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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Monday, September twenty second, and

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Speaker 2: we hope you had a great one so far. Thank

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Speaker 2: you for being with us. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here as

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Speaker 2: always with Courtney Armstrong and Body Moven and yes, we

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Speaker 2: have a stabs night of headlines on this happy Monday,

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Speaker 2: so listen. Alex Acosta, the US District attorney responsible for

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Speaker 2: Epstein's controversial air quotes Sweetheart Deal, faced the House Oversight

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Speaker 2: Committee on Friday and we have yet to unpack that. Also,

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Speaker 2: Luigi Mangioni, his lawyer, wants the death sentence provisions off

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Speaker 2: the table period. He's been back in court controversial stuff,

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Speaker 2: and we talked about it a couple of weeks ago

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Speaker 2: when we were talking about the documentary Unknown Caller and

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Speaker 2: the idea of Munchausen's disease or syndrome or Munchausens by

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Speaker 2: Internet as it's now been named, and we all wanted

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Speaker 2: to know more. We heard about that a little bit

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Speaker 2: when it came to Gypsy Rose and her mother suffered

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Speaker 2: from this. So we have an expert who's with us today,

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Speaker 2: also a survivor of Munchausens. So we're going to do

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Speaker 2: a very deep dive into that in the second hour.

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Speaker 2: But first let's talk about the latest in all things Epstein,

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong welcome, fill us in. There is a lot

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Speaker 2: to get to.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, former US Attorney Alex Acosta, he testified on Friday,

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Speaker 3: and as you said, it was behind closed doors to

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Speaker 3: the House Oversight Committee. This was to defend his two

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Speaker 3: thousand and seven plea deal with Jeffrey Ebstein. So acostam

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Speaker 3: there were evidentiary weaknesses. Jeffrey Epstein, of course, is the

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Speaker 3: wealthy financier, and he and his long term associate Gillen Maxwell,

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Speaker 3: orchestrated an extensive, many decades running sex trafficking operation that

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Speaker 3: targeted girls, many of them underage, often recruiting victims under

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Speaker 3: false pretenses and from high schools in some instances, and

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Speaker 3: you know they were exploited in an international sex ring.

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Speaker 3: Epstein was arrested again in twenty nineteen, but he died

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Speaker 3: in jail. Circumstances are very suspicious. Officially, there is no

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Speaker 3: question that it was suicide, but many people who are

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Speaker 3: knowledgeable in the field have expressed their doubts with that.

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Speaker 3: And Gilain Maxwell, she was later convicted and sentenced to

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Speaker 3: twenty years in federal prison for her role in the scheme,

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Speaker 3: and as we might remember, she just recently was ungraded to.

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Speaker 2: A far more minimally lax prison. So major stuff. I mean, look,

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Speaker 2: this is major stuff. At the end of the day.

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Speaker 2: This is also kind of brought upon given all of

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Speaker 2: this cry from the public and from victims for there

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Speaker 2: being more transparency when it comes to any of the

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Speaker 2: files or documents or videotapes or audio from the Epstein files. Right,

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Speaker 2: there's this allegedly a mound of things, and everybody wants

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Speaker 2: to see it. Right. So Cash Pattel, the current FBI director, says, look,

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Speaker 2: this happened back in the day, you know, back in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, at a

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Speaker 2: different time, under a different administration, with different people. A

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Speaker 2: deal was struck, and yeah, maybe it was an air

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Speaker 2: quote sweetheart deal. Alex Acosta was the then Department of Justice, attorney,

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Speaker 2: the US attorney, I should say, and listen, that's a

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Speaker 2: brother side for the Southern District, and that's a very

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Speaker 2: high level job. Right. And now at a couple decades

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Speaker 2: we're going back in hindsight because at that time Epstein

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Speaker 2: was brought up on state charges in Southern Florida, South Florida,

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Speaker 2: not federal charges, big distinction, and those state charges allegedly

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Speaker 2: equaled kind of a wah wah in terms of it

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Speaker 2: being a real good sentence. If you'll remember, he served

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Speaker 2: maybe eighteen months. He had work release, like he got

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Speaker 2: to do things out and about in the real world

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Speaker 2: during the day and had to check into his jail

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Speaker 2: at night for shut eye, which is pretty by all standards,

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Speaker 2: outlandish for a sex offender, right who's been found guilty

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Speaker 2: and pled guilty.

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Speaker 3: So we get that, yeah, but it you know, as

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Speaker 3: you said, there has been such an outcry from really

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Speaker 3: universally in this country, and so you know, this was

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Speaker 3: really warranted for alex Acosta to have this to go

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Speaker 3: before the House Oversight Committee. So as the top federal

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Speaker 3: prosecutor in Southern Florida, it was a Costa's office that

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Speaker 3: handled federal charges, and it also depended upon cooperation with

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Speaker 3: the state prosecutors who controlled the aspects like work release.

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Speaker 3: So there was maybe a little bit of distancing that

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Speaker 3: Alex Acosta said, you know, he wasn't doing all of this,

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Speaker 3: And initially Epstein was only charged in two thousand and

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Speaker 3: six by the Palm Beach State Attorney's office with a

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Speaker 3: single state prostitution count, and yeah, which was interesting.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't been aware of it. I didn't know that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Acosta approved this two thousand and seven non prosecution agreement,

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Speaker 3: and it limited charges and required him to register, required

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Speaker 3: Epstein to register as a sex offender, but did again

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Speaker 3: rely heavily on state enforcement. So despite assurances from the

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Speaker 3: state prosecutors, the Palm Beach County authorities allowed Epstein the

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Speaker 3: work release during his jail sentence that you mentioned, Stephanie,

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Speaker 3: and over that Acosta has expressed remorse over because really

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Speaker 3: it seems like, you know, it really allowed him Epstein

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Speaker 3: to continue victimizing women and girls even while he was

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Speaker 3: right quote serving time.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that is the accusation that has been said

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Speaker 2: by many since then, which is why it's so important

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Speaker 2: that we're talking about it. It's less about looking back

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Speaker 2: and pointing the finger and more about us like really

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Speaker 2: understanding it in with the benefit of decades of time. Right,

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Speaker 2: So let's just go there for a second. Here's Acosta saying, look,

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Speaker 2: these were different times. We had some unreliable witnesses. By

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Speaker 2: the way, they were very young girls, right, we are

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Speaker 2: talking sometimes fourteen fifteen, sixteen years old? Is this young

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Speaker 2: girls in very difficult circumstances. It was a different time.

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Speaker 2: Is it possible that, you know, maybe there was in

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Speaker 2: a unified chain of command for evidence. Maybe there was,

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Speaker 2: according to Acosta, unreliable sourcing, et cetera. He's also saying

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Speaker 2: that he didn't really pay that close attention to some

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Speaker 2: of the details or read the witness statements, which is

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Speaker 2: theget let's just like pause on that and gulp and

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Speaker 2: try to move on, and that he didn't really find

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Speaker 2: them particularly credible at that time. That's a tough one

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Speaker 2: to hear, right, So out for all victims who have

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Speaker 2: not been heard and not been believed. That's a real

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Speaker 2: crush to the heart. Yeah, But is it possible that

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Speaker 2: in today's day, given the new information, perhaps he would

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Speaker 2: act differently. It appears he's saying, yes, it was poor

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Speaker 2: judgment and wish I had Okay, And I guess that's

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Speaker 2: the larger question, is what would we do differently given

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Speaker 2: the today's circumstances, Because according to Alex Acosta, these women

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Speaker 2: weren't particularly credible. Here we are now flash Froward, twenty five,

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Speaker 2: almost years later, and we have twelve women on Capitol

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Speaker 2: Hill screaming from the rooftops in Unison with the exact

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Speaker 2: same set of tales and stories, and still we're finding

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Speaker 2: it hard to believe. And that's a tough spot for victims.

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Speaker 2: It's a tough spot for victims.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I wonder if part of what Acosta

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Speaker 3: said about, you know, his potential lapse in judgment and

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Speaker 3: that he might have viewed things differently. You know, I

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Speaker 3: don't think we can minimize how big of an awakening.

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Speaker 3: Me too was so true, you know, true that really

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Speaker 3: the tides changed in a really substantive manner. So you know,

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Speaker 3: that did not exist, and it is when we thought

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Speaker 3: everyone was quote crazy, all of these women never was

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Speaker 3: at the case, but that was a pretty accepted narrative.

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Speaker 2: It's so true that has changed. Yeah, I never thought

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Speaker 2: of that.

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Speaker 4: That's a really good point to me that you know,

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Speaker 4: me too, kind of changed some tides, and it might

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Speaker 4: have you know, given the benefit of hindsight, Acosta might

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Speaker 4: have maybe handled things differently.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right, Is that what he's saying, Well, he said

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Speaker 3: he he said that he would have handled some things differently.

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Speaker 3: And there also are some reports that suggest Acosta was

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Speaker 3: advised or pressured by senior DOJ officials. I don't have

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Speaker 3: precisely any of the names, but there has been no

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Speaker 3: direct evidence that he was ordered to quote back off

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Speaker 3: of the case. Which that's interesting if that, if that

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Speaker 3: is indeed the case, who were these officials?

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Speaker 4: This is your Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. Right now, we're

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Speaker 4: right in the middle of talking about alex Acossa's testimony

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Speaker 4: before the House Oversight Committee. If you have thoughts, we

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Speaker 4: want to hear from you. Eighty to eight thirty one Crime.

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Speaker 4: I understand that it's being reported that he was kind

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Speaker 4: of combative. Is that what we're learning that he was

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Speaker 4: kind of combative? Was he defensive?

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Speaker 2: Defensive?

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Speaker 4: Defensive? Okay, so he was combative. He was just like

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Speaker 4: maybe defensive of his decisions. But I also read that

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Speaker 4: he acknowledges the mistakes that he made and says that

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Speaker 4: he definitely would or he definitely did believe the victims

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Speaker 4: and he would do things differently today, and he's kind

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Speaker 4: of admitting, yeah, yeah, I screwed up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and like, okay, so let's take that at face value.

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Speaker 2: And I think moving forward, one of the things that

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Speaker 2: seems glaring and staggering, frankly, is that if there were

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Speaker 2: inconsistent testimonies by victims, the victims were kept out of

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Speaker 2: the loop of all of this. So that's also not

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Speaker 2: allowed in today's times. You know, victims have to be

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Speaker 2: kept abreast. And remember Epstein was saved, if you will,

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Speaker 2: by this deal from facing federal charges. Fast forward years later,

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Speaker 2: he's now facing those federal charges once and for all,

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Speaker 2: which is where he dies. That's when he allegedly, allegedly

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Speaker 2: allegedly commits suicide or has his life taken. If that

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Speaker 2: had been a federal case, the victims testimony would have

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Speaker 2: been public record. Instead, it was this like facacta states

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Speaker 2: deal and this like little small case where it was

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Speaker 2: done in secrecy. And I think that's the glaring thing

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Speaker 2: that we hope to bring in today's times. Secrecy is

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Speaker 2: the problem. Right when these things happen quietly, it prevents

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Speaker 2: public accountability. It prevents accountability from those working on the case.

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Speaker 2: It also prevents accountability of victims misaccusing or not believing

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Speaker 2: the victims when they're screaming from the rifftops. You know,

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Speaker 2: that's a.

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Speaker 4: Bad thing because they're young or inexactly or petrified. They're

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Speaker 4: scared and ashamed, even that none of this is their fault,

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Speaker 4: right or even a shame of this kind of thing

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Speaker 4: happening to you might keep you quiet. And that's what's

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Speaker 4: letting these things kind of grow exactly, right, is there's

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Speaker 4: no light being shined on it, exactly.

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Speaker 3: And the concealment, the fact that the plea was concealed

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Speaker 3: from the victims, It wasn't until twenty nineteen. So what

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Speaker 3: are we talking about twelve years after the fact that

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Speaker 3: it was ruled unlawful and that you know, keeping that

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Speaker 3: information violated their federal crime victims' rights. So these victims

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Speaker 3: have been revictimized and revictimized and once again on you know,

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Speaker 3: Capitol Hill, as far as my money is worth, by

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Speaker 3: calling them unbelievable by some.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's such a terrible word to write, unbelievable.

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Speaker 2: We believe you know, if you've been victimized in any way,

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Speaker 2: we believe you. But it's a tough thing and we

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Speaker 2: just want to make sure that we're like figuring out

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Speaker 2: ways to sort of make these types of things not

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Speaker 2: happen again. Again, everybody wants transparency, but yet everything's done

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Speaker 2: in secrecy, making that impossible, and that's horrifying.

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Speaker 4: I guess I'm kind of confused a little bit. Maybe

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Speaker 4: you guys can send, you know, shed some light. What

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Speaker 4: was the purpose of this oversight committee today in Acosta testifying?

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Speaker 4: Are they trying to like, is a past the buck

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Speaker 4: kind of thing happening here?

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Speaker 2: Are they trying the word? But that's what's happening. Remember

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Speaker 2: Epstein operated over multiple presidencies, right, so you know this

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Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, correct me

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Speaker 2: if I'm respectable with Obama even right, So now you'm

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Speaker 2: alo selected in two thousand and eight, right, which is

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Speaker 2: when this deal was struck. So there's been oversight for

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Speaker 2: many a Now we're in Trump Land and everyone's saying

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Speaker 2: cash buttel everybody's like Pam Bondi's like, there's no files,

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Speaker 2: there's nothing to see prove it. Let's see it and

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Speaker 2: they're like, well, we can't because of this terrible deal

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Speaker 2: made yesteryear. Okay, let's go back to yesteryear. Hey, alex Acosta,

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Speaker 2: welcome what happened yesteryear. He's saying, I did the best

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Speaker 2: I could based on the information that I had, which

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Speaker 2: was terrible. Sorry, I kind of feel defensive and maybe

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Speaker 2: it was poor judgment. But here we are. It's not

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Speaker 2: a crime. Now we can go to today's time and say,

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Speaker 2: you see that wasn't handled well, so we can't really

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Speaker 2: do anything about it. It's not us, it's them. And

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Speaker 2: then this loop continues, and in this loop, the victims

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Speaker 2: are still begging to transparency, and it's like this game

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Speaker 2: about just so the files, and like, yes, the federal

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Speaker 2: trial never happened because Epstein's life, whether he took it

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Speaker 2: himself or was taken by another allegedly allegedly allegedly those

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Speaker 2: their testimony never happened. So it's not public record. And

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Speaker 2: we're back in the same loop. Wow, do you think

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Speaker 2: we'll ever get out of it? Yes? I do? I

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Speaker 2: know you think they are going to show the files? Yes,

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Speaker 2: I do, you do?

