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Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of

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Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapists advice column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, we'll be talking with a woman who has

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Speaker 1: a history of addictions that she is now in recovery for,

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Speaker 1: but she has recently developed a new addiction, and that

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Speaker 1: is to shopping.

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Speaker 3: I didn't realize that that's what was happening until I

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Speaker 3: was six thousand dollars in debt. I think that's what

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Speaker 3: makes me feel vulnerable, is to say this allowed.

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Speaker 2: First A quick note, therapist is for informational purposes only,

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Speaker 2: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it's not

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Speaker 2: a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always

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Speaker 2: seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or

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Speaker 2: other qualified health provider with any questions you may have

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Speaker 2: regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 2: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

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Speaker 2: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 2: and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have

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Speaker 2: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.

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Speaker 1: So hey Guy, Hi Laurie.

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Speaker 2: So it's your week to go through the mailbooks. What

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Speaker 2: have you found for us today?

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Speaker 1: Well, it was an interesting week in the mailbox because

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Speaker 1: we got so many great letters, and I actually chose

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Speaker 1: one that's very short, but on a topic that I

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Speaker 1: think is really important. And it goes like this, Dear therapists,

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Speaker 1: I am a licensed alcohol and drug counselor and recovery

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Speaker 1: for eight years. I find myself spending a lot of

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Speaker 1: money on things I do not need. It is starting

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Speaker 1: to get out of control and I've put myself in

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Speaker 1: unnecessary debt. What can I do? I believe it is

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Speaker 1: related to stress. I'd really appreciate your help. Hillary.

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Speaker 2: You know this is something that is much more common

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Speaker 2: than people realize. Up to five percent of people are

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Speaker 2: diagnosed with a compulsive buying disorder, and so overshopping is

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Speaker 2: something a lot of people do, not necessarily to the

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Speaker 2: point of it being a disorder, but it's something that

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Speaker 2: can be very distressing to their bank account, to their relationships,

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Speaker 2: and to their sense of self.

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Speaker 1: And in this case, she has a history of addiction,

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Speaker 1: so she knows what it's like to feel out of control.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's what she's writing to us about,

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Speaker 1: is this feeling of I don't feel like I have

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Speaker 1: control over this. And I think the other thing about

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Speaker 1: addiction is that usually, as she said, I think I'm

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Speaker 1: under a lot of stress, there's usually another problem and

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Speaker 1: then the addiction is what people use to cope with

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Speaker 1: the problem. And so we want to find out more

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Speaker 1: about what is going on in her life that is

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Speaker 1: causing her to either try to deflect, distract, numb out,

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Speaker 1: fill a hole. So let's go talk to her and

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Speaker 1: learn more.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back

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Speaker 2: after a quick break.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb and.

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Speaker 2: I'm Guy Winch and this is Deo Therapists.

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Speaker 1: So Hi Hillary, Hello, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: We read your letter. We'd love to hear a little

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Speaker 2: bit more about what's going on with the shopping and

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Speaker 2: the history of that. Can me tell us a little

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Speaker 2: bit about when this started.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure when it all started, but I know

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Speaker 3: that recently, in the last couple of years, it's escalated

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Speaker 3: and it's become a real problem in my life, which

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Speaker 3: is ironic because I am an alcohol and drug counselor

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Speaker 3: and I've been in sobriety for nine years, so I

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Speaker 3: understand when something interferes in your life, probably an addiction.

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Speaker 3: In the last couple of years, I've been working on

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Speaker 3: my master's degree in counseling, and for the first time

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Speaker 3: in my life, I experienced physical symptoms of anxiety, and

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Speaker 3: to alleviate those physical symptoms, it felt really good to

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Speaker 3: fill up my cart and buy something. And I didn't

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Speaker 3: realize that that's what was happening until I was six

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars in debt and I had to actually cancel

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Speaker 3: that credit card and get a personal loan through my

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Speaker 3: credit union, and I'm now paying that off but still spending.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about what that

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Speaker 1: looks like. How did it start, what did you start buying,

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Speaker 1: and how did it escalate to six thousand dollars.

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Speaker 3: I think it started in childhood. I can recall my

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Speaker 3: mother and my siblings when I I was like five

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Speaker 3: or six, and we would go out into the country

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Speaker 3: and find abandoned homes or farmhouses, and we would take

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Speaker 3: things from the farmhouse, and I think it stuck in

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Speaker 3: my head that this was okay, that as a child,

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Speaker 3: you can just take what you want. Now that turned

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Speaker 3: into for me, it turned into active addiction to alcohol

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Speaker 3: and drugs for many, many years, and during that time,

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Speaker 3: I would allow myself to steal things.

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Speaker 1: At what age did the drug and alcohol you start?

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Speaker 3: I actually started about the age of ten. I was

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Speaker 3: experiencing an extreme amount of shame from childhood, and when

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Speaker 3: I drank the alcohol at age ten, it was like

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Speaker 3: instant relief.

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Speaker 2: What was the shame about that you are feeling at

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Speaker 2: age ten so strongly.

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Speaker 3: I think what it came from was no connection. I

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Speaker 3: felt disconnected from the world, a single parent home, being

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Speaker 3: bullied in school. And when I was able to in

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Speaker 3: just that alcohol, it was like nirvana. It was the

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Speaker 3: best thing I had ever experienced.

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Speaker 1: Where did you get the alcohol and what was the

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Speaker 1: context in which you had your first drink.

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Speaker 3: I was in the basement of the house and somehow

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Speaker 3: my older brother had it and he gave it to me,

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Speaker 3: and it was a half frozen bottle of Boone's farm wine.

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Speaker 3: What I can remember is that it took me away

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Speaker 3: from feeling internal pain, so I no longer felt like

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Speaker 3: I didn't belong. It was like the sensation of everything's

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Speaker 3: going to be great.

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Speaker 2: So how quickly did it get into a habit?

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Speaker 3: Well, it continued for many, many years. I used whatever

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Speaker 3: and whenever I could throughout my school years. By my twenties,

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Speaker 3: I had developed an addiction to cocaine.

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Speaker 2: Alcohol is expensive. Where were you getting it? Were you

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Speaker 2: taking it from the home? Did your mom not realize

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Speaker 2: it was gone?

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Speaker 3: With friends? We would take alcohol out of the parents'

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Speaker 3: bottles and fill it with water. At that time, you

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Speaker 3: could purchase alcohol at age eighteen, so we'd get older

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Speaker 3: kids to buy it for us. Then it was marijuana

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Speaker 3: was very prevalent, and it was everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Did anybody notice that this was going on in your family?

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Speaker 1: Your mother or your brother, And did any of your

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Speaker 1: teachers notice in terms of that it affected your functioning

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Speaker 1: in school?

