1
00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,760
Speaker 1: I'm George Severis and I'm Julia Clair, and this is

2
00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,880
Speaker 1: United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination

3
00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,120
Speaker 1: with the Kennedy Dynasty. Every week we go into one

4
00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,440
Speaker 1: aspect of the Kennedy story, and today we are finally

5
00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,520
Speaker 1: talking about the new Ryan Murphy show, Love Story John F.

6
00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,200
Speaker 1: Kennedy Junior and Carolyn Bassett, Created by Connor Hines but

7
00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,360
Speaker 1: executive produced by Ryan Murphy among his other various producing partners.

8
00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,280
Speaker 1: It is based on Elizabeth Beller's book Once Upon a

9
00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,599
Speaker 1: Time The Captivating Life of Carolyn Bessett Kennedy, which came

10
00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,040
Speaker 1: out only a couple of years ago, and it dramatizes JFK.

11
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,159
Speaker 1: Junior and Carolyn's romantic courtship, their volatile private and public relationship,

12
00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,120
Speaker 1: and their tragic deaths and a plan accident in nineteen

13
00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,320
Speaker 1: ninety nine. We have talked about both JFK. Junior and

14
00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,520
Speaker 1: Carolyn Bassett many times before, so please feel free to

15
00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,560
Speaker 1: go into the archives. We've talked about them in our

16
00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:07,480
Speaker 1: episodes about JFK. Junior's George Magazine, Carolyn as a nineties

17
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,920
Speaker 1: New York it girl, and in our episode about Kennedy Fashion.

18
00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,800
Speaker 2: To Catch you up. JFK. Junior was almost three years

19
00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,560
Speaker 2: old when his father was assassinated. He grew up in

20
00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:18,760
Speaker 2: the public eye, and as a young adult he was

21
00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,120
Speaker 2: a fixture in the tabloids. People magazine named him the

22
00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,880
Speaker 2: sexiest man Alive in nineteen eighty eight. Carolyn Bissett was

23
00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,360
Speaker 2: raised in Greenwich, Connecticut, and worked her way up at

24
00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,959
Speaker 2: Calvin Klein from shopping mall saleswoman to director of public relations.

25
00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:38,559
Speaker 2: They were both extremely attractive, fashionable, cool, and famous.

26
00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,480
Speaker 1: And they died tragically, so, needless to say, Ryan Murphy

27
00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:43,880
Speaker 1: had to make a show about them. The lead up

28
00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,160
Speaker 1: to the show's premiere was characterized by a couple of

29
00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,520
Speaker 1: minor controversies or major depending on what your tech talk

30
00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,800
Speaker 1: algorithm is. First off, the first photos of the two

31
00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,840
Speaker 1: leads were widely mocked on social media for being historically inaccurate,

32
00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:01,080
Speaker 1: with a special hatred reserve for Carolyn's hair and wardrobe.

33
00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:06,560
Speaker 2: And Carolyn's actual hair colorist came out when these photos

34
00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,720
Speaker 2: were released and railed against the show.

35
00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,440
Speaker 1: That's right, and then the show had to make a

36
00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,800
Speaker 1: statement and say that they've gone back and hired a

37
00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,919
Speaker 1: new wardrobe person. They've redone the wig they've redone the

38
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,400
Speaker 1: extensions and we'll get to it. But I actually think

39
00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:20,320
Speaker 1: they did a pretty good job.

40
00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Jack Schlossberg, who we've talked about many times

41
00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,480
Speaker 2: on the show. JFK Junior's nephew, spoke out against the show,

42
00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,560
Speaker 2: calling it grotesque on social media, and that whole thing

43
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,200
Speaker 2: led to an awkward back and forth between he and

44
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:38,120
Speaker 2: Ryan Murphy.

45
00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,520
Speaker 1: So obviously, as with all things Kennedy, there were a

46
00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,519
Speaker 1: bunch of different controversies. People were mixed in their anticipation

47
00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,840
Speaker 1: of it, but nevertheless, the show is now out and

48
00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,040
Speaker 1: the response has generally been mixed. I was trying to

49
00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,520
Speaker 1: sort of ascertain based on reviews if this is thought

50
00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,359
Speaker 1: of as like a success or a failure, and I

51
00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,840
Speaker 1: think people appreciate some parts of it, maybe find it

52
00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:05,960
Speaker 1: honestly a little boring overall in its wikipedia ness. But

53
00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:07,480
Speaker 1: what was your first impression of it?

54
00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,120
Speaker 2: Well, my first impression honestly had most to do with

55
00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,839
Speaker 2: Sarah Pigeon, who plays Carolyn Bissett. She's the standout from

56
00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,399
Speaker 2: the show. I think she's so cool. They did get

57
00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:22,160
Speaker 2: the color and the extensions right eventually, and I was

58
00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:27,920
Speaker 2: really impressed by her performance. I love how the show looks.

59
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,480
Speaker 2: It is very much like a love letter to nineties

60
00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,799
Speaker 2: New York, and I can see why certain people think

61
00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:38,000
Speaker 2: that there's like a level of hollowness to that, But overall,

62
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,280
Speaker 2: I was pleasantly surprised by the fact that I was

63
00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,680
Speaker 2: interested in it at all. It's not the kind of

64
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,000
Speaker 2: thing that I would usually watch if we were not

65
00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:46,760
Speaker 2: doing the show.

66
00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely agree that Sarah Pigeon is the standout.

67
00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,120
Speaker 1: There are some inconsistent performances throughout we can get into later,

68
00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,760
Speaker 1: but she does truly the impossible, which is take a

69
00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:03,280
Speaker 1: famous woman who was known basically only for her looks.

70
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:04,960
Speaker 1: I mean, we've talked about this before, but there was

71
00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,680
Speaker 1: like five or ten seconds of actual video footage of

72
00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:12,640
Speaker 1: Carolyn talking in total in the world available right now.

73
00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,400
Speaker 2: Two clips that exist of her voice, and they are

74
00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,120
Speaker 2: like three seconds each.

75
00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,640
Speaker 1: And so she took basically the very little she had

76
00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,680
Speaker 1: and does a pretty good job of creating a character

77
00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,000
Speaker 1: that feels both like a tribute to Carolyn and also

78
00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,520
Speaker 1: kind of, I don't know, an imaginative rendering of what

79
00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,599
Speaker 1: she could have been like based on other women that

80
00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,640
Speaker 1: were similar to her of that time, which is crazy

81
00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:39,920
Speaker 1: for Ryan Murphy show. It doesn't feel cartoonish, it does

82
00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,520
Speaker 1: not feel super campy. She's doing so much with her face. Yeah,

83
00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,679
Speaker 1: and she's often working with people who are not giving

84
00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,240
Speaker 1: her much in return, and I think it is very

85
00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,839
Speaker 1: impressed of what she manages to do. Did you see

86
00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,840
Speaker 1: Stereophonic on stage? No? I didn't. That's where she came from.

87
00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,880
Speaker 1: She was the female lead in Phonic, which is sort

88
00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,960
Speaker 1: of like a fictionalized account of Fleetwood Mac recording an album. Wow.

89
00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,200
Speaker 1: And she's incredibly good in it, and I'm very happy

90
00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,360
Speaker 1: that it's all working out for her and that she's

91
00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,760
Speaker 1: come out of a Ryan Murphy project on scales, which

92
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:15,560
Speaker 1: is you know, you can't say for everyone.

93
00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, and as the more like critical reviews of the

94
00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,839
Speaker 2: show not only spare her, but to say that she

95
00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,040
Speaker 2: is the shining light at the center of this show.

