WEBVTT - From the Vault: Overconfidence, Part 1 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:08.200 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind. My name 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:11.840 is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.200 Time to go into the vault for a classic episode 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:19.320 of the show. This originally aired February ended. Is about 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:23.239 over confidence. Oh yeah, this one's interesting to look back on, 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.119 because I think when we recorded this we were, in 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:28.120 a way, we were a little bit overconfident. We we 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:31.920 imagined that we would perhaps still be recording together in 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:36.000 a studio um for the rest of the year, or 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:38.120 at least we would come back before the year ended. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:42.680 And uh, that did not come to pass. The greatest 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:46.880 plans of podcasters and men, they all are, don't I 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:51.199 don't know how that saying ends. All right, well, I 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:56.279 know how this podcast begins. So let's jump right in. 0:00:56.280 --> 0:01:00.960 In tedious exile now too long detained dead lists languished 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:04.720 for his native land. The sea foreclosed his flight. Yet 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:08.199 thus he said, though earth and water, in subjection laid 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:12.280 oh cruel minos thy dominion, B will go through air, 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:16.240 for sure, the air is free. Then to new arts. 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:19.440 His cunning thought applies, and to improve the work of 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:23.520 nature tries a row of quills and gradual order placed 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:27.200 rise by degrees in length from first to last. As 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:31.240 on a cliff, the ascending thicket grows or different reads 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:35.120 the rural pipe compose. Along the middle runs a twine 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:38.959 of flax. The bottom stems are joined by pliant wax, 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:43.800 thus well compact. A hollow bending brings the fine composure 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:48.560 into real wings. His boy, young Icarus, that near him stood, 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:53.240 unthinking of his fate, with smiles, pursued the floating feathers 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:56.720 which the moving air bore loosely from the ground and 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:01.040 wasted here and there, or with the wax, and pertinently played, 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:04.960 and with his childish tricks, the great design delayed the 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:08.760 final master stroke at last imposed, and now the neat 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:13.600 machine completely closed. Fitting his pinions. On a flight, he 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:18.440 tries and hung self balanced and the beaten skies. Then 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:21.799 thus instructs his child, My boy, take care to win 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:25.120 your course along the middle air. If low the surge 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:28.280 is wet your flagging plumes. If high the sun the 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:32.760 melting wax consumed, steer between both, nor to the northern skies, 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:36.520 nor south orion. Turn your giddy eyes, but follow me. 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:40.640 Let me before you lay rules for the flight and 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:44.640 mark the pathless way. Then teaching with a fond concern 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:48.280 his son. He took the untried wings and fixed them on, 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:52.080 but fixed with trembling hands, and as he speaks, the 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:56.120 tears rolled gently down his aged cheeks. Then kissed and 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.720 in his arms embraced him fast, but knew not this 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.400 brace must be the last. And mounting upward as he 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:06.639 wings his flight back on his charge, he turns an 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:10.920 aching sight as parent birds when their first callow care 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:14.600 leave the high ness to tempt the liquid air, then 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:18.200 cheers him on and oft with fatal art, reminds the 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:21.840 stripling to perform his part. These as the angler at 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:25.600 the silent brook, or mountain shepherd leaning on his crook, 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.760 or gaping plowman from the veil descries, they stare and 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:34.080 view them with religious eyes, and straight conclude them gods, 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.600 since none but they, through their own azure skies could 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:41.440 find a way. Now delos Paros on the left are 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:45.760 Scene and Samos, favored by Jove's haughty queen. Upon the 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:49.520 right the isle of Lebenthos named and fair Calumny for 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:53.320 its honey famed. When now the boy, whose childish thoughts 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:57.480 aspire to loftier aims and make him ramble higher, grown 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:01.960 wild and wanton, more emboldened flies far from his guide 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:05.880 and source. Among the skies, the softening wax that felt 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:09.480 a nearer son dissolved a pace and soon began to 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:13.760 run the youth in vain. His melting pinions shakes, his 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:18.200 feathers gone no longer air. He takes oh father, Father, 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.200 as he strove to cry down to the sea. He 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:24.799 tumbled from on high and found his fate, yet still 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:32.480 subsists by fame among those waters that retain his name. 