speaker 2: and they eventually did. But I mean, this is this

302
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,000
Speaker 2: happened for I don't know exactly how long, but long

303
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,760
Speaker 2: enough for it to be significant enough to mention, and

304
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,040
Speaker 2: this is a really important time during an investigation, the

305
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,520
Speaker 2: first several hours forty eight.

306
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,280
Speaker 1: You might even say, yeah, that's what they say.

307
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:32,520
Speaker 2: So there was a statement that was issued that Missus

308
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,760
Speaker 2: Hall issued essentially to back up a theory that had

309
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,640
Speaker 2: been posed that this was a robbery. There was a

310
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,480
Speaker 2: robbery gone wrong, and a woman named Sally Peters acted

311
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:48,160
Speaker 2: as Missus Hall's spokeswoman apparently for most of this time

312
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:50,920
Speaker 2: because Missus Hall didn't really want to be seen in public,

313
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,080
Speaker 2: so a good friends stepped up and essentially they pointed

314
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:59,200
Speaker 2: out that Missus Hall's husband, the Reverend Hall, he walked

315
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,160
Speaker 2: around with the gold watch and in his wallet he

316
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,879
Speaker 2: typically carried about fifty dollars, just like one thousand dollars today.

317
00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,440
Speaker 2: That's what he walked around adjusts.

318
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:09,919
Speaker 1: One thousand dollars of cash in their wallet.

319
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,040
Speaker 2: A guy who marries a woman for her money and

320
00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,280
Speaker 2: then runs around on her almost publicly. Yeah, probably so,

321
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:17,760
Speaker 2: And that those things were missing when they were found,

322
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,160
Speaker 2: So they had been robbed, right, But the question was

323
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:25,600
Speaker 2: was that really the motive behind this murder where Eleanor

324
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,600
Speaker 2: Mills's throat had been cut to the backbone and they've

325
00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,000
Speaker 2: been staged in some really weird ways.

326
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:32,399
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, for sure.

327
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,840
Speaker 3: So this is the Middlesex assistant prosecutor at first, because

328
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,240
Speaker 3: again they were conducting separate investigations. This guy's name was

329
00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,000
Speaker 3: John Chulan, and he came out and said, hey, wait

330
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,560
Speaker 3: a minute. Basically, I mean he couldn't come right out

331
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,280
Speaker 3: and accused her, but he was basically like, hey, there's

332
00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,199
Speaker 3: no information to back this up. Kind of listen to

333
00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:55,960
Speaker 3: our statements and maybe not the ones from the deceased family.

334
00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,119
Speaker 3: I'm sure he had to couch that because she was

335
00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,680
Speaker 3: from a wealthy family, but he basically said, hey, there's

336
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,080
Speaker 3: no evidence to back this up, and we think that

337
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,040
Speaker 3: and this to me is a little hinky, but he said,

338
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,840
Speaker 3: if it was a robber, he wouldn't have been using

339
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,320
Speaker 3: a thirty two. He would have been using a larger caliber,

340
00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,040
Speaker 3: which to me doesn't really make much sense.

341
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,240
Speaker 2: He would have been using a forty four magnum, the

342
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,879
Speaker 2: most powerful handgun in the world. Do you feel lucky.

343
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,679
Speaker 2: So there was another theory too that I hadn't heard of,

344
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,520
Speaker 2: but kind of makes sense. Apparently the Klan had recently

345
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:35,560
Speaker 2: become highly active in the area around that time, and

346
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:40,399
Speaker 2: they were known for severely punishing moral transgressions like affairs.

347
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, but not their own, no.

348
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,560
Speaker 2: Of course, not so if they had come upon or

349
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,200
Speaker 2: had targeted these two, because I mean, if this was

350
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,560
Speaker 2: an open secret and this guy's a prominent member of

351
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,199
Speaker 2: the community, they could have been a target for the

352
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,160
Speaker 2: Klan to punish somebody like that. So that was a

353
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,719
Speaker 2: decent theory, but it didn't really go too far, at

354
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:03,520
Speaker 2: least at first.

355
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, And we mentioned this next one just

356
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,800
Speaker 3: because it was has been mentioned, but it really also

357
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,840
Speaker 3: went nowhere. But very briefly, there were apparently there were

358
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,400
Speaker 3: two Italians who had showed up in New Brunswick and.

359
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:18,280
Speaker 1: They had revolvers.

360
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,760
Speaker 3: Like that was known that there were these two Italian

361
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 3: guys who no one knew and they had guns. But

362
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,960
Speaker 3: that was just a very quick sort of They had

363
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:27,320
Speaker 3: nothing to do with the kind of deal.

364
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,960
Speaker 2: For sure. That's just what you did in nineteen twenty

365
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,840
Speaker 2: two when somebody turned up murdered. How many Italians came

366
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:33,200
Speaker 2: into town?