96
00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:25,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

97
00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:27,920
Speaker 2: I also think it was really smart to get someone

98
00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,760
Speaker 2: who is not super well known and to get a

99
00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,000
Speaker 2: theater actor, because she had to create the person who

100
00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,440
Speaker 2: was Carolyn out of whole cloth, and her version of

101
00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,400
Speaker 2: Carolyn feels really three dimensional and like a real person.

102
00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:48,000
Speaker 2: And I can't say that for all of the depictions

103
00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:49,120
Speaker 2: in this series.

104
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, it's funny. It's almost like some

105
00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,440
Speaker 1: of the other actors in some ways have a more

106
00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,839
Speaker 1: difficult task because they have to bring to life someone

107
00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,240
Speaker 1: that we already have such or like if you're playing

108
00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,719
Speaker 1: Daryl Hannah, for example, we've all seen many, many, many

109
00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,279
Speaker 1: hours of footage of Daryl Hannah in our lives, whether

110
00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,720
Speaker 1: it's from her performances or from interviews or from going

111
00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:12,440
Speaker 1: on a late night sure or whatever. Yeah, and so

112
00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,440
Speaker 1: in some ways that is more difficult to do that

113
00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,640
Speaker 1: and actually create something original. But it's tough with something

114
00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,360
Speaker 1: like the Kennedy's to do anything in their world and

115
00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:28,359
Speaker 1: not have it come across as completely like community theater level. Yeah,

116
00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:32,640
Speaker 1: caricature acting totally. But I do completely agree with you

117
00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,200
Speaker 1: that my favorite part, other than the Sarah Bige's performance,

118
00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,919
Speaker 1: was the depiction of nineties New York and they really

119
00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,560
Speaker 1: like they film at Michael's, they go to the big

120
00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,480
Speaker 1: coffee table book party is at what is now The Grill,

121
00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,280
Speaker 1: which was like the restaurant at the Four Seasons, which

122
00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,760
Speaker 1: is like such an iconic New York location. All the shots,

123
00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,359
Speaker 1: the outdoor shots of Tribeca really make you feel like

124
00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,600
Speaker 1: you're in nineties Tribeca. Yeah, even just like this is

125
00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,359
Speaker 1: a minor thing, but even the indoors inside of the

126
00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,560
Speaker 1: Calvin Klein offices, it makes you want to work in

127
00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,080
Speaker 1: fashion in the nineties. And you know there's things that

128
00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,640
Speaker 1: are designed to make you you know, point at the TV.

129
00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,680
Speaker 1: Like when she discovers Kate Moss, Oh my god, you

130
00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,240
Speaker 1: know Via she looks at Kate Moss's headshot and is like,

131
00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,160
Speaker 1: that's the one we have to hire Kate Moss.

132
00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,640
Speaker 2: And Kate Moss's headshot is in the Rejas pile and

133
00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:24,640
Speaker 2: she says, exist girl another look.

134
00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,160
Speaker 1: Eh, it got me.

135
00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,320
Speaker 2: I was like, God, I mean to be at the

136
00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,200
Speaker 2: rock sy blasting SIGs, snorting lines of coke, with the

137
00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,600
Speaker 2: world at your fingertips. It really makes you want to

138
00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:36,960
Speaker 2: be there.

139
00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,800
Speaker 1: If anything, I would say sadly, they get it so

140
00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,920
Speaker 1: right that then it brings even more into relief. How

141
00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,000
Speaker 1: boring the actual specifics of the character. Yeah, Like you're

142
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,000
Speaker 1: in this amazing environment. You're like, okay, great, so what's

143
00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,120
Speaker 1: gonna happen? Is someone going to have a huge fight?

144
00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,800
Speaker 1: And then the actual narrative beats of the show don't

145
00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:01,480
Speaker 1: match the drama of its environment. So we can go

146
00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:02,960
Speaker 1: through the cast a little bit. We have Sarah Pigeon,

147
00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,440
Speaker 1: as we said, as Carolyn Kennedy, Paul Anthony Kelly as

148
00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,120
Speaker 1: JFK Junior, and he was a big discovery. So they

149
00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,600
Speaker 1: did this like huge search to find the perfect JFK Junior.

150
00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:14,480
Speaker 1: The story goes that he was one of the first

151
00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,760
Speaker 1: people they saw and then they sort of abandoned him,

152
00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:18,640
Speaker 1: and then they kind of came back to him after

153
00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:20,440
Speaker 1: seeing you know, hundreds of people, and they were like,

154
00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:22,960
Speaker 1: it was him all along. What did you think of

155
00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:23,760
Speaker 1: him in the role?

156
00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,960
Speaker 2: I was very harsh with him in the first few episodes,

157
00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,080
Speaker 2: In the first episode especially, I was like, he is

158
00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,760
Speaker 2: really not a very good actor. I think I've softened

159
00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,000
Speaker 2: on him a little bit. I will say that I

160
00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,920
Speaker 2: think that his portrayal of JFK is really missing a

161
00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:46,040
Speaker 2: certain like secret sauce that JFK Junior had this kind

162
00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:50,120
Speaker 2: of dick swinging confidence like he And the thing about

163
00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:54,120
Speaker 2: Paul Anthony Kelly is that he looks really perfect. He's

164
00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,480
Speaker 2: about as close to the real thing as you can get,

165
00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,559
Speaker 2: and he's so hot. He's an extremely hands some man.

166
00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,880
Speaker 2: But even so, you look at pictures of him and

167
00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,280
Speaker 2: then you look at pictures of the real JFK. Junior

168
00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,360
Speaker 2: and it's not even close. Somehow, it's true, it's crazy.

169
00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,160
Speaker 2: Junior was just the hottest guy who's ever lived, maybe

170
00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:15,640
Speaker 2: besides like Paul Newman.

171
00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,720
Speaker 1: Completely. No, it's the opposite of the problem you normally

172
00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,679
Speaker 1: have with biopics, where they cast someone that's too hot.

173
00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:24,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I just saw the Testament of Lee with

174
00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:26,679
Speaker 1: Amanda Seyfried and then I looked up the real En

175
00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:28,920
Speaker 1: Lee and you know, not to comment on a woman's appearance,

176
00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,760
Speaker 1: but she did not look like Amanda Cypried. And that's

177
00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,559
Speaker 1: even an issue with other Kennedy movies we've seen. I

178
00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,120
Speaker 1: mean totally, they cast Hollywood actors to play you know,

179
00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:42,120
Speaker 1: Ted Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy and people who were like, okay,

180
00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,600
Speaker 1: yes they are Kennedy's, but they're normal looking people. Yeah,

181
00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,559
Speaker 1: And then you're suddenly casting like these truly beautiful model

182
00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,120
Speaker 1: esque and it's so funny that JFK. Junior was actually

183
00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,800
Speaker 1: so attractive that the issue is that despite the fact

184
00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,720
Speaker 1: that I'm looking at a beautiful man on screen, he's

185
00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,559
Speaker 1: not having the same effect on that JFK Junior would.

186
00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just think there's something missing in this performance,

187
00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:10,320
Speaker 2: and he plays him so reverently. He clearly has so

188
00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:14,920
Speaker 2: much admiration for the real JFK. Junior, And I think

189
00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,600
Speaker 2: that's maybe the original sin of this performance is that

190
00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,560
Speaker 2: he's playing him with kind of like an awe shuck's

191
00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:26,360
Speaker 2: humility completely. You know, in any interviews videos you've seen

192
00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,320
Speaker 2: of the real JAYF. K. Junior, it's just that's not

193
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:30,000
Speaker 2: who he was.