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Speaker 5: I do?

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Speaker 2: I do? Maybe even this faith, yes I do. This week,

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Speaker 2: maybe this week. What do you know, I'm a fortune.

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Speaker 2: I have taking my head out of the scared, fearful

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Speaker 2: nothing is working mode and going into proactive and all

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Speaker 2: things are possible, and I believe it's the truth.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know what, Stephanie, I'm here for it. I'm

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Speaker 4: hoping you're right. Well, stick around, We're going to continue

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Speaker 4: discussing this case and how Sarah Ferguson, remember Fergie Duchess

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Speaker 4: of York comes into play, and lawyers for Luigi Mandeon

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Speaker 4: seek to block the death penalty. Keep it right here

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Speaker 4: at True Crime Tonight. We're talking true crime.

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Speaker 2: All the time, so we're talking a lot about Epstein. Remember,

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Speaker 2: next hour we're also going to be unpacking Munchausen syndrome.

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Speaker 2: We talked a little bit about that, but much more

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Speaker 2: on that to come. But yeah, back to the Epstein

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Speaker 2: of it all. Alex Acosta, the former US district attorney

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Speaker 2: who basically penned or signed off on this air quotes

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Speaker 2: cushy deal that Jeffrey Epstein got back in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and seven, two thousand and eight, where he was kind

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Speaker 2: of basically slapped on the wrist and kind of giving

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Speaker 2: a very cush deal is kind of getting a lot

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Speaker 2: of criticism from all sides because maybe that deal allowed

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Speaker 2: him as a predator to continue doing what he was

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Speaker 2: doing to any other women thereafter, specifically ones that were underage. Terrible, terrible,

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Speaker 2: and they're not underage women, they're literally girls and we're

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Speaker 2: talking fourteen years old. Okay. So also, which I thought

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Speaker 2: was interesting, which also came up in a hot topic

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Speaker 2: in my head that I can't quite solve the riddle,

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Speaker 2: but I'm just sturn a missus sterin on it, is

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Speaker 2: the idea that at that time there was this infamous

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Speaker 2: co conspirator clause, basically a deal penned where Epstein's co

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Speaker 2: conspirators would not be tried or would not be investigated

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Speaker 2: or brought in for investigation. Right, that is what Geelane Maxwell,

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Speaker 2: his current co conspirator, who was looking at twenty years

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Speaker 2: on federal charges that she was found guilty of. That's

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Speaker 2: what she's claiming. Is the problem? Hey, remember that deal

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Speaker 2: back in two thousand and seven, in two thousand and eight,

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Speaker 2: and that said no co conspirators can be brought up

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Speaker 2: on charge? Is that would apply to me? What am

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Speaker 2: I doing here?

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Speaker 6: Then?

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Speaker 2: What am I doing here? Now? Add the added layer

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Speaker 2: of everybody saying, oh, we got to get those files out. Okay,

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Speaker 2: here are the files. Then we have Pam bondy oh

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Speaker 2: wait I saw the files or on my desk. Now

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Speaker 2: there's no files Cash, Buttel there was files. I saw

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Speaker 2: the files. Actually I never even really saw the files.

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Speaker 2: A lot of like, who's on first with these files?

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Speaker 2: If there was no conspiracy, why was there a co

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Speaker 2: conspirator deal in the first place? What is that? Why

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Speaker 2: the papering?

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Speaker 4: Right, You're one hundred percent correct, your thought process is right.

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Speaker 4: So everything you just said I totally agree with. Why

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Speaker 4: is Glene Maxwell serving twenty years in federal prison? Although

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Speaker 4: be you know, she's in a cush you know, farm

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Speaker 4: right now or something crochet if crocheting and you know, cooking,

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Speaker 4: Why is she serving time If there was no co

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Speaker 4: conspiracor you know, you know what I mean, if there

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Speaker 4: was nothing to be seen and there were no you know,

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Speaker 4: victims or no trafficking to people, right, what we should

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Speaker 4: condicted of?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and why can't we see those files? Why are

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Speaker 2: we not getting that information? Just to solve that riddle? Right?

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Speaker 2: So that's where I get stuck, Like to what I

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Speaker 2: get stuck there too, and I just I don't know

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Speaker 2: where the story is. And those are the only ones.

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Speaker 4: I think a lot of people are feeling the same

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Speaker 4: way stuff I think, and that's what's so hard to

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Speaker 4: get over.

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Speaker 2: In this case. Right. One of the things that's so

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Speaker 2: hard to get over in.

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Speaker 3: This case, well, there's no logic to it when you

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Speaker 3: lay it out. I mean, what you just laid out,

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Speaker 3: there's no logic to everything you said is true. And

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Speaker 3: so that's why it's so hard. You know, you're saying, oh,

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Speaker 3: it's a riddle. Yeah, of course, it just it doesn't

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Speaker 3: make any sense.

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Speaker 2: So there's got to be something that we're missing. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: And it's not us specifically. I'm telling about the general

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Speaker 4: collective in general. Collectively. There's something that we don't know

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Speaker 4: that they don't want us to know. And when I

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Speaker 4: say they, I'm you know, talking about the big bad

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Speaker 4: man have vern over us, right, something that they don't

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Speaker 4: want us to know.

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Speaker 2: I just don't know what that is.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's part of what allegedly is is what this

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Speaker 3: oversight committee was going to do, And FBI Director Cash

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Speaker 3: Bettel said the need to determine quote who dropped the

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Speaker 3: ball across federal prosecutors, local law enforcement, and the DOJ.

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Speaker 3: So allegedly they're probing what is who is at fault

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Speaker 3: within those eases?

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Speaker 4: Okay, but that doesn't answer the question though, passing it

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Speaker 4: off to two thousand and seven or two thousand and eight,

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Speaker 4: you know, prosecution doesn't answer the question of why did

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Speaker 4: you tell us there were files? Why did you tell

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Speaker 4: us there were certain names in the files? Why did

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Speaker 4: you tell us there were files on your desk? And

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Speaker 4: now we're telling you're not you know, you're telling us

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Speaker 4: are no files. It's almost like look over here instead

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Speaker 4: right now?

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Speaker 2: And that's my feel, And who's paying the bill? Like

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Speaker 2: what is the money trail here? I guess that's my

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Speaker 2: biggest Other part of that criddle is, you know, last

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Speaker 2: we all discussed this extensively. You know, it was made

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Speaker 2: as facts that JP Morgan and Deutsche Bank and some

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Speaker 2: very large banking entities. Why entities Hello myself included I

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Speaker 2: bank up both? Like what is what does that mean?

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Speaker 2: So like, let's follow the money. This is again taking

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Speaker 2: all partisan out of it. I think we've all had

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Speaker 2: plenty of that to go around in this exact surm.

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Speaker 2: So let's all table that, but follow the money and

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Speaker 2: why what is the why? Why are we all being

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Speaker 2: so weird about the files? If we care about the

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Speaker 2: victims and we believe in transparency and we have the

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Speaker 2: benefit of twenty twenty five knowledge post me to post

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Speaker 2: a new administration post, New Times post social media. We

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Speaker 2: have victims saying, please release them, release them. What's the

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Speaker 2: hold up?

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Speaker 4: I think it's because people in power or form or

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Speaker 4: power that are still running around are in those files.

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Speaker 2: I do.

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Speaker 4: I just think it's a big boys club that they

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Speaker 4: don't want anybody.

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Speaker 2: Else to have access eyes on, like I just and

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Speaker 2: how is it possible that Elaine Maxwell as recently as

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Speaker 2: today we saw in the headlines that she's off for

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Speaker 2: a stroll. Imagine she's out and about having some fresh air. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: victims after victim is you know, still dealing with the

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Speaker 2: trauma of what was a crappy sandwich dealt to them

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Speaker 2: many many years ago. How maddening is that? And also

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Speaker 2: even if you're at that low security prison where she

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Speaker 2: now is or jail, I should say, how annoying is

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Speaker 2: that that you have a sex predator convicted? I might

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Speaker 2: add hanging out crocheting with you, which doesn't happen in

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Speaker 2: the real world. That's like, actually not a thing. It's

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Speaker 2: very unusual. We were trying to find other examples of

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Speaker 2: it and personally I couldn't. If you have more info,

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Speaker 2: please call us here to day three to one crime.

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Speaker 2: But like, it doesn't seem like it's the norm.

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Speaker 7: Why I'm writ a loss for words. I don't know,

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Speaker 7: it's just why the craziest thing. Yeah, it's the craziest thing.

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Speaker 7: And it's like almost like an it's like a little

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Speaker 7: bit of an snl skit. At this point, everyone's like,

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Speaker 7: I got the files, Like, no files, pass it on.

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Speaker 7: I got the files, and then who's on first?

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Speaker 2: And it's really harrowing because again at the center are

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Speaker 2: so many victims. They're saying up to thousands of girls

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Speaker 2: listen worldwide and this was a world world wide operation,

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Speaker 2: and many of the victims back to two thousand and seven,

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Speaker 2: two thousand and eight, we're literally being targeted per their

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Speaker 2: testimony or per their you know, interviews that we've seen

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Speaker 2: on documentaries, et cetera. That there were like black cars

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Speaker 2: following them around, threats against their family, threats against them.

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Speaker 2: Imagine being seventeen years old, and there's a groomer outside

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Speaker 2: of euorp or whatever our new word is. What's our

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Speaker 2: new word for grooming? Oh gosh, we have with so

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Speaker 2: many Okay, so we should part implementing it this week.

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Speaker 2: So you know, there's a high school being targeted for

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Speaker 2: somebody to literally look for girls that maybe aren't from

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Speaker 2: homes where mom and dad has check it into often,

401
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Speaker 2: get them in the massage club for Jeffrey Epstein, and boom,

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Speaker 2: Suddenly that two hundred dollars actually equals a bit of

403
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Speaker 2: a life sentence because now you've been victimized and you

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Speaker 2: can't get out of the circle.

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Speaker 3: And I think the word when we are speaking about fourteen,

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Speaker 3: fifteen and sixteen year old is grooming grooming because the

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Speaker 3: distinction week because these are children. What we'd been talking

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Speaker 3: about was older and that was that was what a

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Speaker 3: coercive manipulation.

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Speaker 2: But no, these girls were groomed.

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Speaker 3: Listen, we are talking all things Ebstein, and we're about

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Speaker 3: to bring the royals into it.

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Speaker 2: Oh, go ahead, Stephanie. I just before we even jump

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Speaker 2: off to the Royals, I just want to make one

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Speaker 2: assertion as well, because Diddy is back in court very soon.

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Speaker 2: We're osober third, I think we're looking at right and listen,

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Speaker 2: we've all talked about it's like this, it's like that.

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Speaker 2: But I do think it all is worth talking about

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Speaker 2: and unpacking. The idea of influence, money, hower silence, money

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Speaker 2: and power silencing victims is a real thing unless we

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Speaker 2: keep talking about it. And did he also doesn't have

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Speaker 2: federal charges against him. He's facing state charges and we

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Speaker 2: can debate all of that later, but something we should

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Speaker 2: be following and continuing the conversation about, because you know,

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Speaker 2: we want to make sure that there is now a

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Speaker 2: clear path, knowing what we know now in the current

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Speaker 2: day of where victims can go, how do they speak

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Speaker 2: out for them to be believed, and how do we

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Speaker 2: stop this type of thing from continuing to nausea? Right?

430
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 2: How do we give them power?

431
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 4: Right?

432
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly exactly. It's frustrating. So what's going on with

433
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 2: the royals? Sarah Ferguson.

434
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 3: Sarah Ferguson, my mother, Betty, I'd be so please for

435
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 3: talking about her. Yes, So, the Duchess of York, who

436
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 3: is the ex wife, of course, of Prince Andrew. She's

437
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 3: come under some news scrutiny after a leaked email showed

438
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 3: her describing Epstein as a quote supreme friend. Yes, and

439
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 3: yes it's weird. I found the phrasing so odd myself

440
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 3: a supreme friend. And this is despite her previous public

441
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 3: condemnation of Jeffrey Ebstein. So this revelation comes amid all

442
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,880
Speaker 3: of these ongoing scandals that involve Prince Andrew's extended contact

443
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 3: with Ebstein, the subsequent fallout from his association.

444
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 2: With Ebstein and you know everything.

445
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 3: That's the right shame he's brought upon the royal family really,

446
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 3: which I'm so interested in this that she has gone

447
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 3: from like she has turned towards Epstein in a time

448
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 3: when everyone seems to be turning away from him.

449
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 2: Wait, so this email is new, while of course this

450
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: email is new, so oh my gosh. Yeah, So okay,

451
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 2: here is what happened. So it's not new, but an

452
00:25:58,640 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 2: email in question.

453
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 3: It had to do with a twenty eleven interview with

454
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:08,360
Speaker 3: the Evening Standard newspaper, and in that she apologized. Fergie

455
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 3: apologized for accepting fifteen thousand pounds from Ebstein, and she said,

456
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 3: I abhor pedophilia and any sexual abuse of children. I

457
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 3: know that this was a gigantic error of judgment on

458
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 3: my behalf. I'm just so contrite. I cannot say so

459
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 3: this is what she said in the interview. Whenever I can,

460
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 3: I will repay the money and have nothing to do

461
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 3: with Ebstein ever again. But then the following month, Fergie

462
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 3: sent Sarah Ferguson sent an email to Jeffrey Ebstein in

463
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 3: which she humbly apologized for linking him to sex abuse.

464
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,479
Speaker 3: What yeah, and she said to him, you have always

465
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 3: been a this is quote, a steadfast, generous and supreme

466
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 3: friend to me and my family.

467
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: Okay, so he gets convicted.

468
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 4: Let me just timeline this just for a minute, if

469
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 4: that's okay. It's convicted in West Palm Beach of this

470
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 4: prostitution charge and it's very public that you know these

471
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 4: he's been implicated and fiddling with minors, right, correct, She

472
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 4: takes money fifteen thousand dollars from him in twenty eleven. Why,

473
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 4: by the way, well that's a great pause, soft pause

474
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 4: right there.

