1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Frye. Before we start today's episode, 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: one more time, we are going to do a live 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: show at the Indiana Historical Society. This is on Friday, 6 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: July nineteenth, twenty twenty four. So if you are listening 7 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: to this podcast way in the future, twenty twenty four, 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: that's the year we're talking about. This is going to 9 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: be at the Eugene and Maryland Glick Indiana History Center 10 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: again July nineteenth, twenty twenty four. Holly and I did 11 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: a show there back before the pandemic started, had a 12 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: great time. It's been a very long time since we've 13 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: done a lot of live shows, so it's nice to 14 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: be working toward doing some again. Yes, indeed, this will 15 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: be from seven thirty to eight thirty. There will also 16 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: be a meet and greet before the show, so folks 17 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: can either buy a ticket to the show or a 18 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: ticket that includes that meet and greet. And to get 19 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: more information, you can go to www dot Indianahistory dot 20 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: org slash events. And now we will move on to 21 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 1: the actual episode. Back in twenty seventeen, when everyone in 22 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: the world, it seemed like, was talking about the solar 23 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: eclipse that was about to be visible from North America. 24 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: Holly put together an episode on a handful of eclipses 25 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: in history, and I don't think it really entered our 26 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: minds at the time that in almost seven years after 27 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: that there would be another total solar eclipse visible from 28 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: North America, and that it would also, like that earlier one, 29 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: be happening on a day when a new episode of 30 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: our show comes out. For my pot art, pretty much 31 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: the minute the twenty seventeen eclipse was over, the group 32 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: of folks that I was traveling with started talking about 33 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: where we should go to see the next one. Uh. 34 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: I definitely though, was not thinking, hmm, what should we 35 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: do on the podcast for the next solar eclipse? Uh? 36 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: Did not enter my mind. But here we are, solar 37 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: eclipse happening today on the day this podcast comes out. 38 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: So I found another eclipse related topic. On May twenty eighth, 39 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: in the year five eighty five BCE, there was a 40 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: total solar eclipse during a battle between the kingdoms of 41 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: Media and Lydia, and this eclipse had been predicted by 42 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,959 Speaker 1: Thailees of my leadas, and it led to the ends 43 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: of both the battle and the war that the battle 44 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 1: was a part of. Except turns out there is debate 45 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: about every single thing that I just said that has 46 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: been going on for centuries. We're going to be talking 47 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: about these events and the debate around them. Also, according 48 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: to Herodotus, one of the reasons that this battle was 49 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: being fought involved a particularly horrific incident of cannibalism. So 50 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: just heads up on that. The details surrounding the eclipse 51 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: and the battle aren't the only subjects of debate in 52 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: today's episode. Another is Stalley's of Militis himself. There are 53 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: lots and lots of references to him in ancient writing, 54 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: but we have no contemporary sources about his life. All 55 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: the references we have on him first appeared in writing 56 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: much much later. Let's just start with when he lived. 57 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: One source on that is Diogenes Lartius, who was born 58 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: around one eighty CE. Just to be clear, that is 59 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: not the same person as Diogenes the Senic, who we 60 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: have covered on the show before. Diogenes the senc lived 61 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: a long time before Diogenes Laardius also, we are not 62 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: going to pretend to try to say any of these 63 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: names the way they were quote authentically pronounced. That's kind 64 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: of not possible to piece together at this point. But 65 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: Diogenes Laardiis was referencing a Polydorus of Athens, and a 66 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: Polydorus of Athens was born around one eighty BCE, so 67 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 1: these two men were born more than three hundred and 68 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: fifty years apart, and then Thales was born another three 69 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty years or so before a Polydorus of Athens. 70 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: Ancient Greek chroniclers and historians used Olympiads to count years, 71 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: with each Olympiad spanning the four year period between Olympic Games. 72 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: According to Diogenes, who was referencing a Polydorus, Thales died 73 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: at the age of seventy eight and was born during 74 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: the thirty fifth Olympiad that started in six forty BCE. 75 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: He died during the fifty eighth Olympiad, which started in 76 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: five forty eight BCE, but this would have made his 77 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: age more like ninety not seventy eight. Most sources agree 78 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: that there's a transcription error in the Olympiad of his birth, 79 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: and that Thales was really born during the thirty ninth 80 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: Olympiad that started in six twenty four BCE. So if 81 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: you're keeping score, we have one source quoting another source, 82 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: both of whom lived centuries later, and a mistake, and 83 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: we are only three paragraphs into this thing. We also 84 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: know very little about Thales's life, including who his parents were. 85 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: There are some ancient sources that say his mother was Phoenician. 