WEBVTT - Lanterns Season 1 Roundtable 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:05.320 Warning, today's episode will contain spoilers for Lanterns on HBO 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.790 Max and some comic book lore, some of the more 0:00:08.820 --> 0:00:10.690 recent comic book lore, be warned. 0:00:10.710 --> 0:00:27.670 Hello, my name is Jason Concepcion. 0:00:28.230 --> 0:00:29.030 And I'm Rosie Knight. 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:32.879 And welcome back to X-Ray Vision, the podcast where we 0:00:32.900 --> 0:00:35.479 dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics, and pop culture. 0:00:35.940 --> 0:00:37.680 Coming to you from my heart, where we're bringing you 0:00:37.700 --> 0:00:39.220 three episodes a week, plus news on Saturday. 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:43.940 Plus news! In today's episode, our super producers Abu and 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:46.410 Joelle are coming in from O.R. They've been there. We 0:00:46.420 --> 0:00:48.470 haven't seen it. Don't ask them what it looks like. 0:00:48.810 --> 0:00:50.870 But they've been there and they're coming to tell us their. 0:00:50.729 --> 0:00:54.810 Thoughts about Lanterns. It's been the biggest show of the season. 0:00:54.870 --> 0:00:56.630 We've been covering it every week and we're here for 0:00:56.650 --> 0:00:59.030 a roundtable to talk all about it. 0:01:01.700 --> 0:01:06.180 Joelle, Abu, welcome to the program. We're recording this a 0:01:06.260 --> 0:01:10.420 day after we recorded, Rosie and I recorded our finale 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:15.270 recap episode. And, you know, we've all had some extra 0:01:15.290 --> 0:01:17.530 time to think about it. And the thing that I 0:01:17.569 --> 0:01:20.530 think is most present in my mind is this question, 0:01:20.650 --> 0:01:25.030 and I'm interested to hear your take. Did it stick 0:01:25.090 --> 0:01:31.470 the landing? Did lanterns stick the landing at Episodes one 0:01:31.510 --> 0:01:34.569 through seven, what was your feeling about the show? And 0:01:34.590 --> 0:01:39.310 did the finale move it up or down, either slightly 0:01:39.390 --> 0:01:42.970 or greatly in either direction? Joelle, let's start with you. 0:01:43.230 --> 0:01:44.710 Did it stick the landing? 0:01:46.530 --> 0:01:51.640 Abu and I talked about this yesterday, and I think emotionally... 0:01:51.620 --> 0:01:56.120 we got there emotionally. I was all, I'm crying at the, the, 0:01:56.220 --> 0:01:59.310 the new oath. I thought Rosie and I talked about 0:01:59.330 --> 0:02:03.430 the car scene and how affecting that was. And, you know, 0:02:03.510 --> 0:02:04.790 was it a little bit of a commercial? 0:02:04.930 --> 0:02:05.190 Sure. 0:02:05.230 --> 0:02:07.690 But that's how we make things. Now we hire a 0:02:07.730 --> 0:02:09.690 car company to pay us lots of money and we 0:02:09.810 --> 0:02:12.919 shoot it pretty. I thought one, one quote, I will 0:02:13.020 --> 0:02:18.260 give from Tom Keene. He said, lanterns are cops. John 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:22.060 Stewart's a superhero. And I said, Fuck yeah. Really liked 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:24.780 that switch up where he's like, I'm not going to 0:02:24.820 --> 0:02:29.090 be part of the core. I'm something completely different. And 0:02:29.130 --> 0:02:32.510 that leaves me in this really interesting space moving forward 0:02:32.550 --> 0:02:34.350 with John. Like this is completely different. 0:02:35.460 --> 0:02:37.760 To be fair, he does let a cop get away 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:38.260 with murder. 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:39.620 He does do that. 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:41.020 He does. 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:42.660 He also waterboard someone. 0:02:42.700 --> 0:02:46.400 He might be a cop in spirit, if not officially. 