194
00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,880
Speaker 1: The complete pro Kennedy mythology ethos of the show is

195
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,720
Speaker 1: like so in your face. I mean, it feels like

196
00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,520
Speaker 1: it was produced by the Kennedy family, which is actually

197
00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,120
Speaker 1: ironic because they do not approve of it. And as

198
00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,400
Speaker 1: we said, Jack Slasberg doesn't like it.

199
00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,120
Speaker 2: Ryan Murphy has in interviews he's been kind of hostile

200
00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,400
Speaker 2: to their whole, like American aristocracy.

201
00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:53,280
Speaker 1: It's tiring.

202
00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:54,520
Speaker 2: It's very strange.

203
00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,920
Speaker 1: If it went a little further than it would almost

204
00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,839
Speaker 1: be a campy tea down of the Kennedy mythology, because

205
00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,840
Speaker 1: there are elements of that. I mean, if you made

206
00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,040
Speaker 1: all the performances a little more draggy and kept even

207
00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,640
Speaker 1: the same script, it would almost read as a satire

208
00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,200
Speaker 1: or something. Yes, But the way it is now, it

209
00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:18,440
Speaker 1: just is so like the Kennedys were misunderstood and how

210
00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,160
Speaker 1: dare you you know, they don't owe you anything and

211
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,960
Speaker 1: actually they're real people and all this stuff, and the

212
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,880
Speaker 1: way that the non Kennedy characters are portrayed, like, for example,

213
00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,840
Speaker 1: someone like Daryl Hannah is portrayed as like wanting to

214
00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,920
Speaker 1: mooch off of the Kennedy name and everything she does

215
00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,360
Speaker 1: is in poor taste. Then she's so Hollywood, whereas the

216
00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,240
Speaker 1: Kennedy's are so classy and sophisticated.

217
00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's Hollywood, and she's bohemian. She wears flowy dresses

218
00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,760
Speaker 2: and she's the worst thing that you can be if

219
00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:48,880
Speaker 2: you're a Kennedy, a blonde actress.

220
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,080
Speaker 1: Well yeah, and then she and her friends are the

221
00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,200
Speaker 1: ones like being bohemian layabouts and doing drugs in the apartment,

222
00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,760
Speaker 1: whereas JFK. Junior is working late in the office because

223
00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,680
Speaker 1: he's so hard working. Oh my god, I mean, the

224
00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:05,319
Speaker 1: awestarks quality is so spot on because it's almost making

225
00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,320
Speaker 1: the argument that he was in no way complicit in

226
00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:12,199
Speaker 1: his image being you know, people's sexiest man alive in

227
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,040
Speaker 1: like America's hunk. It's like, what this show wants you

228
00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:16,800
Speaker 1: to believe is that all he cares about is being

229
00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,199
Speaker 1: the first a serious lawyer and then a serious magazine editor,

230
00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,040
Speaker 1: and the evil press is projecting this image of the

231
00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:25,840
Speaker 1: hunk on him. It's like, well, he's the one that

232
00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,120
Speaker 1: is playing football shirtless at the park and he's very

233
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,160
Speaker 1: much like he is dating celebrities, Like he's not like,

234
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,080
Speaker 1: please leave me alone. Yeah.

235
00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,280
Speaker 2: It wasn't like he only dated Daryl Hannah. He dated

236
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,959
Speaker 2: Sarah Jessica Parker, he dated Madonna Madonna, he dated Brooks Shields.

237
00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,240
Speaker 2: This is a guy who, in a certain way loved

238
00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:47,960
Speaker 2: his place in the spotlight. He's a playboy.

239
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,360
Speaker 1: He's a playboy, yes, and there are flavors of like,

240
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,400
Speaker 1: I mean, this is not the right comparison, but when

241
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,120
Speaker 1: you think of a young Gavin Newsom, like Gavin Newsom

242
00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,320
Speaker 1: was leaning into the idea that he was like a

243
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,080
Speaker 1: hunky politician and doing you know, photo shoots with his

244
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,079
Speaker 1: then wife Kimberly Gilflow, which is another.

245
00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:07,000
Speaker 2: It's one of my favorite piece.

246
00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:07,800
Speaker 1: It's incredible.

247
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,360
Speaker 2: We'll be back with more United.

248
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:37,959
Speaker 3: States of Kennedy after this break.

249
00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,320
Speaker 2: And we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

250
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,480
Speaker 1: Then we have Naomi Watts as Jackie Kennedy.

251
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,400
Speaker 2: You know I love her. I love her. I can't

252
00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,080
Speaker 2: help it, and I think she's really good. First of all,

253
00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,760
Speaker 2: I think her accent is great. It's a very hard

254
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,640
Speaker 2: accent to do without becoming a cartoon completely. And I

255
00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,120
Speaker 2: think the quieter moments, when it's like her and JFK Jr.

256
00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,920
Speaker 2: Talking in the park, I think she really shines. They

257
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,960
Speaker 2: did her so dirty with having her dance to came Lot.

258
00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:01,360
Speaker 2: At the end of episode two, She's like, there, it's

259
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:01,920
Speaker 2: so crazy.

260
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,160
Speaker 1: This is a movie trope that I actually was in

261
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,680
Speaker 1: another Kennedy movie we watched, and of course now I

262
00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,680
Speaker 1: can't remember. Oh it was in Jackie. The trope of

263
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,199
Speaker 1: a drunk woman putting on a record and dancing by herself.

264
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,480
Speaker 1: There was a point when Natalie Portman does it in

265
00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,480
Speaker 1: Jackie and there's something so ridiculous about it, and I

266
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,160
Speaker 1: couldn't When that happened, I was like, please make it stuff.

267
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,000
Speaker 1: But I have to say, between this and Truman can

268
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,760
Speaker 1: putting the Swans, Naomi Watts has really become a very

269
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,000
Speaker 1: good Ryan Murphy player. She knows exactly the register you

270
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,640
Speaker 1: have to hit as like an actress of a certain

271
00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,880
Speaker 1: age in a wig in a Ryan Murphy production. She

272
00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,280
Speaker 1: gets it like it's the right level of camp, It's

273
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,920
Speaker 1: the right level of slight overacting, but doing it knowingly.

274
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,000
Speaker 1: I mean, she's like, I could do this more subtly

275
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:48,640
Speaker 1: if I wanted to. I have the talent, but I'm

276
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:49,440
Speaker 1: choosing to do this.

277
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,080
Speaker 2: No. I think she's really good. There's a little bit

278
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,920
Speaker 2: of overacting, but it's not bad acting, and there is

279
00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:56,560
Speaker 2: a distinction.

280
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. I agree. Well, we have quite a

281
00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,720
Speaker 1: few Neputa Highers in this series. We have Grace Gummer,

282
00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:07,320
Speaker 1: Meryl Streep's daughters, Caroline Kennedy Andrea Hemingway, Ernest Hemingway's granddaughter

283
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,200
Speaker 1: as Daryl Hannah.

284
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:10,240
Speaker 2: And Mariel Hemingway's daughter.

285
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,160
Speaker 1: Correct, Yes, marily Hanmwave is out. That's right. And Grace

286
00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,720
Speaker 1: Gummer is such good casting. For Carolyn Kennedy, I think

287
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,600
Speaker 1: great casting. There's something about her face, and I think

288
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,800
Speaker 1: the wig is exactly perfect. Her hair looks exactly like

289
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,040
Speaker 1: Caroline's looked, and I think Dre Hemingway. I've complicated feelings

290
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,480
Speaker 1: about this performance because she's actually getting the kind of

291
00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,480
Speaker 1: Los Angeles whiny Daryl Hannah voice down.