86 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: Others give his parents names as Examise and Cleobulin, but 87 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: we don't know anything about them either. Beyond those possible names, 88 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: there is general agreement that he was born in Miletus 89 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: in Ionia on the aeg and c. This was a 90 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: trading hub and an intellectual center, and that's on the 91 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: Aegean coast, in an area that today is part of Turkya. 92 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: Guess what else. We don't have any surviving writing by 93 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: Thales or any exact quotes of his writing in other 94 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: later material. Instead, what we do have is lots and 95 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: lots of descriptions of what he wrote about, and references 96 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: to ideas that he put forth, and various facts and 97 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: ideas that are attributed to him. So all that said, 98 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: Thales was reportedly brilliant. He was named as one of 99 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: the seven wise men or sopoy of Plato's Protagoras. Plato 100 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: described Theales and these six other men as quote enthusiasts, lovers, 101 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: and disciples of the Spartan culture. And you can recognize 102 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: that character in their wisdom by the short, memorable sayings 103 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: that fell from each of them. They assembled together and 104 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: dedicated these as the first fruits of their lore to 105 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: Apollo in his Delphic temple. So these maxims include things 106 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 1: like no thyself and nothing in excess, both of which 107 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: are attributed to Thales. He's also credited as being one 108 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: of the founders of the Milesian school of philosophy, also 109 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: called the Ionian school. The three figures most associated with 110 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: this school are Thales, his student an Aximander, and an 111 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: axemander student in Aximenes. All three had a focus on 112 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: astronomy and cosmology, and all three put forth ideas about 113 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: what the universe was fundamentally made of. Some of their 114 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: ideas were really dissimilar, though, so some scholars described the 115 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: Milesian school as more of a geographic descriptor than any 116 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: kind of unified school of thought. Here are some ideas 117 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: that various ancient sources attribute to Thales. Water or perhaps fluid, 118 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: is the fundamental substance that makes up everything in the universe. Also, 119 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: everything has a soul, which is sometimes described as gods 120 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: residing in everything. This offered an explanation for magnetism. Loadstones 121 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: could attract iron because of the souls that were residing 122 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: within them. According to Aristotle, Sales described the Earth as 123 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: floating on an infinite sea of water. Seneca said he 124 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: used this floating earth to explain the cause of earthquakes. 125 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: Of course, this is not what causes earthquakes, but this 126 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: is sometimes described as a step away from blaming natural 127 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: phenomena on the behavior of gods and towards a more 128 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: rational and observable science. Side note, sources written today often 129 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: describe Sale's concept of the earth as a flat disk 130 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: floating on that water, but surviving references don't actually specify 131 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: a shape for this floating earth. It's pretty easy to 132 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: conclude that he meant that it was a disk, because 133 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: if there were a globe floating on the water, how 134 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: would the people on the underwater portion of it breathe? Like? 135 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: Is there an atmosphere? Like? How is it working is 136 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: it concased in something? Don't know? According to Aristotle, Anaximenes 137 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: and an Aximander believed that the Earth was lats, but 138 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: earlier in the same sentence that he mentioned them, he 139 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: also said some people thought the earth was spherical? So 140 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: does that some include bailies? If this description was meant 141 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: to be in chronological order, it could have, but like, 142 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: we just really don't know. The entry on Thales of 143 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: my Ladas at the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy argues that 144 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: Thales likely thought the Earth was a sphere for the 145 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: same reasons that Aristotle did, including things like seeing ships 146 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: sail away into the distance with their hulls disappearing below 147 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: the horizon before their masts and sails. This entry doesn't 148 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: really explain why Anteximotes and an Aximander, who would have 149 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: had access to these same observations, would have concluded otherwise, though, 150 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: or why we should conclude that Theales had different ideas 151 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: on this idea than the two of them. Yeah, I've 152 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: read this entry and I felt kind of convinced, and 153 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: then I was like, wait, why am I convinced? Though 154 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: I'm not, I still have questions. Also reportedly calculated the 155 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: height of the Great Pyramids of Egypt using geometry by 156 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: