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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will

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Speaker 2: love just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapists advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 3: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 3: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 3: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, we'll be talking with a woman who has

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Speaker 1: a history of addictions that she is now in recovery for,

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Speaker 1: but she has recently developed a new addiction, and that

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Speaker 1: is to shopping.

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Speaker 4: I didn't realize that what was happening until I was

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Speaker 4: six thousand dollars in debt. I think that's what makes

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Speaker 4: me feel vulnerable, is to say this a loud.

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Speaker 3: First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only,

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Speaker 3: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it's not

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Speaker 3: a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always

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Speaker 3: seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or

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Speaker 3: other qualified health provider with any questions you may have

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Speaker 3: regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 3: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

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Speaker 3: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 3: and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have

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Speaker 3: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.

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Speaker 1: So hey Guy, Hi Laurie.

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Speaker 3: So it's your week to go through the mailbooks. What

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Speaker 3: have you found for us today?

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Speaker 1: Well, it was an interesting week in the mailbox because

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Speaker 1: we got so many great letters, and I actually chose

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Speaker 1: one that's very short, but on a topic that I

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Speaker 1: think is really important. And it goes like this, Dear therapists,

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Speaker 1: I am a licensed alcohol and drug counselor and recovery

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Speaker 1: for eight years. I find myself spending a lot of

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Speaker 1: money on things I do not need. It is starting

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Speaker 1: to get out of control and I've put myself an

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Speaker 1: unnecessary debt. What can I do? I believe it is

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Speaker 1: related to stress. I'd really appreciate your help. Hillary.

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Speaker 3: You know this is something that is much more common

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Speaker 3: than people realize. Up to five percent of people are

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Speaker 3: diagnosed with a compulsive buying disorder, and so overshopping is

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Speaker 3: something a lot of people do, not necessarily to the

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Speaker 3: point of it being a disorder, but it's something that

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Speaker 3: can be very distressing to their bank account, to their relationships,

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Speaker 3: and to their sense of self.

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Speaker 1: And in this case, she has a history of addiction,

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Speaker 1: so she knows what it's like to feel out of control.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's what she's writing to us about,

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Speaker 1: as this feeling of I don't feel like I have

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Speaker 1: control over this. And I think the other thing about

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Speaker 1: addiction is that usually, as she said, I think I'm

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Speaker 1: under a lot of stress, there's usually another problem and

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Speaker 1: then the addiction is what people use to cope with

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Speaker 1: the problem. And so we want to find out more

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Speaker 1: about what is going on in her life that is

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Speaker 1: causing her to either try to deflect, distract, and them

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Speaker 1: out fill a hole. So let's go talk to her

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Speaker 1: and learn more.

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Speaker 3: You're listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back

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Speaker 3: after a quick break.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb and.

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Speaker 3: I'm Guy Winch, and this is Deo therapists.

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Speaker 1: So, Hi Hillary, Hello, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 4: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: We read your letter. We'd love to hear a little

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Speaker 3: bit more about what's going on with the shopping and

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Speaker 3: the history of that. Can you tell us a little

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Speaker 3: bit about when this started.

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure when it all started, but I know

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Speaker 4: that recently, in the last couple of years, it's escalated

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Speaker 4: and it's become a real problem in my life, which

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Speaker 4: is ironic because I am an alcohol and drug counselor.

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Speaker 4: I've been in sobriety for nine years, so I understand

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Speaker 4: when something interferes in your life, it's probably an addiction.

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Speaker 4: In the last couple of years, I've been working on

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Speaker 4: my master's degree in counseling, and for the first time

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Speaker 4: in my life, I experienced physical symptoms of anxiety, and

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Speaker 4: to alleviate those physical symptoms, it felt really good to

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Speaker 4: fill up my cart and buy something. And I didn't

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Speaker 4: realize that that's what was happening until I was six

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Speaker 4: thousand dollars in debt and I had to actually cancel

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Speaker 4: that credit card and get a personal loan through my

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Speaker 4: credit union. And I'm now paying that off, but still spending.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about what that

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Speaker 1: looks like. How did it start, what did you start buying?

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Speaker 1: And how did it escalate to six thousand.

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Speaker 4: I think it started in childhood. I can recall my

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Speaker 4: mother and my siblings when I was like five or six,

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Speaker 4: and we would go out into the country and find

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Speaker 4: abandoned homes or farmhouses, and we would take things from

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Speaker 4: the farmhouse, and I think it stuck in my head

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Speaker 4: that this was okay, that as a child, you can

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Speaker 4: just take what you want. Now that turned into for me,

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Speaker 4: it turned into active addiction to alcohol and drugs for many,

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Speaker 4: many years, and during that time, I would allow myself

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Speaker 4: to steal things.

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Speaker 1: At what age did the drug and alcohol you start?

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Speaker 4: I actually started about the age of ten. I was

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Speaker 4: experiencing an extreme amount of shame from childhood, and when

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Speaker 4: I drank the alcohol at age ten, it was like instant.

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Speaker 3: Really, what was the shame about that you are feeling

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Speaker 3: at age ten so strongly.

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Speaker 4: I think what it came from was no connection. I

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Speaker 4: felt disconnected from the world, a single parent home, being

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Speaker 4: bullied in school, and when I was able to in

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Speaker 4: just that alcohol, it was like nirvana. It was the

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Speaker 4: best thing I had ever experienced.

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Speaker 1: Where did you get the alcohol and what was the

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Speaker 1: context in which you had your first drink.

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Speaker 4: I was in the basement of the house and somehow

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Speaker 4: my older brother had it and he gave it to me,

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Speaker 4: and it was a half frozen bottle of Boone's Farm wine.

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Speaker 4: What I can remember is that it took me away

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Speaker 4: from feeling internal pain, so I no longer felt like

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Speaker 4: I didn't belong. It was like the sensation of everything's

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Speaker 4: going to be great.

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Speaker 3: So how quickly did it get into a habit?

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Speaker 4: Well, it continued for many, many years. I used whatever

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Speaker 4: and whenever I could throughout my school years. By my twenties,

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Speaker 4: I had developed an addiction to cocaine.

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Speaker 3: Alcohol is expensive. Where were you getting it? Were you

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Speaker 3: taking it from the home? Did your mom not realize

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Speaker 3: it was gone?

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Speaker 4: With friends? We would take alcohol out of the parents'

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Speaker 4: bottles and fill it with water. At that time, you

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Speaker 4: could purchase alcohol at age eighteen, so we'd get older

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Speaker 4: kids to buy it for us. Then it was marijuana

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Speaker 4: was very prevalent, and it was everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Did anybody notice that this was going on in your family?

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Speaker 1: Your mother or your brother, and did any of your

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Speaker 1: teachers notice? In terms of that it affected your functioning

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Speaker 1: in school.

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Speaker 4: Well, I certainly wasn't alone. There were hundreds of kids

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Speaker 4: like me that would use whenever they could. Oh, sure,

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Speaker 4: I think they did. I think for my mom, she

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Speaker 4: was more happy if we would drink or use in

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Speaker 4: the house rather than be out in the street. So

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Speaker 4: nothing was done.

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Speaker 1: When you say that your mom would rather have you

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Speaker 1: use in the house because she thought it was safer

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Speaker 1: than having you use on the street. Was there any

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Speaker 1: conversation about the fact that maybe you shouldn't be using. No,

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Speaker 1: was your mom also drinking or using drugs.

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Speaker 4: She was a hard working single parent that raised three kids.

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Speaker 4: My brother didn't use. My sister was six years older

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Speaker 4: than I was, so there wasn't much connection there. And

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Speaker 4: it wasn't like we did this every single day as kids.

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Speaker 4: It was whatever we could get her hands on, so

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Speaker 4: that might be a month. The other thing that happened

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Speaker 4: to us, I had a cousin who had access to pills,

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Speaker 4: so he provided some kind of downers, and that happened

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Speaker 4: shortly after that first drink of alcohol. I had forgotten

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Speaker 4: about that, and so I was taking pills and alcohol

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Speaker 4: before anything else.

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Speaker 1: Was your mom aware of the pills and what was

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Speaker 1: happening with your cousin.

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Speaker 4: I don't think she was. So there was alcohol in

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Speaker 4: the house, so I don't know how much she was drinking.

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Speaker 4: I know that she was gone a lot, but she

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Speaker 4: was trying to raise three kids on her own, and

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Speaker 4: during that time, being a divorcee had a stigma attached.

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Speaker 4: She was shunned because she was the divorcee in town.

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Speaker 1: And then you were shunned as the child of a divorcee.

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Speaker 3: Yees.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So I found a way to get through and

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Speaker 4: make things happen, for instance, finding the kids that did

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Speaker 4: what I did and hanging around with them. I didn't understand,

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Speaker 4: of course, at that time that it was a way

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Speaker 4: of escape. I just as a child, I just knew

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Speaker 4: that getting high was cool.

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Speaker 1: It was cool because you had a group of friends,

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Speaker 1: or it was cool because it took away the pain

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Speaker 1: or both.

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Speaker 4: Oh, it's both for sure. Having some connection with a

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Speaker 4: group was a really crucial part. And at the time

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Speaker 4: I think I was just really dying to belong to

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Speaker 4: a group of people, and I could find it in

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Speaker 4: this group of people.

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Speaker 1: As we're talking about disconnection, I wonder where was your dad.

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Speaker 1: You haven't mentioned him yet.

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Speaker 4: Oh he wasn't part of the picture.

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Speaker 1: How old were you when your parents got divorced and

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Speaker 1: what were the circumstances the divorce.

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Speaker 4: I was like one years old. My father didn't want

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Speaker 4: anything to do with the kids, really with us, so

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Speaker 4: he left the home and got his own house in

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Speaker 4: the city. As far as I can remember as a child,

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Speaker 4: he came every other Sunday, and for some period of time,

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Speaker 4: I thought that's what everybody's father did until I got

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Speaker 4: to school.