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Speaker 3: Well? I certainly wasn't alone there were hundreds of kids

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Speaker 3: like me that would use whenever they could. Oh, sure,

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Speaker 3: I think they did. I think for my mom, she

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Speaker 3: was more happy if we would drink or use in

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Speaker 3: the house rather than be out in the street. So

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Speaker 3: nothing was done.

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Speaker 1: When you say that your mom would rather have you

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Speaker 1: use in the house because she thought it was safer

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Speaker 1: than having you use on the street. Was there any

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Speaker 1: conversation about the fact that maybe you shouldn't be using.

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Speaker 3: No, was your mom also.

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Speaker 1: Drinking or using drugs.

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Speaker 3: She was a hard working single parent that raised three kids.

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Speaker 3: My brother didn't use. My sister was six years older

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Speaker 3: than I was, so there wasn't much connection there. And

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Speaker 3: it wasn't like we did this every single day as kids.

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Speaker 3: It was whatever we could get our hands on, so

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Speaker 3: that might be a month. The other thing that happened

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Speaker 3: to us, I had a cousin who had access to pills,

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Speaker 3: so he provided some kind of downers, and that happened

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Speaker 3: shortly after that first drink of alcohol. I had forgotten

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Speaker 3: about that, and so I was taking pills and alcohol

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Speaker 3: before anything else.

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Speaker 1: Was your mom aware of the pills and what was

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Speaker 1: happening with your cousin.

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Speaker 3: I don't think she was so there was alcohol in

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Speaker 3: the house, so I don't know how much she was drinking.

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Speaker 3: I know that she was gone a lot, but she

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Speaker 3: was trying to raise three kids on her own, and

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Speaker 3: during that time, being a divorce had a stigma attached.

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Speaker 3: She was shunned because she was the divorcee in town.

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Speaker 1: And then you were shunned as the child of a divorcee.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I found a way to get through and

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Speaker 3: make things happen, for instance, finding the kids that did

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Speaker 3: what I did and hanging around with them. I didn't understand,

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Speaker 3: of course, at that time that it was a way

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Speaker 3: of escape. I just as a child, I just knew

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Speaker 3: that getting high was cool.

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Speaker 1: It was cool because you had a group of friends,

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Speaker 1: or it was cool because it took away the pain

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Speaker 1: or both.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it's both, for sure. Having some connection with a

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Speaker 3: group was a really crucial part. And at the time

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Speaker 3: I think I was just really dying to belong to

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Speaker 3: a group of people, and I could find it in

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Speaker 3: this group of people.

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Speaker 1: As we're talking about disconnection, I wonder where was your dad.

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Speaker 1: You haven't mentioned him yet.

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Speaker 3: Oh, he wasn't part of the picture.

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Speaker 1: How old were you when your parents got divorced, and

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Speaker 1: what were the circumstances of the divorce.

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Speaker 3: I was like one years old. My father didn't want

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Speaker 3: anything to do with the kids, really with us, so

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Speaker 3: he left the home and got his own house in

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Speaker 3: the city. As far as I can remember as a child,

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Speaker 3: he came every other Sunday, and for some period of time,

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Speaker 3: I thought that's what everybody's father did. Until I got

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Speaker 3: to school.

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Speaker 2: Would he notice severa that you were drunk or high

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Speaker 2: or did you just not do it when there was

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Speaker 2: a visit from him?

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Speaker 3: Correct And if I was, I don't know that he'd care.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever develop a relationship with him as you

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Speaker 1: got older?

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Speaker 3: I tried At one point, I tried to sit down

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Speaker 3: as an adult. I asked him his life story, and

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Speaker 3: that was a period of sobriety for me, and he

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Speaker 3: basically told me his story but skipped over my mother

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Speaker 3: and the birth of us, and so I chose to

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Speaker 3: sever ties with him at that point.

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Speaker 2: She was saying, there was a period of sobriety in

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Speaker 2: that time. What led to that?

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Speaker 3: In my senior year of high school and a little

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Speaker 3: bit before that, I think I was seeking something, and

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Speaker 3: I think part of what I was seeking was a

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Speaker 3: father figure. I felt unfulfilled and I ended up smoking

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Speaker 3: a lot of marijuana. But I also involved myself in

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Speaker 3: church groups, so I was living a double life. In

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Speaker 3: this church group, I participated, and I would sing the

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Speaker 3: songs and I would become part of this religious ideology.

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Speaker 3: And then the other part of me would you know,

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Speaker 3: By that time, I was taking acid, eating mushrooms, which

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Speaker 3: are psychedelics, and doing this completely opposite thing. And I

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Speaker 3: felt very alone because I felt like I was the

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Speaker 3: only one living this double life. But in that while

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Speaker 3: I was going to church, I discovered a cultural exchange

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Speaker 3: program and I signed up. Most of that time was sober,

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Speaker 3: but it was an adventure, so I was constantly stimulated

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Speaker 3: with new information and it was really quite an experience.

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Speaker 3: And when I returned home once when I chose, in

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Speaker 3: my enlightened state of having been living in Europe, to

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Speaker 3: sit down with him and have this adult conversation.

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Speaker 1: When you spoke to your dad, did you ever say

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Speaker 1: why did you leave or why weren't you involved in

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Speaker 1: our childhood? I hear that you asked for his life story,

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Speaker 1: but did you ever ask him directly about the relationship

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Speaker 1: with you.

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Speaker 3: I don't think I did. Now that you say it

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Speaker 3: that way, he's deceased, and you know, the story actually

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Speaker 3: gets even more bizarre because my first attempt at sobriety,

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Speaker 3: my brother told me that he wasn't really my father,

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Speaker 3: that my stepfather was my father. I was thirty some

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Speaker 3: years old. It was the first I ever had ever

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Speaker 3: heard that, So that set me into a little bit

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Speaker 3: of a tailspin. And when I tried to verify this

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Speaker 3: information with my mother, she said she didn't know.

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Speaker 2: We haven't heard about the stepfather. So when did he

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Speaker 2: come into the picture.

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Speaker 3: He came into the picture around the age of twelve

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Speaker 3: or thirteen. He wasn't a nice person. He ended up

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Speaker 3: kicking my older sister out of the house for what reason.

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Speaker 3: I think they just didn't get along. She had a

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Speaker 3: very strong personality. I think she felt like my mother

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Speaker 3: chose him over her, so she became angry and chose

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Speaker 3: to leave at age sixteen.

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Speaker 2: Your stepdad was in your life for how long?

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Speaker 3: Probably five years. It's a little bit blurry, but if

255
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Speaker 3: an indeed he was the father, would have happened out

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Speaker 3: of wedlock, you know, way before.