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:35.760 Welcome stuff to blow your mind. A production of I 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:44.320 Heart Radios has to work. Hey, are you welcome to 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:46.520 stuff to blow your mind? My name is Robert Lamb 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:49.200 and I'm Joe McCormick. And that was of course from 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:54.160 Ovid's Metamorphoses. The Garthen Dryden translation the story of Dadalus 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.000 and Icarus one of our favorites that actually, i'd say 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.440 is a sort of recurring theme on invention as well. 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:01.919 It was one of our I believe we wanted to 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:05.200 originally call the show data lists in fact uh, and 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:08.200 it was decided that that was to obscure. The business 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:12.560 masters were like, people will not know what that is. Um, 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:15.720 you know, I enjoyed reading through this uh, this excerpt 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.880 from from ovid here, because even though we have talked 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:22.520 at length about data lists and Nichris before and or 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:24.280 at least in passing, you know, bringing up just sort 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:26.720 of the metaphor and the invention and talked we've talked 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:31.080 about data lists, other uh inventions and myth as well. 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:34.400 But this, this reading, I think is is rather nice 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:38.200 because it also captures the humanity of the characters. And 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:42.000 and certainly as a father, you know, I can certainly 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:44.159 relate to some of these feelings as he's trying to 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:48.920 prepare his boy for the challenges ahead. There's real passion, 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:51.880 and there's passion and the different concerns of the father 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:54.919 and the son. The father wants freedom, wants escape, and 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:58.880 he wants safety, and the son wants fun. It's basically 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:03.920 um catste even song, father and son, but in in 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.040 in mythic form. Now, there are a lot of themes 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.920 you could get into when discussing the story of Icarus 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:11.039 and Dadalus. So one of the main themes, of course, 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:13.920 that people draw out of this story is the theme 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:19.719 of over confidence and over confidence leading to disaster, right, yes, 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:21.880 and so that is going to be our main focus 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:24.279 for these episodes. We were pretty excited about it. We 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:27.520 did no research and and we think we can we 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:29.440 can probably get four or five episodes out of this, 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:31.760 so we can just wing it, you know, you know, 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:35.080 winging it. Yes, yes, that is what it is. I 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:37.440 think that is maybe I wonder if that's where the 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:40.200 phrase comes from. You're just winging it like Icarus. I 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:42.440 don't know. Okay, well, if you got lost in the 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:46.599 English couplets there of Garth and Dryden and so forth, Robert, 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:48.799 could you just give a brief summary of what actually 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.360 happens in the myth of Icarus and Daedalus. Yeah, yeah, 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:54.719 just breaking it down to the major plot points here. Um. 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:59.000 These these are artificial wings crafted by the master engineer Daedalus, 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:02.240 and then he, uh, he helps his son Icarus put 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:05.560 them on. They're using these to escape from Minos. He 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:07.880 who is the master of the Maze and the master 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:11.480 of the Minotaur. Um and uh so you know, he 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:14.720 puts these these amazing wings on him. But then Icarus 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:17.000 flies too close to the sun, the rays melt the 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:19.480 wax and he falls to his death. And he's been 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.960 specifically warned, Yeah, don't fly too close to the sun, 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:25.679 it's gonna melt the wax. You're gonna plummet and fall. 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.960 But he still flies too high. He flies beyond the 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:34.120 the his ability, flies beyond the engineering constraints of the wings, 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:36.840 and perishes for it. I love the word choice in 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:39.680 the poem in the English version. He wants to ramble higher. 