292
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,280
Speaker 2: I think her voice is perfect. Yes, I mean, having

293
00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,560
Speaker 2: watched so many Daryl Hannah performances and you know, movies

294
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,080
Speaker 2: over the years, she sounds just like her. Yeah, in

295
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:47,640
Speaker 2: a way that's a little spooky.

296
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,280
Speaker 1: And I think she looks like if you squint, she

297
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,240
Speaker 1: looks enough like her to sort of to be believable.

298
00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,800
Speaker 1: But then I find that it almost is like she

299
00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,920
Speaker 1: gets the impression down so well that it becomes one note,

300
00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,400
Speaker 1: like everything is set in the same tone. Yeah.

301
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,800
Speaker 2: And also, I mean the way that the characters written

302
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,640
Speaker 2: is they did her dirty. They did her so dirty.

303
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,440
Speaker 2: They made Daryl Hannah again into this and and they

304
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,680
Speaker 2: were together JK. Junior and Darrel Hannah were together for

305
00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,520
Speaker 2: on and off for five years. It's a long time.

306
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,800
Speaker 2: And they Yeah, they just kind of made her into

307
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,920
Speaker 2: a really exaggerated Hollywood trope. I guess of this like

308
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:29,920
Speaker 2: kind of bimbo hippie blonde actress who is obsessed with JFK. Junior.

309
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,680
Speaker 2: And it's depicted as he's like pushing her away. He's

310
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:35,720
Speaker 2: he's trying to keep his distance from her, but she

311
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,560
Speaker 2: just keeps coming back because she's obsessed with him.

312
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it's very you know, there's such reverence to

313
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,680
Speaker 1: the Kennedy's that then all the other characters have to

314
00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,840
Speaker 1: become villains because you need some ree to be interesting

315
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:51,000
Speaker 1: in the story.

316
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,440
Speaker 2: And I guess I understand as a plot device for

317
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,840
Speaker 2: this frim love story, you need like the other woman

318
00:16:57,960 --> 00:16:58,800
Speaker 2: to be the villain.

319
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, although you know it's interesting. Carolyn's other love interest

320
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,800
Speaker 1: is actually portrayed so far. I mean we've only seen

321
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,480
Speaker 1: the first few episodes so far, he's actually portrayed in

322
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,320
Speaker 1: a very generous way, like he's just sort of kind

323
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,159
Speaker 1: of like a not super interesting hunk, and he's like

324
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,359
Speaker 1: grateful that she's getting him opportunities and whatever, Whereas in

325
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,200
Speaker 1: real life he actually is much more of a troublemaker

326
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:21,639
Speaker 1: than Daryl Hannah from what I understand.

327
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:26,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they really didn't have to make Daryl Hannah

328
00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:31,359
Speaker 2: into such a bimbo or like a villain in order

329
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,760
Speaker 2: to set up the love story of JFK. Junior and Carolyn.

330
00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,879
Speaker 2: It could have just been this tormented entanglement that he

331
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,000
Speaker 2: and Daryl Hannah had, but they really went for it

332
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,560
Speaker 2: with making her seem crazy. It's very like, oh, she's

333
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,880
Speaker 2: a crazy girl. That's no completely the depiction in the writing.

334
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny because so much of this book that

335
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,440
Speaker 1: the show is based on was trying to reclaim Carolyn's

336
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,080
Speaker 1: legacy because she was so often in the media or

337
00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,159
Speaker 1: trayed as a cokehead vixen who was a bitch a

338
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,439
Speaker 1: bitch And now you know, she just wanted JFK. Junior

339
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:12,040
Speaker 1: because of his status and money and fame and whatever.

340
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,520
Speaker 1: And it's funny that in the process of attempting to

341
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,879
Speaker 1: rescue Carolyn's reputation, they have just like completely proven a

342
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,119
Speaker 1: different young woman under the bus.

343
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is so funny that Carolyn was ever seen

344
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,800
Speaker 2: as like a gold digger and someone who just wanted

345
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,000
Speaker 2: the life of a Kennedy, because I don't know that

346
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:38,080
Speaker 2: anybody thought that being a Kennedy what's without its problems.

347
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,320
Speaker 2: And also couldn't she have just wanted him because he

348
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:41,760
Speaker 2: was the hottest man?

349
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,480
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I think with any quote unquote normal woman, Yeah,

350
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,600
Speaker 1: totally ends updating a very famous man. There's always and

351
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,879
Speaker 1: especially if she's blonde and thin and you know, doesn't

352
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,160
Speaker 1: smile in photos, there's just always going to be suspicion there. Yeah.

353
00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,600
Speaker 1: So I want to sort of situate this in the

354
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,719
Speaker 1: Ryan Murphy universe a little bit. This isn't created by

355
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:05,920
Speaker 1: Iran Murphy, as we said, but it's very much being

356
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,320
Speaker 1: sold as a Ryan Murphy production. I mean, Ryan Murphy

357
00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,080
Speaker 1: is doing press about it. It was originally called American

358
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,680
Speaker 1: Love Story, which of course means that it exists within

359
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,800
Speaker 1: the general universe of American Crime Story and American Horror Story.

360
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,000
Speaker 1: It's very similar to American Crime Story in the sense

361
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,040
Speaker 1: that so much of the pleasure of watching it is

362
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,879
Speaker 1: in seeing how great actors or you know, some not

363
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,000
Speaker 1: so great actors interpret public figures we already know, I

364
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,560
Speaker 1: mean American Crime Story. Obviously there's the OJ Simpson season,

365
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,320
Speaker 1: and then there's the Johnny Versace season, and it's such

366
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,320
Speaker 1: a staple of these Ryan Murphy shows for an actor

367
00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,720
Speaker 1: to transform. And you have Penelope Cruise doing Donna tulliversachi

368
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,720
Speaker 1: and you know Sarah Paulson in the OJ season. What

369
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:51,919
Speaker 1: is your history with Ryan Murphy shows.

370
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:57,160
Speaker 2: So I'm famously a little bitch and very afraid of horror,

371
00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,000
Speaker 2: So I have not seen any of the American Horror

372
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:05,560
Speaker 2: Story series. I have, however, seen American Crime Story, the

373
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,199
Speaker 2: OJ series, which for my money, is some of the

374
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:14,160
Speaker 2: best television that's ever existed. It's so good beginning to end.

375
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,560
Speaker 2: I mean, it's incredible acting. When Ryan Murphy dies, that

376
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,720
Speaker 2: will be on his tombstone, we need to thank him

377
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,399
Speaker 2: for that series. If nothing else. I loved that series

378
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,639
Speaker 2: so much. I loved Sarah Paulson's Stirling K. Brown. But

379
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,120
Speaker 2: even that series has a little bit of camp to it.

380
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,199
Speaker 2: Like I thought, it was really incredible acting. But then

381
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,040
Speaker 2: you also have Cuba Gooding Junior playing oj who is

382
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,240
Speaker 2: too small for the part, and he is shorter.

383
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,720
Speaker 1: Than many of the other actors playing like normal lawyers.

384
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:48,120
Speaker 2: He's shorter than David Swimmer who is playing Robert Kardashi

385
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,399
Speaker 2: and his lord Ashi, which is crazy, and Cuba is

386
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,840
Speaker 2: doing a kind of a kooky performance. But I love

387
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,400
Speaker 2: that series. I love that Ryan Murphy kind of assembles

388
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:04,399
Speaker 2: a crew of dibuzz to just say whatever he wants

389
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 2: them to say. And I love that. But what have

390
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,120
Speaker 2: you seen in the Ryan Murphy cinematic universe?

391
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 1: First of all, I mean, going all the way back

392
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,160
Speaker 1: to I don't know, when we were in high school

393
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,400
Speaker 1: or college, I remember loving Nip Tuck and that being

394
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 1: sort of like a foundational, kind of trashy prestige TV show.