475
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 2: What's the fifteen k for? It's as like unpaid debt. Okay, well, interesting,

476
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 2: but let's put a pin for a minute. We have

477
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 2: to circle back to that. But we have to circle

478
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 2: back to it. So in twenty eleven.

479
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 4: She does this, and then she gets caught somehow and

480
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 4: she has to apologize in the Evening Standard newspaper for

481
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 4: you know, and she says, oh, I you know, he's disgusting,

482
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 4: he's a pedophal, you know whatever, Okay, and then she

483
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 4: sends him an email and says, I'm sorry I called

484
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 4: you that even though he's been basically tried and convicted

485
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 4: for these crimes.

486
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 3: That it's years after his conviction. Yeah, a spokesperson, so

487
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 3: it's four or so years after this Florida condiction. A

488
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 3: spokesperson claimed Sarah Ferguson sent the email to Jeffrey Epstein

489
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 3: after he threatened to sue due to her statement in

490
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 3: the interview. So I don't but I don't know why

491
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 3: it would be quote bad to say some of the

492
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 3: pedophile if they have been convicted for such, then it's.

493
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 2: Just a fact because she's playing both sides. And this

494
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 2: is what high power, influential people do. They pull you

495
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: in a corner and say do as I say, you

496
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 2: spoke out of line. I gave you money for we

497
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: should Definitely, I'm curious now we need to find out

498
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 2: why why is this? Like it's twenty four thousand dollars

499
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 2: I think is roughly the equivalent to the euros that

500
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: she was given. Why is Jeffrey Epstein giving Sarah Ferguson,

501
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 2: the ex wife of Prince Andrew FYI? Why is he

502
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 2: giving her cash? By the way, Prince Andrew and Sarah Ferguson,

503
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 2: not Fergie from the Black Eyed Peas, No, not Forggy

504
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 2: from the Black as a distinction, in case you're getting

505
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 2: lost in the shorthand they break up the divorce, Prince

506
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: Andrew comes down on the infamous charges brought up against

507
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 2: him by Virginia Dufrey, the blonde girl who's the lead

508
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 2: victim we've all seen the photo, who has committed suicide

509
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 2: this past April twenty just recently five, correct? Can we

510
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 2: just continue this for a little bit longer in the

511
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 2: next segment still, and I promise we can all move on,

512
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 2: of course, allegedly allegedly allegedly and.

513
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 3: By the way, I have found the information for what

514
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 3: those fifteen thousand pounds are.

515
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 2: Courtney.

516
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we will be coming back with that information

517
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 3: and we are also going to be with Jordan Hope

518
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 3: later in the hour. Thank you, to share their story

519
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 3: of Munchausen by proxy. Abuse and now advocacy, and.

520
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 2: We are kneede deep in all things. Sarah Ferguson, you'll remember,

521
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: she is the ex wife of Prince Andrew, of all

522
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 2: things the Royals and Prince Andrew also, you know, was

523
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: sort of targeted by Virginia Dufray, the victim, the pretty

524
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 2: blonde one who's infamously in that photograph with him, allegedly

525
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 2: at Epstein's townhouse in New York City. Virginia Dufray took

526
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 2: her own life April twenty twenty five, so obviously very recently,

527
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 2: she's not here to sort of speak to some of this,

528
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 2: but you know, the onion's getting peeled, and there is

529
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 2: a little I don't know why. Suddenly Sarah Ferguson is

530
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 2: jumping in and saying, on the one hand, she doesn't

531
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 2: like pedophiles, and she took money from Jeffrey Epstein fifteen

532
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: thousand euros, but then regrets that decision, And on the

533
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 2: other there's an email allegedly of her saying that she's

534
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: really sorry for saying that about him, which is wild.

535
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 2: It is wild.

536
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 3: And it turns out that this fifteen thousand pounds about

537
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 3: twenty thousand US dollars is from none other than Jeffrey Epstein,

538
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 3: and it was to help Sarah Ferguson pay her former

539
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 3: personal assistance debt that she had to them. And this

540
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 3: payment because Sarah Ferguson, I don't know if you remember,

541
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 3: back in the day, she hit some really rough financial games.

542
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 3: And this payment was allegedly arranged by Sarah Ferguson's ex husband,

543
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 3: Prince Andrew.

544
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 2: Oh really yes, to pay her. He was like the

545
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: intermediary like between them like that.

546
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 3: Yes, So Sarah Ferguson was reportedly in financial distress. I've

547
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 3: heard her since speak on different talk shows about even

548
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 3: she took sort of endorsements that she wouldn't have, but she,

549
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 3: I don't know how you're a royal and then you

550
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 3: become completely well.

551
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 2: Because she weren't. They weren't they. They kind of kicked

552
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 2: her out of the club a little bit. They did

553
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 2: kick her out, and remember she was doing all the

554
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 2: weight watcher stuff back in then. We all loved her,

555
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 2: which is why they find this like a little We

556
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 2: didn't think.

557
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 4: She was like the She wasn't like as beloved as Diana,

558
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 4: but she was more of like the down to earth princess, right,

559
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 4: that's kind of definitely.

560
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, she definitely was always seemed to be laughing

561
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 3: in the the Sons.

562
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the wild and a mother of two daughters.

563
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 2: So it seems a little out of alignment with a

564
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: mother of daughters who is talking about a convicted sex offender. Yeah,

565
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 2: but this brokeer deal.

566
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 3: It was to pay her former personal assistant, Johnny O'Sullivan

567
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 3: because she owed him wages.

568
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 2: Oh so it was to pay his paycheck. Yeah, No,

569
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 2: it was Sarah Ferguson. It was paid to all consistent.

570
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 4: But she owed the cash and in her I'm sorry

571
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 4: in her statement to the newspaper, she said when I

572
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 4: can pay it back, you know, And that kind of

573
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 4: leads me toably she didn't really have the money at

574
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 4: the time to even pay Epstein back.

575
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: Right, however, Like that's the big smoking gun here, and

576
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to try to stick with me on this train.

577
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 2: So if our beloved Sarah Ferguson has to take money

578
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 2: from said convicted, pled guilty sex offender, and then she

579
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 2: says I hate pedophile. Sorry, bad judgment, boop a boop,

580
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: but then says to him Jeffrey Epstein in email, Hey

581
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 2: sorry about that. I didn't mean to call you a

582
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 2: sex offender in the news, I take it back, Oops,

583
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: won't happen again, because she is feeling blackmailed by him

584
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 2: because she has debt with him somehow, and he's basically

585
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 2: saying he's gonna sue her right like he was coming

586
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 2: back hot, So had she not changed her tune, which

587
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 2: it appears at a desperate moment, money being a hard thing,

588
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 2: public opinion not in her favor. She's in a tough spot,

589
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: so it's hard to speak the truth. And Jeffrey Epstein

590
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 2: was coming back hot, basically saying you need to recant

591
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 2: that or else. That is the same playbook that every victim. Now,

592
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: imagine you're in high school or a young a girl

593
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 2: who's you know, not not experienced enough in the world

594
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 2: to to navigate this insanity and how nuanced this all is,

595
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 2: and your family's being threatened, and you're being threatened, and

596
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 2: there were black cars file and there's black cars following you,

597
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 2: and you're being told, well, you know, you asked for it.

598
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 2: Whatever the thing is. I'm making that up, obviously projecting,

599
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 2: but it's like the same rule book, like Fergie was

600
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: playing and getting kind of stuck in the same corner,

601
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,839
Speaker 2: and it's Sarah Ferguson, a former royal. What happens when

602
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 2: you're just a princess, a regular person like the rest

603
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: of us, up against the guy. I also have I

604
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 2: gotta be honest.

605
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 3: As much as I adored her when I was young,

606
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 3: I have a lot less sympathy for someone who's having

607
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 3: a deal broken by their ex husband to get money

608
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 3: from a at this point convicted pedophile to pay for

609
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 3: debt because.

610
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,800
Speaker 2: You have a personal assistant you can't afford. Yeah, just

611
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 2: saying yeah, I mean, that's so fair way to bring

612
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 2: it out. I'm just trying to highlight just this how

613
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 2: people get their stories crossed or so we hear Alex

614
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 2: the Costa say yeah, or unreliable witnesses yeah, because like

615
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 2: they're all being threatened, the stories are changing. You know.

616
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 4: It's interesting to me about this whole situation is that

617
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 4: Jeffrey Epstein didn't demand a public apology. He wanted her

618
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 4: to be, you know, beholden to him personal. So true, right,

619
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 4: That's interesting to me in this whole thing that he

620
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 4: didn't he didn't say I demand you go to the

621
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 4: newspaper and retract your statement. It was a private email

622
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 4: with just them. It's almost like he wanted her to know,

623
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 4: you're under my thumb.

624
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 2: Under my thumb, and says every victim who's afraid to

625
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 2: speak out, they're under somebody's thumb, and it's so scary.

626
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: This is your crime.

627
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 4: Tonight on iHeartRadio, we've been talking about all the Epstein,

628
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 4: you know, shenanigans that have been going on. Right now

629
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 4: we're going to kind of move forward. We're gonna talk

630
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 4: about Luigi, all right, if you want to weigh and

631
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,479
Speaker 4: give us a call. Eighty to eight thirty one Crime Well.

632
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,439
Speaker 4: Lawyers for Luigi Mandione seek to block the federal death

633
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 4: penalty in the United Healthcare CEO assassination case. They're alleging

634
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 4: political bias, constitutional violations, and prejudicial public statements made by

635
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 4: Justice Department officials.

636
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 2: Specifically, wait for it, she's been in the news a

637
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 2: lot lately, Pam Bondie, Oh boy, yeah, so I know,

638
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 2: it's just a lot. Right.

639
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 4: So, the defense is arguing they filed a motion seeking

640
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 4: to dismiss this fuck you know, this death penalty case.

641
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 4: Remember New York State. He has two basically cases, one

642
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 4: in New York State and one federal case. Right and

643
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 4: New York State doesn't have the death penalty, all right,

644
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,919
Speaker 4: so they're arguing federal you know, in the federal case,

645
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 4: to drop the death penalty, and they're saying that Attorney

646
00:36:54,760 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 4: General Pam Bondi's public comments have prejudiced the trial. The

647
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 4: defense attorneys are claiming man Geom's constitutional rights have been

648
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 4: violated in six different ways, including all these prejudicial statements

649
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 4: and alleged unconstitutional conduct during the indictment. The defense is

650
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 4: also saying that the federal death penalty is applied arbitrarily

651
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 4: and that the Federal Death Penalty Act is constant I'm sorry,

652
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 4: constitutionally insufficient. New York officials have been accused by the

653
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 4: defense of over hyping the case. Do you guys remember

654
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,720
Speaker 4: this scene where the helicopter land and you know, Luigi

655
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 4: gets off and there's like, uh, you know, the Mayor

656
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 4: of New York is like out there, there's shackles. Yeah,

657
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 4: he's in shackles, and it's kind of like this, you know,

658
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 4: this march in the skyline of New York is kind

659
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 4: of behind him and whatnot. It was very theatrical and

660
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 4: they're pretty unprecedented, it really was. And they're citing that

661
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 4: they're saying it was overhyped and you know, oh, and

662
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 4: leaking all the information about this, you know, quote unquote

663
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 4: manifesto and anti health insurance claims that you know, are

664
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 4: really kind of tainting any kind of grand jury pool

665
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 4: and jury pool. The defense is requesting that the court

666
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 4: either dismiss it altogether the federal indictment bar the government

667
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 4: from seeking the death penalty at all, or strike the

668
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 4: Justice Department's notice of intent to pursue litle punishment. So

669
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 4: basically they're saying, either dismiss the case or get rid

670
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 4: of the death penalty.

671
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 2: What were Pam Bond these statements? Oh?

672
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 4: Okay, So here's what she said. She did a press release.

673
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 4: There's a couple of different statements that their citing. She

674
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 4: did a press release at the beginning of April, and

675
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 4: she said this, and I'm gonna quote Luigi Manngione's murder

676
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 4: of Brian Thompson, an innocent man and father of two

677
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 4: young children, was a premeditated, cold blooded assassination that shocked America.

678
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 4: After careful consideration, I have directed federal prosecutors to seek

679
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 4: the death penalty in this case. As we carry out

680
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 4: President Trump's agenda to stop violent crime and make America

681
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 4: safe again. And this is the political bias that they're quoting. Okay,

682
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 4: so they're saying that this is not this is arbitrary.

683
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 4: This isn't like law. This is a political agenda. It

684
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 4: has nothing to do with you know, how the death

685
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 4: penalty should be applied. It's arbitrary to pursue your political agenda. Well,

686
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,479
Speaker 4: it was also prior to the trial, right, it's also

687
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 4: prior to the trial. And then here's another one. This

688
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 4: is the big one, I think, because it's littered throughout.

689
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 4: It says on Fox New Sunday, Pam Bondi said, I

690
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 4: was a capital prosecutor. I've tried the death penalty cases

691
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 4: throughout my career. If there was ever a death case,

692
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 4: this is one. And this is the one that they're

693
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 4: saying is prejudicial. I have some excerpts from the motion.

694
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 4: It says, this statement alone is enough. This is from

695
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 4: the defense, by the way, Okay, this is Luigi Manngionn's lawyers.

696
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 2: This statement alone is.

697
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 4: Enough to produce the entirety of this case, the motion states,

698
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 4: referring to ban to Pam Bondi's comment on Fox News

699
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 4: that she's tried the death penalty case and that if

700
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 4: there was a death case, this is one. They're saying

701
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 4: that that statement alone is highly prejudicial, and that the

702
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 4: presumption of innocence has been ignored, and that they assert

703
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 4: Pam Bondi never once discussed the presumption of innocence or

704
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 4: that mister Mangioni might be innocent until proven guilty. And

705
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 4: that goes to the previous, you know, press conference statement

706
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 4: where she said Luigi Mangione's murder Brian Thompson was an

707
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 4: assassination in cold blood.

708
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 2: I mean, the language is very specific. I mean that is,

709
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: I don't know, that's a tough spot.

710
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 4: And then you know, of course they're using the political

711
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 4: motivation and this arbitrary decision to pursue the death penalty, right,

712
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 4: and they're saying based on politics, this isn't quote based

713
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 4: on politics, not merit. And you know, I can kind

714
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 4: of see where they're coming from, right like, because Pam

715
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 4: Bondi said, in pursuit of Donald Trump's you know, agenda

716
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 4: to make America safe again, we're going to pursue the

717
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 4: death penalty.