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Speaker 3: Would he notice, Sebah that you were drunk or high

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Speaker 3: or did you just not do it when there was

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Speaker 3: a visit from him?

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Speaker 4: Correct? And if I was, I don't know that he'd care.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever develop a relationship with him as you

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Speaker 1: got older?

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Speaker 4: I tried At one point, I tried to sit down

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Speaker 4: as an adult. I asked him his life story, and

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Speaker 4: that was a period of sobriety for me, and he

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Speaker 4: basically told me his story, but skipped over my mother

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Speaker 4: and the birth of us, and so I chose to

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Speaker 4: sever ties with him at that point.

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Speaker 3: So she was saying there was a period of sobriety

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Speaker 3: in that time. What led to that?

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Speaker 4: In my senior year of high school and a little

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Speaker 4: bit before that, I think I was seeking something, and

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Speaker 4: I think part of what I was seeking was a

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Speaker 4: father figure. I felt unfulfilled, and I ended up smoking

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Speaker 4: a lot of marijuana. But I also involved myself in

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Speaker 4: church groups, so I was living a double life. In

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Speaker 4: this church group, I participated and I would sing the

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Speaker 4: songs and I would become part of this religious ideology.

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Speaker 4: And then the other part of me would you know.

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Speaker 4: By that time, I was taking acid, eating mushrooms which

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Speaker 4: are psychedelics, and doing this completely opposite thing. And I

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Speaker 4: felt very alone because I felt like I was the

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Speaker 4: only one living this double life. But in that while

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Speaker 4: I was going to church, I discovered a cultural exchange

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Speaker 4: program and I signed up. Most of that time was sober,

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Speaker 4: but it was an adventure, so I was constantly stimulated

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Speaker 4: with new information and it was really quite an experience.

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Speaker 4: And when I returned home once when I chose, in

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Speaker 4: my enlightened state of having been living in Europe, to

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Speaker 4: sit down with him and have this adult conversation.

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Speaker 1: When you spoke to your dad, did you ever say

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Speaker 1: why did you leave or why weren't you involved in

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Speaker 1: our childhood? I hear that you asked for his life story.

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Speaker 1: But did you ever ask him directly about the relationship

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Speaker 1: with you?

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Speaker 4: I don't think I did, now that you say it

259
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Speaker 4: that way. He's deceased, and you know, the story actually

260
00:16:13,719 --> 00:16:17,639
Speaker 4: gets even more bizarre because my first attempt at sobriety,

261
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Speaker 4: my brother told me that he wasn't really my father,

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Speaker 4: that my stepfather was my father. I was thirty some

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Speaker 4: years old. It was the first I ever had ever

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Speaker 4: heard that, So that set me into a little bit

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Speaker 4: of a tailspin. And when I tried to verify this

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Speaker 4: information with my mother, she said she didn't know.

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Speaker 3: We haven't heard about the stepfather. So when did he

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Speaker 3: come into the picture.

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Speaker 4: He came into the picture around the age of twelve

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Speaker 4: or thirteen. He wasn't a nice person. He ended up

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Speaker 4: kicking my older sister out of the house.

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Speaker 1: For what reason.

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Speaker 4: I think they just didn't get along. She had a

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Speaker 4: very strong personality. I think she felt like my mother

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Speaker 4: chose him over her, so she became angry and chose

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Speaker 4: to leave at age six.

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Speaker 3: Your stepdad was in your life for how long?

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Speaker 4: Probably five years. It's a little bit blurry, but if

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Speaker 4: indeed he was the father, would have happened out of wedlock.

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Speaker 4: You know way before.

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Speaker 3: And when your mom says she doesn't know, it's because

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Speaker 3: she truly doesn't know. It's possible that she had been

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Speaker 3: sleeping with him before you were born, but she just

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Speaker 3: truly doesn't know.

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Speaker 4: Correct, It's okay now, I mean they're both dead. I

286
00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,639
Speaker 4: struggled with it for a little while, but it really

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Speaker 4: doesn't matter. Now.

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Speaker 1: When you say it doesn't matter, can you say more

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Speaker 1: about that?

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Speaker 4: Sure?

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Speaker 1: I have.

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Speaker 4: Worked through the emotions that are normally attached to who

293
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Speaker 4: a father might be. I've also worked through like if

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Speaker 4: I had any health issues, you know who that would be.

295
00:18:05,839 --> 00:18:09,799
Speaker 4: I've worked through things like I can't do a DNA

296
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Speaker 4: to find out for sure, and through a twelve step program.

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Speaker 4: I've worked through resentment. I've worked through anger, and there's

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Speaker 4: some sadness, but I don't live in that. So it's

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Speaker 4: just the knowledge that one of these two people were

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Speaker 4: my biological father, and I didn't care for much of

301
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Speaker 4: either of them. So what difference does it make? I

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Speaker 4: make my own family tell us about that. Well. I

303
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Speaker 4: have some people close to me that I consider to

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Speaker 4: be family, and most of that has come from sobriety,

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Speaker 4: being a part of a group, being involved with people

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Speaker 4: who have suffered as I have, who put themselves through

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Speaker 4: horrible addictions and come out the other side. So that's

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Speaker 4: what I consider family.

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting here thinking about your feeling that it doesn't

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Speaker 1: really matter who your father was. And one of the

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Speaker 1: things that we see a lot with addiction is that

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Speaker 1: there are these secrets in the family. There's this toxicity

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Speaker 1: around a secret floating in the air that the child

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Speaker 1: somehow perceives but doesn't know what it is. Something just

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Speaker 1: feels not right and it isn't even maybe in their awareness,

316
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Speaker 1: but there's also an inherent internal sense of disconnection when

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Speaker 1: you feel like there's something about this family that's off,

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Speaker 1: there's something in the air here. And so as an adult,

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Speaker 1: I understand that you've worked through a lot of maybe resentment, betrayal, anxiety, anger, sadness,

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Speaker 1: whatever you might have been feeling around it. But I

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Speaker 1: just want to put out there that maybe there's more

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Speaker 1: to do there.

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Speaker 4: There could be. I mean, I have to admit there

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Speaker 4: could be.

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Speaker 1: Because your mother's still alive, right, Yeah, have you ever

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00:20:05,559 --> 00:20:06,519
Speaker 1: thought about that at all?

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Speaker 4: She's ninety two. She is actually an active alcoholic. She's

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Speaker 4: very frail, She's like ninety pounds. She hardly eats. So

329
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Speaker 4: when I say that getting to the bottom of knowing

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Speaker 4: who my father actually is, it is not worth knowing

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Speaker 4: that in comparison to any pain that I would cause

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Speaker 4: her by trying to pry it out of her or something.

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Speaker 4: Does that make sense?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So how bad did things get before you became sober?

335
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Speaker 3: What was that turning point for you? At the bottom?

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Speaker 4: I began using ivy needles and I did it for

337
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Speaker 4: fifteen years, and you know, cocaine. Luckily I never had

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Speaker 4: a taste for opiates. I probably would be dead. I

339
00:21:06,079 --> 00:21:10,519
Speaker 4: tried to get sober several times where I would manage

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Speaker 4: to get six months or a year. And the last

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Speaker 4: time that I used was twenty twelve, and it was

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Speaker 4: with ivy needles and cocaine and I was at a

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Speaker 4: person's home in the city. It got to the point

344
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Speaker 4: where I was bankrupt spiritually, mentally, physically, financially. I tended

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Speaker 4: to go back to school at that time, though it

346
00:21:36,039 --> 00:21:39,839
Speaker 4: didn't work out because I did have a cocurring disorder.

347
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Speaker 4: I had depression anxiety, but I also had a significant

348
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Speaker 4: substance use disorder. And it is secretive people who are

349
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Speaker 4: in active use do have a tendency to minimize the

350
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Speaker 4: severity of their addictions, and I was really good at that,

351
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Speaker 4: so I knew how to cover my tracks, both literally

352
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Speaker 4: and figuratively. Because using needles, you know, I had collapsed veins.

353
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Speaker 5: I had started shooting and using the needles in different

354
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Speaker 5: places that wouldn't be visible, anything to minimize the severity

355
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Speaker 5: of the addiction.

356
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Speaker 1: You were talking about how secretive this was. Were you

357
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Speaker 1: doing this alone? And how are you getting the.

358
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Speaker 4: Drugs I was stealing?

359
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Speaker 1: And what were you stealing.

360
00:22:35,719 --> 00:22:40,999
Speaker 4: I would go into different stores, department stores, grocery stores,

361
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Speaker 4: take things that I knew I could either pawn or

362
00:22:46,759 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 4: sell directly to people, or trade so that I could

363
00:22:52,919 --> 00:22:56,719
Speaker 4: get the drugs that I needed. My mental health had deteriorated.

364
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,319
Speaker 4: Of course, when you're in active use, the best antidepressants

365
00:23:01,399 --> 00:23:04,079
Speaker 4: are not going to work. I got to a point

366
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Speaker 4: where I was trading sex for drugs I would beg

367
00:23:09,039 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 4: for or alcohol. There was a particular bar that I

368
00:23:12,719 --> 00:23:16,039
Speaker 4: went to all the time and scrape up enough to

369
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Speaker 4: get a drink and then try and find somebody with drugs.

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Speaker 3: There was something different about this last time around where

371
00:23:22,959 --> 00:23:26,839
Speaker 3: you finally did get sober. But I'm curious about what

372
00:23:26,919 --> 00:23:29,799
Speaker 3: was different about this rock button, because usually there's several

373
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Speaker 3: rock buttons that you have to get to before one

374
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Speaker 3: of them actually is.

375
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Speaker 4: I said, I would never use needles, and then I did.