367
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:34,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

368
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:40,400
Speaker 2: So the cops were like, okay, like we can't possibly

369
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:45,240
Speaker 2: like train our sights on on the wealthy widow and

370
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,959
Speaker 2: her family. Let's see who else we can blame to

371
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,520
Speaker 2: just basically make the public, let us make this go away, right. Yeah,

372
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,639
Speaker 2: they were just looking for somebody to pin it on,

373
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,640
Speaker 2: and they turned their attention to the two people, Pearl

374
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,840
Speaker 2: Balmber and ra Schneider, who had run over to a

375
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,959
Speaker 2: farmhouse and told a woman we just found some bodies.

376
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 2: Called the police. Right when they found the bodies. They

377
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,840
Speaker 2: were like, that seems a little fishy. We're going to

378
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 2: start looking at you guys, because you're probably just providing

379
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:17,200
Speaker 2: grown alibis who would possibly call in finding the bodies

380
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:18,680
Speaker 2: of a murder they just committed.

381
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:20,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

382
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,719
Speaker 3: So they discovered like hey, they were also on the

383
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,160
Speaker 3: farm that night, because this was remember two days later

384
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,680
Speaker 3: in the morning when they called it in, but they said, hey,

385
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 3: they were also there that night. A couple of weeks

386
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,160
Speaker 3: after that, those two and then a couple of other

387
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,360
Speaker 3: friends of theirs that were also with them that night,

388
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,399
Speaker 3: a guy named Clifford Hayes and a fifteen year old

389
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,080
Speaker 3: kid named Leon Kaufman. They were all four brought in

390
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,920
Speaker 3: for what sounds like a straight twenty four hours of questioning,

391
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,000
Speaker 3: which is always very suspicious, you know, when you try

392
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,240
Speaker 3: and get someone to their weakest point. So they signed

393
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,040
Speaker 3: some weird false confession. So they wore them out questioning

394
00:20:58,080 --> 00:20:58,720
Speaker 3: for a full.

395
00:20:58,600 --> 00:20:59,400
Speaker 1: Day and night.

396
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,880
Speaker 3: And at the end of this Ray Schneider, the original

397
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 3: guy who reported it with his young girlfriend, signed a

398
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:12,800
Speaker 3: statement that said, hey, around midnight that night, me and

399
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,720
Speaker 3: Clifford Hayes, my buddy, came across a couple of people.

400
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,480
Speaker 1: Sitting on the ground near that farmhouse.

401
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,880
Speaker 3: I thought it was my girlfriend and her father, and

402
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,120
Speaker 3: I had been looking for her. I was pretty jealous,

403
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 3: and so Hayes shot both of them, and it sounds

404
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 3: like it might have been like a favor to him.

405
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 3: None of this really adds up, because it wasn't like

406
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 3: he had found her with some other guy and he

407
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,440
Speaker 3: was angry and his friends like, I'll get even for you.

408
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,719
Speaker 3: None of this really makes much sense to me at least.

409
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 2: Well though only thing I saw was that I saw

410
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 2: somewhere somebody said that they believed that Pearl was being

411
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,480
Speaker 2: molested by her father. That still doesn't make sense why

412
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:54,879
Speaker 2: she would be shot as well.

413
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's all very hinky, but Raych Schneider

414
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 3: basically in the statement at least said we realized it

415
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 3: was not them. We ran away, and so my girlfriend

416
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 3: and this other kid, Leon Kaufman also said, yeah, you know,

417
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,679
Speaker 3: parts of this are true. And Schneider did have a gun.

418
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 3: He also had a pocket knife, and so in the

419
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 3: end they arrested Clifford Hayes and charged him with the murderers.

420
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 2: They did, and immediately the press, who was really paying

421
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 2: attention to this and the public who were reading these

422
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 2: stories were like, are you guys dumb? Like are you kidding?

423
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 2: This is who you've come up with? There was it

424
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 2: didn't take into account again, so does that mean that

425
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 2: Clifford Hayes, after his friend Rach Schneider ran off his

426
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,879
Speaker 2: friend who he'd taken it upon himself to execute the

427
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,640
Speaker 2: man's girlfriend and her father. Yeah, that he went over

428
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 2: and was like, well, I better almost cut this woman's

429
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 2: head off and see these bodies like this. But every

430
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 2: single theory is just dumb because they can't take into

431
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 2: account the most important clue in this whole, this whole

432
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 2: murder letters case, the love letters.

433
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:12,439
Speaker 1: Yeah.

434
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,719
Speaker 2: How would this guy, Clifford Hayes have any access to

435
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 2: the love letters between those two from Mills to Hall?

436
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 2: How would they have had access to that? How would

437
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 2: the clan have had access to that? How would somebody

438
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,719
Speaker 2: who was robbing them and the robbery went wrong, how

439
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 2: would they have access to that? Those are the clues

440
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 2: so much so that I'm quite certain that the people

441
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,199
Speaker 2: who killed this this couple were like, oh that was

442
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 2: so stupid afterward, like why did they put the letters down?