0:02:46.419 --> 0:02:48.580 He was trained. 0:02:48.210 --> 0:02:51.770 In the SEALs, okay? He's seen some stuff. He's been 0:02:51.870 --> 0:02:55.470 shot at as a child. You know, he's seen a lot. 0:02:55.530 --> 0:02:58.270 He's a damaged human being. He's not perfect. I don't 0:02:58.310 --> 0:03:00.450 want my superheroes perfect. I don't know if I want 0:03:00.470 --> 0:03:01.450 them waterboarding either. 0:03:01.990 --> 0:03:02.250 I don't. 0:03:02.270 --> 0:03:05.790 But I think overall, I'm still on the fence about it. 0:03:05.790 --> 0:03:06.459 I'm thinking about it. 0:03:06.730 --> 0:03:08.399 No, no fence. 0:03:08.410 --> 0:03:12.900 So I think we came to a pretty good place. 0:03:12.940 --> 0:03:14.760 I liked what you were saying, Jason, in the breakdown, 0:03:14.780 --> 0:03:17.540 which was like, this is a good series that might 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:20.160 have been great. At points it was touching greatness, but 0:03:20.260 --> 0:03:22.520 overall it didn't quite hit great. I don't know. What 0:03:22.540 --> 0:03:25.840 did you think of Boo? Yeah. Did it land? 0:03:27.180 --> 0:03:29.799 That was a really nuanced response, Joelle. And I think 0:03:29.860 --> 0:03:32.790 my take is a little more blunt. No, I don't 0:03:32.810 --> 0:03:35.150 think the show stuck the landing at all. And in fact, 0:03:35.210 --> 0:03:40.310 I think the finale fumbled what was building up to 0:03:40.370 --> 0:03:43.770 a really great season of television. And I found myself 0:03:43.790 --> 0:03:47.070 really disappointed. I remember watching episode seven, texting a buddy 0:03:47.110 --> 0:03:51.210 who has been watching as well and saying, damn, Lanterns 0:03:51.270 --> 0:03:53.730 is so good. I'm having such a fun time watching 0:03:53.770 --> 0:03:58.089 this show. And then the finale really deflated a lot 0:03:58.110 --> 0:04:00.660 of my feelings about it. I think I agree with 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:04.760 Joelle that emotionally, some of the beats really landed for me. 0:04:06.100 --> 0:04:10.800 As cheesy as recharging your ring with a limerick is 0:04:10.860 --> 0:04:16.099 or whatever, I was still endeared to do it. It 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:18.920 worked for me. It was cheesy, but I was like, oh, 0:04:18.980 --> 0:04:23.339 I get it. Okay, that worked on me. The goodbye between... 0:04:23.540 --> 0:04:26.930 John and Hal, I thought was very sweet. I love you, Junior. 0:04:26.940 --> 0:04:29.350 That got me for sure. So there were these like 0:04:29.790 --> 0:04:34.270 little emotional beats that worked for me sort of in 0:04:34.310 --> 0:04:36.950 a vacuum on their own. But then when I stepped 0:04:37.010 --> 0:04:41.469 back and considered the entire season as a whole narratively, boy, 0:04:41.510 --> 0:04:45.010 do I have questions. And boy, did I walk away disappointed. 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:47.160 I rewatched it. 0:04:47.220 --> 0:04:49.359 Jason, could I just say like that to jump on 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:52.560 a booze thing? I did rewatch the finale and just 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:56.570 as a TLDR, they kill. 0:04:56.170 --> 0:05:03.490 The female love interest. She is killed off to save 0:05:04.010 --> 0:05:04.429 a man. 0:05:04.450 --> 0:05:08.539 Then the other main female character, who's also a love interest, 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:13.180 kills the man. And the other woman in the show 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.520 is a blackmailer. I just want to say like, and 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:19.950 also Bernadette is Bernadette. So the women in this show, 0:05:19.990 --> 0:05:22.930 when you start to rewatch it, the writing is not 0:05:23.010 --> 0:05:24.409 up to par on all levels. 