376
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Speaker 4: I would never sell myself on the street in order

377
00:23:42,839 --> 00:23:45,839
Speaker 4: to get drugs, and then I did, I would never

378
00:23:46,079 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 4: steal from a friend, and then I did. That's the

379
00:23:51,679 --> 00:23:56,319
Speaker 4: power of the obsession and compulsion of addiction, that you

380
00:23:57,039 --> 00:24:00,999
Speaker 4: continue to do things that are completely against what you

381
00:24:01,039 --> 00:24:05,759
Speaker 4: think your morals are. I had dabbled in recovery, and

382
00:24:05,839 --> 00:24:08,079
Speaker 4: so I had a taste of what it was like

383
00:24:08,279 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 4: to live without substances, and I watched other people living

384
00:24:14,719 --> 00:24:19,439
Speaker 4: their life and laughing and be happy, and knowing that

385
00:24:19,679 --> 00:24:23,759
Speaker 4: if I could somehow get over this hump, I could

386
00:24:23,799 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 4: have that.

387
00:24:24,999 --> 00:24:28,519
Speaker 3: I understand that the periods of sobriety were very short, right,

388
00:24:28,719 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 3: But were you able in moments to craft an image

389
00:24:33,399 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 3: of what true sobriety would look like for you? Were

390
00:24:38,159 --> 00:24:40,319
Speaker 3: you able to imagine because you said, oh, I saw

391
00:24:40,319 --> 00:24:42,719
Speaker 3: people laugh and have fun and be happy, and I thought,

392
00:24:42,759 --> 00:24:45,239
Speaker 3: I want that others who were able to really have

393
00:24:45,279 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 3: a vision of what life could be like for you.

394
00:24:47,479 --> 00:24:49,559
Speaker 3: But how did you see yourself. What was that woman

395
00:24:49,639 --> 00:24:50,239
Speaker 3: you were meant to be?

396
00:24:51,199 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 4: I saw her as educated, spiritual, connected to others, healthy

397
00:24:59,879 --> 00:25:04,799
Speaker 4: both physically and mentally, somebody that was able to be

398
00:25:04,879 --> 00:25:11,719
Speaker 4: calm and be happy living life on life. So if

399
00:25:11,759 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 4: adversity came my way, I was going to be able

400
00:25:13,959 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 4: to handle that. If I had to step up and

401
00:25:18,439 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 4: be accountable for my behavior, I was able to do that.

402
00:25:23,759 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 3: And if we go through that checklist and look at

403
00:25:27,279 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 3: your current life, you're educated, obviously, he care about others.

404
00:25:33,399 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 3: What are the items on that list that are not

405
00:25:36,319 --> 00:25:38,999
Speaker 3: as strong as they should be right now?

406
00:25:39,319 --> 00:25:45,279
Speaker 4: I think intimate relationships. I see someone that lives about

407
00:25:45,759 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 4: one hundred and fifty miles away from where I am,

408
00:25:48,999 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 4: and I see him occasionally. I don't have real strong,

409
00:25:54,639 --> 00:25:59,239
Speaker 4: intimate close friends, and that's the area that I would

410
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 4: really like to improve. I think the rest of what

411
00:26:02,559 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 4: I discussed I have taken on and developed, including a

412
00:26:06,959 --> 00:26:09,959
Speaker 4: work ethic, over the last night years.

413
00:26:10,959 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 3: So given that context, tell us a little bit about

414
00:26:13,479 --> 00:26:16,559
Speaker 3: the shopping how bad that gets when it happens.

415
00:26:16,919 --> 00:26:20,319
Speaker 4: In the last couple of years, I've recognized I have

416
00:26:20,759 --> 00:26:26,999
Speaker 4: an imposter syndrome. So I've developed a counselor position for

417
00:26:27,079 --> 00:26:30,799
Speaker 4: drugs and alcohol. I work with clients every day, and

418
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,079
Speaker 4: I started by going to a community college and finishing

419
00:26:36,079 --> 00:26:40,519
Speaker 4: a two year degree. Then I chose to follow a

420
00:26:40,599 --> 00:26:45,239
Speaker 4: local college in getting a four year degree in addictions counseling.

421
00:26:46,479 --> 00:26:51,239
Speaker 4: I then developed this master's degree and I'm currently working

422
00:26:51,799 --> 00:26:56,319
Speaker 4: towards co occurring counseling to work with both mental health

423
00:26:56,839 --> 00:27:01,479
Speaker 4: and substance use disorder. In the process of this, I

424
00:27:01,639 --> 00:27:07,279
Speaker 4: developed anxiety. I've realized that I've been struggling for the

425
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,479
Speaker 4: last year and a half in getting school work done.

426
00:27:11,679 --> 00:27:14,759
Speaker 4: Part of this is COVID. That everything has gone to

427
00:27:14,959 --> 00:27:20,079
Speaker 4: zoom or online, so I don't have interactions with professors,

428
00:27:20,439 --> 00:27:25,599
Speaker 4: my cohort. It's all via zoom. So I feel alone

429
00:27:26,479 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 4: a lot, and it has transformed into a shopping addiction.

430
00:27:31,959 --> 00:27:34,719
Speaker 4: There's no way I'm going to return to using drugs

431
00:27:34,799 --> 00:27:40,999
Speaker 4: or alcohol. However, that thinking is still there, so instead

432
00:27:40,999 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 4: of writing my paper, I would find myself going on

433
00:27:46,719 --> 00:27:51,559
Speaker 4: to my favorite shopping site and I need to read

434
00:27:51,599 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 4: this difficult material and answer some discussion questions with my

435
00:27:57,199 --> 00:28:00,999
Speaker 4: cohort from my college, and I realized I was trying

436
00:28:01,039 --> 00:28:06,199
Speaker 4: to find some peace in material things, And that's when

437
00:28:06,879 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 4: I recently come to realize that it's stemmed back from

438
00:28:09,919 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 4: the farmhouses, you know, fifty years ago, that idea of

439
00:28:16,479 --> 00:28:21,479
Speaker 4: having fun and taking something, so along with the impostor syndrome,

440
00:28:21,799 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 4: which is basically feeling like I don't deserve to be

441
00:28:24,879 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 4: where I'm at. And I have the education, I have

442
00:28:28,199 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 4: the ability, I have really positive feedback for the work

443
00:28:33,439 --> 00:28:36,279
Speaker 4: that I do. But how can I be a counselor

444
00:28:36,479 --> 00:28:38,559
Speaker 4: you're just a drug addict?

445
00:28:40,279 --> 00:28:43,039
Speaker 1: Is this a secret? Right now? Are we the only

446
00:28:43,079 --> 00:28:45,319
Speaker 1: people who knows this about your shopping addiction?

447
00:28:45,439 --> 00:28:48,359
Speaker 4: Okay, the shopping part, yes, Okay, I have not.

448
00:28:48,399 --> 00:28:52,759
Speaker 1: Okay because all right, because when we talk about shame again,

449
00:28:53,239 --> 00:28:55,159
Speaker 1: there's that shame and you were talking about it with

450
00:28:55,199 --> 00:28:58,839
Speaker 1: your earlier addiction around the secrecy and the shame and

451
00:28:58,879 --> 00:29:02,239
Speaker 1: the ways that people try to hide this because of

452
00:29:02,239 --> 00:29:02,679
Speaker 1: the shame.

453
00:29:03,359 --> 00:29:07,119
Speaker 4: Absolutely the material items that I purchase at the time,

454
00:29:08,119 --> 00:29:11,319
Speaker 4: there's a relief when I cross by.

455
00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:13,879
Speaker 1: What happens when the package arrives when like it? Do

456
00:29:13,879 --> 00:29:16,119
Speaker 1: you feel horrible or do you feel excited when you

457
00:29:16,399 --> 00:29:17,879
Speaker 1: when you see the package at your doorstep?

458
00:29:18,679 --> 00:29:23,279
Speaker 4: It used to be excitement. Now it's like another fucking package.

459
00:29:23,839 --> 00:29:28,119
Speaker 4: What's going on before COVID? Would you go to meetings

460
00:29:28,159 --> 00:29:32,719
Speaker 4: in person? And how often I would typically go two

461
00:29:32,719 --> 00:29:34,079
Speaker 4: to three times a week.

462
00:29:35,919 --> 00:29:38,079
Speaker 3: And then it was Zoom for a while, I'm assuming

463
00:29:38,239 --> 00:29:38,959
Speaker 3: or still.

464
00:29:39,119 --> 00:29:42,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I didn't participate much with that, I into

465
00:29:42,799 --> 00:29:44,799
Speaker 4: any Zoom meetings.

466
00:29:45,079 --> 00:29:51,039
Speaker 3: Because there's a rough overlap in time between COVID and

467
00:29:51,119 --> 00:29:56,239
Speaker 3: between when the shopping purchasing accelerated. And what we know

468
00:29:56,599 --> 00:30:00,879
Speaker 3: about a lot of addictions is that this issue of

469
00:30:00,879 --> 00:30:05,679
Speaker 3: disconnection is alurting behind them. And you said that of

470
00:30:05,759 --> 00:30:07,479
Speaker 3: the list of all the things I wanted to be

471
00:30:07,559 --> 00:30:09,759
Speaker 3: and fix in my life, that one I have quite

472
00:30:09,839 --> 00:30:13,479
Speaker 3: probably fixed as intimacy yet but I think it's connection

473
00:30:13,999 --> 00:30:18,159
Speaker 3: more broadly, to be honest with you, And there are

474
00:30:18,319 --> 00:30:22,279
Speaker 3: things we called soft ties and strong ties. Soft ties

475
00:30:22,399 --> 00:30:26,399
Speaker 3: are more casual acquaintances. But when there's a lot of them,

476
00:30:26,599 --> 00:30:28,359
Speaker 3: when there's a lot of people that say hello to

477
00:30:28,399 --> 00:30:30,719
Speaker 3: you when you walk into a meeting or when you

478
00:30:30,759 --> 00:30:32,559
Speaker 3: go to the grocery store because they know you there,

479
00:30:32,639 --> 00:30:36,199
Speaker 3: it can add up and make people feel more connected.