443
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,679
Speaker 2: They luckily got away with it, But that was to me,

444
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 2: that's just that's there you go, there's your answer right there.

445
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:49,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally.

446
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 3: I mean, it's all just so fishy and ludicrous that

447
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 3: they arrested this kid. So the you know, those real

448
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 3: backlash back then, even like you said, everybody like no,

449
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 3: one really believed what was going on, and the story

450
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 3: had all these holes in it. There were a couple

451
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 3: of other like sort of weird details that came out

452
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 3: of the subplot that didn't really lend itself to solving it.

453
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 3: But the press basically uncovered some stuff that Schneider who

454
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 3: was dating, you know, the fifteen year old Pearl, he

455
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 3: was actually married Clifford Hayes, who they arrested for the murder.

456
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:29,920
Speaker 3: Supposedly he had dated Pearl at one point. But you know, again,

457
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 3: none of this made any kind of sense at all.

458
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 3: Within a few days, Ray Schneider was like, oh, yeah,

459
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 3: you know what, that's not true. So they sentenced him

460
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 3: to a term in a reformatory for making false statements.

461
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 3: And then young Pearl was sent to the House of

462
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 3: the Good Shepherd for Wayward Girls in Newark, which I'm

463
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 3: sure was.

464
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 2: Just a great place. I'm sure too sarcasm, Yeah, for sure.

465
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 2: And then Ray Schneider being sentenced for his false statement.

466
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 2: So he had a coerced state beaten out of him,

467
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 2: and then he gets sentenced for giving it.

468
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh was he beaten.

469
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 2: I'm sure he was. We're talking nineteen twenty two, and

470
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 2: the police are trying to get a confession over a

471
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: twenty four hour period of questioning out of this guy

472
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 2: who signs a false confession.

473
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 3: I would say, I just want to make sure no

474
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 3: family members of those cops comes forward and soues you

475
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 3: for sure.

476
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 2: But you saw as well as I did in People

477
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 2: magazine that they said it too.

478
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 1: All right, shall we go on or shall we take

479
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 1: another break? Maybe go on a little more.

480
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's go on a little more.

481
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 1: All right, take it away, Okay.

482
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 2: So finally, the public it's just the police who are

483
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 2: studiously avoiding looking at Francis Hall, her two brothers, and

484
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: eventually her cousin, all of whom would be implicated in

485
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,880
Speaker 2: this crime. It was just the cops and the prosecutors

486
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: who were trying not to look at them. The rest

487
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 2: of the public was like, I'm pretty sure we have

488
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 2: we know who did this. Why don't you start looking

489
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 2: at them? And eventually the public pressure about it. Couldn't

490
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 2: couldn't just be ignored. So the cops finally started looking

491
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: at missus Hall, and they brought it in for questioning once.

492
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,479
Speaker 2: Apparently it was a very gentle line of questioning. They

493
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 2: were very deferential, very naturally people also started looking at

494
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 2: James Mills. He was the other jilted lover in this

495
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 2: In this case, he had a pretty good alibi. Apparently

496
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 2: either one of his hobbies or his side gig was woodworking.

497
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 2: He was seen around the time of the murders at

498
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 2: home and then for the next couple hours during the

499
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 2: time when these this pair was definitely murdered, So he

500
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 2: he had a pretty good aliby. Multiple neighbors saying, yeah

501
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 2: he was. He was at home woodworking at the time.

502
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's in the in the TV show when

503
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 3: they're at the end when they were accounting how it

504
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 3: was done.

505
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 1: This is when you see the shot of like the

506
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: buzzsall going in an empty room.

507
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 2: Right, it's like a mannequin rigged.

508
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 1: Like pushing it so it actually sounds like it's cutting.

509
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 2: That's right. That's like the nineteen twenty two version of

510
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:07,239
Speaker 2: somebody pre recording the security camera footage so that you

511
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 2: can't see what they're doing when they commit the crime.

512
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: That's right. The data is somehow scrambled.

513
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I'll tell you what, even that couldn't fool

514
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 2: Jessica Fletcher. There's at least one episode where that was used,

515
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 2: he was that again, I murder? She wrote, that's right.

516
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 2: Oh you want to hear something awful? Sure, So I

517
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 2: was watching Murder, she wrote on over the air antenna

518
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: to be expected. There's a lot of ads, and they're

519
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 2: usually pretty crummy ads. Yeah, but remember I was complaining

520
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 2: about that stupid Burger King adh. Oh yeah, well I

521
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 2: finally moved away from the over the air antenna viewing

522
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 2: and just started watching I think on Amazon.

523
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 3: I love that you you joined the twenty first century.

524
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 2: Exactly, but the uh the For a while, I was like, great,

525
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 2: I left the Burger King ad behind. Nope, it very

526
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 2: recently popped up again on Ama.