0:05:24.450 --> 0:05:25.330 Let me put it that way. 0:05:25.970 --> 0:05:29.880 I think that's right. So let's, let's dig into why 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.640 it did or did not stick the landing a little bit. Rosie, 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:36.260 you know, like I agree with everything you said. For me, it's, 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:42.520 if there's a major thing, it's It's crazy to me 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:45.700 that Jon Stewart just lets Carrie get away. 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:47.140 With. 0:05:47.779 --> 0:05:49.279 It's not even like she had the gun in her 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:55.250 hand and she got excited. She pulls it out, turns around, 0:05:55.270 --> 0:06:01.330 and with a good shooting form, shoots him dead in 0:06:01.370 --> 0:06:01.830 the head. 0:06:01.850 --> 0:06:02.430 She does do that. 0:06:02.510 --> 0:06:05.430 And then Jon Stewart's just like, okay. So for me, 0:06:05.510 --> 0:06:09.270 that is the one thing that really kind of negates it. 0:06:09.380 --> 0:06:09.659 And then. 0:06:11.589 --> 0:06:14.410 I posted this in the Signal chat. I also posted 0:06:14.450 --> 0:06:18.039 about it on Instagram. There's a recent case in Arizona 0:06:18.300 --> 0:06:22.660 where they had to throw out a sentencing of a 0:06:22.740 --> 0:06:30.320 road rage attacker because an AI video of the victim 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.440 was played in court in which the AI version of 0:06:33.460 --> 0:06:38.520 the person forgives the the killer. What the fuck? 0:06:38.700 --> 0:06:42.140 That was programmed by the victim's sister, by the way. 0:06:42.220 --> 0:06:43.310 It was suspicious. 0:06:43.430 --> 0:06:45.270 I'm not going to lie. It's very weird. Sounds like 0:06:45.290 --> 0:06:47.089 the man killed her brother for her. 0:06:47.370 --> 0:06:50.510 I hate to say it, but is this not the 0:06:51.050 --> 0:06:55.240 season finale of Lanterns in which an AI version of 0:06:55.300 --> 0:07:02.060 a guy basically gives us emotional permission to forgive his 0:07:02.220 --> 0:07:03.040 own murderer? 0:07:03.060 --> 0:07:04.620 And then when you. 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:05.640 Dig into it, when you really. 0:07:06.010 --> 0:07:08.880 When you really dig into it more, first of all, 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.520 Hal didn't update the AI in the 10 years since 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:14.400 he had been in prison. Second of all, over the 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:18.340 previous 20, he had maybe updated it once. He had 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.140 only called it out once and certainly not updated it 0:07:21.500 --> 0:07:24.390 or maybe not updated it at all previously. So what 0:07:24.410 --> 0:07:29.970 you're dealing with is an AI version of Hal that 0:07:30.090 --> 0:07:31.900 is 20 years out of date. 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:32.520 Wait, wait, wait. 0:07:32.620 --> 0:07:33.220 I do, no, no, no. 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:35.300 I just want to put, I do want to say 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:39.320 they left this open because I will say, people have 0:07:39.340 --> 0:07:42.760 pointed this out, him calling him junior at the end 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.230 instead of trainee, there is a reading of that where 0:07:46.270 --> 0:07:49.390 that is that it was always updated how, and this 0:07:49.430 --> 0:07:52.830 was just him being able to treat him how he 0:07:52.950 --> 0:07:53.850 used to be. 0:07:53.930 --> 0:07:56.030 Because how else would he know he ever called him junior? 0:07:56.390 --> 0:07:58.410 That he only ever calls him that in the end. 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:03.100 Because that's what his response to this person would be. 0:08:03.580 --> 0:08:04.840 This is how he talks. 