480
00:30:37,039 --> 00:30:38,999
Speaker 3: And when you don't go to meetings and you stop

481
00:30:39,039 --> 00:30:42,759
Speaker 3: that all together, and you don't have a strong intimate

482
00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:45,079
Speaker 3: bond with one other person you said you'd meet only

483
00:30:45,119 --> 00:30:49,039
Speaker 3: occasionally with this person who's, however, many miles away. It

484
00:30:49,119 --> 00:30:51,719
Speaker 3: can leave you feeling very disconnected because a lot of

485
00:30:51,759 --> 00:30:55,679
Speaker 3: those softer ties that kept you feeling connected, kept you

486
00:30:55,759 --> 00:30:59,919
Speaker 3: feeling a part of go away, and then you feel

487
00:31:00,079 --> 00:31:03,319
Speaker 3: very much not a part of And that's when some

488
00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:06,479
Speaker 3: of the old behaviors started to come back. And I'm

489
00:31:06,519 --> 00:31:08,079
Speaker 3: wondering if you notice that.

490
00:31:08,359 --> 00:31:14,079
Speaker 4: Timing absolutely, and especially with explaining it that well. I

491
00:31:14,119 --> 00:31:18,719
Speaker 4: think it accelerated over the last year. And also my

492
00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:21,719
Speaker 4: schoolwork has suffered. It's supposed to be done with my

493
00:31:21,759 --> 00:31:23,999
Speaker 4: master's by the end of next year or at this

494
00:31:24,119 --> 00:31:26,599
Speaker 4: time next year. The way it's looking, I'll have to

495
00:31:26,599 --> 00:31:30,959
Speaker 4: either withdraw or find another way because I had to

496
00:31:30,999 --> 00:31:35,719
Speaker 4: take incompletes, so I developed the anxiety symptoms of the

497
00:31:35,759 --> 00:31:37,839
Speaker 4: physical symptoms within my chest.

498
00:31:38,039 --> 00:31:40,479
Speaker 1: I think that the paradox of getting sober is that

499
00:31:40,559 --> 00:31:44,199
Speaker 1: once you start to realize what is possible in your life.

500
00:31:44,439 --> 00:31:46,519
Speaker 1: First of all, there's a lot of grief for all

501
00:31:46,559 --> 00:31:47,439
Speaker 1: the lost years.

502
00:31:47,919 --> 00:31:52,359
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yes, definitely, I have a lot of.

503
00:31:52,319 --> 00:31:56,839
Speaker 1: That, right And usually it starts in childhood because you

504
00:31:56,879 --> 00:32:01,039
Speaker 1: didn't have necessarily the kinds of connections and love that

505
00:32:01,079 --> 00:32:04,439
Speaker 1: you wanted in childhood. Even if your mother loved you,

506
00:32:04,439 --> 00:32:05,439
Speaker 1: you felt very alone.

507
00:32:05,719 --> 00:32:08,599
Speaker 4: Yep. And I didn't recognize it as that, but that's

508
00:32:08,599 --> 00:32:09,919
Speaker 4: what it was, right.

509
00:32:09,999 --> 00:32:12,079
Speaker 1: And then the lost years when you're using and you're

510
00:32:12,119 --> 00:32:14,559
Speaker 1: not connected in the world, you're in that world of

511
00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:17,839
Speaker 1: just I need the next fix. And so then when

512
00:32:17,839 --> 00:32:20,159
Speaker 1: you come out of it, when you're sober, you start

513
00:32:20,199 --> 00:32:25,199
Speaker 1: to realize how important connection is. And there's also a

514
00:32:25,239 --> 00:32:28,519
Speaker 1: fear of connection. So those two things happen at once

515
00:32:28,719 --> 00:32:32,039
Speaker 1: of I really want connection, this is really important, and

516
00:32:32,999 --> 00:32:35,239
Speaker 1: I'm not sure A I know how to do it,

517
00:32:35,439 --> 00:32:37,239
Speaker 1: or B that I deserve it.

518
00:32:38,719 --> 00:32:43,319
Speaker 4: Oh, definitely. The main part of that is this idea

519
00:32:43,439 --> 00:32:48,399
Speaker 4: that I don't deserve connection, or when I make a connection,

520
00:32:48,519 --> 00:32:51,399
Speaker 4: it was so scary to be connected with somebody.

521
00:32:51,679 --> 00:32:53,679
Speaker 1: There's one more thing that I'm thinking about, which is that,

522
00:32:55,199 --> 00:32:57,679
Speaker 1: in terms of the timing, you said that now you're

523
00:32:57,679 --> 00:33:01,599
Speaker 1: doing this program where you're studying addiction and its relationship

524
00:33:01,679 --> 00:33:07,039
Speaker 1: with other mood disorders like anxiety and depression, and I

525
00:33:07,079 --> 00:33:10,639
Speaker 1: wonder if that's bringing up anxiety in you, because sometimes

526
00:33:10,639 --> 00:33:15,079
Speaker 1: it's very hard to be studying something that you also

527
00:33:15,119 --> 00:33:17,199
Speaker 1: have a lot of personal experience with.

528
00:33:18,079 --> 00:33:22,559
Speaker 4: That's interesting that you should say that, because I never

529
00:33:22,599 --> 00:33:27,479
Speaker 4: really made the connection of that feeling of anxiety and

530
00:33:27,639 --> 00:33:29,559
Speaker 4: the way I know how to escape is shopping.

531
00:33:30,119 --> 00:33:35,879
Speaker 3: It's also possible that part of the imposter syndrome is

532
00:33:36,279 --> 00:33:41,479
Speaker 3: you recognizing even early on that this shopping it feels

533
00:33:41,519 --> 00:33:44,999
Speaker 3: a lot like using and I'm using it in the

534
00:33:45,079 --> 00:33:47,359
Speaker 3: same way. Part of you might be feeling, oh, and

535
00:33:47,399 --> 00:33:49,719
Speaker 3: I still have these behaviors going on. Now that's in

536
00:33:49,719 --> 00:33:52,919
Speaker 3: the shopping domain, and that might be what part of

537
00:33:52,959 --> 00:33:55,639
Speaker 3: the imposter syndrome it's also about.

538
00:33:56,279 --> 00:33:58,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have to look at that. I think the

539
00:33:58,839 --> 00:34:04,519
Speaker 4: imposter syndrome idea came in my undergrad work. Each graduation

540
00:34:04,719 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 4: I had, I physically became ill. So when I graduated

541
00:34:09,319 --> 00:34:13,599
Speaker 4: I did from college with my bachelor's degree, I got

542
00:34:13,639 --> 00:34:19,439
Speaker 4: physically sick. Emotionally I was a mess. I achieved something

543
00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:23,119
Speaker 4: that I had been striving for or fantasized about my

544
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 4: whole life, and when I got it, I want to

545
00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 4: throw up. I became so sick.

546
00:34:29,919 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 3: You know. It's one of the things that happens in

547
00:34:31,919 --> 00:34:36,039
Speaker 3: long term addiction is you really can lose the ability

548
00:34:36,079 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 3: to trust yourself because you made so many deals with

549
00:34:39,319 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 3: yourself that you've broken thousands of them. And then when

550
00:34:42,799 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 3: you achieve something, it feels like, Okay, now I can

551
00:34:45,319 --> 00:34:49,559
Speaker 3: trust myself. I've actually completed that thing, that fantasy that

552
00:34:49,599 --> 00:34:53,679
Speaker 3: I had have actually attained it. But that fear of oh,

553
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,039
Speaker 3: it can be taken away because I can screw up again.

554
00:34:56,119 --> 00:34:57,959
Speaker 3: You know, I'm trying to trust myself, but I can

555
00:34:57,999 --> 00:35:01,119
Speaker 3: slip again. That fear of this life will be taken

556
00:35:01,159 --> 00:35:04,679
Speaker 3: away from me can operate for a very very long

557
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 3: time with addiction. So when you start to achieve finally

558
00:35:09,559 --> 00:35:12,119
Speaker 3: thirty five years of fears of well, I'm going to

559
00:35:12,199 --> 00:35:15,199
Speaker 3: screw this up and mess this up, don't go away overnight.

560
00:35:15,359 --> 00:35:17,919
Speaker 3: And the more you have at stake, the greater the

561
00:35:17,959 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 3: fear is because now you actually have something to lose,

562
00:35:20,999 --> 00:35:24,879
Speaker 3: and before sobriety you really didn't have much to lose,

563
00:35:25,839 --> 00:35:28,559
Speaker 3: and now you do, and that can make the anxiety

564
00:35:28,639 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 3: grow bigger.

565
00:35:30,279 --> 00:35:34,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, it makes sense because in active use, it's like

566
00:35:34,679 --> 00:35:37,479
Speaker 4: what is there to lose? It's just about the next score.

567
00:35:38,199 --> 00:35:43,559
Speaker 4: So now living a life of integrity and responsibility and

568
00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:48,519
Speaker 4: a work ethic and making an income saving money have

569
00:35:48,559 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 4: a four to h one K. I've never had that before.

570
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,919
Speaker 4: And then to admit to a shopping addiction.

571
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: I wanted to say one more thing about this idea

572
00:35:57,799 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: of you getting physically ill when you would accomplish something

573
00:36:00,799 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: like a graduation. The other addiction that people don't talk

574
00:36:04,359 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 1: about is that people get addicted to punishing themselves. People

575
00:36:10,319 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 1: get addicted to not having People get addicted to that

576
00:36:16,039 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 1: sense of things are not going to work out for me.

577
00:36:19,679 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: That becomes something that they hold very dear, even though

578
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 1: they don't want that to happen, and so all of

579
00:36:24,799 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 1: a sudden you have to let go of that idea.

580
00:36:27,119 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 1: It's a whole self concept of going from I'm someone

581
00:36:31,959 --> 00:36:34,519
Speaker 1: for whom nothing will work out to I'm someone who

582
00:36:34,599 --> 00:36:36,039
Speaker 1: can have agency in the world.

583
00:36:37,159 --> 00:36:41,519
Speaker 4: Indeed, there's comfort in the familiarity of discomfort.