527
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: I haven't heard it in a while.

528
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna I'm not going to recount it for you.

529
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you what I'm not doing is watching murder,

530
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: she wrote. If that's the trigger, yeah, it's pretty bad.

531
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 2: But that's how much I like murder, she wrote, I'm

532
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 2: willing to suck it up. You know, Jessica bet your

533
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,479
Speaker 2: solving crimes. That's pretty catchy.

534
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, all right, so where were we?

535
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 2: They started looking at missus Hall. She didn't have an alibi.

536
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 2: It turns out.

537
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 3: That's right, So they brought her in, like you said,

538
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 3: for some pretty gentle questioning. She said that on Friday

539
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 3: morning she was worried because her husband wasn't home, so

540
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 3: she got together with her brother Willie, and they started

541
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 3: looking for him. They visited the church at first to

542
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 3: look for him, and then later they went to her house,

543
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 3: well not her house, but the victim's house. They went

544
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 3: to the Mills house. Nobody was there either, and they said, yeah.

545
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 3: Initially they said, we went there because, you know, we

546
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 3: thought he might have been visiting with someone who was ill.

547
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 3: And then later on that story changed to, oh, no,

548
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 3: we went by there because we knew that the church

549
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 3: keys were there as well. So her story is already

550
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 3: changing out of the gate.

551
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I mean, if an entire prosecutors offices office

552
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 2: times two, two different counties, prosecutors and police departments are

553
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 2: being deferential to you and not investigating you because you're wealthy,

554
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: at least have the decency to keep your story straight

555
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 2: to not make them look that ridiculous.

556
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, agreed.

557
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 2: The upshot is this, Missus Hall's alibi is her brother Willie,

558
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 2: who lived with Missus Hall and Reverend Hall, and he

559
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 2: was a suspect too, So if your alibi is another suspect,

560
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 2: that's not a very good alibi. And they were also

561
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 2: they were also prowling around about two thirty am, and

562
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 2: no one could corroborate that they were out looking for

563
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 2: Reverend Hall at two thirty am, about the time the

564
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 2: murders took place exactly.

565
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 3: So again she was still insistent that they had a

566
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 3: great marriage. These love letters are fake. The cops start

567
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 3: sniffing her other brother off the case, who doesn't live

568
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:08,719
Speaker 3: with them.

569
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: This guy's name was.

570
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 3: Henry, and he was like, no, no, I got an alibi.

571
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 3: I was fishing in Lavallette. It's about fifty miles away.

572
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 3: There's no way I could have been there. And you

573
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 3: know what, I was even fishing with the mayor of Lavalette.

574
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 3: And the mayor stepped forward and said, correct, So.

575
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 2: He's holding a briefcase with money coming out of the seams.

576
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 3: So he has an alibi, like a stated alibi. I'm

577
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 3: not sure if that's the legal term. But I didn't

578
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 3: see that there was any other other like proof that

579
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 3: he was out fishing. But he said I was fishing,

580
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 3: and there was a witness with me. There were a

581
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 3: few witnesses, and it seems like the key witness to

582
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 3: this all is the woman who actually witnessed the murder,

583
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 3: as it turns out.

584
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, a woman named Jane Gibson who would come to

585
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: be known as the pig woman. That's just what the

586
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 2: press called her across the board, because she was a

587
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 2: pig farmer in the area of the road where the

588
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: bodies were found. Yeah, and she had cause to be

589
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 2: awake at two thirty am. Apparently there have been some

590
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 2: thefts of her crops, probably cops who'd come and try

591
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: to snatch her crops, and so she was awake, waiting

592
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: essentially for the thieves to come back. She said that

593
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 2: while she was lying in wait, she heard a sound.

594
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 2: She went to investigate, and that she saw Missus Hall,

595
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 2: her two brothers, and Missus Hall's cousin Henry another Henry

596
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: carrying out these murders.

597
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, like she said, I saw this happen. But the

598
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 3: prosecutors are like nah, her story keeps kind of changing too,

599
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 3: and they all have Alibis stated Alibis. So a grand

600
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 3: jury convenes in November of that year, Like, what should

601
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 3: we do here about indicting this family? And I say

602
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 3: we tackle that question or answer rather right after another

603
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 3: break eh satisfaction.

604
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 2: So chuck where we left off. He had said that

605
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 2: a grand jury had been convened, right, that's right. And

606
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 2: it turned out that the grand jury, I think they

607
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: took five days before they said nope, we're not going

608
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 2: to hand on any indictments. So it seemed that the

609
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 2: probably the likeliest suspects, Francis Hall, her two brothers, and

610
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 2: her cousin were now off the hook. And we should

611
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 2: say also one of the things about her brother that's

612
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 2: going to come into play. One of her brothers, Willie.