0:08:04.900 --> 0:08:07.060 It's like if he goes into his, it's like, yeah, 0:08:07.100 --> 0:08:09.520 but if like the AI goes into a deli and 0:08:09.610 --> 0:08:12.150 is like, hey chief, and Hal also used to call. 0:08:11.990 --> 0:08:12.290 That guy chief. 0:08:12.330 --> 0:08:13.910 Hal Jordan as a person is the kind of guy 0:08:13.970 --> 0:08:15.830 that just calls people junior. 0:08:15.950 --> 0:08:17.190 I'm not defending the show. 0:08:17.270 --> 0:08:19.630 I'm just saying there's bad writing about. 0:08:19.650 --> 0:08:20.770 Like this is the problem. 0:08:20.830 --> 0:08:23.310 If you start digging into it though, this is, I 0:08:23.370 --> 0:08:25.630 do think Jason, something you highlight. 0:08:26.090 --> 0:08:26.290 Yeah. 0:08:26.330 --> 0:08:28.330 So that's what it is for me is the kind of, 0:08:28.870 --> 0:08:31.270 moral and ethical. 0:08:31.610 --> 0:08:32.610 There's no moral. 0:08:32.730 --> 0:08:35.750 I think kind of nightmare situation in which you've allowed 0:08:35.770 --> 0:08:40.350 a law enforcement officer to kill their partner and basically 0:08:40.370 --> 0:08:41.390 you're like, it's fine. 0:08:41.450 --> 0:08:42.189 Well, not just that. 0:08:42.230 --> 0:08:45.030 And Jon Stewart says it's fine. So, yes. 0:08:45.390 --> 0:08:50.640 The children, the entirety of Jon Stewart's arc is his 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:53.720 parents abuse him, acknowledged by the writer. She said she 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:55.199 thought they were going to get more pushback because it 0:08:55.220 --> 0:08:57.840 was so abusive. A Tom King idea we have learned. 0:08:58.500 --> 0:09:03.120 And that whole story arc is about how it's okay 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:05.450 to do that if your kid gets the job that 0:09:05.490 --> 0:09:08.130 you were abusing him for. Because at the end, he 0:09:08.170 --> 0:09:10.250 just hugs his family and they're all super stoked he 0:09:10.290 --> 0:09:11.850 got the job and everything's fine. 0:09:11.910 --> 0:09:14.650 I mean, that slow-mo scene made no sense. 0:09:14.870 --> 0:09:17.679 This is a moral and ethical issue within the show. 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:20.340 There's no morals and ethics. That's the problem when you 0:09:20.380 --> 0:09:23.460 have There's not a clear thing. This is a hero 0:09:23.500 --> 0:09:25.699 who's not a cop, but it's okay for him to waterboard. 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:28.260 And he's not a cop, but it's okay for him 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:29.179 to let a cop go. 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:31.300 There isn't a moral through line of the show when 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:32.800 you rewatch it. That's the problem. 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:38.780 Somebody on our YouTube page, or maybe on our Instagram page, 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:44.900 did say, talking about the montage, that like, well, you know. 0:09:44.970 --> 0:09:45.620 It was in Discord. 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:46.350 It was really cool. 0:09:47.970 --> 0:09:51.930 Isn't this just how families, and in particular Black families, 0:09:52.230 --> 0:09:53.910 react to each other? There's a lot of stuff going 0:09:54.010 --> 0:09:56.370 on below the surface, but you walk in, you dap 0:09:56.450 --> 0:09:58.610 up everybody. And I think that there's something to that. 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:03.160 Although I also believe that the tone in general, the 0:10:03.220 --> 0:10:06.770 tone in general was very, like, we're not getting a 0:10:06.830 --> 0:10:08.770 second season and this is over. So I think there 0:10:08.830 --> 0:10:27.250 is something of that. I want to find out why 0:10:27.350 --> 0:10:30.890 we either think it didn't land or did land. So 0:10:30.910 --> 0:10:34.370 let's start with Joelle. Land or didn't land, what was 0:10:34.429 --> 0:10:35.870 it specifically? What was the thing? 