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Speaker 2: And when your mom says she doesn't know, it's because

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Speaker 2: she truly doesn't know. It's possible that she had been

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Speaker 2: sleeping with him before you were born, but she just

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Speaker 2: truly doesn't know.

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Speaker 3: Correct, It's okay now, I mean they're both dead. I

262
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Speaker 3: struggled with it for a little while, but it really

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Speaker 3: doesn't matter. Now.

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Speaker 1: When you say it doesn't matter, can you say more

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Speaker 1: about that?

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Speaker 3: Sure?

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Speaker 1: I have.

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Speaker 3: Worked through the emotions that are normally attached to who

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Speaker 3: a father might be. I've also worked through like, if

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Speaker 3: I had any health issues, you know who that would be.

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Speaker 3: I've worked through things like I can't do a DNA

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Speaker 3: test to find out for sure, and through a twelve

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Speaker 3: step program. I've worked through resentment. I've worked through anger,

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Speaker 3: and there's some sadness, but I don't live in that.

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Speaker 3: So it's just the knowledge that one of these two

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Speaker 3: people were my biological father, and I didn't care for

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Speaker 3: much of either of them. So what difference does it make?

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Speaker 3: I make my own family tell us about that. Well.

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Speaker 3: I have some people close to me that I consider

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Speaker 3: to be family, and most of that has come from sobriety,

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Speaker 3: being a part of a group, being involved with people

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Speaker 3: who have suffered as I have, who put themselves through

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Speaker 3: horrible addictions and come out the other side. So that's

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Speaker 3: what I consider family.

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting here thinking about your feeling that it doesn't

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Speaker 1: really matter who your father was. And one of the

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Speaker 1: things that we see a lot with addiction is that

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Speaker 1: there are these secrets in the family. There's this toxicity

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Speaker 1: around a sea grip floating in the air that the

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00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,760
Speaker 1: child somehow perceives but doesn't know what it is. Something

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Speaker 1: just feels not right and it isn't even maybe in

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Speaker 1: their awareness, but there's also an inherent internal sense of

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Speaker 1: disconnection when you feel like there's something about this family

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Speaker 1: that's off, there's something in the air here. And so

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Speaker 1: as an adult, I understand that you've worked through a

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Speaker 1: lot of maybe resentment, betrayal, anxiety, anger, sadness, whatever you

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00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,880
Speaker 1: might have been feeling around it. But I just want

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Speaker 1: to put out there that maybe there's more to do there.

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Speaker 3: There could be. I mean, I have to admit there

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Speaker 3: could be.

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Speaker 1: Because your mother's still alive, right, Yeah, have you ever

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00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:47,880
Speaker 1: thought about that at all?

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Speaker 3: She's ninety two. She is actually an active alcoholic. She's

304
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Speaker 3: very frail, She's like ninety pounds. She hardly eats. So

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00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,200
Speaker 3: when I say that, getting to the bottom of knowing

306
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:10,600
Speaker 3: who my father actually is. It is not worth knowing

307
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Speaker 3: that in comparison to any pain that I would cause

308
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Speaker 3: her by trying to pry it out of her or something.

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Speaker 3: Does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So, how bad did things get before you became sober?

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Speaker 2: What was that turning point for you? At the bottom?

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Speaker 3: I began using ivy needles and I did it for

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00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:41,199
Speaker 3: fifteen years and no cocaine. Luckily I never had a

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Speaker 3: taste for opiates. I probably would be dead. I tried

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Speaker 3: to get sober several times where I would manage to

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00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,399
Speaker 3: get six months or a year. And the last time

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00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:59,520
Speaker 3: that I used it was twenty twelve and it was

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Speaker 3: with ivy needles and cocaine and I was at a

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Speaker 3: person's home in the city. It got to the point

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Speaker 3: where I was bankrupt spiritually, mentally, physically, financially. I tended

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Speaker 3: to go back to school at that time, though it

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Speaker 3: didn't work out because I did have a cocurring disorder.

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Speaker 3: I had depression anxiety, but I also had a significant

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Speaker 3: substance use disorder. And it is secretive people who are

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Speaker 3: in active use do have a tendency to minimize the

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Speaker 3: severity of their addictions, and I was really good at that,

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Speaker 3: so I knew how to cover my tracks, both literally

328
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Speaker 3: and figuratively. Because using needles, you know, I had collapsed veins.

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Speaker 3: I had started shooting and using the needles in different

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Speaker 3: places that wouldn't be visible. Well, anything to minimize the

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Speaker 3: severity of the addiction.

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Speaker 1: You were talking about how secretive this was. Were you

333
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,320
Speaker 1: doing this alone? And how are you getting the drugs.

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Speaker 3: I was stealing?

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Speaker 1: And what were you stealing.

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00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:22,359
Speaker 3: I would go into different stores, department stores, grocery stores,

337
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:28,040
Speaker 3: take things that I knew I could either pawn or

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00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 3: sell directly to people, or trade so that I could

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00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,080
Speaker 3: get the drugs that I needed. My mental health had deteriorated.

340
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Speaker 3: Of course, when you're in active use, the best antidepressants

341
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,440
Speaker 3: are not going to work. I got to a point

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00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:50,320
Speaker 3: where I was trading sex for drugs. I would beg

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Speaker 3: for alcohol. There was a particular bar that I went

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00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,600
Speaker 3: to all the time and scrape up enough to get

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Speaker 3: a drink and then try and find somebody with drugs.

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Speaker 2: There was something different about this last time around where

347
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:08,119
Speaker 2: you finally did get sober. But I'm curious about what

348
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,160
Speaker 2: was different about this rock button because usually there's several

349
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,960
Speaker 2: rock buttons that you have to get to before one

350
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Speaker 2: of them actually is.

351
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Speaker 3: I said I would never use needles, and then I did.

352
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Speaker 3: I would never sell myself on the street in order

353
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Speaker 3: to get drugs, and then I did, I would never

354
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 3: steal from a friend, and then I did. That's the

355
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,639
Speaker 3: power of the obsession and compulsion of addiction that you

356
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,359
Speaker 3: continue to do things that are completely against what you

357
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 3: think your morals are. I had dabbled in recovery, and

358
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,439
Speaker 3: so I had a taste of what it was like

359
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 3: to live without substances, and I watched other people living

360
00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 3: their life and laughing and be happy, and knowing that

361
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 3: if I could somehow get over this homp, I could

362
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Speaker 3: have that.