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:42.600 He's he's having fun, he's out there. He's like, it'll 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:45.320 be fine. Yeah. And I think one of the key 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:47.160 things to keep in mind about the Smith, if we're 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:50.480 looking at it and focusing on over confidence, is that 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:54.960 Daedalus is a master uh at at creating these wings, 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:58.200 and Icarus is no slouch at flying with them, obviously, 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:00.400 So it's not a you know, an imperor his new 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:05.880 clothes scenario where one is confident, you know, with without 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:08.840 any underlying skill, Like there's plenty of skill to go 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.440 around here. But the idea is that chorus as sends 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:14.360 just a little too high, he he goes to that 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:18.200 place that he has warned two road to to avoid, 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:20.600 and that is his downfall. Even though there is a 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:24.560 real basis for confidence, the confidence in the brain exceeds 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:28.240 the confidence warranted by circumstances. But then that becomes the 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:31.800 whole focus of the myth. Right, nobody stops to admire, like, hey, 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:34.800 datal Is really built some amazing wings and Acharus was 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:37.240 really great at flying them. Now we just focus on 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:39.400 the fact that he dies and falls into the ocean. 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:43.640 And this very idea of like overconfidence, that you know, 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:47.360 that that meets a tragic end is such a powerful 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:51.320 and common theme of myths and drama throughout history. Yeah, 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.120 myths and drama and of course human histories, which of 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:59.800 course involved both myth making and dramatic storytelling telling. But 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:02.200 there's just so much of it. It's such a frequent 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:04.920 trope that on one hand, it's easy to just not 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:07.040 think about it, like this is just what happens in 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.800 our stories. So, you know, we either can't get enough 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:14.800 of tales of hubrists and uh and over confidence, or 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:17.960 it's just such a common feature of human enterprise and 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:21.720 ambition that is just a necessary plot point in almost 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:25.040 any tale worth telling. Yeah, I think it's not a 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:30.040 coincidence that so many figures from history display hubris and overconfidence, 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.360 because I think overconfidence is the kind of trait that, 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:36.800 in a lot of cases specifically is what gets you 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:40.480 into the history books and h and from a historical 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:43.040 point of view, um you know, granted, is not always 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:45.320 a simple matter, because you know, when you encounter the 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:48.480 all too frequent tales of an overconfident but a net ruler, 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.559 you have to consider that you know, uh, these you know, 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:53.800 the history is told by the victors, and this is 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:57.240 likely you know the story about about about a deposed ruler. 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:00.360 But sure enough, you look at any um you know 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:04.880 history of kings and emperors, you will inevitably find multiple 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:07.920 examples of someone who has pointed out for their overconfidence 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:10.960 like this, this ruler became too overconfident and that was 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:13.920 their downfall. And of course the world of mythic expression 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:17.760 is just full of wonderful examples to chew on. One 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.680 that certainly comes to mind in Judeo Christian traditions and 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:24.680 especially in Milton's literary treatment of the character, is that 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:28.840 of Satan, like the classic character who who you know, 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:32.120 was prideful enough to rebel against the all powerful creator 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:34.960 God and uh and then falls for it. And that 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.559 is actually a concept from the Bible itself, from the 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:40.640 from the Tanaka, I mean, in Proverbs sixteen eighteen, you 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.880 get pride go with before destruction, the haughty spirit before 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:46.720 a fall. Yeah uh, and then of course we already 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:49.000 talked about about Icarus. But yeah, You'll find plenty of 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:53.800 examples of God's smiting immortal underlings or mere mortals for 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:58.839 defying them. And often their central crime is basically they 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:01.720 that they dared to think themselves greater than they are. 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:05.640 They overstepped their status in place in the Grand hierarchy. 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:08.320 In fact, in addition to to Icarus, I think at 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:11.079 least two tales are worth pointing out, But these are 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:15.360 by far not the only stories of God's punishing mortals 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.760 and immortals for overstepping their boundaries. One of my favorites 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:22.319 is the Web of Arachney. So this is this is 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:25.520 a wonderful tale in which you have the mortal Arachney 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:29.280 who challenges athena goddess of wisdom and crafts, to a 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.400 weaving contest, which, of course is always a terrible thing 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:36.320 to do. Never challenge a god to a contest unless 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:39.000 it's a fiddle contest, and that God is the devil 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.000 and you're down in Georgia, right, And then yes, maybe 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:43.640 you can pull it off in the in that in 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:48.920 that specific scenario. Um but but but in this scenario, 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:50.600 you know, you're not dealing with the devil, You're dealing 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:54.679 with the goddess Athena. And so Athena, as one might expect, 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:59.400 crafts a perfect tapestry, resplendent and depictions of the god's 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:06.599 punishing mortals for their hubrists, and Arachne creates unequally awesome tapestry. 