613
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 2: He lived at home, like we said, with the Reverend

614
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: Hall and missus Hall. And the reason why it seems

615
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: is because he was at least understood at the time,

616
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 2: is kind of slow, as they would put it. Sometimes

617
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 2: you see in modern retellings of it that he's considered

618
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: developmentally disabled. That does not seem to be the case.

619
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: It seems like he probably was neurodiverse in some way,

620
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 2: shape or form. But he was also quite sharp too.

621
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 2: He was known to read books on metallurgy. He was

622
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 2: quite sociable. He would be high functioning you would say today,

623
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 2: but at the time he seemed to be if this

624
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 2: was a group of murderers, as family murderers, he would

625
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: be targeted as like the weak link that you would

626
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 2: go after. But regardless, it didn't matter because nineteen twenty

627
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: two went out with these four let off the hook

628
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 2: because the grand jury didn't indict. How about that?

629
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: That's right?

630
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 3: And right out after that happened, the good missus Hall

631
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 3: left for Italy. So nothing at all suspicious about that.

632
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 3: I think you're not getting on a plane to Europe.

633
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: I think you can make a case either way that

634
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 2: you know. I just wanted to get away from the

635
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 2: whole thing too.

636
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 3: I said, plan would that have been a just a

637
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 3: notion liner at the time, Okay, wait to go, so

638
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 3: savory emails everybody.

639
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: I'm speaking of the Martyn parlance. So in December.

640
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 3: They said, basically, you know, now that all the all

641
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 3: the Gulkers are out of here and all the attentions

642
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 3: dying down, we can get down some real investigating and

643
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 3: figure out who did this. A year later, the New

644
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 3: York Times followed up on the anniversary. We're like, yeah,

645
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 3: so you got down the business, what'd you find out?

646
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:45,240
Speaker 3: And they're like, oh, what.

647
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 2: No progress? Whatsoever?

648
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 3: It?

649
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, So that's how it went for four more years,

650
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 2: and then out of nowhere, in a completely unrelated divorce case,

651
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 2: the husband of a woman named Louise Geist, who had

652
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 2: been a maid at the Hall's home during the time

653
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 2: of the murders. In the divorce proceedings he was assassinating

654
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 2: his ex wife seemed to be ex wife's character, saying

655
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: that she had been involved in the Hall Mills murder

656
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 2: and had been paid five thousand smackeroos to be to

657
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 2: keep quiet by Missus Hall and her brothers. Yeah, and

658
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:28,240
Speaker 2: that she knew all about it. And somehow, I guess

659
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 2: that got out to the press, and William Randolph Hearst

660
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 2: Daily Mirror assigned a reporter to look back into the case,

661
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: and it just blew it right back onto the front

662
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 2: pages of papers across the country.

663
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, such that the state of New Jersey could no

664
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 3: longer just keep ignoring this.

665
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: So Governor A.

666
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 3: Harry Moore said, oh God, all right, let's reopen this case.

667
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: Exactly at this.

668
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 3: Point, the grand jury does come back and indict Francis Hall,

669
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 3: her brothers, William Henry, and her cousin Henry. They were

670
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 3: all four arrested. Missus Hall for her part, was released

671
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 3: on bail fifteen grand. A lot of dough at the time, Yeah,

672
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 3: still a lot of dough. I always say that the

673
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 3: men were held without bail, and at this point, this

674
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 3: is four years later, they don't take care of evidence

675
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 3: like they do now. A lot of the evidence was gone,

676
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 3: but they did find some new clues. There was another

677
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 3: adulterous couple in the church. There were probably dozens of them,

678
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 3: because that's just how that kind.

679
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: Of thing goes. But this one other adulter couple.

680
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 3: There was a guy named Ralph Gorsline and a woman

681
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 3: named Katherine Rostell, and they were on Lover's Lane that night.

682
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 3: A private detective came forward and said, hey, Ralph admitted

683
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 3: that he heard these shots and saw I think cousin.

684
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:48,760
Speaker 1: Henry or was this brother Henry?

685
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:50,280
Speaker 2: That was brother Henry?

686
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 3: Okay, brother Henry, who apparently swore him to secrecy. Ralph

687
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 3: Gorsline later came out and denied having accused brother Henry,

688
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 3: but he did confirm that he and his mistress, Catherine Rastell,

689
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 3: had heard these four gunshots, heard some low voices and

690
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 3: a woman screaming. And the reason that I didn't come

691
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 3: out before was because obviously I didn't want to like

692
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 3: have my affair busted. But in nineteen twenty six, four

693
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 3: years later, she had talked, his mistress had talked, so

694
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 3: he was like, well, I guess the cat's out of

695
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 3: the bag, so I'm gonna say what happened too. And

696
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 3: his wife said, great, let's get a divorce.

697
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. And again he had gone to this private detective

698
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty two because his conscience had gotten to him.