718
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 3: I have a question, go ahead, no, no, no, please,

719
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 3: I was actually gonna say, I you know, I understand

720
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 3: both or I get both sides, and I think both

721
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 3: sides with the grain of salt. They're, you know, the defense.

722
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 3: They have to put up this incredibly rigorous defense, even

723
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 3: with the you know, as you said, oh under make

724
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 3: you know under Donald Trump's America. But honestly, if you

725
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 3: swapped it out and just said, as Americans, we need

726
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 3: a terrorist like this, paraphrasing off of our collective streets,

727
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 3: I'm not saying the defense is a bad argument.

728
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 2: I'm just saying they would have to make one. They'd

729
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:48,720
Speaker 2: be making one. Whatever.

730
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 4: They're gonna pull holes in anything they can, right Courtney.

731
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 4: I mean, they're their number one goal right now, is

732
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,240
Speaker 4: not you know, to Luigi, you know, off on all charges,

733
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,439
Speaker 4: They're number one right now is to save his life.

734
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 4: Right That's their number one goal, and they're gonna do

735
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 4: everything they can.

736
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 3: To do that.

737
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 2: Isn't this the same playbook though that happens in every

738
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 2: high profile self Or is it really Pam Bondi's job

739
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 2: to be impartial at this stage? Yes, Innocent until proven

740
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 2: guilty a huge tenant of our constitution, so important we

741
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 2: all take it so serious and should is that her role?

742
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 2: I don't know the answer. It's literally a question, so

743
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 2: if anyone say it. Well, also, it sounds like she

744
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 2: needed her allegedly allegedly allegedly mug because yes she does.

745
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 2: She was being a little maybe you know, she was

746
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 2: stating something as if fact, as opposed to if this

747
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 2: is the guy, we should seek the death penalty.

748
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 6: Right.

749
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 4: So to answer your question, the defense is contending that

750
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 4: normal capital case review processes were bypassed and that the

751
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 4: decision was made and publicized without allowing defense input, review

752
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 4: ora full investigation. So to answer your question, we know

753
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 4: what is pan Bondy's like involvement. Well, apparently all these

754
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 4: review processes according to the defense, this is not according

755
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 4: to body movin. They they're contending that all those review

756
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 4: processes were completely bypassed.

757
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 2: So I don't know, and I don't know how legit

758
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 2: that is either, right, Like, well they did that with

759
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 2: Brian Coburger too. Wasn't he not starting to get a

760
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 2: fair trial because everybody was jumping in and I was

761
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: very against it. It turns out I was totally wrong.

762
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 2: But yeah, we don't try people in the press before

763
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 2: they have a fair trial. Period. The ends exclamation point

764
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 2: like high five put it in bold letters. That's like

765
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 2: a real tenant. I don't know. Well they called that,

766
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 2: you know, that purp walk they did that. They did.

767
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 4: Remember, we're just talking about the helicopter and the sky

768
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 4: line behind him like it was.

769
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: It was like a Smith movie. It really was. See,

770
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 2: the guy did shoot a He shot a man in

771
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 2: New York City, in cold blood while people were just passing.

772
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 4: By, and he did plan it based on his manifests

773
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 4: are saying this is the defense contends that the arrest

774
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 4: in public display were very staged. They said it was

775
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 4: a dehumanizing, unconstitutional perp walk where he was televised, videotaped,

776
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 4: and photographed, and that authorities made Manngium's arrest into a spectacle. Now,

777
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 4: I don't know, Like, what is that going to do?

778
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 4: Hard to you that he made a spectacle of himself.

779
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 3: When at six am and people are trying to get

780
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 3: their cup of Joe and go to work, he pulls

781
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 3: out a gun that he has created at home with

782
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 3: this three D printer.

783
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 2: That's a spectacle too. Yeah, and how about all of

784
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 2: his little carvings and engravings. And I'm not defending either

785
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 2: side here, but I see all sides. You know, he's

786
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 2: he's very performative in his murdering ways, meaning he's putting,

787
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 2: you know, engraving into the casings, and he's leaving a manifesto.

788
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 2: And the monopoly the monopoly money. Yeah, the monopoly money.

789
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 2: Give me a break. So there was a statement to

790
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 2: be had which in and of itself was performative. And

791
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,760
Speaker 2: therefore you can't be annoyed by the performance. You cannot

792
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 2: order a hot chocolate and be mad when the hot

793
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 2: chocolate comes boom. It's a question, deep thought. That's a

794
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 2: new saying. I learn something new every day. And listen,

795
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 2: we hope you are learning much from us. Stay with us.

796
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 3: After the break, Jordan Hope is joining us and they

797
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 3: are a survivor of Munchausen by proxy abuse, a turned

798
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 3: victim's advocate.

799
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 2: They will be joining us and we're thrilled. True Crime Tonight.

800
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

801
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here, of course,

802
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 2: with Courtney Armstrong and body move in. Listen. That first

803
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 2: hour just flew by. If you missed any of it,

804
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 2: that is no problem at all. Please catch it as

805
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 2: a podcast just a few hours after we wrap. Yeah,

806
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 2: it's a very complicated way of saying, just catch it

807
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 2: as a podcast after the show, and if you want

808
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 2: to jump in and join the really important conversation that

809
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 2: we're having eight at eight to three One Crime, we

810
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 2: want to hear from you because we have an important

811
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 2: guest and we're so happy to have you here, Jordan Hope,

812
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 2: who's going to really share their story about survival and

813
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 2: inspire us with their ability to really overcome a topic

814
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 2: that we've been talking a lot about, this idea of

815
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 2: Munchausens by proxy or Munchausens by Internet. A quick reminder,

816
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 2: I think it really came to at least my knowledge

817
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 2: when we saw Gypsy Rose Blanchard in her you know,

818
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 2: terrible tales that she went through at the hands of

819
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 2: her own mother, who was basically, you know, forcing her

820
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 2: to be in a wheelchair and to be subjected to

821
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 2: many surgeries and stuff because by Gypsy her daughter being

822
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 2: in a kind of a sickly state, mom got some

823
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,879
Speaker 2: weird like like praise for it for being a devoted mother,

824
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 2: you know, caring for an ailing child. Then recently we

825
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 2: discussed it in our True Crime and Chill two weeks ago,

826
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 2: Unknown caller, which really highlights Munchausen's by proxy by Internet. Jordan,

827
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 2: jump in if I'm messing any of this up, because

828
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 2: this is my layman's version. Okay, so that's why you're

829
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 2: here to sort of to school us on like what

830
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 2: it is and what it isn't. And again we see

831
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 2: it there. Guess what Mom is the one who is

832
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 2: basically saying, oh, my daughter is really going through it.

833
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 2: Yet she's causing the problem that's causing daughter to go

834
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 2: through it so that she can be praised for being

835
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 2: an extraordinary caregiver. That is like a really difficult loop.

836
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 2: Now imagine your Jordan Hope, who I get We all

837
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 2: get the benefit of seeing. Right now, We're so happy

838
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 2: you're here. Thank you for spending this time and sharing

839
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 2: her story with us. Who yourself? This is close to home? Right,

840
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 2: So you personally have lived in this exact environment where

841
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 2: your caregiver is Suddenly you're getting exposed to surgeries and

842
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 2: you're in there, you are and you're you're being you're

843
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 2: being made to be the sick child when in reality

844
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 2: you're not sick. And then only later does this come

845
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 2: to light. And now this is your your calling and

846
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 2: your life's mission, so to kind of break through some

847
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 2: of this confusion and answer our questions and if anyone

848
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 2: listening has some of their own, it's it's nuanced and

849
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 2: it's sensitive and it's really important. You know, we talk

850
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 2: a lot about it about men. This is like typically women, right,

851
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 2: So Courtney, you want to give us a little summation

852
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 2: of something and then we can join and just.

853
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 3: A little bit of background before Jordan fills us in

854
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 3: on all of the all of the details. But Munchausen

855
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 3: by proxy abuse mb PA, it's a syndrome, and it's

856
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 3: syndrome where caregivers, most often mothers, they fabricate or induce

857
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 3: illnesses in a child or other vulnerable individual, and it

858
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 3: is to it's so this individual can gain attention for

859
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 3: themselves as well as sympathy. Approximately ninety five percent of

860
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 3: cases do involve mothers.

861
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 2: It is a rare syndrome.

862
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 3: About one percent of hospitalized children are in the throes

863
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 3: of it, which actually that seems one percent seems high.

864
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 3: It is also extremely dangerous and six to nine percent

865
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 3: of victims can die from the abuse. Experts believe real

866
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 3: numbers are actually much higher due to underreporting and difficulty

867
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 3: of diagnosis. Yeah, I would have to imagine that was

868
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 3: even more so if these caregivers are inducing illnesses. So

869
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 3: thankfully Jordan Hope is here and Jordan was suggested to

870
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 3: us by a listener and yay, and they are getting

871
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 3: a oh social master's in social work. And Jordan is

872
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 3: an advocate and also survivor of Munchausen biproxy abuse. And

873
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 3: they facilitate support groups, provide coaching to other survivors, and

874
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 3: present around the United States to help aid the treatment

875
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 3: and care of other victims and survivors.

876
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's big work. How are you. How are you?

877
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 6: I'm doing all right, grateful to be here.

878
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 2: Well, we're so glad you're here. Thank you for joining us.

879
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 3: Well, I'll hop in with something since this is a

880
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 3: little bit what had another listener, you know, bring us

881
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 3: all together. I'm curious, what do you think that media

882
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 3: portrayal is it? Is it for better or is it

883
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 3: for worse?

884
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 6: I definitely think both. I think that probably every answer

885
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 6: I ever give you everything with you on of course,

886
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 6: especially in this sphere. But I think you know, some

887
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 6: pros are definitely the awareness. I think having more media

888
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 6: talking about this does get more people also talking about this,

889
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:19,800
Speaker 6: more people looking into it, more people interested, things like that. However,

890
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 6: I think there's also a lot of harm that happens

891
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 6: because of the portrayal. I think oftentimes when it comes

892
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:31,919
Speaker 6: to munchilds by proxy abuse, the only portrayals we really

893
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 6: see are usually in like horror films or things like that,

894
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:40,760
Speaker 6: like the movie It or the sixth Sense, or sharp

895
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 6: objects or things like that, which I think sometimes makes

896
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 6: it more sensationalized, makes it harder to believe that it's

897
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 6: actually real.

898
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 2: And by the way, you have your caregiver, and you know,

899
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 2: to Courtney's point, oftentimes it's moms. We hear a lot

900
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 2: about narcissistic men, but this is sort of a case

901
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:05,280
Speaker 2: in point. Hi, narcissistic women also a real thing, equally dangerous.

902
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 2: So here you are, You're a child, your lifeline is

903
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 2: your caregiver. Yet your lifeline is causing this disruption. So

904
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: it's a double pump in terms of asking for help

905
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 2: finding help, because hey, look, my caregiver may go away

906
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:25,360
Speaker 2: even if the care is terrible and might have a

907
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 2: sinking suspicion some things awry. Now what because you might

908
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 2: not have another source. And if I'm correct me, if

909
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 2: I'm wrong. It wasn't until you were in college starting

910
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 2: to study this stuff that you recognize it in your

911
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 2: own life.

912
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely what happened. I had no idea.

913
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 6: I mean, there were like little signs here and there,

914
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,280
Speaker 6: but I had absolutely no idea.

915
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 8: And I think something that.

916
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 6: Always sticks with me is when you're a child growing

917
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 6: up in a home, like you have to believe that.

918
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 5: Your caretaker is safe.

919
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 6: Of course, like you will do whatever to make that

920
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,240
Speaker 6: caretaker safe because you're a child, You're dependent on those people.

921
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 6: So it can be really complicated how everyone can even

922
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 6: be telling you things but it just won't won't click

923
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:09,240
Speaker 6: because it can't.

924
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,399
Speaker 2: You can't. What is I'm sorry.

925
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 4: What is the biggest misconception people have about victims of

926
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 4: Munchausen biproxy?

927
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:19,919
Speaker 8: I think there are so many.

928
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 6: I think one of the biggest misconceptions specifically about victims survivors.

929
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,800
Speaker 6: One is that I hear all the time is that

930
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 6: if someone is older, they'll say, like a teenager, then

931
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 6: they must be in on it, they must know what's happening,

932
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 6: they must actually have Munchausen's themselves and be faking in

933
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 6: all these things. And I think that that is so

934
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 6: far from the truth. I don't think that that's an

935
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 6: impossible situation necessarily.

936
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 8: But I think that more often that's not the case.

937
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:53,800
Speaker 6: And I think the other thing is is that people

938
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 6: really tend to believe that either a person is sick

939
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 6: or they are healthy. So if you find out that

940
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:06,319
Speaker 6: this person suffered or was a victim to much as

941
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 6: my proxy abuse, then typically people think, oh, well, then

942
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,800
Speaker 6: that must mean that that person or that child is

943
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 6: fully healthy and has zero issues. And again that's just

944
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 6: like not true. We see all the time in the

945
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 6: research and just from the hundreds of survivors I've spoken

946
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 6: to that oftentimes there are real things that were going

947
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:29,320
Speaker 6: on that are caused by the abuse, things like that

948
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 6: that don get so dismissed.

949
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:33,800
Speaker 4: I never thought in that, right, So you you know,

950
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 4: you go to the the go to the doctor because

951
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 4: your your your caregiver takes you and they perform some procedure,

952
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 4: and now you're sick because of this procedure, right.

953
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 2: I never thought of that. Wow.

954
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, So yeah, I think that's one of the hardest

955
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 6: things is that that survivor's face is having to some

956
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 6: like I mean, for instance, every day, I you know,

957
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 6: thankfully my scars on my back. But I you know,

958
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 6: some survivors like go every day and have to look

959
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,360
Speaker 6: at the scars on their body and know that that

960
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 6: was caused by this person that supposedly loves them.

961
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 2: Wow, I'm sorry. So did you have when you were

962
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 2: growing up?