0:10:36.530 --> 0:10:36.949 Okay. 0:10:37.390 --> 0:10:37.590 Okay. 0:10:37.610 --> 0:10:40.670 I'm going to say some controversial things. I'll be prepared 0:10:40.690 --> 0:10:42.430 to be taken out back and shot with an apple 0:10:42.450 --> 0:10:46.830 on my head. I hate to stand up for a cop. 0:10:46.910 --> 0:10:48.750 I don't know if I'm doing that really, but hear 0:10:48.770 --> 0:10:52.819 me out. Here's my thought. We don't fully know what 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:55.720 Kelly was running from in Gotham, right? But we know 0:10:55.740 --> 0:10:57.600 she was running and that her life was on the line. 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:01.459 We know that she is a single mother raising a 0:11:01.500 --> 0:11:04.790 child who has a potential to to become exceedingly violent 0:11:05.170 --> 0:11:07.150 at the drop of a hat. And that the one 0:11:07.210 --> 0:11:10.070 thing that's keeping him grounded is his mother. 0:11:10.090 --> 0:11:13.250 And we know- Is that Sheriff Carey's police union lawyer 0:11:13.309 --> 0:11:13.890 that I hear? 0:11:13.929 --> 0:11:17.010 And we do know- And. 0:11:16.950 --> 0:11:18.390 We do know- Just. 0:11:18.150 --> 0:11:20.470 Hear me out, hear me out, hear me out. 0:11:20.690 --> 0:11:22.270 And we do know- Sorry, I'm. 0:11:22.150 --> 0:11:22.870 Sorry, I'm sorry. 0:11:22.890 --> 0:11:23.750 Go ahead. 0:11:23.809 --> 0:11:28.460 And we do know that I think with Hal's AI system, 0:11:29.059 --> 0:11:32.240 he's constantly flipping back with more information than we see 0:11:32.300 --> 0:11:36.700 him taken right now we did see it's confusing and 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:38.179 again maybe this is we can chalk this up to 0:11:38.220 --> 0:11:39.839 poor writing because sometimes he would come back and he 0:11:39.860 --> 0:11:41.180 would be like I have no idea what's going on 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.020 but sometimes he would come back with knowledge so what 0:11:44.140 --> 0:11:47.420 is the the balance of that we're not sure I 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:51.370 do think it is on occasion reasonable as somebody who 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.270 does not necessarily believe in prisons that people are like 0:11:54.790 --> 0:11:57.050 it does not feel just to me to lock somebody 0:11:57.090 --> 0:11:59.390 in a cell and leave them for 40 years that 0:11:59.429 --> 0:12:02.319 doesn't bring back the person I lost It doesn't help 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:03.200 them or society. 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:06.000 She's protecting a school shooter. That's her. She shot a 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:06.640 man to protect. 0:12:06.660 --> 0:12:10.280 He's not a school shooter yet though. 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:12.660 He has the potential to become one. And we know 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:16.060 that an active parent in a child's life can deter that. 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:19.400 So I can somewhat see John Sting to be like, 0:12:19.500 --> 0:12:23.090 I don't know if locking you up. Now is that justice? 0:12:23.130 --> 0:12:24.729 Not to me. Not my eyes. 0:12:24.870 --> 0:12:26.050 I would like more information. I wish the show had 0:12:26.070 --> 0:12:29.310 the abolitionist viewpoint you do, Joelle. But that's just bad writing. 0:12:29.350 --> 0:12:32.370 They're not thinking that far. They're just like, women are crazy. 0:12:32.390 --> 0:12:33.790 All women are crazy. 