699
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: But I think he was basically saying he was saying

700
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: all the stuff that he eventually said in nineteen twenty

701
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 2: six to get the detective to go to the cops

702
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 2: and say, hey, this anonymous source did this, But it

703
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 2: didn't pan out like that. But nineteen twenty six, they

704
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,879
Speaker 2: were just uncovering stuff left and right. Remember I said

705
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 2: that they exhumed Missus Mills and did another autopsy and

706
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,240
Speaker 2: that's when they found that her tongue in vocal cords

707
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 2: had been caught out. So like, this was a serious

708
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 2: investigation that was launched again in nineteen twenty six, probably

709
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 2: a lot more serious than the one that was carried

710
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 2: out in nineteen twenty two. And another clue that turned

711
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:11,919
Speaker 2: up or another source that turned up was a guy

712
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:17,280
Speaker 2: named Paul Hamborskey. He was a minister also in New Brunswick,

713
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 2: and he was friendly with Reverend Hall. And Paul Amborski

714
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 2: came forward and said, hey, I actually had a conversation

715
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 2: with Reverend Hall basically a month before he was murdered,

716
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 2: and in it he said that my wife has gotten

717
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 2: really cool lately and has turned into a different woman,

718
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 2: and quote, I am very much afraid that she will

719
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 2: do me bodily harm. And he explained it was because

720
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 2: of this affair, and that he had no intention of

721
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 2: giving up Eleanor Mills and that they would probably run

722
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: off together pretty soon. This was a month before Edward

723
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 2: Hall was murdered that a minister came forward and said

724
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 2: this is what he said to me.

725
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he also said that her brother Henry threatened

726
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 3: me because everyone knew about this affair. And so he

727
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 3: comes out with this very you know, sort of key evidence.

728
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 3: And right before the nineteen twenty six trial started, this

729
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 3: Paul Hamborski guy just sort of disappeared.

730
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:14,959
Speaker 1: He left town.

731
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 3: He didn't disappear like disappeared disappear, but he left town

732
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 3: pretty quickly. And there was a state senator named Alexander Simpson,

733
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 3: who was acting as special prosecutor for the case, and

734
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 3: he said, this Amborski guy's loans dried up at the bank,

735
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 3: and the banker said, you've been a fool to get

736
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 3: mixed up in this hall's mill case.

737
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:36,280
Speaker 2: The banker was Charles Bronson.

738
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 1: No, that would have been You've been the fool to

739
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: get mixed up in this hole's middle case.

740
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 2: Very nice. I just said that because I really want

741
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 2: to hear you redo it as Charles Bronson.

742
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: It's just all dirty dealing basically, Like it's really clear.

743
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this family was more than wealthy and

744
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,399
Speaker 2: powerful enough to ruin a person, make sure that they

745
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 2: didn't have any line of income, or just make life

746
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 2: miserable for them to where they did want to just

747
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 2: get out of town before they could testify. So this

748
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 2: trial happens like they finally have enough evidence that a

749
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 2: grand jury this time pretty quickly handed off indictments and

750
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 2: so Francis and her two brothers and cousin are indicted

751
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 2: for murder. And right when word got out that they

752
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 2: were about to be tried again, all the journalists came back.

753
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 2: I saw an estimate that they filed twelve million plus

754
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 2: words cumulatively. It wasn't just one guy during the twenty

755
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 2: three day trial, that's how many words were written on this.

756
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 2: It was everywhere.

757
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean just just hundreds and hundreds of people

758
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 3: all of a sudden in town. And the public of

759
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 3: course is like, hey, you know what we care the

760
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 3: most about is like reading these love letters, like Josh

761
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,240
Speaker 3: Clark will when they say that's the key piece of evidence,

762
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 3: and like what was in these things? And in one

763
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 3: of them? And this is great? Who helped us Livia

764
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 3: with this? Yeah, she dug up some of these letters,

765
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 3: Darling Wonderheart. I just want to crush you for two hours.

766
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 3: I want to see Friday night alone by our road

767
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 3: where we can let out unrestrained, that universe of joy

768
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 3: and happiness we call ours. And he signed it DTL

769
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,399
Speaker 3: for Dinah troyer Liepaba, which is German for thy true lover,

770
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 3: and Mills called him Babykins. So this is my only

771
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 3: joke about this is I want to see the sitcom

772
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 3: Wonderheart and Babykins like very soon on my television.

773
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 2: Do me a favorite? Will you read that quote as

774
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 2: Charles Bronson?

775
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: Really sure, Darling Wonderhart, I just want to crush you

776
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 1: for two hours. I want to see you Friday night

777
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 1: alone by our road where we can let out unrestrained

778
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: that the universe of joy and happiness that we call

779
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: ours beautiful Chuck, bravo, man, little more sinisters on that.

780
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 2: If it wouldn't make the levels going to the red,

781
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,879
Speaker 2: I would clap loudly for you right now. So, yes,

782
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,720
Speaker 2: this is the kind of humiliation that Francis Hall is enduring.