comparing the length of their shadow to the length of 157 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: the shadow of his staff. He may have written a 158 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: navigational work called the Nautical Star Guide, although Diogenes Leargists 159 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: says this was by Phocos of Samos. Some accounts say 160 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: Thales diverted the river hallis now known in Turkish as 161 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: the Kazillermac River into a channel so that King Criesus 162 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: could cross it with an army, and that he united 163 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: the city states of Ionia in the face of aggression 164 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: from the Kingdom of Lydia. We mentioned in our episode 165 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: about Gerardis Mercader that Theal's is sometimes credited with making 166 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: the first map projection. In this case, it was a 167 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: star chart. Since making a map projection involves making a 168 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: two dimensional map from a three dimensional globe, that's what 169 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: it is. This means that he recognized that the visible 170 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: night sky had a curved surface, even if he thought 171 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: the earth below it was flat. Again seen two arguments 172 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: on this that kind of contradicts the infinite sea concept. Well, 173 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: if you sort of imagine, like, uh, one of those 174 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: poppamatic bubbles where the flat part is the earth, and 175 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: the domed part is the night sky, and then infinite 176 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 1: sea all around it. Oh yeah, I guess sometimes. Daylees 177 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: is described as bringing geometry to Greece from Egypt, and 178 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: he's sometimes credited with several geometric theorems. Some of them 179 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: include that a circle is bisected by its diameter, that 180 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,839 Speaker 1: if two sides of a triangle or of equal length, 181 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: the angles opposite those sides are also equal, and that 182 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 1: opposite angles formed by intersecting straight lines are also equal. 183 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: Daylees is sometimes even credited with coming up with the 184 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: entire idea of geometric proofs. There are also a couple 185 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: of anecdotes about Daylies that paint almost contradictory pictures of 186 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 1: him as a person. One as that once upon a 187 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: time someone criticized him for not using his wisdom to 188 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: get rich. So based on his observations of the heavens, 189 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: he predicted that there was going to be a larger 190 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: than normal olive crop that year, and he got control 191 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: of all the olive presses in the area, so when 192 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: that crop was harvested, everybody had to pay him to 193 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: press their olives into oil. And then, having proved his 194 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: point that he could get rich with his brain if 195 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: he wanted to. He went back to his own work 196 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: and left olive pressing behind. Aristotle is one of the 197 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: sources for this story, but he doesn't actually seem to 198 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: really believe it or think. He thinks that if it 199 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: did happen, it wasn't something that Theales did. Among other things, 200 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: even if the olive crop hadn't been particularly large, he 201 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: still would have had a monopoly on all the presses. 202 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: Theylies definitely didn't invent the idea of the monopoly. The 203 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: other is his story reported by Plato, who said that 204 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: one time Thales was so focused on studying the night 205 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: sky that he fell into a well listen who among us? 206 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: When a servant pulled him out, She made fun of him, 207 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: asking rhetorically how he could hope to learn about the 208 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: heavens when he could not even watch his feet. Yeah, 209 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: according to the stories, he was both very astute and 210 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: incredibly absent minded. Uh. This episode feels like it was 211 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: already two thirds caveats, but we have still more caveats, 212 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: Like we really don't have any way of knowing whether 213 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 1: Thalies actually accomplished a lot of these things that were 214 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,719 Speaker 1: attributed to him. It's possible that since he was an 215 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 1: early Greek philosopher who was reputed to be very wise, 216 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: people just gave him credit for things that didn't have 217 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: a clear origin point. It was not all that unusual 218 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: to sort of attribute things to early Greek philosophers. Even 219 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: the ancient Greek sources that comment on his life and 220 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: work do not suggest that they had any first hand 221 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: access to any of his writing to back any of 222 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: this up. And there are so many sources today that 223 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: describe Thales as the first Greek philosopher or the first 224 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: scientist or first astronomer, and claim that ancient Greek scholars 225 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: described him that way as well. But the idea that 226 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: Thales established Greek philosophy and that Greek philosophy then formed 227 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: the foundation for the entirety of Western thought really seems 228 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: to have started to evolve in Europe around the eighteenth century. 