584
00:36:42,199 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: There's this saying, especially in the field of psychology, that

585
00:36:45,479 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: research is mesearch, meaning that we usually are interested in

586
00:36:51,319 --> 00:36:56,079
Speaker 1: exploring something that touches us very closely personally. So somebody

587
00:36:56,119 --> 00:36:59,159
Speaker 1: who comes from a history of substance use will become

588
00:36:59,199 --> 00:37:02,199
Speaker 1: an addiction counselor. But what you're studying now, I think

589
00:37:02,279 --> 00:37:05,919
Speaker 1: is the most tender part of something that you're still

590
00:37:05,919 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 1: trying to resolve, which is the anxiety the relationship pieces.

591
00:37:10,919 --> 00:37:13,559
Speaker 1: And so I wonder if you're avoiding doing this work

592
00:37:14,119 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 1: in a way that you didn't avoid doing the other

593
00:37:15,879 --> 00:37:20,959
Speaker 1: work because of where you are in your process of

594
00:37:21,359 --> 00:37:22,199
Speaker 1: working through it.

595
00:37:23,879 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 4: You know, there's probably some truth to that.

596
00:37:26,839 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 3: We were talking about this idea of connection and loneliness

597
00:37:30,959 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 3: and how those two things go with addiction. Very often

598
00:37:36,279 --> 00:37:41,519
Speaker 3: what happens with alcohol and substances is that, especially when

599
00:37:41,519 --> 00:37:44,479
Speaker 3: it's thirty five years of that, that's what draws the

600
00:37:44,479 --> 00:37:49,199
Speaker 3: people to one another. It's the actual glue that determines

601
00:37:49,799 --> 00:37:51,919
Speaker 3: who your people are and how close you are with

602
00:37:51,959 --> 00:37:55,119
Speaker 3: them because you're all doing the same thing substance wise.

603
00:37:55,959 --> 00:37:58,879
Speaker 3: And when that glue goes away because you become sober,

604
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:04,919
Speaker 3: you literally have to rediscover reinvent, Well, what's the glue

605
00:38:04,919 --> 00:38:06,919
Speaker 3: that I use now? How do I get close to

606
00:38:06,959 --> 00:38:12,159
Speaker 3: people now? And those skill sets that usually require very intentional,

607
00:38:12,359 --> 00:38:17,599
Speaker 3: active work to develop those muscles to connect and especially

608
00:38:17,639 --> 00:38:20,199
Speaker 3: in deeper ways with people. Do you have a sense

609
00:38:20,359 --> 00:38:23,159
Speaker 3: of whether you've developed enough of those muscles?

610
00:38:23,599 --> 00:38:28,999
Speaker 4: No, I haven't, and I have a sense of not

611
00:38:29,159 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 4: wanting to address that inability to create those relationships, to

612
00:38:35,839 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 4: create new glue. The one relationship that I have with

613
00:38:39,319 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 4: a guy, like I said, and he lives one hundred

614
00:38:41,839 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 4: and fifty miles away. We've been seeing each other on

615
00:38:44,399 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 4: and off for eleven years, and I don't have a

616
00:38:48,759 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 4: lot of interest in getting married or or moving in

617
00:38:53,839 --> 00:38:56,479
Speaker 4: with him, even I have no desire to do that.

618
00:38:57,079 --> 00:38:59,559
Speaker 1: Is that because of you don't feel that connection with him,

619
00:38:59,759 --> 00:39:01,959
Speaker 1: or you don't want that with anybody.

620
00:39:04,159 --> 00:39:06,439
Speaker 4: I don't know for sure, because I've asked myself that

621
00:39:06,959 --> 00:39:08,959
Speaker 4: what's been popping in my head as you're too old,

622
00:39:08,959 --> 00:39:10,159
Speaker 4: You're too old, you're too.

623
00:39:09,999 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 3: Old, this keeps coming up. To old to get a

624
00:39:13,439 --> 00:39:15,679
Speaker 3: degree or a tool to have a relationship. I think

625
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:17,559
Speaker 3: it's a bit of an excuse, to be honest with you.

626
00:39:17,599 --> 00:39:19,999
Speaker 3: I think you're using it as an excuse.

627
00:39:20,399 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 1: The person that you've been dating.

628
00:39:22,359 --> 00:39:24,199
Speaker 4: His name is Shane.

629
00:39:24,359 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 1: Okay, So Shane, how did you meet eleven years ago?

630
00:39:28,159 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 1: And is he wanting more or how did the two

631
00:39:30,919 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: of you talk about what you're doing with each other?

632
00:39:33,679 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 4: Well, we met online on Craigslist and it was an

633
00:39:39,879 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 4: attempt for connection on my part back then, and it

634
00:39:44,319 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 4: turned out that we were very compatible and over the

635
00:39:48,479 --> 00:39:51,599
Speaker 4: years he has been supportive. So he has seen me

636
00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:56,159
Speaker 4: in active addiction and has seen me in recovery. And

637
00:39:56,359 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 4: I recently was making a choice to end the relationship

638
00:40:02,399 --> 00:40:05,479
Speaker 4: last year right when COVID hit. It was no connection

639
00:40:05,599 --> 00:40:07,639
Speaker 4: to COVID, it just happened to be at the same time.

640
00:40:07,839 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 1: Why did you want to end the relationship? And what

641
00:40:09,879 --> 00:40:11,439
Speaker 1: is he wanting in this relationship?

642
00:40:11,959 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 4: He's wanting to get married. He is a Vietnam veteran.

643
00:40:16,439 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 4: He has some PTSD that he's never dealt with nor

644
00:40:19,919 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 4: wishes to talk about. And he wasn't willing to go

645
00:40:24,479 --> 00:40:28,999
Speaker 4: to alan On or some other kind of help for

646
00:40:29,119 --> 00:40:33,559
Speaker 4: people who are families of addicted people. And so I've tried.

647
00:40:33,639 --> 00:40:38,879
Speaker 4: I tried to have him join me at meetings, go

648
00:40:38,959 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 4: to his own meetings, and he was unwilling to do this.

649
00:40:42,399 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 4: And at that time he lived about twenty miles away.

650
00:40:45,359 --> 00:40:49,559
Speaker 4: And he then decided to get a house in the

651
00:40:49,599 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 4: northern part of the state and moved up there. And

652
00:40:53,679 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 4: it's like, fine, fuck you.

653
00:40:57,599 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 1: So you felt hurt that he didn't include you in

654
00:40:59,959 --> 00:41:01,039
Speaker 1: that decision.

655
00:41:01,159 --> 00:41:03,919
Speaker 4: Well, I think I did. The fact that he moved

656
00:41:03,919 --> 00:41:07,919
Speaker 4: so far away. Recently However, I've been talking with him again,

657
00:41:08,319 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 4: and part of that is yes, when.

658
00:41:10,519 --> 00:41:12,039
Speaker 1: He moved away, did he ever say to you, you know,

659
00:41:12,039 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 1: I moved away because I've been wanting more from this

660
00:41:14,959 --> 00:41:18,519
Speaker 1: relationship for a long time and I felt hopeless that

661
00:41:18,559 --> 00:41:19,399
Speaker 1: I would ever get it.

662
00:41:20,319 --> 00:41:23,439
Speaker 4: If he could say that, that would be awesome. He

663
00:41:23,479 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 4: doesn't have the capability of saying that.

664
00:41:25,559 --> 00:41:28,119
Speaker 1: What prevented you during this time if you felt like

665
00:41:28,159 --> 00:41:31,519
Speaker 1: this wasn't the right relationship from seeking out someone you

666
00:41:31,599 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 1: might be more compatible with.

667
00:41:33,519 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 4: I wanted to focus on school work.

668
00:41:36,519 --> 00:41:38,519
Speaker 3: Again, Hillary, we know you have to focus on your

669
00:41:38,559 --> 00:41:41,159
Speaker 3: school work, but you know people can be in school

670
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,999
Speaker 3: and also have close and intimate relationships. So we really

671
00:41:44,999 --> 00:41:48,479
Speaker 3: hope you'll continue to explore this question of intimacy. Maybe

672
00:41:48,599 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 3: just get curious about the reasons you're not pursuing it

673
00:41:51,319 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 3: and challenge yourself on those if you can. But look,

674
00:41:54,279 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 3: you told us you have to run to a group.

675
00:41:56,079 --> 00:41:58,999
Speaker 3: So one last quick question before we get to the advice.

676
00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:03,039
Speaker 3: You know there are groups for shopping addiction, and since

677
00:42:03,079 --> 00:42:06,639
Speaker 3: you're already in the twelve step system, have you considered

678
00:42:06,919 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 3: joining one of them?

679
00:42:08,479 --> 00:42:11,119
Speaker 4: I have considered it, but I haven't acted on it,

680
00:42:11,479 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 4: so I look it up. I looked it up online

681
00:42:14,599 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 4: shoppers Anonymous, and I think I'm going to because the

682
00:42:18,879 --> 00:42:21,119
Speaker 4: night before I knew I was supposed to be meeting

683
00:42:21,159 --> 00:42:22,959
Speaker 4: with you, I'm online shopping.

684
00:42:29,359 --> 00:42:33,119
Speaker 3: So Hillary, we have some advice for you. The first

685
00:42:33,119 --> 00:42:35,519
Speaker 3: thing we'd like you to do is to see if

686
00:42:35,559 --> 00:42:39,679
Speaker 3: you can cancel your credit cards and use only Apple

687
00:42:39,679 --> 00:42:44,039
Speaker 3: Pay or Samsung Pay or something that doesn't require a

688
00:42:44,079 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 3: credit card, so that it limits you in how much

689
00:42:46,759 --> 00:42:50,079
Speaker 3: you can shop online. There's a huge convenience factor here

690
00:42:50,479 --> 00:42:53,599
Speaker 3: that's making it really difficult to not do because it's

691
00:42:53,599 --> 00:42:56,199
Speaker 3: truly and everyone's trying to make this easy and one

692
00:42:56,199 --> 00:42:59,199
Speaker 3: click away. It's not so good for shopping addicts to

693
00:42:59,199 --> 00:43:01,359
Speaker 3: have one click away. So if you can put some

694
00:43:01,399 --> 00:43:03,079
Speaker 3: speed bumps in there that you would have to do

695
00:43:03,119 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 3: it in person, preferably with cash, we think that would help. Okay,

696
00:43:09,399 --> 00:43:12,039
Speaker 3: the next thing is you spoke about these struggles with

697
00:43:12,159 --> 00:43:15,199
Speaker 3: grad school, that you're having trouble staying on top of

698
00:43:15,199 --> 00:43:19,599
Speaker 3: stuff getting assignments done. Correct. Now, we are very clear

699
00:43:20,119 --> 00:43:22,599
Speaker 3: that this is not any problem to do with your

700
00:43:22,599 --> 00:43:28,159
Speaker 3: intellectual ability or your commitment to this subject matter and

701
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 3: commitment to this career. Path. There's something psychological there.