363
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,879
Speaker 2: I understand that the periods of sobriety were very short, right,

364
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 2: But were you able in moments to craft an image

365
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 2: of what true sobriety would look like for you? Were

366
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,680
Speaker 2: you able to imagine? Because you said, oh, I saw

367
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 2: people laugh and have fun and be happy, and I

368
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 2: thought I want that. That that was we were able

369
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 2: to really have a vision of what life could be

370
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,239
Speaker 2: like for you. But how did you see yourself? What

371
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 2: was that woman you were meant to be?

372
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Speaker 3: I saw her as educated, spiritual, connected to others, healthy

373
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:46,160
Speaker 3: both physically and mentally, somebody that was able to be

374
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 3: calm and be happy living life on life service. So

375
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 3: if adversity came my way, I was going to be

376
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 3: able to handle that. If I had to step up

377
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 3: and be accountable for my behavior, I was able to

378
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 3: do that.

379
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Speaker 2: And if we go through that checklist and look at

380
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 2: your current life, you're educated, obviously you care about others.

381
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 2: What are the items on that list that are not

382
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 2: as strong as they should be right now?

383
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:26,640
Speaker 3: I think intimate relationships. I see someone that lives about

384
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty miles away from where I am,

385
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 3: and I see him occasionally. I don't have real strong,

386
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 3: intimate close friends, and that's the area that I would

387
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 3: really like to improve. I think the rest of what

388
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 3: I discussed I have taken on and developed, including a

389
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 3: work ethic, over the last nine years.

390
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 2: So given that context, tell us a little bit about

391
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 2: the shopping how bad that gets when it happens.

392
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 3: In the last couple of years, I've recognized I have

393
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 3: an imposter syndrome. So I've developed a counselor position for

394
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,120
Speaker 3: drugs and alcohol. I work with clients every day, and

395
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 3: I started by going to a community college and finishing

396
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 3: a two year degree. Then I chose to follow a

397
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 3: local college in getting a four year degree in addictions counseling.

398
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 3: I then developed this master's degree and I'm currently working

399
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 3: towards co occurring counseling to work with both mental health

400
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 3: and substance use disorder. In the process of this, I

401
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 3: developed anxiety. I've realized that I've been struggling for the

402
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 3: last year and a half in getting school work done.

403
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 3: Part of this is COVID that everything has gone to

404
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 3: zoom or online, so I don't have interaction with professors,

405
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,959
Speaker 3: my cohort. It's all via soum. So I feel alone

406
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 3: a lot, and it has transformed into a shopping addiction.

407
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 3: There's no way I'm going to return to using drugs

408
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 3: or alcohol. However, that thinking is still there, so instead

409
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 3: of writing my paper, I would find myself going on

410
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,880
Speaker 3: to my favorite shopping site and I need to read

411
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 3: this difficult material and answer some discussion questions with my

412
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 3: cohort from my college, and I realized I was trying

413
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 3: to find some peace in material things. And that's when

414
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 3: I recently come to realize that it stemmed back from

415
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 3: the farmhouses, you know, fifty years ago, that idea of

416
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 3: having fun and taking something. So along with the impostor syndrome,

417
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 3: which is basically feeling like I don't deserve to be

418
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 3: where I'm at and I have the education, I have

419
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 3: the ability, I have really positive feedback for the work

420
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 3: that I do. But how can I be a counselor

421
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 3: you're just a drug addict?

422
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 1: Is this a secret right now? Are we the only

423
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 1: people who knows this about your shopping addiction?

424
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 4: Okay, the shopping part, yes, Okay, okay, because all right,

425
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 4: because when we talk about shame again, there's that shame

426
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 4: and you were talking about it with your earlier addiction

427
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 4: around the secrecy.

428
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: And the shame and the ways that people try to

429
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: hide this because of the shame.

430
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 3: Absolutely, the material items that I purchase at the time,

431
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 3: there's a release when I press by.

432
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 1: What happens when the package arrives? When like it? Do

433
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 1: you feel horrible or do you feel excited when when

434
00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 1: you see the package at your doorstep?

435
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: It used to be excitement. Now it's like another fucking package.

436
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 3: What's going on?

437
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 2: Before COVID? Would you go to meetings in person and

438
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 2: how often I.

439
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 3: Would typically go two to three times a week.

440
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 2: And then it was zoom for a while. I'm assuming

441
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 2: or still.

442
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I didn't participate much with that. I didn't

443
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 3: do any zoom meetings.

444
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 2: Because there's a rough overlap in time between COVID and

445
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 2: between when the shopping purchasing accelerated. And what we know

446
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 2: about a lot of addictions is that this issue of

447
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,719
Speaker 2: this connection is alerting behind them. And you said that

448
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: of the list of all the things I wanted to

449
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: be and fix in my life, that one I haven't

450
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 2: quite probably fixed is intimacy yet. But I think it's

451
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 2: connection more broadly, to be honest with you, And there

452
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: are things we called soft ties and strong ties. Soft

453
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 2: ties are more casual acquaintances, but when there's a lot

454
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: of them, when there's a lot of people that say

455
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 2: hello to you when you walk into a meeting or

456
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 2: when you go to the grocery store because they know

457
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,479
Speaker 2: you there, it can add up and make people feel

458
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 2: more connected. And when you don't go to meetings and

459
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 2: you stop that all together and you don't have a

460
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,959
Speaker 2: strong intimate bond with one other person you said you'd

461
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 2: meet only occasionally with this person who's however many miles away.

462
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 2: It can leave you feeling very disconnected because a lot

463
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: of those softer ties that kept you feeling connected, kept

464
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: you feeling a part of, go away, and then you

465
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 2: feel very much not a part of And that's when

466
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: some of the old behaviors started to come back. And

467
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 2: I'm wondering if you notice that.

468
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 3: Timing absolutely, and especially with explaining it that well. I

469
00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 3: think it accelerated over the last year. And also my

470
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 3: schoolwork has suffered. It's supposed to be done with my

471
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 3: master's by the end of next year or at this

472
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 3: time next year. The way it's looking, I'll have to

473
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 3: either withdraw or find another way because I had to

474
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 3: take incomplete so I developed the anxiety symptoms of the

475
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 3: physical symptoms within my chest.

476
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: I think that the paradox of getting sober is that

477
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: once you start to realize what is possible in your life.

478
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: First of all, there's a lot of grief for all

479
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: the lost years.

480
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yes, definitely, I have a lot of.

481
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: That, right And usually it starts in childhood because you

482
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: didn't have necessarily the kinds of connections and love that

483
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: you wanted in childhood. Even if your mother loved you.

484
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 3: You felt very alone, yep, And I didn't recognize it

485
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 3: as that, but that's what it was, right.