229 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: In writing that is threaded through with so much xenophobia 230 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: and racism, it's likely that much of Thali's seemingly groundbreaking 231 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: knowledge actually came from Egypt. Thales's eclipse prediction and the 232 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: Battle of the Eclipse are intertwined. We are going to 233 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: start with that battle after a sponsor break, and that 234 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: is the part of the show that will have the 235 00:14:49,520 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: horrific cannibalism in it. Our earliest source on the Battle 236 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: of the Eclipse is by Herodotus, who lived from around 237 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: for eighty four BCE to around four thirty BCE, so 238 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: that was more than one hundred years after the death 239 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: of Thales, in a century or so before this battle 240 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: is believed to have happened. Here is what Herodotus had 241 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: to say. Quote, there had a risen war between the 242 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: Lydians and the Medis, lasting five years, in which years 243 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: the Medis often discomfited the Lydians, and the Lydians often 244 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: discomfited the Medis, and among others they fought also a 245 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: battle by night, and as they still carried on the 246 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: war with equally balanced fortune, in the sixth year a 247 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: battle took place, in which it happened when the fight 248 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: had begun, that suddenly the day became night. And this 249 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: change of the day Theales the Milesian, had foretold to 250 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: the Ionians, laying down as a limit this very year 251 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: in which the change took place. The Lydians, however, and 252 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: the Medis, when they saw that it had become night 253 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: and said of day ceased from their fighting and were 254 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: much more eager both of them that peace should be 255 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: made between them. So to contextualize that a bit, Lydia 256 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: occupied much of what is now western Turkia, and it 257 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: was heavily influenced by neighboring Ionia, where Thales was from. 258 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: The Medis were the people of Media, which occupied what's 259 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: now northwestern Iran as well as parts of what's now 260 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: Azerbaijan and Iraq. It's possible that there was a pretty 261 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: mundane reason for this war. It had started when Aliades 262 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: was king of Lydia and Sayagsaris was king of Media. 263 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: Both were trying to expand their kingdoms and annexed the 264 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: territory that lay between Lydia and Media, which brought the 265 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: two kingdoms into conflict with each other. But sometimes Herodotus's 266 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: histories included stories that were really compelling but not necessarily substantiated. 267 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: We've mentioned that previously on the show, and we've talked 268 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: about Herodotus and he offers a way more horrifying and 269 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 1: gruesome explanation for this war that was connected to a 270 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: group of Scythians. Scythians were a nomadic people who migrated 271 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: from Central Asia to what's now Russia and Ukraine. Eventually 272 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: their empire was centered on what's now Crimea. Their history 273 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: can be tricky to put together because they didn't use writing, 274 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 1: and a number of ancient sources that did write about 275 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: them sometimes conflated them with other nomadic peoples who spoke 276 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: Iranian languages. Also, a lot of these sources were describing 277 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: a society that their own people or their allies had 278 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: been attacked by, which of course influenced how they wrote 279 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: about these other people. But the Scythians were known for 280 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: their horsemanship, their archery, and their prowess in combat, very 281 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 1: broadly speaking. When this war took place, the Scythians controlled 282 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: territory to the northwest of Media and across the Black 283 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: Sea from Lydia. But more than a century prior, the 284 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: Scythians had controlled Media and the Medes had expelled the 285 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: Scythian Empire from their territory sometime around six hundred BCE, 286 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 1: but there were still small groups and bands in the 287 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: area after this point. So according to Herodotus's history, there 288 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: was a group of Scythians who were feuding with the 289 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 1: rest of their people at first, Syaksaris offered them his protection, 290 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: and he also sent some boys to the Cythians to 291 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: be taught their language and to learn archery. But one 292 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: day the Cythians went hunting, and they came back empty handed, 293 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: and Sayaksari's quote dealt with them very harshly and used 294 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: insult towards them. According to Herodotus, in response, the Scythians 295 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: quote planned to kill and cut up one of the 296 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 1: boys who were being instructed among them, and having dressed 297 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,479 Speaker 1: his flesh as they had been wont to dress the 298 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: wild animals to you, bear it to siaks Aris and 299 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: give it to him, pretending that it was game taken 300 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: in hunting. There are also some later sources that suggest 301 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: that this boy was one of Syaxari's's own children, or 302 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: some other child who was part of the royal family. 303 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: Once they had done this, the Scythians fled from media, 304 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 1: and quote Sayasaris with the guests who ate at his 305 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: table tasted of that meat, and the Scythians, having so done, 306 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:32,479 Speaker 1: became suppliants for the protection of Aliades. Sayasis demanded that 307 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: Aliades return the Scythians to him so they could be 308 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: brought to justice, and Aliades refused, and that started a war, 309 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: one in which, according to what we read earlier, the 310 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 1: two sides were pretty evenly matched for more than five years. 