702
00:43:32,639 --> 00:43:33,159
Speaker 4: I agree.

703
00:43:33,639 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 3: Often what happens is that when you have worked so

704
00:43:38,199 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 3: hard for so long to turn your life around and

705
00:43:42,799 --> 00:43:46,119
Speaker 3: you're standing there at the end of a marathon, before

706
00:43:46,199 --> 00:43:49,199
Speaker 3: the finish line, it's can be very scaried across it

707
00:43:50,439 --> 00:43:52,879
Speaker 3: because it's the promised land, and it can feel very,

708
00:43:52,959 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 3: very scary. And what we'd like you to do is

709
00:43:57,999 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 3: a visualization exercise. Sit in a comfortable place, close your eyes,

710
00:44:03,599 --> 00:44:07,119
Speaker 3: and imagine what your life would be like in a

711
00:44:07,199 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 3: year or two once you lost that finish line, once

712
00:44:11,279 --> 00:44:15,159
Speaker 3: you've finished your degree and graduated and got your hours

713
00:44:15,199 --> 00:44:18,079
Speaker 3: in and taking care of all the other issues that

714
00:44:18,119 --> 00:44:21,199
Speaker 3: you have to take care of, and now you finally

715
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:24,199
Speaker 3: have this new life. We'd like you to really try

716
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,679
Speaker 3: and visualize what that looks like, because when you do that,

717
00:44:28,159 --> 00:44:30,479
Speaker 3: you'll see the feelings that come up, and some of

718
00:44:30,519 --> 00:44:33,159
Speaker 3: them might be excitement, but some of them might be

719
00:44:33,399 --> 00:44:38,159
Speaker 3: discomfort or anxiety because it's a very foreign land still,

720
00:44:38,599 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 3: yes it is, and we'd like you to get familiar

721
00:44:40,759 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 3: with that land. And one way to do that is

722
00:44:42,919 --> 00:44:44,999
Speaker 3: my visualizing, and we want you to do that as

723
00:44:44,999 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 3: many times as you need until you can go to

724
00:44:47,359 --> 00:44:49,679
Speaker 3: that land and feel comfortable there.

725
00:44:50,159 --> 00:44:51,519
Speaker 4: That's a great idea.

726
00:44:51,999 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 1: And related to that, we were thinking about this idea

727
00:44:54,439 --> 00:44:57,199
Speaker 1: of I don't deserve to have anything good because of

728
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:01,159
Speaker 1: what I've done and how that really sits inside of you.

729
00:45:02,119 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 1: There's a word cherophobia, which means fear of joy. Chero

730
00:45:07,919 --> 00:45:11,399
Speaker 1: meaning joy phobia, fear you never really got to have

731
00:45:11,439 --> 00:45:14,079
Speaker 1: a childhood because you turned to alcohol and drugs to

732
00:45:14,119 --> 00:45:17,599
Speaker 1: cope with your pain, and you didn't get to have

733
00:45:17,639 --> 00:45:21,439
Speaker 1: that joy that's unedited that a lot of children experience

734
00:45:21,479 --> 00:45:24,199
Speaker 1: and then they can bring into adulthood with them. So

735
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 1: we'd like you to reclaim this aspect of yourself and

736
00:45:28,399 --> 00:45:31,959
Speaker 1: do something fun that if you think about going back

737
00:45:31,999 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 1: to ten years old, what would your ten year old

738
00:45:34,959 --> 00:45:38,919
Speaker 1: self have wanted to do for fun? So this is

739
00:45:39,119 --> 00:45:43,959
Speaker 1: before the addiction started. What class or hobby or activity

740
00:45:44,839 --> 00:45:48,399
Speaker 1: would the young you be excited about? And can you

741
00:45:48,479 --> 00:45:52,079
Speaker 1: extrapolate from that and think about what you, as an

742
00:45:52,119 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 1: adult right now would find enjoyable.

743
00:45:56,159 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 4: That's a great idea. I would have to really sit

744
00:45:59,959 --> 00:46:03,879
Speaker 4: and think about that and figure out what she would.

745
00:46:03,679 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 1: Want right because you didn't really have the opportunity to

746
00:46:07,879 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 1: sit and think about what she wan would want because

747
00:46:10,279 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 1: you were really trying to manage your pain at that time.

748
00:46:14,759 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 1: But now you are right on the precipice of freedom,

749
00:46:19,439 --> 00:46:21,999
Speaker 1: and that's part of this block because you're kind of like,

750
00:46:22,079 --> 00:46:24,119
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do with this freedom. I

751
00:46:24,159 --> 00:46:27,039
Speaker 1: don't know what to do with joy. So part of

752
00:46:27,039 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 1: it is the visualization, and part of it is being

753
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,679
Speaker 1: able to say, what is this other side of me

754
00:46:33,799 --> 00:46:36,519
Speaker 1: that I can reclaim? And as you're making the list,

755
00:46:36,639 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 1: notice what feelings come up. How does it feel to you?

756
00:46:39,879 --> 00:46:42,599
Speaker 1: Do you get excited, do you get scared? And try

757
00:46:42,599 --> 00:46:45,039
Speaker 1: to hold on to the excitement part. See what it

758
00:46:45,079 --> 00:46:48,079
Speaker 1: feels like this week to embark on that process.

759
00:46:48,359 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 4: That's interesting because I've been putting off reading for pleasure

760
00:46:52,519 --> 00:46:55,959
Speaker 4: for years because in my mind it was I have

761
00:46:56,039 --> 00:47:00,119
Speaker 4: to focus on text books. So I have this stack

762
00:47:00,159 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 4: of books I want to read.

763
00:47:01,639 --> 00:47:04,119
Speaker 3: The next thing is that we would like you to

764
00:47:04,399 --> 00:47:09,199
Speaker 3: find a twilsted full shopping addiction, because you have some

765
00:47:09,479 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 3: shame around the fact that here I am I'm an

766
00:47:11,759 --> 00:47:15,519
Speaker 3: addiction counselor and here I am falling into a different

767
00:47:15,599 --> 00:47:18,679
Speaker 3: kind perhaps of addiction. And why we want you to

768
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,119
Speaker 3: go to a group because a as you know talking

769
00:47:21,159 --> 00:47:24,039
Speaker 3: about these things is a great way to take ownership

770
00:47:24,159 --> 00:47:27,199
Speaker 3: and to undo feelings of shame. But we also want

771
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:29,479
Speaker 3: you to keep in mind that the fact that you're

772
00:47:29,479 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 3: an addiction counselor does not mean that you are not

773
00:47:32,999 --> 00:47:37,119
Speaker 3: vulnerable to addictions. What it does mean is that when

774
00:47:37,199 --> 00:47:40,959
Speaker 3: you catch yourself, you have a major head start because

775
00:47:40,999 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 3: you know so much, because you deal with it. So

776
00:47:43,319 --> 00:47:45,039
Speaker 3: I want you to think of this as, oh, I

777
00:47:45,039 --> 00:47:47,999
Speaker 3: have a head start, as opposed to I've fallen behind.

778
00:47:48,519 --> 00:47:51,999
Speaker 4: Great, that makes so much sense to me. What I'm hearing,

779
00:47:52,159 --> 00:47:55,079
Speaker 4: also you say, is how I choose to think about

780
00:47:55,159 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 4: something that is going to matter and how I deal

781
00:47:57,279 --> 00:47:57,599
Speaker 4: with it.

782
00:47:58,199 --> 00:48:01,959
Speaker 1: Yes, that's right, And we have two more things for you.

783
00:48:02,359 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: We were thinking about how you were saying you felt

784
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:09,199
Speaker 1: too old to date, and what we think is that

785
00:48:09,679 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: you weren't ready to date earlier because of what you

786
00:48:12,839 --> 00:48:15,999
Speaker 1: were going through and because of all of the changes

787
00:48:16,079 --> 00:48:19,599
Speaker 1: that you've made in your life. You're finally now old

788
00:48:19,759 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: enough to date. But adult dating means doing the apps,

789
00:48:26,399 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 1: the dating sites, not Craigslist, and not hookup sites. So

790
00:48:30,279 --> 00:48:32,839
Speaker 1: we want you to get on some of these dating

791
00:48:32,959 --> 00:48:35,959
Speaker 1: apps and dating sites that are for people who are

792
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:40,959
Speaker 1: looking for a relationship and to really start from learning

793
00:48:40,999 --> 00:48:42,519
Speaker 1: about yourself in relationship.

794
00:48:44,759 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 4: I don't know that that's something I want to seek

795
00:48:46,759 --> 00:48:50,359
Speaker 4: out right now, but I understand what you're saying, and

796
00:48:51,039 --> 00:48:54,039
Speaker 4: I do think that people my age and older are

797
00:48:54,039 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 4: more interested in relationships than they are in a hookup.

798
00:48:58,039 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 1: Right And when you say you don't want to pursue

799
00:48:59,879 --> 00:49:01,439
Speaker 1: it right now, you don't have to take any of

800
00:49:01,439 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 1: this advice. But I imagine that there's some fear there.