486
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: And then the lost years when you're using and you're

487
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: not connected in the world, you're in that world of

488
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: just I need the next fix. And so then when

489
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: you come out of it, when you're sober, you start

490
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: to realize how important connection is. And there's also a

491
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: fear of connection. So those two things happen at once

492
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: of I really want connection, this is really important, and

493
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: I'm not sure A I know how to do it,

494
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: or B that I deserve it.

495
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 3: Oh, definitely. The main part of that is this idea

496
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 3: that I don't deserve connection, or when I make a connection,

497
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 3: it was so scary to be connected with somebody.

498
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: There's one more thing that I'm thinking about, which is that,

499
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: in terms of the timing, you said that now you're

500
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: doing this program where you're studying addiction and its relationship

501
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: with other mood disorders like anxiety and depression, and I

502
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: wonder if that's bringing up anxiety in you, because sometimes

503
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: it's very hard to be studying something that you also

504
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: have a lot of personal experience with.

505
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 3: Interesting that you should say that because I never really

506
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 3: made the connection of that feeling of anxiety and the

507
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 3: way I know how to escape is shopping.

508
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 2: It's also possible that part of the imposter syndrome is

509
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 2: you recognizing even early on that this shopping it feels

510
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 2: a lot like using and I'm using it in the

511
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 2: same way. Part of you might be feeling, oh, and

512
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 2: I still have these behaviors going on. Now that's in

513
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 2: the shopping domain, and that might be what part of

514
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 2: the imposter syndrome it's also about.

515
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have to look at that. I think the

516
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 3: imposter syndrome idea came in my undergrad work. Each graduation

517
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 3: I had I physically became ill. So when I graduated

518
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 3: from college with my bachelor's degree, I got physically sick.

519
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 3: Emotionally I was a mess. I achieved something that I

520
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 3: had been striving for or fantasized about my whole life,

521
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 3: and when I got it, I want to do it

522
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 3: throw up. I became so sick.

523
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 2: You know. It's one of the things that happens in

524
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 2: long term addiction is you really can lose the ability

525
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 2: to trust yourself because you made so many deals with

526
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 2: yourself that you've broken thousands of them and then when

527
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: you achieve something, it feels like, Okay, now I can

528
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 2: trust myself. I've actually completed that thing, that fantasy that

529
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 2: I had have actually attained it. But that fear of oh,

530
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 2: it can be taken away because I can screw up again.

531
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: You know, I'm trying to trust myself, but I can

532
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 2: slip again. That fear of this life will be taken

533
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 2: away from me can operate for a very very long

534
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 2: time with addiction. So when you start to achieve finally

535
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 2: thirty five years of fears of oh, I'm going to

536
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 2: screw this up and mess this up, don't go away overnight.

537
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 2: And the more you have at stake, the greater the fear.

538
00:32:59,600 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 5: Is.

539
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 2: Now you actually have something to lose. And before sobriety

540
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 2: you really didn't have much to lose, and now you do,

541
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: and that can make the anxiety grow bigger.

542
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes sense because in active use, it's like

543
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 3: what is there to lose? It's just about the next score.

544
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 3: So now living a life of integrity and responsibility and

545
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 3: work ethic and making an income, saving money, have a

546
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 3: four to h one K, I've never had that before.

547
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 3: And then to admit to a shopping addiction.

548
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: I wanted to say one more thing about this idea

549
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: of you getting physically ill when you would accomplish something

550
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: like a graduation. The other addiction that people don't talk

551
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: about is that people get addicted to punishing themselves. People

552
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: get addicted to not having People get addicted to that

553
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: sense of things are not going to work out for me.

554
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: That becomes something that they hold very dear, even though

555
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: they don't want that to happen, And so all of

556
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: a sudden you have to let go of that idea.

557
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: It's a whole self concept of going from I'm someone

558
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 1: for whom nothing will work out to I'm someone who

559
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: can have agency in the world.

560
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 3: Indeed, there's comfort in the familiarity of discomfort.

561
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: There's this saying, especially in the field of psychology, that

562
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: research is mesearch, meaning that we usually are interested in

563
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: exploring something that touches us very closely personally. So somebody

564
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: who comes from a history of substance use will become

565
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: an addiction counselor. But what you're studying now, I think

566
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 1: is the most tender part of something that you're still

567
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: trying to resolve, which is the anxiety, the relational pieces.

568
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: And so I wonder if you're avoiding doing this work

569
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: in a way that you didn't avoid doing the other

570
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: work because of where you are in your process of

571
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: working through.

572
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 3: It, you know, there's probably some truth to that.

573
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 2: We were talking about this idea of connection and loneliness

574
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 2: and how those two things go with addiction. Very often

575
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 2: what happens with alcohol and substances is that, especially when

576
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 2: it's thirty five years of that, that's what draws the

577
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 2: people to one another. It's the actual glue that determines

578
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 2: who your people are and how close you are with

579
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 2: them because you're all doing the same thing substance wise.

580
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 2: And when that glue goes away because you become sober,

581
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:46,280
Speaker 2: you literally have to rediscover reinvent, Well, what's the glue

582
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 2: that I use now? How do I get close to

583
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 2: people now? And those skill sets that usually require very intentional,

584
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: active work to develop those muscles to connect and especially

585
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 2: in deeper ways with people. Do you have a sense

586
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: of whether you've developed enough of those muscles?

587
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 3: No, I haven't, and I have a sense of not

588
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 3: wanting to address that inability to create those relationships, to

589
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 3: create new glue. The one relationship that I have with

590
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 3: a guy, like I said, and he lives one hundred

591
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 3: and fifty miles away. We've been seeing each other on

592
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 3: and off for eleven years, and I don't have a

593
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 3: lot of interest in getting married or or moving in

594
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 3: with him, even I have no desire to do that.

595
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: Is that because of you don't feel that connection with

596
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: him or you don't want that with anybody?

597
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 3: I don't know for sure, because I've asked myself that

598
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 3: what's been popping in my head is you're too old.

599
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 3: You're too old, You're too old.

600
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 2: This keeps coming up. You're too old to get a

601
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 2: degree or a tool to have a relationship. I think

602
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 2: it's a bit of an excuse, to be honest with you.

603
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 2: I think you're using it as an excuse.

604
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: The person that you've been dating. His name is Shane. Okay,

605
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: So Shane, how did you meet eleven years ago? And

606
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 1: is he wanting more or how did the two of

607
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: you talk about what you're doing with each other?

608
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 3: Well, we met online on Craigslist and it was an

609
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 3: attempt for connection on my part back then, and it

610
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 3: turned out that we were very compatible and over the

611
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 3: years he has been supportive. So he has seen me

612
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 3: in active addiction and has seen me in recovery, and

613
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 3: I recently was making a choice to end the relationship

614
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 3: last year right when COVID hit. It was no connection

615
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 3: to COVID, it just happened to be at the same time.