395
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 1: I remember so well Joan Rivers playing herself and going

396
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,920
Speaker 1: in and talking about like the work that she has done.

397
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,959
Speaker 1: I thought that was such a fun cameo. And then

398
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 1: Glee I watched, you know, sort of longer than I'd

399
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,480
Speaker 1: like to admit. I find the Ryan Murphy universe so

400
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 1: easy to dip in and out of. H I actually

401
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 1: don't know if I've ever actually finished a Ryan Murphy show,

402
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,440
Speaker 1: but I've seen the first like two or three episodes

403
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,560
Speaker 1: of many. I've seen the first or three episodes of

404
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 1: every American Crime Story. Oh you know what. I have

405
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,680
Speaker 1: finished the first season of American Horror Story with Connie Britton,

406
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,159
Speaker 1: and then I have to say I loved it. I

407
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 1: recently been watching The Beauty, which I have to say

408
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 1: is one of the worst shows I've ever seen, but

409
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,160
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, I can't believe.

410
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:08,400
Speaker 2: You're watching it.

411
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,000
Speaker 1: It is shocking that I pressed play on it multiple times.

412
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 1: So there is just so you.

413
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,439
Speaker 2: Didn't finish American Crime Story, the OJ one.

414
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 1: I think I watched the first half. I really liked it, but.

415
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 2: You finish it. It's really I should.

416
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 1: And I watched the Johnny Versacu one. I also watched

417
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,680
Speaker 1: maybe like three talk about getting the setting right. It's

418
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,439
Speaker 1: portrayal of like Miami during that era, was it's so

419
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 1: and the fashion is so fun. He you know, it's

420
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,800
Speaker 1: complicated with someone like Ryan Murphy because so often he

421
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 1: doesn't get it quite right. Yeah, especially some of the

422
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 1: you know, there's another series he does, Monster, where each

423
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 1: season is about a different serial killer or about a

424
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 1: different criminal, and those can be a bit gratuitous in

425
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 1: ways that I find a bit impoor taste.

426
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

427
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 1: At the same time, he does have a special sauce

428
00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,880
Speaker 1: and when it works, it sort of works, and I've

429
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 1: I have to begrudgingly sort of appreciate his ouvra.

430
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, his output is so high, the fact that he

431
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,440
Speaker 2: released two series within a few weeks of each other,

432
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 2: Like he is just always churning it out straight.

433
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 1: I mean, All's Fair was not that long ago. It

434
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 1: was maybe like six months ago. Yeah. He's currently working

435
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 1: on the Brett eastern Ellis adaptation of The Shards, which

436
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 1: is a hugely anticipated thing. It's NonStop.

437
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 2: So with output that voluminous, not all of it is

438
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 2: even close to good, but when it is good, it's

439
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 2: really good.

440
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 1: I Mean he is sort of the white Tyler Perry

441
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 1: in this way, like he is churning them out. I

442
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 1: don't want to know anything about the working conditions on

443
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,400
Speaker 1: these shows. Please do not tell me. I don't want

444
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: to know.

445
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I have to imagine just from the people involved.

446
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 2: Please tell me that he works union unlike Tyler Perry

447
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 2: works with SAG and WGA. I have to imagine that

448
00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 2: he does.

449
00:23:59,080 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: Let's hope.

450
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 2: So, but yeah, thank you White, Tyler Perry.

451
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 1: Yes. One of my favorite Ryan Murphy quotes from many,

452
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 1: many years ago is someone asked him how he feels

453
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 1: about the adjective campy that's used to describe his work,

454
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: and he said that he really doesn't like it when

455
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 1: people use the word campi and he prefers baroque.

456
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 2: Oh, and I just thought that was one of.

457
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 1: The funniest, one of the funniest things.

458
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 2: That's maybe the campiest way you could respond to that.

459
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 1: It's exactly. It's so funny because to not understand that

460
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: being a gay guy saying I actually describe my work

461
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: as baroque is the campiest possible thing you can be saying.

462
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 2: We're going to take a short break, stay with.

463
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: Us, and we're back with United States of Kennedy.

464
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 2: So the first three episodes are out, yes right now.

465
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 2: As of recording, we're on Tuesday the seventeenth. I think

466
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 2: the fourth episode will be out by the time we

467
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 2: released this episode. But a quick rundown of the first

468
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 2: three episodes is kind of like where we meet JFK.

469
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 2: Junior and Carolyn Bessad in nineteen ninety two. I believe JFK.

470
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 2: Junior has just failed the New York State Bar exam

471
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 2: for the second time, and it's all over the tabloids.

472
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 2: It's all over the cover of every New York post.

473
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: The hunk flunks, which.

474
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 2: Failing the New York State Bar is kind of a

475
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 2: Kennedy Man tradition. Our K Junior famously failed the bar

476
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 2: multiple times. But the difference for JFK. Junior is he's

477
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,679
Speaker 2: working in the Attorney General's office at the time that

478
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 2: he is failing it, but he's also relishing his status

479
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 2: as a hunk and someone very visible. Yeah, you don't

480
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 2: play football the time in Central Park and Washington Square

481
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 2: Park shirtless if you don't want to get snapped by

482
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 2: the paparazzi.

483
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 1: Obviously, a big thing with him was that he biked everywhere.

484
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: Yes in the show, a huge kind of recurring motif

485
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 1: is that he never has a lock for his bike,

486
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: so he just keeps losing bikes left and right.

487
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 2: And that's another part of the awes shucks. It's like,

488
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 2: why we'll use a bike all right?

489
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 1: Exactly.

490
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 2: He's been in New Yorker his whole life and he's

491
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: not using a bike lock completely.

492
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: But there is one scene where he's biking away from

493
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 1: a paparazzi but then he turns around and clearly mugs

494
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 1: for the camera. Yeah, and they're like, Okay, maybe this

495
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: show knows a little bit more than we're giving a

496
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: careful because that, to me is quintessential JFK. Junior, which

497
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: is like, I'm a man of the people. I'm rollerblading,

498
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: I'm biking, but I'm gonna literally turn around and give

499
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: you blue steel.

500
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like look at me winking at the camera.

501
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: So yeah, it opens with, you know, it's this classic

502
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: cold open, which is the most obvious possible cold open

503
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: you can have, which is the day that they die.

504
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 1: You see them boarding the plane, you see someone warn him.

505
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 1: You know, conditions are bad. You're a pilot instructor.

506
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the pilot instructor is not there.

507
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: And then of course you see them literally on the

508
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: plane that we all know as the audience is about

509
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 1: to crash. Then you get the title card, and then

510
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: we go back to early nineties when they're meeting. So yes,

511
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: JFK Junior failing the bar exam, biking around Tribeca. Carolyn

512
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: Bissett has been plucked out of nowhere because she worked

513
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 1: at a Calvin Klein stort of mall and she's now

514
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: working at.

515
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 2: The Chestnutill Mall in Massachusetts.

516
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: Oh of course, and now she is working at Calvin

517
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: Klein HQ. JFK Junior is failing the bar exam. They

518
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: keep sort of meeting and clearly having sexual chemistry, but

519
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: she is on and off dating this kind of dumb

520
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: cater waiter slash model. He is on and off dating

521
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: Daryl Hannah. They go to the launch of the big

522
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: pool based photography coffee table book Pools, which I have

523
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 1: to say I have found on eBay and I will

524
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: be purchasing. And then the third episode sort of takes

525
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: a more dramatic turn and is focused on Jackie within

526
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: one episode, going from completely healthy to having died. It

527
00:27:59,240 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: just sort of like.

528
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 2: It's fine, and then she dies.