801
00:49:05,879 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 1: And we're saying, as we see you from a very

802
00:49:08,359 --> 00:49:11,999
Speaker 1: different perspective, and you see yourself. There's a part here

803
00:49:12,279 --> 00:49:15,199
Speaker 1: of if I reveal myself to somebody, I'm not going

804
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:15,959
Speaker 1: to be lovable.

805
00:49:16,399 --> 00:49:19,559
Speaker 3: One last thing, And there's a continuation of what Laurie

806
00:49:19,799 --> 00:49:25,359
Speaker 3: just said. We do think that you don't yet see

807
00:49:25,359 --> 00:49:29,359
Speaker 3: yourself as we see you in the sense of how

808
00:49:29,399 --> 00:49:35,959
Speaker 3: remarkable your accomplishments are. Given where you came from, given

809
00:49:36,079 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 3: how long you were in that world, you have done

810
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 3: such an astonishing job of turning things around that, truly

811
00:49:45,359 --> 00:49:48,959
Speaker 3: we are so impressed by how much you've done. You

812
00:49:48,999 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 3: would like you to every day spend a moment going

813
00:49:52,399 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 3: back to a dark moment, a difficult moment and talking

814
00:49:58,159 --> 00:50:01,319
Speaker 3: to your past self and saying, and look at where

815
00:50:01,319 --> 00:50:05,439
Speaker 3: I am today. If I could travel back in time

816
00:50:05,919 --> 00:50:08,639
Speaker 3: and appear to myself in that moment with everything I

817
00:50:08,679 --> 00:50:11,039
Speaker 3: was feeling, with everything that was going on, and show

818
00:50:11,119 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 3: myself what I was able to pull off, that might

819
00:50:14,759 --> 00:50:19,599
Speaker 3: bring you more in touch with how ridiculously impressive the

820
00:50:19,639 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 3: turnaround is that you've been able to pull off.

821
00:50:22,559 --> 00:50:24,439
Speaker 4: Well, that makes sense, and I certainly have a lot

822
00:50:24,439 --> 00:50:28,359
Speaker 4: of moments to choose from.

823
00:50:28,479 --> 00:50:31,439
Speaker 1: Right It's almost like you're being visited from your future self.

824
00:50:31,679 --> 00:50:34,999
Speaker 1: So if you can go back to those moments and

825
00:50:35,039 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 1: then here you are in the future right now. And

826
00:50:37,879 --> 00:50:40,639
Speaker 1: if you could have known back then, if your future

827
00:50:40,639 --> 00:50:43,679
Speaker 1: self could have visited you and said, look where I am,

828
00:50:44,079 --> 00:50:45,399
Speaker 1: would you ever have believed it?

829
00:50:45,639 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 4: Absolutely no.

830
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:50,119
Speaker 1: So what we think you haven't really absorbed that yet though,

831
00:50:50,879 --> 00:50:53,119
Speaker 1: and we want you to make sure that you're focusing

832
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:57,039
Speaker 1: on this part of what you did and visiting your

833
00:50:57,079 --> 00:51:00,919
Speaker 1: past self and saying, wow, you know what this is

834
00:51:00,959 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 1: how things are turning out and it is amazing.

835
00:51:04,519 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 3: So we really look forward to hearing how this went

836
00:51:08,319 --> 00:51:11,359
Speaker 3: for you. Thank you so much for taking the time.

837
00:51:11,519 --> 00:51:12,399
Speaker 4: Thank you so much.

838
00:51:19,119 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 3: One thing I noticed when we were giving Hillary advice

839
00:51:22,319 --> 00:51:25,639
Speaker 3: is that she totally got what we were saying as

840
00:51:25,679 --> 00:51:28,959
Speaker 3: we were saying it, and not only she got the assignment,

841
00:51:29,079 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 3: she got oh, and this is why I think that

842
00:51:30,759 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 3: would be important, or I get why you're telling me

843
00:51:33,039 --> 00:51:35,679
Speaker 3: to do this. So I'm extremely helpful that with that

844
00:51:35,799 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 3: level of sophistication she would really be able to follow

845
00:51:38,319 --> 00:51:39,959
Speaker 3: through as much as possible with these things.

846
00:51:40,119 --> 00:51:42,119
Speaker 1: And I really agree that sometimes when people are in

847
00:51:42,119 --> 00:51:45,159
Speaker 1: this profession they feel like I should know better, But

848
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:47,959
Speaker 1: in fact she does have that head start, and I

849
00:51:47,959 --> 00:51:50,479
Speaker 1: think that's really going to help her when she tries

850
00:51:50,519 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: to do the assignment.

851
00:51:51,279 --> 00:52:02,439
Speaker 3: This week, you're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be

852
00:52:02,519 --> 00:52:16,679
Speaker 3: back after a quick break. So we heard from Hillary

853
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,239
Speaker 3: and we gave her a lot of homework, so I

854
00:52:19,279 --> 00:52:21,119
Speaker 3: am curious to see how much of it she was

855
00:52:21,159 --> 00:52:21,919
Speaker 3: able to get through.

856
00:52:22,959 --> 00:52:26,759
Speaker 4: Hi, this is Hillary. I wanted to give you a

857
00:52:26,759 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 4: little update the six items you listed. The first one

858
00:52:30,319 --> 00:52:32,639
Speaker 4: was canceled cards. I haven't done that yet, but I

859
00:52:32,639 --> 00:52:39,039
Speaker 4: did pay off a card and I have intention to

860
00:52:39,119 --> 00:52:43,399
Speaker 4: get rid of those. The second thing was to visualize

861
00:52:43,399 --> 00:52:48,399
Speaker 4: myself graduated or one to two years after and what

862
00:52:48,479 --> 00:52:54,079
Speaker 4: kind of feelings that invoked. I've actually found it relaxing

863
00:52:54,399 --> 00:52:58,559
Speaker 4: and happy. I didn't really feel the fear and anxiety.

864
00:52:59,879 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 4: The third thing was I don't deserve to have anything

865
00:53:03,359 --> 00:53:06,159
Speaker 4: good and joy and to go back to that ten

866
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:10,359
Speaker 4: year old girl. So I made a list. The first

867
00:53:10,399 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 4: thing is a metal detecting. I've always wanted to do that,

868
00:53:13,879 --> 00:53:16,519
Speaker 4: so I want to get myself, you know, a reasonably

869
00:53:16,559 --> 00:53:20,959
Speaker 4: priced metal detector and go buy the shores of some

870
00:53:21,119 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 4: lakes or find some meteorites, do some research. The second

871
00:53:25,839 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 4: thing is water skiing. Third thing is roller skating. I

872
00:53:30,359 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 4: love to roller skate. I haven't done it in years.

873
00:53:33,679 --> 00:53:38,999
Speaker 4: I love reading science fiction, so I've read dozens of

874
00:53:39,039 --> 00:53:42,599
Speaker 4: books and I have a lot waiting for me. As

875
00:53:42,639 --> 00:53:44,479
Speaker 4: far as signing up for a class, it would be

876
00:53:44,519 --> 00:53:50,439
Speaker 4: for stargazing. My local community they have community classes and

877
00:53:50,479 --> 00:53:54,399
Speaker 4: they have one on stargazing. The next thing is getting

878
00:53:54,439 --> 00:53:56,599
Speaker 4: a motorcycle that would fit me. I still have my

879
00:53:57,279 --> 00:54:02,159
Speaker 4: motorcycle license, so I'd like to get a motorcycle. A

880
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:06,999
Speaker 4: fifty five and older. Softball league is another thing I'm considering.

881
00:54:08,199 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 4: And then finally, of course, playing the drums. I always

882
00:54:11,799 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 4: wanted to do that. The fourth thing you talked about

883
00:54:15,599 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 4: was the shopping addiction groups. I signed up for Debtor's

884
00:54:21,359 --> 00:54:26,399
Speaker 4: Anonymous and Overspenders Anonymous on Facebook. I'm members of both

885
00:54:26,439 --> 00:54:31,079
Speaker 4: groups now. I did write one post, but I'm going

886
00:54:31,159 --> 00:54:36,679
Speaker 4: to look into local area face to face meetings. The

887
00:54:36,679 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 4: fifth thing was dating, something that I'm not really interested in. However,

888
00:54:42,919 --> 00:54:46,159
Speaker 4: I did fill out a form or take a personality

889
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:50,479
Speaker 4: test for a group called Silver Singles, so we'll see

890
00:54:50,479 --> 00:54:54,399
Speaker 4: what happens there. And then finally, the sixth thing is

891
00:54:55,079 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 4: talking to my past self, finding a dark moment, which

892
00:54:58,759 --> 00:55:02,639
Speaker 4: there are lots and lots, and I actually did that

893
00:55:02,879 --> 00:55:06,479
Speaker 4: first thing after I spoke with you. It was much

894
00:55:06,519 --> 00:55:09,519
Speaker 4: harder than I thought, but I'm going to continue to

895
00:55:09,559 --> 00:55:13,119
Speaker 4: do that because I think it will be healing. And then, finally,

896
00:55:13,199 --> 00:55:16,839
Speaker 4: thank you so much for this opportunity. It was really

897
00:55:17,159 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 4: more than I expected and taking the time to listen

898
00:55:21,279 --> 00:55:23,599
Speaker 4: to me, and I hope I can help somebody else

899
00:55:24,319 --> 00:55:29,879
Speaker 4: who needs recovery it works and you can make your

900
00:55:29,919 --> 00:55:31,639
Speaker 4: life better. Thank you.

901
00:55:35,599 --> 00:55:39,359
Speaker 3: I was smiling so broadly when she was mentioning the

902
00:55:39,359 --> 00:55:42,079
Speaker 3: list of things she might want to do, because they're

903
00:55:42,159 --> 00:55:45,999
Speaker 3: so different and they're so interesting. There's the metal detective stuff,

904
00:55:46,039 --> 00:55:48,839
Speaker 3: and then the water skiing and roller skating and sci

905
00:55:48,879 --> 00:55:51,919
Speaker 3: fi and take a stargazing glass and the motorcycle and

906
00:55:51,959 --> 00:55:55,479
Speaker 3: the soft body. It just was one thing after another.