311 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: Herodotus states that after this battle, in which the day 312 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: turned into night and the two armies were inspired to 313 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: lay down their arms, two men helped negotiate a peace. 314 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: One was si Ansis of Cilia and one was Libidinous 315 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: of Babylon. Other sources say that the Babylonian negotiator was 316 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: actually King Nebuchinezer. The second this treaty involved a marriage 317 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: between Aliats's daughter Arhinius and Sayaksaris's son Astyages. There are 318 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: some other fragmented writings that suggest that maybe there was 319 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: also a second marriage between a Median princess and either 320 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: Aliates or Aliati's son Cretius. We have all whole episode 321 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: on Cretius, and since this is the second time that 322 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: he has come up, we will run that as a 323 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: Saturday Classic sometime soon. It's probably not surprising based on 324 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 1: how many caveats were involved in our discussion of Thales, 325 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: but there are various conflicting accounts of this war. Besides 326 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: the conflicting details that we've already mentioned and scholars have 327 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: been trying to piece together all of these details for 328 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: literally centuries. One question is whether Sayaksaris was king of 329 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: Media for the entire content. The account of Herodotus suggests 330 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: that he was, as does Clement of Alexandria, but Cicero 331 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: and other sources say that Saya Czaris died at some 332 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: point during the conflict or during the battle, and was 333 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: succeeded by his son Astyages, who continued the war with 334 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: the Lydians. Some translations of Herodotus interpret the treaty negotiations 335 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: as happening under Astiagies and not Saya Csari's. There's also 336 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: some debate about exactly where the border between these two 337 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: kingdoms was set under this treaty. The Kazillarmac River is 338 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 1: a logical and kind of widely assumed borderline, but it's 339 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 1: not really spelled out specifically in the surviving accounts. But 340 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: the last big question is when and where the battle happened, 341 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 1: which is connected to when and where the eclipse happened, 342 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: and that ties in to exactly what Theales predicted about 343 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: the eclipse and how or whether he could have made 344 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: such a prediction. And we're going to talk more about 345 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: all of that after or a sponsor break. If you 346 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: read about the battle of the eclipse in a newspaper 347 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: or a magazine, maybe a website meant for a general 348 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: audience today, maybe today specifically, because this is something that's 349 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: gotten just a lot of attention in the run up 350 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: to this today's eclipse, it'll probably say that this eclipse 351 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,360 Speaker 1: happened on May twenty eighth, five eighty five BCE. That's 352 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: the date that I said up at the top of 353 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: the show. And most of the time it comes across 354 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: as like this is and always has been the definitive 355 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: date that was established for the eclipse and consequently the battle. 356 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: Some sources go so far as to say that because 357 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 1: we know exactly when and where this eclipse occurred, we 358 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: also know exactly when and where the battle happened, meaning 359 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: it is one of the first events and where we 360 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: can pinpoint the exact date, time and place. Naturally, it's 361 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,719 Speaker 1: way more complicated than that. The account of Herodotus doesn't 362 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: really say that there was a solar eclipse. He said 363 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: that day turned tonight. Most sources interpret that as being 364 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: about a solar eclipse, and that's the most obvious possible explanation. 365 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: This is especially true since Herodotus also put it in 366 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 1: the context of a prediction, unless someone just makes a 367 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: lucky guess. Successfully predicting an eclipse requires knowledge of math, geometry, 368 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: and astronomy, and predicting where it will actually be visible 369 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: also requires a knowledge of geography, so the ability to 370 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: predict eclipse is also seen as an indication of where 371 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: a society is. In terms of all of this needed knowledge, 372 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: it would make sense for someone who had the reputed 373 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 1: brilliance of Thales to be credited with this kind of prediction. 374 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 1: At the same time, there are also Greek accounts of 375 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: philosopher anex Agoris predicting a meteor strike that is not 376 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: something you can predict in the same way that you 377 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: would predict an eclipse. We've talked about EnEx Agris on 378 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: the show before, but not about this whole meteor prediction. 