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:10.160 But hers depicts all the various ways that the gods 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:14.199 have manipulated and tormented mortals. Um, so she's getting a 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:18.240 little fresh. Yeah. Well, they're both putting a lot of uh, 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.880 you know, a lot of emotion into their their work 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:24.080 here there, and they're both kind of taunting the other 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:28.000 with their subject matter. The problem is Arachne is immortal 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:30.680 and Athena is a god. Uh. And of course the 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.800 Greek gods are not known for their reasonable demeanor, So 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:36.240 don't play fair, right, they don't, And so Athena doesn't 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:40.760 play fair. Instead, she becomes enraged, She destroys Arachne's work, 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:45.080 beats her, and leaves her to suicidal shame. And after 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:49.000 she has died, Arachne becomes the spiders of Earth. And 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.880 that's kind of the origin story for spiders and and 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:56.600 so forth biological ideological myth. Right, it tells why spiders weave. Yeah. 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:58.720 But but one of the interesting wrinkles in all of 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.640 this is that both the streets are accurate from their 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:04.840 creator's points of view, that the ending to this story 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:08.120 is either yet another example of the god's cruelty or 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:12.760 another example of mortals being rightfully punished for their pride. Um. 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:19.120 And again, much like the chorus scenario, Arachney is highly skilled, 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:24.319 like she crafts a work that rivals or even equals, 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:28.920 or or perhaps even surpasses the work of the goddess. Uh. 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.040 So she may not have have overstepped her ability, but 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.240 she certainly oversteps her place. Right, It's a different kind 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:37.760 of pride. She wasn't over confident, and how good of 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.920 a weaver she is, she was over confident in what 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:44.760 she could get away with saying yeah. And then, of course, 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:47.480 another example, in one that we come back to again 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:50.680 and again on the show, is that of Prometheus. Uh. Prometheus, 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.800 the Titan, having stolen from the gods the secret of fire, 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:59.000 defied them in giving this secret to the mortals. Uh. 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:02.480 He is then punished for all eternity for this sin. Yeah. 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:04.280 Another one that comes to my mind is the myth 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:08.439 of Feton, the son of the god Helio. So remember 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:10.640 he wants to pilot the chariot. He's like, I want 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:13.240 to get in the chariot, but uh, he's warned it 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:15.240 would not be a good idea, and he's like, no, no, 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:17.720 I can handle it. I can Yeah, I can drive. 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:21.360 And he gets in there and the horses, I don't 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.240 remember exactly what happens, like the horses don't recognize him 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.520 or something. They go nuts, and the chariot crashes into 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:30.280 the earth or something, or right there, there's general disaster. 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:32.840 Right yeah, that's a good one. And then then there 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:35.600 are various other tales as well that that we could 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.240 we could we could focus on, because again it's just 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:42.480 a recurring theme in Greek mythology, but but also you know, 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:46.200 other belief systems as well, like, for instance, just briefly, 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:50.160 there's a fun Chinese example of pride and punishment in 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:54.000 which the Yellow Emperor makes use of of ying long 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:57.480 that the responding dragon to execute the god of war 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:01.160 Chi you after we dared to a's arms against the 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.440 Yellow Emperor. So there that would be a tale of 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:06.200 the god of war being overconfident in his ability to 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.240 overthrow the king. Yeah, so many times you do see 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.000 a more of a militant example of this, you know, 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:15.160 the idea that, oh, you think you can defeat the God, 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.040 that you cannot, and you're punished for that um either, 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:20.160 you know, and in other times it's a contest or 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:23.520 something to that effect. One thing that I love in 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:27.640 the Greek conception of of hubris is that there was 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:32.240 a goddess that existed purely to splatter people who displayed 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:35.640 arrogance and over confidence. And this was the goddess Nemesis, 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:37.960 who I really think we we I wish we had 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:41.600 