907
00:55:55,559 --> 00:55:58,319
Speaker 3: So this is a woman who has so many varied

908
00:55:59,079 --> 00:56:01,879
Speaker 3: interests and such a rich inner life that it would

909
00:56:01,879 --> 00:56:06,039
Speaker 3: be amazing to see her really connect and start to

910
00:56:06,079 --> 00:56:07,999
Speaker 3: do some of these things. It was so great to

911
00:56:08,039 --> 00:56:08,639
Speaker 3: hear you, and I.

912
00:56:08,559 --> 00:56:11,639
Speaker 1: Think what it shows is that we don't actually lose

913
00:56:12,199 --> 00:56:15,919
Speaker 1: that childhood self, that that was still in there. It

914
00:56:15,999 --> 00:56:19,159
Speaker 1: was just repressed, it was buried. And when we opened

915
00:56:19,199 --> 00:56:22,119
Speaker 1: the door by simply asking a question, what would you

916
00:56:22,279 --> 00:56:25,559
Speaker 1: do if you could let yourself dream, if you could

917
00:56:26,079 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 1: be that child again, what could you do? And it

918
00:56:29,799 --> 00:56:32,239
Speaker 1: was so easy for her to do. I'm sure if

919
00:56:32,519 --> 00:56:35,039
Speaker 1: she sat down even longer, she'd probably come up with more.

920
00:56:35,079 --> 00:56:37,359
Speaker 1: She has such a rich inner life.

921
00:56:37,599 --> 00:56:39,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was amazing and it was so wonderful to

922
00:56:39,959 --> 00:56:42,639
Speaker 3: hear because she didn't lose that over the years. You know,

923
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:45,119
Speaker 3: that's still there and it's been there all along, and

924
00:56:45,159 --> 00:56:48,039
Speaker 3: now she gets to actually do something with it, which

925
00:56:48,079 --> 00:56:49,119
Speaker 3: I'm so excited for her.

926
00:56:49,199 --> 00:56:51,559
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes we need permission we need permission

927
00:56:51,599 --> 00:56:54,159
Speaker 1: to be able to say I get to have fun,

928
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:55,879
Speaker 1: I get to have joy in my life.

929
00:56:57,399 --> 00:56:59,639
Speaker 3: Which brings me to some of the stuff that she

930
00:56:59,839 --> 00:57:03,039
Speaker 3: didn't quite do, for example, the dating that she wasn't

931
00:57:03,119 --> 00:57:06,839
Speaker 3: quite ready for necessarily. However, she did sign up respond

932
00:57:06,879 --> 00:57:09,679
Speaker 3: to a personality thing for a service. But I do

933
00:57:09,759 --> 00:57:13,079
Speaker 3: hope that she gets to dating. But I certainly see

934
00:57:13,079 --> 00:57:15,999
Speaker 3: that there's a lot of other pieces of her social

935
00:57:16,079 --> 00:57:19,239
Speaker 3: and personal life and that she can work on in

936
00:57:19,279 --> 00:57:21,639
Speaker 3: the meantime that also, I think would be very meaningful.

937
00:57:21,879 --> 00:57:24,279
Speaker 1: There were two areas where she was reluctant. One was

938
00:57:24,399 --> 00:57:28,199
Speaker 1: the dating, and then with the credit cards. She paid

939
00:57:28,199 --> 00:57:32,959
Speaker 1: off a credit card, but there was the intention to

940
00:57:32,999 --> 00:57:35,519
Speaker 1: cancel the credit cards, but she didn't do that. And

941
00:57:35,559 --> 00:57:38,799
Speaker 1: so whenever there's that I intend to do this, but

942
00:57:38,839 --> 00:57:42,679
Speaker 1: you don't actually do it, it might mean that she's just

943
00:57:42,799 --> 00:57:46,199
Speaker 1: not quite ready to cut off the supply yet.

944
00:57:47,519 --> 00:57:49,559
Speaker 3: On the one hand, but what comforts me in this

945
00:57:49,759 --> 00:57:52,919
Speaker 3: very specific case is that she signed up for those

946
00:57:52,919 --> 00:57:55,919
Speaker 3: Facebook groups for death is Anonymous and over Spenders anonymous,

947
00:57:55,919 --> 00:57:58,919
Speaker 3: and is planning to go to in person meetings, which

948
00:57:58,919 --> 00:58:03,159
Speaker 3: will absolutely then help with the accountability and probably nudge

949
00:58:03,199 --> 00:58:05,879
Speaker 3: her to cancel the credit cards, but by paying off

950
00:58:05,919 --> 00:58:08,879
Speaker 3: one of the credit cards, by joining those other groups

951
00:58:08,879 --> 00:58:11,959
Speaker 3: and having accountability. She said she even made one post

952
00:58:11,999 --> 00:58:15,119
Speaker 3: on the Facebook group and hopefully getting to meetings very soon.

953
00:58:15,159 --> 00:58:18,039
Speaker 3: I really hope they'll be follow up there. But we

954
00:58:18,119 --> 00:58:21,959
Speaker 3: always think a therapist that when somebody has any kind

955
00:58:21,999 --> 00:58:25,439
Speaker 3: of addiction issue, that it's not just about deal with

956
00:58:25,479 --> 00:58:28,079
Speaker 3: the addiction, but it's about fill other voids in your

957
00:58:28,119 --> 00:58:31,839
Speaker 3: life that might be there. And so I'm really hopeful

958
00:58:31,839 --> 00:58:35,159
Speaker 3: that all this works together for her. By doing all

959
00:58:35,199 --> 00:58:38,959
Speaker 3: those things, it will help support her in backing away

960
00:58:38,999 --> 00:58:41,919
Speaker 3: from this new kind of dependency that she developed in

961
00:58:41,999 --> 00:58:42,799
Speaker 3: terms of the shopping.

962
00:58:42,879 --> 00:58:44,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do hope that she goes in person

963
00:58:44,759 --> 00:58:48,479
Speaker 1: because we know that again with addiction, connection is so important.

964
00:58:48,519 --> 00:58:50,879
Speaker 1: Having a support system is so important, And the in

965
00:58:50,999 --> 00:58:54,319
Speaker 1: person experience is going to be very different for her

966
00:58:54,759 --> 00:58:57,439
Speaker 1: than the online experience. I think both are useful in

967
00:58:57,439 --> 00:59:00,559
Speaker 1: different ways. And I also was really glad to hear

968
00:59:00,679 --> 00:59:03,839
Speaker 1: that she is able to do hard things. She said

969
00:59:03,919 --> 00:59:07,439
Speaker 1: that talking to her past self was very hard, and

970
00:59:07,519 --> 00:59:11,079
Speaker 1: yet she's optimistic that it's going to be healing for her.

971
00:59:11,199 --> 00:59:15,279
Speaker 1: So even though it's something that may create some discomfort

972
00:59:15,279 --> 00:59:18,119
Speaker 1: in her, She's more than willing to do it, and

973
00:59:18,199 --> 00:59:19,439
Speaker 1: that is a great sign.

974
00:59:20,399 --> 00:59:22,759
Speaker 3: And I have a suggestion for Hillary if she's listening,

975
00:59:22,759 --> 00:59:24,959
Speaker 3: and for other listeners if they're thinking of doing this

976
00:59:25,119 --> 00:59:27,479
Speaker 3: kind of exercise. If you start and you find that

977
00:59:27,519 --> 00:59:32,199
Speaker 3: it's triggering anxiety, to go back to specific very difficult moments,

978
00:59:32,439 --> 00:59:36,439
Speaker 3: then ease in. Start with less difficult moments, start there

979
00:59:36,479 --> 00:59:39,239
Speaker 3: and build your way up. You don't have to start

980
00:59:39,279 --> 00:59:41,919
Speaker 3: with the bleakest, darkest, the most difficult, because you don't

981
00:59:41,919 --> 00:59:45,639
Speaker 3: want to retrigger past trauma. It's fine to work your

982
00:59:45,639 --> 00:59:47,719
Speaker 3: way up to that, but to start with any low

983
00:59:47,799 --> 00:59:51,239
Speaker 3: moment and then insert that visitor from the future that's

984
00:59:51,319 --> 00:59:55,039
Speaker 3: telling that past version of yourself that I really turn

985
00:59:55,119 --> 00:59:55,679
Speaker 3: things around.

986
01:00:00,319 --> 01:00:03,199
Speaker 1: Next week, we'll be bringing you a special live episode

987
01:00:03,239 --> 01:00:05,799
Speaker 1: of Dear Therapists where we'll share how we do these

988
01:00:05,879 --> 01:00:08,759
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist sessions every week and what we're really thinking

989
01:00:08,839 --> 01:00:10,679
Speaker 1: when we're trying to help all of you through the

990
01:00:10,719 --> 01:00:11,639
Speaker 1: issues you bring us.

991
01:00:12,039 --> 01:00:14,759
Speaker 3: I literally say to myself in the head, I'm going

992
01:00:14,799 --> 01:00:16,519
Speaker 3: to do a Lori here, and then I do a

993
01:00:16,559 --> 01:00:17,799
Speaker 3: thing that I think Laurie would do.

994
01:00:18,319 --> 01:00:21,679
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995
01:00:21,919 --> 01:00:24,359
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996
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997
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998
01:00:30,239 --> 01:00:33,719
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999
01:00:34,079 --> 01:00:36,279
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1000
01:00:36,359 --> 01:00:41,519
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1001
01:00:42,039 --> 01:00:45,639
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

1002
01:00:45,679 --> 01:00:49,839
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1003
01:00:49,879 --> 01:00:53,439
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1004
01:00:53,479 --> 01:00:57,559
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric. We

1005
01:00:57,639 --> 01:00:59,599
Speaker 1: can't wait to see you at next week's session.

1006
01:00:59,879 --> 01:01:02,239
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