616
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: Why did you want to end the relationship? And what

617
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 1: is he wanting in this relationship?

618
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,720
Speaker 3: He's wanting to get married. He is a Vietnam veteran.

619
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 3: He has some PTSD that he's never dealt with nor

620
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 3: wishes to talk about. And he wasn't willing to like

621
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 3: go to alan On or some other kind of help

622
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 3: for people who are families of addicted people. And so

623
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 3: I've tried. I tried to have him join me at meetings,

624
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 3: go to his own meetings, and he was unwilling to

625
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 3: do this. And at that time, he lived about twenty

626
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 3: miles away. And he then decided to get a house

627
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 3: in the northern part of the state and moved up there.

628
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 3: And it's like, fine, fuck you.

629
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: So you felt hurt that he didn't include you in

630
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: that decision.

631
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,280
Speaker 3: Well, I think I did. The fact that he moved

632
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 3: so far away. Recently, however, I've been talking with him again,

633
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 3: and part of that is loneliness.

634
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: When he moved away, did he ever say to you,

635
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,919
Speaker 1: you know, I moved away because I've been wanting more

636
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,280
Speaker 1: from this relationship for a long time and I felt

637
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: hopeless that I would ever get it.

638
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 3: If he could say that, that would be awesome. He

639
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 3: doesn't have the capability of saying that.

640
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: What prevented you during this time if you felt like

641
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 1: this wasn't the right relationship from seeking out someone you

642
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: might be more compatible with.

643
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 3: I wanted to focus on school work.

644
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 5: Again, Hillary, we know you have to focus on your

645
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 5: school work, but you know people can be in school

646
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 5: and also have clothes and intimate relationships. So we really

647
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 5: hope you'll continue to explore this question of intimacy. Maybe

648
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 5: just get curious about the reasons you're not pursuing it

649
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 5: and challenge yourself on those if you can. But look,

650
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 5: you told us you have to run to a group.

651
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 5: So one last quick question before we get to the advice.

652
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 5: You know there are groups for shopping addiction, and since

653
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 5: you're already in the twelve step system, have you considered

654
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 5: joining one of them?

655
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 3: I have considered it, but I haven't acted on it.

656
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 3: So I looked it up. I looked it up online

657
00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 3: shoppers Anonymous, and I think I'm going to because the

658
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 3: night before I knew I was supposed to be meeting

659
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 3: with you, I'm online shopping.

660
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 2: So Hillary, we have some advice for you. The first

661
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 2: thing we'd like you to do is to see if

662
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 2: you can cancel your credit cards and use only Apple

663
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 2: Pay or Samsung Pay or something that doesn't require a

664
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 2: credit card, so that it limits you in how much

665
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,439
Speaker 2: you can shop online. There's a huge convenience factor here

666
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 2: that's making it really difficult to not do because it's

667
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 2: truly and everyone's trying to make this easier and one

668
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 2: click away. It's not so good for shopping adicts to

669
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 2: have one click away. So if you can put some

670
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 2: speed bumps in there that you would have to do

671
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 2: it in person, preferably with cash, we think that would help. Okay,

672
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 2: the next thing is you spoke about these struggles with

673
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 2: grad school that you're having trouble saying on top of

674
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:58,399
Speaker 2: stuff getting assignments done.

675
00:40:58,719 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 3: Correct.

676
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 2: Now, we are very clear that this is not any

677
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 2: problem to do with your intellectual ability or your commitment

678
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 2: to this subject matter and commitment to this career path.

679
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 2: There's something psychological there.

680
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 3: I agree.

681
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 2: Often what happens is that when you have worked so

682
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 2: hard for so long to turn your life around, and

683
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: you're standing there at the end of a marathon, before

684
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 2: the finish line. It can be very scaried across it

685
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 2: because it's the promised land, and it can feel very,

686
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 2: very scary. And what we'd like you to do is

687
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 2: a visualization exercise. Sit in a comfortable place, close your eyes,

688
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 2: and imagine what your life would be like in a

689
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 2: year or two once you've crossed that finish line, once

690
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 2: you've finished your degree and graduated and got your hours

691
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 2: in and taking care of all the other issues that

692
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 2: you have to take care of, and now you finally

693
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 2: have this new life. You'd like you to really try

694
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 2: and visualize what that looks like, because when you do that,

695
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 2: you'll see the feelings that come up, and some of

696
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 2: them might be excitement, but some of them might be

697
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 2: discomfort or anxiety because it's a very foreign land still,

698
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 2: yes it is, and would like you to get familiar

699
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 2: with that land. And one way to do that is

700
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 2: my visualizing, and we want you to do that as

701
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 2: many times as you need until you can go to

702
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 2: that land and feel comfortable there.

703
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 3: That's a great idea.

704
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: And related to that, we were thinking about this idea

705
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 1: of I don't deserve to have anything good because of

706
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: what I've done and how that really sits inside of you.

707
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 3: Yes, there's a.

708
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 1: Word cherophobia, which means fear of joy. Chero meaning joy phobia,

709
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 1: fear you never really got to have a childhood because

710
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: you turned to alcohol and drugs to cope with your pain,

711
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: and you didn't get to have that joy that's un

712
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: edited that a lot of children experience and then they

713
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: can bring into adulthood with them. So we'd like you

714
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: to reclaim this aspect of yourself and do something fun

715
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 1: that If you think about going back to ten years old,

716
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 1: what would your ten year old self have wanted to

717
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: do for fun? So this is before the addiction started.

718
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: What class or hobby or activity would the young you

719
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 1: be excited about? And can you extrapolate from that and

720
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: think about what you, as an adult right now would

721
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: find enjoyable.

722
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 3: That's a great idea. I would have to really sit

723
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:45,240
Speaker 3: and think about that and figure out what she would.

724
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: Want, right because you didn't really have the opportunity to

725
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 1: sit and think about what she would want because you

726
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: were really trying to manage your pain at that time.

727
00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 1: But now you are right on the precipice of freedom,

728
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 1: and that's part of this block because you're kind of like,

729
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do with this freedom. I

730
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 1: don't know what to do with joy. So part of

731
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: it is the visualization and part of it is being

732
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: able to say, what is this other side of me

733
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 1: that I can reclaim? And as you're making the list,

734
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 1: notice what feelings come up. How does it feel to you?

735
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 1: Do you get excited, do you get scared? And try

736
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 1: to hold on to the excitement part. See what it

737
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 1: feels like this week to embark on that process.

738
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 3: That's interesting because I've been putting off reading for pleasure

739
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 3: for years because in my mind it was I have

740
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 3: to focus on text books. So I have this stack

741
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 3: of books I want to read.