529
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: Trucks Yeah.

530
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 2: The thing that I really do appreciate about this series,

531
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 2: and I think this is a big credit to Sarah Pigeon,

532
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 2: is I feel like getting right as far as we know,

533
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 2: the way that Carolyn besets like everyone who knew her,

534
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 2: everyone who was friends with her, who worked with her,

535
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 2: the way that they all described her was like she

536
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 2: was really lively and opinionated and like kind of demanding

537
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 2: in a little bossy, And that spark comes through in

538
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 2: Sarah Pigeon's performance, and I really thought that that made

539
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 2: the character so much more three dimensional.

540
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: Completely, And I mean it's almost like a more pared

541
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: down and grounded version of like a sexist city character.

542
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: Totally is like a high power rising exec at a

543
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: fashion label. Like that's exactly how I would imagine. You know,

544
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: she is in her own way of Carrie Bradshaw type,

545
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: just a little less naive and bumbling and bumbling. Yeah,

546
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: she's much more serious. She's like she knows exactly how

547
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: to play everyone around her. She knows how to rise

548
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 1: the ranks at the job without pushing too hard. You know,

549
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: she keeps everyone sort of at arm's length. She knows

550
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: she has to impress Calvin. You know, she knows she

551
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: has to respect Treboss, but also can go around her

552
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: when it's convenient.

553
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 2: And her job at the time that we meet her

554
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: in the series is like VIP, right, Like she basically

555
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: dressed a lot of Calvin's VIP clients. Like yeah, Benning, Yeah.

556
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: I mean this goes back to the sort of Wikipedia yes,

557
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: like obsession with historical accuracy in the show and not

558
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,239
Speaker 1: so much historical accuracy, but like, I guess what the

559
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: show wants is for you to google images of what

560
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: you see on the show and then be like, wow,

561
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: that really happens. So yeah, I mean an example of

562
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: that is, like you have a scene of Carolyn suggesting

563
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: to a Nette Benning that she were a blazer over

564
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: this sort of plane long gown, and then sure enough,

565
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: if you google it, that actually did happen at some

566
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: movie premiere in the early nineties. But speaking of the

567
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: wikipedianness of the show, we were sort of reading through

568
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: a few of the reviews of it, and a lot

569
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: of very smart people have written about it. There was

570
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: one that you wanted to talk about a little bit.

571
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,959
Speaker 2: Yes, So, if you haven't read the Jorian Stan Felix

572
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 2: review in New Yorker, I highly recommend it. I'm gonna

573
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 2: pull out some of my favorite passages here. The review

574
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 2: is called Love Story is a forgettable elegy for gen X.

575
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 2: I think she's seen all eight episodes. We have not,

576
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 2: but she makes similar criticisms to the ones that George

577
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 2: and I have laid out. There was one line where

578
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: she said there should be more grit in the story,

579
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 2: which is too rhythmically indebted to the swoon beats of Bridgerton,

580
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 2: which I think is fair enough. Having not seen Bridgerton,

581
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 2: I don't think you have to know what that means.

582
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 2: And the wikipedianist that George was just getting at she

583
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 2: also knows. She said so much of Love Story is

584
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 2: forgettable because the Wikipedia page, like narrowness on the Doomed Romance,

585
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 2: excises all that contemporary drama President Bill Clinton, invoking JFK

586
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 2: as a forefather, Ted Kennedy, the brother of JFK and

587
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: RFK recovering from the scandal of chap equittic and the

588
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 2: humiliation of a failed presidential run to become the quote

589
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: lion of the Senate. That makes the Kennedy story one

590
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 2: of a relationship to a greater culture so compelling. She

591
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: also has some of the same issues with Paul Anthony

592
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 2: Kelly's performance. She said, Kelly is much too calcitrant or

593
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 2: reverend of an actor to get at the root of

594
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: Kennedy's sexual appeal his swagger. But at least he does

595
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 2: look the part. The acting mandate was evidently to go puppy.

596
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, he really does go puppy. And it's actually funny

597
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: because it's sort of a missed opportunity because you actually

598
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: don't need to do much to make a character like

599
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: that be so like swooed worthy, Like I could imagine

600
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: in an almost heated rivalry way, you know, making him

601
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: a little more Illia, let's say, in a little less

602
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: the other one, and having him be a little more

603
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: sort of like dominating, and you know, rather than constantly

604
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: sending flowers to Carolyn, sort of looking at her across

605
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: the room and catching her off guard. Carolyn is basically

606
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: so far, at least always in control. And maybe that's

607
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: what they're setting Yeah, yeah, like, maybe that's what they're

608
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: setting up that then when they finally do get together,

609
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: she loses control because she's suddenly taken into the Kennedy orbit,

610
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: which I think narratively would make sense. But yeah, I

611
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: mean when Carolyn is basically like blowing him off, you're

612
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: kind of like, you go, girl, whereas what you should

613
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: be feeling is like this incredible erotic charge. Yeah.

614
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 2: I think what is lacking here is that the character JFK.

615
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 2: Junior should have this like animal magnetism.

616
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

617
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like there's a scene where on their first date,

618
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 2: he's like very late and she's about to leave. I

619
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 2: don't know, the fact that she ends up going to

620
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: dinner with him doesn't feel very real. I'm like, he's

621
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 2: not magnetic enough to pull this off. And I really

622
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 2: think that if Paul Anthony Kelly had played it with

623
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: like a little more juice, you'd be like, oh, well,

624
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 2: of course she's going to go on the date with

625
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 2: him anyways, even though he was so late.

626
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: I know, it's funny because on a meta level, the

627
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: character of Carolyn is in control, But then also Sarah

628
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: Pigeon is in control of each scene, and I wonder

629
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,479
Speaker 1: where the former ends in the latter begins, like how

630
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: much of it is just her acting circles around him

631
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: and him like sort of not knowing how to play

632
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: off of that. It also sort of happens with his

633
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: scenes with his mother because he again, he's like so

634
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: clearly fading into the background as you see Naomi Watts,

635
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: you know, really do her best dying acting.

636
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 2: And she'd can die with the best in them.

637
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: Oh yes, we'll be back.

638
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 2: With more United States of Kennedy after this break.

639
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: And we're back with the United States of Kennedy.

640
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 2: Dare and Saint Felix says, Ultimately, it is pigeons beset

641
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 2: that stays with you because she feels like an invention,

642
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 2: an injection of an idea, and a rejection of the

643
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 2: sphinx one. So again, it's like a rejection of the

644
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 2: Carolyn that the tabloids portrayed, which was, as we said,

645
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 2: like coke addict bitch. And I agree, I think Sarah

646
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 2: Pigeon deserves she deserves all the praise for this show.

647
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 2: One of the things that we have to talk about

648
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 2: when we talk about this show is the fact that

649
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 2: it comes at a time when everyone is like obsessed

650
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: with the so called quiet luxury aesthetic. So many of

651
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 2: the outfits that you know, once the big controversy of

652
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 2: the outfits looking bad first happened, they fired everybody. The

653
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 2: outfits that they ended up using the show are originally

654
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 2: sourced pieces. They're like either you know, the original clothes

655
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:03,479
Speaker 2: themselves or the designers that Carolyn wore. But I thought

656
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 2: Dorian has something interesting to say. She said, most anachronistically,

657
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 2: some recruit Beset as an avatar for so called quiet

658
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 2: luxury and clean girl aesthetics, recent trends that are expressions

659
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 2: not of individual personality but of discernment and discipline turned

660
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 2: menacingly inward. And I thought that was so great because Carolyn,

661
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 2: in her personal style was really averse to trends, Like

662
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 2: she wore a burken bag before it became kind of

663
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 2: the cultural icon that it would go on to become.