0:12:34.150 --> 0:12:36.980 Joel, can I ask, where do you stand on the 0:12:37.250 --> 0:12:44.280 idea of an AI version of Hal giving John and 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:50.390 the audience permission to basically let Carrie off the hook 0:12:50.530 --> 0:12:53.650 for killing the real life version of him? 0:12:55.830 --> 0:12:57.750 I don't think AI should be allowed to make life 0:12:57.809 --> 0:13:03.650 and death decisions. I stand on anything. I do think 0:13:03.670 --> 0:13:06.380 this is a weird kind of, I don't know, like 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:08.579 it's a weird like copy of himself. Does it apply 0:13:08.620 --> 0:13:11.400 by our, our real world AI rules? I don't know. 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:16.080 So that's, that's why I give the slight open door 0:13:16.179 --> 0:13:18.839 just in case like this weird, like, is it an 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:23.720 actual detailed copy of this person? Not just a programmed, 0:13:23.940 --> 0:13:24.760 you know what I mean? 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.420 We don't know because they never told us or showed us. 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:28.620 Exactly. 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:34.480 I mean, I'm assuming it's like, obviously it's galactic comic book, oh, attack. 0:13:34.500 --> 0:13:36.980 So it's like, it is a hologram basically. 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:37.660 Yeah. Right. 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:44.070 But, but also it's not him. Like it's not him. Anyway. 0:13:44.530 --> 0:13:46.949 Would you let a 20 year younger version of yourself 0:13:47.429 --> 0:13:49.010 make decisions about you? 0:13:49.090 --> 0:13:51.570 No. No, no, no. I don't know. 0:13:52.309 --> 0:13:53.110 Abu, what about you? 0:13:53.190 --> 0:13:56.870 What was it that moved the needle down to did 0:13:56.910 --> 0:13:59.209 not land for you? What was the main thing? 0:14:00.770 --> 0:14:04.550 I think for me, coming into this show, I had 0:14:04.570 --> 0:14:07.790 a lot of interest in wanting to learn about the 0:14:07.830 --> 0:14:11.840 lanterns and the lantern universe because I have essentially no 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:15.000 history with it. And like part of what I enjoyed 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:17.760 about the show is that it eased me in, right? 0:14:17.780 --> 0:14:20.650 There wasn't a bunch of like, lore and terminology thrown 0:14:20.690 --> 0:14:23.510 at me episode one that I had to later YouTube 0:14:23.550 --> 0:14:26.600 or Google just to understand what was going on. And 0:14:26.890 --> 0:14:29.020 I think by the time we got to the finale, 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.320 I'm still just really confused about Sinestro. 0:14:32.660 --> 0:14:35.140 I'm really confused about what. 0:14:34.980 --> 0:14:37.660 The Manhunter's powers are. 0:14:37.740 --> 0:14:38.300 No one knows. 0:14:38.420 --> 0:14:41.360 Frankly, the whole show is telling me Manhunter bad, this 0:14:41.460 --> 0:14:46.590 kid bad, his grandma bad. But then they're showing me 0:14:46.630 --> 0:14:49.670 like everyone in the town is healthy and Kelly's pinky 0:14:49.710 --> 0:14:52.230 grew back. And they've only ever really done good things 0:14:52.290 --> 0:14:54.290 as far as we can see on screen. 0:14:54.340 --> 0:14:55.479 Kelly can have a child. 0:14:56.100 --> 0:14:59.020 Kelly can have a child and like a fulfilling life 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:03.780 as a mother. When did the Manhunter do bad in 0:15:04.020 --> 0:15:04.920 this entire show? 0:15:04.950 --> 0:15:06.890 In the genocide that they did a flashback to. 0:15:06.910 --> 0:15:10.410 If you know the lore, you probably understand Manhunter bad, duh. 0:15:10.490 --> 0:15:13.890 But me, I don't. And so I left the finale 0:15:14.050 --> 0:15:16.050 more confused than I came into this show. 0:15:16.690 --> 0:15:19.150 Just want to say, Abu, actually, most deep cut DC 