379 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: So it's like within the realm of possibility that Theyales 380 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: predicted some other phenomenon that could turn day into night, 381 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: one that wouldn't necessarily be predictable in the same way 382 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: that an eclipse is. Some of the other possible explanations 383 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 1: for the day turning intonight include more mundane things like 384 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: a very sudden, dense cloud cover moving in, or things 385 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 1: that are a lot more dramatic, like atmospheric debris from 386 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 1: a volcanic eruption or smoke from a massive fire. Herodotus 387 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: also didn't specify when exactly they Lees had predicted this 388 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: eclipse would happen. According to the translation that Tracy used 389 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: for this episode, Herodotus just said Theaylees had foretold it 390 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: to the Ionians quote laying down as a limit this 391 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: very year in which the change took place. Neither he 392 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: nor later Greek writers specified which year they Lees had predicted, 393 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: although some did correlate that prediction with a specific eclipse 394 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: that by that point was known to have occurred sometime 395 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: in the six or seventh century BCE. There are so 396 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: many not entirely answered questions about all of this. First, 397 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: if Theyales really did successfully predict a solar eclipse, meaning 398 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 1: he did some kind of calculation rather than just making 399 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: a lucky guess, how did he do it? One common 400 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: idea is that he used something called the Babylonian saras, 401 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: which is a cycle of two hundred and twenty three 402 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: lunar months or eighteen years ten days and eight hours 403 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: in which there is a repeating pattern of eclipses. This 404 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: cycle does exist, but it's not entirely clear what the 405 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: Babylonians knew about it. Lunar eclipses are visible only at night, 406 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: and solar eclipses are very brief and are fully visible 407 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: only in a narrow band that is not in the 408 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: same place from one solar eclipse to the next, So 409 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: it's possible that the Babylonians had enough records of lunar 410 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: eclipses to spot a pattern among them, but this probably 411 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: would not be true for solar eclipses. In nineteen fifty two, 412 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: mathematician Otto Neugebauer argued that the idea that the Babylonians 413 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 1: used the Sero cycle to predict eclipses came from an 414 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: error made by Edmund Halley in the late seventeenth century 415 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: and then picked up by basically everyone else who wrote 416 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: about eclipses for the next three hundred years. I guess 417 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: if you're going to pick up somebody's mistake and repeat 418 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 1: it for Halle's a good one, why not start with 419 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 1: Edmund Halley? Again? There is a real pattern there. It's 420 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: pretty obvious using something like a color coded chart of 421 00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: all the various types of eclipses, and today we have 422 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 1: things like measurements taken using reflectors that astronauts left on 423 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: the Moon in order to allow us to like more 424 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: specifically track and measure the movement of the Moon. We 425 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: have way more precise data on this and what this 426 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: pattern actually looks like. It is just not as clear 427 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: how much the Babylonians understood about this and whether it 428 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: could have been enough to allow Thales to use it 429 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: to make a prediction about a solar eclipse. While there's 430 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: various other speculation about methods Dalies may have used to 431 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: predict the eclipse, it's possible that it was just a 432 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: lucky guess, or it could be that the dramatic intersection 433 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: between a battle and eclipse and the end of a 434 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: six year war seemed like something someone as wise as 435 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,199 Speaker 1: Day's would have predicted. Some of the sources that were 436 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: used in this episode conclude that there was no prediction 437 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 1: and that this entire story is made up, or that 438 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: the idea of day turning into night was actually more 439 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,719 Speaker 1: of a literary trope than an actual description of what 440 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: was happening in the sky. There are even some arguments 441 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: that the armies were so preoccupied with fighting that they 442 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,360 Speaker 1: fought into the night and then decided to lay down 443 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: their arms when they realized what they had done. This 444 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: last interpretation, though, doesn't work with translations that also say 445 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: that night then turned back to day unless it all 446 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: took a really long time. By the sixteenth century, mathematicians 447 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,959 Speaker 1: and astronomers knew a lot more about the solar system 448 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: and mathematics, and were using the movement of the Earth 449 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: and the Moon to more precisely calculate when previous eclipses 450 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: had happened, and they started proposing eclipses that could have 451 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: been the one connected to Thales, again based on more 452 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: specific math rather than kind of guessing. Setus Calvisius put 453 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: the year at six O seven. Isaac Newton said it 454 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: was five eighty five BCE. Henry Usher said six zho 455 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: one BCE. That is really just a sample. I don't 456 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: think that's even half of the ones that were put forth. 