783
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 2: She's sitting in court because again she's on trial. People

784
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 2: are reading that was just one. They were reading a

785
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 2: bunch of different love letters in open court. And there

786
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 2: were more witnesses that came forward. There were like they

787
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 2: were poking holes in people's alibis from the year back.

788
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 2: So they brought a new witnesses to undermine the truthfulness

789
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 2: of their original witnesses, and so and so on and

790
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 2: so forth. And the maid Louise Geist, she was brought

791
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 2: to the stand and she said, no, my ex husband's

792
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: a big fat liar. But I'll tell you what. Willie,

793
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 2: who lived with the Halls and whose servant I was

794
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,240
Speaker 2: as well, he told me the day after the murder,

795
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 2: but the day before the bodies were discovered that something

796
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,720
Speaker 2: terrible happened last night. So Willy shouldn't have known anything

797
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:02,359
Speaker 2: about something terrible happening last night, unless it was that

798
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 2: his sister had lost it solitaire, which was the one

799
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 2: alibi that Louise Geist could give Francis Hall for that night. Solitaire. Yeah,

800
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 2: it was her alibi.

801
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 3: So was this Louise Geist was involved and probably got

802
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 3: paid off, and she was trying to just pin it

803
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 3: on Willie. This possibly neurodivergent, you know, younger brother.

804
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 2: That certainly seems the case to me.

805
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, I mean that's how I took it.

806
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 2: That's pretty that's pretty whole scratch that her ex husband

807
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 2: comes up with in divorce court, you know. Yeah. So

808
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 2: again though, the star witness was Jane Gibson, the pig woman, right.

809
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, she and this is super dramatic. She came forward,

810
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 3: she was in late stages of cancer and they brought

811
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 3: her in on a stretcher into court. She's speaking in

812
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 3: a whisper basically like just hanging in there to get

813
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 3: this testimony out. So her story was after nine o'clock

814
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 3: on that day, her dog started barking again.

815
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: She was worried about thieves stealing her crops.

816
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 3: So she gets on her old ginny, rides out to

817
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 3: the field, sees people fighting under that crab apple tree.

818
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: Here's a woman yell, don't don't, don't Henry. She hears

819
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 1: a shot, a gunshot, saw one of the men fall.

820
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: She flees.

821
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 3: She gets the heck out of there, of course, and

822
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 3: then on her way out of there, like running, she

823
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 3: hears a woman screaming again.

824
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: Three more gunshots.

825
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 3: And they were like, can you point out are those

826
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 3: people in the courtroom today basically, and she said yes,

827
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 3: and she pointed at missus Hall, her two brothers and

828
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 3: her cousin, and they said, oh, well, you know what,

829
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 3: she's the big lady, like, don't believe what she says.

830
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 2: Basically, well, supposedly her own mother. Jing Gibson's own mother

831
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: was in the in the courtroom, apparently wringing her handkerchief,

832
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 2: watching her daughter give testimony, saying she's lying, she's lying,

833
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,879
Speaker 2: so she people didn't put much stock into Jene Gibson's testimony.

834
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: Maybe she said she's dying.

835
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 2: May maybe so well, this is essentially the prosecution's case.

836
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 2: They presented Jane Gibson again. She basically said, I saw

837
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 2: those four murder these two people, at least in silhouette,

838
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 2: and then I saw the four clearly. Then it was

839
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 2: time for the accused to start taking the stand. And

840
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 2: apparently Missus Hall was so composed during her time on

841
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 2: the stand giving testimony that the papers dubbed her the

842
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 2: iron widow. Yeah, and she still said, I never suspected

843
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 2: my husband of infidelity, and I was really nervous when

844
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 2: he disappeared. That's why my brother and I went out

845
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 2: that very night to look for him. And again, she's

846
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 2: in part probably saving face, but now at this point

847
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 2: she's trying to not give anyone a motive that she

848
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 2: might have had for killing him, which would clearly be

849
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,720
Speaker 2: in such a passionate murder something like infidelity, right.

850
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

851
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 2: But despite her, I think everybody kind of expected her

852
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:58,959
Speaker 2: to be good on the stand. You remember I said

853
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 2: that they had kind of suppose that Willy was going

854
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 2: to be the weak link. The prosecutors were just chomping

855
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 2: at the bit to get to him. They were just

856
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 2: gonna work him over on the stand. And apparently Willy

857
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,439
Speaker 2: held his own like nobody's business and did so well

858
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 2: on the stand that essentially he got himself and his

859
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 2: siblings and cousin Off. That's how well he did on

860
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 2: the stand. He was the one who basically got him acquitted.

861
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there it is. They got acquitted on December third,

862
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:33,280
Speaker 3: nineteen twenty six. After that, the defendants minus brother Henry, sued.

863
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 1: The Mirror for libel.

864
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 3: It was settled out of court, and we don't know

865
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 3: how much money was exchange hands, if any. Seems like

866
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 3: there probably was some, and it was never brought to

867
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 3: trial again. It never came before a criminal court again.