742
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 2: The next thing is that we would like you to

743
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 2: find a twilsted group for shopping addiction, because you have

744
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 2: some shame around the fact that here I am, I'm

745
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: an addiction counselor and here I am falling into a

746
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 2: different kind perhaps of addiction. And why do you want

747
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 2: you to go to a group? Because a as you know,

748
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 2: talking about these things is a great way to take

749
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 2: ownership and to undo feelings of shame. But we also

750
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 2: want you to keep in mind that the fact that

751
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 2: you're an addiction counselor does not mean that you are

752
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 2: not vulnerable to addictions. What it does mean is that

753
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 2: when you catch yourself, you have a major head start

754
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 2: because you know so much because you deal with it.

755
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 2: So I want you to think of this as, oh,

756
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 2: I have a head start as opposed to I've fallen behind.

757
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 3: Great, that makes so much sense to me. What I'm hearing,

758
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 3: also you say, is how I choose to think about

759
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 3: something that is going to matter on how I deal

760
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 3: with it.

761
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: Yes, that's right, And we have two more things for you.

762
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 1: We were thinking about how you were saying you felt

763
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 1: too old to date, and what we think is that

764
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: you weren't ready to date earlier because of what you

765
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 1: were going through and because of all of the changes

766
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: that you've made in your life, you're finally now old

767
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: enough to date. But adult dating means doing the apps,

768
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: the dating sites, not Craigslist, and not hookup sites. So

769
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: we want you to get on some of these dating

770
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 1: apps and dating sites that are for people who are

771
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 1: looking for a relationship and to really start from learning

772
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:23,879
Speaker 1: about yourself in relationship.

773
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 3: I don't know that that's something I want to seek

774
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 3: out right now, but I understand what you're saying, and

775
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,399
Speaker 3: I do think that people my age and older are

776
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 3: more interested in relationships than they are in a hookup.

777
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,240
Speaker 1: Right And when you say you don't want to pursue

778
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 1: it right now, you don't have to take any of

779
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 1: this advice. But I imagine that there's some fear there.

780
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 1: And we're saying is we see you from a very

781
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 1: different perspective than you see yourself. There's a part here

782
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: of if I reveal myself to somebody, I'm not going

783
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 1: to be lovable.

784
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 2: One last thing, and this will continue of what Laurie

785
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 2: just said. We do think that you don't yet see

786
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 2: yourself as we see you, in the sense of how

787
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:17,320
Speaker 2: remarkable your accomplishments are, given where you came from, given

788
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 2: how long you were in that world, you have done

789
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 2: such an astonishing job of turning things around that, truly

790
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:30,320
Speaker 2: we are so impressed by how much you've done. You

791
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 2: would like you to every day spend a moment going

792
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 2: back to a dark moment, a difficult moment, and talking

793
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 2: to your past self and saying, and look at where

794
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 2: I am today. If I could travel back in time

795
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 2: and appear to myself in that moment with everything I

796
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 2: was feeling, with everything that was going on, and show

797
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 2: myself what I was able to pull off, that might

798
00:47:56,120 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 2: bring you more in touch with how ridiculously impressive the

799
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 2: turnaround is that you've been able to pull off.

800
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 3: Well, that makes sense, and I certainly have a lot

801
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 3: of moments to choose from.

802
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,800
Speaker 1: Right It's almost like you're being visited from your future self.

803
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 1: So if you can go back to those moments and

804
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: then here you are in the future right now. And

805
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 1: if you could have known back then, if your future

806
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 1: self could have visited you and said, look where I am,

807
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 1: would you ever have believed it?

808
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 3: Absolutely not.

809
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: So what we think you haven't really absorbed that yet though,

810
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: and we want you to make sure that you're focusing

811
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:38,399
Speaker 1: on this part of what you did and visiting your

812
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 1: past self and saying, wow, you know what this is.

813
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: How things are turning out and it is amazing.

814
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 2: So we really look forward to hearing how this went

815
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,760
Speaker 2: for you. Thank you so much for taking the time.

816
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

817
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 2: One thing I noticed when we were giving Hillary advice

818
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 2: is that she totally got what we were saying as

819
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 2: we were saying it, and not only she got here's

820
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 2: the assignment. She got. Oh, and this is why I

821
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 2: think that would be important, or I get why you're

822
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 2: telling me to do this. So I'm extremely helpful that

823
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 2: with that level of sophistication she'll really be able to

824
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,320
Speaker 2: follow through as much as possible with these things.

825
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: And I really agree that sometimes when people are in

826
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 1: this profession, they feel like I should know better, But

827
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 1: in fact she does have that head start, and I

828
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,839
Speaker 1: think that's really going to help her when she tries

829
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: to do the assignment.

830
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 2: This week, you're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be

831
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 2: back after a quick break. So we heard from Hillary

832
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 2: and we gave her a lot of home so I

833
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 2: am curious to see how much of it she was

834
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 2: able to get through.

835
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 3: Hi, this is Hillary. I wanted to give you a

836
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 3: little update the six items you listed. The first one

837
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 3: was canceled cards. I haven't done that yet, but I

838
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 3: did pay off a card and I have intention to

839
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 3: get rid of those. The second thing was to visualize

840
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 3: myself graduated or one to two years after and what

841
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 3: kind of feelings that invoked. I've actually found it relaxing

842
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 3: and happy. I didn't really feel the fear and anxiety.

843
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 3: The third thing was I don't deserve to have anything

844
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 3: good and joy and to go back to that ten

845
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:51,720
Speaker 3: year old girl. So I made a list. The first

846
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 3: thing is a metal detecting. I've always wanted to do that,

847
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 3: so I want to get myself, you know, a reasonably

848
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:02,319
Speaker 3: priced metal detector and go buy the shores of some

849
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 3: lakes or find some meteorites, do some research. The second

850
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 3: thing is water skiing. Third thing is roller skating. I

851
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 3: love to roller skate. I haven't done it in years.

852
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 3: I love reading science fiction, so I've read dozens of

853
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 3: books and I have a lot waiting for me. As

854
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 3: far as signing up for a class, it would be

855
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 3: for stargazing. My local community they have community classes and

856
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 3: they have one on stargazing. The next thing is getting

857
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 3: a motorcycle that would fit me. I still have my

858
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 3: motorcycle license, so I'd like to get a motorcycle A

859
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 3: fifty five and older. Softball league is another thing I'm considering.

860
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 3: And then finally, of course playing the drums. I always

861
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 3: wanted to do that. The fourth thing you talked about

862
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:03,399
Speaker 3: was the shopping addictions. I signed up for Debtor's Anonymous

863
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 3: and Overspenders Anonymous on Facebook. I'm members of both groups now.