a Nemesis today. Uh So I found I was looking 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:44.520 around for stuff about Nemesis, and I found this amazing 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:48.480 thing that was a a hymn to the goddess Nemesis, 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:52.160 composed by somebody from ancient Greece named Mesomades. And this 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:56.040 is a translation by somebody named d Yelled. So I've 0:15:56.040 --> 0:16:00.160 got to read this. This, this boiled my brain. Winged Nemesis, 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:04.320 turner of the scales of life, blue eyed goddess, daughter 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:08.560 of Justice, who with your unbending bridle dominate the vain 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:13.200 arrogance of men. And loathing man's fatal vanity, obliterate black 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:17.440 envy beneath your wheel, unstable and leaving no imprint. The 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:20.800 fate of men is tossed you, who come unnoticed in 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:24.920 an instant to subdue the insolent head. You measure life 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:28.200 with your hand and with frowning brows, hold the yoke. 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:32.800 Hail blessed, immortal Goddess, winged Nemesis, turning the scales of 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:39.840 life imperishable and holy Goddess Nemesis. Victory of unfurled wings. Powerful, infallible, 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:43.720 who shares the altar with justice and furious at human pride, 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:48.080 casts a man into the abyss of Tartarus. Yeah. When 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:50.600 I read that at home the other day, I like 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:54.800 literally exclaimed out loud. Um. While I'm not usually a 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.480 big like cast people into Tartarus kind of guy, you know, 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:00.400 I don't love like eternal torment and hell and all that, 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:03.360 I do kind of wish for animesis sometimes to like 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:07.160 fly in, scoop up the fatally vein and arrogant leaders 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.840 who you know, inflict their over confidence on everybody else 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:13.760 and kind of just toss him under the wheel. Yeah, 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:17.000 I I too love this concept of a nemesis. Uh. 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:20.359 It's also a frequent subject of paintings. You'll see a 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:22.919 lot of you know, European paintings of an nemesis that 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:28.320 really uh to take advantage of these angelic properties that 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:32.560 are described here, this winged uh female form that is 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:36.359 beautiful and terrifying, an embodiment of something kind of like karma, 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:39.920 you know, divine retribution, the goddess that comes to avenge 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:42.840 against you when you become too prideful. Though, I do 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.399 think it's actually more complicated than we usually think of 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.560 hubris in the modern sense, right, because like the way 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:52.360 we use hubris, it really does just generally mean like pride, arrogance, 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.520 and overconfidence. But I think you were looking into something 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:58.560 about how the ancient Greeks had a more complicated and 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:03.040 specific definition it gets it gets interesting. I was looking 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:07.720 at at the Oxford Classical Dictionary, and as N. R. E. 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:13.680 Fisher pointed out, it was really more of intentionally dishonoring behavior. 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.840 And the author points to Aristotle is providing a solid 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:22.439 understanding of Greek hubrists. So Aristotle contends that Hubrists was 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:26.440 quote doing and saying things at which the victim incurs shame, 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:29.720 not in order that one may achieve anything other than 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:32.600 what he's done, but simply to get pleasure from it. 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.399 For those who act in return for something do not 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:39.560 commit hubris, They avenge themselves. The cause of the pleasure 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:43.080 for those committing hubrists is that by harming people, they 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:46.240 think themselves superior. That is why the young and the 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.880 rich of humoristic as they think they are superior when 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:54.080 they commit hubris. This is so it's just sadism. Yeah, Basically, 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:57.280 it's just like being mean for mean sake and being 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:00.400 like hurting people in the dishonorable way. And I think 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:04.960 specifically because it makes you feel superior, right, Yeah, And 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:07.000 and it is also worth noting that like this is 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:10.440 apparently really key to the system of honor and dishonor 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:13.560 that which really important to Greek society. That's right, I think. 