868
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 3: Missus Hall went, you know, back to doing her things.

869
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 3: She's doing charity work at the church, did not you know,

870
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 3: aside from that, didn't really socialize. A lot died in

871
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 3: nineteen forty two, and you know, we look back now,

872
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,720
Speaker 3: is like it seems fairly obvious to us what happened,

873
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 3: even though famous civil rights attorney William Kunstler wrote a

874
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 3: book in nineteen sixty four called The Minister in the

875
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,240
Speaker 3: Choir Singer, where he supposes that it was the KKK,

876
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 3: but there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence

877
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 3: about that at all.

878
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 2: No, he even says this is all circumstantial, and apparently

879
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 2: there's no account of anyone actually being murdered when they

880
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 2: were punished by the KKK for something like having an affair.

881
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:29,399
Speaker 1: So it's pretty pretty spankings.

882
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 2: Yes, So what about The Great Gatsby, Chuck, We all

883
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 2: know that you read that article as well as I did, and.

884
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 3: Right people people wonder if this was, you know, one

885
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 3: of the stories that inspired The Great Gatsby.

886
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: It was in nineteen twenty two.

887
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 3: I think Gatsby came out in twenty five, so before

888
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 3: the actual trial. But f Scott Fitzgerald and Zelda we

889
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 3: do know that they followed that case. They were pretty

890
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 3: interested in it, and there's a lot of differences, So

891
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:00,080
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it may have just been one

892
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 3: of those sort of launching off points where yeah, it's like, oh,

893
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 3: this is a cool idea, and then just you know,

894
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 3: really just went with it in a fictional sense.

895
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, People magazine pointed out something that I thought

896
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 2: was a good connection between the two in the story,

897
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 2: the working class woman who's having an affair with I

898
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 2: can't remember his name, Gatsby's rival. Her death is essentially

899
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 2: like ignored because she's not upper class, she's working class. Yea,

900
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 2: the same thing happened to Eleanor Mills, Like her death

901
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 2: does not. Aside from the grizzly state of her body,

902
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 2: people did not pay much attention to that. It was

903
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 2: all about this wealthy woman and her wealthy husband. And

904
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 2: in the end, the wealthy people got to go on

905
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 2: with their lives while the dead working class victim is

906
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 2: just largely forgotten.

907
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 1: Yeah for sure.

908
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 2: Well that's it for the Hall Mills murder Chuck good pick,

909
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 2: however we got it. Also, just want to shout out

910
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 2: the Yale Review, Howard Harold Scheckter's article mister local History project,

911
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,879
Speaker 2: Mary S. Hartman wrote a paper, and then also our

912
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 2: Ownlivia who helped us with this too. And since I

913
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 2: just rattled lot some sources, as everyone knows, I just

914
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 2: triggered listener mail.

915
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:12,720
Speaker 1: This is about smoking.

916
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:14,879
Speaker 3: We did one on the cigarette and this is from

917
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 3: Sue and Melbourne, Australia. Hey guys, I really just like

918
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 3: smoking here in Melbourne, Australia. A pack of twenty cigarettes

919
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 3: and that is individual second cigarettes, not twenty packs like

920
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:27,760
Speaker 3: a pack of cigarette.

921
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, twenty Lucy's costs fifty eight ninety nine.

922
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 2: I know I saw that, and it's just I'm still

923
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:34,879
Speaker 2: astounded by it.

924
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 3: A pack of twenty five calls sixty two ninety nine

925
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 3: and a carton of ten packs is four hundred and

926
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 3: sixty nine dollars. If a smoker smokes a pack of

927
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 3: twenty per day, the cost per week is three hundred

928
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 3: and seventy one dollars per week, or per annum close

929
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 3: to twenty grand. At a cup of coffee from a

930
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,280
Speaker 3: shop Monday to Friday at five or day per anim

931
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,840
Speaker 3: thirteen hundred bucks. Victoria has the most expensive cigarettes in

932
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 3: the world. Guys, yet there there's always a crowd of

933
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 3: puffing smokers outside every building. Instead of sucking filth into

934
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 3: the lungs, a person saves the money and overseas holiday

935
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 3: every year would be possible. Yes, I was a bookkeeper.

936
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:13,800
Speaker 3: Love the show that is from Sue.

937
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you might be all there saying, well, the

938
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 2: Australian dollar is less than the US dollar. I just

939
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 2: calculated it. A four hundred and sixty nine dollars carton

940
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 2: of cigarettes in Australia is still a three hundred dollars

941
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 2: carton of cigarettes in the US. So that's amazing.

942
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a lot of dough to actively die earlier.

943
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks a lot. Who was that again, Sue? Thanks

944
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,320
Speaker 2: a lot Sue, and if you want to be like Sue,

945
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 2: you can send us an email. Send it off to

946
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 2: stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

947
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

948
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:52,359
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

949
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:54,320
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.