664
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 2: And I think that if she were around today, she

665
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 2: would not be wearing one. She would be wearing kind

666
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 2: of like the cool indie designers. She had just a

667
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 2: very strong personal style. And the clean girl aesthetic quote

668
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 2: unquote is just like it's a trend. It has nothing

669
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 2: to do with personal style, right. But what I do

670
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 2: love is, and I think what everybody loved about Carolyn

671
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 2: style is that her clothes are timeless. You look at

672
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 2: the outfits that she's wearing and they look completely appropriate

673
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 2: for today.

674
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, the clothes just are along with the different restaurants

675
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 1: they go to, the different settings, along with the Tribeca

676
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 1: exterior shots. I mean, it's just a world you want

677
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: to live in, and you almost wish there was just

678
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 1: like a documentary about that era and you could get

679
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: like really kooky talking head interviews with random women that

680
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 1: worked at you know, Calvin Klein or at or people

681
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: that worked at Georgia Magazine or whatever, because I'm sure

682
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: there were so many characters, characters that were not.

683
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 2: Getting yeah, and she was like from all accounts of her,

684
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:47,320
Speaker 2: an extremely outgoing person, like kind of an extrovert. And again,

685
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 2: maybe that's the tension that they're setting up, which is

686
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 2: that she becomes so shut down once she and jfkjun

687
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 2: You're getting married, which I think there is like somewhat

688
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 2: of a record of that. But I just really I

689
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 2: wanted to live in her world. Yeah, even more I

690
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 2: wanted to see this, like see kind of like chip

691
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 2: on her shoulder.

692
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: Gal. I think this goes back to the Wikipedia in

693
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: this of it, because I think what I'm realizing is

694
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why it feels a little boring

695
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: and a little dull, is because they almost are afraid

696
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: to stray from things that we know happened. You know,

697
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, they're they're so dedicated, and of course

698
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: they are taking artistic license with things, and as we said, the.

699
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 2: Show and they preface every episode with certain depictions are

700
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 2: fictional completely, why not just go for it?

701
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think the show is it almost feels

702
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 1: in the same way that the clothes are so good,

703
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: because it's a reaction to criticism. The entire show feels

704
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 1: almost like it's trying to preempt criticism, like it's trying

705
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: so hard to get it right in a straight a

706
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: student way that it's afraid to actually be messi in

707
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,760
Speaker 1: the way that Ryan Murphy likes being messy.

708
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: Which is so interesting because Ryan Murphy, as we alluded

709
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,439
Speaker 2: to so Jack Schlosberg called this when before it even

710
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 2: came out, he called it grotesque exploitation of his uncle

711
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 2: or whatever. And then Ryan Murphy hits back with like,

712
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 2: I can't believe you're so offended about someone you don't

713
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 2: even remember.

714
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: I mean, insane, insane.

715
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 2: Thing, and then they just had this like war little

716
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 2: war of.

717
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: Words, only for him to then release a show that

718
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: is like the most exactly sort of.

719
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 2: Like exactly that's what I That's what I was getting at,

720
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 2: is like it's actually extremely reverent to the Kennedys, like.

721
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: Of specifically JJ, because you're seeing, for example, at least

722
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 1: you see Carolyn. Again, we've only seen the first few episodes,

723
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: but I mean, you see Carolyn is actually much more

724
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: complex character by design. You see her, you do see

725
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: her party, and you do see her doing coke. You

726
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: do see her. Yes, she's super serious at work, but

727
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: she's also kind of like it's a little naughty that

728
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: she got her boyfriend to be in the Calvin Klein

729
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: campaign and it was sort of like mixing business and pleasure,

730
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: whereas JFK. Junior is so just like good boy, good son,

731
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: good boyfriend, Like, yeah's coming.

732
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 2: He never did coke.

733
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think that's coming. If that's

734
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: if we don't get to see him doing coke, I'm

735
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: gonna be very upset. Another thing though about this is

736
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: something that really kept bothering me, is they have so

737
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 1: many conversations that are about their own public perception. It's

738
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: a private conversation between Jackie and her son, and they're

739
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: talking in this very like explanatory way, as though it

740
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 1: is in front of an audience. They're talking like, you know,

741
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 1: of course the people think they have a piece of

742
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 1: us because we grew up in the spotlight.

743
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 2: Who would I have been if I wasn't America's widow.

744
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, Like, that's not how those people would talk like.

745
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: Those would be obviously things that are in the back

746
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: of their minds, but they would be unsaid. It's not

747
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: like in a normal conversation Caroline would say to her mother,

748
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: which is a thing that really happens, like and you

749
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: still don't regret marrying Daddy, even despite what you know

750
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 1: about him. Now, that's not just like a breakfast conversation

751
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: that would happen out of nowhere.

752
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 2: You know. I really think that this could have been

753
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 2: because in the first three episodes, the thing that surprised

754
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 2: me was that I was a little bored throughout some

755
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 2: of it. And I think that they could have made

756
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 2: this show so much more interesting if they had cared

757
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 2: less about the Kennedy reputation. I think it's a really

758
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 2: interesting story, like this scrappy gal who worked her way

759
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 2: up in Calvin Klein kind of entering this world of

760
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 2: American royalty slash vultures like completely.

761
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: In fact, I actually think to me, it would be

762
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,760
Speaker 1: much more interesting if it wasn't framed as love story

763
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: and it was in fact framed as like.

764
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 2: This Carolyn story.

765
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 1: Yes, and then you could really get away with portraying

766
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 1: the Kennedys as objects of her fascination or whatever, like

767
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,839
Speaker 1: if the audience is on her side, and if we're

768
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 1: following her along, it's much more interesting going to be like,

769
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: Oh my god, can you believe I just met you know, JFK. Junior.

770
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: That is so weird. He came into my office.

771
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a dramatic thing, and it could be

772
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 2: set up as like the catalyst for her downfall, which is.

773
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: Exactly what they were, Which is what they were.

774
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 2: Yes, she wouldn't have died if she ever met these people.

775
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 1: I know. It's an interesting thing to want to reclaim

776
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: her legacy or claim her as a public figure, but

777
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 1: also want to completely maintain the mythology of her great

778
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: love story with JFK. Junior. Yeah, it's a tightrope that

779
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if they're walking, you know, as well

780
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: as they think they are.

781
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I'm interested, Like I'm going to

782
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 2: keep watching it for sure.

783
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: Oh, I'll keep watching. Yeah, I think overall it's a

784
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 1: really well done series. My two main criticisms, and I

785
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: think we agree, is like a the reverence to the

786
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,240
Speaker 1: Kennedys is just it's also I think people are hungry

787
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 1: for the Kennedy mythology totally punctured, like I don't. People

788
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: will be mad if you know, you showed them in

789
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: a slightly less positive light. And then the second thing is,

790
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: and I think these are related. The second thing is

791
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: just that it is a little boring, like it is

792
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 1: just a little bit like afraid to go there in

793
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 1: terms of the more dramatic moments.

794
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we've seen this actually a few times in

795
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 2: on screen depictions of the Kennedys, where the real life

796
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 2: events were more exciting and interesting than the way they

797
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 2: are depicted on screen. And often, as was the case

798
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 2: in Thirteen Days, it's done to hoist up the Kennedy mythology.

799
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 2: And you don't have to do that. I thought we

800
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 2: agreed we don't have to do that anymore completely.

801
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,760
Speaker 1: Even the idea that JFK. Junior's issue with the media

802
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 1: is just that he's portrayed as a hunk, like you

803
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,280
Speaker 1: could have a journalist character that is out to puncture

804
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: the Kennedy mythology. You know, you could have more real

805
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: stakes than like, isn't it annoying that they only see

806
00:42:58,680 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: me as a hunk?