457 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: But these and other astronomers in the seventeenth and eighteenth 458 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: centuries kind of narrowed it down to eclipses that had 459 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: happened sometime between six twenty six BCE and five eighty 460 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: five BCE. Astronomer Francis Bailey took up the question again 461 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century and concluded that the Theailey's eclipse 462 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: had taken place on September thirtieth, six ' ten BCE, 463 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: because based on his calculations, that's the only one that 464 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: would have reached totality and would have crossed what was 465 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: then known as the River Hallas in the general area 466 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: where the battle was believed to have taken place. By 467 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: this point, so many people had tried to figure this out. 468 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: In Bailey's words, quote, there is probably no fact in 469 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: ancient history that has given rise to so many discussions 470 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: and to such a variety of opinions as the solar eclipse, which, 471 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: according to Herodotus, is said to have been predicted by Thales, 472 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: in which, owing to a very singular coincidence, put an 473 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: end to a furious war that raged between Sayaksari's King 474 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: of Media and Aliaates, king of Lydia. Bailey wrote this 475 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: in eighteen eleven, which was before even more work about 476 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: it was published later in the nineteenth century, after astronomers 477 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: started to realize that earlier calculations didn't account for small 478 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: shifts in the moon's movement known as secular acceleration. These 479 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: small shifts could have a big effect on exactly what 480 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 1: a solar eclipse looked like from Earth, where it was visible, 481 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: and where the path of totality was, and how the 482 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: eclipse moved along that path. Other astronomers started proposing other 483 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: eclipses as possibilities, including one on May eighteenth, six oh 484 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: three BCE, and then one on May twenty eighth, five 485 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: eighty five BCE, which seemed to be the general consensus 486 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: for the so called right eclipse at this point. There 487 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: are still arguments against the five eighty five BCE eclipse, 488 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: though One major argument is when exactly the eclipse would 489 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: have been total in the area where the battle probably 490 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: took place. Totality of a solar eclipse does not last 491 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: for very long. It's you know, very very roughly speaking, 492 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: between two and four minutes. In this region, the eclipse 493 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: would have started around five thirty PM, so just with 494 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: the Sun starting to be covered. Totality would have started 495 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: about an hour after that and lasted for a couple 496 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: of minutes. Then the eclipse would have ended around seven 497 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: twenty PM, with the Sun no longer blocked by any 498 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: part of the moon. But then sunset would have started 499 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: another ten or fifteen minutes after that. Most translations of 500 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: Herodotus and other accounts described the day turning into night 501 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: not long after the battle began, So one argument is 502 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: that it would have been unusual for a battle to 503 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: start so late in the day, although Herodotus did also 504 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: note that these two armies fought at least one battle 505 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: at night during this war. The other is that two 506 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: armies in the middle of the battle probably would not 507 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: have even noticed a solar eclipse that started that close 508 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: to sunset, when the sky was already darkening. Okay, we'll 509 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: talk about this more on Friday. But personally, having been 510 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: in the path of totality in twenty seventeen, and also 511 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: being a person who routinely hikes in like the thin, 512 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: sad light of four pm in the winter in New England, 513 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: I disagree with the idea that they would not have 514 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: noticed an eclipse close to sunset. We'll talk again more 515 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: about that on Friday. This examination of when Thailey's eclipse 516 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: may have happened is It's not the only such effort 517 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: to try to apply astronomy to history. There are a 518 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: lot of references to eclipses in old historical documents or 519 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: two astronomical events that might have been eclipses. So when 520 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: Isaac Newton and others were trying to figure out the 521 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: date when the eclipse of Thales happened, they were also 522 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: doing similar work on other historical eclipses, and the focus 523 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: of this research shifted over time. At first, the historical 524 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: record was the starting point. What actual eclipse could this 525 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: document be referring to? Astronomers and other researchers would look 526 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: for an eclipse that exactly matched the account, But over 527 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: time it became clear that historical accounts weren't always totally 528 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: accurate when it came to astronomical phenomena. This was especially 529 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: true in the works of people like Herodotus, who were 530 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: often reading about things that happened more than a century earlier. 