0:15:19.170 --> 0:15:21.010 fans don't know who the Manhunters are. This was an 0:15:21.050 --> 0:15:24.130 incredibly confusing choice. People think it's the same as the 0:15:24.150 --> 0:15:25.530 Martian Manhunter, Jean-Jean's. 0:15:25.630 --> 0:15:26.240 It's not. 0:15:26.580 --> 0:15:29.160 This is a deep cut, weird pull that has only 0:15:29.220 --> 0:15:32.340 confused people. It was not something that was easily known 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:33.600 and they didn't explain it well. 0:15:33.740 --> 0:15:34.859 OK, glad it wasn't just me then. 0:15:35.260 --> 0:15:38.370 Yeah, Abu, I think that's a good note. And we're 0:15:38.390 --> 0:15:40.190 going to talk in a little bit. I'm going to 0:15:40.410 --> 0:15:42.210 ask us like who we think the villain of this 0:15:42.430 --> 0:15:45.880 show is. was and was it meant to be somebody 0:15:45.980 --> 0:15:49.640 else originally but now Rosie I want you now it's 0:15:49.700 --> 0:15:53.590 time for you to load the chopper and get that 0:15:53.670 --> 0:15:59.410 chopper chopping and what was it for you that you 0:15:59.450 --> 0:16:03.900 know is the thing that Lanterns didn't do in order 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:05.120 to not land the plane. 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:09.100 I'm gonna start with the little surprise thing. 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:11.310 Which is, no, I do agree. I did think some 0:16:11.330 --> 0:16:13.290 of the emotional stuff, I just want to say with Joelle. 0:16:13.570 --> 0:16:13.910 It hit. 0:16:13.970 --> 0:16:15.370 That's why my breakdown was it was. 0:16:15.390 --> 0:16:17.550 I mean, this is a good show. You're being very 0:16:17.570 --> 0:16:18.670 hard on a good show. 0:16:18.850 --> 0:16:19.430 I think it's. 0:16:19.350 --> 0:16:22.290 Important to talk about the finale because I do think 0:16:22.330 --> 0:16:24.150 a lot was hanging on it. I had spoken to 0:16:24.190 --> 0:16:26.480 a lot of people throughout the rollout of this show 0:16:26.890 --> 0:16:29.260 who had gotten one episode, who'd gotten two. We talked 0:16:29.300 --> 0:16:30.780 about how hard it was for us to get screeners. 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:33.420 And so many people were saying, it depends on the finale. 0:16:33.460 --> 0:16:36.640 It depends on the finale. I think that, was it 0:16:36.660 --> 0:16:40.040 a fine finale for a fine show? Yeah, but when 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.620 you dig into it and you look at the issues, 0:16:42.980 --> 0:16:45.000 the stuff for me where it's like, he goes home 0:16:45.090 --> 0:16:48.490 and hugs Bernadette. We know that the manhunter was Zoe. 0:16:48.710 --> 0:16:51.770 We know Kerry is a murderer who will murder anyone 0:16:51.810 --> 0:16:54.950 to protect her son. Those are your three main female characters. 0:16:54.990 --> 0:16:58.330 This is a show about- men and all the hysterical 0:16:58.390 --> 0:17:00.609 women in their lives who are doing bad stuff I 0:17:00.630 --> 0:17:02.359 don't know that to me when you start to dig 0:17:02.420 --> 0:17:05.320 into it on a minus tiny little bit of what 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:07.740 we used to write op-eds about every single week at 0:17:07.780 --> 0:17:11.040 vulture it does not really stand up in my opinion 0:17:11.100 --> 0:17:14.570 to what we're looking for but not every show can 0:17:14.590 --> 0:17:16.270 be for every person and I think the stuff it 0:17:16.310 --> 0:17:19.200 did well was good but I also like The John 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:21.480 stuff for me, I just want him to be his 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.080 own lantern. His whole life he was forced into doing 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:26.619 it and allegedly here he gets his own lantern and 0:17:26.660 --> 0:17:28.900 there is a freeing thing to that. But I also 0:17:28.940 --> 0:17:33.169 read a read where somebody said, oh, okay, so the 0:17:33.390 --> 0:17:36.790 one black green lantern has to steal his power source, 0:17:37.190 --> 0:17:40.169 have it corrupted with evil and not be an official 0:17:40.210 --> 0:17:43.109 green lantern. You know, like there are certain choices and 0:17:43.130 --> 0:17:45.389 ways you can read this where depending on how you 0:17:45.430 --> 0:17:46.770 feel about John's character. 