807
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,439
Speaker 2: I think that's the last thing I'll say about the

808
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 2: portrayal of JFK. Junior, is that I get the sense

809
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 2: from everything we know about him that and obviously that

810
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 2: he failed the New York State Bar exam twice. He

811
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,240
Speaker 2: did not really want to be a lawyer. He wanted

812
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,879
Speaker 2: to be an actor, and they should have let him

813
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 2: be an actor because he was I don't know, there

814
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 2: was kind of like again, like a swaggering dumb guy

815
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 2: confidence that he had that I really wish we had

816
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 2: seen more of, and I think it would make the

817
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,240
Speaker 2: character make more sense in the show well completely.

818
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: And in fact, I think if he's not going to

819
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 1: be an actor, then that could come through when he's

820
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: pitching his magazine, for example, like it is such a privileged,

821
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: hot guy thing to do to think, Okay, I can't

822
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: be a lawyer. I'm not going to be a politician.

823
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 1: What can I do. I'm going to start a magazine

824
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: and I'm going to put Cindy Crawford on the cover

825
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,399
Speaker 1: address as George Washington, Like that is such a puppy dog,

826
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 1: Oh shucks kind of guy. I would not have that idea.

827
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: So you can't have the scene where he's pitching it

828
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,439
Speaker 1: be like he's a genius and he's misunderstood. It has

829
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: to be he's like a little bit delusional. He might

830
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 1: also be a genius. You can be like, actually, he's

831
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: the perfect person to start this magazine because he grew

832
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 1: up in politics. Whatever you can it can be a

833
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 1: little more generous towards his intentions, but it needs to

834
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: show a little bit that he has a little bit

835
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 1: of delusion in him. You know, he has a little

836
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,439
Speaker 1: bit of like hot guy. You know, John Hammond thirty

837
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: I rock, like totally, I have this stupid idea, but

838
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 1: I think it's genius because no one has ever told.

839
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 2: Me no, right And also like I mean, if you

840
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 2: have ever interacted with like son of privilege, prep school guy,

841
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 2: that is a degree of confidence and often delusion that

842
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 2: is very easy to replicate in writing, Like you know

843
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 2: who that guy is, and you know that JFK. Junior

844
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 2: had that in him, and.

845
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: Those guys can be charming. You know. It doesn't really

846
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: need to be a villain.

847
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 2: He's not Yeah, he doesn't have to be a villain,

848
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 2: but again there's should be some magnetism and there should

849
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 2: be some swagger.

850
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, truly more than any other character. The JFK

851
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: Junior character is basically portrayed as a sweet, nice and

852
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: passive person, yes to whom things happen, even Jackie, for

853
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,240
Speaker 1: how generous the portrayal is, you do see her flaws.

854
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: I mean, she has a conversation with Caroline where it's

855
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 1: very clear that she favors John over Caroline, and she

856
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: has certain issues with you know, approving or not approving

857
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 1: of the various partners. I think it's very damning that

858
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: she decides to, you know, do the whole theatrics of

859
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,399
Speaker 1: oh I'm not feeling well, I'm not going to come

860
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,359
Speaker 1: to dinner. Yeah, with the like, she's definitely portrayed as

861
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 1: like a tough cookie. There's some flaws there with JFK Junior.

862
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 1: It's almost like they're afraid to show that he has flaws.

863
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 2: Which is crazy. It's just it's crazy. Again, it can

864
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 2: have made for such a more interesting show.

865
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I have to say, you know, I know

866
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 1: we're ending on a sort of negative note, but both

867
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: of us Generally speaking, I think are enjoying this show.

868
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: I'm excited to watch the new episode this week. I

869
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: think it's really fun to watch everyone get into these roles,

870
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: especially Naomi Watts and Sarah Pigeon.

871
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 2: It's making me want to go blonde so badly, and

872
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 2: my husband keeps having to say no.

873
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: I mean, especially with the bangs. You would be more

874
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 1: Daryl Hannigan, Carolyn. But just when you thought you knew

875
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 1: Ryan Murphy's bag of tricks, he suddenly goes from All's

876
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 1: fair to this. Yeah.

877
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 2: You know, he does always keep us guessing, and I appreciate.

878
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: That about it, jipsus guessing. Yeah. One final thing, A

879
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: little fun fact that I discovered on my own is

880
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: that the guy his name is Michael Bergin. He is

881
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 1: the model that Carolyn dates in the first three episodes

882
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 1: and she gets him a Calvin Klein underwear campaign. So

883
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: he was an underwear model. I looked him up and

884
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:52,320
Speaker 1: he now is a realtor in LA with Compass. Compass

885
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 1: the realtor like in a real estate company. Yeah, just

886
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 1: has like four thousand followers and is just like a

887
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 1: realtor in LA in his fifties. No, and I and

888
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: you followed him. He doesn't even have a following of

889
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 1: people that are like fascinated by his past. He just

890
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: is like a normal guy who's a dad and is

891
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: a realtor.

892
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:09,879
Speaker 2: Oh okay, And the last thing I want to say

893
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 2: is I've really been looking for anachronisms in the dialogue,

894
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 2: because that is something we can really or I guess

895
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 2: I've been looking for it, but I've had my years

896
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 2: perked for them, and the only one that I found

897
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 2: in the first three episodes was and this is debatable,

898
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:29,479
Speaker 2: but when JFK. Junior is calling Carolyn over and over again,

899
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 2: she's not picking up, and then he runs into her.

900
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 2: He says, I left you like fifty voicemails, and I

901
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 2: think it would have been I left you like fifty

902
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 2: messages on your machine. I don't think anybody was saying

903
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 2: voicemails back then. Oh interesting, We'll see, we'll see, We'll

904
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 2: see if I catch any others. But other than that,

905
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 2: it was actually pretty good.

906
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to see everyone on deep Pop when

907
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 1: I try to get my hands on a nineties Calvin

908
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: Klin suit for my next for next time I attend

909
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 1: the wedding. Needless to say, I looked up The Fool's

910
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: Coffee table Book and on Amazon the used copies are

911
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 1: up to like four hundred dollars. Of course, of course,

912
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 1: all right, well we are going to keep watching and

913
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,240
Speaker 1: you know, we'll see if it sort of keeps going

914
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: in this vein, then maybe we don't need to talk

915
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: about them on the podcast again. But if it goes

916
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: off the rails, and you know, we're on episode.

917
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 2: Seven, yeah, I would be totally open to doing a

918
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 2: second episode on this because I'm having a lot of fun.

919
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:23,919
Speaker 2: I love talking about TV. I love TV.

920
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,479
Speaker 1: No, it's great, it's great. It's good to have something

921
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 1: to do in the evenings.

922
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 2: It's good to make the nights a little less lonely.

923
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: That's right.

924
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 2: So that's it for this week's episode.

925
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: Subscribe and follow the United States of Kennedy for all

926
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: things Kennedy every week.

927
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 2: United States of Kennedy is hosted by me, Julia Clair

928
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 2: and George Savers.

929
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: Original music by Joshua Tapolski.

930
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 2: Editing by Graham Gibson.

931
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: Mixing and mastering by Doug.

932
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 2: Vain, Research by Dave Bruce and Austin Thompson.

933
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: Our producer is Carmen laurent.

934
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,240
Speaker 2: Our Executive producer is Jenna Cagle.

935
00:48:58,440 --> 00:48:59,720
Speaker 1: Created by Lyra Smith.

936
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,439
Speaker 2: United States of Kennedy is a production that I heard

937
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 2: podcast