531 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: Sometimes no specific year was mentioned, but sometimes when there 532 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:53,959 Speaker 1: was a year mentioned, it wasn't a year that had 533 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: an eclipse at all. So the focus shifted a little 534 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: bit from finding the eclipse that matched the written record 535 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: to correcting the written record based on the only options 536 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: for when the eclipse could have happened. So even though 537 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: if you read this like one page article, that's many 538 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: of them floating around about the battle of the eclipse 539 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: the day. It'll probably make it sound like there was 540 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:19,320 Speaker 1: definitively or almost definitely an eclipse on May twenty eighth 541 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 1: of five eighty five BCE, and that it definitely did 542 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: interrupt a battle that day. There's still just a ton 543 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: of debate around this. Based on what's become our typical schedule, 544 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: this episode should hopefully be out before the eclipse starts 545 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: in Mexico today and a couple of hours before it 546 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: reaches the southwestern US. So if you are about to 547 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: try to watch it, good luck and please protect your eyes. 548 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,359 Speaker 1: If you're in the Pacific and it's already passed you, 549 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: I hope, we hope that you had clear skies and 550 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: that you were able to get a glimpse. Yeah. And 551 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: if you're not watching an eclipse to day, if it's 552 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: three years from now or whatever, you know, if you've 553 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: seen one before, I hope it was great. I have 554 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: some listener mail from Kieran and Kieran's listener mail was 555 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 1: titled Etiquette the Outbursts of Everett True, and Kieran wrote, Hi, 556 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: Holly and Tracy, I just finished listening to the new 557 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: episode on etiquette, and it immediately reminded me of this 558 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: American comic that ran from nineteen oh five to nineteen 559 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,240 Speaker 1: twenty seven. I originally came across it on social media, 560 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: and forgive me that I haven't researched it as thoroughly 561 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: as I could have. I'm sure there are some things 562 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: about it that have not aged well, but I was 563 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: surprised at some of the comics being more progressive than 564 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 1: I would have expected from a white comic creator during 565 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: this time period. Unlike the etiquette books you covered in 566 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: the episode, which emphasize being prem and proper, it takes 567 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: on the rather different tone of an older, portly man 568 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: pummeling people into good sense and manners. I especially enjoyed 569 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: the ones where Everett true calls out someone racist, another 570 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: of him correcting someone who was abusing a dog, as 571 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: well as one as Everett being decided anti quote man 572 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: spreading things we are still dealing with today. Obviously, I'm 573 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: not advocating for violence, but bits of the comic did 574 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: make me chuckle, and I hope it offers an interesting 575 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: addition to your etiquette research. I'm attaching here the original 576 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 1: post that caught my eye. Thanks so much, for that 577 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: wonderful podcast and all that you do. All the best, Kieran. 578 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: Kieran then sent another email shortly thereafter that said, PS, 579 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: I forgot to add this to the original email, but 580 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: I'm afraid I cannot pay the pet tax at the moment, 581 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 1: as my precious for a baby of fourteen years passed 582 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: away back in twenty twenty one and I haven't been 583 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: ready for new for babies yet. But I do have 584 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: some recently finished quilts and quilts and progress. I hope 585 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:47,439 Speaker 1: y'all are into some textile goodness. Thanks again, First, these 586 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 1: quilt pictures are beautiful. What us send it? Textiles? What yuck? 587 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sending these quilt pictures. They're 588 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 1: so lovely beautiful. Yeah. So when I got this email, 589 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,240 Speaker 1: I was like, Everett True, all of this is ringing 590 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,280 Speaker 1: a bell to me. We have to have talked about 591 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: this before. When was it? And the answer was it 592 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: was during the episodes where we sort of talked about 593 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: our prior episode on the nineteen eighteen flu pandemic in 594 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: our new context of having lived through a year at 595 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: that point of COVID nineteen pandemic. Because other things that 596 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 1: Everett True beat people into a pulp about were refusing 597 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: to wear a mask in places that masks are supposed 598 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,799 Speaker 1: to be worn and coughing without covering their mouth. So yes, 599 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: Outburst of Ever it true. I similarly have no idea 600 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 1: about like this comic beyond those kinds of things that 601 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: we just talked about or the creator. But I did 602 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: appreciate getting this email. If you would like to send 603 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 1: us a note about this or any other podcast, we 604 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: are at History podcast atiheartradio dot com. Our social media 605 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 1: our username is typically missed in History. Email is the 606 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 1: best way to get us. I will say, for the 607 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 1: most part, I personally do not look at any of 608 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: my social media mentions on any platform, so if you 609 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 1: try to talk to me there, I'm probably not gonna 610 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 1: see it. 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