963
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:17,360
Speaker 4: Were you going to different many different doctors, because I

964
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:19,839
Speaker 4: feel like that's kind of maybe like tell us their

965
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:23,800
Speaker 4: story the black space here, right, The doctors they have

966
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 4: to know, like, if you're constantly going to the same

967
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 4: doctor at some point is going to be raising a

968
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 4: red flag, right, And now with everything being digitized, you

969
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 4: think it would be easier for doctors to cross reference

970
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:37,359
Speaker 4: things and be like, Okay, well you know they were

971
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 4: here for this a week ago and now they're here

972
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:40,800
Speaker 4: for this, Like what's going on?

973
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 2: But does that not happen.

974
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 6: It definitely, Yeah, there's definitely a lot of doctor shopping

975
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 6: that happens. Even I mean I grew up like a

976
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 6: really rural town, so I went from the same hospital,

977
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 6: but still just saw different doctors in that hospital and

978
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 6: they all knew. They all knew from the time I

979
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 6: was like one year old, maybe even younger than that,

980
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 6: they all were aware and I was never taken out

981
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 6: of the homes of this abused or anything like that.

982
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 6: I think the hard part is that sometimes they can

983
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 6: see what's happening, they know what's happening, but they also

984
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 6: get stuck between such a rock and a hard place,

985
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:19,320
Speaker 6: so they can only do sometimes they can try to.

986
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:21,320
Speaker 5: My doctors did do reports.

987
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:23,879
Speaker 6: They did what they could right, they tried harmony action,

988
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 6: they tried as many things as they could, and I mean,

989
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 6: I think I'm alive today partially because of them. Wow,

990
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 6: But I still yeah, it's still well, you.

991
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:34,879
Speaker 2: Saw them a lot of grace, probably more than I would.

992
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:36,240
Speaker 2: You're showing a lot.

993
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 3: Unbelievable Yeah, And Jordan, just for clarity, so you said

994
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 3: that was such a certaintude. So the doctors have you

995
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:47,319
Speaker 3: since seen seen the reporting or how did it? How

996
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 3: did it come to your attention that they were aware?

997
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 2: Doctors were aware?

998
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:55,320
Speaker 6: I got so I got my records. So when I

999
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:59,399
Speaker 6: was twenty two is when I first heard this term

1000
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 6: and kind of flooded with all these memories. And then

1001
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:04,759
Speaker 6: I got all my medical records sent to me, and

1002
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 6: during that time I saw I mean, there's much jobs

1003
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 6: in by proxy written multiple times throughout my medical records. Yeah,

1004
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 6: and I actually went and met with one of my

1005
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:22,320
Speaker 6: main pediatricians and she I thought I was going there

1006
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:24,919
Speaker 6: to reprimand her and be like I'm alive now thanks

1007
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 6: to you, like all this stuff. Like I was ready

1008
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 6: to really just like go at her, but she we

1009
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:35,720
Speaker 6: actually descried. We like sobbed together, and she gave me

1010
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 6: a confidential file that had existed that had more information

1011
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 6: in it. She's actually she went on the show The

1012
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 6: Doctors with me, She was on podcasts with me. She's

1013
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 6: she Yeah, we've actually developed quite a good friendship since then.

1014
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 2: But yeah, wow, that's unbelievable. I'd love to even hear

1015
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 2: a little of your experience so that maybe listeners can

1016
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 2: recognize that in their own world. Since we don't talk

1017
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 2: a lot about it, it's hard to know the signs

1018
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 2: if you're not discussing it.

1019
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think for myself. So you know, I was

1020
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 6: told I had severe asthma. I had a rare blood

1021
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 6: disease called new chupinias or supposedly that's like why I

1022
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:24,959
Speaker 6: got sick more than other kids. I had all these allergies,

1023
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 6: I had osteopenia.

1024
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 8: That's why I broke phones.

1025
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:31,440
Speaker 6: Like all this sort of stuff, and it's very clearly

1026
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 6: early on, I guess said doctors and everyone else.

1027
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 5: Was very aware, and sadly I would say what happened.

1028
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 5: Because of that.

1029
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 6: Throughout school, probably early middle school, even later elementary school,

1030
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 6: people started to kind of treat me like I was

1031
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 6: the one taking things for attention, and I was doing

1032
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 6: these things to get attention.

1033
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 8: But I thought I was dying.

1034
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 6: I thought there was something like so wrong.

1035
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 2: With So you really believe yourself to be sick?

1036
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, I one hundred percent that I was sick. I

1037
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 6: like I One of my most vivid memories is I

1038
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 6: was in fifth grade. We ran the half mile and

1039
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 6: I had a severe as my attack. I thought I

1040
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 6: was dying, and I got brought to the nurses station

1041
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 6: or the nurses room, and like all these adults, like

1042
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 6: the principal, vice principal, guidance counselor, all stood around.

1043
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 8: This bed and I thought I was dying.

1044
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 6: But they didn't call nine one one. They called my

1045
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 6: mom to come pick me up, So I'm assuming that

1046
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 6: they must have known I wasn't dying. My little brain

1047
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 6: didn't recognize that. But when I got out to the car,

1048
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 6: I suddenly could breathe suddenly I was fine, and I

1049
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 6: told my mom, oh, I think I'm okay now, and

1050
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 6: my mom said, no.

1051
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 8: You'll die if we don't go to the er right now.

1052
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 6: So I was probably having an anxiety attack, of course,

1053
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 6: but it was things like that that would happen all

1054
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 6: the time. And because of that, sometimes I would like

1055
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 6: purposely breathe faster, or I would exaggerate symptoms because I

1056
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 6: was like, if I the doctor is telling me that

1057
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 6: this isn't real, I have to show them that it's

1058
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:10,960
Speaker 6: real so that I can get out right. And I

1059
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 6: think that that was yeah, very misconstrued.

1060
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:17,840
Speaker 2: Wow, by the way, Yeah, the placebo effect.

1061
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 1: You know.

1062
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 2: Also, you know who hasn't like taken a Oh this

1063
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 2: is going to make you feel better, and then you're like, oh,

1064
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 2: I feel.

1065
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 9: Great, right because the mind is so powerful, right, Or

1066
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 9: I know this specific medicine is going to fix whatever

1067
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:31,480
Speaker 9: I've got, right, So I'm going to play that up

1068
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 9: a little bit to make sure I get that medicine

1069
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 9: crom care or whatever.

1070
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 4: Right.

1071
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:37,240
Speaker 2: Wow.

1072
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 4: Well, listen, this is true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're

1073
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 4: going to be continuing this conversation with Jordan Hope discussing

1074
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 4: munchausen biproxy abuse and their incredible story of survival.

1075
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 2: Stick around.

1076
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:50,920
Speaker 4: We have a lot more to cover. Give us a

1077
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 4: call it eighty eight thirty one Crime. This is True

1078
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 4: Crime Tonight.

1079
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1080
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lydecker here with

1081
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and Body Moven, and we are talking about

1082
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:19,280
Speaker 2: a very important topic, Munchausen's by Proxy, joined by Jordan Hope,

1083
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:25,280
Speaker 2: who has survived this literally real time. So you've lived it,

1084
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 2: You've gotten to the other side of it as a victim,

1085
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 2: your mom suffered from this. And again, just to kind

1086
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 2: of bring our listeners a little bit up to speed,

1087
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 2: not to not to truncate too much, but essentially Munchausen's

1088
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 2: by proxy is the caregiver. Oftentimes mom is pausing harm

1089
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 2: or inflicting harm on their child, like as if it's

1090
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:55,000
Speaker 2: a surgery or an illness or something that requires care,

1091
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 2: so that mom or caregiver could be applauded for their

1092
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 2: greatness for being so devoted, so hands on, so in

1093
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 2: touch with their child, when in fact they're actually pausing this,

1094
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:12,400
Speaker 2: which is abuse, right so, Jordan, you lived this with

1095
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 2: your own mother. So just hearing your version of this

1096
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 2: and how this played out with your own mom does

1097
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 2: really shed a light. So thank you for sharing. Yes,

1098
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 2: thank you. How did this play out with your own mom?

1099
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, so kind of the way that I actually played

1100
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:31,080
Speaker 6: out is like I talked about, you know, there was

1101
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 6: all this stuff kind of growing up when I was younger,

1102
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 6: with the being sick all the time and this were

1103
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:40,360
Speaker 6: blood disease and things like that, and just getting poked

1104
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 6: and prodded all the time, and eventually as a teenager

1105
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:51,440
Speaker 6: I ended up actually I did get taken out of

1106
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:53,440
Speaker 6: the house, but it was not for anything to do

1107
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 6: with one child in my proxy, so I had no

1108
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 6: idea still about that. But when I was around the time,

1109
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 6: unfortune and my mom.

1110
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 8: Kind of went through some stuff and convinced me that.

1111
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:08,280
Speaker 6: She that I, like was having all the stack pain,

1112
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 6: which I.

1113
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 8: Probably was having back pain. I was a gymnast, I.

1114
01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:16,320
Speaker 6: Also had gone through a lot of trauma, and trauma

1115
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 6: comes out through different physical pains and.

1116
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 8: Things like that.

1117
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 6: But my mom kind of convinced me that I was

1118
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 6: having such severe back pain. So we went doctor to

1119
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 6: doctor and after doing a million different types of treatment,

1120
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 6: physical therapy, quarter zone shot, taking vicoin as a teenager

1121
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 6: for a pain. We finally found the doctor that I

1122
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 6: was willing to do surgery, and I had an L

1123
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 6: five S one final fusion at the age of fifteen

1124
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:51,400
Speaker 6: or sixteen that was completely unnecessary.

1125
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 2: And your body is so growing at that age too,

1126
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:57,360
Speaker 2: you know how dangerous that is.

1127
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, so sorry, Yeah, I mean I remember doctors like

1128
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 6: I remember giving like a letter from a doctor saying

1129
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:06,080
Speaker 6: like that they wouldn't do the surgery, that it was

1130
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 6: a bad idea and things like that, and thinking, well

1131
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:12,320
Speaker 6: I can't walk or and having such pain, this is

1132
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:17,200
Speaker 6: the only thing that'll make it better. Uh, but shocking

1133
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 6: me now, actually I have sonic pack pain and two

1134
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 6: rods and four screws in my back. That's all the

1135
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:28,960
Speaker 6: rest of my life. Versus probably just needed their years

1136
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:34,480
Speaker 6: only now. Yeah, So it kind of for me continued

1137
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:37,040
Speaker 6: until I fully left the house, and I would say,

1138
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:39,200
Speaker 6: even after I fully left the house, it was no

1139
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:43,920
Speaker 6: longer near her. I still kind of carried on this

1140
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:47,720
Speaker 6: sick identity in a lot of ways because I didn't

1141
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:51,680
Speaker 6: I didn't know, not because I was trying to anyone

1142
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:55,880
Speaker 6: MM hmm, exactly. And I didn't know, of course, right,

1143
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:58,520
Speaker 6: Like I had no idea that I wasn't sick, Like

1144
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 6: I thought, oh, this had a means x y Z

1145
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 6: that they needs this, this means I need to go

1146
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 6: to the er, like I had no sense of how

1147
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:09,920
Speaker 6: to actually listen to my body or what is ever

1148
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:10,440
Speaker 6: telling me?

1149
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 2: Of course?

1150
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:19,240
Speaker 3: And Jordan, what do experts believe causes Munchausen biproxy abuse?

1151
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 3: Is it genetic? Is it triggered by a trauma or

1152
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:24,840
Speaker 3: life circumstance.

1153
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:27,040
Speaker 8: That's a great question.

1154
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:29,320
Speaker 6: I think that you know, first of all, I would

1155
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 6: say it's something that a lot of people say, and

1156
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:33,000
Speaker 6: I know you guys have said an event, but I

1157
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 6: would say that it's something someone suffers from. So it's

1158
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:39,600
Speaker 6: like it's in the DSM as facticious disorder and pose

1159
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 6: in another as a mental illness. However, the way that

1160
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 6: I and many other experts in the field see it.

1161
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:49,720
Speaker 5: Is it's abuse. It's a type of abuse.

1162
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 6: There might be underlying things happening, right, So there can

1163
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:56,959
Speaker 6: be a lot of different things. Sometimes we see personality

1164
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:01,720
Speaker 6: or attachment disorders, or you might see more of like

1165
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 6: a psychopathology sort of stuff going on with like lack

1166
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:12,120
Speaker 6: of empathy or things like that. So it really just

1167
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 6: kind of depends, I guess, depending on the person. A

1168
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 6: lot of times that we see people that sometimes you

1169
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:21,160
Speaker 6: see it more as there might be more of like

1170
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 6: a child torture sort of element, where it really is

1171
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 6: there's like something that the person is getting from causing

1172
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 6: this harm. But sometimes you also see more of somebody

1173
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:38,000
Speaker 6: who is just meeting and looking for that attention and

1174
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:41,919
Speaker 6: that sympathy and that care and not knowing how else

1175
01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:42,440
Speaker 6: to get that.

1176
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:46,919
Speaker 2: Wow, that's an interesting thing. I never I've never heard

1177
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 2: that stated so clearly and again, and I get a

1178
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 2: cold chill. So it's two part one. I always sort

1179
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:55,640
Speaker 2: of assumed it was because, mostly because I watched All

1180
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 2: Things Gypsy Rose right, that it's the devotion of being

1181
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:03,960
Speaker 2: considered a heroic parent or mother for taking such good

1182
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 2: care hurt exactly how does she do it? Oh my goodness,

1183
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 2: can you imagine? I could never. I could never, And like, meanwhile,

1184
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:18,440
Speaker 2: she's getting a free house from you know, everyone's devoted.

1185
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:22,160
Speaker 2: It never occurred to me that it's straight up like

1186
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 2: statistic that you're getting you're torturing and abusing your child

1187
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:28,680
Speaker 2: and getting I'm sort of a kick from that, and

1188
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:30,000
Speaker 2: I don't know that.

1189
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:33,960
Speaker 6: Just kind of yeah, I think we see all sides

1190
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 6: of it, right, Like, so we see all of those

1191
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:40,120
Speaker 6: different things, Like, I mean, my mom was a gymnastics teacher,

1192
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,000
Speaker 6: she was a cheerleading coach, she had a daycare.

1193
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:45,400
Speaker 8: My mom was always around children.