0:17:46.970 --> 0:17:48.880 And the thing for me is, I don't really know 0:17:48.900 --> 0:17:49.439 where any of. 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:51.500 It's going because I think that's the saddest thing is 0:17:51.619 --> 0:17:54.800 I love John and I've really loved this character. But 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.200 after this, I'm like, is he going to become Parallax? 0:17:57.220 --> 0:17:58.810 You're going to make him kind of evil. 0:17:58.869 --> 0:18:01.110 That seems weird. Is he going to be in Superman 0:18:01.150 --> 0:18:02.290 very much? We don't know. 0:18:02.310 --> 0:18:05.129 I think that up in the airness of it, it 0:18:05.190 --> 0:18:09.230 wasn't concrete enough to make me care and feel like, fuck, yeah, 0:18:09.290 --> 0:18:10.310 like they landed that. 0:18:10.730 --> 0:18:11.969 And all the questions it. 0:18:12.090 --> 0:18:14.369 Leaves just make me feel like the show is lesser 0:18:14.609 --> 0:18:16.330 than before I saw the finale, basically. 0:18:17.010 --> 0:18:19.930 Yeah, I agree with all of that. Let's talk about 0:18:19.970 --> 0:18:25.580 that villain issue because it certainly seemed like the show 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:32.359 from almost like minute one was based around who killed 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:35.950 Hal and that's the bad guy. Turns out, actually, no. 0:18:38.190 --> 0:18:42.869 We need that person to raise the Manhunter so he 0:18:43.410 --> 0:18:47.460 won't be evil. and also we have a great deal 0:18:47.500 --> 0:18:51.720 of empathy for this person for what they escaped in Gotham, 0:18:51.780 --> 0:18:54.040 and therefore they are allowed to commit murder, and it's fine. 0:18:54.619 --> 0:18:57.040 And then, you know, in the middle, it was this 0:18:57.100 --> 0:19:03.510 mysterious Manhunter, but then that's complicated because of the kind 0:19:03.530 --> 0:19:06.470 of romance between John and the Manhunter, and then I found. 0:19:11.910 --> 0:19:18.090 I even found like the circumstances of John killing the Manhunter, 0:19:18.170 --> 0:19:22.110 killing Zoe to be like very confusing at the end. 0:19:22.530 --> 0:19:26.730 Like the conversation you kind of get at the end 0:19:27.470 --> 0:19:32.360 between like, um, that come, the feeling you get after 0:19:32.390 --> 0:19:34.940 the conversation that comes out of, uh, the conversation between 0:19:34.980 --> 0:19:38.320 Carrie and John is that Zoe somehow like wanted to 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:41.800 die in the same way that, um, Yeah, because Noah 0:19:41.820 --> 0:19:43.160 says you killed her for mercy. In the same way 0:19:43.180 --> 0:19:45.040 that Noah wanted to die, right? Give her the same 0:19:45.100 --> 0:19:48.689 mercy that you gave me, you know? And so, but 0:19:48.710 --> 0:19:52.530 that's never expressed. at any point and seems like it's 0:19:52.570 --> 0:19:56.390 just kind of tagged on. And so I'm left feeling 0:19:56.470 --> 0:19:59.190 much like Abu, like, wait, who's the fucking bad guy 0:19:59.210 --> 0:20:01.820 in this? Like, it almost feels like more, is it 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:05.580 Laura Linney who disappears off the map after a few episodes? 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:10.980 Is it Sinestro who... Seems like he's helping everybody out, 0:20:11.180 --> 0:20:14.840 even though he quite clearly is very ominous and is 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:17.970