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:15.880 I mean, one thing that's kind of hard to understand 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:18.880 is like when you read ancient Greek literature, you might 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:21.359 notice that they seem to have a different idea of 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:24.720 morality than we usually do, Like for them that they're 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:28.000 concepts of morals often have more to do with with 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.679 things that are considered honorable versus things that are considered 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:35.399 say uh, for the good of others. Uh. And you 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:37.560 know it almost what you were just reading reminds me 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:39.920 of the classical Greek theory of humor, which we talked 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:43.040 about in our Plato sex Machina episode, so that Plato 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.040 and Aristotle basically said, this is hard to imagine because 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:48.960 it sounds so so hateful, But you know, these ancient 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:51.920 Greek philosophers are like, things are funny because they make 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:56.440 you realize you're superior to other people. Uh So, Plato, 0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:00.640 in his Philibus dialogue is discussing the nature of pleasure, 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:03.280 and he says, you know, there are different kinds of pleasures. 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:06.720 He's talking about why pleasures of the mind are better 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:09.760 than pleasures of the flesh, of the of the body. 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:12.960 And he's talking about laughing at people, and he says, 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:15.040 you know, one of the main things that's great about 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:16.840 laughing at people is that you can laugh at people 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:20.240 who don't recognize their own misfortune. So there are people 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.080 who are stupid but they think they're smart, or there 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:25.680 are people who are ugly but they think they're handsome, 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:28.880 and that's really funny, right. Yeah. But in in in 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:32.200 this it gets more specifically into the use of violence 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.760 um and Hebrews was taken very seriously in Athens, as 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:38.880 there was a law of hubris in this context, I've 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:41.600 seen it define more specifically and in this kind of 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:44.720 this is basically what Aristotle said, but an even shorter 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:48.040 version would be the intentional use of violence to humiliate 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:50.960 or degrade again, kind of a sadism thing. It's like 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:54.080 I'm better than you, and I'll show you by hurting you. Yeah. 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:57.160 And and in Athens, unlike murder charges which could only 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:00.439 be brought forth by the family of the victim, charges 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:04.080 of hubrists, like charges of treason or impeity, could be 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:07.640 leveled by anyone at anyone. So it's we're talking about 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:11.560 shameful conduct that ultimately threatens the shame on or building 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:15.240 blocks of society itself. You know, I do see a connection, 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:17.399 even though that this is different than what we usually 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:20.240 think of as hubrist. I see what's going on here, 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:25.320 like I see the the conceptual link, the link between pride, arrogance, 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:28.080 over confidence on one hand and sadism on the other. 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:32.160 I mean, it's sadism almost seems to kind of imply 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:37.080 and assumed pride and arrogance and over confidence. It assumes 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:40.320 a world view without stating it that one is, you know, better, 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:43.240 more deserving than other people, and that their faiths are 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:46.159 subordinate to your own. Yeah, that it is. It is 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:48.880 weird to think of this from like a modern standard, 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:52.760 because you know, I can think of numerous examples of individuals, 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:56.359 especially like popular celebrity type individuals, where you think of 0:21:56.359 --> 0:21:58.400 them and you think, oh, well, that person is clearly 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:02.240 guilty of hubre us, and yet by the Greek definition, 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:05.000 I don't know if they actually used violence against someone. 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:07.840 Like one of the examples, a political example that was 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:11.800 brought up was like if if one politician struck another 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:15.520 during a speech, like that's but I don't know. In 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:17.479 ancient Greece, maybe that was that was an easier thing 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:19.280 to occur in Certainly they're examples of things like that 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:23.280 occurring in American political history, but uh, I mean not 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:27.680 recently so but well no, but I mean I think, yes, 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:30.359 you're not coming to physical violence. But I could say 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:33.119 that that's an extension of the impulse you see, and 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:36.800 just sort of like bullying and blatant disrespect and all that, 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:41.080 where you're you are assuming a position of superiority that 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:43.840 denies that you would even have to to speak on 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:47.200 another person's terms. Yeah, so I think we see plenty 0:22:47.240 --> 0:22:50.400 of examples of things that are certainly in the spirit 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:54.440 of of Greek Cubrists, but not the definition of actual 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:57.760 physical violence. They fall short of that, but perhaps not 0:22:57.800 --> 0:22:59.800 by much. All Right, on that note, we're going to 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:02.239 say our first break. But when we come back, we 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:04.880 will will get further into this question of over confidence, 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:09.040 and we'll start we'll start looking at it beyond mythology 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:12.919