864
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:12,879
Speaker 3: I did write one post, but I'm going to look

865
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 3: into local area face to face meetings. The fifth thing

866
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 3: was dating, something that I'm not really interested in. However,

867
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 3: I did fill out a form or take a personality

868
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,839
Speaker 3: test for a group called Silver Singles, so we'll see

869
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 3: what happens there. And then finally, the sixth thing is

870
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 3: talking to my past self, finding a dark moment, which

871
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 3: there are lots and lots, and I actually did that

872
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 3: first thing after I spoke with you. It was much

873
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 3: harder than I thought, but I'm going to continue to

874
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 3: do that because I think it will be healing. And then, finally,

875
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 3: thank you so much for this opportunity. It was really

876
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 3: more than I expected, and taking the time to listen

877
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 3: to me, and I hope I can help somebody else

878
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 3: who needs recovery it works and you can make your

879
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 3: life better. Thank you.

880
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 2: I was smiling so broadly when she was mentioning the

881
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 2: list of things she might want to do because they

882
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 2: are so different and they're so interesting. There's the metal

883
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,720
Speaker 2: detector stuff, and then the water skiing and roller skating

884
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 2: and sci fi and take a stargazing class, and the

885
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 2: motorcycle and the soft body. It just was one thing

886
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 2: after another. So this is a woman who has so

887
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 2: many varied interests and such a rich inner life that

888
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 2: it would be amazing to see her really connect and

889
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 2: start to do some of these things. It was so

890
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 2: great to hear.

891
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: You, And I think what it shows is that we

892
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: don't actually lose that childhood self, that that was still

893
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,800
Speaker 1: in there. It was just repressed, it was buried, and

894
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 1: we opened the door by simply asking a question, what

895
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 1: would you do if you could let yourself dream, if

896
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 1: you could be that child again? What could you do?

897
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: And it was so easy for her to do. I'm

898
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 1: sure if she sat down even longer, she'd probably come

899
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,720
Speaker 1: up with more. She has such a rich inner life.

900
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was amazing and it was so wonderful to

901
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 2: hear because she didn't lose that over the years. You know,

902
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 2: that's still there and it's been there all along, and

903
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:29,399
Speaker 2: now she gets to actually do something with it, which

904
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 2: I'm so excited for her.

905
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes we need permission, We need permission

906
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 1: to be able to say I get to have fun,

907
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 1: I get to have joy in my life.

908
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 2: Which brings me to some of the stuff that she

909
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 2: didn't quite do. For example, the dating that she wasn't

910
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 2: quite ready for necessarily. However, she did sign up respond

911
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 2: to a personality thing for a service. But I do

912
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:54,439
Speaker 2: hope that she gets to dating. But I certainly see

913
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 2: that there's a lot of other pieces of her social

914
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,719
Speaker 2: and personal life, and that she can work in the

915
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 2: meantime that also, I think would be very meaningful.

916
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: There were two areas where she was reluctant. One was

917
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: the dating, and then with the credit cards. She paid

918
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:14,320
Speaker 1: off a credit card, but there was the intention to

919
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 1: cancel the credit cards, but she didn't do that. And

920
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: so whenever there's that I intend to do this, but

921
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 1: you don't actually do it, it might mean that she's just

922
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 1: not quite ready to cut off the supply yet.

923
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 2: On the one hand, but what comforts me in this

924
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,279
Speaker 2: very specific case is that she signed up for those

925
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 2: Facebook groups for death is Anonymous and Overspenders anonymous, and

926
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 2: is planning to go to in person meetings, which will

927
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 2: absolutely then help with the accountability and probably nudge her

928
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 2: to cancel the credit cards. But by paying off one

929
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,439
Speaker 2: of the credit cards by joining those other groups and

930
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 2: having accountability. She said she even made one post on

931
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 2: the Facebook group and hopefully getting to meetings very soon.

932
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,399
Speaker 2: I really hope they'll be follow up there. But we

933
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 2: always think a therapist that when somebody has any kind

934
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 2: of addiction issue, that it's not just about deal with

935
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 2: the addiction, but it's about fill the voids in your

936
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 2: life that might be there. And so I'm really hopeful

937
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 2: that all this works together for her. By doing all

938
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:20,320
Speaker 2: those things, it will help support her in backing away

939
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,279
Speaker 2: from this new kind of dependency that she developed. In

940
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:23,839
Speaker 2: terms of the.

941
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 1: Show being yeah, and I do hope that she goes

942
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:28,800
Speaker 1: in person because we know that again with addiction, connection

943
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,840
Speaker 1: is so important. Having a support system is so important,

944
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:34,919
Speaker 1: and the in person experience is going to be very

945
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 1: different for her than the online experience. I think both

946
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:41,319
Speaker 1: are useful in different ways. And I also was really

947
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:44,760
Speaker 1: glad to hear that she is able to do hard things.

948
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 1: She said that talking to her past self was very hard,

949
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 1: and yet she's optimistic that it's going to be healing

950
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:55,880
Speaker 1: for her. So even though it's something that may create

951
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:59,279
Speaker 1: some discomfort in her, she's more than willing to do it,

952
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:00,800
Speaker 1: and that is a great sign.

953
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 2: And I have a suggestion for Hillary if she's listening,

954
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:06,319
Speaker 2: and for other listeners if they're thinking of doing this

955
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,840
Speaker 2: kind of exercise. If you start and you find that

956
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 2: it's triggering anxiety, to go back to specific very difficult moments,

957
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 2: then ease in. Start with less difficult moments, start there

958
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 2: and build your way up. You don't have to start

959
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 2: with the bleakest, darkest, the most difficult, because you don't

960
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 2: want to retrigger past trauma. It's fine to work your

961
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 2: way up to that, but to start with any low

962
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 2: moment and then insert that visitor from the future that's

963
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 2: telling that past version of yourself that I really turn

964
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 2: things around.

965
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: Next week, we'll be bringing you a special live episode

966
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: of Dear Therapists, where we'll share how we do these

967
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist sessions every week and what we're really thinking

968
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 1: when we're trying to help all of you through the

969
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 1: issues you bring us.

970
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 2: I literally say to myself in my head, I'm going

971
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 2: to do a Lori here, and then I do a

972
00:57:57,920 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 2: thing that I think Laurie would do.

973
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,040
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974
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,720
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975
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:09,320
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976
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:11,560
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977
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:15,080
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978
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:17,640
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979
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 2: they go smooth. Email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia

980
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 2: dot com.

981
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

982
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:31,200
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983
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:34,800
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984
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric. We

985
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 1: can't wait to see you at next week's session.

986
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:43,600
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