1194
01:07:45,560 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 6: She was well known in town and she did a

1195
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 6: lot with kids, and everyone for a long time thought

1196
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:54,280
Speaker 6: that she was super loving and great and caring and

1197
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:57,200
Speaker 6: all of these like she was always happy and things

1198
01:07:57,280 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 6: like that. But we've also seen and hurt from other

1199
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:07,240
Speaker 6: survivors who that wasn't the situation. I would say oftentimes

1200
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:10,080
Speaker 6: we hear a lot more from the people who their

1201
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 6: mom is a teacher, their mom works in social services,

1202
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:15,640
Speaker 6: their mom's a nurse.

1203
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:19,639
Speaker 5: There's a lot of these types of spaces, which typically

1204
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:20,280
Speaker 5: that makes it.

1205
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:24,040
Speaker 6: Extra hard to try to prove that this is happening,

1206
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:28,400
Speaker 6: because typically this mom is seeing as a good mom

1207
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:29,759
Speaker 6: and all these different things.

1208
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:34,960
Speaker 2: Wow, you are listening to True crime tonight. I'm Courtney Armstrong.

1209
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:39,880
Speaker 3: I'm here with Stephanie Leidecker, Body Mooven and Jordan Hope,

1210
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 3: who we are so lucky to have with us, and

1211
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:48,760
Speaker 3: they are both a survivor of and now advocate for

1212
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:52,599
Speaker 3: other people who have suffered from Munchausen by proxy abuse.

1213
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:57,000
Speaker 3: If you have any questions for them, give us a call.

1214
01:08:57,240 --> 01:09:02,080
Speaker 3: Eighty eight three one crime. So Jordan, something you said

1215
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:06,280
Speaker 3: before the commercial break, and also piggybacks on how it

1216
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:09,520
Speaker 3: can be hard to ferret out if someone.

1217
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:12,400
Speaker 2: Is a teacher, a nurse, et cetera.

1218
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:17,439
Speaker 3: I was flabbergasted when you said that some of your

1219
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:19,519
Speaker 3: positions may have known from as early as when you

1220
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:23,880
Speaker 3: were a year or so. Aren't doctors mandatory reporters? And

1221
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:26,720
Speaker 3: where is that in this mix?

1222
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:30,360
Speaker 2: Because that really question.

1223
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:34,080
Speaker 6: I think that that is such a big question now

1224
01:09:34,120 --> 01:09:36,400
Speaker 6: we get all the time. But the reality is, like

1225
01:09:36,479 --> 01:09:39,080
Speaker 6: I said, in my medical records, there was a report,

1226
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:42,280
Speaker 6: there was a report from a chisen bypoxy abuse, there

1227
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:46,960
Speaker 6: was video surveillance of over reporting as well as possible

1228
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 6: induced vomiting by various means, and nothing happens. So sometimes

1229
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:54,760
Speaker 6: even when there is a report, even if they have

1230
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:59,800
Speaker 6: video evidence or things like that, sometimes there's still the

1231
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:02,799
Speaker 6: space that's in the system where things kind of fall apart.

1232
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:06,639
Speaker 6: And my pediatrician, and the thing that she always said

1233
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:08,439
Speaker 6: is like, you know, you can bring it to someone

1234
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:11,320
Speaker 6: and say this is happening, but then they're going to say, well,

1235
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:12,680
Speaker 6: do you want to get up in front of a

1236
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:17,320
Speaker 6: judge and jury and talk about how this seemingly loving mom,

1237
01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 6: that loving your child so much is child abuse? And

1238
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 6: she I mean told me say to my feet that

1239
01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:27,320
Speaker 6: it would have been better if my mom had like

1240
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:30,360
Speaker 6: thrown me down the stairs, broken my bone, because then

1241
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:34,679
Speaker 6: maybe she could have done something. There's no laws, there's

1242
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:37,200
Speaker 6: no laws that say it's illegal to lie to a doctor.

1243
01:10:38,240 --> 01:10:39,960
Speaker 2: And by the way, isn't that the case with so

1244
01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:42,400
Speaker 2: much abuse? By the way, So just so I'm getting

1245
01:10:42,439 --> 01:10:44,680
Speaker 2: this right, it's not a syndrome, it's abuse, right, So

1246
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:49,160
Speaker 2: for clarity, and much like so many other forms of abuse,

1247
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:52,840
Speaker 2: sometimes yeah, it's if only you could say, oh, they

1248
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:55,280
Speaker 2: throw me down, I fly to stairs, then it would

1249
01:10:55,280 --> 01:10:57,080
Speaker 2: be like, wow, well we don't want that, you know,

1250
01:10:57,240 --> 01:10:59,720
Speaker 2: lock them up. But if it's if it's not that

1251
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:03,120
Speaker 2: on the nose quintessential tied up in a bow abuse,

1252
01:11:03,160 --> 01:11:05,160
Speaker 2: it's sometimes so hard to prove and therefore hard to

1253
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:09,200
Speaker 2: come forward, right, because it's confusing, Right, how did it?

1254
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:12,040
Speaker 2: What was a trigger point for your you and your mom?

1255
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:19,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, there really wasn't for my childand I talked to

1256
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:22,760
Speaker 6: you stuff. I really had no idea. I left my

1257
01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:26,360
Speaker 6: home when I was between sixteen to seventeen. I was

1258
01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:29,439
Speaker 6: still in school, but I knew my mom was an

1259
01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:33,720
Speaker 6: alcoholic as well, and so I left the home and

1260
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:37,720
Speaker 6: became homeless for two years and couch hopped the rest

1261
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:40,080
Speaker 6: of my high school years.

1262
01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:42,720
Speaker 8: But I still didn't know. I had no idea.

1263
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:43,519
Speaker 5: I remember thinking.

1264
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:47,320
Speaker 6: I used to think like I wouldn't use my inhaler

1265
01:11:47,439 --> 01:11:50,280
Speaker 6: because I was like, I can just breathe and be

1266
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:52,120
Speaker 6: better than this and stuff like that.

1267
01:11:52,320 --> 01:11:54,759
Speaker 5: And I thought it was just some like superpower I had.

1268
01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:58,040
Speaker 6: Or that I was doing something really powerful.

1269
01:11:58,479 --> 01:12:01,760
Speaker 4: Your rain was so powerful, was like overcoming your health, right,

1270
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:04,559
Speaker 4: like yeah, you're yeah, I've done.

1271
01:12:04,439 --> 01:12:06,400
Speaker 2: That too, Yeah so have I Yeah I done it.

1272
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:09,519
Speaker 6: Yeah. But turns out it wasn't even real. I didn't

1273
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:11,960
Speaker 6: even have a lunch, so you know, I had no idea,

1274
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:15,040
Speaker 6: but it really wasn't in It was in a psychology

1275
01:12:15,080 --> 01:12:17,280
Speaker 6: class and you were just sitting there and the professor

1276
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:20,519
Speaker 6: started talking about munchous and which I had never heard of,

1277
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:23,320
Speaker 6: and I remember, just like I got.

1278
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:25,360
Speaker 5: Flooded with memory after memory.

1279
01:12:25,080 --> 01:12:27,639
Speaker 6: I still have the note in my phone somewhere from

1280
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:30,479
Speaker 6: the notes I took, which honestly, the notes made no

1281
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:32,240
Speaker 6: sense when I look back at them now, I'm like,

1282
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:35,880
Speaker 6: I don't understand how I got here, but here we are.

1283
01:12:36,080 --> 01:12:39,120
Speaker 6: Then I got everything sent and it just everything made

1284
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:39,719
Speaker 6: a lot of sense.

1285
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:40,360
Speaker 2: Wow.

1286
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:42,559
Speaker 4: That must have been a terrifying moment for you, though,

1287
01:12:43,040 --> 01:12:47,599
Speaker 4: to realize I'm a victim and you know, my mother

1288
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:50,519
Speaker 4: did this to me, that must have been incredibly terrifying.

1289
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:51,439
Speaker 2: I can kind of.

1290
01:12:51,479 --> 01:12:54,639
Speaker 4: See the scene in my head right same like zooming

1291
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:58,000
Speaker 4: in slow motion, like the you know, the scary music,

1292
01:12:58,080 --> 01:12:59,240
Speaker 4: Like I can just see it, you know.

1293
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:04,360
Speaker 6: Yeah. Then that was only you know, twenty eighteen, which

1294
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:08,080
Speaker 6: is not that one ago. There wasn't anything for survivors there.

1295
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:11,360
Speaker 6: If you googled it, there was nothing. There was no resources,

1296
01:13:11,600 --> 01:13:12,320
Speaker 6: no support.

1297
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:15,559
Speaker 8: Do you nobody talk to there?

1298
01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:17,760
Speaker 6: I mean back then, there was nothing. And I reached

1299
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:20,280
Speaker 6: out to doctor Mark Feldman because that two pops up

1300
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:24,280
Speaker 6: from when you type this in and uh now, But

1301
01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:26,280
Speaker 6: after that, I mean I did a lot of therapy

1302
01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:29,960
Speaker 6: and a lot of like self reflection and things like that.

1303
01:13:30,439 --> 01:13:34,439
Speaker 6: Now there is an organization mun Child's Support that I

1304
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:40,599
Speaker 6: am an independent contractor. With that we have resources, support groups,

1305
01:13:40,760 --> 01:13:44,120
Speaker 6: things like that that we offer. But that's i mean,

1306
01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:46,240
Speaker 6: very new within the past few years.

1307
01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:49,160
Speaker 2: So let me ask you something. This is like the

1308
01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:49,920
Speaker 2: burning question.

1309
01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:50,479
Speaker 6: Right.

1310
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:53,240
Speaker 4: We all just recently watched this unknown number of the

1311
01:13:53,280 --> 01:13:57,080
Speaker 4: high school Catfish and in that documentary, I think it

1312
01:13:57,240 --> 01:13:59,720
Speaker 4: was either one of the law enforcement officers of the

1313
01:13:59,720 --> 01:14:04,240
Speaker 4: prince said, I think this woman has Munchausen cyber Munchausen

1314
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:05,439
Speaker 4: or Munchhausen by Internet.

1315
01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:06,840
Speaker 2: Is that a thing?

1316
01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:09,400
Speaker 4: And do you think that this mother might have suffered

1317
01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:11,400
Speaker 4: from this? Or I'm sorry no, let me rephrase that.

1318
01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:12,840
Speaker 2: Do you think she might have had this?

1319
01:14:14,520 --> 01:14:18,080
Speaker 6: Yes, it is a thing. So doctor Marchaldman actually coined

1320
01:14:18,120 --> 01:14:20,920
Speaker 6: the term, i want to say, in two thousands, and

1321
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:23,920
Speaker 6: we do see like a huge rise in Munchhagen by

1322
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:27,720
Speaker 6: Internet sort of behaviors. Now, so sometimes we'll see that

1323
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:32,080
Speaker 6: the child or even a person like might so somebody

1324
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:35,120
Speaker 6: might like be shaving their head but posting online that

1325
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:38,600
Speaker 6: they have cancer and joining like support groups online or

1326
01:14:38,680 --> 01:14:42,880
Speaker 6: posting on Facebook on how they are or things like that. Yeah,

1327
01:14:43,080 --> 01:14:45,240
Speaker 6: so sometimes now we see, you know, the person doesn't

1328
01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:48,280
Speaker 6: even really have to be like making themselves sick because

1329
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:51,679
Speaker 6: it's all online, nobody actually like sees them.

1330
01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:54,559
Speaker 5: Or anything like that. And thing was sometimes what we'll

1331
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:55,880
Speaker 5: see them happening to a.

1332
01:14:55,960 --> 01:14:58,040
Speaker 6: Child or things like that, which I would say has

1333
01:14:58,080 --> 01:15:01,160
Speaker 6: been a pretty big increase. And I think I see

1334
01:15:01,200 --> 01:15:03,760
Speaker 6: this a lot on the TikTok or things like that,

1335
01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:08,560
Speaker 6: where exactly kicking alive and they're at the hospital and

1336
01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:13,519
Speaker 6: they seem happy to be sick and ill and they.

1337
01:15:15,439 --> 01:15:19,400
Speaker 2: Get gifts. Right, I've seen this, Jordan. Wow.

1338
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:24,919
Speaker 6: So that's how it's because sometimes people like actually obviously

1339
01:15:25,120 --> 01:15:28,599
Speaker 6: have illnesses and are in the hospital and educating for stuff,

1340
01:15:28,760 --> 01:15:32,320
Speaker 6: and so it really gets tricky because it really it's scary.

1341
01:15:32,400 --> 01:15:36,080
Speaker 6: It's so scary how many people you can fool by

1342
01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:38,920
Speaker 6: doing these sorts of things, and how it injures and

1343
01:15:39,080 --> 01:15:42,240
Speaker 6: hurts people that are actually chronically ill and struggling.

1344
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:43,360
Speaker 2: Wow.

1345
01:15:43,479 --> 01:15:46,200
Speaker 4: And yeah, I just scroll and I'm all of a sudden,

1346
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:48,760
Speaker 4: I'm in a hospital room with somebody and just like

1347
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:52,599
Speaker 4: Jordan described, bald Head and they're singing and accepting gifts,

1348
01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:55,080
Speaker 4: and I'm like something's going on here, like this is

1349
01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:56,880
Speaker 4: this is not right?

1350
01:15:57,000 --> 01:16:01,000
Speaker 2: Wow? So I didn't realize munchausen Kin present that way.

1351
01:16:01,040 --> 01:16:02,960
Speaker 4: I always thought it was something that you know, you

1352
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:05,600
Speaker 4: have to inflict on someone else, but it can just

1353
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:09,439
Speaker 4: be faking your own illness for drifting money attention.

1354
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:10,439
Speaker 2: I had no idea.

1355
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:14,160
Speaker 3: Well, that would be the bi proxy part, correct, Jordan,

1356
01:16:14,240 --> 01:16:16,040
Speaker 3: that makes sense, That makes total sense.

1357
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:21,320
Speaker 6: Syndrome or facticious disorder and poson cell is I'm doing

1358
01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:24,760
Speaker 6: this to myself for attention or things and then by

1359
01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:26,360
Speaker 6: proxy is fathered.

1360
01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:28,559
Speaker 2: Right, Well, listen, stick around.

1361
01:16:28,920 --> 01:16:32,160
Speaker 3: We are grateful that Jordan Hope will be doing the

1362
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:36,440
Speaker 3: same and they will be schooling us on the nuances

1363
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:40,640
Speaker 3: of Munchausen by proxy and sharing their story. Keep it

1364
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:43,280
Speaker 3: here True Crime Tonight, we are talking true crime all

1365
01:16:43,439 --> 01:16:43,800
Speaker 3: the time.

1366
01:16:54,479 --> 01:16:57,400
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight and iHeartRadio. We're talking

1367
01:16:57,479 --> 01:17:00,280
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

1368
01:17:00,360 --> 01:17:04,360
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong. Body move in, and we're joined by Jordan Hope,

1369
01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:08,439
Speaker 2: an advocate survivor of munch Houses by Proxy, which is

1370
01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:12,280
Speaker 2: really an important topic that we're tackling based on We're

1371
01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:16,240
Speaker 2: talking about our true crime and chill documentary Unknown Number.

1372
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:20,520
Speaker 2: I personally found it enraging and frankly a little irresponsible

1373
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:23,400
Speaker 2: for somebody who was committing harm to their child to

1374
01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:27,759
Speaker 2: be highlighted. We literally saw it, Jordan, when the cops

1375
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:31,280
Speaker 2: came in and they're like, uh, young Lauren, who's this

1376
01:17:31,439 --> 01:17:35,400
Speaker 2: little girl who's been like cyber abused. And mom is like, oh,

1377
01:17:35,760 --> 01:17:38,280
Speaker 2: Jordan's go you know, Lauren's going through it. And then

1378
01:17:38,360 --> 01:17:40,800
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, actually it was your mom. And you

1379
01:17:40,960 --> 01:17:44,040
Speaker 2: see young Lauren's face and it looks like she's being

1380
01:17:44,120 --> 01:17:47,560
Speaker 2: re traumatized by this experience, and I feels very irresponsible.

1381
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:50,280
Speaker 2: To me, it is horrible. It makes me so mad.

1382
01:17:50,600 --> 01:17:54,320
Speaker 2: And then I see Jordan here so smart, eloquent and

1383
01:17:55,040 --> 01:17:58,280
Speaker 2: sharing your story, and I feel mad for you also

1384
01:17:58,600 --> 01:18:01,200
Speaker 2: that you would have to be you know, put into

1385
01:18:01,280 --> 01:18:05,080
Speaker 2: a surgery back surgery, no less that could be life

1386
01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:08,640
Speaker 2: altering and maybe perhaps is. I mean you're living in

1387
01:18:09,720 --> 01:18:13,480
Speaker 2: It's like, come on. So it's such an important conversation

1388
01:18:13,800 --> 01:18:15,639
Speaker 2: because how the heck do you know what to look

1389
01:18:15,680 --> 01:18:18,479
Speaker 2: for in the world unless we're talking about it, right, So,

1390
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:21,040
Speaker 2: so thank you for doing that. And I know we

1391
01:18:21,120 --> 01:18:24,320
Speaker 2: want to add some proactive, productive things to be looking

1392
01:18:24,439 --> 01:18:27,760
Speaker 2: for for guidance and help should anybody listening and need it.

1393
01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:31,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, so let's just jump right into those those questions, Courtney,

1394
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:32,920
Speaker 4: do you want to go ahead and call fast?

1395
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:36,960
Speaker 3: Yeah? What is the what is the first steps someone

1396
01:18:37,080 --> 01:18:41,240
Speaker 3: can take or where can they go if they suspect

1397
01:18:41,720 --> 01:18:45,519
Speaker 3: that someone is abusing their child in this way? I mean,

1398
01:18:46,120 --> 01:18:49,240
Speaker 3: you know, as we spoke about before the commercial break,

1399
01:18:49,320 --> 01:18:52,800
Speaker 3: it's not illegal to lie to your doctor, and that's

1400
01:18:52,840 --> 01:18:55,000
Speaker 3: how that can get complicated and things can get missed.

1401
01:18:55,040 --> 01:18:57,960
Speaker 2: But what are action steps people can take?

1402
01:18:59,120 --> 01:18:59,760
Speaker 8: Absolutely?

1403
01:19:00,080 --> 01:19:06,040
Speaker 6: So of course there's reporting righty to CPS, CPSS, whoever

1404
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:10,000
Speaker 6: it is where you live, and that also can be

1405
01:19:10,200 --> 01:19:15,160
Speaker 6: very hard and very yeah, very difficult. I've had situations

1406
01:19:15,280 --> 01:19:19,679
Speaker 6: where I've called something in and nothing happens, somebody else

1407
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:22,000
Speaker 6: that I know calls it in and the child's taken out,

1408
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:23,760
Speaker 6: And it can just depend on who you talk to,

1409
01:19:24,680 --> 01:19:27,880
Speaker 6: what you say, what they know, like so many different things.

1410
01:19:28,560 --> 01:19:31,840
Speaker 6: But we do have an article that was kind of

1411
01:19:31,920 --> 01:19:36,200
Speaker 6: written is geared towards CPS, but the article at the

1412
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:39,280
Speaker 6: end kind of has a like template that can kind

1413
01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:41,760
Speaker 6: of help on reporting. So if you are someone that

1414
01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:45,200
Speaker 6: maybe is a mandative reporter or I'll often send this

1415
01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:48,719
Speaker 6: even to dads or other people that reach out looking

1416
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:51,479
Speaker 6: for what to do because I just find the template

1417
01:19:51,560 --> 01:19:52,880
Speaker 6: to be kind of helpful to.

1418
01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:54,200
Speaker 8: Know what to put in there.

1419
01:19:54,680 --> 01:19:58,639
Speaker 6: It can also help, obviously the more people that see

1420
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:02,280
Speaker 6: what's going on have and people report, especially, you know,

1421
01:20:02,479 --> 01:20:06,040
Speaker 6: if the child is in school, if you're able to

1422
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:09,560
Speaker 6: talk to the teachers or the doctors or whoever.

1423
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:11,240
Speaker 5: It is that's kind of involved with care.

1424
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:14,360
Speaker 6: Sometimes, of course they might not be able to give

1425
01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:17,160
Speaker 6: you information, but that doesn't mean you can't give them information.

1426
01:20:18,640 --> 01:20:21,280
Speaker 6: So sometimes those things can help as well.

1427
01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:24,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that.

1428
01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:28,080
Speaker 3: I just I just want to really highlight that just

1429
01:20:28,160 --> 01:20:30,960
Speaker 3: because they can't give you information about the child doesn't

1430
01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:32,719
Speaker 3: mean you can't give them information.

1431
01:20:32,880 --> 01:20:35,479
Speaker 2: I think that's really yeah important.

1432
01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:38,200
Speaker 6: So when I was four, there was an anonymous letter

1433
01:20:38,320 --> 01:20:40,519
Speaker 6: that was written. It was put in my confidential files,

1434
01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:42,360
Speaker 6: so I didn't know better for a long time of course,

1435
01:20:42,479 --> 01:20:45,280
Speaker 6: but there was an anonymous letters that someone had written

1436
01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:48,560
Speaker 6: in to my doctor asking if my mom could have

1437
01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:51,559
Speaker 6: been if the symptimes I was having could have been

1438
01:20:51,640 --> 01:20:55,479
Speaker 6: caused by pills for crones or cancer because my mom

1439
01:20:55,560 --> 01:20:57,920
Speaker 6: had access to those and it made this person worry.

1440
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:03,120
Speaker 6: But we knew and you were seeing those things.

1441
01:21:03,720 --> 01:21:05,840
Speaker 8: Mm hm, oh my godness.

1442
01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:08,839
Speaker 2: It's kind of like, yeah, and you said this earlier.

1443
01:21:09,080 --> 01:21:11,560
Speaker 2: I mean, again, this is heart wrenching, but it's a

1444
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:15,160
Speaker 2: crime of opportunity, right, So as a caregiver, as a mom,

1445
01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:17,840
Speaker 2: you have your child in your care and by the

1446
01:21:17,840 --> 01:21:21,400
Speaker 2: way their influenced, you can be influenced. Who hasn't experienced this,

1447
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:23,880
Speaker 2: God knows I have. Like, you don't notice it until

1448
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:26,720
Speaker 2: the doctor's like, actually you have an ulcer. Boy, you

1449
01:21:26,840 --> 01:21:29,680
Speaker 2: walk out that room and you're like, is killing me?

1450
01:21:30,320 --> 01:21:32,840
Speaker 2: Like you can't even get through the night right once

1451
01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:36,760
Speaker 2: it's been identified. So imagine someone's putting that in a

1452
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:39,360
Speaker 2: young person's mind who might have a back ache, you know,

1453
01:21:39,479 --> 01:21:42,360
Speaker 2: for whatever said reason. And you know that's real time.

1454
01:21:42,640 --> 01:21:45,440
Speaker 2: Now we've just told you, oh, you have a serious situation,

1455
01:21:46,400 --> 01:21:50,400
Speaker 2: and then and then and then, and the mental mind

1456
01:21:50,600 --> 01:21:53,920
Speaker 2: mess that must play on a young person is is

1457
01:21:54,000 --> 01:21:56,400
Speaker 2: frankly unparalleled in sickening.

1458
01:21:57,080 --> 01:21:57,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1459
01:21:57,920 --> 01:22:01,920
Speaker 2: Absolutely, What is what is healing process look like for you?

1460
01:22:02,040 --> 01:22:04,800
Speaker 2: Since then? Physically and emotionally? Can you tell us about

1461
01:22:04,840 --> 01:22:06,560
Speaker 2: what the healing has been like for you?

1462
01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:07,120
Speaker 8: Yeah?

1463
01:22:07,479 --> 01:22:11,679
Speaker 6: I would say obviously it's been what like a long

1464
01:22:11,800 --> 01:22:14,960
Speaker 6: time kind of now, like eight years. I don't know.

1465
01:22:15,080 --> 01:22:17,840
Speaker 6: I can't really be math. But it's been a long time,

1466
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:23,960
Speaker 6: and yeah, you're welcome. I still don't know like what's like,

1467
01:22:24,120 --> 01:22:27,920
Speaker 6: what's fully going on in my body. I still don't

1468
01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:31,040
Speaker 6: know what things might be psychosomatic, what might have been

1469
01:22:31,120 --> 01:22:34,280
Speaker 6: caused by the abuse, what are things that are just

1470
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:38,320
Speaker 6: normal body things. I've had so many situations with my

1471
01:22:38,520 --> 01:22:41,479
Speaker 6: roommate where I would be like, oh, you know when

1472
01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:44,519
Speaker 6: this thing happens and he would be like, no, no,

1473
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:47,280
Speaker 6: that's you need to see a doctor for that, and

1474
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:49,920
Speaker 6: I would be like, oh, I for sure thought that

1475
01:22:50,120 --> 01:22:53,360
Speaker 6: was just like a normal thing and stuff like that,

1476
01:22:53,680 --> 01:22:56,040
Speaker 6: or the opposite sometimes where I would be like I

1477
01:22:56,120 --> 01:22:57,800
Speaker 6: think I'm going to have to go the er, and

1478
01:22:57,880 --> 01:22:59,760
Speaker 6: there would be like have you taken time at all?

1479
01:23:00,200 --> 01:23:03,240
Speaker 6: And I'd be like, uh no, if you can't do

1480
01:23:03,400 --> 01:23:06,120
Speaker 6: that until after you go to the doctor. Uh So

1481
01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:09,040
Speaker 6: the healing process has been long, and I mean I

1482
01:23:09,080 --> 01:23:11,080
Speaker 6: think it will go for a long time. I think

1483
01:23:11,320 --> 01:23:14,280
Speaker 6: for me, and where I think helps a lot of people.

1484
01:23:14,320 --> 01:23:16,720
Speaker 8: Is if you are able to get access to your

1485
01:23:16,760 --> 01:23:17,519
Speaker 8: medical records.

1486
01:23:17,920 --> 01:23:22,200
Speaker 6: I think being able to read through how well reported

1487
01:23:22,439 --> 01:23:26,920
Speaker 6: everything was reported, everything was that I would say my

1488
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:29,400
Speaker 6: healing was like expedited by decades.

1489
01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:32,759
Speaker 8: Just because of that, I didn't have to just be like, oh.

1490
01:23:32,720 --> 01:23:34,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, I believe myself.

1491
01:23:34,520 --> 01:23:35,439
Speaker 8: I trust myself.

1492
01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:38,920
Speaker 5: After years of being told I couldn't believe or trust myself,

1493
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:39,839
Speaker 5: I was able.

1494
01:23:39,680 --> 01:23:41,400
Speaker 6: To like just have this proof and a lot of

1495
01:23:42,240 --> 01:23:43,080
Speaker 6: ever will have that.

1496
01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:45,200
Speaker 2: Yes, And that's so important.

1497
01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:46,479
Speaker 8: So many people don't get that.

1498
01:23:47,560 --> 01:23:51,000
Speaker 6: It like there's still the gas lighting and like I

1499
01:23:51,160 --> 01:23:54,280
Speaker 6: still get told like no, this could have happened or

1500
01:23:54,360 --> 01:23:56,439
Speaker 6: things like that, and it's like, but it's right.

1501
01:23:56,400 --> 01:23:59,400
Speaker 8: Here, like what do you you can't you?

1502
01:24:00,400 --> 01:24:00,599
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1503
01:24:02,680 --> 01:24:05,559
Speaker 6: That big that And I think the other really big

1504
01:24:05,760 --> 01:24:10,400
Speaker 6: piece too, is that you know, at first I thought

1505
01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:12,800
Speaker 6: I was sick my whole life. Then I find out

1506
01:24:13,120 --> 01:24:16,200
Speaker 6: everything I've ever thought about myself and the world and

1507
01:24:16,520 --> 01:24:18,840
Speaker 6: the people around me is a lie. None of it's true,

1508
01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:21,920
Speaker 6: none of it's real. So now I have no idea

1509
01:24:21,960 --> 01:24:23,479
Speaker 6: what to leave. So then I think, oh, well, I

1510
01:24:23,560 --> 01:24:24,519
Speaker 6: must be fully healthy.

1511
01:24:25,040 --> 01:24:28,600
Speaker 8: So then I try to just ignore.

1512
01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:31,400
Speaker 5: Ignore anything that's happening in my body.

1513
01:24:31,240 --> 01:24:36,439
Speaker 6: Ignore whatever's going on. And now because after a point,

1514
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:38,960
Speaker 6: after a long time, it's gone to a point where

1515
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:42,479
Speaker 6: I'm able to kind of hold both I'm healthy and

1516
01:24:42,680 --> 01:24:46,160
Speaker 6: I have sonic illnesses I'm healthy, and I still have

1517
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:48,519
Speaker 6: other things going on in my body that I have

1518
01:24:48,720 --> 01:24:52,639
Speaker 6: to take meds for, do treatments for, do different things.

1519
01:24:53,080 --> 01:24:55,360
Speaker 6: And I think that is something that I see so

1520
01:24:55,760 --> 01:24:59,840
Speaker 6: many survivors struggle with, and not even just survivors struggle with,

1521
01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:03,519
Speaker 6: but I feel like people on the outside around them

1522
01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:07,680
Speaker 6: also struggle to watch because I think a lot of

1523
01:25:07,760 --> 01:25:09,680
Speaker 6: times it's like, Oh, no, are you flipping.

1524
01:25:09,439 --> 01:25:10,840
Speaker 5: Back into these behaviors?

1525
01:25:11,280 --> 01:25:15,120
Speaker 6: Are you having Munchausen's yourself? Are you doing some things

1526
01:25:15,680 --> 01:25:20,400
Speaker 6: versus being able to recognize. Oh, of course, there's like

1527
01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:23,280
Speaker 6: all of these things happening, and you're still trying to

1528
01:25:23,400 --> 01:25:26,040
Speaker 6: like figure it out, and there might really be things

1529
01:25:26,120 --> 01:25:26,439
Speaker 6: going on.

1530
01:25:27,560 --> 01:25:32,840
Speaker 3: You have illuminated such a ripple effects from I don't

1531
01:25:32,960 --> 01:25:35,840
Speaker 3: know how. I hadn't really thought through the sort of

1532
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:39,720
Speaker 3: acute trauma that someone would go through, But everything you're

1533
01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:43,840
Speaker 3: describing is sounds like pure common sense. Jordan, And Yeah,

1534
01:25:46,160 --> 01:25:50,320
Speaker 3: I had a question about your record review work and

1535
01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:54,439
Speaker 3: can you explain why it's so crucial when advocating for

1536
01:25:55,160 --> 01:25:56,280
Speaker 3: MVPA victims.

1537
01:25:57,800 --> 01:26:00,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, so, record review work is some that I do

1538
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:05,600
Speaker 6: alongside other experts. So essentially, typically it's like the no

1539
01:26:05,720 --> 01:26:08,439
Speaker 6: if I mean family, I mean lawyers or people will

1540
01:26:08,479 --> 01:26:12,400
Speaker 6: reach out because they suspect that it's abuse and happening

1541
01:26:12,479 --> 01:26:18,719
Speaker 6: to a child. They'll send me thousands of records, medical records,

1542
01:26:18,840 --> 01:26:22,000
Speaker 6: school records, things like that, and then I'll go through

1543
01:26:22,400 --> 01:26:27,360
Speaker 6: and create an Excel spreadsheet that kind of puts everything

1544
01:26:27,439 --> 01:26:28,200
Speaker 6: in one spot.

1545
01:26:28,439 --> 01:26:30,280
Speaker 8: Sure, highlight the.

1546
01:26:32,120 --> 01:26:36,679
Speaker 6: It's nice. Sometimes it's like niction organized, but I'll highlight

1547
01:26:36,760 --> 01:26:39,680
Speaker 6: all this stuff that's like, you know, most concerning in

1548
01:26:39,760 --> 01:26:40,639
Speaker 6: the red flags.

1549
01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:43,200
Speaker 8: And sometimes sometimes that can.

1550
01:26:43,120 --> 01:26:45,400
Speaker 6: Be helpful to bring to court, or to bring to

1551
01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:48,680
Speaker 6: doctors or to anyone to say, hey, we know you

1552
01:26:48,720 --> 01:26:51,120
Speaker 6: don't want to read thousands of pages and then you

1553
01:26:51,160 --> 01:26:53,720
Speaker 6: don't know what you'd be looking for, but here's this

1554
01:26:53,960 --> 01:26:56,320
Speaker 6: thing where it's all like laid out for you and

1555
01:26:56,400 --> 01:26:58,120
Speaker 6: you can read it within a matter of minutes.

1556
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:01,479
Speaker 8: We definitely see that help in cases.

1557
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:05,759
Speaker 6: Sometimes sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you know, it's still.

1558
01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:09,120
Speaker 4: I think it's also powerful because it gives you a

1559
01:27:09,160 --> 01:27:12,160
Speaker 4: little bit of control too. Write like you need to

1560
01:27:12,320 --> 01:27:16,320
Speaker 4: control a little bit about what's been happening and present

1561
01:27:16,479 --> 01:27:19,320
Speaker 4: it in a way that you can explain it well

1562
01:27:19,680 --> 01:27:23,799
Speaker 4: and it's easily understandable for the doctors or law enforcement

1563
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:26,679
Speaker 4: and whoever you're dealing with. I mean, I'm sure speaking

1564
01:27:26,760 --> 01:27:30,960
Speaker 4: of that though, is this an illegal thing? Is Munchausen's

1565
01:27:31,000 --> 01:27:31,479
Speaker 4: by proxy?

1566
01:27:31,600 --> 01:27:36,439
Speaker 2: Is it illegal? Like, yeah, that's I don't think so. Yeah.

1567
01:27:36,840 --> 01:27:39,200
Speaker 2: Oh that's why I was mad about Kendra in the

1568
01:27:39,280 --> 01:27:41,280
Speaker 2: documentary and not getting arrested. And I love it that

1569
01:27:41,360 --> 01:27:43,120
Speaker 2: where I was like, why are we watching hercies should

1570
01:27:43,120 --> 01:27:43,719
Speaker 2: behind bars?

1571
01:27:44,360 --> 01:27:44,479
Speaker 4: Right?

1572
01:27:44,840 --> 01:27:46,519
Speaker 2: Is that not a Is that not illegal?

1573
01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:48,240
Speaker 4: No?

1574
01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:50,960
Speaker 6: So, I mean it's kind of like what I said

1575
01:27:51,080 --> 01:27:53,320
Speaker 6: right where it's it's not illegal.

1576
01:27:53,080 --> 01:27:54,320
Speaker 5: To lie to your doctors.

1577
01:27:54,960 --> 01:27:56,880
Speaker 8: There's you know, a lot of people out there.

1578
01:27:56,840 --> 01:28:01,680
Speaker 6: Trying to bring this out and high create laws and

1579
01:28:01,760 --> 01:28:05,479
Speaker 6: things like that around it, but it's hard. It's so

1580
01:28:05,960 --> 01:28:10,280
Speaker 6: hard for people to grasp. Nobody wants to think that

1581
01:28:10,840 --> 01:28:14,080
Speaker 6: a mother is harming a child, and I think that

1582
01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:16,400
Speaker 6: is like one of the biggest step points within this.

1583
01:28:17,560 --> 01:28:21,479
Speaker 2: We should continue this conversation about narcissistic women too, because

1584
01:28:21,520 --> 01:28:23,200
Speaker 2: we know there's a lot of cases and it it

1585
01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:26,720
Speaker 2: becomes such a you know, I think it's mother's are

1586
01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:30,280
Speaker 2: just worth a deep dive because look, your body keeps

1587
01:28:30,320 --> 01:28:32,800
Speaker 2: the score, right. Isn't that that famous book where you

1588
01:28:32,880 --> 01:28:37,840
Speaker 2: know trauma also, yeah, feeds kind of your body. Well

1589
01:28:37,920 --> 01:28:40,840
Speaker 2: it takes a toll. So here you are identifying as

1590
01:28:40,880 --> 01:28:45,080
Speaker 2: someone sickly. Now that's removed. Oh well look what's your identity.

1591
01:28:45,200 --> 01:28:48,360
Speaker 2: Now that's a really scary place to have to start

1592
01:28:48,400 --> 01:28:52,840
Speaker 2: from as a young person. And I can't imagine. And boy,

1593
01:28:52,920 --> 01:28:56,160
Speaker 2: are you you're you're you're talking the heroes talk and

1594
01:28:56,320 --> 01:28:58,439
Speaker 2: you really I've learned so much.

1595
01:28:58,760 --> 01:29:03,240
Speaker 4: I mean, I mean, in a way it's so inspiring. Yeah, wow,

1596
01:29:03,320 --> 01:29:05,240
Speaker 4: thank you so much. I mean, I just it's just

1597
01:29:05,320 --> 01:29:09,040
Speaker 4: so interesting. What does justice look like for survivors of this?

1598
01:29:11,960 --> 01:29:15,160
Speaker 6: I it's different, right for every person. I think that

1599
01:29:15,600 --> 01:29:21,120
Speaker 6: some people justice looks like their perpetrator no longer being alive.

1600
01:29:21,720 --> 01:29:25,360
Speaker 6: For some people, justice looks like they're perpetrator being locked

1601
01:29:25,439 --> 01:29:30,360
Speaker 6: up and gone forever. Some people want revenge. Some people

1602
01:29:31,280 --> 01:29:32,760
Speaker 6: want their moms.

1603
01:29:32,560 --> 01:29:36,040
Speaker 5: Still to get better and so see like that hope

1604
01:29:36,120 --> 01:29:36,760
Speaker 5: and stuff like that.

1605
01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:39,960
Speaker 6: And I think for everyone it's so different, and it's

1606
01:29:40,040 --> 01:29:44,960
Speaker 6: so important for everyone to get to obviously not like

1607
01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:49,000
Speaker 6: have revenge necessarily or things like that, but maybe like

1608
01:29:49,040 --> 01:29:52,040
Speaker 6: be able to explore that in therapy or in safe spaces,

1609
01:29:52,200 --> 01:29:54,680
Speaker 6: like what that could look like to be able to

1610
01:29:54,760 --> 01:29:56,559
Speaker 6: kind of get that out of your body or things

1611
01:29:56,640 --> 01:30:01,160
Speaker 6: like that. I know, for me, I all I wanted

1612
01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:05,360
Speaker 6: was for my mom to get better and for her

1613
01:30:05,520 --> 01:30:10,240
Speaker 6: to have a chance. Obviously she passed away so that

1614
01:30:10,280 --> 01:30:13,840
Speaker 6: didn't happen. But now I think for me a lot

1615
01:30:13,920 --> 01:30:17,240
Speaker 6: of what justice looks like to me still even with

1616
01:30:17,360 --> 01:30:19,400
Speaker 6: her now that she passed away.

1617
01:30:19,880 --> 01:30:22,400
Speaker 8: To me, justice is me.

1618
01:30:22,600 --> 01:30:23,920
Speaker 5: Being able to live my life.

1619
01:30:24,120 --> 01:30:26,120
Speaker 6: To me, being able to go out and do things

1620
01:30:26,320 --> 01:30:32,040
Speaker 6: and not be yes and speak up about it and

1621
01:30:32,160 --> 01:30:37,520
Speaker 6: to not be so stuck still because of her actions

1622
01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:38,519
Speaker 6: or what happened.

1623
01:30:39,520 --> 01:30:42,519
Speaker 2: You know, the wounded are the best healers, right, so

1624
01:30:43,439 --> 01:30:46,519
Speaker 2: here you are, you know, thank you for doing that,

1625
01:30:46,680 --> 01:30:50,120
Speaker 2: because I can promise like we're all sort of I'm

1626
01:30:50,240 --> 01:30:51,200
Speaker 2: jaw dropped right now.

1627
01:30:51,439 --> 01:30:56,280
Speaker 3: So yeah, you've really illuminated so much. I mean, thank you,

1628
01:30:56,920 --> 01:31:01,440
Speaker 3: Jank you yeah, Jordan, Oh, thank you for joining.

1629
01:31:01,280 --> 01:31:03,320
Speaker 2: Us, Davis. Yeah, thank you we havev.

1630
01:31:05,600 --> 01:31:09,120
Speaker 3: So yeah, thanks for sharing your story, your advocacy, and

1631
01:31:09,439 --> 01:31:13,720
Speaker 3: for helping clear up common myths around this condition and

1632
01:31:13,920 --> 01:31:19,160
Speaker 3: misconceptions and what people can actually do. So if anyone

1633
01:31:19,200 --> 01:31:22,280
Speaker 3: would like to connect with Jordan, you can find them

1634
01:31:22,280 --> 01:31:27,640
Speaker 3: on Instagram and TikTok at Flourishing Wildly on LinkedIn at

1635
01:31:27,720 --> 01:31:31,719
Speaker 3: Jordan Hope or by email, and that is at Flourishing

1636
01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:33,479
Speaker 3: Wildly at gmail dot com.

1637
01:31:34,120 --> 01:31:38,639
Speaker 2: Thank you again. Yeah, it was a real pleasure. Beautiful

1638
01:31:38,720 --> 01:31:41,479
Speaker 2: days ahead, and yeah, check back in with us because

1639
01:31:41,479 --> 01:31:44,439
Speaker 2: this conversation can continue. We didn't get to one single

1640
01:31:44,560 --> 01:31:48,080
Speaker 2: talk back. We won caller despite the phone we were ringing,

1641
01:31:48,320 --> 01:31:51,840
Speaker 2: so we sort of held Jordan hostage. We did. That's

1642
01:31:51,920 --> 01:31:55,320
Speaker 2: how new this information is. So again, I think if

1643
01:31:55,360 --> 01:31:58,080
Speaker 2: you have questions or anything that we can feed them

1644
01:31:58,160 --> 01:32:02,320
Speaker 2: to you separately or off line, Jordan, because we didn't

1645
01:32:02,360 --> 01:32:04,559
Speaker 2: let anybody in the combo. This is one of those

1646
01:32:04,720 --> 01:32:08,519
Speaker 2: nights so we monopolize their time, we monopolize your time

1647
01:32:09,000 --> 01:32:11,000
Speaker 2: and edge of our seat. So thank you for the

1648
01:32:11,120 --> 01:32:14,480
Speaker 2: awareness and listen, we'll be back tomorrow. Talk back tuesdays,

1649
01:32:14,600 --> 01:32:18,040
Speaker 2: so keep those talkbacks coming. Make sure make sure make

1650
01:32:18,080 --> 01:32:21,519
Speaker 2: sure this is true crime tonight. We've been talking true

1651
01:32:21,560 --> 01:32:25,160
Speaker 2: crime all the time. Listen, stay safe out there, and

1652
01:32:25,680 --> 01:32:28,800
Speaker 2: we will be back tomorrow. Bye, good Nay